ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Warbird on July 13, 2018, 03:06:09 AM
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So my intention here is discuss story or setting choices that in hindsight were maybe not the best idea. I like the series but it's been around for nearly two decades and 15 books (plus a lot of short stories) As such, some things have not necessarily aged well and others turned out to not to have been such a good choice with how the story has progressed. That said if people want to talk about things that occurred in recent books, that's fine too.
Off the top of my head I have two:
1) As discussed in another thread, I find the idea that black magic inherently corrupts a person (and as such the Blackstaff is needed for the White Council's dirty jobs) a poor choice. I think the idea works in Molly's disfavor and is honestly less interesting than the idea that such corruption is based on the person using the magic and not vice versa.
2) Wizards inherently have issues with technology. To be fair, this was presented in a pretty silly way from the start. Harry talks about how he naturally can cause issues with firearms which is ridiculous (although the books do drop this as time goes on). Like I can understand how Wizards can screw with electronics, especially delicate things like computers (as it is computers in our world can have issues with outside energy sources). But guns are pretty simply machines, even the fancy one's. It'd be like if being a wizard meant you'd have cause a bicycle to fail. I could understand that a wizard could, if they try, bend the laws of nature. I mean that's what they do. But to inherently prevent things like combustion or lever or gear or springs (for example) from working is just silly.
That said, for actual tech like cell phones and computers, I feel that wizards being unable to use them is kind of meaningless for the story. Like, the White Council could still be behind the times simply because institutions are slow to change plus most of its members are pretty old (so no one would have thought of Paranet before Harry did). Similarly, Harry can still be on his own early on because for instance no one can get to him in time or he's purposefully keeping them out (which is something I did not care for, but it seemed like Jim intended for it to be a flaw of Harry's so its not an issue).
Bu the world now is significantly different from the world of 2000 (when the first book came out). So much stuff is online now and even things like newspapers are dying out. It struck me how Harry had to use a pay phone in Storm Front. Now they're non-existent which for the series would make it so much harder for Harry to update/get in touch with others. Like the only way for Harry to make calls is from his house or someone else's (or to do so magically). This ends up cutting him off from his supporting cast to such a significant degree that it seems like it'll cause issues for the stories. Honestly, this doesn't seem to add anything for the story but does cause issues. Plus other series in this vein let their wizards use tech and it doesn't seem to cut off any story potential.
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2) Wizards inherently have issues with technology. ... It'd be like if being a wizard meant you'd have cause a bicycle to fail.
Bikes fail all the time. I'm watching the Tour de France right now, and people have mechanical problems several times per stage, and that's with outrageously high end bikes maintained on a regular basis by professional dedicated mechanics.
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The issue with the firearms was a mistake by Jim I think but he basically let it fade away, and doesn't really seem to be part of the book lore anymore. He even had Carlos with a modern sidearm. So one could walk away feeling that it was in fact Harry's misunderstanding of firearms that lead him to believe it was magical interference causing semiautomatic weapons to jam when in reality it was happening naturally (guns do jam sometimes after all).
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Somewhere he even has Murphy call him out on it. I forget which book but she basically asks him if he's ever seen a modern gun jam, and he says he's still sticking with the revolver.
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So my intention here is discuss story or setting choices that in hindsight were maybe not the best idea. I like the series but it's been around for nearly two decades and 15 books (plus a lot of short stories) As such, some things have not necessarily aged well
I just re-read the series, and there's definitely a major shift in how things work between GP and DM.
The one I would complain about is Morgan. In Turn Coat the impression seems to be "basically a decent guy but burned out and seen/done too many hard things". But earlier he seems to be pretty evil, if committed to his duty, and doesn't even seem all that competent. OK, some of this is Harry's viewpoint changing, but definitely not all of it. Harry seems to have forgotten by TC that Morgan intended to kill him on the Merlin's instructions in SK...
Also the Laws don't seem to have been quite nailed down in the early books, which makes some of Morgan's stuff seem even more arbitrary.
Off the top of my head I have two:
1) As discussed in another thread, I find the idea that black magic inherently corrupts a person (and as such the Blackstaff is needed for the White Council's dirty jobs) a poor choice. I think the idea works in Molly's disfavor and is honestly less interesting than the idea that such corruption is based on the person using the magic and not vice versa.
Well, given the emphasis on Free Will in the Dresdenverse, I don't necessarily think the White Council's view on this is correct.
Harry never shows any sign of corruption from tapping into necromancy to raise Sue (OK Luccio lets him get away with that, but it's still the same dark energy, so...) and he hasn't shown any effects from killing Justin since at least WN (if you think Lash was tapping into it) or since way earlier otherwise.
I think you can get a quite different view of the black-magic-corruption phenomenon if you just look at what we actually see happen, assuming the comments about it by White Council characters (including Harry) are biased/potentially inaccurate.
My view is that using certain kinds of magic does change you - that seems to be an "observable" phenomenon (by using the Sight/soulgazes and to beings like Ulsharavas in DM) so we have to accept it - but that that change isn't necessarily always something that someone not trained in the White Council's way of thinking would consider definitively negative.
I'm not at all sure Molly was "corrupted" in the latter sense - even in the GS/Bombshells era, when she has tons of other reasons to be crazy (psychic damage from Chichen Itza, her involvement in Harry's suicide, seeing tons of Fomor crimes and feeling inadequate to do enough about it, too much interaction with Lea) she is still basically a positive force in Chicago. I mean yeah technically she's a vigilante, but so are the Alphas and we never look at them as corrupted.
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I like the idea that technology goes kablooey around wizards. It creates so many different limitations on what wizards can do. Would you want Harry to be sitting at Burger King and texting his magic at the enemy?
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The issue with the firearms was a mistake by Jim I think but he basically let it fade away, and doesn't really seem to be part of the book lore anymore. He even had Carlos with a modern sidearm. So one could walk away feeling that it was in fact Harry's misunderstanding of firearms that lead him to believe it was magical interference causing semiautomatic weapons to jam when in reality it was happening naturally (guns do jam sometimes after all).
