Also, I think Harry is missing something.(click to show/hide)
As I said in other place(click to show/hide)
I am happy with that and I am wondering if perhaps the PT would finish well after all,(click to show/hide)
Also, I think Harry is missing something.(click to show/hide)
It would make so much better a scene if Harry thinks Eb is scared of fighting magic-resistant monsters, but Eb is actually scared of the rest of the Council delegation noticing Harry can kill Outsider foot soldiers that a young wizard shouldn't have any chance against. Langtry / Mai / Cristos learning about the Starborn secret would probably have long-term Consequences.Interesting. And I am wondering how much Eb himself knows about the starborn thing.
Interesting. And I am wondering how much Eb himself knows about the starborn thing.Harry never told him as far as we know.
No, but he may know anyway. I am sure he did some research about how Harry fought an outsider before.He might not even know about that. Wizards and keeping secrets:
"Come on. I'm a wizard. We have union rules against telling anybody anything,"
No, but he may know anyway. I am sure he did some research about how Harry fought an outsider before.
I just assumed "breed a Starborn weapon" was the shady plot Maggie was working with the vampires and tried to pitch to Eb, that Ariana saw him arguing with her about and the 'what he was meant to be' that Martha Liberty and Ebenezar were talking over Harry's head about.Probably.
Probably.
But I do not think Harry told anyone in the council anything about it so Ebenezar might know more about Margaret’s purpose with Harry than Harry himself but Harry probably kept his experience with outsiders to himself.
Wizards are extremely secretive and Harry has good reasons to keep these things for himself.
However Eb did soul gaze Harry, given that and their blood relationship, he may have found outYou don't get that kind of detail with a soulgaze. You get what kind of person Harry was in some symbolic manner not a detailed history and Harry did not know HWWB was an outsider at that time, only scary demon.
about his battle with HWWB. So it may not be a secret to Eb.
But HWWB left a scar in him. Something that, I believe, could be seen in a soulgaze. And perhaps Eb knows its meaning.Perhaps. You never really know what you get with a soulgaze. But I do not think HWWB really defined who Harry is.
But HWWB left a scar in him. Something that, I believe, could be seen in a soulgaze. And perhaps Eb knows its meaning.A random guy doing Three Eye could see it in Storm Front.
A random guy doing Three Eye could see it in Storm Front.
A random guy doing Three Eye could see it in Storm Front.He saw something scary but Harry as a potential warlock is scary enough.
He saw something scary but Harry as a potential warlock is scary enough.
And the "You know ... " Says to me that this is info the whole SC possesses.I figure it's either something from his trial or something only a faction of the SC knows. But that's just my guess.
I figure it's either something from his trial or something only a faction of the SC knows. But that's just my guess.And more importantly they do not put their knowledge together. Everyones knowledge is fragmented and that means they all can go for seriously wrong conclusions. Obviously when it brings problems for Harry most.
There is a WoJ that the SC's collective knowledge covers everything about Harry. I don't recall if the WoJ was limited to Harry's past or not, but I think it was. Therefore, someone on the SC knows Harry is a starborn, and someone knows about his fight with HWWB. Those someones just might not be Eb or even the same person.
Well if Eb dies in Peace Talks, Harry gets his journals. That should prove interesting. And they go back to the original Merlin.They are probably written in old welsh so good luck reading them.
They are probably written in old welsh so good luck reading them.Bob could likely read them (AND help Harry figure out the magic).
Bob could likely read them (AND help Harry figure out the magic).
Also, insta-language is a known thing, just ask Lasciel! I wonder if Bonny might know OldWelsh? I bet Harry could get Old Welsh from Mab (but the price may be high, or have hidden catches), or from Vadderung (likely to LOOK like a high price, but not actually be a problem).
Or, hell, Eb could've decided to be easy on Harry, and create/bind a Mini-Bob OldWelsh Tutor into the first volume, or something similar... I mean, Eb could've, but Jim wouldn't!
Bob could likely read them (AND help Harry figure out the magic).Bob is not that old but he can process information a lot faster than Harry so who knows.
Also, insta-language is a known thing, just ask Lasciel! I wonder if Bonny might know OldWelsh? I bet Harry could get Old Welsh from Mab (but the price may be high, or have hidden catches), or from Vadderung (likely to LOOK like a high price, but not actually be a problem).
