More stuff about how various mythical creatures have grown and adapted.
One last point, concerning fantasy in general: I would like to see more trilogies. Nobody writes trilogies anymore. They just write and write and write and a decade later, the series still isn't finished, and then the author dies before ever finishing it. Maybe it's just me, but I LOVE trilogies. Give me one story, with a strong story arch leading from the beginning to an exiting finale, and then the characters get their well-earned reward and live happily ever after (or not) -- and make room for new characters and fresh ideas. Why are writers so afraid of the finale? Why would they rehash their own tired old ideas volume after volume rather than explore new ones?
One last point, concerning fantasy in general: I would like to see more trilogies. Nobody writes trilogies anymore. They just write and write and write and a decade later, the series still isn't finished, and then the author dies before ever finishing it. Maybe it's just me, but I LOVE trilogies. Give me one story, with a strong story arch leading from the beginning to an exiting finale, and then the characters get their well-earned reward and live happily ever after (or not) -- and make room for new characters and fresh ideas.
What I would like to see more of in urban fantasy in particular: multiculturality; in particular, more recognition in books set in NorAm cities of Native American/First Peoples powers alongside the imported European ones, rather than books focusing on one or the other. When I finish a couple of the things I'm currently working on I intend to have a shot at something like this set in Montreal.
This is the most generic answer, but well, here it is: something different. I feel like a traitor, but I'm kind of burned out on my own genre. Jim's doing good stuff, so are Kat Richardson, Rachel Caine, and a few others. But, I don't know. I think I'd like to see darker stuff--and more than just private investigators. We already have some who are being written very well (ahem), and I'd like to see a new model for this genre.
You may want to check out the Urban Shaman series by C.E. Murphy. She has quite a bit of Celtic influence in the stories, as well as the Native American mythology that plays a VERY strong part in it.
Also, maybe a character that is actually in a different country than the U.S. or U.K.
What would you prefer to P.I.? Someone who just stumbles onto something because of natural curiosity?
Someone could modernize the cthulu mythos.
Less neurotic sex, more updating for today.
Like Charlie Stross has in The Atrocity Archive and The Jennifer Morgue ?
I would think a story told from the perspective of an evil monster. Not one that is good in anyway and not apologetic for being bad. And not a bloody vampire. The mummy book by Anne Rice started to look that way, then they stopped.
A troll in Today's New York city that really does eat children who pass over a bridge. That would be kind of interesting.
Failing that, a story that focused on a more nuanced view of good and evil...
A troll in Today's New York city that really does eat children who pass over a bridge. That would be kind of interesting.
*Curiosity peaks* Are these any good? The only Cthulhu Mythos stuff I've read is Brian Lumley's. (Yes, I'd recommend it.)
You may be interested in Nightlife by Rob Thurman. It fits all those qualities...kind of.
So we have series and trilogies and stand alones. What do you call a duo of books?
The thing is, I have no interest in writing any more after these two. Others are possible, but not by me. i'll be ready to move on. I wrote them in scifi so i could engage readers into action on Darfur.
More realistic humans. I'm tired of the perfectly in fit human woman or man being the hero. Make them short. Make them fat. Make them have a limb missing. Heck, just make them acne prone for all I care. Just make the humans seem more - human! Why should all heros and heroines be good looking? Why can't they look like some cross between The Phantom Of The Opera and The Elephant Man? Or at least be rather plain.
Fat women can kick vampire butt too, you know.
More realistic humans. I'm tired of the perfectly in fit human woman or man being the hero. Make them short. Make them fat. Make them have a limb missing. Heck, just make them acne prone for all I care. Just make the humans seem more - human! Why should all heros and heroines be good looking? Why can't they look like some cross between The Phantom Of The Opera and The Elephant Man? Or at least be rather plain.
Fat women can kick vampire butt too, you know.
I think that's what I loved about Shaun of the Dead. If some supernatural apocalypse did happen, the average population wouldn't form well-oiled platoons to take them out. The survival of the world really would depend on a couple of slacker, beer drinking buddies that thought it was all a joke initially.Yep. Terry Pratchett has written most of them.
Are there any books along those lines?
Yep. Terry Pratchett has written most of them.
