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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Rasins on February 02, 2018, 04:36:32 PM
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I am re-listening to Small Favor and wonder something.
Gard is the one who asks Harry to get the Wouncil to bring up an objection through the Accords.
I wonder how different things would have been if she'd have gotten Vadderung (a free-holding Lord under the Accords) to bring up the object and called upon Harry to be the Mediator instead of the Archive.
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I am re-listening to Small Favor and wonder something.
Gard is the one who asks Harry to get the Wouncil to bring up an objection through the Accords.
I wonder how different things would have been if she'd have gotten Vadderung (a free-holding Lord under the Accords) to bring up the object and called upon Harry to be the Mediator instead of the Archive.
Ive long been a little curious if she could have. I just mean that Im not clear on all the functional differences between a Freeholding Lord and an Accorded nation/organization like the Council or the various Courts. At the very least I suspect Marcone would have gotten a larger Bill for the assistance from Vadderung (based on the mention of obligation/debt during the scene in Changes).
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Ive long been a little curious if she could have. I just mean that Im not clear on all the functional differences between a Freeholding Lord and an Accorded nation/organization like the Council or the various Courts. At the very least I suspect Marcone would have gotten a larger Bill for the assistance from Vadderung (based on the mention of obligation/debt during the scene in Changes).
Of course that would have ruined the Denarians plans to get the Archive as a member. But they might have had a chance at Vadderung/Odin/Kringle.
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Of course that would have ruined the Denarians plans to get the Archive as a member. But they might have had a chance at Vadderung/Odin/Kringle.
That's sort of my point: The Denarians were somehow counting on Gard going to Harry rather than to her own Employer. She made it clear she couldnt do anything on Marcone's behalf as nobody in his organization got any sort of standing (Side: I wonder if he cold declare a standing Proxy?), so I wonder if similar legal/technical Accords issues prevented Vadderung from being a viable alternative to Harry and the Council
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Vadderung May have ordered her to leave him out of it.
Somehow then, nic expected that.
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Vadderung May have ordered her to leave him out of it.
Somehow then, nic expected that.
Precisely. So I figure either there is some known reason why he /couldnt/ offer the same aid, such as it being outside the ability of all Freeholding Lords (as an example). Or else he had some specific reason to count on Vadderung Choosing to stay out of it; which could be as simple as that being the know SOP for Monoc Securities's Contractors, or could be something for more specific to the situation and/or Vadderungs interest in Marcone himself.
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Well, I just checked the timeline and was disappointed. SM takes place late November.
I was thinking that maybe Kringle was needing to be at the North Pole supervising his manufacturers when it went down, but I imagine that happens after Thanksgiving, not before.
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Precisely. So I figure either there is some known reason why he /couldnt/ offer the same aid, such as it being outside the ability of all Freeholding Lords (as an example). Or else he had some specific reason to count on Vadderung Choosing to stay out of it; which could be as simple as that being the know SOP for Monoc Securities's Contractors, or could be something for more specific to the situation and/or Vadderungs interest in Marcone himself.
3rd option, Gard is suspect? She's around later when the coin goes missing too, her general attitude towards Choice/Hubris when Marcone exercises it in DB doesn't match up with what I expect from someone under Vadderrung... But right up with the Greek Nemesis's opinions..
One wonders why Vadderrung kept part of his mortality to be able to effect choice only to have his direct underling dislike the practice? Seems odd to me at least.
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3rd option, Gard is suspect? She's around later when the coin goes missing too, her general attitude towards Choice/Hubris when Marcone exercises it in DB doesn't match up with what I expect from someone under Vadderrung... But right up with the Greek Nemesis's opinions..
One wonders why Vadderrung kept part of his mortality to be able to effect choice only to have his direct underling dislike the practice? Seems odd to me at least.
Fair point, especially given the missing coin. Her issues with Marcone's Choice in DB never struck me as her having a problem with Marcone exercising Free Will so much as a Chooser of the Slain being made uncomfortable by her Slain-Choosing powers being foiled/circumvented.
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That's sort of my point: The Denarians were somehow counting on Gard going to Harry rather than to her own Employer. She made it clear she couldnt do anything on Marcone's behalf as nobody in his organization got any sort of standing (Side: I wonder if he cold declare a standing Proxy?), so I wonder if similar legal/technical Accords issues prevented Vadderung from being a viable alternative to Harry and the Council
Given how heavily Accords law seems to lean on the employer being responsible for the employee, Monoc as a contractor employed by Marcone probably counts as an extension of his organization in matters pertaining to him. His own hirelings probably can't file challenge on his behalf.
