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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: seanham on May 16, 2022, 08:09:11 PM
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Jim has talked several times that a new adaptation may be happening (in fact in a 2021 interview he said it may be here if not for COVID). Watching Wheel of Time, Shadow and Bone, and other book to TV adaptations got me thinking; what are some things that can change in an adaptation, and what are some things that should not be changed. Keeping in mind that some things will have to be changed, it is easy to print words on a page, but it is much harder (and more expensive) to do a lot of animation or CGI. With that in mind if there is another adaptation we as fans (especially us mega-fans) need to be willing and acknowledge the need for compromise or recognize that not everything will be just like the books. Here are some of my thoughts, but looking forward to hearing what everyone's thoughts are!
Can Change:
Harry being super tall, keep him tall but does not need to be NBA tall
Details of books - setting of minor fights/conversations (can't change anything major but not everything needs to go down just as in the books)
Give some more screen time to other characters have parts of some episodes from Murphy or Eb's perspective (similar to some of the short stories, we could see how other people view Dresden)
Don't Change:
Character's backstory, first interactions, motivations
How magic looks/works
Sue coming alive in DB
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Don't Change - The general progression of the stories, the ramping-up of stakes & power-levels.
e.g. don't introduce a heavy-hitter (like a naagloshii) in episode frigging #1, where it should rip Harry apart.
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Harry’s height, you could get away with an actor 6 foot four or five and the rest is camera work to add the extra inches, that worked very well on Reacher, where they had the identical problem made worse by previous casting. My current pick would be the Succession actor Nicholas Joseph Braun, 34 and 2.01 meters tall, and clearly a good enough actor to carry a lead after working with Brian Cox.
I would have Harry doing a narration, but yes showing other characters more. Perhaps occasionally have another character doing a bit of narration to contradict Harry, like Thomas or Murphy. That worked in Young Sheldon and is a device viewer are familiar with. The early books in particular underserved characters like Murphy and Susan. Television is not first person narrative, they can be expanded without diminishing Harry.
You can’t mess around with the universe too much, it’s quite clear as the books progress that everything is connected and things have been unfolding steadily since Grave Peril.
I would bring in elements from the short stories, RPG and comics more clearly, perhaps as flashbacks.
CGI is good enough and cheap enough for effects to be books consistent, and frankly people are expecting it these days from a premium show.
It is going to have to run to the current time-line, no setting it ‘now’ it’s 2000 phones and computers and cars for the adaption of Storm Front.
People are familiar with the Multiverse, so you immediately run a la Star Wars a crawl of what leads up to Storm Front something along the lines of :
“In a universe not so very far away, mankind’s gods and monsters such as vampires and faeries co-exist in secret with humanity. A lone Wizard, and Private Investigator/Police Consultant Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, acts when supernatural forces impinge upon the the mortal world in the City of Chicago. Together with his friends and allies, mortal and supernatural, such as Leuitenant Murphy of the CYPD and Spirit of Intellect Bob the Skull, Harry Dresden acts as mankind’s champion, even though his own people, the White Council of Wizards treats him with suspicion and have him placed under a suspended death sentence for killing his former master, Justin du Morne in a life or death magical duel when Harry was a teenager after he tried to magically enthrall Harry and his tragic first love Elaine to his will.”
Cut to the Yellow pages advert
No hat.
Definitely no hat.
Did I say no hat.
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Harry’s height, you could get away with an actor 6 foot four or five and the rest is camera work to add the extra inches, that worked very well on Reacher, where they had the identical problem made worse by previous casting. My current pick would be the Succession actor Nicholas Joseph Braun, 34 and 2.01 meters tall, and clearly a good enough actor to carry a lead after working with Brian Cox.
Yeah, I don't think Harry's height is a really big issue as long as he is at least six-four or five, since he'd be seen as above average in height. My main reason for that is though Jim keeps saying Harry is six foot nine, he writes him like he is a much shorter guy of maybe six foot three or even a little shorter.
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Yeah, I don't think Harry's height is a really big issue as long as he is at least six-four or five, since he'd be seen as above average in height. My main reason for that is though Jim keeps saying Harry is six foot nine, he writes him like he is a much shorter guy of maybe six foot three or even a little shorter.
Harry's height is sort of like the inverse of Nero Wolfe's weight. Rex Stout wrote Wolfe as though his weight is this major issue. But Wolf is 270 lbs on a 5'11" frame, which isn't healthy but isn't as life constraining as depicted.
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Producer to Jim “we can make Mr Cruise look taller if he wears a hat.”
That is the deal breaker.
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Producer to Jim “we can make Mr Cruise look taller if he wears a hat.”
That is the deal breaker.
A hat will only take you so far, you cannot make a five foot nine guy look six foot nine with a hat...He'd look like "The Cat in the Hat.." ::)
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Tom Cruise wishes he was 5 foot nine. He should try out for Toot.
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Tom Cruise wishes he was 5 foot nine. He should try out for Toot.
Don't know if you remember Alan Ladd? He was so short he had to stand on a box for love scenes..
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Yes but the box wasn’t in shot. Maybe the could CGI him like in the Lord of the Rings, or have special props built like a 5/6 size Blue Beetle, or cast a Chihihua as Mouse. Or a normal sized cat as Mister, and just say he is a huge 30 pound tomcat.
The adaption does have to have Mister and Mouse
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Tom Cruise wishes he was 5 foot nine. He should try out for Toot.
Anyone other than Gerard Butler wouldn't be appropriate for Toot. But he needs to get back in shape.
There's going to be some questionable casting choices. Christina Hendricks as Charity would be possible, but there's not a highly similar young woman running around. Makes the Fae in general, with their hyper good looks, difficult. And Mab/Titania? Actress needs to be towering.
From a story perspective, don't mess with the order- and they will. Need Bab-5 levels of control to adapt this particular story correctly. Other than that, this should be a relatively easy adaption compared to something like Wheel of Time or Sword of Truth- they just need to not pull a Dark is Rising or Shannara screwup with the episodes to "pull in viewers."
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In terms of taking lessons from some other adaptations ...
I think the fan base generally understands a TV adaptation has to be streamlined. That's OK, it's going to happen. But if you're going to add significant arcs of new non-book material, it had better 1) clearly do something for the narrative or characterization that the cut stuff didn't work at 2) be done well. An example of done well would be The Expanse bringing in Avasarala from the start - that introduced one of the fan-favourite characters earlier than in the books, but had her doing things around the book events that largely made sense for what her job would have entailed even if unseen on page. An example of doing additions poorly would be whatever the hell the suicidal warder arc in wheel of time was going for - that bogged down a lot of run time for some exposition that wasn't terribly urgent and could have been covered in a short dialog.
Most especially don't edit fan-favourite protagonists to make them much less likeable so they don't overshadow the producers' favourite characters, or to add unearned "gritty" (again, wheel of time).
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Watch Wheel of Time after reading books. Realize that the only ways to do worse would be to start changing character names to make them more "modern".
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Agree with Avasarala on the Expanse, initially appalled, but it really worked.
Clearly there are some things the writers realise didn’t quite work when originally committed to the page and have a second chance at adaption to do better. Hopefully that would occur here.
The supernatural females are easy, a CGI filter over the actress to give them an otherworldliness. That will also show when Molly gains the Mantle. Mab changes height along with her aspect so a degree of CGI will apply in any event.
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Agree with Avasarala on the Expanse, initially appalled, but it really worked.
Especially that they used adding an earlier story for her to introduce the OPA's interest in stealth materials right from the very beginning. A nod to the readers who understood the significance, and a clever twist on all the viewers who didn't and thought it was a red herring for the season 1 plot instead of a Chekov's Gun for four seasons later.
