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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Snark Knight on August 22, 2020, 06:07:23 PM
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/iekfx9/im_jim_butcher_author_of_the_dresden_files_ama/
The most interesting ones were probably:
- Both Sidhe courts' knights were in opposition to Napoleon. Summer backing Nelson and Winter backing Wellington. Not entirely sure from the wording if they were the Knights personally, or the Knights were lieutenants of them.
- Both of Bob's parents have appeared in the DF.
- Lea has taken part in the Wild Hunt but not led it. His description of that was great.
Lea has been a part of the Hunt many times, tho she makes the Goblins a little nervous--her hounds are particularly likely to turn on a careless Huntsman, and she laughs the whooooooolllllllle time.
Lea hasn't led the Hunt herself, and she's thirsty for it, but the Erlking and Kringle have had it mostly sewn up for the past thousand years, and before that she didn't have the stature. Now her witless godchild has gotten that honor, and she's still in line? It's all about who you've killed who they know, not what you've killed that they know.
- Fix and Lily were not romantically involved. Fix and Sarissa are, secretly, and within her role's boundaries.
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- Fix and Lily were not romantically involved. Fix and Sarissa are, secretly, and within her role's boundaries.
Now that one I would never have guessed. Implication being I guess that Fix's relationship to Lily was more of a big brother type thing. I wonder if he had been seeing Sarissa on the side before she received the mantle?
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[–]LooseBoysenberry7 105 points 5 hours ago
Just want to say thank you for getting these books out here this year. So, so good to see Harry back in action and makes for perfect quarantine/newborn baby on the chest reading!
What sorts of things have you been reading and enjoying lately?
[–]jimbutcherauthorAMA Author Jim Butcher 138 points 4 hours ago
I've been rereading the Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny. They were highly influential to Dresden, and if you haven't read them, you probably should. They're old pulp novels, so they clock in around 75k words, lean and quick.
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This question and answer has been in two other Q & A’s this year. I wish people would research things.
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You did miss quite a bit about what happens if you seek to get over familiar with the Ladies.
It did confirm that Carlos got off lightly i.e. he kept his genitals when Molly, ahem, cold cocked him.
The other point is that you try the same on the Summer Lady and you fall asleep (before, not immediately after). One of the posters suggested Rip Van Winkle, but this is common in mythology, there are even legends attached to King Harold about him not dying in 1066, but instead sleeping for when it is time to throw throw off the Norman yolk. We know from PT Mab rode with William the Conqueror and was likely Winter Lady at that point. Something caused the split between the sisters in 1066, so did Summer back Harold and got one in the eye?
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" How old are the Unseelie Accords? They are Mab's accords, and she hasn't been in charge forever, after all. "
The Accords are fairly recent: they were signed when Dresden was a young man, before he went independent as a detective.
I believe this was debated on the forums years ago, whether they were just updated recently (and had been around for centuries or even millennia) or were actually a new invention.
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And the implication that because they only happened in Dresden's early days in Chicago...the Accords were addressing an immediate issue. Perhaps Dresden himself?
Plenty of juicy info. Just as telling which questions he avoided though I think. Also, pretty sure Jim got pissed off and left the AMA early because someone got political with him. I mean, it IS an AMA so it's fair to ask whatever...but their is a convention of sticking to the point. I think pissing him off achieved nothing and ruins it for the rest of us.
The AMA puts an end to the old debate about power levels between Faerie Queens and Angels.
" Are Mab and Titania equal to the Archangels in terms of raw power? What about the Mothers?"
Nowhere close. Like, /nowhere/ close. Angels are so far beyond a being like Mab that there's just no comparison to be made. Mab might be able to, if she really worked at it, enchant the world into an ice age. But an angel could destroy the SUN.
I mean, for you and me, there's no difference between them. But relative to one another, there's a HUGE difference. The angels have far more power.
But.
Mab has far more /freedom/ in what she can do with her power. Bigger and stronger doesn't mean you win the fight all by itself. Ask a hawk the next time you see it being run out of town by songbirds. Mab might have less muscle, but she can actually apply her muscle to a huge variety of situations--angels exist behind limits hardwired into their very beings.
Angels are, in this instance, kind of like a super powerful AI. Within the world of the computer, it's not a force that can be effectively resisted. It runs the place.
But that same AI can only do what it's been told to do--and Mab is a user with mid-level admin access. She can't command or delete those AIs, but she knows why they were made, how they work--and how to get around them if necessary.
Mab isn't stronger than an angel. But she is, in most situations, far more powerful.
Curiously, he doesn't address the Mothers. But I would say even they are only Angel level at most. Archangel's seem to be on a whole other scale.
Also:
" Just wanted to ask if we'll ever see the angels that guard Michael in action! I love the hints you drop that they're insanely strong!"
