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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: A.J.O.D. on September 19, 2010, 06:50:19 PM

Title: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: A.J.O.D. on September 19, 2010, 06:50:19 PM
so I've got a large problem on of my players want to play an Emissary of power being powered by outsiders. The idea is that he was an architect helping build a building that was going to be a gate way to summon some outsiders and something went wrong and there stuck in his body. So my first prob is this alowed and my second problem is the group has to wizards in it and one of them is a warden so what happens when a walking talking violataion of law seven is found in the group.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: babel2uk on September 19, 2010, 07:13:01 PM
Oh, in theory you can be an emmisary of power for anything. In theory, because he's an emmisary of power rather than a user of mortal magic, the White Council don't have any authority over him. That said, I really can't see the council being happy about any of their number hanging around with the guy - or the guy running around loose on his own. There are reasons why the 7th Law exists.

My guess is that either the White Council will order him killed, or they'll order him contained and brought in, or they'll order their people to cut off all ties to him. My own opinion is that you should talk to the player and point out that for a start he's potentially forcing two other players to generate new characters once his secret's found out - that's if the group doesn't immediately turn round and kill his character.

Outsiders really aren't player character material - even if they're contained in a mortal body they're going to force their emmisary to do some really really nasty things - after all they want out, and if they have to make their emmisary slaughter a school full of children and wear their skins like a suit to do so, they're not going to hesitate to do so.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Haru on September 19, 2010, 07:33:46 PM
I've had a similar idea only with a demon, but the concept might help you as well.

The character and a few friends had - by accident - summoned a demon. The character is a roleplaying geek, so he "knew" a bit about demons. He was able to bind the demon to himself, before it was able to do any harm. From that moment on, the demon and the character have become one, fighting over control of the body. The demon's agenda is destruction, and the longer he is not able to destroy or kill, the angrier and stronger he becomes. The character on the other hand is trying to keep the demon at bay, so he is directing the destructive forces of the demon in a better direction. The demon does not care what it destroys, as long as there is destruction.
I treat this as an Emissary of Power / White Court Hunger combination. Every scene that does not satisfy the demons agenda strengthens it, making it more likely to take over.
On the other hand, just killing the character would not help, because it would be a blood sacrifice to the demon, making it even stronger and helping it cross into our world entirely.

Maybe you can apply something similar to your character. The warden would not dare kill the character, because it would open the doorway for the outsider (and maybe even some of its friends) but he would constantly have to watch over him, and help him not lose control. Of course on the long run, the warden might try to get rid of the outsider for good, and if he does, he would change the characters high concept, which might not be wanted.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: A.J.O.D. on September 19, 2010, 07:34:25 PM
me and the other st have already told him this. but he still wants to try it
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: A.J.O.D. on September 19, 2010, 07:35:49 PM
thats not a bad idea. i might just use it.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: babel2uk on September 19, 2010, 07:41:47 PM
The key thing here is your own feelings as GM. Do you want this character in your group? You sound like you don't - which is fair, I wouldn't want it in my group.

One option is of course to simply say "No, pick a different character concept. It's just not going to fit into the game." I'd not feel guilty doing that - from the sounds of it the guy is perfectly happy to screw up two other players characters without batting an eye-lid.

Or you can ask the other players how they feel about it. Character creation, like City Creation is supposed to be a group thing. If the majority of the group aren't happy with the idea you can nip it in the bud right there. If they are - even after you've pointed out the potential problems for the two Wizards, then they've pretty much made their own bed. It just depends if you're going to be happy running for that character.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Lanir on September 19, 2010, 10:19:30 PM
Kind of going with babel2uk on this one. Basically what he's asking is for your whole group to deal with something that could get really, really hairy. If I were in your shoes I'd want that player to talk to me and the other players and convince us of a few things.

- Explain how and why this character concept isn't going to blow up and cause all kinds of collateral damage to the group.
- Explain what you and the other players get out of this idea. It's got too much potential to cause everyone issues to get by with just a "I think it would be cool for me to play". There are a lot of cool ideas that don't have this kind of potential for destroying your game.
- How does the player envision this group dynamic working out? And what problems do the other players see with it?
- How would the player see this character concept growing as time goes on? Is there an end goal? Any sort of premade plan for how to get there? I just mention this because it gives you ideas about how the points above will change during play.