Or, hell, Eb could've decided to be easy on Harry, and create/bind a Mini-Bob OldWelsh Tutor into the first volume, or something similar... I mean, Eb could've, but Jim wouldn't!
Bob is not that old but he can process information a lot faster than Harry so who knows.
Bob is that old, but he no longer works for Harry.His skull is not that old. We do not really know how old Bob is.
His skull is not that old. We do not really know how old Bob is
Bob is not that old but he can process information a lot faster than Harry so who knows.Bob is just plain smarter than Harry! Though blindingly naive & ignorant in some ways.
All fast methods imply sharing the information with someone and Harry might not want to do so. He can try to learn the language but he is not a fast learner of language if his experience with latin is indicative. It will take real effort over years.
There might be tricks to speed it up if Harry is prepared to leave his body for a while and stretch subjective time the way Bob does but...
I took the time to check, and the Dresden Wiki states Bob was an air spirit before being bound to the skull, sometime in the Middle Ages. A quick look at Wikipedia suggests that Bob could know Middle Welsh. If the Journals need to be read, Jim has done the ground work to set the stage. And of course there is the old fashioned way where the intervening users marked up the journals in more recent languages.I believe that was later changed and Bob started much the same way as bonea did.
I believe that was later changed and Bob started much the same way as bonea did.I don't see this in the WoJ collection. Do you recall where you got this?
I don't see this in the WoJ collection. Do you recall where you got this?Sadly no but maybe someone else? Something about both of them are spirits of intellect and both come from someones mind.
Sadly no but maybe someone else? Something about both of them are spirits of intellect and both come from someones mind.
We don't know specifically how old Bob is. What we do know is Bob was bound to the skull by Etienne the Enchanter during the Middle Ages. So Bob is at least that old.Bob is a thousand years old, per WoJ.
I've got a theory that Bob's supernatural parent is Mab and that's in part the reason why he's so afraid of her.
Bob is a thousand years old, per WoJ.
When I hear such a round number, I usually presume some sort of rounding, that it is not exactly 1000 but approximately.
This puts Bob's birth/creation/etc remarkably close to the same timeframe Jim has alluded to before, with momentous events...
"Because I've got about six hundred years' worth of memories to sort through, and I'm exhausted," Bob said, his voice softer, as though coming from far away. "But you can be pretty sure that whoever is backing a death curse isn't real friendly."It would seem that Bob disagrees.
It would seem that Bob disagrees.
I think the quote from Blood Rites is a bit misleading because at least part of his memories are being blocked by him on orders from Harry. Those were the years when he was in Kemmler's keeping. One could argue they weren't that many in the whole of Bob's life, but at the same time it shows that Bob can be selective as to his memories.. So how much else is he forgetting on purpose? So his recall of years of memory cannot be relied on as an accurate gauge for his age.
I believe that was later changed and Bob started much the same way as bonea did.I recall this. It was something along the lines of "that's where spirits of intellect come from."
I recall this. It was something along the lines of "that's where spirits of intellect come from."Latin was the language of the church and the old empire that was gone but old welsh was actually the language of everyone on the kingdom(s) where Merlin operated.
Bob probably knows some old Celtic languages. He's quite familiar with faeries and faeries are very Celtic. Harry is friends with the king of the Welsh fairies, the Tylwyth Teg.
And who says Merlin's journals are in Welsh? If I had to bet, I'd say they were more likely in Greek or Latin. Whatever was the lingua franca of the time.
... And who says Merlin's journals are in Welsh? If I had to bet, I'd say they were more likely in Greek or Latin. Whatever was the lingua franca of the time.In the Mediterranean, sure!
old welsh was actually the language of everyone on the kingdom(s) where Merlin operated.The places Merlin is said to have operated in the books are Rome, Alexandria, under Edinburgh, and the middle of Lake Michigan.
But why would he use latin for his personal diaries?
In the Mediterranean, sure!He operated around the Mediterranean, which was the center of the White Council, which he established. Harry says something, I don't remember specifically what or when, about Merlin setting up or helping set up the Catholic Church. When did written language become a thing in Wales? I truly have no idea.
...