I doubt their plan could have been swapped on the fly to capturing Vadderung / Kringle instead of Ivy anyway. As Tessa said, the strength of the plan was attacking the child instead of the Archive. Even if Mr. Foresight walked into the trap of a meeting at all, he probably would have been just about equally effective at stalling the Denarians until the barrier wore out as Ivy was, and much less susceptible to knock-out gas.
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I'm wondering if it's maybe not so much the distinction between freeholding lords and supernatural nations, as it is pure power.
It's a bit unclear to me what the Unseelie Accords really mean in this case - but the challenge Harry levied may well have been more or less 'respond to our challenge or face war' rather than what we assume 'respond to our challenge or be in violation of the Accords'.
So, Gard might fear the Denarians could just shrug off being challenged by Monoc, feeling they could accept their emnity (and, at worst, being declared war on) while they could not afford that even with a distracted White Council (who are, notionally, the lynchpin of the supernatural balance of power). And Nick would know that and act accordingly.
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Given how heavily Accords law seems to lean on the employer being responsible for the employee, Monoc as a contractor employed by Marcone probably counts as an extension of his organization in matters pertaining to him. His own hirelings probably can't file challenge on his behalf.
I doubt their plan could have been swapped on the fly to capturing Vadderung / Kringle instead of Ivy anyway. As Tessa said, the strength of the plan was attacking the child instead of the Archive. Even if Mr. Foresight walked into the trap of a meeting at all, he probably would have been just about equally effective at stalling the Denarians until the barrier wore out as Ivy was, and much less susceptible to knock-out gas.
Your missing my point: Marcones underlings clearly did not have any status to bring a Charge on his behalf, gard basically said as much. And there is no way their plan could have been made to work for Vadderung (it was entirely planned as an attack on something in a little girl's body. My point is that they dont seem to have had any way to predict that Gard would ask Harry for help in bringing a Complaint under the Accords on Marcones behalf. If Harry could do it presumably Vaddwerung or Hades or any other Accord member that he'd been dealing with and had less antagonism toward. The Denarians were somehow Entirely certain that Gard would contact Harry and so it would be Harry Choosing the Arbiter, which in turn is how they were able to predict the Archive's involvement at all.
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Your missing my point: Marcones underlings clearly did not have any status to bring a Charge on his behalf, gard basically said as much. And there is no way their plan could have been made to work for Vadderung (it was entirely planned as an attack on something in a little girl's body. My point is that they dont seem to have had any way to predict that Gard would ask Harry for help in bringing a Complaint under the Accords on Marcones behalf. If Harry could do it presumably Vaddwerung or Hades or any other Accord member that he'd been dealing with and had less antagonism toward. The Denarians were somehow Entirely certain that Gard would contact Harry and so it would be Harry Choosing the Arbiter, which in turn is how they were able to predict the Archive's involvement at all.
Perhaps Nic knew that Mab would involve Harry, and that once Harry found out what was going on, he'd do what he did in White Night and rely on the Accords.
Vadderung may also not be able to be involved because of his dual role as Kringle. If Harry is marked as Winter's emissary, it may cause problems if another Fae gets involved, even as his Vaderrung mask.
Another possibility: Vaderrung told Gard to use Harry for the Accords so he could get acquainted with Demonreach (obviously without telling her why). Same deal with Mab. Harry's been manipulated and mind-warped a bunch in this book, and it's believable to me that several Powers are interested enough in filling the role of Warden enough that they guided Harry towards the island.
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I think a goal for Nemesis would be to get Harry to Demonreach. Demonreach needs to get activated to make it vulnerable for Cold Days Outsider attack. Nemesis wanted a Newbie Harry as Warden, one that would make a critically wrong choice in Cold Days.
The good guys had their own reasons for wanting Harry on Demonreach. So, I think both sides had the end goal of bringing Marcone and Ivy to the Island. The apparent reason for the Fallen to imprison Ivy on Demonreach was to imprison Ivy.
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Perhaps Nic knew that Mab would involve Harry, and that once Harry found out what was going on, he'd do what he did in White Night and rely on the Accords.
That's certainly possible, though it still doesnt entirely explain Mab's involvement in the first place. We can say she was just defending the Accords, but if that were the case nobody would have needed
Vadderung may also not be able to be involved because of his dual role as Kringle. If Harry is marked as Winter's emissary, it may cause problems if another Fae gets involved, even as his Vaderrung mask.
