ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Pbartender on August 21, 2011, 03:59:13 PM
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In my previous thread about Ghostbusters Crossover Madness (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28378.0.html), there was a little speculation starting on how the Ghostbusters and their "technology" would fit into the Dresdenverse and the game in general. I have have an idea about it, but am still not entirely familiar with the specific rules for magic in the DFRPG. I'm aiming for as few chnages to the rules as possible, and for using as many existing rules (or something similar to them) as possible.
So, let me know what you guys think...
The Theory: Science, in it's way, is a form of magic that makes extraordinary things happen. But whereas magic gains power from the conviction, faith and belief of a single creature, science gains power from the collective conviction, faith and belief of the entire population of the planet. In other words, the more people that believe in a particular scientific theory, the more power it gains and the more "real" it becomes. By way of example... Until Copernicus convinced the world otherwise, the Sun DID travel around the Earth.
Also, since science likes to impose order and verisimilitude upon the rules of the universe, it takes equal strength from the disbelief of anything that tends to contradict established rules without good reason (especially supernatural creatures!).
The Rules: My idea is to use "Super Science!" as a sort of sponsored magic... Since Super Science tends to employ relatively new and unproven scientific theories to bend existing Laws of Science, the gadgets and effects require, just like magic, a hefty dose of Conviction and Discipline to keep them working. In other words, the character would be using the same rules as wizards to create a magic-like effect, but would be doing so using the trappings of super-scientific technologies, rather than using mystical powers and incantations.
Since this "pseudo-magic" relies on technology, it cannot be compelled for the purposes of involuntary hexing. Conversely, however, effects and items created using Science! can be affected by hexing* (intentional or not).
Also, while Science! is not technically magic and technically not bound by the Laws of Magic, the White Council may still take notice of a Scientist! who blatantly and flagrantly violates those Laws on a regular basis.
*Though, I'm still considering how I want that to work.
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That could work.
Might be too versatile, though. And the gadgets might not be important enough.
I'd probably go with one of
Sponsored Magic + a +1 refresh custom power forcing greater reliance on foci
Sponsored Magic and a whole pile of compels
Ritual (Crafting).
PS: Have you considered using different skills than the normal magic ones for this?
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Work it like a magic item with weapon 1 to 3 or 4 damage (they're adjustable) and however many uses you think it should have before recharging. Discipline or Guns to aim. Any miss and the damage is treated as fallout. Item itself has a constant aspect of Look at All That Breakable Stuff that gives a -1 to hit.
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I'm thinking like Sanctaphrax here, and I'm sure Scholarship should be one of the skills involved. It could make sense to use it for either power or control, and I can't think of a compelling argument for one over the other.
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If you don't mind me asking, The Mighty Buzzard, what would be the point of that? A gun is better in every way.
Also, I don't think aspects work like that.
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If you don't mind me asking, The Mighty Buzzard, what would be the point of that? A gun is better in every way.
My bad. I was specing out proton packs. I'm not sure why; I've slept since then.
Also, I don't think aspects work like that.
I meant maneuver and plead having less than enough caffeine in my system.
Let's try this again now that I have my head screwed on straight. In the DV, on the mortal plane, science just works. It has nothing to do with belief. Taking it to the Nevernever is an entirely different story but in Cleavland, if it wasn't shoddily built, anything that works will work for anyone who knows how to use it.
I'm with Sanctaphrax and duck on Scholarship for creating new tech or using unfamiliar tech. Probably a hefty dose of Resources and time too for creation. But once it works, it's just ordinary tech.
Creating new tech effects at evocation speed would be a heck of a stretch too. Even sci-fi shows do their tech wizardry in thaumaturgic time.
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Personally I'd use some Mad Science stuff from Spirit of the Century, but yours is a great idea IMHO.
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i would go with enchanted items based off of Scholarship and with Factory Parts (focus items) limited by Resources. With perhaps a mass production stunt that allows you replace broken or stone items outside of milestones. You could if you were really into flavour and modding allow players to gain even more power from there items by allowing them to increase the power of their items at the cost of having serious negative aspects like 'highly unstable core'.