Not a mistake, just something that a lot of people misunderstand. Here's his explanation of how some of that actually works, and it's a lot less like a walking EMP than most people imagine:
Quote from: Grise on January 18, 2007, 10:48:40 AM
The ‘Harry screws up guns’ thing hasn’t been seen for several novels now, and I sincerely hope it’s something JB has decided to let go to dust. First away, if Harry’s disruption thing is so bad that it can mess up simple chemistry and even simpler mechanical operations, then howinblazes does his car ever work? Orders of magnitude more complex, mechanically, chemically, and electrically speaking…
On the other hand, using a GUN in earnest tends to be a tad more emotionally (and therefore magically) engaging than your average drive in a car. Proximity has a lot to do with it, too. Harry’s actually TOUCHING the gun, generally in his right hand (the hand that projects magical energy) to boot. In fact, the gun is small enough that it’s actually going to be encompassed by his bioelectric field (a very mild, but totally individual field of electromagnetic energy that the human body produces).
The car is a much larger (relative) object that is (relatively) farther away, even when Harry is driving under stress–and even so, the Beetle (and other cars) have broken down on-stage more often than guns have actually jammed on-stage.
And there are other factors involved of which Harry is not entirely aware. Alas, that the viewpoint character is non-omniscient. :)
The rules aren’t changing. The proper circumstances just haven’t all aligned the way they have in the other instances of guns glitching.
Jim
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The purpose of all of these plot points is to limit Harry -- that's not a defect, that's an express purpose, both to keep the stories interesting, and to emulate the old-school noir fiction that DF takes so much inspiration from. Isolating and handicapping your protagonist is a standard for just about any genre -- so that he will have to be strong and clever to overcome those limits.
Off the top of my head I have two:
1) As discussed in another thread, I find the idea that black magic inherently corrupts a person (and as such the Blackstaff is needed for the White Council's dirty jobs) a poor choice. I think the idea works in Molly's disfavor and is honestly less interesting than the idea that such corruption is based on the person using the magic and not vice versa.
It's an intentional limiter. It's a way to force Harry to not blast everything that attacks him. It lets mafia goons stay a significant threat, and makes Harry and others have to measure their actions. If Harry wasn't worried about being corrupted or having the White Council after him, what's stopping him from just fire-blasting every mortal goon who gives him trouble? By making this a limitation, it forces Harry to grow as a character and keeps things interesting without having to go the DBZ route of constantly making everything he faces stronger and stronger.
It's also a way to introduce internal struggle, and create a very real risk to the character. If it was just a White Council prohibition, well, they're not watching him all the time -- he could get away with it constantly, as could Molly. But making it corrupting -- and having Harry already touched by that corruption -- gives him and later Molly something to really struggle with, something that informs and shapes their characters in a way that it just being prohibited would not.
2) Wizards inherently have issues with technology. To be fair, this was presented in a pretty silly way from the start. Harry talks about how he naturally can cause issues with firearms which is ridiculous (although the books do drop this as time goes on). Like I can understand how Wizards can screw with electronics, especially delicate things like computers (as it is computers in our world can have issues with outside energy sources). But guns are pretty simply machines, even the fancy one's. It'd be like if being a wizard meant you'd have cause a bicycle to fail. I could understand that a wizard could, if they try, bend the laws of nature. I mean that's what they do. But to inherently prevent things like combustion or lever or gear or springs (for example) from working is just silly.
As other people have pointed out, it's not a simple electrical-field thing.
That said, for actual tech like cell phones and computers, I feel that wizards being unable to use them is kind of meaningless for the story. Like, the White Council could still be behind the times simply because institutions are slow to change plus most of its members are pretty old (so no one would have thought of Paranet before Harry did). Similarly, Harry can still be on his own early on because for instance no one can get to him in time or he's purposefully keeping them out (which is something I did not care for, but it seemed like Jim intended for it to be a flaw of Harry's so its not an issue).
Meaningless? Far from it. It informs the entire wizarding world of the books and is a reason for why it's shaped the way it is. It's an ongoing, tangible issue that the Wizards' problem with tech is a significant handicap -- if Wizards could just get on planes reliably, the whole plot of Summer Knight comes apart.
Bu the world now is significantly different from the world of 2000 (when the first book came out). So much stuff is online now and even things like newspapers are dying out. It struck me how Harry had to use a pay phone in Storm Front. Now they're non-existent which for the series would make it so much harder for Harry to update/get in touch with others. Like the only way for Harry to make calls is from his house or someone else's (or to do so magically). This ends up cutting him off from his supporting cast to such a significant degree that it seems like it'll cause issues for the stories. Honestly, this doesn't seem to add anything for the story but does cause issues. Plus other series in this vein let their wizards use tech and it doesn't seem to cut off any story potential.
Isolating Harry is the point. Causing issues is the point. He's the hero, which means he has obstacles in his way. Him not being able to just whip out his smart phone to look something up or call an Uber or wikipedia his way to a monster's weakness is another thing that keeps the story interesting and shows how he has to really build his knowledge base.
Life isn't supposed to be easy for Harry in the books. If he could just solve all his problems with a fireball or a smartphone, that just plain is not as interesting to read.
And, going back to the previous point, Harry Dresden's stories are massively influenced by old-school noir detective fiction from the 30s-50s. The limits on technology are an enforcement of that, so that Harry has to go through the same sorts of leg work that old PIs would have.
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What he said^^
From an overarcing point though, the wizards mess with tech is part of the subtle mechanics upon which the world is made. It's explained loosely through TC and GS, specifically shagnasty referring to Harry as 'little spirit caller' and ghosts being able to mess with technology that's farther away from humans. Being the active forces(spirits?) of creation, in a reality that should only be utilized without breaking others free will, magic effects technology for the same reasoning Harry takes a shower after visiting the mothers. Aura bleed off.
Granted, I still find guns to be a bit of an oddity because it should be in their aura too then, but I tend to attribute that to subconscious desires of the wizard, Harry doesn't want his own gun to misfire. He does enjoy destroying tech even if he sometime must quell the urge, his conflict comes from this fact. where not conflicted, like wanting to shoot or not get shot, the confliction doesn't manifest.... Mmm I wonder if this could be tested by comparing two wizards shooting at each other?
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I agree that there are serious issues with some of the black magic interpretations.
Apparently, using black magic, even once with a reasonable cause (self defense) like Harry did against Justin had repercussions on Harry, but in Cold Days as he races from the wild hunt and uses magic to blast a hound the hound turns out to be a human - another use of black magic on Harry's part, but we haven't seen any effect from that.