788888888888888888888888888888p0000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000------
^---When I started answering this question, my foster cat Fenris immediately came over and determinedly typed this.
Study your math, kids. Key to the universe.
But MY answer was going to be to say that angelic powers simply exist on an order of magnitude beyond that of anything happening on a level a mortal could understand. I mean, who actually has more power in a production: the lead character, or the lowly stage hand who is running his lights and audio. That person playing the character might get the limelight, but the dude in all black is running the show.
A lowly footsoldier angel is a power of an order of magnitude greater than all the local-scale supernatural beings we've seen in the Dresden Files put together. I mean, it wouldn't be a fight. The angel wins, hands down.
Except the angel wouldn't ever win, because more than likely the angel would never be allowed to fight. It's a being of such power that it exists behind strict walls of control, limits beyond which it simply cannot, by its very nature, tread. When an angel IS allowed to smite something, you get rains of fire, flaming cities and pillars of salt. But mostly they are epic beings for epic times and epic actions. It isn't their place to interfere in the lives of the beings of the universe--angels exist to preserve the nature and order of that universe just so all those little beings can do what they do.
Uriel is being a cheeky bugger and taking terrible chances, doing what he is with the Swords, trying to get involved in mortal affairs without actually getting involved. Only Lucifer has danced that close to the line before, and that one didn't work out so well.
Why is Uriel taking chances the other Archangel's are not? Is he desperate? Is Heaven losing the war?
Further, while it has been implied that the vaguely Judeo-Christian theology is paramount I do hope Jim goes further in text to explaining why that is. It is hardly the oldest religion, especially in it's current form.
Also, not Jim's best analogy. Worked in both film and theatre at various points. By and large, those lead actors have a LOT more say. Maybe in really small productions people respect the "lowly" sound and lighting techies etc. But honestly once things have actual money involved things revolve around those crazy actors. Anyone with enough celebrity almost has their own gravitational pull. Which isn't to say they are the biggest fish around...
Another good one:
"In multiple instances throughout the books, lifeforce and the soul have been said to be the same thing. Even Thomas has said that he rips off pieces of people's souls and eats them. If a white court vampire devours the entirety of a person's lifeforce, killing them, does that mean that person's soul is gone forever?"
They are and are not the same thing. Think of them as a mixture. Your soul and your life's energy exist in the same place and at the same time--that's what makes you, you, the combination of what can be measured, your physical body and all its attendant matter and energy, with what cannot be quantified--things like kindness and mercy and love, or selfishness and indifference.
Thomas devours the life-energy and with it he often gets pieces off the soul as well. (That's the part that burns, when the soul has a certain kind of energetic resonance.) The White Court LOVES to get all dramatic and talk about devouring souls, but it's only kind of technically true. And while the two are connected, life energy is merely measurable: it can be manipulated and devoured--but the soul can only be returned to its ultimate source, sooner or later, one way or another.
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Another good one:
Wonder how that relates to Harry the soul-ghost. Was he just wasting away his life energy, and his soul was still essentially 'safe' to go to the afterlife if need be?
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Why is Uriel taking chances the other Archangel's are not? Is he desperate? Is Heaven losing the war?
Further, while it has been implied that the vaguely Judeo-Christian theology is paramount I do hope Jim goes further in text to explaining why that is. It is hardly the oldest religion, especially in it's current form.
And will we see it blow up in his face as the BAT approaches?
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but the soul can only be returned to its ultimate source, sooner or later, one way or another
I think this answers it, and any other issues. At the end of the day wherever souls come from is where they finally end up. The Source. Maybe it's TWG, maybe something else. Jim has often said souls are essentially eternal, which fits into the basically Judeo-Christian structure the whole Dresden Files has. I don't think they can really be destroyed as such. Part's of its byproduct can, in certain circumstances, be changed a little. I guess that's the point. But the whole thing eventually just ends up back where it started (which was before the meat suit it happened to be attached to).
And will we see it blow up in his face as the BAT approaches?
I hope so. I wouldn't mind a bit more risk. If Uriel was to Fall, would he join Lucifer? I doubt it. I suspect he would form a third team. Who knows? Perhaps he is meant to. Even Uriel doesn't know everything.
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The stage hand is also the origination of the ninja wearing all black, slinking out of the darkness and killing a main character. So in that way it's still apt.
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Several someone’s pissed Jim off by posting a huge list of questions.
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Oh man, that Thomas soul question brings up sooo many theories or adds to them...
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Several someone’s pissed Jim off by posting a huge list of questions.
Yeah, I thought I was pushing my luck throwing a two-parter into the question list. Some people just have no boundaries.
