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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on October 22, 2020, 06:32:28 PM
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Maybe I am the only one saying W.T.F. about the boat scene between Justine/HWWBs and Harry..
Then again, maybe not.
On page 359 of Battle Ground, Harry calls out to whatever is possessing Justine. It answers;
"It will do you no good once I've caved in your skull. Nemesis I am called."
Okay, get that, ever since Titania named of the Enemy to Harry, "Nemesis," we think we understand how it works.. But do we? For more than a couple of years now we've had the impression that one is infested or infected, passed on like any other infection, we even call it "Nemfected." There are lots of reasons for thinking this;
1] We think Aurora was Nemfected, perhaps by way of Elaine.
2] We know Lea was Nemfected, by way of the Knife she got from Cowl at Bianca's party.
3] Not sure how Cat Sith got Nemfected, but either by way of Lea and or the Knife
4] We know that Maeve was Nemfected, Mab confirmed it was the Knife..
5] Justine, Nemfected not sure how, several theories about when it may have happened.
Okay so far so good... Then you turn the page to 360 and Harry says he doesn't care what it is called, he demands it tell "him it's name."
She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper, " I am He Who Walks Beside." Hell's bells. A Walker.
Harry then goes on to be a bit freaked, "an Outsider with the power of a Walker."
We know that Harry defeated HWWB back when he was sixteen. An Outsider possessed Vittorio back in White Knight. We know about another Walker, He Who Walks Before in Cold Days, we know about corner hounds.. Question, do the Outsiders I just mentioned strike you as something you can pick up from a knife or a toilet seat like any other infection? Or are Outsiders the end product if the Nemesis infection goes on long enough and untreated in the victim?
To confuse things maybe a bit further or maybe it makes more sense, not sure.. But Harry tossing in there that he now understands who it is that he has been calling the Black Council or Circle all these years. The enemy he knew was out there but he couldn't put his finger on...It's been Nemesis all along.
Okay, but I am still a bit confused... Is Nemesis the name of the Enemy as Titania said, with the Outsiders and Walkers, corner hounds etc., it's soldiers? Or did I miss something?
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I think the 'Nemesis' title is in reference to all the forces of the Outside. Kind of like demons collectively referred to as 'Legion'. Harry compelled HWWBeside's name, like he did with HHWB4 (or gave it freely, not clear), and it gave it.
I believe the Walkers are a high class of Outsider, but are still outsiders, just a subdivision of the larger group.
#3) It was implied Cat Sith was ambushed by HWWB4, or possibly Maeve, at the garden/arboretum/etc.
In PT Eb, during the cornerhound fight, mentions that any contact with the Outside can potentially infect someone. One of the powers Starborn possess is immunity to that infection. Based on that dialogue, I think some things can be imbued with power from the Outside and have the potential to infect those who come into contact with it.
On another note, I think HWWBeside can possess anyone the is Nemfected, but can still pull strings in their heads when not directly controlling them.
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Well, my impression was simply that
Someone who is Nemfected = Someone possessed by He Who Walks Beside
What we all suspected already:
Nemfecter = Outsider => He Who Walks Beside = Outsider
And the final point:
I agree Walker is simply a category of Outsider.
So, what this tells us is that one Walker spends its time possessing people/things, and that Walker (who is an Outsider) is called HWWBesides. The other Walkers do other things.
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Jim wants you confused. Lea and Maeve are both infected by Proven Guilty. So two people can be hag ridden at the same time. But the question is by what?
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It's not you, Mira, it is confusing.
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Jim wants you confused. Lea and Maeve are both infected by Proven Guilty. So two people can be hag ridden at the same time. But the question is by what?
Yeah, they call me Nemesis, my name is HeWhoWalksBesides.. WTF?? Not to mention Lea and Maeve both got infected because they handled a cootie ridden Knife, but seemingly not possessed by an Outsider!
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Yeah, they call me Nemesis, my name is HeWhoWalksBesides.. WTF?? Not to mention Lea and Maeve both got infected because they handled a cootie ridden Knife, but seemingly not possessed by an Outsider!
That's my big question. Up until the Justine thing I thought of this being infected as just your thoughts being bent a certain way. But Justine is straight up possessed. For instance I don't think Maeve ever talked as the Outsider, she talked like her thinking was twisted, but she still thought of herself as Maeve. Justine was talking as a different person. It's confusing.
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Yeah, they call me Nemesis, my name is HeWhoWalksBesides.. WTF?? Not to mention Lea and Maeve both got infected because they handled a cootie ridden Knife, but seemingly not possessed by an Outsider!
I mean I'm not to sure about that. Remember Lea in Proven Guilty?
She gritted her teeth and said, "I cannot yet be trusted. It is not time. I would not be able to fulfill my promise to your mother, should you free me now. You must leave."
"Trusted?" I asked.
"No time," she said, voice strained again. "I cannot long keep it from taking hold of..." She shuddered and lowered her head. She lifted her face to me a few seconds later, and the madness had returned to her eyes. "Wait," she rasped. "I have reconsidered. Free me."
I traded a look with Thomas, and we both took a cautious step backward.
Lea's face twisted up with rage and she let out a howl that shook icicles from their positions. "Release me!"
Looking back, that sure seems like what happened with Cat Sith and Justine when HWWBS Assumed Direct Control™
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It's actually worse. In Cold Days you have , Maeve, Cat Sith and Justine now that I think about it. Cat Sith is both influenced early and then taken over completely late. And Sharkface is all over the place.
I no longer trust that Jim actually knows how it works.
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It's actually worse. In Cold Days you have , Maeve, Cat Sith and Justine now that I think about it. Cat Sith is both influenced early and then taken over completely late. And Sharkface is all over the place.
I no longer trust that Jim actually knows how it works.
That is a little too much, only because we don't know how it works...yet, it does not mean that he does not know.
Thing is, with Cat Sith, Maeve, etc it seemed that if you were nemfected it was like a sickness that slowly takes you until you are beyond help and you can't be back. But Justine has been infected for years and Harry thinks there is a chance to save her. I don't know, perhaps is because he thinks is a walker possessing her and if he vanquishes it, it will be completely gone and she will be free. But I don't know.
I was thinking something. Perhaps it would be easier to fight Nemesis if at least the walkers were defeated and for that it would be useful to have not only an starborn but more. Now, I don't think Drakul will be easy to convince ( :P) but perhaps Harry could manage to force Listen to work with him. Of course, if Elaine is an starborn too that would be very convenient. I don't see how that can be possible, but apparently there is a WoJ about it. There may be other starborns around but what I was thinking is that perhaps there is an starborn in Demonreach. And Harry could negotiate with him/her.
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Entities that are around for some time can gather a lot of names. When Harry summoned mother winter he used a few but not the most important ones.
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It doesn't seem that complicated when you think in computer terms.
- The Outer Gates are a Firewall that block almost all traffic from the Outside.
- Free Will Summoning is a Firewall Port that's open to the Outside that allows traffic in.
- Black Magic Use is something that opens local Ports on the user, which Outsiders can use to access the system.
- HWWBeside is a Hacker who's gotten inside the firewall and can use Black Magic Ports to open more Ports on local systems, including Remote Access Protocol.
- The Athame is a USB drive with HWWBeside's malware that will open Ports without Black Magic Use initiating the intrusion.
- HWWBeside is likely hosted on a system inside the Network (Reality), which is his foothold.
- HWWBeside might be able to pass from host to host if the right ports are open.
- The question is if HWWBeside is limited to one system at a time, or if he can be on several.
- The possession of Lea shown in PG implies that HWWBeside was trapped inside Lea at the time, but managed to escape her system and moved to another.
- This could mean HWWBeside is limited to actively possessing only one host at a time, but it may be that he can be on several (my guess would be three) and he didn't like having one of his install instances/licenses tied up on a quarantined system.
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Entities that are around for some time can gather a lot of names. When Harry summoned mother winter he used a few but not the most important ones.
But until that moment on the boat, did Harry have any clue that Outsiders were Nemesis? Or why does everyone go all Lord Voldermort when it comes to naming the enemy?
It doesn't seem that complicated when you think in computer terms.
The Outer Gates are a Firewall that block almost all traffic from the Outside.
Free Will Summoning is a Firewall Port that's open to the Outside that allows traffic in.
Black Magic Use is something that opens local Ports on the user, which Outsiders can use to access the system.
HWWBeside is a Hacker who's gotten inside the firewall and can use Black Magic Ports to open more Ports on local systems, including Remote Access Protocol.
The Athame is a USB drive with HWWBeside's malware that will open Ports without Black Magic Use initiating the intrusion.
HWWBeside is likely hosted on a system inside the Network (Reality), which is his foothold.
HWWBeside might be able to pass from host to host if the right ports are open.
The question is if HWWBeside is limited to one system at a time, or if he can be on several.
The possession of Lea shown in PG implies that HWWBeside was trapped inside Lea at the time, but managed to escape her system and moved to another.
This could mean HWWBeside is limited to actively possessing only one host at a time, but it may be that he can be on several (my guess would be three) and he didn't like having one of his install instances/licenses tied up on a quarantined system.
I can barely surf the net... So now I am even more confused.. ???
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Also we have already seen that one entity can have multiple instances at the same time. As early.as blood rites and the ape things that guarded Mouse. The huntsman in battle ground and the corner hounds.
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Perhaps it can manifest in 13 things?
Mira, I've got lost with Griff analogy too.
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But until that moment on the boat, did Harry have any clue that Outsiders were Nemesis? Or why does everyone go all Lord Voldermort when it comes to naming the enemy?
I can barely surf the net... So now I am even more confused.. ???
If you have a computer, or tablet, or smartphone, then it has a piece of hardware (these days usually a wireless component) that connects to the internet. That connection goes through a router or cell tower. But on a more granular scale, the device has logical "ports" that are like doorways dedicated to specific types of communication. Video uses one port, audio uses another, email uses another, web pages use another, bluetooth uses another, and so on, and so on.