Additionally, things keep getting redefined in the series as we learn more. Most wizards seem to think it would be fine to kill white court vampires with magic - no black magic twisting them because of it. But over time, we've learned they are scions (per an angel), human enough to become the winter knight, and probably human enough to wield a sword of faith. All things that point to them being human enough that it should be black magic to use magic to kill them, but we've never heard that is the case...
Same argument for the half-reds. They appeared to still be human, with souls and free will, and yet Harry caused the death of thousands of them with the curse, and yet.... no going crazy because of it.
The whole black magic thing appears subjective to the viewpoint of the caster, but then we are told repeatedly that it isn't (both in the books and in WoJ). It doesn't make sense.
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I agree that there are serious issues with some of the black magic interpretations.
Apparently, using black magic, even once with a reasonable cause (self defense) like Harry did against Justin had repercussions on Harry, but in Cold Days as he races from the wild hunt and uses magic to blast a hound the hound turns out to be a human - another use of black magic on Harry's part, but we haven't seen any effect from that.
Well, it's not like one use is like flipping a switch from good to evil, it's a gradual thing. So I don't see an issue with not seeing an instant, visible effect from that usage. It's also probably a matter of degrees.
Plus there's the whole intent and belief thing -- Harry didn't know it was a human when he cast the spell. He didn't decide/believe, "I'm going to kill this human with magic," he thought "I'm going to kill this monster with magic."
That kind of distinction might create some kind of "buffer," given that part of the "corruption" is explicitly that using magic to kill humans means you believe you can use magic to kill humans. A totally-accidental thing like that is still bad, but not as bad as doing it on purpose.
Additionally, things keep getting redefined in the series as we learn more. Most wizards seem to think it would be fine to kill white court vampires with magic - no black magic twisting them because of it. But over time, we've learned they are scions (per an angel), human enough to become the winter knight, and probably human enough to wield a sword of faith. All things that point to them being human enough that it should be black magic to use magic to kill them, but we've never heard that is the case...
Same argument for the half-reds. They appeared to still be human, with souls and free will, and yet Harry caused the death of thousands of them with the curse, and yet.... no going crazy because of it.
The Laws are human biased, yes. It might well be that the cosmic-level of the laws only applies to pure humans.
The whole black magic thing appears subjective to the viewpoint of the caster, but then we are told repeatedly that it isn't (both in the books and in WoJ). It doesn't make sense.
Well, there is the sense that Harry detects a distinct "taint" in black magic users that he doesn't with wizards on the straight and narrow. There is definitely something that happens when a wizard breaks one of the laws.
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The hound turned out to be human but was it really a human? That is not sure. Lots of things look human when dead and he had to be a predator to join.
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Well, there is the sense that Harry detects a distinct "taint" in black magic users that he doesn't with wizards on the straight and narrow. There is definitely something that happens when a wizard breaks one of the laws.
Then why didn't anybody of the senior council, or the hundreds of wizards detect anything about Peabody? Cowl (who is most definitely on the council) Justin DuMorne? I know it said in Grave Peril that you need to touch them to find out for sure, but I hardly think Peabody can get away with not shaking anyone's hands for years.
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Then why didn't anybody of the senior council, or the hundreds of wizards detect anything about Peabody? Cowl (who is most definitely on the council) Justin DuMorne? I know it said in Grave Peril that you need to touch them to find out for sure, but I hardly think Peabody can get away with not shaking anyone's hands for years.
Harry tends to detect it one of two ways -- either by skin-to-skin contact, or when they're actively casting magic at him.
And it might fade -- in Blood Rites, Harry specifically says that the one witch didn't shake his hand because she'd cast black magic recently and wouldn't be able to hide it if he'd touched her hand.
Peabody's hands are probably stained with ink, and every time we see him on-page, he's got a bunch of papers in his hands. I can buy that he could avoid casual skin-to-skin contact. DuMorne was distant enough from Council stuff when he had Harry that Harry didn't know the White Council existed.
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Harry never shows any sign of corruption from tapping into necromancy to raise Sue (OK Luccio lets him get away with that, but it's still the same dark energy, so...) and he hasn't shown any effects from killing Justin since at least WN (if you think Lash was tapping into it) or since way earlier otherwise.
Raising a zombie animal didn't do anything major to his personality because it's not touching the dark energy that inherently causes most of the worst effects, it's believing on a fundamental level that you have the right to use it to enslave a dead person.
And as for effects from killing Justin, are you sure? Harry reflected in GS that his entire career he's dealt with threats by embracing wrath because anger insulated him from being afraid. His control has improved, but that core trait didn't vanish when Lash died.
See, I don't think what killing Justin did to Harry was simply make him more violent in a random way. Harry's reasoning for why it was ok to kill Justin was rooted in because Justin sent the Walker after him and was trying to enthrall him - it was violence in reaction to a threat. And that's how Harry has been dealing with threats ever since, for the most part.
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The Loa Harry calls up talks about the darkness that has stained him (or something like that) and while he says that's mostly other people's staining that's touching him, he admits it's not all other people's doing. Which I took to include him whacking Justin.
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We also don't know if wizards who specialize in subtle magic like Molly can mask other wizards from sensing their dark magic stain. Peabody was probably aided by someone, or something that knows how to cover it up too...
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I think most powerful beings/factions have limitations put on them in the story. I think that it is not random about Wizards messing up tech. I think someone powerful or a powerful faction put this limitation on wizards. Such as the Fae can't lie or their bane is iron. I think a possible explanation is wizards change reality. If reality is becoming less fixed and more fluid, some things can be less reliable and more things can go wrong especially things that are sensitive. Some things explained by Harry in the DF may be because Harry is young and inexperienced and not 100% correct. I was in the Army and shot many weapons. I've had weapons jam on occasion. Some were more reliable than others. I had an M-16 that jammed frequently and I asked the Armorer to change with another one that never seemed to jam (it was a really old one from the Vietnam era vs the unreliable fairly new one). I've had M-60s jam rarely and I've never had an M-2 jam on me. I've also had dud rounds or rounds that even partially exploded and left a bullet in the barrel. That can cause the weapon to explode if you shoot another round without clearing the bullet out of the barrel.
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Harry tends to detect it one of two ways -- either by skin-to-skin contact, or when they're actively casting magic at him.
And it might fade -- in Blood Rites, Harry specifically says that the one witch didn't shake his hand because she'd cast black magic recently and wouldn't be able to hide it if he'd touched her hand.