This shouldnt be an issue here, since Winter's only involvement is through Harry. Harry himself cant be the reason they had to use Harry and Not Vadderung. If they (gard/Hendricks) had just gone to Vadderung, Harry's involvement or lack thereof wouldnt have been any more restrictive than the fact that the Accords themselves are technically a Winter thing.
Another possibility: Vaderrung told Gard to use Harry for the Accords so he could get acquainted with Demonreach (obviously without telling her why). Same deal with Mab. Harry's been manipulated and mind-warped a bunch in this book, and it's believable to me that several Powers are interested enough in filling the role of Warden enough that they guided Harry towards the island.
This is always the unavoidable Fall-back: that one of the Big Players had enough foresight to use this episode to accomplish something else entirely.
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This is always the unavoidable Fall-back: that one of the Big Players had enough foresight to use this episode to accomplish something else entirely.
Yeah, I don't really like the explanation for mostly the same reasons I dislike time travel as a solution: it's too easy an explanation, and feels like a simple handwave to something that could be more.
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Yeah, I don't really like the explanation for mostly the same reasons I dislike time travel as a solution: it's too easy an explanation, and feels like a simple handwave to something that could be more.
Easy!? time travel is complicated to even ponder let alone make a logical tied together story containing it. Even Back to the Future only works with the delorian as a method to prevent paradoxal actions itself, it conserves history by action or failure of action(usually in the motor lol).
So I don't buy that time travel is easy.... go watch the Gobs of star trek episodes containing TT and come back when you can explain them all to me lol, cause i'm still scratching my head over a few.
One thing I don't think anyone's touched upon is that Anduriel was present when Gard asked Harry to intervene, ergo the plan to go after the Archive came to the forefront of their action as a direct result of pertinent intelligence gathered. That Harry himself would ask on behalf of the WC and choose an arbiter... which his message to her may have been just as easily intercepted by Nic. So the Aquarium became a set up for Ivy only as a direct result of a perceived opportunity?
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Yeah, I don't really like the explanation for mostly the same reasons I dislike time travel as a solution: it's too easy an explanation, and feels like a simple handwave to something that could be more.
Not Time Travel. While that is something we very much have to deal with (like it or not) because it's an established part of the setting. No, Im just talking about Foresight, either basic intelligence-based or in Vadderungs case Long-established Mythical Precognition.
It carries some of the same pitfalls and headaches I admit, but skips a lot of others.
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Easy!? time travel is complicated to even ponder let alone make a logical tied together story containing it. Even Back to the Future only works with the delorian as a method to prevent paradoxal actions itself, it conserves history by action or failure of action(usually in the motor lol).
So I don't buy that time travel is easy.... go watch the Gobs of star trek episodes containing TT and come back when you can explain them all to me lol, cause i'm still scratching my head over a few.
I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that the stories are easy to tell, I'm saying that time travel, as a plot device, is an easy way to handwave literally any ongoing mystery in a long-running series. Proven Guilty's hanging threads? Time travel. Who blew up Murphy's car in White Night? Time traveler. Who is Cowl? A time traveler. Hell, I remember people wondering if Harry was killed at the end of Changes by a time traveler.
The mechanics can be as complicated as you like, which can complicate the story in which it is used, or as straight forward (ish) as Bill and Ted. But you can tie up every single loose end in any story with a sci-fi or fantasy setting by applying time travel to it. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying it's easy to tell a twisty time travel story. I've done it. It's not particularly fun, and I won't be doing it again.
Not Time Travel. While that is something we very much have to deal with (like it or not) because it's an established part of the setting. No, Im just talking about Foresight, either basic intelligence-based or in Vadderungs case Long-established Mythical Precognition.
It carries some of the same pitfalls and headaches I admit, but skips a lot of others.
Yeah, I was using time travel as a comparison; I don't like foresight as an explanation for similar reasons I dislike time travel as an explanation. Most things can be explained by saying, "Well, so-and-so predicted that this was going to happen, and arranged things so that it happened a certain way." The wheels-within-wheels stuff may be a bit complex to lay out, with Batman Gambits aplenty, and it can make for some cool scenes and establishing character moments, but as an explanation to dangling plot questions, I find it lacking. It's almost a cop out in some regards.