One of those types of communication is called Remote Desktop Protocol. If it's enabled on your computer, and the right software is installed, then I can take control of your computer from wherever I am. I can look at your files, run programs on your computer, and even destroy your computer if I'm creative enough.
Other methods of connecting would allow me to remotely spy on what you're doing. Others would let me modify some files and what they do.
To prevent me from doing that, your computer has the ability to close the ports/doors that shouldn't be in use. You can also have a device on the network that you connect to (a Firewall) that can further restrict what can get in and out of the network.
In theory, Black Magic is an app on your device that if you choose to use, it opens ports. If the Hacker named Beside has gotten inside the Network, and finds the ports open, then he can try to install more software through them that will give him more and more access to your computer.
Or, if you're unlucky, someone can plug a device (usb stick, memory card, etc) that has the Hacker software on it, and that software is installed locally and gives over immediate access to all those ports that were previously closed for your safety.
In the magical sense, Beside does the same thing, but with the spirit/mind/body. Black magic opens a path into the mind, which he can see through or listen or whisper. The more he whispers, the more it opens to him, until he can fully possess and control.
Or, using a vector like the Athame, the paths are opened without the slow infection and without consent.
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Ok, that actually helps (I knew about ports and firewalls but I did not get your analogy). So, what would be the relevance of free will?
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I think an infection in this context is just that part of nemesis spiritual essence is contaminating the hosts essence just like a denarian shadow can be seen as an denarian infection.
It was part of Lasciel in Harry. Harry managed to give that part a seperate identity and it became Lash, he severed the connection with Lasciel.
The nemesis infective essence keeps being nemesis and can be used to channel the rest of nemesis. To influence the host or to be used as an entrance for total possession. So an infection is managed by the rest of nemesis and a possessed host can speak for the whole.
Like the other multi instance beings the individual instances become weaker if they are spread too thin and stronger if they get together. That gives a limit to the infection but not a hard number.
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Ok, that actually helps (I knew about ports and firewalls but I did not get your analogy). So, what would be the relevance of free will?
When you download an app to your smartphone or computer of your own free will, you're enabling it to do things to your device. Lots of people download apps like TikTok without knowing the things it does in the background of your device. TikTok has code to access all sorts of things it doesn't need, which is why people are so suspicious of it. And worse apps do all sorts of bad things.
The same goes (theoretically) in the Dresdenverse with magic. If you use magic, you're opening yourself up to power. If you use Black Magic, or specific types of Black Magic, then you're opening your spirit to that form of power. And just like with computer, these openings can be bidirectional.
With both apps and magic, people can warn others until they're blue in the face, and developers/wizards can try to protect people with software/laws, but at the end of the day, the user/practitioner is the one that will decide, knowingly or otherwise.
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What's known:
A Walker is a powerful Outsider.
They are Outsider Knights.
There are almost certainly three. Mac has strongly implied there are three Walkers.
They are He Who Walks Behind, He Who Walks Before, and He Who Walks Beside.
Nemesis is singular. Nemesis is repeatedly referred to as "it," not they or them.
Names are important and guarded. We often know things not by their names, but by what they are called. For example, Harry has a fairy servant called Lacuna and another called Toot. We don't know either's Name. Hell, I'm called Bad Alias. That's certainly not my name.
So, HWWBeside is an Outsider Knight, which are known as Walkers, called Nemesis.
What I think on possession/infection by HWWBeside: They're the same thing. Subtle manipulation to out and out control are both forms of possession as I understand it from everything I've ever seen on possession.
@Griffyn612: How do you fit Harry's black magic corruption into your theory of black magic being an opening to infection? Was his corruption simply an opening that couldn't be used? I once thought that all black magic corruption could be nemfection, but I'm not sure that's possible anymore.
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I think an infection in this context is just that part of nemesis spiritual essence is contaminating the hosts essence just like a denarian shadow can be seen as an denarian infection.
It was part of Lasciel in Harry. Harry managed to give that part a seperate identity and it became Lash, he severed the connection with Lasciel.
The nemesis infective essence keeps being nemesis and can be used to channel the rest of nemesis. To influence the host or to be used as an entrance for total possession. So an infection is managed by the rest of nemesis and a possessed host can speak for the whole.
Like the other multi instance beings the individual instances become weaker if they are spread too thin and stronger if they get together. That gives a limit to the infection but not a hard number.
That makes sense. We don't know about Aurora, what kind of Summer Lady she was. But we do know about Maeve, her "mommy issues" and other frustration that left her vulnerable to infestation. Likewise Lea, and I wrote a thread about it a while back after rereading Grave Peril, that Lea seemed infected before she ever came in contact with the Knife. She may not have been but there was an air of discontent about her and in fact a hunger for power that made her vulnerable. I think it also interesting that none of the above were actually possessed by an Outsider, maybe because it would be too easy to detect.
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That makes sense. We don't know about Aurora, what kind of Summer Lady she was. But we do know about Maeve, her "mommy issues" and other frustration that left her vulnerable to infestation. Likewise Lea, and I wrote a thread about it a while back after rereading Grave Peril, that Lea seemed infected before she ever came in contact with the Knife. She may not have been but there was an air of discontent about her and in fact a hunger for power that made her vulnerable. I think it also interesting that none of the above were actually possessed by an Outsider, maybe because it would be too easy to detect.
Mab stated clearly that it was the knife that infected Lea and the knife was given to her by the red court, a treacherous gift she called it herself confirming what Mab said. The knife had power and I think that power contained part of the power of nemesis.
I think the infection came when she used the power of the knife in grave peril.
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I was thinking Nemesis has the choice between changing something and actively possessing it? Like say, she altered Sith, but since those alterations weren't enough in the face of Harry's confrontation it had to overwhelm Sith to stay active in him and not allow Harry to change him back? So anything she altered she COULD possess, but doesn't not have to actively be present at all times?
The outsiders vs walker difference is kinda odd... Maybe Walkers are not necessarily always outsiders? I mean, HWWBH has ritual spells that summon him for magical effects.. not just some spell, but an actual ritual, a rite. That's always seemed odd to me if he's supposed to be an outsider. So Nemesis is an outsider.. with the ability to walk the paths back to people to possess? Which is kinda different than a regular outsider... Idk for sure.
Alot of the stuff introduced in PT/BG has challenged our understanding of the DF metaphysics/lore, and those changes have not been fully fleshed out for our understanding..
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The outsiders vs walker difference is kinda odd... Maybe Walkers are not necessarily always outsiders? I mean, HWWBH has ritual spells that summon him for magical effects.. not just some spell, but an actual ritual, a rite. That's always seemed odd to me if he's supposed to be an outsider. So Nemesis is an outsider.. with the ability to walk the paths back to people to possess? Which is kinda different than a regular outsider... Idk for sure.
Oh my, I didn't think of that! :o More confusion..
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Walkers are a subset of outsiders.
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When you download an app to your smartphone or computer of your own free will, you're enabling it to do things to your device. Lots of people download apps like TikTok without knowing the things it does in the background of your device. TikTok has code to access all sorts of things it doesn't need, which is why people are so suspicious of it. And worse apps do all sorts of bad things.
The same goes (theoretically) in the Dresdenverse with magic. If you use magic, you're opening yourself up to power. If you use Black Magic, or specific types of Black Magic, then you're opening your spirit to that form of power. And just like with computer, these openings can be bidirectional.
With both apps and magic, people can warn others until they're blue in the face, and developers/wizards can try to protect people with software/laws, but at the end of the day, the user/practitioner is the one that will decide, knowingly or otherwise.
As a tentative hypothesis this has merit. But Justine isn't a magic user. What's her path to infection?
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Ok, trying to wiggle out some understanding gave me an idea..
1 the old ones used to be part of reality
2 The walkers were their knights, ergo a part of reality
3 knights as we know them exist for a specific purpose, they have free will.
4 so... Walkers still possess the ability to act independently and this is how they keep getting inside even without direct help. Someone does something that creates an opening for them, and they slide on in, even without them directly trying to reach beyond the outer gates.
I still think mirroring has something to do with it.. like they can influence those that mirror them because they create a beacon they can find from the other side..
So 'an outsider with the power of a walker' is just a complicated way of saying an outsider that can interfere with Fate itself? Which.. they do indeed do, changing fae and what not.
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As a tentative hypothesis this has merit. But Justine isn't a magic user. What's her path to infection?
Cat Sith wasn’t either. Just grab her and infect her. She won’t tell if the infection holds.
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Cat Sith wasn’t either. Just grab her and infect her. She won’t tell if the infection holds.
he could move in and out of the NN and basically teleport where needed though? I think since the fae are all magic based they don't necessarily have to be a practitioner to USE magic. It's just part of who they are.
*I'm a long prescriber to the theory Justine is a changling, she was too emotional, emotion is a(THE) basic manifestation of magic, Harry mentioned this in one of the two new books but I cannot recall where.
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he could move in and out of the NN and basically teleport where needed though? I think since the fae are all magic based they don't necessarily have to be a practitioner to USE magic. It's just part of who they are.
*I'm a long prescriber to the theory Justine is a changling, she was too emotional, emotion is a(THE) basic manifestation of magic, Harry mentioned this in one of the two new books but I cannot recall where.
The point is there does not always have to be an invitation, free will or not. Sometimes someone is just grabbed and infected. I do not see why magic is needed either. Corpstaker could grab anyone and take over.
Sure an invitation would make it easier but that is all.
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The point is there does not always have to be an invitation, free will or not. Sometimes someone is just grabbed and infected. I do not see why magic is needed either. Corpstaker could grab anyone and take over.
Sure an invitation would make it easier but that is all.
corpse taker used magic though... And she had free will to violate others free will. Though I'm supposing above that walkers also possess some measure of free will to act.