After you discuss these points with your group, if your guy hasn't resolved all the red flags you see over these points, say no. That's why this sort of concept wouldn't fly in a lot of games. If somehow you all think it can be made to work and be fun then by all means do whatever you like. But you don't have clear, usable answers to all of these points your group is going to implode and that might not be fun for some or all of you.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: luminos on September 20, 2010, 12:19:49 AM
Outsiders are anti-reality.  Is an anti-reality PC something that your campaign is geared towards?  Or is it completely out of place? 
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: deathwombat on September 20, 2010, 03:05:43 AM
No no no and hell no.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Todjaeger on September 20, 2010, 04:11:40 AM
The idea of a character acting as an Emissary of Power for an Outsider is an interesting one, for a story.  It would be completely out of place in a DRRPG game in my opinion.  Keep in mind the 7th Law, "Never Power and Knowledge from Beyond the Outer Gates," means that the White Council is going to deal with ANY mortal using Outsider-sponsored magic with extreme prejudice.  Harry has even mentioned that too much knowledge of Outsiders, the Old Ones and the Outer Gates could be considered a 7th Law violation.

A (mortal) character with Sponsored Magic from an Outsider is an automatic violation, which would lead the nice, friendly neighborhood warden into paying a visit to give the character a haircut.  At the neck.

In short, the concept is going to do either one of two things.  1.  The Warden and/or other members of the White Council and their allies are going to be ordered to kill the character using Outsider magic, or 2.  The entire group is going to be treated as warlocks or minions of warlocks, and dealt with accordingly by the White Council and allies.

While not very much is known about what Outsiders want, they seem to be hostile to life and reality as it is known to everyone in the world and Nevernever.  In short, they are thought to want to unmake the universe.  With that in mind, virtually every member of the supernatural community, except for
(click to show/hide)
are going to want to stop/kill the group.  Either because they want to keep the Outer Gates closed, or because they want to harness the power of the Outsider(s) for themselves.

Now if the campaign is planned on being very short, and the players understand beforehand that their characters are going to get killed, the concept might be workable for a period of time.  For any sort of extended campaign, the concept is just too unworkable within the DFRPG universe.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Becq on September 20, 2010, 06:58:42 AM
It is technically true that Emissaries don't fall under the 'jurisdiction' of the White Council.  I think it's equally true that any Emissary of an Outsider power would immediately be considered one of the most extreme threats the White Council has on it's table.  Keep in mind that the Red Court is
(click to show/hide)
not under White Council jurisdiction, either...

As an aside, a realistic attempt to bring Outsiders into reality should be considered hostile to many of the other factions.  I doubt even the Denarians would appreciate such competition...

So I suppose a player who wanted his character to be Enemy #1 to everyone, including the other players, then this would be a great plan.  Briefly.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Todjaeger on September 20, 2010, 08:11:30 AM
Quote from: Becq on September 20, 2010, 06:58:42 AM
It is technically true that Emissaries don't fall under the 'jurisdiction' of the White Council.

Actually, we don't really know that or not, since we don't have a copy of the Unseelie Accords or any other sort of treaty between the different supernatural factions.  I think it is likely safe to assume that no others are signatories of the Unseelie Accords, given how hostile they seem to be towards reality.  If that is the case, then any Emissary of an Outsider would likely just be treated as a 'regular' member of whichever group they would otherwise be considered a part of.  In this case, they would likely be treated just like any other human who has some degree of talent or ability.  Which means falling under the jurisdiction of the White Council. 

The White Council's 'area of interest' seems to be mortals/humans with talent of some degree or another.  Those humans with significant amounts of talent (i.e. Wizards) are eligible for membership in the White Council, with the responsibilities and priveleges associated with membership.  For those practioners without sufficient talent (Minor Talents, Focused Practioners, etc) unless the person is a member of another group which is an Unseelie Accords signatory (Venatori Umbrorum and possibly others) then the practioner needs to abide by the Laws of Magic as dictated by the White Council, or risk being found, tried and given a 'haircut'.

As a practical matter, would an Outsider even bother having an Emissary?  They could certain want to allow people within reality access to some of the powers of an Outside since that could be used to breach the Outer Gates and otherwise cause chaos, havoc, etc.  However, the possition of Emissary implies that there would be some form of representation provided by the Emissary for the Outsider.  Given that most, if not all other factions within reality are not interested in having to fend off attacks by Outsiders intent on destroying reality, could an Emissary really 'represent' the interests of an Outsider.  And would those interests be for anything other than causing as much mayhem as possible, as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: deathwombat on September 20, 2010, 10:10:27 AM
The Gatekeeper would have stomped all over the attempt to build a Portal to summon outsiders too.
And their "emisary" Emmissary? Dang it's too early to think straight.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Wordmaker on September 21, 2010, 11:13:01 AM
The most important aspect of the Outsiders, to me, is that they are completely unknowable. Their intentions and motivations should be so beyond mortal comprehension that, at best, a mortal able to observe them would be like a moth attracted to the lightbulb in a bedroom. It would wait for the light to go on when the human enters, thinking it had some great significance, when really the human just wanted to get a clean pair of socks.