Peabody's hands are probably stained with ink, and every time we see him on-page, he's got a bunch of papers in his hands. I can buy that he could avoid casual skin-to-skin contact. DuMorne was distant enough from Council stuff when he had Harry that Harry didn't know the White Council existed.
He was a warden. Frequently in the company of other wardens. It's their job, and one of the reasons Harry didn't want to become one. Too many secrets, and that's for a good guy. I agree with you at the peabody thing. I didn't think of it that way.
The Loa Harry calls up talks about the darkness that has stained him (or something like that) and while he says that's mostly other people's staining that's touching him, he admits it's not all other people's doing. Which I took to include him whacking Justin.
She smelled Dark magic on him, and I when he said it's not his, I took it to mean that's the remenants of the dark energy he bit off Leonid Kravos. Yes, the rest include whacking Justin, and a few other nasty stuff.
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He was a warden. Frequently in the company of other wardens. It's their job, and one of the reasons Harry didn't want to become one. Too many secrets, and that's for a good guy. I agree with you at the peabody thing. I didn't think of it that way.
We don't know when Justin went bad, though -- he might not have turned to dark magic until after he left the Wardens.
Thinking about it, what we know of his attempts to enthrall Harry and Elaine may well indicate he wasn't very well versed in it -- he needed Elaine's help to subdue Harry, he had to take them one at a time and planned to restrain Harry physically... and even his enthrallment of Elaine apparently wasn't total, since she sneakily used a binding spell she knew Harry could break.
So in sum, I don't think we can use Justin as an example until or unless we have a better idea of just how often he actually used black magic.
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We don't know when Justin went bad, though -- he might not have turned to dark magic until after he left the Wardens.
I'd think he either went bad when he snuck Bob's skull from the wardens after the fight with Kemmler, leaving them to think it was destroyed, or long before, and he'd been planning a double cross, if he could make it.
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I've got to agree. He was most likely crooked by the time he helped take out Kemmler, otherwise he'd have turned Bob over to the Council at large.
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True, it's as likely as not.
But he could have been "bad" or planning to turn for a long time before he actually broke a law.
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Bob would be a temptation for any wizard.
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Yes, but a warden almost certainly would have some kind of responsibility to turn a danger like Bob over to the relevant authorities. Keeping Bob is like a cop deciding to help himself to the rocket launcher at a militia compound rather than entering it into evidence. Yeah, it's tempting, but actually doing so is a massive violation of their duty. Much moreso for a warden than a regular wizard.
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Yes, but a warden almost certainly would have some kind of responsibility to turn a danger like Bob over to the relevant authorities. Keeping Bob is like a cop deciding to help himself to the rocket launcher at a militia compound rather than entering it into evidence. Yeah, it's tempting, but actually doing so is a massive violation of their duty. Much moreso for a warden than a regular wizard.
Yeah, but wizards -- to a man -- are arrogant bastards who think they can handle anything they come across. I bet a large number of wizards would see Bob and think, "Kemmler used this to do terrible things... but it would be such a waste to destroy it, and I know for certain that I can resist the temptation to use it for evil."
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Yes. But a warden who hasn't gone crooked would (I'm making some assumptions about the rules for wardens here) also say "But I've sworn to turn over such dangerous objects to the Council to be either locked away or destroyed. So I will, because I'm all about upholding the Laws."
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Yes. But a warden who hasn't gone crooked would (I'm making some assumptions about the rules for wardens here) also say "But I've sworn to turn over such dangerous objects to the Council to be either locked away or destroyed. So I will, because I'm all about upholding the Laws."
I dunno... Jim made a good example about wizards and the oblivion war, and how you don't want them anywhere near it because they love to record information. Would someone like Morgan destroy Bob? yeah probably but so many more would wonder the information he had, and want to really figure out what they could learn. It's a strong part of their nature. It's probably a reason why they are able to do magic, their desire for knowledge.
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Yes. Morgan probably would. Because he's a warden. I'm not arguing all the wizards would. Probably a lot of them wouldn't.
But a warden, tasked with doing things like shutting down what Kemmler wants to do, enforcing the laws (and will of the Council) probably would.
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Yes. Morgan probably would. Because he's a warden. I'm not arguing all the wizards would. Probably a lot of them wouldn't.
But a warden, tasked with doing things like shutting down what Kemmler wants to do, enforcing the laws (and will of the Council) probably would.
I don't think all or most warden's have Morgan's devoutness. If Morgan held the same sort of belief in God as he seemed to hold for the Laws, and the White Council I think he probably would be one of the wizard Saint's Jim talked about.
I think what we should first ask is what is required to become a warden in the first place? Times were kind of desperate but even someone as young as Carlos became a warden, and he was really young. Their system of getting wardens can't be too incredibly stringent. Full fledged wizard, void of black magic stain, makes an oath to the Council or something and they probably get in.
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It was a crisis just like during dead beat. Some wardens really chose for the carreer but some wizards with the right type of magic were probably just conscripted, the council does that when necessary. Some wardens probably didn’t even want to become a warden.
If Elaine had not botched Ramirez test she would have been made a warden in no time.
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I'd like to see a source for the idea that Justin only became a warden like Harry did, as part of a crisis. He took out Kemmler, sure. But nothing I remember reading suggests that was his first time at the rodeo. And if he was crooked long before then, becoming a warden would be a great advantage to him in terms of authority and access.
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Recall the WOJ that a lot of wizards are sitting on offers of power like Harry's been offered, and are just sitting on them for a rainy day.
Yes, Morgan would destroy Bob -- but that has as much to do with him being a fanatic as it is with being a Warden.
I'm not saying Justin was a pure and righteous soul -- we all know he went bad. I'm just saying, we don't know that he actually cast any black magic while he was in the company of the wardens.
Or hell, maybe he killed a bunch of Kemmler's apprentices in "self defense" with black magic during the battle, and that nudged him just enough to decide to take Bob.
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Not a mistake, just something that a lot of people misunderstand.
Also, I just re-read the early books, and the two instances I noticed of guns failing destructively (Greg Beckitt in Sells' house at the end of SF, and one of Bianca's goons in the confrontation at the end of GP) were in environments/situations with much more magic present than just Harry's proximity -- Sells' house was the site of a big thaumaturgical spell, and Bianca's place was the center of a major effort to thin the barrier between the Nevernever and the mortal world.
Murphy's gun doesn't mess up just because Harry is standing nearby.