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Hindsight should be used to improve the narrative, doubtless there are things in the early books Jim is kicking himself about. Characters in later books can be referenced earlier
I would for example introduce Michael and Charity briefly in Storm Front, it’s clear from Grave Peril they had been knocking around for a bit, before Grave Peril and The Toad Demon/Harry’s destroyed door is a natural Hook for that with Michael turning him down because he is dealing with a Human Sorceror and have Harry try to contact Michael in Fool Moon, only for Charity to tell him Michael is on the other side of the world (the Loupe Garou is supposed to be from an Saints Curse, so a Knight should be able to slay one or help provide insight.). Properly set up her hate for Harry in Grave Peril, and have the young Molly introduced early and her fascination with Harry begin.
You can do more with Rudy in Fool Moon knowing what he is going to do in Battle Ground. Set up his poor trigger discipline, and denial and hatred of Harry and Murphy even then, a brief scene at the end of Rudy taking notes on Murphy and Harry.
They can reference Butters earlier even if the character is not properly introduced until Dead Beat. He was in post throughout all the early stories. It would be appropriate for Murphy to try to get the Loupe Garou bodies to Butters and avoid Brioche because the former is more competent appropriate as that novel introduces the Alphas.
There are important people to the Dresden Files who are introduced late or underplayed as characters which can be rectified in adaption.
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I'll either like what they do or I won't, but I don't tell a plumber how to plumb. The books span too much time and I am speculating that the novella form will be the basis of any show, if a show there is to be. Taking place in the Dresden Universe but not in the main story line.
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Don't introduce a heavy-hitter (like a naagloshii) in episode frigging #1, where it should rip Harry apart.
The creature in episode 1 was referred to as a skin-walker, not specifically a naagloshi. There are several different kinds of skin-walkers in Native American lore.
Per Wikipedia:
"While perhaps the most common variety seen in horror fiction by non-Navajo people, the yee naaldlooshii is one of several varieties of skin-walkers in Navajo culture; specifically, they are a type of 'ánti'įhnii."
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Anyone other than Gerard Butler wouldn't be appropriate for Toot. But he needs to get back in shape.
Sorry, but Toot is almost pure comic-relief until late in the series; anyone who can do a decent "straight man" & deliver comic lines with deadpan / confused delivery will do fine. My own first pick would be (young) Jim Carrey, but I dunno if cgi-de-aging is worth it, or if Carrey the Elder is even still up to the physicality of the role.
... Christina Hendricks as Charity would be possible, but there's not a highly similar young woman running around ...
Katherine Heigl or Rebecca Romijn might be good; and the "familial looks" thing doesn't have to be too close, as a fair bit can be done in the Makeup dep't; looks can be changed a LOT via "makeover."
You know what I think the biggest challenge is going to be? Molly. You have to cast a pigtails-and-training-bra little girl, with the intention that they will become a sexy bombshell: that strikes me as really VERY uncomfortably close to "grooming" (in the pedophilia sense). I just... UGH!
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I think most have made excellent points regarding changes.
Sadly, my expectations are not high given the studio it is with and their track record. I expect it will mostly be a fun murder-mystery/monster-of-the-week type of thing. Which in the early books...it sort of is. But it would take an exceptionally good team (particularly a good show runner) to do it real justice.
Dan Erikson knows how to do a great show, but he doesn't have much experience at this sort of thing. Taika Waititi has a good sense of humour, and has done plenty of fantasy stuff, but he also likes to mix in the mundanity to contrast it - but I don't think he would be available and is probably too expensive these days. Michael Hirst (of Vikings fame) also has great potential, knows how to do great personal drama mixed with enormous world-shaking events. There are probably others I can't think of right this second.
I personally am more inclined to an animated show like The Legend of Vox Machina or Castlevania. I think that would be the most effective way to get all the mythology and magic in the show as well as the story and drama (not to mention it solves the issue of actors ageing at different rates and other tricky things).
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I personally am more inclined to an animated show like The Legend of Vox Machina or Castlevania. I think that would be the most effective way to get all the mythology and magic in the show as well as the story and drama (not to mention it solves the issue of actors ageing at different rates and other tricky things).
Provided the animation is done well, and the voices for the characters are carefully selected. That goes for any "monsters" if they do live action.. I am talking about the same voice different monster in ten different shows.
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Sadly, my expectations are not high given the studio it is with and their track record.
Oh, is there something solid about a studio? I thought we were just speculating Amazon because Prime has been on a bit of a SFF binge.
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Last I heard, and my information could well be out-of-date, was that FX had picked it up.
Jim's been to a few meeting since this happened with the showrunner, and he seemed confident with that person at the time.
Covid may have changed a lot though of course.
Provided the animation is done well, and the voices for the characters are carefully selected. That goes for any "monsters" if they do live action.. I am talking about the same voice different monster in ten different shows.
I think the style in Legend of Vox Machina would be what I would want, but I understand there are many types out there. I do think LVM would be the most effective art style as it's easier to do the magic and get appropriate levels of awesome without spending too much money.
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FX were part of Fox who sold all their fiction content production (except Fox News) to Disney. That’s why What We Do In The Shadows suddenly, but agreeably popped up on Disney Plus.
The Dresden Files sitting between the MCU and the Star Wars multiverse? Yes please.
The Showrunner who could probably do it best would be Eric Kripke Supernatural, Revolution and currently The Boys, but he is busy doing an excellent job with the latter. Perhaps someone like the Director Executive Producer on Loki? Kate Herron she isn’t returning for season 2
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I think the style in Legend of Vox Machina would be what I would want, but I understand there are many types out there. I do think LVM would be the most effective art style as it's easier to do the magic and get appropriate levels of awesome without spending too much money.
Actually I think it is a toss up anymore with what computers can generate as far as special effects go. Disney has done a fantastic job with shows like The Mandalorian.. Animation is good and can be good, but I think the over all impact is lost when it is animated. I've tried to watch some of the background animation series that they've done for Star Wars, like "The Bad Batch," and yes, they are written well, but the emotions on an animated face is no match for a live actor's face. If they have to do fewer episodes, so be it, but I think the live action is worth it. And yes, the special effects for the magic can be just as good.
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I'd want the showrunners of Lucifer. And it so happens they're just about to finish the 6th and final season on Netflix.
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My fear with animation would be that it would lose the real-world Chicago vibe that Butcher writes so well. I really like Legend of Vox Machina and other anime series, but all the anime is set in a very fantasy-style world. The Dresden Files is set in our world. I am just not sure the setting and all the emotional stakes that go along with real people dying would transfer over the animation. In contrast, the reason why the Two Rivers Folk left their village in Wheel of Time was because of the very real threat of violence done to their friends and family, and I, as a viewer, had a very emotional reaction because I could see all the blood and gore. If that was done in animation, I am not sure how I, as an audience member, would feel.
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I'd want the showrunners of Lucifer. And it so happens they're just about to finish the 6th and final season on Netflix.
Oh hell no.
That last season broke the fandom; quite a number of people are not happy at how that show ended, feeling that the conclusion was forced rather than a natural growth of the storyline, and that the season in general forgot, ignored, and/or directly contradicted characterization and themes established through the previous five seasons. If you don't believe me, check out the subreddit. There's still disagreement on whether or not the ending was good, over six months after it aired. We don't need showrunners who alienated a huge chunk of their loyal fanbase in charge of any Dresden Files adaptation (and I'd refuse to watch with them in charge, knowing they wouldn't stick the landing.)
If you mean the original Lucifer showrunner, who left after the first two seasons, then I'd agree with you. I don't think anyone would argue that those episodes were a good, solid start of a great show.
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What about the showrunners from Bosch? That one felt like an excellent mystery series, and properly did one case per season instead of a crime of the week setup. (I could also probably see Titus Welliver as Morgan, but that's a different conversation).
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That one felt like an excellent mystery series, and properly did one case per season instead of a crime of the week setup.
I don't know anything about Bosch or the showrunners, but this brings up a good point. Do you think the adaptation (if done in TV form) should be one season per case, one case per week, or something else? Personally, I think it should be more of an arc format. The first season could be made up of books 1-3, each being 2 or 3 episodes, with later seasons being more one case per season (you can't or shouldn't do Changes or DB in only 3 episodes). The issue with this format would be showing a progression of time between arcs. In the books, we know that typically each book is 9-15 months after the last book. You could get away with this time progression easier if each case is a full season, but it would be much harder in other storytelling methods, leading to confusion among first-time viewers.