Folklorically, Merlin came from the people FIGHTING the Romans (and the Christian church!))
If we want to get pedantic: Old Welsh is probably too recent to be Merlin's mother tongue! ;) ...
The newly discovered documents written in Latin – which date from between AD 43 and AD 80.https://www.newscientist.com/article/2091213-britains-oldest-writing-found-buried-near-london-tube-station/#ixzz6C5aJv7nM (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2091213-britains-oldest-writing-found-buried-near-london-tube-station/#ixzz6C5aJv7nM)
Whether the Celts who lived in Britain at the time of the Roman conquest were literate isn’t known. No evidence of them writing has been found so far.Id.
However, we do know that merchants operated in Britain before the conquest, and probably communicated with the Roman empire. “So it is still technically possible that somewhere in Britain we might get a collection of earlier material,” says Birley. “But I have to say that’s extremely unlikely.”
Read Chapter Fourteen of Turn coat. If Merlin Founded the Council ...
... at least according to Jim.
Alfabet scan be adapted to write another language people probably did.When I was trying to figure out when the Welsh people (or whatever we should call the people of Wales in Merlin's time) started writing, I came across information about the origins of the written word generally. I found that the Phoenician alphabet (basically the one we use) was adopted and altered a few times until the Romans adopted and altered it and spread it across Europe. In my second link, the author is discussing "curse tablets" were written in typical Roman script in Celtic in Britain. The author argues against the academic assumption of British illiteracy.
I had an amusing thought, who knows all of mankind's languages? Ivy. Also the working assumption has been that Merlin was Welsh. Maybe the legend was, but what about the man? What if he's a time traveler? And Eb mentions that the manuscripts are fragile. Another point. Who bound them?Ivy can not tell him. The main problem with getting help from other people is that they will get the knowledge as well and Harry won't share.
Ivy can not tell him. The main problem with getting help from other people is that they will get the knowledge as well and Harry won't share.
The Archive knows what was written, it knows everything that was ever written. But whether or not it would translate for Harry through Ivy is another matter. Who knows? I can see Ivy willing to do it because she and Harry have a special bond, but there may be rules against her doing so.It is written down. Ivy knows. But beings like Ivy can not just go around and help people, that would make life too easy for everyone else.
... For all we know Alfred could translate it.
It is written down. Ivy knows. But beings like Ivy can not just go around and help people, that would make life too easy for everyone else.
Hmmm. Raises the question of how intellectus works. Could Harry take the books to the island and "just know" what information they contain...
I doubt it, remember that is why he "borrowed back" Bob, because he needed him to break downThat is a very strong argument. I had never thought of it before, and it really does weaken the idea of Intellectus if it can't provide complex information. It seems like Harry should have "just known" how the island was created. It would make for an amazing amount of knowledge about magic available to Harry when he is on the island, though it would be interesting because he wouldn't necessarily know the nuts and bolts "whys" of why things were done or how they worked because he would "just know" the results that got there.
what Alfred was trying to explain to him. If being warden on the island meant he'd just know, he wouldn't have had to do that.
Making any guesses about intellectus is not really a good game since it means exactly what Jim needs it to mean. So Alfred can speak English, which according to the book is part of his predefined vocabulary, but he was programmed by Merlin before modern English came about.
It could mean that intellectus just covers the present state of the island. That is, Harry knows where the wasp nest is now but not the location of the previous nest.
... Honestly, if he really cared, couldn't he just get exactly how many years ago merlin was on the island (each time) and for how long, etc?
It could mean that intellectus just covers the present state of the island. That is, Harry knows where the wasp nest is now but not the location of the previous nest.
Has Harry actively considered the island's history, while on the island? I have to presume that he did indeed do so in the long interval between Cold Days and Skin Game, but... that was offscreen, and we don't know what (if any) results he got. Damn that Butcher guy...
It was my impression when he brought Bob onto the island to interact with Alfred, it was basically a history lesson that Harry got.. Knowing it's history is vital to knowing how the damn thing works. Then in the year on the island that followed, Harry learned a great deal more I imagine.I got the impression that the island also gets better in comunicating with Harry over time.
@Mira @Arjan --It was also only about island related stuff.