Apparently, using black magic, even once with a reasonable cause (self defense) like Harry did against Justin had repercussions on Harry, but in Cold Days as he races from the wild hunt and uses magic to blast a hound the hound turns out to be a human - another use of black magic on Harry's part, but we haven't seen any effect from that.
Well, Harry killed MacFinn the loup-garou with magic back in book 2, and that doesn't seem to have counted -- because MacFinn was a monster, not a human, right then. Harry's also killed at least one Denarian with magic, with no apparent repercussions, and he discussed that fight with Luccio afterwards; the Laws never came up. It seems that beings with human souls who are "in monster mode" at the time don't count.
Additionally, things keep getting redefined in the series as we learn more. Most wizards seem to think it would be fine to kill white court vampires with magic - no black magic twisting them because of it. But over time, we've learned they are scions (per an angel), human enough to become the winter knight, and probably human enough to wield a sword of faith. All things that point to them being human enough that it should be black magic to use magic to kill them, but we've never heard that is the case...
And Harry does kill one with magic (Madrigal Raith) with another Warden (Carlos) watching, and it's never brought up. WCV's pretty clearly do not count. Why not is a big, big open question though...
Although, Mab says Thomas is human enough to be Winter Knight because he's in love. I don't think any random WCV could be... definitely not one like Madeline who is totally controlled by their hunger, and probably not one like Lara who is partnered with it. (I guess you could argue that Lara, sometime, could choose to live like Thomas though. I think Madeline was past that point though.)
The whole black magic thing appears subjective to the viewpoint of the caster, but then we are told repeatedly that it isn't (both in the books and in WoJ). It doesn't make sense.
Well, I think there's more than one kind of subjectivity here. It won't be non-corrupting just because you believe it's right or because you meant well. (Instead, you'll just end up doing more and more black magic to 'make things better'.) But there might be some room for subjectivity in other areas.
IE, a wizard who really knew Thomas as a person might be corrupted by frying him, whereas another wizard who just met him as a WCV across a dueling ground wouldn't be -- because the first guy would then have to deal with "well, this guy is a pure human, but he's way more evil, why can't I just fry him?"
IMO the corruption has to do with the direct act of will required to use magic. If a faerie put a glamour over a human to make them look like an attacking Black Court Vampire, a wizard who then fried them might not necessarily be corrupted, because the act of will involved was "kill that vampire" not "kill a person".
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Recall the WOJ that a lot of wizards are sitting on offers of power like Harry's been offered, and are just sitting on them for a rainy day.
Yes, Morgan would destroy Bob -- but that has as much to do with him being a fanatic as it is with being a Warden.
I'm not saying Justin was a pure and righteous soul -- we all know he went bad. I'm just saying, we don't know that he actually cast any black magic while he was in the company of the wardens.
Or hell, maybe he killed a bunch of Kemmler's apprentices in "self defense" with black magic during the battle, and that nudged him just enough to decide to take Bob.
Perhaps one of Kemmler's minions did a bodyswap with him like they did with Luccio, except Justin died and the Necromancer got a new body and identity.
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I'd like to see a source for the idea that Justin only became a warden like Harry did, as part of a crisis. He took out Kemmler, sure. But nothing I remember reading suggests that was his first time at the rodeo. And if he was crooked long before then, becoming a warden would be a great advantage to him in terms of authority and access.
There is not enough information. We are talking possible scenario's here.
Justin could have been crooked all the time but a position as a warden might actually be a perfect position to get crooked. Or if he was crooked a crisis like this might have been the perfect time to join the wardens with lower standards and less oversight.
Or he was more or less forced but even that would go into the books as volunteered, just like Harry.
The point is that we do not have to expect high standards from the average warden during a crisis, just normal wizard standards. Justin did probably resign after Kemmler's death to do research which suggests his heart was not really into it anyway.
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There is not enough information. We are talking possible scenario's here.
Justin could have been crooked all the time but a position as a warden might actually be a perfect position to get crooked. Or if he was crooked a crisis like this might have been the perfect time to join the wardens with lower standards and less oversight.
Or he was more or less forced but even that would go into the books as volunteered, just like Harry.
The point is that we do not have to expect high standards from the average warden during a crisis, just normal wizard standards. Justin did probably resign after Kemmler's death to do research which suggests his heart was not really into it anyway.
Yes, consider, once a wizard was established on the White Council, then if he or she applies for or is asked to be a warden, unless he or she did something overt, who'd know? Most experienced wizards know how to avoid soul gazes, Harry talks of avoiding any accidental ones after the first two or three books. A really skilled wizard can even hide a lot of facts about his or herself, Harry had no clue about who Eb really was though they did soul gaze when they met. That is why he was so shocked when he found out that Eb was the Council's assassin... Wizards are not allowed to otherwise go into each other's minds, that would be breaking one of the Laws... In the case of the wardens who do soul gazes for evidence, if it is a young would be warlock, he or she is going to get the chop most of the time anyway so it is doubtful even if they said they saw something they'd be believed..
So yeah, very easy for a wizard gone bad to bide his or her time in plain sight..
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A really skilled wizard can even hide a lot of facts about his or herself, Harry had no clue about who Eb really was though they did soul gaze when they met.
He saw the real Eb. The Blackstaff protected him from dark magical staining that occurs in warlocks. Eb didn't hide who he really is, Harry saw the real man. I see Eb kind of like the Rambo character in the movies. Yes he's incredibly good at killing, but he takes absolutely no joy in it. He hates it. He does it because he thinks he has no choice, or is pushed so hard he needs to do it. Harry most likely saw a strong man who is dedicated to justice, a protector, and of great power, and who's suffered great pain. None of those tell you he's an assassin until you find out and then can connect the dots for justice, protection, power, and pain.
As for Justin. My guess would be that as an apprentice to a Senior Council member that he was let in without too much question. He was probably an ambitious man. When he discovered Bob, those ambitions grew because he had access to some of the most powerful magic known. The laws began to appear as obstacles that someone like himself shouldn't have to abide by.
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As for Justin. My guess would be that as an apprentice to a Senior Council member that he was let in without too much question. He was probably an ambitious man. When he discovered Bob, those ambitions grew because he had access to some of the most powerful magic known. The laws began to appear as obstacles that someone like himself shouldn't have to abide by.
Oh yeah, that's a good point and I forgot about it entirely.
Someone who's a direct apprentice to someone so high up would probably not be scrutinized too carefully most of the time.