I've also written prophesy books, and that is also something I won't be doing again. Too difficult to make it interesting when prophecy twists are so commonplace everybody looks for them the moment a prophecy is made. Most readers are savvy enough to realize that prophecies will be True From a Certain Point of View, so that twist you think is going to be awesome just falls flat. Better writers than me might be able to do something original with them, (like a prophecy bait-and-switch; you think it's about Character X, but it's really about Character Y) but I've had my fill of those types of devices for my own material. Lady in the Water tried and failed to do something like that.
Foresight isn't quite the same animal, and it's established well enough in the Dresden Files by characters like Rashid, Odin, Mab, Marcone (to an extent), Lara, and a few others I'm forgetting for it to be reasonably believable. It gives you a lot more wiggle room, since the characters aren't blatantly claiming, "X will happen," they're simply arranging pieces so that it does, and you only find out about it later. I'd still prefer a different explanation, because, again, it feels like a cop out when you discover, "Oh my stars, everything was arranged by X," or "X and Y worked together to manipulate everything and I am just a cosmic plaything."
See, the reveal about Uriel having a delicate hand in Small Favor was really effective, because it came out of freaking nowhere. Mr. Sunshine was a character who subtly shaped events in the background, and nobody would have known he was involved at all if he didn't choose to reveal himself to Harry. The twist there wasn't that Harry was manipulated, it was that there was another player not even on the board, but above it, playing a totally different game altogether.
Anywho, I'm not saying at all that Jim can't take the above things and turn them into interesting stories or incorporate them into the existing narrative in a cool way, because I have way too much respect for him as a writer and a nerd to get things right. I'm speaking in general terms, I dislike them as plot devices because, in the hands of too many, less able writers (including myself here), they simply don't work out, and I'd prefer that the overarching narrative not rely on time travel or foresight to be the primary driving force behind too many dangling threads.
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Yeah, I was using time travel as a comparison; I don't like foresight as an explanation for similar reasons I dislike time travel as an explanation. Most things can be explained by saying, "Well, so-and-so predicted that this was going to happen, and arranged things so that it happened a certain way." The wheels-within-wheels stuff may be a bit complex to lay out, with Batman Gambits aplenty, and it can make for some cool scenes and establishing character moments, but as an explanation to dangling plot questions, I find it lacking. It's almost a cop out in some regards.
I've also written prophesy books, and that is also something I won't be doing again. Too difficult to make it interesting when prophecy twists are so commonplace everybody looks for them the moment a prophecy is made. Most readers are savvy enough to realize that prophecies will be True From a Certain Point of View, so that twist you think is going to be awesome just falls flat. Better writers than me might be able to do something original with them, (like a prophecy bait-and-switch; you think it's about Character X, but it's really about Character Y) but I've had my fill of those types of devices for my own material. Lady in the Water tried and failed to do something like that.
Foresight isn't quite the same animal, and it's established well enough in the Dresden Files by characters like Rashid, Odin, Mab, Marcone (to an extent), Lara, and a few others I'm forgetting for it to be reasonably believable. It gives you a lot more wiggle room, since the characters aren't blatantly claiming, "X will happen," they're simply arranging pieces so that it does, and you only find out about it later. I'd still prefer a different explanation, because, again, it feels like a cop out when you discover, "Oh my stars, everything was arranged by X," or "X and Y worked together to manipulate everything and I am just a cosmic plaything."
See, the reveal about Uriel having a delicate hand in Small Favor was really effective, because it came out of freaking nowhere. Mr. Sunshine was a character who subtly shaped events in the background, and nobody would have known he was involved at all if he didn't choose to reveal himself to Harry. The twist there wasn't that Harry was manipulated, it was that there was another player not even on the board, but above it, playing a totally different game altogether.
Anywho, I'm not saying at all that Jim can't take the above things and turn them into interesting stories or incorporate them into the existing narrative in a cool way, because I have way too much respect for him as a writer and a nerd to get things right. I'm speaking in general terms, I dislike them as plot devices because, in the hands of too many, less able writers (including myself here), they simply don't work out, and I'd prefer that the overarching narrative not rely on time travel or foresight to be the primary driving force behind too many dangling threads.
Exceptionally well put. Awesomely done, good sir/madam!
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I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that the stories are easy to tell, I'm saying that time travel, as a plot device, is an easy way to handwave literally any ongoing mystery in a long-running series.