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corpse taker used magic though... And she had free will to violate others free will. Though I'm supposing above that walkers also possess some measure of free will to act.
Who says the Outsiders/Nemesis need magic to get into someone's head? Maybe that is what the danger is all about, creatures that really don't give a damn about free will.
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Who says the Outsiders/Nemesis need magic to get into someone's head? Maybe that is what the danger is all about, creatures that really don't give a damn about free will.
nobody did.... Well, technically Griff did. They were talking about magic being used as the conduit. Not as the active effect . I merely pointed out magic is present in the situations where it has happened.
Them being creatures who don't give a damn about free will is what I said actually..
Also, this is why warlocks and other black magic users mirror them imo, they find a common denominator in not caring about violating the free will of others, also, magic is present.
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@Griffyn612: How do you fit Harry's black magic corruption into your theory of black magic being an opening to infection? Was his corruption simply an opening that couldn't be used? I once thought that all black magic corruption could be nemfection, but I'm not sure that's possible anymore.
In computers, ports can be bidirectional, inbound, outbound, or closed. If there is a port that allows Beside to look in, another port for him to whisper in, and another for him to take remote control, then for Starborn, those ports might work differently than other mortals.
For Justine, those ports might be bidirectional. For Harry, they might be outbound only, meaning he can send his message/power out at Outsiders, but they can't send it in to him. He's got a built-in firewall/antivirus that has his system protected.
As a tentative hypothesis this has merit. But Justine isn't a magic user. What's her path to infection?
We're not sure when she infected, much less how. But my guess is that they used a vector.
My personal guess is that she was exposed to infection on that Fomor raid we heard about in Even Hand. Maybe it was before that, but the text in Cold Days suggests otherwise, at least to me.
My guess is someone used something on her, like the Athame or hex belt, which (like a usb connected directly to a machine) installed Beside's protocols directly, without consent.
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My personal guess is that she was exposed to infection on that Fomor raid we heard about in Even Hand. Maybe it was before that, but the text in Cold Days suggests otherwise, at least to me.
My thinking is that it was before, Grave Peril while she was held captive by Bianca. Then like a encysted parasite or an anthrax spore,it slept in her brain, first metagating her mental health symptoms that were attributed to controlled feeding by Thomas. Nothing was noticed because it as so gradual, until it was in the perfect position to not only undermine the White Court, but the whole of the Accords.
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In computers, ports can be bidirectional, inbound, outbound, or closed. If there is a port that allows Beside to look in, another port for him to whisper in, and another for him to take remote control, then for Starborn, those ports might work differently than other mortals.
And some people just unscrew the box and replace the hard drive.
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In keeping with the computer analogy, Starborn would be a combination of fire wall+antivirus then?
... This actually makes me think of Nemesis as something like the agents from the matrix, it can jump in and out of any hardware connected to it's primary system... Or would that be more like agent smith, who over writes the program already there with its own?
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It doesn't seem that complicated when you think in computer terms.
- The Outer Gates are a Firewall that block almost all traffic from the Outside.
- Free Will Summoning is a Firewall Port that's open to the Outside that allows traffic in.
- Black Magic Use is something that opens local Ports on the user, which Outsiders can use to access the system.
- HWWBeside is a Hacker who's gotten inside the firewall and can use Black Magic Ports to open more Ports on local systems, including Remote Access Protocol.
- The Athame is a USB drive with HWWBeside's malware that will open Ports without Black Magic Use initiating the intrusion.
- HWWBeside is likely hosted on a system inside the Network (Reality), which is his foothold.
- HWWBeside might be able to pass from host to host if the right ports are open.
- The question is if HWWBeside is limited to one system at a time, or if he can be on several.
- The possession of Lea shown in PG implies that HWWBeside was trapped inside Lea at the time, but managed to escape her system and moved to another.
- This could mean HWWBeside is limited to actively possessing only one host at a time, but it may be that he can be on several (my guess would be three) and he didn't like having one of his install instances/licenses tied up on a quarantined system.
This makes sense to me and clarifies some things. The last one though leans towards your second observation - since HWWBs has had an active role in the background for much longer. So it being locked up in Lea was more like Mab didn't want her second infected and was 'burning' the infection out. And HWWBs didn't like being quarantined (as you say), but slipped out and got Maeve.
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My thinking is that it was before, Grave Peril while she was held captive by Bianca. Then like a encysted parasite or an anthrax spore,it slept in her brain, first metagating her mental health symptoms that were attributed to controlled feeding by Thomas. Nothing was noticed because it as so gradual, until it was in the perfect position to not only undermine the White Court, but the whole of the Accords.
We might find out eventually, but it seems like an odd choice to me. Justine was a young girl dating the outcast son of the White Court King. Lord Raith was clearly willing to use Outsiders, as he trained Madge to summon Behind. I don't see the value in infecting Justine at that time.
As the book said, her getting infected when Justine got close to the leader of the White Court makes more sense to me.
And some people just unscrew the box and replace the hard drive.
That analogy would have to go with... Amanda Beckitt.
In keeping with the computer analogy, Starborn would be a combination of fire wall+antivirus then?
... This actually makes me think of Nemesis as something like the agents from the matrix, it can jump in and out of any hardware connected to it's primary system... Or would that be more like agent smith, who over writes the program already there with its own?
Beside would be a lot like Agent Smith, but I doubt Beside is as powerful as Smith. Maybe Smith from the first movie, where he's limited to one host. The mass host thing just seems wrong to me.
But yeah, a Starborn has built in protection against the Outsiders, which would be like having protection from his ports being manipulated. His ability to control them or have power over them, which I think was mentioned by Lash, would be that his outbound ports are open to send power at them, and likewise they can't close their own inbound ports against him.
This makes sense to me and clarifies some things. The last one though leans towards your second observation - since HWWBs has had an active role in the background for much longer. So it being locked up in Lea was more like Mab didn't want her second infected and was 'burning' the infection out. And HWWBs didn't like being quarantined (as you say), but slipped out and got Maeve.
Yeah, I think Mab would have preferred Beside be trapped, but not in Lea. She's too important.
It does make me wonder if Mab's threat to get vengeance on everyone involved would include Harry, if his attack on the Winter Spring played a role in Beside escaping and infecting Maeve.
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We might find out eventually, but it seems like an odd choice to me. Justine was a young girl dating the outcast son of the White Court King. Lord Raith was clearly willing to use Outsiders, as he trained Madge to summon Behind. I don't see the value in infecting Justine at that time.
Long term planning, if you want to plant an effective mole in a tight and dangerous organization. You do it slowly with someone nonthreatening, gain trust, love and feeding the son of the head of the House is perfect positioning. It took years to achieve that, in the end no one suspected her,not Lara, no one. It wasn't until he had ten minutes to think did Harry, tired as he was, figured it out. If he hadn't Nemesis would have successfully penetrated the defenses of Demonreach. Long term planning.
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Long term planning, if you want to plant an effective mole in a tight and dangerous organization. You do it slowly with someone nonthreatening, gain trust, love and feeding the son of the head of the House is perfect positioning. It took years to achieve that, in the end no one suspected her,not Lara, no one. It wasn't until he had ten minutes to think did Harry, tired as he was, figured it out. If he hadn't Nemesis would have successfully penetrated the defenses of Demonreach. Long term planning.
Except that that requires Nemesis somehow know both that Lara was going to supplant her father, AND that Thomas would somehow force himself to stop feeding from Justine despite it being impossible, (giving her the protection that makes her useful to Lara) years in advance.
Like, if the Walkers were that prescient, Harry wouldn't keep tripping them up.
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What I don't understand is, is Justine going to be weakened by the hunger? (I mean, while the baby is inside Justine) or not? Perhaps the infection gave her resistance to hunger.
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Hard to say. Nemesis infection seems to change nature of beings though.
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What I don't understand is, is Justine going to be weakened by the hunger? (I mean, while the baby is inside Justine) or not? Perhaps the infection gave her resistance to hunger.
Was it said somewhere that most mortal women don't survive the birthing, or that it's hard for them? I mean, the demon doesn't kick in until the Wamp kids hit puberty, right? I'd imagine it's not trying to feed until they're older. But I can't recall if something was said about that.
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We might find out eventually, but it seems like an odd choice to me. Justine was a young girl dating the outcast son of the White Court King. Lord Raith was clearly willing to use Outsiders, as he trained Madge to summon Behind. I don't see the value in infecting Justine at that time.
As the book said, her getting infected when Justine got close to the leader of the White Court makes more sense to me.
That analogy would have to go with... Amanda Beckitt.
Beside would be a lot like Agent Smith, but I doubt Beside is as powerful as Smith. Maybe Smith from the first movie, where he's limited to one host. The mass host thing just seems wrong to me.
But yeah, a Starborn has built in protection against the Outsiders, which would be like having protection from his ports being manipulated. His ability to control them or have power over them, which I think was mentioned by Lash, would be that his outbound ports are open to send power at them, and likewise they can't close their own inbound ports against him.
Yeah, I think Mab would have preferred Beside be trapped, but not in Lea. She's too important.
It does make me wonder if Mab's threat to get vengeance on everyone involved would include Harry, if his attack on the Winter Spring played a role in Beside escaping and infecting Maeve.
Not at all because infecting Maeve and Aurora must have been the first thing Nemesis did after infecting Lea in Grave Peril. No reason to wait and risk the whole operation.
After that Nemesis tried to keep its presence in winter hidden but Lea became aware and started to resist. That happened somewhere before dead beat.
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Was it said somewhere that most mortal women don't survive the birthing, or that it's hard for them? I mean, the demon doesn't kick in until the Wamp kids hit puberty, right? I'd imagine it's not trying to feed until they're older. But I can't recall if something was said about that.
yea, Thomas I think it was talked about the hunger feeds on the mother, which is a disconnect from it manifesting at puberty.. maybe it needs to gather energy and go from larva to cocoon... And the first feeding is what basically breaks the cocoon to let a fully fledged hunger demon emerge?