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Yes. Morgan probably would. Because he's a warden. I'm not arguing all the wizards would. Probably a lot of them wouldn't.
But a warden, tasked with doing things like shutting down what Kemmler wants to do, enforcing the laws (and will of the Council) probably would.
I can see Carlos potentially keeping the skull and using Bob for good, if he came across it under the right circumstances. It wouldn't be the first time he took the position that the Senior Council were a bunch of overly conservative old fools (mutinying in Changes), and/or that what they didn't know (hunt for the 'Black Hats') wouldn't hurt them.
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Throwing in my 2 cents on the wizards with tech subject.
Doesnt Harry state that the magic/tech issue comes from people being conflicted and that creating a magic field around them due to dissonance? Also I believe it is also stated that belief is very important when it comes to magic. Therefore could the technology effect be something like "if they believe it should work it will" semi borrowing the system from Ilona Andrews books where technology that people think is like magic doesnt really get affected by magic. I.E. Harry expects complicated phones to fail and electrical lights however he expects his car to work so the internal combustion engine is fine.
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Throwing in my 2 cents on the wizards with tech subject.
Doesnt Harry state that the magic/tech issue comes from people being conflicted and that creating a magic field around them due to dissonance? Also I believe it is also stated that belief is very important when it comes to magic. Therefore could the technology effect be something like "if they believe it should work it will" semi borrowing the system from Ilona Andrews books where technology that people think is like magic doesnt really get affected by magic. I.E. Harry expects complicated phones to fail and electrical lights however he expects his car to work so the internal combustion engine is fine.
I think it has more to do with the human condition. Humans are always conflicted. Always have little thoughts flying around our brains at all times of the day. Combine that with magical energy and it would be a magical field that's always in flux.
Now I'm thinking if Jim wants he will be able to make adjustments. He said that wizards with age become more set in their ways... Could this mean an older, more mature wizard could use electronics because they are more "stable"? I don't know but I could see Jim leaving that loophole. The older wizards don't use them because they don't like them. However Harry is getting older, maybe in a few books he will be less destructive to electronics.
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He saw the real Eb. The Blackstaff protected him from dark magical staining that occurs in warlocks. Eb didn't hide who he really is, Harry saw the real man. I see Eb kind of like the Rambo character in the movies. Yes he's incredibly good at killing, but he takes absolutely no joy in it. He hates it. He does it because he thinks he has no choice, or is pushed so hard he needs to do it. Harry most likely saw a strong man who is dedicated to justice, a protector, and of great power, and who's suffered great pain. None of those tell you he's an assassin until you find out and then can connect the dots for justice, protection, power, and pain.
Also, while a soulgaze always gives you true information, it doesn't tell you everything about someone... when Harry soulgazes Marcone in SF, he finds out that Marcone is driven by some secret, but he doesn't learn what it is. Harry might have seen that Eb felt guilty about something, but no more.
It also seems to be influenced by what you're looking for (when Harry soulgazes Molly, he sees a bunch of possible futures because he's trying to find out if she's over-the-edge corrupted; other soulgazes, like Marcone's, don't show possible futures). So if Harry was looking for "will Eb really protect me" he might have gotten confirmation of that rather than any of the Blackstaff stuff.
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Also, while a soulgaze always gives you true information, it doesn't tell you everything about someone... when Harry soulgazes Marcone in SF, he finds out that Marcone is driven by some secret, but he doesn't learn what it is. Harry might have seen that Eb felt guilty about something, but no more.
It also seems to be influenced by what you're looking for (when Harry soulgazes Molly, he sees a bunch of possible futures because he's trying to find out if she's over-the-edge corrupted; other soulgazes, like Marcone's, don't show possible futures). So if Harry was looking for "will Eb really protect me" he might have gotten confirmation of that rather than any of the Blackstaff stuff.
Also Harry was a sixteen year old kid at the time, little experience with soul gazes or how to interpret what he was seeing in the first place.
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Soulgaze obviously doesn't tell you everything... Harry didn't even get that Eb was his grandfather from it!
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Soulgaze obviously doesn't tell you everything... Harry didn't even get that Eb was his grandfather from it!
Exactly, or if you are an old enough, powerful enough, well trained enough, you can hide a lot of stuff. Actually when you think about it, wardens may have this skill because they do soul gaze as evidence a lot. I can see where they might not want to completely open themselves up to a warlock or some other evil person.. Knowledge is power and then if that person got off or escaped would potentially hold a lot over them..
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Exactly, or if you are an old enough, powerful enough, well trained enough, you can hide a lot of stuff. Actually when you think about it, wardens may have this skill because they do soul gaze as evidence a lot. I can see where they might not want to completely open themselves up to a warlock or some other evil person.. Knowledge is power and then if that person got off or escaped would potentially hold a lot over them..
Yes to the part where it does not give you everything (or really anything factually specific like vocation or genealogy), but I really dont think there is any way to actively Hide things during it, that's basically the whole Big Deal with the Sight and Soulgazes. A big clue to that for me is that an Angel's only choice was to Shut Down ghost Harry's Sight to protect him, he couldnt simply obfuscate his weapon.
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Yes to the part where it does not give you everything (or really anything factually specific like vocation or genealogy), but I really dont think there is any way to actively Hide things during it, that's basically the whole Big Deal with the Sight and Soulgazes. A big clue to that for me is that an Angel's only choice was to Shut Down ghost Harry's Sight to protect him, he couldnt simply obfuscate his weapon.
There is no real control about what you see or not, for both parties. Though some things are possible as Margaret showed in blood rites.
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There is no real control about what you see or not, for both parties. Though some things are possible as Margaret showed in blood rites.
That's a good point, Maggie was able to tie a message spell into it. And perhaps more relevant as a counter-argument to mine, Molly was able to initiate mental combat via a Soulgaze, which was in no small part all about Hiding from the other.
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That's a good point, Maggie was able to tie a message spell into it. And perhaps more relevant as a counter-argument to mine, Molly was able to initiate mental combat via a Soulgaze, which was in no small part all about Hiding from the other.
Red court vampires can do a lot of things when you try to soulgaze them.
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Red court vampires can do a lot of things when you try to soulgaze them.
Red Court Vampires can do a lot of things when you Look Them In The Eye. They cannot be part of a Soulgaze at all.
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Red Court Vampires can do a lot of things when you Look Them In The Eye. They cannot be part of a Soulgaze at all.