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Personally I'm not entirely sure that I want there to be an adaptation at all in the current social climate, but if it happens the most important rules would be:
Do- Respect the source material and fan base.
Don't- Use the name to publish your own story that would otherwise never get greenlit because you're a talentless hack and you know it, and then attack fans of the series on social media because they don't like it.
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Don't- Use the name to publish your own story that would otherwise never get greenlit because you're a talentless hack and you know it, and then attack fans of the series on social media because they don't like it.
Oh come on, everyone knows Tolkien would be nothing without Peter Jackson and crew rewriting him.
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Oh come on, everyone knows Tolkien would be nothing without Peter Jackson and crew rewriting him.
Peter Jackson's LOTR(not the Hobbitt) movies are the model of respecting the source material that every book reproduction should strive for. Yeah, changes were made, but if you watched them without knowing the movie titles, you could identify the source material.
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Yeah. Like, there were a lot of changes I didn't like (especially in the Two Towers, you did my boi Faramir dirty PJ).
But it was at least respectful to the original and didn't, say, kill off the MC and have his corpse jacked (Halo). It didn't 'subvert our expectations' by revealing that all the heroes of the past are worthless losers and failures with nothing to offer their OC Donut Steel (Star Wars Sequels). It didn't retcon important lore and story elements for dumb reasons (Wheel of Time, the upcoming Rings of Power).
Quite frankly I dread a Dresden Files TV Series released today.
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Exercise your right to not consume what you don't like. Butcher got full of himself by writing checks he's having a hard time cashing. The series is too long and spans too great a period of time for TV. It isn't finished and he keeps moving the goal posts. Whoever does it would do better to maintain the style and ditch the main story line. As far in as we are there are still unsolved mysteries in the early books and a back story that is important to the series.
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Yeah. Like, there were a lot of changes I didn't like (especially in the Two Towers, you did my boi Faramir dirty PJ).
Eh. I think you identified what the point is.
Twisting secondary characters into pretzels (Faramir, Denethor)? Can be done even if sad. You still kinda lose a key point of the story (that even good men fall for supernatural evil, if they have no supernatural backing from the good guys) but the same story echoed in the MCs saves it.
Twisting main characters/anatagonists? Not good, because secondaries still echoing the theme get overshadowed.
But what IS the theme of the Dresden Files, really? What's that essential core you cannot compromise? Normal human overcoming odds doesn't really apply, so what is it?
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The main theme is Harry trying to stay human and connected with humanity, from Storm Front where he openly advertises what he is through all the pop culture references, his desperate attempts to reconnect with Susan, his infection by Lash, his refusal to become the Winter Knight, his suicide attempt, it’s a constant battle for Harry not to become a monster, not become a peril for humanity, to stay human despite all the pain and loss and the offers of power and temptation.
You can’t compromise this about Harry, nor can you compromise the secondary characters important to this, Murphy, Michael, Will and Georgia, Butters, Molly, even Thomas whose battle against his inner monster mirrors Harry’s own, Uriel and Odin in all of his forms, Father Forthill. Everyone Harry looks to for moral advice and to stay grounded.
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I think it's been stated in various forms already, but mostly, I think you have to have a team or writers and directors who love the Dresden Files and are willing to set their egos aside in order to honor the source material that we all love. As much as I'd love to see a live action Dresden, it's just not worth it if it's going to be adapted to unrecognizability (sp?). No one wants a shit adaptation. I know--It's too early or late in the day for obvious statements. lol
Cheers and best to you---Brien
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The main theme is Harry trying to stay human and connected with humanity, from Storm Front where he openly advertises what he is through all the pop culture references, his desperate attempts to reconnect with Susan, his infection by Lash, his refusal to become the Winter Knight, his suicide attempt, it’s a constant battle for Harry not to become a monster, not become a peril for humanity, to stay human despite all the pain and loss and the offers of power and temptation.
You can’t compromise this about Harry, nor can you compromise the secondary characters important to this, Murphy, Michael, Will and Georgia, Butters, Molly, even Thomas whose battle against his inner monster mirrors Harry’s own, Uriel and Odin in all of his forms, Father Forthill. Everyone Harry looks to for moral advice and to stay grounded.
I think you have a fair point, but you forgot the other half - Harry's counterpoints. Sells, who goes mad with power. Marcone, who is kinda evil, kinda trying to do alright, and likely up for a fall. Nicodemus, who is a grade-A evil guy but loves it (and thinks his is the better path than Harry's). And maybe Cowl, if he ever comes back. Now you could probably mix away Cowl into the other two, but you can't have Harry's story without Marcone's and Nic's.
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Some things that fly in the books won't fly on any screen.
A tete a tete with a 14 year old in a tree house where she talks about fun time handcuffs while she takes off her bra won't make it even on Amazon.
Bondage sex with a proto vampire whose throat he later cuts after tricking her wouldn't seem to translate well.
Thomas banging his way through half the females in Chicago, which by any definition you care to lay down, is Thomas committing rape over and over again. And he's a good guy.
Lara have some type of weird relationship where she turns her father into a thrall by sexing him out of his mind. Seems pretty incestuous on its face.
Clearly he has some narrative hurdles. Maybe I'm a prude. The closest in tone from my old man's perspective is something on the order of Magnum PI. A very dark murderous Magnum.
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Some things that fly in the books won't fly on any screen.
A tete a tete with a 14 year old in a tree house where she talks about fun time handcuffs while she takes off her bra won't make it even on Amazon.
Bondage sex with a proto vampire whose throat he later cuts after tricking her wouldn't seem to translate well.
Thomas banging his way through half the females in Chicago, which by any definition you care to lay down, is Thomas committing rape over and over again. And he's a good guy.
Lara have some type of weird relationship where she turns her father into a thrall by sexing him out of his mind. Seems pretty incestuous on its face.
Clearly he has some narrative hurdles. Maybe I'm a prude. The closest in tone from my old man's perspective is something on the order of Magnum PI. A very dark murderous Magnum.
It won't play if done suggestively, but it has the potential for comedy gold if done respectfully
Those two acts are separated by 9 books and 9 years in the characters lives. The sex scene was fine in the moment(unwise but understandable imo) and Harry has put himself through hell over the throat cut.
Maybe I've missed some stories, but Thomas put himself through hell by not sleeping around in the ones I read. And he's usually made a point of seeking out willing partners such as the swartalves.
Lara and her father's "conflict" is straight up incestuous. But it's that way because of White Court tradition laid down mostly by Papa Raith himself. Play up the Lara as a reformer angle and don't be graphic and it'll be fine.
Narrative hurles are all about presentation.
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I think we also have to ask - free-TV or cable adaptation? TV is going to want conisstent length episodes to fit in their grid. Chase was very happy with the Sopranos flexibility, he could hand one over to HBO that was 55 minutes, or 62, or 57, whatever. Film, cut, then time it so you could tell how long it was.
Until they actually put a number to it, and that was later in the series, I didn't picture Harry as THAT tall. Six four, five? Maybe. The one, two, five percenters. But six NINE gets noticed and mentioned. That's the how many in a thousand. The Wolfe mention shows the issue with numbers. I think the original is "a seventh of a ton" which is not usually good, but hardly disabling in most cases. Heck, Michael and Sanya are likely in the ballpark, and Hendricks more, though they are taller. I picture them in the 6'5", 6'6" area, though I think we are told Hendricks was 300 or more. Heck, my image of Michael was close to Merlin Olsen, and he played at 300 at times.
I think there is going to be an issue with religious ties. They are heavily linked with one brand of Christianity, which will turn some off some other Christians. Non Christians may be turned off. Athiests. The 30 piece of silver Denarians. The noose.