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Let's try this again now that I have my head screwed on straight. In the DV, on the mortal plane, science just works. It has nothing to do with belief. Taking it to the Nevernever is an entirely different story but in Cleavland, if it wasn't shoddily built, anything that works will work for anyone who knows how to use it.
Right, but that's regular science that everyone in the world is familiar with... I'm talking about Super Science! Devices and gadgets that only belong in Science Fiction (at least for now) in the same way that the Dresdenverse contains creatures and monsters that only belong in Fantasy Fiction.
Remember Clarke's Third Law... "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." And Niven's Corollary... "Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."
That's the type of stuff I'm trying to work with.
I'm with Sanctaphrax and duck on Scholarship for creating new tech or using unfamiliar tech. Probably a hefty dose of Resources and time too for creation. But once it works, it's just ordinary tech.
Creating new tech effects at evocation speed would be a heck of a stretch too. Even sci-fi shows do their tech wizardry in thaumaturgic time.
Think a little more "narrativist" and a little less "simulationist" about it... Look at it in the same vein as SotC's Universal Gadget stunt. That is, the Super-Scientist has prepared a selection of super-science gadgets that emulate certain evocation effects. He brought a few of them along with him, but which ones he brought aren't defined, until the player actually decides which effect the character is producing.
Perhaps a cryogenicly specialized Super-Science might have a freeze ray for blasting, a cryo-grenade for hitting multiple enemies, a blizzard-vortex generator for making a defensive shield... Whatever crazy psuedo-scientific explanation you can find.
Let me think on it a bit more. I think I might end up with a Sponsored Magic variant with caveats.
Personally I'd use some Mad Science stuff from Spirit of the Century, but yours is a great idea IMHO.
That's my back-up. ;)
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Think a little more "narrativist" and a little less "simulationist" about it... Look at it in the same vein as SotC's Universal Gadget stunt. That is, the Super-Scientist has prepared a selection of super-science gadgets that emulate certain evocation effects. He brought a few of them along with him, but which ones he brought aren't defined, until the player actually decides which effect the character is producing.
Ahhhhh, gotcha. Just replace Conviction with Scholarship then and go the Sponsored Magic route you were already thinking.
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Ahhhhh, gotcha. Just replace Conviction with Scholarship then and go the Sponsored Magic route you were already thinking.
Yeah, imagine Dr. Freeze as the super-scientific version of a cryomancer... Adjusting the settings on his freeze-ray gun and his vortex blizzard generator, and tossing around cryo-grenades.
Let's see if I come up with a first draft...
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SUPER-SCIENCE!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; any sufficiently defined magic is indistinguishable from technology. You're able to invent and build fantastic devices that are only dreamed about in science-fiction to create effects that blur the line between science and magic. Beware, for the cold logic of Science can be used to justify any action... the same inspirations that created radiotherapy for curing cancer, first created nuclear bombs.
Cost: 4 refresh for the package, plus you must have either the Scientist or Jury-Rigger mortal stunt. You cannot take the package if you already have Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Channeling or Ritual. You may take Evocation, Thaumaturgy or both after choosing the package; they follow all the rules of Super-Science!, the refresh cost for each is reduced by one, and you gain no additional item slots.
Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288). Super-Science! is not magic in of itself, and so is not subject to compels that induce accidental hexing. Conversely, the engineering methods and theories required to create Super-Science! are highly improbable and unbelievable, requiring a certain amount of scientific faith and making Super-Science! devices particularly resistant to magical hexing. Super-Science! devices are immune to accidental hexing and [gain a bonus against intentional hexing that I haven't determined yet]. Furthermore, Craftsmanship replaces Conviction for the purposes creating effects, and Scholarship replaces Discipline. Super-Science! evocation effects always require a focus item, and cannot be created without one. [I'm also considering a benefit to focus items or enchanted items, or Channeling (craft), but I'm not sure what I want it to be, yet.]
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Looks decent. A few questions and comments:
-The hexing resistance could easily be modelled by giving Super-Science effects a high rating on the hexing table. Immunity to accidental hexing isn't really necessary.