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Was it said somewhere that most mortal women don't survive the birthing, or that it's hard for them? I mean, the demon doesn't kick in until the Wamp kids hit puberty, right? I'd imagine it's not trying to feed until they're older. But I can't recall if something was said about that.
That is the impression given from the descriptions of 'coming of age' white vampires, from the youngest Raith (Inara or something?) and from the short story with River Shoulders son.
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yea, Thomas I think it was talked about the hunger feeds on the mother, which is a disconnect from it manifesting at puberty.. maybe it needs to gather energy and go from larva to cocoon... And the first feeding is what basically breaks the cocoon to let a fully fledged hunger demon emerge?
It is sort of logical. Where else does all the spiritual energy for growth come from? The demon has to grow too.
What can be dangerous is that the child is feeder nemesis contaminated spiritual energy. That can give as many complications as Jim wants.
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Thomas said that the child's hunger fed from Justine (during all the pregnancy, I understood) and that only 50% of the mothers survived the actual birthright.
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Thomas said that the child's hunger fed from Justine (during all the pregnancy, I understood) and that only 50% of the mothers survived the actual birthright.
Yup, and remember I took heat because I asked whether or not, as hard as it would be if they had considered aborting since the chances were very high that Justine wouldn't survive the pregnancy.
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Yup, and remember I took heat because I asked whether or not, as hard as it would be if they had considered aborting since the chances were very high that Justine wouldn't survive the pregnancy.
That was not the point. It was a logical thing for Thomas and Justine to consider.
It was just not something for Harry to bring up.
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That was not the point. It was a logical thing for Thomas and Justine to consider.
It was just not something for Harry to bring up.
Agreed, the man who decided "fuck the world, fuck the family I made here in Chicago, what really matters is my Blood Daughter." would not be the man to suggest that.
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Probably not. As apparently, Susan did not either. But yes, Thomas and Justine should have (considered, I mean. Not necessarily deciding)
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Probably not. As apparently, Susan did not either. But yes, Thomas and Justine should have (considered, I mean. Not necessarily deciding)
But in the light of what happened in the light of Battle Ground at the end it is almost certain that Justine would have argued strongly against it.
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Yes.
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In computers, ports can be bidirectional, inbound, outbound, or closed. If there is a port that allows Beside to look in, another port for him to whisper in, and another for him to take remote control, then for Starborn, those ports might work differently than other mortals.
For Justine, those ports might be bidirectional. For Harry, they might be outbound only, meaning he can send his message/power out at Outsiders, but they can't send it in to him. He's got a built-in firewall/antivirus that has his system protected.
I might be missing something in your analogy, but my point is that Harry was corrupted by his use of black magic. If black magic corruption is Outsider corruption, and Harry is immune from black magic corruption, then Harry can't be corrupted by his use of black magic, except in the mundane real world sense that bad acts corrupt a person.
Like, if the Walkers were that prescient, Harry wouldn't keep tripping them up.
While I agree that Justine was infected after BR, Harry's always tripping people up who seem plenty prescient. While he's very predictable to us, he seems to be a mystery to many of the powers that be.
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I might be missing something in your analogy, but my point is that Harry was corrupted by his use of black magic. If black magic corruption is Outsider corruption, and Harry is immune from black magic corruption, then Harry can't be corrupted by his use of black magic, except in the mundane real world sense that bad acts corrupt a person.
My take is that Harry is immune specifically to outsider influence and corruption. He's clearly affected by it, as the third eye junkie could see the stain left by Behind. And Harry seemed aware of it, which could imply others like Eb saw it and told him, since he's never soulgazed himself.
I would consider it more like a scar or stain, but one that doesn't get worse over time. I'm not sure there's an exact correlation with the port analogy.
The closest I can think of is black magic puts a hole in a steel shield, and Outsider corruption is rust that slowly degrades the metal until it's weakened and compromised. Being a Starborn, Harry's shield has some extra materials included (nickel and chromium) that make it rust-proof.
So maybe he still gets the dent or hole from black magic, and it's visible, but it's not as bad as what others would deal with.
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He might be immune to the corruption caused by black magic, but that doesn't mean he's immune to the direct effects of changing who he is and how he thinks. He's choosing to be that way, choosing to use his magic in that way. Just like everything else, you can't protect from yourself.
One thing I think we're overlooking though is black magic as a drug, something that weakens your willpower to resist possession. This is also possibly why Justine has been apparently completely overpowered, she was addicted to Thomas.
To use griff's analogy above, Harry gets a hole from it still, but outsiders can't move into that space because of his starborn protection. Perhaps why so many things and factions have sought to shape him of recruit him. His own actions still shape him, and they could still shape him into something they could use.
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He might be immune to the corruption caused by black magic, but that doesn't mean he's immune to the direct effects of changing who he is and how he thinks. He's choosing to be that way, choosing to use his magic in that way. Just like everything else, you can't protect from yourself.
One thing I think we're overlooking though is black magic as a drug, something that weakens your willpower to resist possession. This is also possibly why Justine has been apparently completely overpowered, she was addicted to Thomas.
To use griff's analogy above, Harry gets a hole from it still, but outsiders can't move into that space because of his starborn protection. Perhaps why so many things and factions have sought to shape him of recruit him. His own actions still shape him, and they could still shape him into something they could use.
He's clearly susceptible to manipulation from Inside power. He went a bit dark side after consuming dark power from the Nightmare. He's given in to the dark power of the Winter Knight mantle. He started losing his temper under the shadow of a coin. He was hypnotized be the allure of necromancer power from Evil Bob.
The only bad influence we've seen him easily resist is Outsider pressure. So he's definitely vulnerable to the manipulation of others.
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He's clearly susceptible to manipulation from Inside power. He went a bit dark side after consuming dark power from the Nightmare. He's given in to the dark power of the Winter Knight mantle. He started losing his temper under the shadow of a coin. He was hypnotized be the allure of necromancer power from Evil Bob.
The only bad influence we've seen him easily resist is Outsider pressure. So he's definitely vulnerable to the manipulation of others.
manipulation sure, but I'd argue most of those were still him making the choices on some level. The WK mantle makes his inner voices louder, Lash had subliminal discussions with his ID, he ate the nightmares chi, Evil Bob mesmerized him, but in the end had to try old fashioned recruitment too, ect. Though of course he's not immune to manipulation, no. Like the WCV's power. Or what evil Bob did. But most of these seem to work on other levels than purely psychic, which seems to be the ultimate display of power, Willpower. I think that's where he's got the edge. Even his display against MW was the will of one tiny mortal against a cosmic level being. Course... She might be kinda outsiderish too...
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I might be missing something in your analogy, but my point is that Harry was corrupted by his use of black magic. If black magic corruption is Outsider corruption, and Harry is immune from black magic corruption, then Harry can't be corrupted by his use of black magic, except in the mundane real world sense that bad acts corrupt a person.
Not quite, Harry has been tainted by it according to the Ulsharavas back in Death Mask. It felt it on Harry, who admitted to a bad call or two, but said most of it wasn't of his doing. So no, Harry isn't immune to black magic corruption, but one can move beyond it. Charity must have done some black magic, though perhaps innocently, but she was on her way to becoming a warlock before that dragon got her, Michael saved her, and she swore off magic all together.
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manipulation sure, but I'd argue most of those were still him making the choices on some level. The WK mantle makes his inner voices louder, Lash had subliminal discussions with his ID, he ate the nightmares chi, Evil Bob mesmerized him, but in the end had to try old fashioned recruitment too, ect. Though of course he's not immune to manipulation, no. Like the WCV's power. Or what evil Bob did. But most of these seem to work on other levels than purely psychic, which seems to be the ultimate display of power, Willpower. I think that's where he's got the edge. Even his display against MW was the will of one tiny mortal against a cosmic level being. Course... She might be kinda outsiderish too...
I think the mantle is doing more than making his inner voice louder.
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I think the mantle is doing more than making his inner voice louder.
that's the way it was explained to us though. It hasn't made him do anything completely abnormal for him imo. He's always been a bit of a repressed hound dog, he's always had tendency towards anger, and everyone has a primal side to tap for the basic stuff like territory and what not Now, if he started eating people or something like some of the previous famous winter knights then definitely more than that. They were screwy from the beginning I think though. Their inner voices had bad juju to them...
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manipulation sure, but I'd argue most of those were still him making the choices on some level. The WK mantle makes his inner voices louder, Lash had subliminal discussions with his ID, he ate the nightmares chi, Evil Bob mesmerized him, but in the end had to try old fashioned recruitment too, ect. Though of course he's not immune to manipulation, no. Like the WCV's power. Or what evil Bob did. But most of these seem to work on other levels than purely psychic, which seems to be the ultimate display of power, Willpower. I think that's where he's got the edge. Even his display against MW was the will of one tiny mortal against a cosmic level being. Course... She might be kinda outsiderish too...
It's a slope, and what we've seen is him at the very top, putting one foot out. It starts with very subtle shifts in personality or behavior that he doesn't notice. Then it gets worse, and worse, until he's acting out of character for what he originally was.
Until...
I think the mantle is doing more than making his inner voice louder.
Exactly thia. He spent basically no time fighting the mantle in Battle Ground. He leaned into it a few times. He recognized it influencing him in the final battle with Ethniu, and recognizing her vulnerability, and it didn't caution him. He felt it leading his bannermen, and it didn't phase him. He embraced it on the march though the city.
He's fully capable of going dark side. He's just immune to the specific threats of the Outsiders.
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He might be immune to the corruption caused by black magic.
I'm pretty sure he's not.