I did not say it was a soul gaze but it is an attack via the same channel and probably some things are similar.
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That's a good point, Maggie was able to tie a message spell into it. And perhaps more relevant as a counter-argument to mine, Molly was able to initiate mental combat via a Soulgaze, which was in no small part all about Hiding from the other.
If she was able to do that, then one would think she'd be able to hide what she was about as well.
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If she was able to do that, then one would think she'd be able to hide what she was about as well.
Might be easier to add something than suppress something.
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Might be easier to add something than suppress something.
That might be true, feels like it fits. The other thing about that whole scene is that I think makes it a particularly strange occurrence is what the Corpsetaker was at that point: was she a normal Ghost, or a disembodied Soul like Harry was?
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Also the Laws don't seem to have been quite nailed down in the early books, which makes some of Morgan's stuff seem even more arbitrary.
I do agree with this. The Laws were a little looser around the edges back in the day. For ex, when Harry summoned Chaunzogorroth in Fool Moon, there was an implication in their discussion that Harry was pressing against the Seventh Law. But the Seventh Law, as explored later in the books, it all about Outsiders. It doesn't even touch on demon-summoning, which the Council allows (they may frown on it, but they don't forbid it).
Regarding whether the Laws and the effects of black magic match, JB himself has said specifically that the Laws don't perfectly match the natural consequences of using black magic, they're an approximation. They probably cover the heart of it, but not all the special cases and edges and grey areas.
For ex, Harry probably did take a little taint for animating Sue, but not a whole lot because she's not human and not a sapient being. Doing that with a human would be orders of magnitude worse, and that's why it's out-Lawed.
The Council even allows a few edge cases specifically, like sleep spells for healing purposes, that touches on the edge of mind control, but apparently not far enough to be too dangerous. Harry makes a reference in one of the early books to an 'unlicensed' mind fog spell, which implies that the Council allows those too, in special cases.
Is there taint from using magic to kill a WCV? Probably, at least some. Maybe not as much as with a pure mortal, though. The Laws don't fit perfectly across all the grey areas.
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Oh, she was, some. Not as much as she would have been had circumstances been worse, but there were some effects. She got angry more easily, and was constantly fighting the temptation to do more. But her intentions were mostly good, and she did likely save Rosie's baby from being born addicted, she took the first steps down the dark road but Harry got to her in time.
Had things gone on in that direction for six months, or a year, or 18 months, before Harry found out...the outcome might have been rather different.
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Also Harry was a sixteen year old kid at the time, little experience with soul gazes or how to interpret what he was seeing in the first place.
I think that's important. The Soulgaze may tell you the truth, and maybe the whole truth (depending on how long it lasts), but it doesn't guarantee your ability to understand that truth, or recognize it. Ditto using the Sight.
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That might be true, feels like it fits.
I was talking about the Harry-Thomas soul gaze but it fits Molly as well I suppose.
The other thing about that whole scene is that I think makes it a particularly strange occurrence is what the Corpsetaker was at that point: was she a normal Ghost, or a disembodied Soul like Harry was?
Definitely a disembodied soul like Harry. You get it quite clear if you read Lea’s explanation about corpstaker just after you finish the book.
She makes it clear that if Corpstaker would acquire a body she would be alive again, not some ghost possessing someone.
“When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”
Also I don’t think Uriel would be that interested in damning a mere ghost, it is soul’s the angels are interested in. For that reason I think Stu was probably not a ghost either.
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Yes to the part where it does not give you everything (or really anything factually specific like vocation or genealogy), but I really dont think there is any way to actively Hide things during it, that's basically the whole Big Deal with the Sight and Soulgazes. A big clue to that for me is that an Angel's only choice was to Shut Down ghost Harry's Sight to protect him, he couldnt simply obfuscate his weapon.
I agree, as for the part about adding something, that might be possible with careful planning and a direct link of mother to son. (I still think the part of the message from Maggie is a bit far fetched) The Fallen Angel, caught unawares with the gaze, had nothing to defend itself except shutting down the connection. I doubt it'd be able to hide anyway.
That still, I don't see what it had to worry about, probably the sight of it's true self would have left Harry a gibbering wreck (Shagnasty) and ripe for plucking.
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I agree, as for the part about adding something, that might be possible with careful planning and a direct link of mother to son. (I still think the part of the message from Maggie is a bit far fetched) The Fallen Angel, caught unawares with the gaze, had nothing to defend itself except shutting down the connection. I doubt it'd be able to hide anyway.
That still, I don't see what it had to worry about, probably the sight of it's true self would have left Harry a gibbering wreck (Shagnasty) and ripe for plucking.
It is not like shagnasty. It worried about the impact on Harry.
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I agree, as for the part about adding something, that might be possible with careful planning and a direct link of mother to son. (I still think the part of the message from Maggie is a bit far fetched) The Fallen Angel, caught unawares with the gaze, had nothing to defend itself except shutting down the connection. I doubt it'd be able to hide anyway.
That still, I don't see what it had to worry about, probably the sight of it's true self would have left Harry a gibbering wreck (Shagnasty) and ripe for plucking.
It wasnt a Fallen Angel, it was the guardian angel in the lobby of Cpt. Jack's police station. It would have damaged Harry, and I suspect that it would have been far more sever than Shaggy (who was still pretty damn severe).
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The guardian angel closed Harry's sight, not a soul gaze. I was referring to that scene in the alley with Michael, Shiro and Sanya saving Harry in the end.
Looks like I didn't read your posts thoroughly enough, sorry.
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That might be true, feels like it fits. The other thing about that whole scene is that I think makes it a particularly strange occurrence is what the Corpsetaker was at that point: was she a normal Ghost, or a disembodied Soul like Harry was?
Disembodied soul, I think... I think the implication is that the Corpsetaker is attempting the same return-from-death trick that Kemmler used multiple times.
Although it might be hard to tell, someone like that probably doesn't have much left that a regular human would recognize as a soul any more...
I think the "southbound train" bit when the Grey Ghost-Corpsetaker is finally taken down clinches the issue, though... if she can go to Hell she must be a real soul, not just an echo-ghost.
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I can't remember, is there anything that says its Butters soul that's been trapped waiting to dissipate? I've always figured the act of taking the body would somehow allow the rebirth... or mayhaps a future feeding upon human sacrifice/soul power itself? But I just considered, what if she forces out the spirit/consciousness but the soul stays with the body in a reverse sort of soul steal technique?