-The stunt and power restrictions seem clumsy to me. I suggest that you rework them slightly.
-Why do you replace Discipline and Conviction but not Lore?
-Is there an actual sponsor? If so, what is its agenda? If not, can you take debt?
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I feel pretty stupid for not realizing Craftsmanship makes the perfect complement to Scholarship, but IMO they work better reversed:
Scholarship is the engineering of the invention; it's the planning, the theory. It creates, in a way, the potential for the invention and lays down the rules for what it can and cannot do. It is, to me, "spell power".
Craftsmanship is that theory put into practice. Your skill with tools and in the working of materials, the actuality of the invention seems more analogous to "spell control". It is what the invention actually does when used, rather than simply what you would like it to do.
I also don't like the stunt prerequisite. It's... weird. Why don't you just say it costs 5 refresh if that's what you want it to cost, because in effect that's what you're saying.
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The hexing resistance could easily be modelled by giving Super-Science effects a high rating on the hexing table.
I was thinking of the same thing... I just wasn't sure whether I wanted to make a flat rating, or have it correspond to the creator's skill, or the user's skill.
Immunity to accidental hexing isn't really necessary.
With a high resistance to hexing, you're right as far as other people hexing your Super-Science! gadgets. But I think I'd like to keep the inability to compel the Super-Scientist! into accidental hexing. It'd be the primary benefit.
The stunt and power restrictions seem clumsy to me. I suggest that you rework them slightly.
Yeah, I know... I didn't have a better way of saying it, and now that I look at it again am not entirely certain it's necessary.
Why do you replace Discipline and Conviction but not Lore?
Because I'm new to these spellcasting rules, and didn't think about it. :P ;D
Is there an actual sponsor? If so, what is its agenda? If not, can you take debt?
I'm still thinking on these... But the current answers are:
A) I was planning on it... Perhaps simply Science! itself as the semi-aware entity of the collected knowledge of the entire human race.
B) I'm not entirely certain, but if Science! itself could be considered a semi-aware entity, it desires to grow by the continued collective accumulation of knowledge (no matter what subject that knowledge happens to touch upon or its moral value)... Knowledge of any kind is it's sustenance.
C) Yes. Absolutely. That's where all those break-through "Eureka!" moments come from... Knowledge is Power.
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I also don't like the stunt prerequisite. It's... weird. Why don't you just say it costs 5 refresh if that's what you want it to cost, because in effect that's what you're saying.
Because the cost wasn't the sticking point... I was trying to emulate some minimum training in science or invention as a requirement. Kemmlerian Necromancy doesn't seem so different in its requirements.
Maybe there's a better way to do it. ???
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Oh, of course you wouldn't accidentally hex with this. In fact, some would argue that all sponsored magic enjoys that benefit. I meant that the immunity to the accidental hexing of others isn't necessary.
Maybe the devices (foci and enchanted items, I assume) could have a hexing level equal to the creator's Scholarship + twice the number of enchanted item slots spent on them. So with Superb Scholarship, a normal enchanted item would be difficulty 7 to hex. A +1 focus would be difficulty 9, and a +3 focus would be difficulty 17. This makes hexing very hard, which is the point.
Needing Scholarship and Craftsmanship as casting skills does plenty to force a minimum level of expertise in science. Nobody is likely to take this without each of those skills at Good or better.
The Evocation and Thaumaturgy thing could be expressed as "Super-Science is not compatible with the normal aesthetics of magic. If you have both this power and either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then your Evocation or Thaumaturgy power must comply with the thematic and mechanical restrictions of this power."
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Oh, of course you wouldn't accidentally hex with this. In fact, some would argue that all sponsored magic enjoys that benefit. I meant that the immunity to the accidental hexing of others isn't necessary.
Yep-yep... That makes sense.
Maybe the devices (foci and enchanted items, I assume) could have a hexing level equal to the creator's Scholarship + twice the number of enchanted item slots spent on them. So with Superb Scholarship, a normal enchanted item would be difficulty 7 to hex. A +1 focus would be difficulty 9, and a +3 focus would be difficulty 17. This makes hexing very hard, which isthe point.