My specific question to Griff is whether or not black magic corruption is Outsider corruption. I ask this because I believe Harry was corrupted by black magic. If a starborn is immune to Outsider corruption, then Harry would be immune from black magic corruption if it was Outsider corruption.
Harry isn't immune from black magic corruption, therefore black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption. (At least that's my thinking assuming starborn are immune to Outsider corruption).
Now it could be that starborn have really strong resistance, not immunity, to Outsider corruption. This would explain why Harry didn't go full warlock from his corruption and why borderline 1st Law violations don't seem to have any affect on him. Killing the Turtlenecks with magic might make a regular wizard go full on cackling evil. But for Harry, it's no big deal. (Or they're not 1st Law violations at all). I'd have to carefully parse what Eb said in PT about it.
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Now it could be that starborn have really strong resistance, not immunity, to Outsider corruption. This would explain why Harry didn't go full warlock from his corruption and why borderline 1st Law violations don't seem to have any affect on him. Killing the Turtlenecks with magic might make a regular wizard go full on cackling evil. But for Harry, it's no big deal. (Or they're not 1st Law violations at all). I'd have to carefully parse what Eb said in PT about it.
Part of that is, can the Turtlenecks be considered human? They may have been when kidnapped, but they have been genetically altered, they have gills they can live underwater, so would killing them really be breaking the First Law? When does ordinary magic become Black? Just because someone dies, does that make it Black? Or is it just breaking the First Law?
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Part of that is, can the Turtlenecks be considered human? They may have been when kidnapped, but they have been genetically altered, they have gills they can live underwater, so would killing them really be breaking the First Law? When does ordinary magic become Black? Just because someone dies, does that make it Black? Or is it just breaking the First Law?
The outward signs are not the most important, it is about how the non material part is changed. And there is no hard border, being human has a grey area.
And with these cases it is only braking the law if the council says so.
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My specific question to Griff is whether or not black magic corruption is Outsider corruption. I ask this because I believe Harry was corrupted by black magic. If a starborn is immune to Outsider corruption, then Harry would be immune from black magic corruption if it was Outsider corruption.
Harry isn't immune from black magic corruption, therefore black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption. (At least that's my thinking assuming starborn are immune to Outsider corruption).
Now it could be that starborn have really strong resistance, not immunity, to Outsider corruption. This would explain why Harry didn't go full warlock from his corruption and why borderline 1st Law violations don't seem to have any affect on him. Killing the Turtlenecks with magic might make a regular wizard go full on cackling evil. But for Harry, it's no big deal. (Or they're not 1st Law violations at all). I'd have to carefully parse what Eb said in PT about it.
I think magic a spectrum of energy, with different types of magic working at different frequencies.
I think Outsider magic (spells, incantations) is on a specific frequency that goes Outside. I think the Outsider frequency is in the dark end of the spectrum, so it's dark magic, but not the same as other dark magics. Hellfire is a dark magic, but it's a different frequency.
Likewise, faith magic, soulfire, and other examples that we don't see much of are light magic.
I think mortal magic is unique because it's basically neutral, but the intent and the result can both change the frequency. If Harry casts fire to light a candle, it's not dark. If he does it to kill someone, or he inadvertently kills someone with it, then a spiritual backlash occurs that taints it as dark. That pain and suffering that his magic causes splashes back on his magic/aura/spirit/soul, and it stains it.
It's easier to picture it as paint. If every mortal starts off with a gray base paint, then how they use their magic will affect the color. Do something dark, like killing someone, and you're going to get a splash of black in that gray. Use your power for good, like making a baby laugh, and you're going to get a splash of white. And since every type of black magic is its own color/frequency, it can be distinguished from others.
Likewise, if you come into contact with magic that's dark enough, and it comes into contact with your spirit/paintcan, then stains can be left even without your involvement.
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I'm pretty sure he's not.
My specific question to Griff is whether or not black magic corruption is Outsider corruption. I ask this because I believe Harry was corrupted by black magic. If a starborn is immune to Outsider corruption, then Harry would be immune from black magic corruption if it was Outsider corruption.
Harry isn't immune from black magic corruption, therefore black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption.
I don't think personally it's the same, but interrelated. My theory involves magic being an unbalanced force in creation and all that, but I simpler way to explain it, I have.(totally didn't mean to talk like Yoda, but there it is lol) black magic is the vector by which it travels as in, a disease vector is any agent which carries and transmits an infectious pathogen into another living organism
we know Morgana's Atheme was a vector for Nemesis but have we considered WHY? Morgana was probably a black magic user, she used her Atheme for black magic and tainted it. Leah using something tainted with black magic is what then gave Nemesis the way in. So it's not necessarily the same to be relative to it. It's simply something that acts as the conduction agent.
*If copper were black magic, lightning would be Nemesis, and Harry would be made of rubber.
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The outward signs are not the most important, it is about how the non material part is changed. And there is no hard border, being human has a grey area.
And with these cases it is only braking the law if the council says so.
Which is a set up, or what the judge said about whether something was pornography or not, "I know it when I see it." What sucks is likely every Senior Wizard that was at the battle along with Carlos, probably made the same kills as Harry.
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Part of that is, can the Turtlenecks be considered human? They may have been when kidnapped, but they have been genetically altered, they have gills they can live underwater, so would killing them really be breaking the First Law? When does ordinary magic become Black? Just because someone dies, does that make it Black? Or is it just breaking the First Law?
I don't know whether the Turtlenecks, or any of the other borderline cases we've seen, count as mortals for the 1st Law. That's why I threw that parenthetical out there.
When magic causes the death of a mortal, it's black magic. Jim's made that very clear. He has not made causes and mortal very clear though. Also he hasn't made it clear whether or not any exceptions to the general rule apply.
And with these cases it is only braking the law if the council says so.
The way I see it is that there is Law. It exists independent of the Council as a part of the fundamental nature of the universe. A rule of cause and effect. Do X and Y happens. Then there is the Council's rule that you can't do X. If you do X, we kill you. X being a "violation" of the natural law. What matters for the Council's enforcement of the natural law is their interpretation of it. Their interpretation of the law and what the law is aren't one to one.
What I'm getting from Griff and Sibelis is that black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption, but is the fertile ground suited for the growth of Outsider corruption.
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I don't know whether the Turtlenecks, or any of the other borderline cases we've seen, count as mortals for the 1st Law. That's why I threw that parenthetical out there.
When magic causes the death of a mortal, it's black magic. Jim's made that very clear. He has not made causes and mortal very clear though. Also he hasn't made it clear whether or not any exceptions to the general rule apply.
The way I see it is that there is Law. It exists independent of the Council as a part of the fundamental nature of the universe. A rule of cause and effect. Do X and Y happens. Then there is the Council's rule that you can't do X. If you do X, we kill you. X being a "violation" of the natural law. What matters for the Council's enforcement of the natural law is their interpretation of it. Their interpretation of the law and what the law is aren't one to one.
What I'm getting from Griff and Sibelis is that black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption, but is the fertile ground suited for the growth of Outsider corruption.
The councils laws are a human construct and while breaking them usually leads to black magic corruption I see them as separate things.
How you choose to use your magic is a very important choice that shapes you. In that sense every bad choice taints you and some of those taints are so black that it shows as black magic corruption. Others might be a few grey patches.
Outsiders are something different entirely.
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The councils laws are a human construct.
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How you choose to use your magic is a very important choice that shapes you.
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Outsiders are something different entirely.
I think the laws are an interpretation of the fundamental laws of the universe. They're a mostly, but not entirely, correct one. Like Newtonian Physics.
Black magic isn't necessarily an act of will. One can choose a magical act that isn't violent that results in death. That results in black magic taint according to JB. This isn't how I'd set up a magical system, but I'm not JB. It's more of a cause and effect thing.
I'm not sure Outsiders and black magic are entirely separate. Some black magic is very different than other black magic. Early in the books, black magic is just a perversion of the forces of creation. As we advance, Harry comes to the conclusion that there is another energy source in BR when he's dealing with the entropy curse fueled by HWWBehind.
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Explaining Black magic is not even the purpose of these laws. It is all about preventing the worst excesses of the use of magic by mortals. There are probably plenty ways to darken your spirit without breaking the laws.
And there is magic that in itself is dark. You can use it without breaking the councils laws but it will still taint you.
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Explaining Black magic is not even the purpose of these laws. It is all about preventing the worst excesses of the use of magic by mortals. There are probably plenty ways to darken your spirit without breaking the laws.
And there is magic that in itself is dark. You can use it without breaking the councils laws but it will still taint you.
I think of Black Magic is more of a drug addiction. It isn't always the easiest way to a goal, but it often is, so one is tempted to use it again. It effects the perception of the one who practices it, the adept who uses it begins to see himself or herself differently, power and superiority over others.. Until one ends up like the Koren Kid or worse, Kemmler.
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Explaining Black magic is not even the purpose of these laws.
It's about preventing black magic, not explaining it.
It is all about preventing the worst excesses of the use of magic by mortals.
It doesn't care about preventing egregious use of grey magic, as Margaret called it. Only black magic. Is the Council concerned with individual wizards exercising too much power? Sure. That's why the Council is structured the way it is. That's why it frowns on wizards becoming involved with mortal politics. (I'm not sure the extent of its frowning because we only see the frowning in the Paranet Papers).
There are probably plenty ways to darken your spirit without breaking the laws.
We've been told by Morgan and the Merlin that warlocks are beyond rehabilitation. That they always violate the laws again. This isn't just a bad habit or even at the level of a drug addiction. There are plenty of people who break those. Harry's the only example of someone who hasn't gone warlock. There is an argument that he has, and his story isn't over yet. (All the maybe mortals he's killed).
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Well, we know warlocks are replaced by something inhuman, via Woj. Something the wizard more or less birthed in their minds eye. Something that possibly did not exist before. Or something that existed in non existence like an outsider? If that is the case then Harry as Starborn would be uniquely placed to have the ability to break the warlock cycle in the way others cannot.