I consider the two one and the same, if your using a TT plot device and it is not well written into a logical set up then yea, it's easy to justify just about anything. Which is pretty much the same for anything you can guess without a logical set up though. TT is no more easy a handwaver than it is to write it in. It's either there, or it's not, it either matches one linear attempt or it's a crapshoot. The closed loop nature of the DF can be pointed to in the 'mistakes' that were caught but intentionally never changed, the dreams with Mandela effect connotations, the direct explanation in PG of how to effect TT without breaking the universe by direct paradox and choice and twinning universes.
Though I admit the conclusions from these things can vary wildly between likely and where the F did that idea come from? lol.
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Another explanation is that Harry bringing in the Archive is a best case scenario for the Nickleheads. Convincing or coercing Marcone to take up a coin may have been enough of a prize for Nic to start the operation. By kidnapping Marcone in Chicago they increased their chances to involve Harry just by Chicago being his turf. In addition though, a complaint must be lodged by an Accords member. In Chicago, as far as we know, that is Harry. By breaking the Accords and involving Mab they increased their chances of involving Harry because Mab has been known to use Harry before. The Nickleheads had a better than average chance of involving Harry in their operation by my estimate. The odds of Harry choosing Archive as the mediator are also better than average given his past history with her. Nic had a good chance of having the operation come off as it did in the book.
Now, there are a lot of moving parts in this plan and some things certainly could have happened to derail Nic's operation. However, if you start from the premise that just securing Marcone was an acceptable outcome, then it certainly lessens the overall risk and makes the plan a lot more viable because even if Harry didn't become involved or chose a different mediator the Nickleheads could have retreated to their lair with Marcone and still counted it a victory.
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Another explanation is that Harry bringing in the Archive is a best case scenario for the Nickleheads. Convincing or coercing Marcone to take up a coin may have been enough of a prize for Nic to start the operation. By kidnapping Marcone in Chicago they increased their chances to involve Harry just by Chicago being his turf. In addition though, a complaint must be lodged by an Accords member. In Chicago, as far as we know, that is Harry. By breaking the Accords and involving Mab they increased their chances of involving Harry because Mab has been known to use Harry before. The Nickleheads had a better than average chance of involving Harry in their operation by my estimate. The odds of Harry choosing Archive as the mediator are also better than average given his past history with her. Nic had a good chance of having the operation come off as it did in the book.
Now, there are a lot of moving parts in this plan and some things certainly could have happened to derail Nic's operation. However, if you start from the premise that just securing Marcone was an acceptable outcome, then it certainly lessens the overall risk and makes the plan a lot more viable because even if Harry didn't become involved or chose a different mediator the Nickleheads could have retreated to their lair with Marcone and still counted it a victory.
Hmm, so if Marcone was the base level prize and Ivy was just a possibility, it could jive. It still represents a metric f*ckton of wasted resources on a vague possibility, given that it took Lucifer Himself to fuel the huge Circles that were only needed for Ivy, a cost equivalent to having to deal with a Soul fire-empowered Dresden there-after.
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I looked it as guard would not bring her failures to the all father and make it his problem to fix.
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Someone had mentioned the death Angel as lash in ghost story.
What if uriel didn't just give Harry assistance via solitude but created something more from the lash that got wings. We know Bonnie formed from the remnants of lash but it could be possible that the shadow of lash itself got an upgrade at the end of white knight. Uriel then poured a ton of power into this lower angelic lash to form the death Angel. This would mean uriels gift to Harry isn't equal to hells donation of power but only part of uriels balancing act.
Side note: wojl: mab won big in small favor and the implication was it partly stems from predicting Harry correctly.
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Hmm, so if Marcone was the base level prize and Ivy was just a possibility, it could jive. It still represents a metric f*ckton of wasted resources on a vague possibility, given that it took Lucifer Himself to fuel the huge Circles that were only needed for Ivy, a cost equivalent to having to deal with a Soul fire-empowered Dresden there-after.
It is a huge use of resources on a lower probability plan, but the Nickleheads plan long term and seem willing to deal with failure of their plans in pursuit of their overall goal. To them, just ending up with Marcone had to have been worth breaking the Accords while possibly getting Ivy out of the deal a potential windfall.
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Fair point, especially given the missing coin. Her issues with Marcone's Choice in DB never struck me as her having a problem with Marcone exercising Free Will so much as a Chooser of the Slain being made uncomfortable by her Slain-Choosing powers being foiled/circumvented.