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It’s just majorly impolite to go in with a huge list of questions, I have had Jim as a GoH at a convention and its just not done. its like the guy I saw at a Terry Brooks signing who brought 40 odd books, it was a long queue, Brooks was there for a limited time and he clearly expected to take a third of the signing time himself disappointing dozens of other fans in the queue. He hadn’t even bought the new book because it was in hardback and too expensive for him.
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I think Uriel simply likes humanity, that is why he takes those risks.
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So I have a question. Given the stated power and purpose of angels... Why aren't they guarding the outer gate?
If the outsiders get in, will the whole world be destroyed except one house with a very nice yard and white picket fence?
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So reality can be repopulated by Maggie and Young Harry.
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Several someone’s pissed Jim off by posting a huge list of questions.
"Why not just tell them, 'Nope, not gonna bother with you, don't you realize that is impolite?'" and then move on to the next polite person?
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So reality can be repopulated by Maggie and Young Harry.
Thomas need to adopt a sister (cousin, whatever) of Mouse, so the two doggies will repopulate too, with the young ones.
But seriously
So I have a question. Given the stated power and purpose of angels... Why aren't they guarding the outer gate?
If the outsiders get in, will the whole world be destroyed except one house with a very nice yard and white picket fence?
This is a good question but perhaps it is a division of tasks. Angels are taking care of other things.
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The angels have enormous power, but very strictly constrained by their purpose. They can't just go take over somebody else's job... like Winter's.
Now, you would think Heaven would want to supplant Winter given that Winterfae prey on mortals... but we don't really know how or why the division of roles among all these cosmic powers was established.
The Starborn cycle is presumably also involved in the defense of Reality, so there could be mortal Free Will issues (which the angels can't interfere with) involved with Heaven taking it over.
Also, there might be a scale factor. Angels are multi-versal, so they're probably spread very thin. And their primary concern is their conflict with the Fallen over mortal souls.
Even if an angel can wave a hand and obliterate whole armies of Outsiders, they might not be able to defend all the Outer Gates of all the parallel universes in Creation without letting the Fallen get away with a lot.
So they let the defenders in each particular universe do that job, while they focus on the Fallen.
(Protecting families of the Knights, IMO, is a subsidiary aspect of their real job, not a totally different job. And a maximum of three families per universe, currently only one in Harry's, probably aren't so much of a burden.)
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Basically sort of what Vultur was saying. Angels are multiverse-level entities, and Outsiders are implied to be on the same level, but it appears the Angels are rather busy preserving the functioning of the multiverse AND fighting an endless civil war. However, it seems that Outsiders can't express their full power in most situations (like Angels) for some cosmic reason and therefore are simultaneously weaker and equally as strong as Angels. Perhaps it's a Will thing, or a Chaos vs Order thing, or something else entirely. But it seems Angels are not needed for such small conflicts like the Outer Gates.
Make of that what you will.
I think Uriel simply likes humanity, that is why he takes those risks.
I absolutely agree. Almost as though he thinks it is the most important thing, rather like Harry in that it's his only option. What gets interesting is when you consider what the other Archangels are doing. Did Lucifer also once think that those risks were important but it didn't work out? Do Michael and Raphael also take such risks? If so, where are they? If not, why not? Perhaps the risks are too great...
And I know you didn't mean to imply it, but do you think that Michael and Raphael like humanity less than Uriel (if at all)?
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Basically sort of what Vultur was saying. Angels are multiverse-level entities, and Outsiders are implied to be on the same level, but it appears the Angels are rather buys preserving the functioning of the multiverse AND fighting an endless civil war. However, it seems that Outsiders can't express their full power in most situations (like Angels) for some cosmic reason and therefore are simultaneously weaker and equally as strong as Angels. Perhaps it's a Will thing, or a Chaos vs Order thing, or something else entirely. But it seems Angels are not needed for such small conflicts like the Outer Gates.
Make of that what you will.
I absolutely agree. Almost as though he thinks it is the most important thing, rather like Harry in that it's his only option. What gets interesting is when you consider what the other Archangels are doing. Did Lucifer also once think that those risks were important but it didn't work out? Do Michael and Raphael also take such risks? If so, where are they? If not, why not? Perhaps the risks are too great...
And I know you didn't mean to imply it, but do you think that Michael and Raphael like humanity less than Uriel (if at all)?
Literally, I don't know, as I know nothing about them in the DF. But a priori I would say, "yes", because they are simply too far away. For liking humanity you need to know it very well first.
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Literally, I don't know, as I know nothing about them in the DF. But a priori I would say, "yes", because they are simply too far away. For liking humanity you need to know it very well first.
Interesting. Not so far away that they don't interfere at all though. Archangel Michael gave Esperacchius to Sanya, and Rafael or one of his lieutenants put warding on the Carpenter safe room. Gabriel hasn't shown up much recently but he sure used to, at least in the Bible.
I'd say they have different ways of showing their appreciation for humanity. Perhaps even have different reasons. I guess we'll see at some point.