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It's about preventing black magic, not explaining it.
Natural laws are about describing how things work. Human laws are about preventing certain behaviors. They are different things.
It doesn't care about preventing egregious use of grey magic, as Margaret called it. Only black magic. Is the Council concerned with individual wizards exercising too much power? Sure. That's why the Council is structured the way it is. That's why it frowns on wizards becoming involved with mortal politics. (I'm not sure the extent of its frowning because we only see the frowning in the Paranet Papers).
We've been told by Morgan and the Merlin that warlocks are beyond rehabilitation. That they always violate the laws again. This isn't just a bad habit or even at the level of a drug addiction. There are plenty of people who break those. Harry's the only example of someone who hasn't gone warlock. There is an argument that he has, and his story isn't over yet. (All the maybe mortals he's killed).
That is their experience but they don’t consider free will. The knights of the cross have a totally different approach in this.
And we don’t have that many examples of people trying to rehabilitate warlocks before they get too dangerous, only two, so I do not think we have conclusive evidence.
The white council’s approach of kill first ask questions later will push warlocks further on their path.
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And we don’t have that many examples of people trying to rehabilitate warlocks before they get too dangerous, only two, so I do not think we have conclusive evidence.
The white council’s approach of kill first ask questions later will push warlocks further on their path.
Yeah, if the Merlin is to be believe the problem is they do not have enough wizards willing to go under the Doom with a troubled apprentice. Nor do they have enough wizards to spot the kids with talent before they get into trouble with it. The flip side of that is very few citizens believe in wizards or recognize talent with it awakens in their kids. And even if they do on both counts today most wizards don't want to take the time to teach.. So lots of kids gone bad lose their heads.
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Natural laws are about describing how things work. Human laws are about preventing certain behaviors. They are different things.
Yes. But humans react to natural consequences by making laws banning the practice or practices that result in those natural consequences.
That is their experience but they don’t consider free will. The knights of the cross have a totally different approach in this.
True. We also know from Uriel that the exercise of free will is exceedingly rare.
And we don’t have that many examples of people trying to rehabilitate warlocks before they get too dangerous, only two, so I do not think we have conclusive evidence.
We don't, but it appears the Council does. I can't remember which book it was in, but I remember a discussion between Harry and another wizard about how the Council has tried to rehabilitate warlocks, and it never works. There was a line about how some appear to be on the path to recovery, but they always relapse eventually. I doubt they're making it all up.
Yeah, if the Merlin is to be believe the problem is they do not have enough wizards willing to go under the Doom with a troubled apprentice.
I don't think that's the problem from the Merlin's perspective. He did say that the Council didn't have the spare resources to allow a regional commander to split his time between mentoring and the war.
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Yes. But humans react to natural consequences by making laws banning the practice or practices that result in those natural consequences.
True. We also know from Uriel that the exercise of free will is exceedingly rare.
We don't, but it appears the Council does. I can't remember which book it was in, but I remember a discussion between Harry and another wizard about how the Council has tried to rehabilitate warlocks, and it never works. There was a line about how some appear to be on the path to recovery, but they always relapse eventually. I doubt they're making it all up.
The council has a strong better safe than sorry mentality so a few cases gone spectacularly wrong could have been enough. I doubt it was often tried, the risks are just too big.
But an individual can be crushed in such a system and doubtless some warlocks could have been saved.
Compare Ebenezer’s attitude towards everything non human. Doubtless based on many experienced but easily generalized because that is a very human attitude. Have a few bad experiences with a easily recognizable group and your attitude is fixed. Something to do with evolution and survival.
I don't think that's the problem from the Merlin's perspective. He did say that the Council didn't have the spare resources to allow a regional commander to split his time between mentoring and the war.
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When I read the scene my first impulse was He got the NAME of the enemy from the enemy's own lips! Since Harry's a starborn that's immune to the influence, maybe he'll be able to use a binding on "Nemesis". Mother Winter/Mother Summer had told him it was important to know the proper names of things, that was the first time we heard the enemy called Nemesis. IIRC
What's known:
A Walker is a powerful Outsider.
They are Outsider Knights.
There are almost certainly three. Mac has strongly implied there are three Walkers.
They are He Who Walks Behind, He Who Walks Before, and He Who Walks Beside.
Nemesis is singular. Nemesis is repeatedly referred to as "it," not they or them.
Names are important and guarded. We often know things not by their names, but by what they are called. For example, Harry has a fairy servant called Lacuna and another called Toot. We don't know either's Name. Hell, I'm called Bad Alias. That's certainly not my name.
So, HWWBeside is an Outsider Knight, which are known as Walkers, called Nemesis.
What I think on possession/infection by HWWBeside: They're the same thing. Subtle manipulation to out and out control are both forms of possession as I understand it from everything I've ever seen on possession.
@Griffyn612: How do you fit Harry's black magic corruption into your theory of black magic being an opening to infection? Was his corruption simply an opening that couldn't be used? I once thought that all black magic corruption could be nemfection, but I'm not sure that's possible anymore.
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Titania told him the name.
Titania didn’t turn to face me. Her voice was weary. “My heart tells me that all things end.” She paused. “But this thing I will tell a Winter Knight who believes in freedom: You must learn greater discretion. The power you have come to know and fear has a name. One should know the proper names of things.” She turned and walked toward me. My body told me to run like hell, but I told it to shut up, that my legs were shaking too hard anyway. Titania leaned up onto her toes and whispered, very close to my ear. “Nemesis,” she breathed. “Speak it carefully—or it may hear you.” I blinked. “It . . . it what?”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 315). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
One way you could take this is that Nemesis lives in someones doubt. It's in the name, which is kinda cheesy, He Who Walks Beside. In Cold Days during his discussion with Mother Summer Harry calls him a sapper. Trying to tunnel in to our reality. Think of it as sapping the will of those he attaches to. Lea says in Changes that she cannot think of him lest she become vulnerable again. This plays to that. Standing beside them whispering into their ear, when he finds them. But they may have to call them in some fashion that Jim has yet to reveal or be touched by some token.
It's interesting that the Whites refer to their "demon". It is also interesting that Papa Raith seems not to exist spiritually. In a sense like the Outsiders. It makes one think that maybe the demons of the Whites are another form of the Outsiders, possibly scions of the original. It would make Papa Raith the progenitor.
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doubtless some warlocks could have been saved.
Depending on your definition of some, I have doubts.
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Depending on your definition of some, I have doubts.
We don't, but it appears the Council does. I can't remember which book it was in, but I remember a discussion between Harry and another wizard about how the Council has tried to rehabilitate warlocks, and it never works. There was a line about how some appear to be on the path to recovery, but they always relapse eventually. I doubt they're making it all up.
That was Proven Guilty, and yes, depending on how far gone the young warlock is, they have been rehabilitated. However it is increasingly difficult to get a wizard willing to risk his or her neck under the Doom to attempt it. Of late, only Eb and Harry had been willing to do that that we know of. And there is the real danger of failure, which can be very costly.
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When I read the scene my first impulse was He got the NAME of the enemy from the enemy's own lips! Since Harry's a starborn that's immune to the influence, maybe he'll be able to use a binding on "Nemesis". Mother Winter/Mother Summer had told him it was important to know the proper names of things, that was the first time we heard the enemy called Nemesis. IIRC
Yes, I thought the same. I even thought he could use it to fuel a spell. I hope knowing its name by its own lips will help him in the future. Perhaps to summon it himself.
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Yes, I thought the same. I even thought he could use it to fuel a spell. I hope knowing its name by its own lips will help him in the future. Perhaps to summon it himself.
That would surely break a law somewhere ;D
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That would surely break a law somewhere ;D
technically him asking was breaking the law. "Do not seek knowledge beyond the outer gates"
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Well, it won't be the worst that Harry did :)
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technically him asking was breaking the law. "Do not seek knowledge beyond the outer gates"
Which probably does not taint him because of star born. But it is still breaking the law.
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If there's a law of magic for it, there's probably going to be a book where harry breaks it (or bends it into unrecognizable).
There's a WOJ out there somewhere that says something along the lines that Harry's going to break them all eventually. Sue was my favorite crime so far!
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If there's a law of magic for it, there's probably going to be a book where harry breaks it (or bends it into unrecognizable).
There's a WOJ out there somewhere that says something along the lines that Harry's going to break them all eventually. Sue was my favorite crime so far!
I remember hearing that too, that before the end Harry will have broken every law of magic. Which means at some point he will time travel.
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I remember hearing that too, that before the end Harry will have broken every law of magic. Which means at some point he will time travel.
But I do not know if it was serious or a joke. Sue was not breaking the laws. We know because he survived it and even became a warden.
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But I do not know if it was serious or a joke. Sue was not breaking the laws. We know because he survived it and even became a warden.
Wasn't he a Warden when he did it? I cannot remember the exact timing.
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Wasn't he a Warden when he did it? I cannot remember the exact timing.
He got the cloak in the same book just before the final fight.
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But I do not know if it was serious or a joke. Sue was not breaking the laws. We know because he survived it and even became a warden.
They implied that it was borderline. I think they chose to look the other way. Off on a technicality sort of. If they had wanted to they could have gone after him for it. Like they did at the end of BG with the formors.
I never heard exactly what Jim said about the Harry breaking the laws, so yeah, could have been a joke. But if the wasn't, I would think Sue would count in his book because it was borderline.
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I agree with you Telynn.
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Jim's said it several times. I don't know how literal he's being. I'm not sure if the book is supposed to be about Harry breaking the law or just approaching it. I also think he had said Dead Beat was the necromancy book, but, as discussed above, Harry didn't violate that law.