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The guardian angel closed Harry's sight, not a soul gaze. I was referring to that scene in the alley with Michael, Shiro and Sanya saving Harry in the end.
Looks like I didn't read your posts thoroughly enough, sorry.
Probably my fault, I generally consider the Sight and Soulgazes to be two effects of the same ability, since Soulgazes are referred to as Sight (by harry in BR when he saw his mother) and are similarly indelible. But it's a connection I always make but many do not.
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Probably my fault, I generally consider the Sight and Soulgazes to be two effects of the same ability, since Soulgazes are referred to as Sight (by harry in BR when he saw his mother) and are similarly indelible. But it's a connection I always make but many do not.
They're definitely related (The RPG rulebook has them as separate powers, but if you take both you get one for free), but distinct.
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I see the Sight as the CliffNotes version of the Soulgaze.
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I see the Sight as the CliffNotes version of the Soulgaze.
Probably not a bad comparison. I tend to see it is 'inside/outside', that is, the Sight lets you see the outside of someone's soul, as when Harry saw Murphy's 'protective/angelic' imagery. The soulgaze lets you see inside someone's soul.
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The biggest mistake, I think, was the unnecessarily adversarial relationship between Murphy and Harry, up to halfway through Summer Knight. Murphy's an antagonist for the first few books, and I think it hurt, rather than helped, the story. Thankfully, Jim realized that it was getting old and nixed that conflict with in-universe justification; we actually got to see that shake out on the page, for which I'm grateful. (Too many other authors would just have the character change between books and add a line of dialogue to say, "Yeah, well, I trust you now because of some reasons I have.")
The other thing that was dated, and looks like is now gone: the Two Lines, No Waiting aspect of the early books. Harry's constantly jumping back and forth between cases (until, inevitably, they're revealed to be intimately related) for several books. I think that's gone for the most part, at least since Turn Coat, and I'm happy about it. It lets Jim write more focused, tighter, and effective stories when he's not juggling as much.
I don't think they were necessarily a mistake; they worked okay, but, for example, Skin Game is a much more fluid narrative by comparison.
In terms of the rules of how the Dresden Files Universe operates: honestly, not much I can point to that's particularly inconsistent. Magic A is Magic A, and that's been the case from Storm Front. Jim very clearly sat down and figured out what magic was, how it worked, and what Harry could do with it, and he did that before he wrote a word. The Laws of Magic have indeed shifted (much like what a Steadholder was from Furies of Calderon to Academ's Fury), but they're pretty consistent after Summer Knight.
I can't think of any examples where magic did something it shouldn't have been able to, but maybe my old brain is leaking again. The closest is Bob refusing to listen to Harry in Storm Front, despite Harry having ownership of his Skull. Harry rips up some of his desperately needed cash because Bob was being ornery.
Miscellaneous Others:
1. Harry constantly being broke. That got real old, real fast, at least for me. I'm not saying he should've been rolling in it, but a big chunk of the first several books deals with Harry trying to figure out how to pay his freaking rent. This stopped being an issue from Proven Guilty on, thankfully. I get the purpose; Harry lacked resources, and that made him less effective. But...c'mon.
2. Susan. I didn't like her from the start, and didn't start to like her after she was half-turned. I felt nothing when she died, except a bit of sympathy for Harry—but again, that's not sympathy for Susan. To me, if you show up to a vampire party, you should expect to be eaten. I didn't get their relationship, and I think Jim realized some of that (along with his "Lois Lane" remark about her character). I think if the books had focused more on her character and what she was up to, what she wanted, and her motivation for doing the things she did, I'd probably feel differently. But that would've dragged down the story in other ways, so meh.
I'm really scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of criticism, here. There is very little that I can point to in the series as bad. Even the writing for the first few books is, you know, fine, if a bit inexperienced (the best way I can describe Storm Front is that it very much reads like an author's first book). The worst I can say about Storm Front/Fool Moon/Grave Peril is that each scene was essentially, "I went to a place, and a thing happened. I left that place." But he moved past that quickly. And pretty much all of my petty little gripes were "fixed" (from my perspective; others will very likely disagree with me).
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Re: In Hindsight, These Story Choices Were a Mistake
« Reply #68 on: Today at 05:05:36 PM »
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The biggest mistake, I think, was the unnecessarily adversarial relationship between Murphy and Harry, up to halfway through Summer Knight. Murphy's an antagonist for the first few books, and I think it hurt, rather than helped, the story
It was necessary to set up the MM world with Murphy as a main foil, Can't exemplify something in her personality if it wasn't there to begin with. Jim made sure early on it could go either way, hence it's aft GP she really lightens up..
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Ghost Story, the whole book. Although I liked Mort's arc. The story has been done better, by Dickens.
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I agree that there are serious issues with some of the black magic interpretations.
Apparently, using black magic, even once with a reasonable cause (self defense) like Harry did against Justin had repercussions on Harry, but in Cold Days as he races from the wild hunt and uses magic to blast a hound the hound turns out to be a human - another use of black magic on Harry's part, but we haven't seen any effect from that.
Additionally, things keep getting redefined in the series as we learn more. Most wizards seem to think it would be fine to kill white court vampires with magic - no black magic twisting them because of it. But over time, we've learned they are scions (per an angel), human enough to become the winter knight, and probably human enough to wield a sword of faith. All things that point to them being human enough that it should be black magic to use magic to kill them, but we've never heard that is the case...
Same argument for the half-reds. They appeared to still be human, with souls and free will, and yet Harry caused the death of thousands of them with the curse, and yet.... no going crazy because of it.
The whole black magic thing appears subjective to the viewpoint of the caster, but then we are told repeatedly that it isn't (both in the books and in WoJ). It doesn't make sense.
It make sense if we consider one fact. "Nobody's perfect"
Not Harry, and not the white council. In book 1, and during the early parts of the series, Harry is a punk wizard. He is a kid. He knows very little and part of the things he knows is either incomplete or downright wrong. As Harry matures, this misconceptions is corrected thus the changes. And Harry truly matures. Unlike many other Urban fantasies, the DV timeline is more then 15 years with a lot of life changing events and revealed secrets presented.
The white council is also not all knowing. It is confirmed that what the council considered as violation of the 7 laws may not actually be black magic. A lot of them overlapped, but it is definitely not precise representation. In other words, the council's 7 laws is not the Heavenly laws.