But I don't think liking humanity or otherwise is enough to risk whatever Uriel is risking. I suspect things get harder for him sometimes...like during the Cycle perhaps.
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No, I don't think that is "interfering" with humanity. I believe that is doing their job. I suspect TWG commissioned them to do those things you mentioned, while Uriel decided to take the risk.
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Well, I think Uriel's job kind of is to skirt the lines... at least that's what Mab and Bob seem to imply in SmF, that he's kind of Heaven's head secret agent/operative/etc.
Kind of like what Eb is for the White Council.
He just might be taking that somewhat further. Lending his Grace to Michael was IMO a huge, huge deal... technically allowed by the rules, but really incredibly risky.
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Well, I think Uriel's job kind of is to skirt the lines... at least that's what Mab and Bob seem to imply in SmF, that he's kind of Heaven's head secret agent/operative/etc.
Kind of like what Eb is for the White Council.
He just might be taking that somewhat further. Lending his Grace to Michael was IMO a huge, huge deal... technically allowed by the rules, but really incredibly risky.
yea... Thinking about the balance... I'm not so sure that's not gonna bite him in the ass later, when Lucifer or someone gets to loan out their grace in reply (or if as I suspect, Lucifer is stuck without his grace, he'll get to have access to it)
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I don't think so. That would be a huge risk for them. Uriel took it by love, the bad guys won't have that.
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Uriel has always interfered with mankind, under orders of course, after all he is the Almighty's wet-works archangel.. I mean if you go and kill off the male first born of all the Egyptians, I don't what else you could call it but interference.
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So how’s this for an analogy – Someone writes the coolest online game ever (GOD). Assigns system admin to run the game (Angels), but not to stop hackers (outsiders). Players can go from random players, to heads of guilds, etc. so there are many varying levels of power depending on how seriously they play, and maybe how much the system admin trust them (people up to fey, little g gods, etc), and GOD wants them to like the game so much they are willing to work to protect it from hackers. One system admin goes rogue (satan) because he disagrees that protecting the game from hackers is a player job and things it would be much better to be a system admin job. Other admin now spend a lot of their time keeping him locked out, so his main way of messing with the game is encouraging the players to be dicks, occasionally giving out cheat codes, etc. hoping that if they all will do as he says, he’ll effectively run the game anyways. So system admin might do their job because they love god, love the game, or love the players but they can absolutely only do what they were assigned. Uriel risks things because he loves the players. Michael might do his thing because he thinks God is the bomb, while Raphael might do his thing because he just loves the elegant system architecture and thinks the game is the best.
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My question is, who were/are Bob's parents? A being is born with some of the knowledge of its parents, and I would assume the parents have to at least sort of like each other for this level of intimacy to work.
We believe the Bob goes back to the middle ages. He also seemed to favor winter as his main source of connections, so I kind of assume one of his parents is winter related. I have a hard time believing that what knowledge the parents pass on to the child can be well controlled, so it seems unlikely someone with a vast amount of powerful secrets (like Mab) would risk creating something like Bob. If he was older I would wonder if he could be tied into Merlin and/or Odin, but he's too young (I think) to be tied in to Merlin or into Odin as a full fledge god. I wonder if he could be a cheap Odin-imitation of what Zeus did with Athena. I really want to learn who Athena's mom is in the Greek god book...
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If he was older I would wonder if he could be tied into Merlin and/or Odin, but he's too young (I think) to be tied in to Merlin or into Odin as a full fledge god.
His origin could be associated with Odin's transition from being a full god to a "mostly retired god". IMO that probably lined up with the Christianization of Scandinavia... which is not too far off from Battle of Hastings era so could be associated with the transition of the Gates to Winter (from the Aesir?)
This might even be part of the reason why Odin has the Kringle Mantle. Given that Kringle is "Winter but Wyldfae", he can keep "in touch" without being directly involved.
I wonder if he could be a cheap Odin-imitation of what Zeus did with Athena. I really want to learn who Athena's mom is in the Greek god book...
Well, in mythology, when she has a mother at all, it's Metis. (A Titan of wisdom or cleverness, described by Hesiod as Zeus' first wife. Zeus swallowed Metis while Metis was transformed into a fly, and Athena was born out of Zeus' head.)
Definitely a sort of parallel to Harry and Lash...
EDIT: fixed unfinished sentence
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Definitely a sort of parallel to Harry and Lash...
Bonea was born out of Harry's head, not Lash.
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Uriel has always interfered with mankind, under orders of course, after all he is the Almighty's wet-works archangel.. I mean if you go and kill off the male first born of all the Egyptians, I don't what else you could call it but interference.