Yes, but... none of that really speaks to the core question of whether Dresden's access to the Intellectus also gives him access to historical, non-"now" info. Most of the Cold Days info-dump via Bob was magical content (which, as I discuss above, seems explicitly excluded from the intellectus, likely for safety reasons).
He touched the first two books, very gently. “Can’t hardly read them no more, even if you can make it through the language.”
“Who wrote those two?”
“Merlin,” Ebenezar said simply. He reached past me to put his own journal back up in place. “One of these days, Hoss, I think I’ll need you to take care of these for me.”
@Mira @Arjan --
Yes, but... none of that really speaks to the core question of whether Dresden's access to the Intellectus also gives him access to historical, non-"now" info. Most of the Cold Days info-dump via Bob was magical content (which, as I discuss above, seems explicitly excluded from the intellectus, likely for safety reasons).
I reread the fight with Shagnasty last night, and when the runes light up and stop him Harry specifically wonders what they are. He does not get any intellectus download about them, so obviously there are limits about the kind of information intellectus can give him, even about things that have been part of the island for centuries.
It could mean that intellectus just covers the present state of the island. That is, Harry knows where the wasp nest is now but not the location of the previous nest.Harry knows where certain animals will be in Turn Coat. I assume that's because he knows their patterns and past.
I suspect this is intentional: the magic is described as more complex than anything Bob can even grasp; a direct grasp of this thrust into Harry's brain might break him. I assume Merlin built the intellectus effect intentionally as "covers nothing magical."I thought the intellectus was from the genus loci which Merlin didn't create. Merlin created the prison, not the island. I think there is some WoJ on point, but I'm not certain of that.
I got the impression that the island also gets better in comunicating with Harry over time.I'm fairly certain you're impression is correct.
I got the impression that the island also gets better in comunicating with Harry over time.
I'm fairly certain you're impression is correct.
But that doesn't make it all knowing, especially in things beyond the island.I certainly wasn't implying that it did.
On the other hand Merlin did create the prison, if he spoke with Alfred at the time, Alfred would understand his language.I doubt he taught Alfred to read in any case.
As an aside, either the Merlin's journals aren't the originals or they are the two oldest leather bound books in the world by about 300 years and may be the first ever leather bound books by about 100 years (based on guesses of when Merlin exited the stage).
Pretty sure we can throw most of the rules out the door when it comes to Merlin anyway as he is definitively a time traveller as demonstrated by his construction of the Demonreach prison.
Though it'd be amusing if they were illegible because of the ink Merlin used degraded over time. Preserving documents isn't always as simple as keeping them in a cool dark place. Or he spilled a drink on them once.
I've decided that Merlin"s journals are last two case files written by Harry. ;)
I'd figure metal or stone tablets would be better than clay tablets, but I don't know a whole lot about where and tear on materials over centuries. Also, disseminating the information widely is probably better than putting it on a single tablet.You can rebind a book if the old binding breaks down or is not to your taste anymore. It does not have to be the original book either. Someone might have made a copy to preserve the text. But copies create errors too.
It's probably more likely that the books are leather bound because of time travel shenanigans or because Merlin exited the stage later than we guessed instead of them being the oldest leather bound books and being the first leather bound books.
I'd figure metal or stone tablets would be better than clay tablets, but I don't know a whole lot about where and tear on materials over centuries. Also, disseminating the information widely is probably better than putting it on a single tablet.This is actually studied with respect to storage of nuclear material over the long spans required for some material to decay. In any case clay is easy to produce and easy to write on and easy to cure. It's also fairly durable, even more so if fired. Mainly it's expensive, which is why so much has been lost over time. No will to preserve. It's also why the Church was important.
... Also, disseminating the information widely is probably better than putting it on a single tablet...
You can rebind a book if the old binding breaks down or is not to your taste anymore. It does not have to be the original book either. Someone might have made a copy to preserve the text. But copies create errors too.Hadn't even considered rebinding. I'd have to know more about the history of binding to know if a pre-leather binding bound book could be rebound with leather.
If anyone is interested here is a link to a list of the worlds oldest books (https://wiganlanebooks.co.uk/blog/interesting/10-of-the-oldest-known-surviving-books-in-the-world/)Yes, please. Check out the Celtic Psalter, which is in Latin using, roughly speaking, our alphabet as an example of how incomprehensible the text likely is even if written in a language Harry is familiar with. I could catch a few words. The Nag Hammadi Library shows that my first source had leather bound books about 100 years younger than they are. It also shows what a surviving leather bound book from Merlin's day would look like without some miraculous preservation.