Yep. Terry Pratchett has written most of them.
I figure the luck of the Irish think is kinda necessary since a normal joe schmoe confronted with homicidal supernatural folks needs some sort of edge, other than martial arts, etc.
Some of us don't like Pratchett that much though.
I'd like to see some that take place in our world, not a made up one like the Discworld books, where the hero and herione are oridinary looking peolpe. They're not some perfect super model/wrestler type. Just a couple of adverage Joes and Janes that kick supernatural butt.
I figure the luck of the Irish think is kinda necessary since a normal joe schmoe confronted with homicidal supernatural folks needs some sort of edge, other than martial arts, etc.
We need a Nero Wolfe and Archie Goodwin in one.
The Luck of the Irish thing could play great.
Like he needs to call someone and luckily finds the one working telephone booth in the slums.
I like them a lot. The Atrocity Archives, which is the novel The Atrocity Archive plus the novella "Concrete Jungle", is readily available in paperback, and Jennifer Morgue is currently in hardback. They are about the division of the British intelligence services devoted to containing Lovecraftian threats, who these days mostly tend to pick up and recruit hacker-types who are innocently fiddling around with obscure bits of mathematics. The office politics is really something; it's like Dilbert with necromancy. Specifically, Atrocity Archive is pastiching Len Deighton, and Jennifer Morgue parodying Ian Fleming, though the central character is more of a Neal Stephenson type. There is at least another one coming.
Disclaimer: I have beta-read for Charlie, though only one not-yet-published novella in this series.
One of the things I enjoy so much about the Discworld books is that the "heroes" are, well, MUCH less than perfect. The underbelly comes out on top (if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor ;D ).
Psst - underdog, Shecky.
Sam Vimes. Even though he's a Duke. He is my hero.
An idea for urban fantasy stories I'd like to see; wizards divided by country same as everyone else, perhaps even with nationalism according to their magic. Governmet-employed wizards is something I'd also like to see experimented with.
I think that's what I loved about Shaun of the Dead. If some supernatural apocalypse did happen, the average population wouldn't form well-oiled platoons to take them out. The survival of the world really would depend on a couple of slacker, beer drinking buddies that thought it was all a joke initially.
Are there any books along those lines?
Particularly the luck of the real Irish, which is that everyone fights with everyone else and it rains all the bloody time.
There is a magical payphone just outside Beaudry Metro station in Montreal which has the property that if you try calling someone from it three times they come out of the door beside you. I have only tested this on one person, but I'm going to use it in a novel anyway.
More realistic humans. I'm tired of the perfectly in fit human woman or man being the hero. Make them short. Make them fat. Make them have a limb missing. Heck, just make them acne prone for all I care. Just make the humans seem more - human! Why should all heros and heroines be good looking? Why can't they look like some cross between The Phantom Of The Opera and The Elephant Man? Or at least be rather plain.
Fat women can kick vampire butt too, you know.
I could see a fat woman, though I prefer the term "big woman", give vampires whatfor. I think it would be best for a YA novel. A young woman, who doesn't fit into the popular crowd, and who ends up saying everybody because of her hobbies, and because of her genetic backround. She'd be the descendent of the Jotunar (Ice Giants).
Frankly there's too many YA books where some girl or boy is "a bit of an outsider" cause they're part something or other - and they're the heros of the story. I want an adult novel where she is just an ordinary human being who happens to get sucked into kicking undead or fairy butt. And preferably she'd be fat and short like me cause I'm sick and tired of the Xena-wannabes. Maybe she can find something that would help her. Or maybe she could just have a talent that actually helps in kicking supernatural butt. Since I've always wanted to be the inspiration behind a fictional character let's just use the fact I can sing and sing well as an example - She manages to calm down a rampaging werewolf by crooning the Beatles' Yesterday or Glenn Miller's Moonlight Cockstail to it. (Music hath charms to sooth the savage beast and all that.)
Fixed it. ;D
As for the YA novels - working in a library I KNOW there's a lot of "the oddball is the hero" books. But I don't see why there can't be one like that for ADULTS. We feel like freaks sometimes too you know.