That'd work quite nicely.
Needing Scholarship and Craftsmanship as casting skills does plenty to force a minimum level of expertise in science. Nobody is likely to take this without each of those skills at Good or better.
Good point... I'm still thinking about the skills, though. As you said above, we've got three for dealing with magic, really: Conviction, Discipline and Lore. Looking at it again, Scholarship seems the perfect match for Lore -- they're both about knowledge. Then, we've got Conviction to determine the power of an effect and Disciple to determine the accuracy of it. To match that, we've got Craftsmanship, and...?
Here's a odd thought... If this is all about building gadgets, What about Resources and Craftsmanship to replace Conviction and Discipline? Resources determines the quality of parts you can find to build with (the base power of the device), and Craftsmanship determines how well you put those parts together (the base accuracy). Then, finish off with Scholarship replacing Lore.
The Evocation and Thaumaturgy thing could be expressed as "Super-Science is not compatible with the normal aesthetics of magic. If you have both this power and either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then your Evocation or Thaumaturgy power must comply with the thematic and mechanical restrictions of this power."
Perfectly said. Thanks. Exactly what I was aiming for.
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Resources, Craftsmanship, and Scholarship sound like good casting skills to me.
And I think I could justify having any of them replace any of the standard casting skills.
Hm. I think I might use this. I have an NPC organization that would be very suited to its use.
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All right. Take Two. How does this look...
SUPER-SCIENCE!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; any sufficiently defined magic is indistinguishable from technology. You're able to invent and build fantastic devices that are only dreamed about in science-fiction to create effects that blur the line between science and magic. Beware, for the cold logic of Science can be used to justify any action... the same inspirations that created radiotherapy for curing cancer, first created nuclear bombs.
Cost: 4 refresh for the package. Reduce this cost by 1 if you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost by 2 if you have both. However, Super-Science! is not compatible with the normal aesthetics of magic. If you have both this power and either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then your Evocation or Thaumaturgy power must comply with the thematic and mechanical restrictions of this power.
Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288). Super-Science! does not use the usual set of skills for creating super-natural effects; Resources replaces Conviction, Craftsmanship replaces Discipline and Scholarship replaces Lore for the purposes of spellcasting with Super-Science!
Super-Science! is particularly dependent on technology to produce its magic-like effects. Super-Science! evocation effects always require a focus item, and cannot be created without one. Focus items and enchanted item created using Super-Science! are always of a technological nature and are, therefore, capable of being hexed. The engineering methods and theories required to create Super-Science! items are highly improbable and unbelievable, however, making Super-Science! devices particularly resistant to magical hexing. Any focus items or enchanted items you create have a base defense against hexing equal to your Scholarship + twice the number of enchanted item slots the item occupies. Furthermore, when crafting a Focus Item, Enchanted Item or Potion, your Scholarship is considered one higher when determining the strength of the item.
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Looks great.
Except for the last sentence.
It seems to allow a character with Scholarship 5 to create 12-shift items, which would be bad.
I suggest rephrasing it to provide a free crafting power specialization. Or maybe dropping it entirely, I dunno.
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Except for the last sentence.
Hrm... I'll have to think that over...
I was looking at the actual penalties/benefits:
- Conviction/Discipline/Lore to Resources/Craftsmanship/Scholarship skill swap... Effectively a wash.
- Evocations require a focus... Mostly a penalty.
- "Magic" items can be hexed... Another penalty of sorts.
- Boost to hexing defense... Benefit, but only as a mitigation to the prior.
I wanted a concrete benefit for the package... Something connected to creating those Super-Science! "magic" items.
It seems to allow a character with Scholarship 5 to create 12-shift items, which would be bad.
I'm not sure I follow.
I suggest rephrasing it to provide a free crafting power specialization. Or maybe dropping it entirely, I dunno.
So, this would effectively be a freebie Refinement that could only be used as a Specialization for Crafting... That'd actually be a pretty nice benefit for those how take just the Channeling/Ritual version, since normally those types of casters can't get specializations at all, though it severely limits how the specialization gets used.
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You're right, it probably does need a little something extra.