And so many characters... plenty will get dropped. Who's The Dresden Tom Bombadil?
As far as the sex.. Thomas is not raping his way thru Chicago. it's willing partners. Thomas is gorgeous. We keep hearing that. Think a Margot Robbie can't get some any evening she wants in the clubs?
Incest in the White Court? Um, Game of Thrones? Cercei and Jamie? Two of the main characters are brother and sister in bed in the first episode? With three kids? And some would read the whole powderkeg was sparked when a married prince ran away with the fiancee of another noble. consentual or not.
and what happens if Jim has not finished the series when the adaptation catches up? Holy G R R Martin, Batman! I want Jim writing the BAT, not some dude at HBO or Netflix. Heck, Martin never even told us for sure who Jon Snow's parents are....
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The Lara/Lord Raith thing has to be clearly portrayed as a Lara as a victim, she was trying desperately to avoid Imari being abused in a similar fashion to her and her sisters.
The elephant in the room is the lack of significant recurring characters of colour. You have Rawlings, Lamar, Sanya and Martha Liberty and thats about it. Chicago has a significant African American population which is virtually unrepresented. Who would you race (and or gender flip?) Will perhaps? Would a black Mcanally fly? Paranoid Gary?
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The Lara/Lord Raith thing has to be clearly portrayed as a Lara as a victim, she was trying desperately to avoid Imari being abused in a similar fashion to her and her sisters.
The elephant in the room is the lack of significant recurring characters of colour. You have Rawlings, Lamar, Sanya and Martha Liberty and thats about it. Chicago has a significant African American population which is virtually unrepresented. Who would you race (and or gender flip?) Will perhaps? Would a black Mcanally fly? Paranoid Gary?
Well, the original television show did make Morgan black and featured Ancient Mai a lot more than she is in the books. So changing the gender and race of the characters isn't too big of a deal.
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Morgan is supposed to be of Welsh descent about 200 years old, (the surname is a giveaway)so not really appropriate, he isn’t from Chicago, and it’s a failure to address that issue which is the problem. Besides setting up an recurring antagonist as black I found problematic, same if they tried it with Rudy.
Ancient Mai as a dragon was just wrong. I have set out Harry as monster above, making one of his fellow wizards one goes against that.
How about Larry Fowler? Or The new Luccio I think both of those would work.
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Representation is overrated. Authenticity is much better. If you flip over a character to a different color you just look desperate.
It annoyed me to the extreme that Roland of Eld was black in the movie. I pictured him in my head as a more sunburnt Clint Eastwood for most of my life.
Do: Decrease the amount of wisecracks and trash talk. Looks good on paper (mostly) but on the screen it'll sound like a horrible action movie.
Don't: Start untill JB finishes the series. lol
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Representation is overrated. Authenticity is much better. If you flip over a character to a different color you just look desperate.
It annoyed me to the extreme that Roland of Eld was black in the movie. I pictured him in my head as a more sunburnt Clint Eastwood for most of my life.
Do: Decrease the amount of wisecracks and trash talk. Looks good on paper (mostly) but on the screen it'll sound like a horrible action movie.
Don't: Start untill JB finishes the series. lol
The show writers, directors, and producers do need to be faithful to the series as much as possible. However having said that viewers/fans have to realize what not everything on page translates on to film very well and have to be changed. I think if Jim takes the time to work closely with the script writers it will be okay..
I don't disagree about what you saying about changing the color of an actor, but that doesn't bother me half as much as changing the sex of a character.. Because the character remains the same, just a different actor of color plays him or her. Opera has done it for years, Tosca remains Tosca no matter the race of the singer playing her. Dr Who is the latest, suddenly both the Doctor and the Master are women? Why? There are strong Time Ladies out there, Ramoda was one of them, so why change the sex of the Doctor? They did it with Captain Marvel as well.. Okay, now I wonder when Wonder Woman will become Wonder Man or Black Widow becomes Black Widower? ::)
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Black widower... ROFL :D
And it's just easy cash. Fresh out of ideas? Reboot a popular show/movie with a sex change, or a more representative cast and you're not a copycat, but politically correct.
I get that not everything translates well to the screen, which is why I prefer watching the movie first, then reading the books. The other way around is just a recipe for disappointment.
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If you see the actor instead of the role someone isn't doing their job well.
Since Dr Who isn't human, what difference does it make what gender he/she is? I mean, come on, one of the big villains was a vacuum cleaner carrying a toilet plunger. You bought into that didn't you?
Also leave out comic book characters. Wonder Women was a bondage queen who spent as much time tied up with her golden lasso as any villain. She was also female since she was an Amazon. But face facts, Rue Paul could play her if he needn't go the full Monty. And the same for Black Widow. And how would you know? Do you have crotch vision or bust detectors? You see what you expect to see.
Kabuki Theater plays off this and it has been done on film. Victor Victoria is hysterical. Color doesn't matter much either since in Morgan's case there are Black Welsh. I'd settle for good, no matter who plays the roles.
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I think you mean Black Irish who are the descendants of the Spanish Armada survivors who washed up in Ireland. Black Welsh is a type of sheep. Morgan was not the Black Sheep of the White Council, Harry was.
Historically Wales was Celtic and the very isolated Valleys tended to keep out even the English. Welsh is a living language, especially in the more rural North Wales as a consequence of this isolation. Cardiff was a major port and as such would have visitors from across the world, and of course there was slavery (but Bristol across the Channel was the major port for that trade) but major immigration from the West Indies only occurred post WW2, far too late for Morgan. The 2011 census recorded only 0.6% 0f the population of Wales of being of African descent
A Morgan born in the 1950’s could plausibly be of black heritage, still extremely unusual but not one in the 1800’s. Conrad Coates the actor playing Morgan was actually born in London. I am surprised they cast an English Actor for a Welsh role. That type of thing makes the Welsh cultural establishment quite unhappy.
You would expect characters from Chicago to reflect the ethnic heritage of that city as at the time of their birth. Either that or you change their backstory and alienate the fans. A black Morgan is feasible if he was West Indian origin. Very arbitrary changes are annoying but hey look at what they did with Murphy and Susan, basically swapped the actresses.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Welsh_people ;)
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Morgan is supposed to be of Welsh descent about 200 years old, (the surname is a giveaway)so not really appropriate, he isn’t from Chicago, and it’s a failure to address that issue which is the problem. Besides setting up an recurring antagonist as black I found problematic, same if they tried it with Rudy.
Morgan's national background wasn't particularly fundamental to his character though, despite the name's Welsh roots. And in fairness to the original show, whether related to the casting or not, they did tone down his antagonism - he was still strict and suspicious, but without the seeming personal hatred of Harry.
Granted I saw the series before finding the books, but "rational hardass" vs. "rabid" seems like a good adaptation change to me. A show would struggle with keeping a significant supporting character just an irrational persecutor for as long as it took the books to explain that behaviour.
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If you see the actor instead of the role someone isn't doing their job well.
Since Dr Who isn't human, what difference does it make what gender he/she is? I mean, come on, one of the big villains was a vacuum cleaner carrying a toilet plunger. You bought into that didn't you?
Also leave out comic book characters. Wonder Women was a bondage queen who spent as much time tied up with her golden lasso as any villain. She was also female since she was an Amazon. But face facts, Rue Paul could play her if he needn't go the full Monty. And the same for Black Widow. And how would you know? Do you have crotch vision or bust detectors? You see what you expect to see.
Kabuki Theater plays off this and it has been done on film. Victor Victoria is hysterical. Color doesn't matter much either since in Morgan's case there are Black Welsh. I'd settle for good, no matter who plays the roles.
So since all of the above characters are fictional, what does it matter what sex or color? I think it would make no difference if Murphy was played by a man... The tough cop thing works for both sexes, so does the love thing.. Comic book or novel? Wonder Woman can change to Greek Warrior.. Or better yet, Amazons still need men to make little Amazons, some are born boys, and what if his mother decided she wanted her son treated equally to the girls? My point stands that there is no need to change the color or sex of an existing character no matter the medium because there is no reason to create more. Oh and my impression of Sanya, is though he seems to be Russian, he is also black, I seem to remember him described that way, but I could be wrong there.