Doesn't just about every fiction book out there fit that bill, in one way or another? I'm trying to call to mind a single story that I've read lately that the hero/heroine fit into society...and I guess I've been reading a lot of oddball/hero books.
I've noticed though that they're often the oddballs because it turns out they're part-something or other. Rarely does it seem that the teen is a normal pure bred human being. Which is what I'd like to see. A normal human, who doesn't fit in too well because they don't fit society's standards of behavior or beauty or what have you. Who turns around and saves people without any special powers, special charms, etc. Just whatever normal talents they happen to have and a bit of brain power.
I thought of another one that has just a plain-Jane heroine (although she's younger- in her teens, I think): Knee-Deep in Thunder.
Yeah, I really want some adult stuff. It's not fair we keep getting left out. We can feel like freaks and oddballs too just as much as any angst-riddled teenager. Sometimes more so because teens you expect and accept it. Adults we hear "Oh get over it."
Jami, ever read anything by Charles de Lint?
No, but I've seen people checking out his books. I don't have time to read everything.
I've noticed though that they're often the oddballs because it turns out they're part-something or other. Rarely does it seem that the teen is a normal pure bred human being. Which is what I'd like to see. A normal human, who doesn't fit in too well because they don't fit society's standards of behavior or beauty or what have you. Who turns around and saves people without any special powers, special charms, etc. Just whatever normal talents they happen to have and a bit of brain power.
Well, if you get a chance, and a bit of time, check out some of his Newford novels. Most of his characters are not "Beautiful People". They are outsiders, and eccentrics.
Yeah, I really want some adult stuff. It's not fair we keep getting left out. We can feel like freaks and oddballs too just as much as any angst-riddled teenager. Sometimes more so because teens you expect and accept it. Adults we hear "Oh get over it."
Fair enough, but there has to be some reason why the story is happening to this protagonist in particular rather than some other random person; they have to be "special" at least at that level, and if you rule out oddities of origin or special powers in order to make them more normal, what then would work for you to make them stand out to the extent of attracting an actual Story rather than just having a life ?
Well, the Die Hard movies proved you can just have the "wrong place, right time" senerio work.
A person doesn't need to have special powers to just walk into the wrong alley and get the wrong kind of attention. People in the real world all the time suddenly find themselves witnessing murders, saving people from murderers/thieves/rapists, jumping on top of people who are having seizures and have fallen on subway tracks, etc. Why can't an ordinary person walk in on a vampire or werewolf attack and actually manage to save the victim? Therefore attracting unwanted supernatural attention the same way someone who's witnessed a mafia crime attracts their unwanted attention.
Could you imagine what a supernatural witness protection would be like?
An ordinary person doesn't save the victim. Ordinary people most often ARE victims; so it stands to reason that if they save someone, they have a quality that is extraordinary to begin with.
How about extrodinary compassion for other people? The willingness to risk their own life for a stranger simply because "It's the right thing to do"? There's ordinary people who do this in the real world. There's absolutely no reason it can't work in a fantasy novel. Sure, maybe they luck out and pick up an old iron pipe to hit the fairy in the head with, or a broken piece of wood that hits the vampire right in the heart. Or perhaps they have a talent like I suggested before - they're able to sing a werewolf to sleep simply because they're such a talented singer. All without having to be anything more then an ordinary human.
Well I say that if an author wants to make it work an ordinary person CAN defeat the bad guys and it's boring and over-done to have them turn out to be half fairy or half vampire or whatever. I'm sorry you disagree but it CAN BE DONE.
Well I say that if an author wants to make it work an ordinary person CAN defeat the bad guys and it's boring and over-done to have them turn out to be half fairy or half vampire or whatever. I'm sorry you disagree but it CAN BE DONE.
Well I say that if an author wants to make it work an ordinary person CAN defeat the bad guys and it's boring and over-done to have them turn out to be half fairy or half vampire or whatever. I'm sorry you disagree but it CAN BE DONE.
You seem to be taking this a bit personally, and I'm wondering if that's because you want to find a book that features someone you can identify with to a large degree.I agree with BB, here.
I'm not talking about you personally. If you want something like that, write some fanfic or ask someone to write it for you.