I have a pet theory TWG came down as TWC and when he died he got a different position based in his deeds in life. Since TWC basically died to give us choice, his new job is enabling choice.. ever since he showed up as Jake the Janitor... Whose clearly based on God in Bruce Almighty,
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i think the trinity aspect of the White God is applicable, given other series of threes in the series, Christ was created from the White God to experience humanity, got Nemfected and the crucifixion was a ceremony to allow the removal of Nemesis and the restoration of Christ as part of the White God. It may also have had other implications against the Outsiders and the influence of Nemesis we aren’t aware of yet, the White God works on a lengthy timescale. Uriel is under this a separate entity to the White God, an Archangel. The whole purpose may be to figure out a cure for another Archangel who Uriel keeps in check.
I do wonder if Hells Bells is Harry invading Hell with Nicodemus to cure Lucifer, foreshadowed by their team up in SG to get the super weapons. Removing Lucifer from the board would be a major blow to the Outsiders permanently, and not just for this cycle, as whilst Uriel checks him, he checks Uriel. I would imagine it as a Dirty Dozen mission, heroes and villains whereas SG was Oceans 11
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The guy famous for being born under a star not a starborn!?
Lucifer doesn't work with the outsiders, and neither does Nic. Lucifer balancing things out is a very important part of the metaphysics of the DF, his removal would have dire consequences to the balance, not positive ones.
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i think the trinity aspect of the White God is applicable, given other series of threes in the series, Christ was created from the White God to experience humanity, got Nemfected and the crucifixion was a ceremony to allow the removal of Nemesis and the restoration of Christ as part of the White God. It may also have had other implications against the Outsiders and the influence of Nemesis we aren’t aware of yet, the White God works on a lengthy timescale. Uriel is under this a separate entity to the White God, an Archangel. The whole purpose may be to figure out a cure for another Archangel who Uriel keeps in check.
I do wonder if Hells Bells is Harry invading Hell with Nicodemus to cure Lucifer, foreshadowed by their team up in SG to get the super weapons. Removing Lucifer from the board would be a major blow to the Outsiders permanently, and not just for this cycle, as whilst Uriel checks him, he checks Uriel. I would imagine it as a Dirty Dozen mission, heroes and villains whereas SG was Oceans 11
Some interesting ideas but there is WOJ saying that Lucifer isn't nemfected and Nemesis has limits. The idea being Nemesis cannot corrupt Archangels. No idea on regular angels though.
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Bonea was born out of Harry's head, not Lash.
Right, I meant the parallel is that Harry had Lash's shadow in his brain as an internal advisor and later gave birth to Bonea.
Whereas Zeus swallowed Metis (who is then presented by Hesiod as becoming Zeus's advisor of sorts, or perhaps his wisdom aspect) and later gave birth to Athena.
Since TWC basically died to give us choice, his new job is enabling choice.. ever since he showed up as Jake the Janitor... Whose clearly based on God in Bruce Almighty,
That may be the out-of-story inspiration, but Jake is Uriel, not God.
The guy famous for being born under a star not a starborn!?
It sounds good, but the timeline doesn't work. Harry was born within a year or so either way of 1975. 666 x 3 = 1998, so that would be like 24 BC. There's a bit of uncertainty in Jesus' birthdate, but it's like 1 AD-6 BC at the broadest.
And yeah, no Nemfected Lucifer. Nemesis doesn't operate on that level.
I don't think Nemesis is relevant to the Heaven/Hell conflict at all, which operates across all universes. Nemesis is an Outsider agent in one particular universe.
(I think Nemesis is a lot less powerful than we assume, actually. It jumped from Lea to Maeve, not Mab, when co-opting Mab would have meant victory. And Lea was able to meaningfully resist, though she needed Mab to be cured.)
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@Vulture, apparently you don't get it, I'm directly implying, hell outright stating my belief Uriel is TWG, disagreeing won't change my opinion I assure you.
And we can throw the silly starborn timeline out the window. I just theorized, like right here, just to put forth an alternative headcanon than on relying on a cycle we still know practically nothing about, Maggie and Malcolm actually traveled forward in time at one point so although we know Harry's physical age we don't know the year he was really born. This is why Malcolm is a stage magician, he comes from an era it was still in Vogue.
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There is nothing to indicate that Malcolm time traveled is there? And exactly what does the story get out of Uriel being anything other than an Archangel? Assuming this Starborn thing means anything, the only time travel needed could be had simply by moving in and out of the Never Never. A fact which given what we know of her, is something she would have known how to do.
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There is nothing to indicate that Malcolm time traveled is there? And exactly what does the story get out of Uriel being anything other than an Archangel? Assuming this Starborn thing means anything, the only time travel needed could be had simply by moving in and out of the Never Never. A fact which given what we know of her, is something she would have known how to do.
depth, the story gets depth. Which isn't something Jim's known for or anything lol?