A PC being an emissary of a force so beyond our understanding would have to be a major player in that being's plans, whatever they may be. There is no way the White Council, the Denarians, the Black Court, and the Fae would not want such a person dead or permanently incapacitated.

Not to mention that, as previously said, character and city creation are group activities. The rest of the group should, unless you're playing a different style of game, at least have OOC knowledge of this, meaning this player should take the other players' wishes into consideration. Will the game be fun if the rest of the group are forced to turn on one of their own? Will it be fun if they decide to turn against their superiors and side with the Outsiders? Those questions need to be answered before anything else is done.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Becq on September 21, 2010, 07:14:14 PM
As an aside, is it possible that the player in question thinks he wants connections to Outsiders, but is really looking for more of a Nevernever-type being?  Keep in mind that in the Dresdenverse, the various Greek/Roman/Norse/etc gods and demigods, Christian demons and angels, and other such beings are considered beings of the Nevernever rather than truly 'beyond the gates'.  Perhaps he'd be happy re-writing his sponsor as a power being banished to the outer reaches of the Nevernever?
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Lanir on September 22, 2010, 02:06:14 AM
Quote from: Becq on September 21, 2010, 07:14:14 PM
As an aside, is it possible that the player in question thinks he wants connections to Outsiders, but is really looking for more of a Nevernever-type being?  Keep in mind that in the Dresdenverse, the various Greek/Roman/Norse/etc gods and demigods, Christian demons and angels, and other such beings are considered beings of the Nevernever rather than truly 'beyond the gates'.  Perhaps he'd be happy re-writing his sponsor as a power being banished to the outer reaches of the Nevernever?

You're thinking some darker power like Hel or Hades/Saturn or The Morrigan maybe? They're all pretty much just different variations on death gods or goddesses. While not being Outsiders they should all have more than enough spooky mojo to keep your guys quaking in their boots. For that matter some of them aren't all that honorable so if you're dealing with intermediaries they might not care to correct a mistaken impression that the PC is dealing with Outsiders (although I'd imagine the deities themselves would make a point of correcting you pretty harshly unless they're the trickster type... Loki or Coyote anyone?).
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Becq on September 22, 2010, 05:07:59 PM
Quote from: Lanir on September 22, 2010, 02:06:14 AM
You're thinking some darker power like Hel or Hades/Saturn or The Morrigan maybe? They're all pretty much just different variations on death gods or goddesses. While not being Outsiders they should all have more than enough spooky mojo to keep your guys quaking in their boots. For that matter some of them aren't all that honorable so if you're dealing with intermediaries they might not care to correct a mistaken impression that the PC is dealing with Outsiders (although I'd imagine the deities themselves would make a point of correcting you pretty harshly unless they're the trickster type... Loki or Coyote anyone?).
Something like that.  That way the player could have his 'bad boy' vibe, keep his general concept intact, and not be instantly broken down into his constituent molecules by the 7th Law police.  Not to say that he would be making lots of friends, but it's a middle ground.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Wordmaker on September 22, 2010, 05:33:57 PM
Sounds like a good compromise to me.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: A.J.O.D. on September 22, 2010, 06:41:37 PM
so ive taken all the advise from you guys and i think ill ask they guy to maybe be powered by a more evil or dark god. i f that wont fly with him ill just tell him to come up with something else
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: newtinmpls on January 04, 2011, 09:37:53 AM
"i think ill ask they guy to maybe be powered by a more evil or dark god. i f that wont fly with him ill just tell him to come up with something else"

Red flag city here for me. My understanding is that "outsiders" are essentially loosely based on cthulu godlings, and any emisary would be insane (at best) and not playable. Then the idea of any PC wanting to be powered by 'evil' - no, just no. I finally had to tell one potential player that he needed to find a way to be a good guy. Anti-hero, fine. Ornery as House, fine. But he could not be evil/a jerk/whatever... He left.

Dian
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: Sitrein on January 04, 2011, 12:46:39 PM
Okay so a few things. First off, it's a bitch and a half to get an actual outsider into our world. They're sealed off at the Outer Gates and guarded by the Gatekeeper (and who knows what other reality loving helpers).

Past that, let's say it did work - and don't misunderstand, I'm not saying this concept is good or even that I'd allow it in my games (I wouldn't) but just for theory's sake - so some power in the world is trying to get an outsider here through an architectural spell form. Magic on that level would almost certainly not be point and click but need some power flowing in. Let's say the Caster in question is a dark wizard of some degree who's had the outsider whispering in his mind to slowly drive him insane and thus into doing this stupid ritual.