What I'm talking about is that a hero, by definition, isn't an ordinary person. It may be the actual point of saving someone through whatever measure they use, that may define them as extraordinary, but there are many ways to reach beyond the 'ordinary' definition..
How about extrodinary compassion for other people? The willingness to risk their own life for a stranger simply because "It's the right thing to do"?That's motivation, but not means. What makes the protaganist any better able to fight off the monster than the intended victim?
Every single time? That sort of luck would start to border on the absurd. Someone who is that lucky, all the time, would not be ordinary.
There's ordinary people who do this in the real world. There's absolutely no reason it can't work in a fantasy novel. Sure, maybe they luck out and pick up an old iron pipe to hit the fairy in the head with, or a broken piece of wood that hits the vampire right in the heart.
Or perhaps they have a talent like I suggested before - they're able to sing a werewolf to sleep simply because they're such a talented singer. All without having to be anything more then an ordinary human.ok, beiong able to sing someone to sleep, let alone a werewolf, would sort of qualify as a supernatural power.
And Jami isn't advocating ordinary circumstances, just a person who is, by all appearances, ordinary at the start of the story.Ok, that's a bit out of line. Jami is arguing about 'ordinary people' but with teh strong inference that ordinary is defined as real world ordinary. Your scenario posits an author creating an 'ordinary' where the ability to, for example, sing a werewolf to sleep isn't anything special.
I also think everyone knows exactly what Jami means by "ordinary person", and there's some arguing for arguing's sake going on here.
"But... but singing to werewolves isn't ordinary!" Well dur. But that's part of her basic scenario (or at least one example of a possibility). So the *person* is still ordinary, even if the situation isn't.Quite aside from being unnecessarily rude, this doesn't make sense.
I'm finding a certain amount of amusement in the fact that this part of the discussion is taking place on the message board for a writer who's gotten a 6-book deal from an idea that started as a bet he could take two ridiculous, "unworkable" ideas and make a good story from them.Who's writing? who's tried this?
I'm with Jami. If you can write, you can make it work. If you can't make it work, maybe you need to stop blaming the idea and start blaming your writing.
This has been answered above already. It's not just only if it's WRITTEN that way. Unless this is a common ability in the book, it's NOT ordinary.
And allow me to roll my eyes at the idea that being able to sing to a werewolf well enough to soothe them is an extraordinary ability. Only if you WRITE it that way. Maybe anyone who can sing well could possibly sing a werewolf calm, but it's just never occurred to anyone. It happens, for whatever reason, to occur to the heroine.
Ok, that's a bit out of line. Jami is arguing about 'ordinary people' but with teh strong inference that ordinary is defined as real world ordinary. Your scenario posits an author creating an 'ordinary' where the ability to, for example, sing a werewolf to sleep isn't anything special.
Moreover, what I'm reading from Jami's posts isn't 'ordinary at the start of the story', it's stock standard, 100% vanilla human, no powers, abillities or heritage other than what an unenhanced, real world human would have.
People aren't just disagreeing with Jami for the hell of it. I'm certainly not. I disagree because I hold a different opinion.
Quite aside from being unnecessarily rude, this doesn't make sense.
You agree being able to sing to werewolves isn't ordinary, then later on, claim that the person who possesses this extraordinary ability, is, in face, still ordinary, just in an extraordinary situation.
Again, unless you re-write 'ordinary' to be 'singing can put people to sleep, especially in a high stress situation', this just doesn't fit that.
Moreover, as I said, that LEVEL of singing talent would make you an extraordianry human, rather than an stock standard one.
Who's writing? who's tried this?
Jim could do what he did in Alera partly because he's working with concepts, which he could define.
Jami is doing the defining, and then complaining that no one has written the story that fits her definition yet.
This has been answered above already. It's not just only if it's WRITTEN that way. Unless this is a common ability in the book, it's NOT ordinary.
Yes, you can write it like that, but then it fail's Jami's definition of 'ordinary person'.
I'm with Borealis Belle. If you want to see it, write it your damn self.
ok, beiong able to sing someone to sleep, let alone a werewolf, would sort of qualify as a supernatural power.
And Jami isn't advocating ordinary circumstances, just a person who is, by all appearances, ordinary at the start of the story. "But... but singing to werewolves isn't ordinary!" Well dur. But that's part of her basic scenario (or at least one example of a possibility). So the *person* is still ordinary, even if the situation isn't.