That's the kind of time travel I meant, she took Dresden into the passing lane, probably by accident, and came out much later.
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Mister has more chance of being the White God rather than Uriel, celestial ranking (according to cats)
Cats
White God
Archangels
Angels
Monkeys
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Mister has more chance of being the White God rather than Uriel, celestial ranking (according to cats)
Cats
White God
Archangels
Angels
Monkeys
now thats ridiculousness.
Besides, we already know the original creator deity/MS abdicated, where do you think he went then eh? Into a story that makes sense or just off into the distance cause you, for no particular reason, disagree with a valid theory? And I say he, because the older mythos always have a male figurehead 'father sky', Dagda, ect. So no, it's still a possibility, you can disagree, you can't tell me the odds.
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You are of course aware that the earliest representation of a deity (paeleolithic) is female? (well it’s either religion or porn, we can guess where Bob would put his money).
Robert Graves ‘The White Goddess’ is an excellent treatise on the subject of matriarchal deities and some decent poetry as well.
If you state that Uriel is the White God, then you rank Lucifer as the equal of the White God, instead of ‘merely’ being another Archangel whose counterweight Uriel is. I suspect the White God/Goddess involvement is limited to celestial spotlight which illuminates a Starborn every 666 years.
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No, am I speaking a foreign language recently!? He abdicated his role, and switched jobs.... he /was/ TWG, under that theory.
Take the Woj that the fall happened immediately after creation, that makes TWG Creator. Not MS, who holds the self same position.
And actually, yea. Lucifers Job is specifically to counter balance TWG, so we know of any other entity that thematically fits? And yet counterbalances are a key thing in the DF. Lucifers the darkest shadow, TWG would the brightest being. They actually match up succinctly. And of course you could take uriel's name differently, God is my Light, ei, God shines through me.
... You think that TWGs involvement is limited to starborn celestial events but don't think TWC, whom he sent(ergo an involvement) is a starborn?🤔
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What? We know that the creator abdicated? Is that canon? (This is a serious question, it is very important for me).
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What? We know that the creator abdicated? Is that canon? (This is a serious question, it is very important for me).
the old 'mother summer" abdicated yes. That was the start of the whole theory was wondering why, and where they went.
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Oh, the old mother Summer I knew, but we don't know that TWG is not the creator, right? Or the same God from millennia ago? Basically, we have no reason to believe that the current WG is not the original one, right?
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Oh, the old mother Summer I knew, but we don't know that TWG is not the creator, right? Or the same God from millennia ago? Basically, we have no reason to believe that the current WG is not the original one, right?
we don't know he's not the original WG no. But if the fall happened just as reality was made,(recent Woj) then he was the Creator at that point no?
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Yes, so it was the original. I must have misunderstood something you said.
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I still think Starborn are a Reality vs Outsiders thing and have no connection to the Heaven vs Hell conflict.
Lucifers Job is specifically to counter balance TWG
I really doubt Jim would do it this way. Lucifer is a fallen Archangel, which makes him a counterbalance to the good Archangels, not to the Creator.
Robert Graves ‘The White Goddess’
I really wouldn't take any of Robert Graves' stuff as authoritative on much of anything... I'm pretty sure much of this is now generally thought to be based on very little.
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Their primary aspects even mirror each other, one believes in freedom and in SmF the aura of power nic whips up from Lucifer is a complete and utter lack of freedom. And Lucifer isn't the greatest being of darkness, just the darkest.. MW is actually the tallest shadow, in a metaphysics that gives height to equal importance.
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It sounds good, but the timeline doesn't work. Harry was born within a year or so either way of 1975. 666 x 3 = 1998, so that would be like 24 BC. There's a bit of uncertainty in Jesus' birthdate, but it's like 1 AD-6 BC at the broadest.
While a nice thought, I feel the 666 number just dropped out of the sky too much to do that - 666 is strongly associated with Christian stories, where TWC would presumably be critical.
Moreover, Eb had to think before answering 'every 666 years'. This sounds to me like a cop-out or fudge - I don't believe any western person could need time to remember something big hapening on a 666 cycle, so he was thinking how to hide the real fact behind an also-true-but-dodgy fact.
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While a nice thought, I feel the 666 number just dropped out of the sky too much to do that - 666 is strongly associated with Christian stories, where TWC would presumably be critical.
Moreover, Eb had to think before answering 'every 666 years'. This sounds to me like a cop-out or fudge - I don't believe any western person could need time to remember something big hapening on a 666 cycle, so he was thinking how to hide the real fact behind an also-true-but-dodgy fact.
I didn't want to be the first one to say it, but yea, Eb might be full of it in that whole Convo.
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Their primary aspects even mirror each other, one believes in freedom and in SmF the aura of power nic whips up from Lucifer is a complete and utter lack of freedom. And Lucifer isn't the greatest being of darkness, just the darkest.. MW is actually the tallest shadow, in a metaphysics that gives height to equal importance.