Merlin's secrets are probably too "sensitive" for broad dissemination. Like if DIY $50 WMD's were widely known.Yes, but if the information is worth writing down and preserving, one has to balance risks of dissemination with risks of the info being lost.
Yes, but if the information is worth writing down and preserving, one has to balance risks of dissemination with risks of the info being lost.
Simply put, the abilty to read them is inherited along with the journal.If it's anything other than some sort of magic decoder ring that gets passed down with the books, then Eb is falling down on the job. I also think the Eb quote Morris posted cuts against that interpretation.
If it's anything other than some sort of magic decoder ring that gets passed down with the books, then Eb is falling down on the job. I also think the Eb quote Morris posted cuts against that interpretation.
Nothing so obvious as a decoder ring, something passed mentally not unlike the death curse. When you inherit the journals the ability to read them suddenly enters your head. Hey if Merlin built the prison on Demonreach I wouldn't put that kind of generational spell beyond what he was capable of doing.
And if you want sudden magical access to language ... Gonna point (again) to Lash, who gave Harry access to 2 utterly dead languages (maybe could have been more, if there was a need ... ).Those languages are utterly dead now. Lasciel was around for a long time.
Those languages are utterly dead now. Lasciel was around for a long time ...But Harry wasn't. In the brief time Harry had the coin before burying it, Lasciel embedded TWO dead languages (and a bunch of other stuff!) into Harry's brain.
But Harry wasn't. In the brief time Harry had the coin before burying it, Lasciel embedded TWO dead languages (and a bunch of other stuff!) into Harry's brain.If you go that route. It means that you have to accept the power that comes with it much like Harry accepted the winter mantle. In ghost story we saw the connection between spiritual power and memories. You might say that by accepting that knowledge Harry accepted a tiny part of Lasciel.
If other beings can duplicate that, the language problem looks pretty easy to solve.
But I presume Jim will torture Harry with the solution, not render an easy one!
Those languages are utterly dead now. Lasciel was around for a long time.
But Harry wasn't. In the brief time Harry had the coin before burying it, Lasciel embedded TWO dead languages (and a bunch of other stuff!) into Harry's brain.Lasciel sent a copy, with full fidelity. Which theoretically had every language spoken. It's a good thing it was done with magic since it breaks the Universe in multiple ways.
Language doesn't die, it evolves to something else.A lot of languages are in danger of dying out now. There are people who try to help: http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/
Lasciel sent a copy, with full fidelity...
Languages die. Effort has to be made to preserve those languages which have too few speakers. And in many cases that effort isn't made. They only evolve while still being spoken or written.
No, go to the dictionary, almost all the words and their meanings have origins in older words and older meanings, which come from older words yet.. The words didn't die, they evolved..Prior to the discovery of the Rosetta Stone you wouldn't have found any ancient Egyptian at all. Nobody spoke it and nobody could read it. What your saying is only true for languages with a shared alphabet. Sometimes.
No, go to the dictionary, almost all the words and their meanings have origins in older words and older meanings, which come from older words yet.. The words didn't die, they evolved..And some branches die out. All these branches are unique languages with their own culture and stories and songs.
No, go to the dictionary, almost all the words and their meanings have origins in older words and older meanings, which come from older words yet.. The words didn't die, they evolved..
I don't think an actual "ring" or other item was meant, just a magical mechanism or method, something that could be passed on.Correct. Not that it couldn't literally be a ring. Maggie has twice used jewels/jewelry as magical means of passing knowledge on to Harry.
Forgot to mention my thoughts on Merlin.
Maybe Odin is Merlin after an ascension of some kind and that's where the Odin taught Merlin legend came from; maybe Merlin was Odin's child and Harry's ancestor; I can totally see Harry being displaced in time and becoming the original Merlin, but don't think that's how it's going to turn out; maybe Merlin shows up in the story because he never died in the first place; maybe we never find out much more.
Jim could pull any of these off really well and effectively. (Except maybe the last. I can only imagine how that could be done really poorly to just not being done).