I think we're having some blurring on what exactly different people mean by "ordinary".
It also occurs to me that, even if you did manage to start out with someone whom everyone was satisfied was "ordinary", they're not going to stay that way very long, because to my mind the "ordinary" person's first reaction to weird violent stuff happening is to try to hand it off to the competent authorities, or otherwise get out of the way, and succeeding at doing that doesn;t actually make for a story.
EXACTLY.100% agree.
This is the point I was trying to make...and I guess I didn't do a very good job.
Yes, people can be sung to sleep. I wasn't disputing that. I was suggesting that IF someone was able to 'sing a werewolf to sleep' while that werewolf was in an alley attacking somoene, it sure as heck wouldn't be someone ordinary that could do such a thing.
I wasn't saying any of this was impossible to write---I was trying to say that a) it would have to be written plausibly, to make such an unlikely event actually occur and b) were someone to be able to sing a creature to sleep during the commission of such an attack, they would not be what would be termed 'ordinary'. Unless werewolves or vampires or whatever monsters in that author's realm were different than the legends in THIS world. I kind of figured that went without saying, with this being a forum on an author's website.
I'm not argueing for arguement's sake---but I'm sure as hell not going to simply agree in order to validate a fantasy, either. The other point I was trying to make was that if it's a book idea, the author has to be able to establish 'the rules' early on. IF it's a case where the heroine sings a wereolf to sleep during the commission of an attack, the foundation has to be laid early on that it is possible. If the event was taking place in downtown Los Angeles (for instance) in this day and age, I don't think that I, as the reader, would be able to swallow such an occurrence. It flies in the face of what I know. If the author were able to explain early on in the book, or at the time of the singing, something about the timbre or the pitch or something to do with the heroine's voice, that would make it easier to accept.
But it sure wouldn't make her ordinary.
THAT is what I meant by my previous posts.
Moving on...
What Id like to see in modern fantasy more is Supernatural explanations/motivations for familiar things, especially locations. I mean, everyone expects there to be mysticism with old structures such as Stonehenge or various temples and pyramids. But, if Magic never died out, why would the practice of mystically significant architecture be a lost thing. Age doesn't have to be the only thing to give a place power or purpose. A similar vein was used in the recent Transformers film where the Hoover Dam was built to conceal alien artifacts and vast energy signatures.
Take the Dresdenverse for example:
Given what we know about magic, and that magic has a presence in an almost corporate guise with Monoc Securities, there has to be more to the design of the Pentagon than a mere misunderstanding of the phrase "Think outside the box." Maybe its part of some kind of giant sigil of malicious intent, or maybe its shape is part of some intense mystical defenses for our governments military and intelligence.
And this can work from almost anything:
Maybe Fort Knox is Fort-freaking-Knox because They (Capital T) needed to convince the masses that its was impenetrable to tap the energies of that mass belief into actually making it so, and gold was just a sellable euphemism for some other treasure.
Maybe the Arc de Triomphe, with its Twelve radial Streets, is actually a giant portal of Napoleonic Empirialism.
Same idea with the St. Louis "Gateway Arch" (tell me thats not just begging to be an invasion point for fey outsiders or black council).
The Vatican, which is structurally a circle inside a square inside a five pointed star, has some infinite possibilities.
(For a larger list of geometrically suspect structures, see: http://www.city.hakodate.hokkaido.jp/kikaku/kokusai/$summit/01-cities.htm)
Sort of the Buffy-syndrome, you always have to have something bigger and more evil in the next story arch. On the other hand, it's what we want, right? I mean if you review Jim Butcher's writing journal he says that every "scene" has to build and push forward the confrontation, expose a new weakness, a new possibility for failure--but at the end of the day the hero wins by over coming that weakness.
Shared universe -I don't know, maybe. RPG retaled books have often done this. Shadowrun was pretty cool, while it lived and it certainly was easier to pick up a book at random and know that the rules of the world stay the same. Again, though, so much depends on the treatment the individual writer gives it. What I find with shared worlds -whether Shadowrun, Battletech or Dragonlance - there's inevitable only 1-2 writers I read and the rest I don't.