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I really feel like him 'breaking' the laws is him doing what others have done and finding the grey areas. His mother, Mab in her human past? Sue was a grey area, Morgan agreed it was necessary that night, but if Harry had become a full time animal necromancer I don't think it would have sat well with the council.. the grey areas imo are things that don't truly violate free will. Sue didn't have free will. When the fae(or later the rag lady) make people see things they still choose how they react. A choice is still made, even if it's a very matrixy subliminal choice. I could probably find ways to violate all the laws that way. The self defense claus on not killing for instance, they chose to attack you. Time travel Bob directly explained, you can't effect choice, but you can change circumstances to effect what choices are available. The only off one is seeking knowledge beyond the outer gates, but I blame lack of exact knowledge on details. We don't know enough to say. Though in guessing MM actually deals with this one. Other realities should qualify..
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My personal guess is that she was exposed to infection on that Fomor raid we heard about in Even Hand. Maybe it was before that, but the text in Cold Days suggests otherwise, at least to me.
My guess is someone used something on her, like the Athame or hex belt, which (like a usb connected directly to a machine) installed Beside's protocols directly, without consent.
This is dragging up an older topic but I wanted to share my thoughts.
I suspect Justine was infected around the time of White Night (likely after but possibly before). It was right around the time she was clearly becoming useful to Lara and Nemesis could have learned of her through Vittorio either during or before the Deeps. The Justine we saw there was much more functional than the one we'd seen before (though meds were her given reason) but the Justine we saw from every other interaction was much more functional than that. Its likely she accepted Nemisis willingly (without it revealing what it really was) under the promise that it could reunite her with Thomas. (Which it did...) After that she was likely manipulating things from the background. Like pitting Marcone vs Formor in Even Hand.
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This is dragging up an older topic but I wanted to share my thoughts.
I suspect Justine was infected around the time of White Night (likely after but possibly before). It was right around the time she was clearly becoming useful to Lara and Nemesis could have learned of her through Vittorio either during or before the Deeps. The Justine we saw there was much more functional than the one we'd seen before (though meds were her given reason) but the Justine we saw from every other interaction was much more functional than that. Its likely she accepted Nemisis willingly (without it revealing what it really was) under the promise that it could reunite her with Thomas. (Which it did...) After that she was likely manipulating things from the background. Like pitting Marcone vs Formor in Even Hand.
I think it depends on the nature of possession by Beside, which we don't know for sure. I could see it being a quick forced possession in the Even Hand adventure, or I could see it being a slow seduction possession starting around White Night.
But the comment by Maeve in Cold Days just seems damning to the latter. If Justine was already possessed and in Beside's control, there'd be no need for Maeve to call out that Justine was of interest to her, being so close to Lara.
Even if Justine was being slowly corrupted at that point, it seems unlikely that Maeve would spell out the reason that she was already being corrupted. It seems much more likely to me that Maeve and Beside had genuine interest in getting to Justine, and that slipped out when Maeve thought her win was assured.
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This is dragging up an older topic but I wanted to share my thoughts.
I suspect Justine was infected around the time of White Night (likely after but possibly before). It was right around the time she was clearly becoming useful to Lara and Nemesis could have learned of her through Vittorio either during or before the Deeps. The Justine we saw there was much more functional than the one we'd seen before (though meds were her given reason) but the Justine we saw from every other interaction was much more functional than that. Its likely she accepted Nemisis willingly (without it revealing what it really was) under the promise that it could reunite her with Thomas. (Which it did...) After that she was likely manipulating things from the background. Like pitting Marcone vs Formor in Even Hand.
My theory is she became infected as far back as Blood Rites.
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I really feel like him 'breaking' the laws is him doing what others have done and finding the grey areas.
That's kind of where I'm at. It might also just be a book centered around someone else violating the law. I wonder what the "Thou Shalt Not Transform Others" book will look like.
My theory is she became infected as far back as Blood Rites.
Yeah. I don't think it could have been any further back than that unless Behind was lying. For theorizing, I assume what we see on page is true unless we have good reason to think otherwise.
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Yeah. I don't think it could have been any further back than that unless Behind was lying. For theorizing, I assume what we see on page is true unless we have good reason to think otherwise.
It was from Blood Rites on that Justine's relationship with the Raiths in general began to change, she began to work closer and closer to Lara. Justine also went through a bit of a transformation also that was mainly attributed to her near death from feeding by the injured Thomas. But what if it wasn't from the feeding?
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My theory is she became infected as far back as Blood Rites.
What do you think Maeve meant when she said this in Cold Days?
Justine made a quiet sound and went to Mac’s side.
Maeve’s eyes fastened on her. “And the vampire’s crumpet. Luscious little thing, aren’t you? And so close to Lady Raith. You and I are going to have a long talk after this, darling. I just know you’re going to start to see things my way.”
It sounds to me like Justine is not yet infected, but Maeve plans to change that.
The only compromise I can think of is that Justine was infected with a shadow of Beside, similar to the shadow of Lasciel that worked to get Harry to take her in. But like Harry, Justine was resisting.
But if that's the case, I'd still want to know who infected her earlier.
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sounds to me like Justine is not yet infected, but Maeve plans to change that.
The only compromise I can think of is that Justine was infected with a shadow of Beside, similar to the shadow of Lasciel that worked to get Harry to take her in. But like Harry, Justine was resisting.
But if that's the case, I'd still want to know who infected her earlier.
Or it has to be triggered by an event perhaps? Because if Justine wasn't infected before Cold Days it had to have happened at some point since.
In Blood Rites it could have happened. HWWBh emerges from Madge's body.
"I am returned , mortal man,"the demon said through Madge's dead lips." And I remember thee. Thou and I, we have unfinished business between us."
The thing is, it is something Harry remembers, but he doesn't say anything to HWWBh, nothing happens after that. Madge's body deflates, and poof, the Outsider is gone? How odd is that there is no direct interaction between an Outsider and Harry? Not one wise ass remark on Harry's part. It is also a very weak Justine who directed Harry and company to go and save Thomas. Was that what she was doing? Or was her real motive to get Harry killed trying to save Thomas? Long and the short of it not totally out of the question that she was infected, heck it might be the reason she survived the heavy feeding from the badly injured Thomas.
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Or it has to be triggered by an event perhaps? Because if Justine wasn't infected before Cold Days it had to have happened at some point since.
In Blood Rites it could have happened. HWWBh emerges from Madge's body.
The thing is, it is something Harry remembers, but he doesn't say anything to HWWBh, nothing happens after that. Madge's body deflates, and poof, the Outsider is gone? How odd is that there is no direct interaction between an Outsider and Harry? Not one wise ass remark on Harry's part. It is also a very weak Justine who directed Harry and company to go and save Thomas. Was that what she was doing? Or was her real motive to get Harry killed trying to save Thomas? Long and the short of it not totally out of the question that she was infected, heck it might be the reason she survived the heavy feeding from the badly injured Thomas.
I'd still rather we have an event where she was at least exposed to Beside.
For now, I'd settle for something like this.
Stages of Beside's Influence
- Contraction - A victim is exposed to Outside power, staining them.
- Impulse - The stain grows, subtly changing their nature without direct involvement from Beside or anyone else.
- Influence - Beside can begin to whisper to them, as a voice inside their head, more directly affecting their decision making.
- Cooperation - The victim becomes aware of Beside's presence, and agrees to work with him for mutual gain.
- Domination - The victim has lost control to Beside, to the point that he can possess them and control their every action.
That would be the natural order of operations for mortals, but an object like the Athame can expedite the infection to the point of near-immediate domination.
And we could see different levels of 'infection' in different victims. (Most of these are hypothetical)
- Sells - Impulse. His nature changed, but Beside never possessed him.
- Denton - Impulse. The belt changed his nature, but Beside never got involved.
- Kravos - Influence. Guy might very well have heard voices that progressed things along.
- Aurora - Influence. Beside whispered to her, influencing her ideas and plans, but without her awareness.
- Book 5? Mavra?
- Book 6? Lord Raith?
- Cowl - Influence. Maybe he's hearing voices, or maybe he's already on to cooperation.
- Lea - Domination. Thanks to the Athame, her progression was swift, but then suppressed by Mab.
- Vitto - Cooperation. He made deals for power to the point he was 'possessed' (most likely hosted) an Outsider. (Per weak WoJ, possibly Before)
- Namshiel's host - Cooperation. Possibly against the will of the Fallen.
- Book 11? Madeline? Skinwalker?
- Arianna - Cooperation? Trying to usurp her father?
- Book 13?
- Maeve - Cooperation. She was never controlled by Beside, but after becoming aware, she became a
- Cat Sith - Domination. Maeve cut corners and quickly advanced things, due to her authority over Sith and his lack of free will.
willing conspirator.[/li]
[li] Book 15?[/li]
[li] Justine - Domination by then, but when did it begin?[/li]
[/list]
Potential sources for Justine's infection.
- Grave Peril - Mavra, Bianca, or the Nightmare infected her after the party. It started slow and ramped up over the years.
- Turn Coat - Skinwalker infected her with his belly swipe attack while attacking Raith manor. By Cold Days she knew she was infected but not cooperating, a la Harry and Lash. Maeve wanted to hurry things along at the end of the book.
- Even Hand - Justine was exposed to something on the mission to the Fomor territory just before the short story events, and Beside was already beginning to control.
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Idk, I think Aurora knew. She said what she was doing was the price set of something to that effect. Always made me think she made a deal with someone, in this case Nemesis.
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Idk, I think Aurora knew. She said what she was doing was the price set of something to that effect. Always made me think she made a deal with someone, in this case Nemesis.
She was confused at the end. She had a destructive idea tailored for her.
I think she was influenced and her mind was changed with something like mind magic but different. She had no idea. She was clueless.
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She was confused at the end. She had a destructive idea tailored for her.
I think she was influenced and her mind was changed with something like mind magic but different. She had no idea. She was clueless.