I don't know what is JB idea, or what happens in his universe. But in our world, the Christian tradition says that Lucifer is not the opposite of God. God has not opposite. Literally. Lucifer and his followers fought other angels, but God is above all that.
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And Lucifer isn't the greatest being of darkness, just the darkest.. MW is actually the tallest shadow, in a metaphysics that gives height to equal importance.
Eh, I'm not sure that's exactly what that means ... I think the whole "longest shadow, darkest dream" bit is more about how Mother Winter is the End Of All Things (though she may more accurately be one half of it).
'Darkness' might be ambiguous here. MW is basically entropy, I think. I'm not sure she's exactly 'evil' in the sense the Fallen are, beings that made a conscious Choice to be evil.
[And to me the way the Mothers talk about futures unfolding and Outsider victory being a final end in CD makes me think that the Mothers are limited to one universe. The destruction of any particular universe wouldn't mean "everything ends" for Uriel or Lucifer.
That may not be exactly the same thing as being of greater 'power', though. Demonreach is probably stronger than Mab on his island, but has much less ability to act. The Mothers could easily be as strong as archangels within their own universe.]
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I don't know what is JB idea, or what happens in his universe. But in our world, the Christian tradition says that Lucifer is not the opposite of God. God has not opposite. Literally. Lucifer and his followers fought other angels, but God is above all that.
check your mythology again, as the Adversary, before the fall, it was literally his job to oppose the status quo. Yes I know that doesn't make him opposite, though if you go back farther to the Jewish cabbala it does. God manifest is the aeon of our level of reality, literally just an Archangel,(which of course is only a piece of God, like his mouth) where as The Adversary is his dark reflection able to act in cosmic imbalance. And who takes over this Job when Lucifer falls? His wife Lilith.. Lilith as Nemesis/the Adversary is sooo thematically correct. Eh, I'm not sure that's exactly what that means ... I think the whole "longest shadow, darkest dream" bit is more about how Mother Winter is the End Of All Things (though she may more accurately be one half of it).
'Darkness' might be ambiguous here. MW is basically entropy, I think. I'm not sure she's exactly 'evil' in the sense the Fallen are, beings that made a conscious Choice to be evil.
[And to me the way the Mothers talk about futures unfolding and Outsider victory being a final end in CD makes me think that the Mothers are limited to one universe. The destruction of any particular universe wouldn't mean "everything ends" for Uriel or Lucifer.
That may not be exactly the same thing as being of greater 'power', though. Demonreach is probably stronger than Mab on his island, but has much less ability to act. The Mothers could easily be as strong as archangels within their own universe.]
sure she is, but it's also directly correlated to size=power. Those names were not made up for no reason. Even HHWBHs boss is seeking the shadows, to corrupt or to collect. And... I tend to think that's exactly what it is, they are Archangel level power(well, when they combine anyway) holding down reality. The Creator was never bigger than the others in that way, he just has home turf advantage. Maybe I'm listening to a different conversation than you, but the way they talk implies they are NOT so limited to me. To see multiple futures unfolding all at the same time, you have to be able to exist in them simultaneously. something for instance that the gatekeeper appears unable to do in TC.
*And the hunters if shadows/shadows of the hunters bit too..
**Ooooh, and thank you for reminding me she's called darkest dream, I had forgotten.. but it fits into a theory I have that all the sleepers dream, and in dreaming create their own domain of the dream, and that would be the outer gates made manifest I think...
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check your mythology again, as the Adversary, before the fall, it was literally his job to oppose the status quo. Yes I know that doesn't make him opposite, though if you go back farther to the Jewish cabbala it does. God manifest is the aeon of our level of reality
I think you are mixing a bunch of different and probably incompatible interpretations. The Dresdenverse does tend to have an 'everything is real somewhere' aspect, but I don't think all incompatible interpretations of the same beings (such as God and Lucifer/Satan) can simultaneously be true.
Aeons as manifestations of God is a Gnostic thing, and I don't think the Gnostic view of reality is compatible with what we've seen of Dresdenverse cosmology.
Lilith is similarly a 'non-mainstream' concept, can't necessarily be assumed to exist in the DV and certainly not as wife of Lucifer/Satan. (If anything, I'd expect Lilith in the DV to be a misinterpretation of or alternate name for Lasciel, given her "playing both sides" aspect.)
Those names were not made up for no reason.
Oh sure... but I think 'shadow' and 'darkness' are being used metaphorically in a couple of ways that don't exactly line up. In the Winter-Summer opposition, Summer is Light and Winter is Darkness (Mab is Queen of Air and Darkness). In the Heaven-Hell opposition, Heaven is Light and Hell is Darkness.