Thing is, one of the most important limits on Crafting is that you can't go past twice your Lore (or in this case Scholarship) in item power. Actually adding to the skill would raise that cap. Which is bad.
So I suggest just making it a free specialization or untyped bonus to the effect rather than the skill.
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Thing is, one of the most important limits on Crafting is that you can't go past twice your Lore (or in this case Scholarship) in item power.
Huh... I thought max item power was equal to Lore, not twice it:
"The one restriction on the bonuses provided [by a focus item] is that they may not total to a number greater than your Lore." YS278
"Nearly any effect within the range of thaumaturgy or evocation is allowed [in an enchanted item] (though evocation tends to be easier because the amount of power involved is usually comparatively small), subject to two limitations: the effect has a strength equal to your Lore, and it may only be used once per game session." YS279
"Regardless, an [enchanted] item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage." YS280 (EDIT: Aha! That's where it came from! I gotcha... Never Mind. I must have missed the "two times" the first read through... But doesn't this contradict the quotes above and below?)
"The effect strength of a potion, like enchanted items, is equal to the wizard’s Lore." YS280
Am I missing something? (Edit: Apparently, I was.)
So I suggest just making it a free specialization or untyped bonus to the effect rather than the skill.
Boosting Scholarship/Lore was a way of adding a blanket bonus to all types of Crafting. I'm not certain how to do an untyped bonus with it getting a little unwieldy.
If nothing else, the free specialization would work just fine, and give the character a little bit of customization... It would be a little more limited, but it could take the form as more power or more usages or more items. Plus, like I said above, it would let Super-Scientist! who just took the Channeling option to gain a specialization and also encourage them to choose Crafting as their Channeling focus. That might be the best route.
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"Regardless, an [enchanted] item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage." YS280 (EDIT: Aha! That's where it came from! I gotcha... Never Mind. I must have missed the "two times" the first read through... But doesn't this contradict the quotes above and below?)
"The effect strength of a potion, like enchanted items, is equal to the wizard’s Lore." YS280
It just limits the number of declarations and maneuvers you can use to boost the potion's power. Probably a good thing since potions are generally created on downtime...and a wizard with plenty of time can throw thirty plus shifts into a spell.
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Final Draft, I think...
SUPER-SCIENCE!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; any sufficiently defined magic is indistinguishable from technology. You're able to invent and build fantastic devices that are only dreamed about in science-fiction to create effects that blur the line between science and magic. Beware, for the cold logic of Science can be used to justify any action... the same inspirations that created radiotherapy for curing cancer, first created nuclear bombs.
Cost: 4 refresh for the package. Reduce this cost by 1 if you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost by 2 if you have both. However, Super-Science! is not compatible with the normal aesthetics of magic. If you have both this power and either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then your Evocation or Thaumaturgy power must comply with the thematic and mechanical restrictions of this power.
Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288). Super-Science! does not use the usual set of skills for creating super-natural effects; Resources replaces Conviction, Craftsmanship replaces Discipline and Scholarship replaces Lore for the purposes of spellcasting with Super-Science!
Super-Science! is particularly dependent on technology to produce its magic-like effects. Super-Science! evocation effects always require a focus item, and cannot be created without one. Focus items and enchanted item created using Super-Science! are always of a technological nature and are, therefore, capable of being hexed. The engineering methods and theories required to create Super-Science! items are highly improbable and unbelievable, however, making Super-Science! devices particularly resistant to magical hexing. Any focus items or enchanted items you create have a base defense against hexing equal to your Scholarship + twice the number of enchanted item slots the item occupies. Furthermore, you gain one free Crafting specialization of your choice.
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Looks great. It'll go onto the master list once I get around to updating it again, unless you object.
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Looks great. It'll go onto the master list once I get around to updating it again, unless you object.
Not at all... And thanks for all the help.
All that's left is the little details of Science!'s agenda, and what form it takes when collecting debt. I'm thinking that the agenda can best be summed up by "Knowledge is Power", and that compels to collect debt should ideally take any form related to insatiably inopportune curiosity and the creation or acquisition of unnecessarily complex technology.