Something that I would also like to see is more of a clash between mythologies.
Before RPG (or maybe at the same time but I thought it was before...) there was the Sanctuary series - a rough fantasy based town that had short stories that spun off into novels for the popular characters
Coop, sounds a bit like Shadow Run type book..
Basically its a story of a normal mundane world, like ours today, with all the wars, politics, and such, and flipping it, over night, into a fantasy world
Cooper, for inspiration you might want to read "Empire of the East" -(3 books in one) by Saberhagen. I don't want to ruin it for you but if you want a quick synopsis:(click to show/hide)
They both have a unique view on how magic works and give us charcters that are less predicatable.
Hold the frickin' phone.... I loved Saberhagen's other books in that continuity, but i didn't know there were more of them. I read his 11 Sword books.(click to show/hide)
For those of you who keep saying you want to see more mundane people rise to hero-hood, I recommend most of Neil Gaiman's novels (American Gods, Neverwhere and others). He does just that, where a seemingly ordinary person gets swept up in supernatural goings-on, and usually is just looking for a way out the whole time. They are fun because the characters usually end up hitting this state of pseudo-insanity where they are no longer surprised by anything they see and begin to simply take everything in stride.
Hey, Jami, check out C.E. Murphy's Heart of Stone for a regular human heroine.
Another thing I would like more in Urban fantasy: language and description that are above high-school level. Right now, I am despairing of the genre again. I've tried three different authors and haven't gotten past page 20 or so because on 20 pages I haven't found a single thought or idea or piece of description that had me thinking: wow, nicely put. I mean, it is all so trite and mediocre, as if the author had jotted down the first image or thought that came to him. Flat, unimaginative language puts me off before I can even get to whatever exciting development the plot might take on page 50 or so.
One thing I really want to see less of: Attempting to make magic a form of "science." (Sorry, Mr. Butcher. That's the one thing I dislike about the Dresden-verse.) Magic(k) isn't science. Magic is religion.
When magic is assumed as science, it also assumes that, like science, magic is dispassionate towards mythology, culture, and tradition. In short, the urban fantasy axiom is "Magic is the same everywhere. Culture and tradition are just 'flavorings.' " In the real world, that just isn't true. Not all magic systems fit into the Egyptian/Golden Dawn/Wicca template. (Disagree ? Try plugging in the ancient Chinese, Babylonian, or tribal New Guinean magic systems into that template.)
It seems to me that all modern urban fantasy takes a magic-is-science approach because it is dispassionate and, as a result, won't offend anyone. In short, magic has become politically correct.
If your character is a Catholic, give him a Catholic viewpoint and make his magic match it according to Catholic tradition; If your character is Wiccan, give him (or her) a Wiccan viewpoint and make his magic match it.
Sure, it takes a LOT of extra research. But it makes magic less homogenous; As a result, you gain real-world verisimilitude and lose that "I cast a ninth-level fireball. Roll your saving throw" feel.
According to some sources, magic grew out of religion, and that at one time, the wizard and the scientist were one and the same.
One thing I really want to see less of: Attempting to make magic a form of "science." (Sorry, Mr. Butcher. That's the one thing I dislike about the Dresden-verse.) Magic(k) isn't science. Magic is religion.
When magic is assumed as science, it also assumes that, like science, magic is dispassionate towards mythology, culture, and tradition. In short, the urban fantasy axiom is "Magic is the same everywhere. Culture and tradition are just 'flavorings.' " In the real world, that just isn't true. Not all magic systems fit into the Egyptian/Golden Dawn/Wicca template. (Disagree ? Try plugging in the ancient Chinese, Babylonian, or tribal New Guinean magic systems into that template.)
It seems to me that all modern urban fantasy takes a magic-is-science approach because it is dispassionate and, as a result, won't offend anyone. In short, magic has become politically correct.
If your character is a Catholic, give him a Catholic viewpoint and make his magic match it according to Catholic tradition; If your character is Wiccan, give him (or her) a Wiccan viewpoint and make his magic match it.
Sure, it takes a LOT of extra research. But it makes magic less homogenous; As a result, you gain real-world verisimilitude and lose that "I cast a ninth-level fireball. Roll your saving throw" feel.