Yes, I think Aurora was a bit of an innocent not unlike Lily. Oh more intelligent perhaps and she knew her job because her mother was the Summer Queen, but there was a sweetness so yes, she was totally confused by what was happening to her.
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She was confused at the end. She had a destructive idea tailored for her.
I think she was influenced and her mind was changed with something like mind magic but different. She had no idea. She was clueless.
being confused is one thing, talking about it wasn't your price is something else. She knew exactly what she was doing as far as how to screw the fae courts up too.
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being confused is one thing, talking about it wasn't your price is something else. She knew exactly what she was doing as far as how to screw the fae courts up too.
Or was that Nemesis talking or doing? Consider the conversation Harry had with Justine/Nemesis/HWWBs, until Harry figured it out, except for a gut feeling back when he told her about Thomas that something was a bit off, she seemed just like Justine. It is HWWBs who gloated about setting up her pregnancy, you can say Justine knew, but I doubt she had any control. I think Aurora knew what was happening, but if she was truly infected, I doubt she had any control.
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being confused is one thing, talking about it wasn't your price is something else. She knew exactly what she was doing as far as how to screw the fae courts up too.
She surely knew how to mess up things but that does not mean she knew she was doing it for Nemesis. Nemesis planted the idea in her head and changed her nature so she would do it but only just enough. She had no idea.
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being confused is one thing, talking about it wasn't your price is something else. She knew exactly what she was doing as far as how to screw the fae courts up too.
I think your interpretation of 'price' is too literal. It's not that it's a price she's paying for some service or something. It's the price/cost to the world for what she's going to do. She thinks, probably thanks to Beside's influence, that the Courts must fall, and the chaos that will occur will be the price that has to be paid to bring peace.
But that's just my interpretation.
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She surely knew how to mess up things but that does not mean she knew she was doing it for Nemesis. Nemesis planted the idea in her head and changed her nature so she would do it but only just enough. She had no idea.
Agreed, or she was a spectator in her own head and body, she knew what was going on, but all she could do is watch.
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Agreed, or she was a spectator in her own head and body, she knew what was going on, but all she could do is watch.
I never got that feeling. From what we could tell she was emotionally disturbed but her mental faculty was not compromised.
I think your interpretation of 'price' is too literal. It's not that it's a price she's paying for some service or something.
idk, most of the major fae players seem to have made a bargain that had Nemesis attached.(Sith gets left out as a non standard example, we don't know what they did to him to coerce him into being a puppet) Lea accepted the knife, Maeve straight up accepted Nemesis for the fringe benefits. Me thinks part of the fae having some dissolution of soul/real world existence gives them the basic choice to resist Nemesis, so they have to on some level accept it.
More to the point though, she says specifically not MY price, meaning someone else set the price. It's wasn't just THE price.
(Used to have a theory Nemesis was analogous to Ursula from The Little Mermaid lol. Making deals for souls and then trading them to others who shouldnt have them. With the advent of Ethniu Im not sure I was entirely wrong so much as incomplete in that thinking, after all, Ethniu also matched exactly how I thought Nemesis felt about humans and why.)
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I never got that feeling. From what we could tell she was emotionally disturbed but her mental faculty was not compromised. idk, most of the major fae players seem to have made a bargain that had Nemesis attached.(Sith gets left out as a non standard example, we don't know what they did to him to coerce him into being a puppet) Lea accepted the knife, Maeve straight up accepted Nemesis for the fringe benefits. Me thinks part of the fae having some dissolution of soul/real world existence gives them the basic choice to resist Nemesis, so they have to on some level accept it.
More to the point though, she says specifically not MY price, meaning someone else set the price. It's wasn't just THE price.
(Used to have a theory Nemesis was analogous to Ursula from The Little Mermaid lol. Making deals for souls and then trading them to others who shouldnt have them. With the advent of Ethniu Im not sure I was entirely wrong so much as incomplete in that thinking, after all, Ethniu also matched exactly how I thought Nemesis felt about humans and why.)
We only have a few examples so I don't think we can exclude Cat Sith as atypical that easily.
Harry just assumed the walker jumped him and forced the infection and I see no reason to doubt him. I think an infection can be forced or tricked but resistance is only possible if the host is made aware of it.
Cat sith was made aware of it by Harry and tried to resist and failed. He was simply not strong enough but forced Nemesis to take direct control. But Nemesis made quite clear that it Maeve did notpreferred unaware hidden assets. A possessed asset is far easier to discover.
Lea became aware and resisted successfully with Mab's help. Maeve did not tried to resist but most strong characters would try to resist if made aware. Aurora never knew, that is how Nemesis prefers to operate.
It gives the maximum effect with the minimum effort.
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I think it takes advantage of traits that the victim already has. Just like some people are more suseptable to some diseases, so victims are to Nemesis. Maeve is the prime example of that, she had a whole list of dissatisfactions with her lot in life, once in contact with the Knife, she was an easy target. Lea also to a lessor degree, if one reads carefully her actions and what she says before Grave Peril, there is a definite desire for power, which also made her an easy target.
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Potential sources for Justine's infection.
It could have been at some point shortly before or during WN from Vittorio Malvora.
Consider the conversation Harry had with Justine/Nemesis/HWWBs, until Harry figured it out, except for a gut feeling back when he told her about Thomas that something was a bit off, she seemed just like Justine.
That could be because Harry has spent most of his time with Justine after she became infected. It might be hard for him to spot her acting out of character.
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That could be because Harry has spent most of his time with Justine after she became infected. It might be hard for him to spot her acting out of character.
He did find something maybe not out of character for her but what he felt "off" when he told her the news about Thomas. However with everything else going at a rapid pace at that point he couldn't connect the dots.
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My comment was more about how he didn't find anything else off. The real question would be if Thomas noticed anything but ignored it because he was just happy to have her alive.
Nemesis' comments at the end of BG do suggest that the precautions Justine and Thomas took may have been subverted by Justine.
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My comment was more about how he didn't find anything else off. The real question would be if Thomas noticed anything but ignored it because he was just happy to have her alive.
Nemesis' comments at the end of BG do suggest that the precautions Justine and Thomas took may have been subverted by Justine.
Oh I think Thomas was blackmailed into it by Nemesis/HWWBs/Justine.. He was fully aware and felt this was the only way to save Justine. Remember he mumbled to himself on the beach when he was telling him about Justine?
"Probably. I have a solution in mind," he said.
Nemesis' comments at the end of BG do suggest that the precautions Justine and Thomas took may have been subverted by Justine.
They were subverted, but can you hold Justine responsible? She was no longer Justine at that point.
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Oh I think Thomas was blackmailed into it by Nemesis/HWWBs/Justine.. He was fully aware and felt this was the only way to save Justine. Remember he mumbled to himself on the beach when he was telling him about Justine?
They were subverted, but can you hold Justine responsible? She was no longer Justine at that point.
We do not know at which point she was Justine, She was influenced/infected Justine, She was possessed Justine.
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We do not know at which point she was Justine, She was influenced/infected Justine, She was possessed Justine.
When she got pregnant, she wasn't just Justine, HWWBs gloated about that. Hey, Thomas may have know she wasn't herself, even possessed, but because he loves her, he couldn't risk her death. He may have thought if he got by with it, Justine saved, that he could then deal with HWWBs.
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When she got pregnant, she wasn't just Justine, HWWBs gloated about that. Hey, Thomas may have know she wasn't herself, even possessed, but because he loves her, he couldn't risk her death. He may have thought if he got by with it, Justine saved, that he could then deal with HWWBs.
Not necessarily. Taking possession increases the chance of discovery and influencing the host is usually enough to get what it wants. It might even be able totale and let go at will.
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The obvious danger here is the baby has no identity of its own yet but is under the influence of Nemesis because they are sharing a bio electric field. Kinda like Ivy being born the archive. If that thing latches onto the baby then it will be born knowing nothing besides being constantly talked to and molded by Nemesis..
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Yes, but we know uncle Harry will save the day. Perhaps even with the Baron's help. We have been hearing about Marcone's soft spot for kids since forever. So, the baby will be all right.
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Yes, but we know uncle Harry will save the day. Perhaps even with the Baron's help. We have been hearing about Marcone's soft spot for kids since forever. So, the baby will be all right.
Only to reveal later baby is Outsider monster, and it will eat Will Borden
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Only to reveal later baby is Outsider monster, and it will eat Will Borden
Only with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti.... ::)
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Oh I think Thomas was blackmailed into it by Nemesis/HWWBs/Justine.
But when did Thomas become aware? Did he ever think something was off before he was blackmailed?
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But when did Thomas become aware? Did he ever think something was off before he was blackmailed?
When he discovered she was with child, which scared the hell out of him. He may have even tried to talk her into aborting the child.. She refuses and tells him there is one way that she and the child could remain safe... Wait for it.... "All you have to do is assassinate the Atari king of the svartalves, and me and the child will be protected.." That's when he knew she had him by the short hairs. ::)
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When he discovered she was with child, which scared the hell out of him. He may have even tried to talk her into aborting the child.. She refuses and tells him there is one way that she and the child could remain safe... Wait for it.... "All you have to do is assassinate the Atari king of the svartalves, and me and the child will be protected.." That's when he knew she had him by the short hairs. ::)
I dislike this story part already and you make it even worse. Please stahp. :(
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I dislike this story part already and you make it even worse. Please stahp. :(
Sorry about that.... But there is ample evidence that something like that did happen..
Peace Talks Thomas says in chapter one
He nodded. "Probably, I have a solution in mind," he said. "I'll work on it. Good enough?"
So either he was blackmailed by HWWBs or made a deal to save Justine and the kid.
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So either he was blackmailed by HWWBs or made a deal to save Justine and the kid.
I could buy it if Thomas made deal with Nemesis and infected Justine only afterwards as a way to save them. That would be sort of cool.