That doesn't mean Winter=Hell or Summer=Heaven.
To see multiple futures unfolding all at the same time, you have to be able to exist in them simultaneously.
No, even Abby (a very weak talent) can do this in WN. That is just what it means to be able to see the future in the DV, it's always multiple possibilities.
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I think you are mixing a bunch of different and probably incompatible interpretations. The Dresdenverse does tend to have an 'everything is real somewhere' aspect, but I don't think all incompatible interpretations of the same beings (such as God and Lucifer/Satan) can simultaneously be true.
Aeons as manifestations of God is a Gnostic thing, and I don't think the Gnostic view of reality is compatible with what we've seen of Dresdenverse cosmology.
Lilith is similarly a 'non-mainstream' concept, can't necessarily be assumed to exist in the DV and certainly not as wife of Lucifer/Satan. (If anything, I'd expect Lilith in the DV to be a misinterpretation of or alternate name for Lasciel, given her "playing both sides" aspect.)
Oh sure... but I think 'shadow' and 'darkness' are being used metaphorically in a couple of ways that don't exactly line up. In the Winter-Summer opposition, Summer is Light and Winter is Darkness (Mab is Queen of Air and Darkness). In the Heaven-Hell opposition, Heaven is Light and Hell is Darkness.
That doesn't mean Winter=Hell or Summer=Heaven.
No, even Abby (a very weak talent) can do this in WN. That is just what it means to be able to see the future in the DV, it's always multiple possibilities.
Abby is not doing that, that is specifically why she's sometimes wrong, she's seeing direct variations of the same future. I don't find that to be exactly the same,
Aeons changing is basically what the second coming is about, which has been directly referenced in the DF btw.
I don't see your point about the darkness thing, it not meaning that can just as easily mean that in other situations... And a equals b doesn't mean it equals c type of thing.
Nor does her unlikely hood take precedence over her likely hood to be in it. It was very unlikely of Jim to choose Etruscan and that version of the Greek Nemesis, but I believe he did.
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Abby is not doing that, that is specifically why she's sometimes wrong, she's seeing direct variations of the same future. I don't find that to be exactly the same,
I don't think there's a difference, except for scale (Abby doesn't look far enough ahead to see drastic divergences).
But its sometimes being wrong is exactly because she can see different possible futures and doesn't necessarily know which turns out to be the real one.
From the context of the conversation, I think the Mothers are still looking at multiple possible futures unfolding from a *single* Now.
And I don't think Mother Summer would speak in terms of "empty night", "everything ends", if she was cross-universe and thus the destruction of Harry's universe would only impact an infinitesimal fraction of her being.
Aeons changing is basically what the second coming is about, which has been directly referenced in the DF btw.
Aeon in the original meaning of "an age", relevant to the Second Coming/End of Days, transition from the current age to Eternity, is something very different from Aeon as a manifestation of God which is itself divine (a Gnostic concept), which is what I thought you were referring to with Uriel being a manifestation of TWG/the Creator.
I don't see your point about the darkness thing
Just that Mother Winter being called "longest shadow, darkest dream" etc. doesn't mean she is more powerful than Lucifer.
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@vulture, it's not really that different, the original aeons were always assigned a God or a sign for it to have represented, we're living in the age of Horus right now for instance.
In the second coming it's referring to the Antichrist as our coming Aeon, the dark beast slouching its way to bethlehem. Add in the mirror and the ever present gyre and that implies Christ is our Aeon.
Idk, but impact is still impact, Uriel is multidimensional and still gives a crap about a single line of fate because he knows others spread forward from it.
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@vulture, it's not really that different, the original aeons were always assigned a God or a sign for it to have represented, we're living in the age of Horus right now for instance.
Where do you get that from? I've heard of astrological ages being defined by zodiac constellations (Pisces, Aquarius) but Horus is not a constellation.
And there is a major difference. 'Aeon' originally means 'age', the religious connotations in mainstream Christianity derive from the idea of the Ages of the World (Christ started the current Age, and the Second Coming/End of Days will bring in the final and eternal Age).
The Gnostic use of Aeon is for beings which are emanations or portions of capital-G God yet themselves divine, and belong to the true divine reality, as opposed to Archons who are kind of like pseudo-angelic overseers of the flawed material reality (created by the Demiurge who is sort of a "fake God" and an Aeon gone wrong, either evil or deluded depending on the version).
The Gnostic cosmology isn't compatible with the DV one, since there is really no room for Fallen in the Christian sense in the Gnostic worldview, and they clearly exist in the DV.
Uriel is multidimensional and still gives a crap about a single line of fate because he knows others spread forward from it.
Yeah, it's not that the multi-universe beings wouldn't care, it's that if Mother Summer was multi-universe she wouldn't use phrases like "everything ends" because one universe wouldn't be "everything" to her.