It seems to me that all modern urban fantasy takes a magic-is-science approach because it is dispassionate and, as a result, won't offend anyone. In short, magic has become politically correct.
Personally, when I write magic as science it's because it allows the reader to have a reasonable notion of what is and isn't possible, so you can play fair within the ground rules you set up. Magic that is not rational means that whatever difficulties and dilemmas your characters get into, there's always the lurking possibility that one of them can pull a magical solution out of their backside and save the day, even if you don't actually do that; and to me that undermines the possibility of generating many kinds of narrative tension.Exactly. I want enough eexplanation of the workings of the magic of the world that when the hero does something suitably impressive, I feel that too. I like magic having some amount of defined limitations, so that when they are pushed, surpassed, or even just circumvented with nice innovation, we feel as impressed as we should. An impressive amount of fireball in Dresden is a far cry from an impressive amount in Alera, for example.
Fictional takes on magic where you can hear the dice rolling for the damage the fireball does suck, I have no argument there. The other thing that strikes me as a possibility for magic-as-science, though, and that I've not often seen much done with, is magic-as-science that feels like actual real scientific research does, and has the excitement and adventure of being on an expanding frontier of human knowledge. As a working sicentist in my day job, this is one of the things I aspire to do in my fiction.One of the reasons I enjoyed Full-Metal Alchemist so much. I thought they took teh whole "magic still has to deal with physics" idea to a new level, and did it well.
Michael uses magic, its just powered by God,I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't think we've ever seen Micheal use magic.
Personally, when I write magic as science it's because it allows the reader to have a reasonable notion of what is and isn't possible, so you can play fair within the ground rules you set up. Magic that is not rational means that whatever difficulties and dilemmas your characters get into, there's always the lurking possibility that one of them can pull a magical solution out of their backside and save the day, even if you don't actually do that; and to me that undermines the possibility of generating many kinds of narrative tension.I agree.
Fictional takes on magic where you can hear the dice rolling for the damage the fireball does suck, I have no argument there. The other thing that strikes me as a possibility for magic-as-science, though, and that I've not often seen much done with, is magic-as-science that feels like actual real scientific research does, and has the excitement and adventure of being on an expanding frontier of human knowledge. As a working sicentist in my day job, this is one of the things I aspire to do in my fiction.
I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't think we've ever seen Micheal use magic.
"Iesu domine!" Michael's voice rang out from beneath the vampires like a brass army bugle, and with a sudden explosion of pressure and unseen force, bodies flew back and up, away from him, flesh ripped and torn from them, hanging in ragged, bloodless strips like cloth, showing gleaming, oily black flesh beneath. "Domine!" Michael shouted, rising, slewing gutted vamps off of him like a dog shakes off water. "Lava quod est sordium!"
Michael didn't come down into the lab with me because the whole concept of using magic without the Almighty behind it didn't sit well with him,
From GP:
Looks like magic to me. And how Michael isn't a big fan of magic that God isn't behind, which is a distinct difference than him being against all magic.
Ive been meaning to post a thread on the supposed difference between faith magic and normal magic, so ill do that to not derail this one.
Couldn't was Micheal does be called Theurgy, as opposed to Thaumaturgy, which is was Harry does?Thaumaturgy is just one school of magic that Harry practices. Its the voodoo doll side of it; Little Chicago and the tracking spells mostly. He also does a good bit of evocation, for example, and has dabbled in Necromancy. And Molly's viels would be an illusion, which is likely a separate school. Theurgy would be as good a term as any, but I dont see how its a separate thing.
Thaumaturgy is just one school of magic that Harry practices. Its the voodoo doll side of it; Little Chicago and the tracking spells mostly. He also does a good bit of evocation, for example, and has dabbled in Necromancy. And Molly's viels would be an illusion, which is likely a separate school. Theurgy would be as good a term as any, but I dont see how its a separate thing.
I would love to see an urban fantasy were the hero doesn't continually get more and more powerful each freaking book!! Jim does a good job of this since Harry only gets stronger through time and Tavi's powers a not special at all considering his father and mother.The power creep is pretty integral to any hero development. I mean, a hero who doesn't improve is just plain boring. And a hero who is supposed to be interesting over the course of multiple books has to improve somewhat because the challenges they face in each subsequent book needs to be challenging and more difficult than the last, else why are we interested in this characters development?