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So since all of the above characters are fictional, what does it matter what sex or color? I think it would make no difference if Murphy was played by a man... The tough cop thing works for both sexes, so does the love thing.. Comic book or novel? Wonder Woman can change to Greek Warrior.. Or better yet, Amazons still need men to make little Amazons, some are born boys, and what if his mother decided she wanted her son treated equally to the girls? My point stands that there is no need to change the color or sex of an existing character no matter the medium because there is no reason to create more. Oh and my impression of Sanya, is though he seems to be Russian, he is also black, I seem to remember him described that way, but I could be wrong there.
Respectfully, Murphy's a trope inversion- Jim loves these. A Murphy that isn't a petite, short, doll-like woman doesn't have the same struggles. She's an interior cigar-chomping hard-ass tough-as-nails wise guy, but she looks like a cheerleader- she was Jim doing a Buffy. She's actually a miniature Viking, and her coloring furthers the joke. (Recall, Butcher's Vikings- his Einherjar- are men who gleefully go after Jotnar. Relatively speaking, compared to Murphy, you're no Jotnar.)
Just like Harry's a clever, insightful, relatively wise (for his years) man who works with his mind- and is a hulking representative of humanity. It's a joke. When they confront you, Murphy's going to loom and Harry's going to go nice cop. Harry's the one who's going to try to entrap you in lying and Murphy's the one who's going to rough you up.
To do it really well, and capture an important aspect of the books, you'll need a director/showrunner who pushes close-ups for most scenes, so you can occasionally pan out to just how tall/looming Harry is. Harry forgets the effect this has on people sometimes- particularly other tall people who aren't as tall. It can elicit instant hostility from those who are used to looming themselves. I've always thought a well-done scene with Morgan would have such a cutaway, where Harry doesn't realize he's not "in Morgan's face" but "looming down into Morgan's face", which is inherently a bit more threatening.
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Morgan's national background wasn't particularly fundamental to his character though, despite the name's Welsh roots. And in fairness to the original show, whether related to the casting or not, they did tone down his antagonism - he was still strict and suspicious, but without the seeming personal hatred of Harry.
Granted I saw the series before finding the books, but "rational hardass" vs. "rabid" seems like a good adaptation change to me. A show would struggle with keeping a significant supporting character just an irrational persecutor for as long as it took the books to explain that behaviour.
Cast a retired cop.
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Cast a retired cop.
Or an actor known for playing a cop like Christopher Meloni. That gives the audience a shorthand for what a Warden is, without going into a load of exposition.
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To do it really well, and capture an important aspect of the books, you'll need a director/showrunner who pushes close-ups for most scenes, so you can occasionally pan out to just how tall/looming Harry is. Harry forgets the effect this has on people sometimes- particularly other tall people who aren't as tall. It can elicit instant hostility from those who are used to looming themselves. I've always thought a well-done scene with Morgan would have such a cutaway, where Harry doesn't realize he's not "in Morgan's face" but "looming down into Morgan's face", which is inherently a bit more threatening.
Yeah, it is funny how size can intimidate, even when the "big tall person" hasn't an aggressive bone in his body, in fact the total opposite. My poor brother who was almost as tall as Harry suffered that all of his life.
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Or an actor known for playing a cop like Christopher Meloni. That gives the audience a shorthand for what a Warden is, without going into a load of exposition.
Ooooh. I'd not considered that, but that's a good cast.
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If you see the actor instead of the role someone isn't doing their job well.
Since Dr Who isn't human, what difference does it make what gender he/she is? I mean, come on, one of the big villains was a vacuum cleaner carrying a toilet plunger. You bought into that didn't you?
Also leave out comic book characters. Wonder Women was a bondage queen who spent as much time tied up with her golden lasso as any villain. She was also female since she was an Amazon. But face facts, Rue Paul could play her if he needn't go the full Monty. And the same for Black Widow. And how would you know? Do you have crotch vision or bust detectors? You see what you expect to see.
Kabuki Theater plays off this and it has been done on film. Victor Victoria is hysterical. Color doesn't matter much either since in Morgan's case there are Black Welsh. I'd settle for good, no matter who plays the roles.
And what I expect to see is sticking to the books wherever possible. If you run out of muscular burnette women who could play Wonder Woman, start looking for a man.
My point is: Don't mess up something good just for the sake of representation. If you try to make everybody happy, you'll end up with a crappy production.
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My point is: Don't mess up something good just for the sake of representation. If you try to make everybody happy, you'll end up with a crappy production.
Exactly, that is my point too, if they want more diverse representation, invent more strong characters of different races and sexes.. What I don't understand is Jim invented Elaine, a beautiful, smart, and powerful wizard, perfect foil for Harry in many ways, dumped her... But decided to take Murphy, don't get me wrong as a smart and brave cop with good hand to hand skills she matched well, but then had her fighting so far above her weight class that in the end she became a cartoon character..
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Actually Murphy (like Hendricks and previously Marcone) was to demonstrate the reason why the supernatural community kept a low profile, humanity could wipe them out if they took concerted action. That was one of Ethnui’s aims, to set humanity against the supernatural nations, and Harry provided a way to mitigate the damage to the masquerade. The reliance upon the two banners fighting for Humanity in BG demonstrates this.
It’s interesting that in BG Murphy and Hendricks die and we get the reveal on Marcone just before this occurred, suggesting Murphy and Hendricks had played their role in this part of the narrative.
Sometimes a character is more than just a love interest (though bizarrely they mirrored this with Nathan and Gard, oh well)
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Actually Murphy (like Hendricks and previously Marcone) was to demonstrate the reason why the supernatural community kept a low profile, humanity could wipe them out if they took concerted action. That was one of Ethnui’s aims, to set humanity against the supernatural nations, and Harry provided a way to mitigate the damage to the masquerade. The reliance upon the two banners fighting for Humanity in BG demonstrates this.
It’s interesting that in BG Murphy and Hendricks die and we get the reveal on Marcone just before this occurred, suggesting Murphy and Hendricks had played their role in this part of the narrative.
Sometimes a character is more than just a love interest (though bizarrely they mirrored this with Nathan and Gard, oh well)
I can buy that for the most part, Hendricks for the most part, though an effective body guard/warrior, had the limitations of a normal human being. Murphy didn't, by the time she
was gunned down, she was no longer realistic as a character.. She was a realistic exceptional vanilla human character up until the time she got booted off the police force. Then it seemed like Jim didn't know what to do with her, so he attempted to turn her into a mini Justice League Wonder Woman/ mother confessor love interest for Harry. Frankly except for her most ardent fans, it was groaner almost every time she appeared on the page.
And yes, it was normal human beings that fought and died under Harry's banner to save Chicago.. They weren't great at hand to hand combat taking on enemies far above their weight class and skills. They weren't expert marksmen, nor could they rip off casts and hop onto motorcycles with half healed injuries with a missile launcher strapped to their backs.. They were just ordinary people taking a stand.
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Butcher is culling his cast of characters. I assume there is some point to it. I don't pretend to understand what.
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Really the only people culled are the normal human combatants.
The story is moving into more high stakes conflicts and all the characters who can't survive there are being moved aside, replaced or powered up. So Michael goes and we get Jedi Knight of the Cross Butters with 2 werewolf sidekicks. I can see Thomas' roles being handled by Goodman Grey. Molly went for clingy damsel apprentice to demi-goddess Winter Lady. Toot and Lacuna are nearing full Sidhe powers. Lara is definitely the most capable of the love interests and definitely not an easy potential hostage but she'll play a support role.
The cast s being cycled out as the danger ramps up. So Harry doesn't feel as guilty taking his crew into battles they can't handle just to give him a slight edge.