Gard internally: *Dammit I was supposed to recruit him. You just cost me a month's pay John*
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Chicago is Harry's town. If it happens in Chi-town, Harry will be involved. Harry is a creature of habit. His reaction to new problems is often to return to or reuse that which is most familar. In most books, after taking a hit, he tends to return home to regroup instead of hiding in the strange. Ivy was arbitrator in prior accords dispute, he has a friendly connection to Ivy, she would be on the very short list of members he would trust.
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Side note: wojl: mab won big in small favor and the implication was it partly stems from predicting Harry correctly.
I got the exact opposite implication from it, actually. That she always guesses wrong but got lucky that time.
2009 Independence signing:
The thing is that Mab never really figures Dresden quite right. She never gets it right when she tries to predict what he will do. But Small Favor turned out really well for her.
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I was thinking that it was one time in which she came closer than usual in predicting Harry correctly. (But...)
Or, the (But...) just meant she'd throw a Harry Chaos bolt and see what happens. (However, she still figures Dresden mostly right just not really quite right.)
In any event, Mab won big in Small Favor so it was likely there were big bets waged against Mab in this plot. And Harry's actions in this book compromised Mab's enemies positions.
Who was active during Small Favor
Titania
Summer
Mab
Winter
Uriel
Heaven, 3 Swords
Denarians
Denarians compromised by Nemesis
Hell (assisted Denarians who violated the Accords) (Hell I'm sure also functions to protect reality so they likely wanted to out their traitors)
Marcone and Gard
Archive
Demeter
Harry
White Council?
Black Council via Peabody via Luccio
Murphy
McAnally
Thomas
Hobs
Maeve?
Lily
Nemesis most likely appears somewhere
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Hmm, so if Marcone was the base level prize and Ivy was just a possibility, it could jive. It still represents a metric f*ckton of wasted resources on a vague possibility, given that it took Lucifer Himself to fuel the huge Circles that were only needed for Ivy, a cost equivalent to having to deal with a Soul fire-empowered Dresden there-after.
That was how I took it, anyway. They involved Lucifer for the sure grab of Marcone, a pretty good shot at involving Harry whether through his relationships with SI or Mab, and decent odds that requesting an arbitrator would be the only play available to him.
It's also important that as far as Nic's scheming goes as of SmF, he was still under the impression Lasciel's shadow was slowly working on getting Harry to fully take up the coin. For one thing, that means he couldn't have guessed Uriel would take the other side's freebie to balance Lucifer's action by granting Harry soulfire, since he thought Harry was still drawing on hellfire. Secondly, Nic very well might have been almost as happy with putting enough pressure on Harry that he had to fully give in to Lasciel in order to survive confronting her fellows as with actually getting Ivy. I doubt he would have shared with Tessa that he'd be happy to see the plan end up netting a nascent Starborn instead of the Archive, but if Lash had stayed on mission for them, it might actually have been a reachable possibility (supported by the fact that he tried to capture Harry after everything else went pear-shaped for them).
The question of Harry's eligibility for soulfire if Lash had still been there also prompts an interesting what-if. Given that Harry's access to hellfire had been via Lash' connection back to Lasciel, what would have happened if she'd survived turning on her originator instead of immediately sacrificing herself? I gather she'd lose the connection to continue giving Harry hellfire, but since soulfire comes from the caster anyway, could she granted Harry that ability? (I always figured Uriel using that as his balancing action was equivalent in acting at all, rather than energy expended) Or would Lash have been left as 'just' a cosmic storehouse of knowledge, without any hard power-ups to offer?
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See. I don't think Uriel's gambit with Harry was equal to Lucifer and Hell's actions in Small Favor, which is why I think Uriel has a long game in plan for Lash in making her into a REAL angel, say the Death Angel we see in Ghost Story that is familiar with Harry.
So, part of Lash + part of Harry=>Bonnie. part of Lash + Uriel's Investment=>Death Angel
Uriel's other balancing act was to allow Harry to tap into Soulfire, which was the other side of the same coin as Hellfire per WOJ.
IF Harry has Hellfire, he can access Soulfire. If he has access to Soulfire, he can access Hellfire.
He can't access both at same time though per WOJ.
We know Angels can use both. I don't know if mortals can. This power is the SAME COIN, however.
Uriel wants to destroy a galaxy: hellfire.
Uriel wants to create something: soulfire.
So, its like destroy vs. create; chaos vs. order.
Now if you are an angel that goes around mainly destroying everything, you aren't heaven's angel. This is all consistent I believe with WOJ.
#259 “Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”
Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are. (Emphasis added)