The Nameless Architect takes the basics of the spellform and maps it out to the point that it's ready to be built. The Dark Wizard is paranoid as fuck of the wardens finding out so he makes sure that no one knows what they're building except the architect (has him sign a confidentiality agreement). I imagine this would make construction a pain but give the Dark Wizard some bonuses to resources and you're good. Money buys complexity. This makes the Nameless Architect a necessary resource as well as a threat to the paranoid Dark Wizard.

When the building is complete the dark wizard now needs to power it. The building will look harmless from the outside, masking the spellform within it. The Dark Wizard will power it with blood and does this through knocking out and tying up the 5 highest ranking people working on the building; the people who knew the most about what it was. This of course includes our hero, the Nameless Architect. Yeah, I'm going to start calling him NA and Dark Wizard DW.

He aligns the 5 people at the 5 corners of the spellform and begins the ritual killing them one by one. The Gatekeeper of course knows about what's going on (though of course not from Chronomancy because that would be illegal >>....) but can't act too directly due to paradox so has the wardens sent in at JUST the right moment to cause the spell to be interrupted in with NA and 1 other left alive. For simplicity's sake let's say they were all awake and gagged, though not blindfolded, before the spell started and NA has been trying to get free.

The spell goes BOOM! This kills the DW and perhaps sends people flying back against walls and the like. NA manages to free his hands, unties his legs and bolts. the Wardens (let's say one cracks his head open and dies or is so close to death that the other can't worry about the bolting prisoner and the still tied up prisoner while saving his brother in arms.

While the Outsider wasn't freed the gateway was opened to him enough to at least send a portion of himself into who would have been the DW but he died so it instead went to NA who had the closest personal connection to the Outsider other than DW because of the personal touches put into the spellform/building. This causes NA to take the power Demonic Co-Pilot.

Over time the Outsider's Image (OI) will tempt him and turn him but probably not "Mark" him (as with Marked by Power) because it will want to stay hidden. Because he didn't willingly do any of this he wouldn't qualify for the Lawbreaker stunt (yet) but if a warden found out about the OI, he would probably convict NA of breaking the 7th. This gives two options: take power from the OI as harry did with lash or stick with just the OI. If NA takes power then, depending on the outsider, you can go in one of two ways. Either this is primarily physical granting things like toughness (anti-magic like an outsider), Speed, Strength, Recovery, etc. or Sponsored Magic. I would simply disallow the latter right here and now because you'd have to create your own Sponsored Magic for outsiders because, no, it wouldn't be the same as hellfire or anything else for that matter. Hell, it might even be unique to this one outsider. Either way, for EVERY power granted by OI it would be a separate violation of the 7th Law and this time earning him the Lawbreaker [7th] stunt each time. I would probably also have the sponsored magic's rule with debt for every time he invoked the physical things, also.

If NA takes power from OI at all then yes, he's a Lawbreaker and the warden in the party will be REQUIRED to behead him or become a warlock himself. If NA doesn't then OI can  go by unnoticed and just provide really in-depth flavor to the story until he "comes out" to the party. By this point they will know NA, the good in him and likely hear him out. The Warden will be conflicted but likely side with NA as someone who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time - Not a Lawbreaker. Past that, he will require NA to turn himself in and thus be able to be helped by the council. The Gatekeeper will see the poor soul that is NA when this happens. He can free NA after finding out what happened (thus preventing time paradox!) by banishing the OI back beyond the gate.

The main problem with this is that that's the ONLY way I can see this working other than everyone becoming warlocks. In other words it would be STUPIDLY complex for NO GOOD GOD DAMN REASON! Simply put: Don't allow it. Why? The above.
Title: Re: I dont hav an issue i have a subscription
Post by: finnmckool on January 05, 2011, 05:22:19 AM
My only unnoted note: your friend is awesome for pulling out the sweet Ghostbusters character.

As to above cool ass story, the better way for the ritual to end and for the NA to escape is if we go a bit more Ghostbusters and the thwarted ritual destroys the hell out of the building. Then NA can escape in the rubble along with whoever the heck else you want to bring back in later.

That aside...yikes, that is a scary character concept that could get everyone killed, though I like the "If you kill me you damn us all," concept. In fact I think this makes this a nearly workable concept, though boy howdy it will truly make things Chinese interesting for the other players that's for sure, and no one is going to like him. Ever. Any time he does anything everyone clued in will wince, or reflexively go for a weapon just to be safe. My only problem with the whole thing is what the hell does God need with a starship? Seriously why the hell would an Outsider bother? But then, HWWB bothers with us all the time so... /shrug

But again...they're so alien as to be unknowable and how do you NPC that stuff? Yuck.