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Really the only people culled are the normal human combatants.
The story is moving into more high stakes conflicts and all the characters who can't survive there are being moved aside, replaced or powered up. So Michael goes and we get Jedi Knight of the Cross Butters with 2 werewolf sidekicks. I can see Thomas' roles being handled by Goodman Grey. Molly went for clingy damsel apprentice to demi-goddess Winter Lady. Toot and Lacuna are nearing full Sidhe powers. Lara is definitely the most capable of the love interests and definitely not an easy potential hostage but she'll play a support role.
The cast s being cycled out as the danger ramps up. So Harry doesn't feel as guilty taking his crew into battles they can't handle just to give him a slight edge.
The Knights of the Cross are still ordinary vanilla humans. Butters has trained hard, but he has a lot to learn, he is far from being a Jedi. The Holy Knights are still subject to injury and death.. So yeah, with the help of the Holy Swords they step up, but they are limited.
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The Knights of the Cross are still ordinary vanilla humans. Butters has trained hard, but he has a lot to learn, he is far from being a Jedi. The Holy Knights are still subject to injury and death.. So yeah, with the help of the Holy Swords they step up, but they are limited.
Subject to injury and death, maybe. But also able to walk into a Dragon's lair and walk out with its hostages. Or to pronounce Judgement on whole Courts of evildoers.
In other words: they may technically be limited, but it really is convenient-level limited than power-level limited.
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Subject to injury and death, maybe. But also able to walk into a Dragon's lair and walk out with its hostages. Or to pronounce Judgement on whole Courts of evildoers.
In other words: they may technically be limited, but it really is convenient-level limited than power-level limited.
No, they cannot pronounce Judgement on evildoers, that is the mistake Murphy made and got a Sword broken. It is for the Almighty to judge, not them, they try to pursued the evil doer to seek redemption in the case of the Denarians... And they can kill in self defense or to save others, that gets a bit complicated, but they absolutely cannot judge.
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No, they cannot pronounce Judgement on evildoers, that is the mistake Murphy made and got a Sword broken. It is for the Almighty to judge, not them, they try to pursued the evil doer to seek redemption in the case of the Denarians... And they can kill in self defense or to save others, that gets a bit complicated, but they absolutely cannot judge.
Details. Sure, for the individual, but when the Almighty wants to use a handy tool, they get the necessary power-up.
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The Knights of the Cross are still ordinary vanilla humans. Butters has trained hard, but he has a lot to learn, he is far from being a Jedi. The Holy Knights are still subject to injury and death.. So yeah, with the help of the Holy Swords they step up, but they are limited.
It's not so much that Butters got a power up over Michael but the Sword he wields is a definite upgrade that covers his inexperience. Evil foes can't parry it and things like walls and doors a speed bump where they could trap or stop Michael or Sanya. And he has 2 werewolf sidekicks to watch his back.
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The Knights are weirdly powered, the Swords allow them to chop up a Titan, but not to harm a street thug. In Grave Peril Michael, sans Sword was still able to generate a repulsive effect to the Rampires suggesting it isn’t all the Sword, something confirmed in Little Things, his presence healed a child so he has a direct line to the almighty, something Murphy did not.
It will be a thorny question adapting the White God, I actually think Butcher has handled it well with the books, initially your not quite sure whether Michael is a nice lunatic with a magic sword or the real deal. It’s the way he interacts with people at the party which shows the latter, his faith is a genuine thing to him, and they the monsters accept it.
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The Knights are weirdly powered, the Swords allow them to chop up a Titan, but not to harm a street thug. In Grave Peril Michael, sans Sword was still able to generate a repulsive effect to the Rampires suggesting it isn’t all the Sword, something confirmed in Little Things, his presence healed a child so he has a direct line to the almighty, something Murphy did not.
Yeah, well, Michael is a step up, but then saints or almost saints have healed people.. I doubt that
you'd find that is the case with Sanya. As far as repelling the vamps, that's the classic faith thing. Harry's pentacle had the same effect, and I wouldn't be shocked if Michael wears a Cross or a religious medal of some kind.
It will be a thorny question adapting the White God, I actually think Butcher has handled it well with the books, initially your not quite sure whether Michael is a nice lunatic with a magic sword or the real deal. It’s the way he interacts with people at the party which shows the latter, his faith is a genuine thing to him, and they the monsters accept it.
Butcher has managed to tip toe on that tightrope.. I disagree that there is any doubt Who Butcher is talking about as far as God and gods go. While almost everyone here is comfortable calling God, the White God, only Mab has ever referred to Him as that. From the first time Harry mentions Him and his relationship to Him, he refers to Him as the Almighty.. When it is God that the characters are talking about it is always properly capitalized. Even when Mab talks about the White God, it is capitalized. The other assorted gods and goddesses, while if he is using their proper name it is capitalized like yours or mine would be, if he is talking about them in a general way as gods and goddesses, there is no capitalization. It is a subtle difference, but the distinction has been made from the first.
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As I say I believe the White God has yet to be created by the Singularity in the Dresdenverse but when they are, they will exist across all time in every reality. Man creates god, but then god creates man.
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As I say I believe the White God has yet to be created by the Singularity in the Dresdenverse but when they are, they will exist across all time in every reality. Man creates god, but then god creates man.
Could be, all I am saying is Butcher did handle the matter of religion and faith from the get go. It so far has been quite a feat to pull it off without creating undue offense against somebody's beliefs.
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The Lara/Lord Raith thing has to be clearly portrayed as a Lara as a victim, she was trying desperately to avoid Imari being abused in a similar fashion to her and her sisters.
The elephant in the room is the lack of significant recurring characters of colour. You have Rawlings, Lamar, Sanya and Martha Liberty and thats about it. Chicago has a significant African American population which is virtually unrepresented. Who would you race (and or gender flip?) Will perhaps? Would a black Mcanally fly? Paranoid Gary?
Most of the characters don't COME from Chicago, or are not human. Lamar does. Likely Rawlings. Susan, the woman he wanted to marry, may. And she's Latino. We do get a description of Mac - but did we ever get one for Gary? You can make him black, or brown, or Asian. The senior council, it seems only two are originally from the US - the Native American chap? I think Listen to Wind counts as minority. Martha Liberty, a black woman? Rashid is an Arab. Mai is Asian. We never really saw Simon or much of LaFortier. A minor role. The Wardens were led by Luccio, a woman, temporarily by her deputy, Morgan, and now by a Latino Ramirez. The Alphas? OK, not Billy, or Georgia, or Andi. Any of the others described? Free rein. Heck, even if just the name and the eyes, Tera West reminded me of Tyra Banks. Likewise most of the Ordo Lebes are free. In time you need to replace Murphy. That is open.
The nonhumans? The White court are all described as pale, but the Red Court seem to be South American types. Duke Ortega? The lovely young half-vamp at Chichen Itza?
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Exactly, that is my point too, if they want more diverse representation, invent more strong characters of different races and sexes.. What I don't understand is Jim invented Elaine, a beautiful, smart, and powerful wizard, perfect foil for Harry in many ways, dumped her... But decided to take Murphy, don't get me wrong as a smart and brave cop with good hand to hand skills she matched well, but then had her fighting so far above her weight class that in the end she became a cartoon character..
Elaine had a role in shaping Harry, when they were together - and for years after, when he thought that he had KILLED her, his first love. Thinking he had killed her did much in making Harry who he is now. Remember, it is still very early in Storm front he mentions his first love... and that he killed her.
She may be back, but she had a purpose, and she served it. But we know Ramirez is aware of her. Chekov's Gun?
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Elaine had a role in shaping Harry, when they were together - and for years after, when he thought that he had KILLED her, his first love. Thinking he had killed her did much in making Harry who he is now. Remember, it is still very early in Storm front he mentions his first love... and that he killed her.
She may be back, but she had a purpose, and she served it. But we know Ramirez is aware of her. Chekov's Gun?
When she has returned she has proven to be a very good partner and foil for Harry.