Now if your looking for a character who does not become "world-class" or even in the top tier of power, I recommend the Assassin's Quest Series. The main character is full-out stunted in his magical development, but he still plays an integral part in the survival of the world
I don't need my heroes to all be the god of whuppass. Just believable within the context of the world they're in.
Wish someone would peruse through the thread and careful and concisley put togther the most comman issues in a bull it point list
That's bullet point. I've just read this whole thing for the first time, and while I'm not going to go back and assign numerical rankings, these are the issues people have mentioned a bunch:
1. More diversity! -- We want different settings (Europe, other US cities, other parts of the world). We want authors who sound like they actually know about non-US cultures. We want US authors who make use of the actual diversity of the US.
You've all read the Watch books, right? The Russian urban fantasy series by Sergei Lukyanenko? The solution to everything being too US-centric is to read more foreign books.
2. More magical diversity! -- We want less of the trendy mythologies and critters and more of the weird ones. (Though we don't all agree on which should stay and which should go. Personally, I could do without any more "celtic" anything ever, and East Asian stuff often sounds like an anime ripoff.) We want real folklore monsters instead of movie Dracula. We want folklore we haven't heard of before and monsters that aren't in every single other UF book.
3. More magical diversity! -- Some of us like science-y magic, others don't. All of us agree that authors should be more creative about their magical systems. They need to be internally consistent and not the same as White Wolf or every other UF book.
4. More diversity of heroes! -- Ok, ok, no hero is going to be ordinary ordinary, but could we at least have some short, fat people in with our Xenas? Or someone who's not a PI, half vampire, or changeling? Or at least some plausible adults? These stories are set in the real world; let's have some heroes from there too.
5. No more sex! -- We're fantasy fans, not softcore porn vampire romance novel fans. More plot and less nookie, please! Pointless canoodling is what fanfiction is for.
6. No more series-itus! -- Many of us are sick of long series (not me!), but we're all sick of series that go on and on for no reason. Trilogies and stand-alone books, please! Overall series plot, please! No more jumping the shark Anita Blake style, for the love of god!
7. Good prose! -- Just because we like genre fiction doesn't mean we don't like good writing. Publishers need to stop pushing out crapfests just because they're in a trendy subgenre. We want good books!
So, basically, we want fresh, interesting books by actually talented authors instead of Extruded Urban Fantasy Product.
You've all read the Watch books, right? The Russian urban fantasy series by Sergei Lukyanenko? The solution to everything being too US-centric is to read more foreign books.
Well said.
well, there just aren't that many, not only because of few translations but also because the markets in other countries are much smaller. I recently read a German vampire novel which is in the general urban fantasy direction and it was rather stupid* (there are also 2 werewolf books by the same author, but I didn't bother checking them out).
*the style, the story, the setting, the characters, the (lack of) motivations - everything annoyed me.
As always, the real problem is that brilliant authors (and translators for that matter) just aren't as common as bad ones.
Most of all, though, competent translators are not cheap when working freelance. I'm one of the few with a full-time contract; I'm making okay money at it (in exchange for stability and reliability of paycheck - you'd be amazed at how many companies hire cousin Fred who took a year of language X back in high school to do their "translations" because it's cheaper that way),
Yeah, no kidding. I have vague aspirations of being a translator, but unfortunately, I'm more cousin Fred level in all of the foreign languages I've studied. Out of curiosity, are you a literary or technical translator? I know companies love to "save money" by hiring idiots to do the technical stuff, but I thought the problems with literary translation went beyond that--that there just isn't enough of a market in the US for translated fiction to support a proper crop of professional literary translators. It seems like everything really famous/good/important is translated by a professor and anything pulpy by someone with no creative writing skills. (Well, ok, not everything, but it does sometimes feel that way.)
I loved Night Watch specifically because it was set in Moscow and kept mentioning Russian rock bands and random details of modern life there. As always, the real problem is that brilliant authors (and translators for that matter) just aren't as common as bad ones.