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When she has returned she has proven to be a very good partner and foil for Harry.
Too obvious for Jim. First love, raised together.... plus now his new fiancee could not allow it...;)
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As far as the sex.. Thomas is not raping his way thru Chicago. it's willing partners. Thomas is gorgeous. We keep hearing that. Think a Margot Robbie can't get some any evening she wants in the clubs?
Thomas is a whamp; they're all beyond pretty, of course, but the WhiteCourt "whammy" is really really similar to a date-rape drug (I'd be utterly unsurprised if that wasn't part of Jim's original design-intent). Point is -- it strips away the woman's ability to say "no" which means there is no actual consent. It's rape... despite the fact that (so far as I know) the whamps can't even turn it off! At most -- if well-fed -- they can turn it down. It's actually a twisted variant of "guy culture" -- "boys will be boys" and "he just couldn't help himself" and similar sorts of bullshit.
Except that Thomas works hard to avoid rape, and actually, he mostly succeeds. He does the "hairdresser" schtick, he goes for svartalves (and maybe other supernaturals) who can resist the mental domination and just enjoy the erotic buzz, etc.
I think the TV series could lean in on this -- how Thomas is this involuntary sexual predator who's trying to rise above that.
We've had "Lost Girl" which is about a literal succubus. We see her sexually-murder a guy in episode 1 (granted, the guy was trying to slip a date-rape drug into someone's drink... so I suspect the justification was that he "deserved it"); it lasted 4-5 seasons IIRC.
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Incest in the White Court? Um, Game of Thrones?
A father raping his (minor) daughter -- specifically to impose coercive mental bondage -- is really really different.
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Elaine
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may be back, but she had a purpose, and she served it. But we know Ramirez is aware of her. Chekov's Gun?
Oh, absolutely.
My own WAG/theory is that Elaine was Nemfected -- likely by Justin (nut maybe in the period immediatly after Harry's duel with Justin) -- and was the vector by which Aurora got Nemfected.
And Elaine is still Nemfected.
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Oh, absolutely.
My own WAG/theory is that Elaine was Nemfected -- likely by Justin (nut maybe in the period immediatly after Harry's duel with Justin) -- and was the vector by which Aurora got Nemfected.
And Elaine is still Nemfected.
I've thought that all along, now if it is true, Harry will find it out. It is possible that after she infected Aurora she was no long infected..
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The elephant in the room(*) is the lack of significant recurring characters of colour. You have Rawlings, Lamar, Sanya and Martha Liberty and thats about it. Chicago has a significant African American population which is virtually unrepresented.
I don't really count Lamar, he's a VERY minimal character; in chatter & forum-posts about the TV show, I think the term "token Black" would be used. :-[
Rawlings is pretty minor, too; but there's some history with Murphy & her dad, so we've got a bit more depth & a positive portrayal. The character could be expanded for TV (more lines, more scenes)... but suffers a lot from being a Normal in the supers-setting, which is not the look you want in portraying equality.
Sanya, now, is a solid one! The man kicks ass & takes names... unless he's shooting the ass. Again, though, I think we need to see his role expanded a bit, given more lines & more scenes.
Martha Liberty is a mixed bag, representation-wise. Plenty of magical power, plenty of authority; but very VERY few lines & scenes (bordering again on "tokenism"). I'd like to see more of her, to be honest! And I think there's plenty of scope for that in the TV show (without betraying anything core to the Dresdenverse or the Case Files (but of course we don't know her future arc, maybe she'll become a key character and some bit of TV-canon will be explicitly-contradicted by later novels (Jim's involvement with scripts&c could prevent that!))).
There's Susan, a Latina, but the "girlfriend" & "damsel in distress" frames are really strong around her; and when she turns half-vamp and reframes with power of her own, she moves directly off-stage & mostly stays there (barring Death Masks) until Changes... where Harry kills her. So... a problematic character, on several fronts.
Agreed that there are some characters (lookin at you, Alphas! Also the Wardens, as a group) for whom no race was ever established, or for whom it never seemed like a significant or relevant part of the character. I'd be down with any of them -- several of them, in fact! -- being explicitly non-Anglo.
Wizards, in general -- the world-spanning White Council, in particular -- should be VERY multi-ethnic... but mostly Asian. We presume magic power is largely equal among all groups, and the world is about 60% Asian, 17.5% African, and 17.5% European+North-American. So, equal numbers of black & white, but asian (including Indian) is about double black+white together.
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footnote-mark from above, added by me:
(*) - There's another elephant, I've gotta say. When you move outside the Dresden fandom, some communities *cough*LGBT*cough*feminists*cough* have a notably less-positive view. Dresden himself is VERY male-gazey, and some of the ways he talks about (or doesn't) gay/etc issues really leave some readerships feeling like Dresden isn't the hero they need to read.
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Wizards, in general -- the world-spanning White Council, in particular -- should be VERY multi-ethnic... but mostly Asian. We presume magic power is largely equal among all groups, and the world is about 60% Asian, 17.5% African, and 17.5% European+North-American. So, equal numbers of black & white, but asian (including Indian) is about double black+white together.
Why do we assume magical ability is equally distributed? We know it is inherited - but genes are not equally distributed among all groups. Sickle cell anemia - don't get much of that in Iceland. But they get blue eyes. Red hair? mostly Scandinavian or Celtic - but some in Northern Italy. Migh also be affected by past events - read an article about some people being immune to AIDS - they didn't have the receptors for the virus to attach - and by far the highest percentage was northern Europeans - particularly in areas ravaged by the Black Death. Maybe some areas bloodlines were wiped out in witch hunts?
Of course, outreach may be better in the Western world as well. But we did see Asians besides Mai at Morgan's trial, affirming Mouse as a Foo dog was reliable.
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Why do we assume magical ability is equally distributed? We know it is inherited - but genes are not equally distributed among all groups. Sickle cell anemia - don't get much of that in Iceland. But they get blue eyes. Red hair? mostly Scandinavian or Celtic - but some in Northern Italy. Migh also be affected by past events - read an article about some people being immune to AIDS - they didn't have the receptors for the virus to attach - and by far the highest percentage was northern Europeans - particularly in areas ravaged by the Black Death. Maybe some areas bloodlines were wiped out in witch hunts?
Some of that has to do with environmental influences, most notably Sickle Cell Anemia, it rises in populations where there is a lot of Malaria, the little bugs have a hard time penetrating the misshaped blood cells..
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Why do we assume magical ability is equally distributed?
Bluntly: because we have no reason to assume otherwise, and inventing race-based magical affinity smacks an awful lot of real-life racism. I'm pretty sure Jim is too savvy to present any Dresdenverse canon that touches this notion with a 10-foot-pole (except maybe to rebut/debunk it).
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Bluntly: because we have no reason to assume otherwise, and inventing race-based magical affinity smacks an awful lot of real-life racism. I'm pretty sure Jim is too savvy to present any Dresdenverse canon that touches this notion with a 10-foot-pole (except maybe to rebut/debunk it).
Agreed..
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I don't really count Lamar, he's a VERY minimal character; in chatter & forum-posts about the TV show, I think the term "token Black" would be used. :-[
Rawlings is pretty minor, too; but there's some history with Murphy & her dad, so we've got a bit more depth & a positive portrayal. The character could be expanded for TV (more lines, more scenes)... but suffers a lot from being a Normal in the supers-setting, which is not the look you want in portraying equality.
Sanya, now, is a solid one! The man kicks ass & takes names... unless he's shooting the ass. Again, though, I think we need to see his role expanded a bit, given more lines & more scenes.
Martha Liberty is a mixed bag, representation-wise. Plenty of magical power, plenty of authority; but very VERY few lines & scenes (bordering again on "tokenism"). I'd like to see more of her, to be honest! And I think there's plenty of scope for that in the TV show (without betraying anything core to the Dresdenverse or the Case Files (but of course we don't know her future arc, maybe she'll become a key character and some bit of TV-canon will be explicitly-contradicted by later novels (Jim's involvement with scripts&c could prevent that!))).
There's Susan, a Latina, but the "girlfriend" & "damsel in distress" frames are really strong around her; and when she turns half-vamp and reframes with power of her own, she moves directly off-stage & mostly stays there (barring Death Masks) until Changes... where Harry kills her. So... a problematic character, on several fronts.
Agreed that there are some characters (lookin at you, Alphas! Also the Wardens, as a group) for whom no race was ever established, or for whom it never seemed like a significant or relevant part of the character. I'd be down with any of them -- several of them, in fact! -- being explicitly non-Anglo.
Wizards, in general -- the world-spanning White Council, in particular -- should be VERY multi-ethnic... but mostly Asian. We presume magic power is largely equal among all groups, and the world is about 60% Asian, 17.5% African, and 17.5% European+North-American. So, equal numbers of black & white, but asian (including Indian) is about double black+white together.
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footnote-mark from above, added by me:
(*) - There's another elephant, I've gotta say. When you move outside the Dresden fandom, some communities *cough*LGBT*cough*feminists*cough* have a notably less-positive view. Dresden himself is VERY male-gazey, and some of the ways he talks about (or doesn't) gay/etc issues really leave some readerships feeling like Dresden isn't the hero they need to read.
The White Council is Eurocentric. We're told that in-series. Someone who reads the stories will note that it is an organization formed in Europe as a union of European wizards working as a block.
This means that either supernatural monsters culled other populations- not that the genes don't still express- but the wizards from those populations will tend to be younger, since older generations were decimated due to not having an umbrella organization to nurture them- or that there are other, smaller or otherwise less powerful organizations that have since been absorbed by the White Council and/or are now affiliated with same. Perhaps that's Ancient Mai's power bloc politically. Or La Fortier's.
The reason, of course, is the Merlin- he was European and founded the Council against the ruin of Rome. It's expanded, but that might be the influence of the British/Spanish/Portugese Empires instead of becoming a true global organization. We simply don't know what existed in China, India, etc., and especially the New World prior to the White Council reaching out to recruit. Was it power blocs? Did the Red Court "own" South America, did they purge their wizard level talents to prevent threat (or systemically turn them)? Was North America Sasquatch country, so the White Council can recruit there, but the other players couldn't push in? Is the acrimony between the Council and vampires partially due to the White Council effectively "conquering" Europe from White/Black court domination?
To accurately put that onscreen, I'd have less diversity in the older wizards and more diversity among the younger, with the exception of the most powerful wizards (who could have developed primarily solo, as did Dresden).
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Some of that has to do with environmental influences, most notably Sickle Cell Anemia, it rises in populations where there is a lot of Malaria, the little bugs have a hard time penetrating the misshaped blood cells..
Exactly. It's a harmful mutation in other parts of the world - but helpful THERE.
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The White Council is Eurocentric. We're told that in-series. Someone who reads the stories will note that it is an organization formed in Europe as a union of European wizards working as a block.
This means that either supernatural monsters culled other populations- not that the genes don't still express- but the wizards from those populations will tend to be younger, since older generations were decimated due to not having an umbrella organization to nurture them- or that there are other, smaller or otherwise less powerful organizations that have since been absorbed by the White Council and/or are now affiliated with same. Perhaps that's Ancient Mai's power bloc politically. Or La Fortier's.
The reason, of course, is the Merlin- he was European and founded the Council against the ruin of Rome. It's expanded, but that might be the influence of the British/Spanish/Portugese Empires instead of becoming a true global organization. We simply don't know what existed in China, India, etc., and especially the New World prior to the White Council reaching out to recruit. Was it power blocs? Did the Red Court "own" South America, did they purge their wizard level talents to prevent threat (or systemically turn them)? Was North America Sasquatch country, so the White Council can recruit there, but the other players couldn't push in? Is the acrimony between the Council and vampires partially due to the White Council effectively "conquering" Europe from White/Black court domination?
To accurately put that onscreen, I'd have less diversity in the older wizards and more diversity among the younger, with the exception of the most powerful wizards (who could have developed primarily solo, as did Dresden).
And those are the witch hunts. The Asians can be largely diminished by Jade Court. The South Americans by Red Court. The Vamps have little problem defeating a vanilla human hand to hand - but a wizard? Different story. The Vamps might cull the freaks.
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Bluntly: because we have no reason to assume otherwise, and inventing race-based magical affinity smacks an awful lot of real-life racism. I'm pretty sure Jim is too savvy to present any Dresdenverse canon that touches this notion with a 10-foot-pole (except maybe to rebut/debunk it).
We have no reason to assume it IS spread equally. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. I also note the vampires are in South/Central America (Red court), North America (Whites), Europe (Blacks) and Asia (Jade) - no hold in Africa? A natural defense somehow? Or did magic develop as a defense against the vampires? An unarmed human has no chance against even a Whamp - but a wizard does. The Jade appears to be the smallest court. Wizards in the East not unknown, but somewhat lower numbers (but still, Mai, Yoshimo, Mai's messenger that was frozen) The Blacks were most powerful Court- until Dracula, the DIY vampire killer book, came out. The Euros seem to have the heavy hitters magically. (and wasn't there a signatory to the Accords in the Ukraine, a shapeshifter?). Also exposure to some old races - we've seen Hades and Odin and Valkyries! might cause some genes to freak.
Possibly the areas with fewer wizards are the most pure HUMANS.
The indigenous peoples that their Old Ways, and the Blessing Path - was that against the Reds?
The North American Whites are the weakest Vamps - but the Forest Peoples are the least malign. Only Blood on his Soul and his subgroup seem warriors/predators/hostile.
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The Whites originate from Etruscan Greece, which mean an admixture of the European and African nations bounding the Mediterranean and the Roman Empire.
They aren’t North American.
They definitely are not Canadian.
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We have no reason to assume it IS spread equally ...
The two assumptions are not equivalent.
But perhaps we should drop this tangent, as it's trending in kinda-ugly real-world directions that I believe are explicitly against the forum rules.
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I just want something as slick as Moonknight or Kenobi, but a bit less sweary than The Boys.
Six episodes, six episodes, eight episodes (Kenobi is an adaption of several games, books, comics and cartoons so I count it). None stick to their source material but the final version works well.
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... None stick to their source material but the final version works well.
Honestly, I get pretty hardcore-meh about a new DF adaptation onto the screen, as soon as I envision it not being relatively faithful to the printed "canon."
The stuff we learn from novel to novel, the gradual increase in scope and scale and risk and stakes... all of this is part of what I enjoy in the Dresdenverse.
Something I don't need maintained: each novel covers a very short time, typically a few days, with a year of downtime between. Instead, I would envision the various books' plotlines being a bit more intertwined, so by the time "plotline A" is mostly resolved, we're launched into "plotline B," with some forshadowing & hints forward to C & D & even later. Add in the shorts, the graphic novels -- maybe even some of the microfictions! -- to round things out.
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The show writers, directors, and producers do need to be faithful to the series as much as possible. However having said that viewers/fans have to realize what not everything on page translates on to film very well and have to be changed. I think if Jim takes the time to work closely with the script writers it will be okay..
I don't disagree about what you saying about changing the color of an actor, but that doesn't bother me half as much as changing the sex of a character.. Because the character remains the same, just a different actor of color plays him or her. Opera has done it for years, Tosca remains Tosca no matter the race of the singer playing her. Dr Who is the latest, suddenly both the Doctor and the Master are women? Why? There are strong Time Ladies out there, Ramoda was one of them, so why change the sex of the Doctor? They did it with Captain Marvel as well.. Okay, now I wonder when Wonder Woman will become Wonder Man or Black Widow becomes Black Widower? ::)
The bolded part will only happen in Disney buys out Warner Brothers. Wonder Woman is part of the DC Comicbook Universe while Wonder Man is part of The Marvel Comicbook Universe. I think you are safe from that for awhile.