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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 02, 2020, 12:59:35 AM
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In Battle Ground Harry will almost certainly have to come clean about some of the secrets he holds, just to assure even those who are his supporters on the White Council, and some will be obvious from the way he conducts his defence of Chicago.
Harry loves being mysterious and secretive, “wizard crack”, but is Harry going to have to go cold Turkey and how far?
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I'm not sure what secrets he has left. All the higher powers know everything. And if the Council votes him out, he won't have to tell them anything. If they don't, then what's the Senior Council going to do?
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Secrets for the white council. Except for the gatekeeper, he knows.
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Might be useful to note who knows what
That Demonreach is his Sanctum
That he is the Warden
That he keeps Amorracius
That he has the Crown of Swords
...the Lance of Longinus
...the placard
...etc.
...Bonea/Bob
Two key elements: The KotC aren't Accords members, and operate outside of magic nation purview, and only Hades knows for certain what he snatched.
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Then there are his family relationships Thomas and Eb and the true identity of Margaret LeFay and Maggie Dresden.
That he has Soulfire and is therefore honoured by the White God.
That he had the shadow of a Fallen in his head.
Elaine, that she is a wizard and former surviving apprentice of Justin DuMorne.
Eb doesn’t know much of this stuff.
I can imagine Harry before the the White Council being made to tell the entire truth and spill all of his secrets.
Harry : and finally Carlos Ramirez is a virgin
All Other Wizards: not a secret
Carlos: Nooooooooo!!!
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He's either getting kicked or he's going to have to explain a number of things to the white council because he spent this book dropping a bunch of red flags right before a vote that was already looking bad for him (and then there's that confrontation scene with Ramirez in the trailer that's coming up).
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He's either getting kicked or he's going to have to explain a number of things to the white council because he spent this book dropping a bunch of red flags right before a vote that was already looking bad for him
Well, enough of the White Council leadership could be killed in the battle that the Council splits. (Say, most of the Senior Council and Luccio get killed, Cristos declares himself Merlin, and the Wardens -- now practically all young ones -- rebel.)
If Harry becomes Blackstaff - and the prospects for Eb's survival aren't looking great right now IMO - that might also alter the situation.
Of course, the Council could split and Harry could still get kicked out!
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Harry isn't going to tell anyone about Elaine, that's not really "his" secret to tell.
I think the Senior Council knows about Demonreach already.
The really big thing is Thomas & his connection with the White Court. PT really makes Harry look like he's been subverted by the White Court.
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The White Council know about Demonreach, only the GateKeeper, Listens and Eb know he is The Warden of Demonreach. The Wardens are named for The Warden, and I suspect Captain of Wardens was originally the deputy of The Warden or where no Warden of Demonreach existed appointed to lead the Wardens.
This would technically mean Harry is Luccio’s superior, just neither knows it. Once he takes down Ethnui this is going to be realised by all, he is The Warden and fully acting in that role, making it difficult for the White Council to boot him out, but also impossible for him to keep with the secrets that he has.
His family secrets will come out, and Harry won’t mind that he has a daughter and that she is the reason the Red Court went extinct. Consider that a warning, come for me direct, not through my daughter. Nicky knows so this removes Nicky’s power over Harry. Another secret, Harry knows how to kill Nicky.
It will be obvious that Harry has control of three objects of power, a Sword, the Athame and the Placard, the first is probably known, the latter two are going to be a real shock when Harry uses them.
If Bob and or Bonea come into play then those secrets are going to come out. Bob was known to be Kemmler’s and Bonea is similar enough to Bob to raise questions. One secret which might come out is one of Bob’s, I suspect his mother is Lea (a muse) and whilst terrified of Mab, bounces around like a 5 year old when Lea is around.
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Crown of Swords
Erm... wrong series my guy, though it was heavily inspired by the bible and just about everything else out there. ;)
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I agree, Elaine isn't his secret to tell. Harry doesn't really know his family history, Thomas has
told him a little, but at least on page he hasn't told Harry much of what his mother was like or how she got along with Lord Raith. Eb has told him next to nothing and what he has told him was under duress. So not much to reveal there. He could try to tell the Council about Justin, but there are still
those who won't buy that Justin went rogue if not down right warlock.
Warden of Demonreach may not be his secret to tell either, there is a reason why the island went
without one for as long as it did. At the moment I doubt that Harry knows fully what that reason is.
I don't think Soulfire was meant to be advertised either, it wasn't exactly announced to Harry that
he was going to get it, it just happened. After the fact Uriel told him why he received it, but it didn't come with a user manual.
Nor do I think the fact that he is the custodian of the Swords is meant to be advertised, that would make them too vulnerable. The relics as well are not supposed to be widely known, on the contrary
there is a reason why they were locked in the vault.
Bob is no longer his to blab about, and remember what Luccio said about him at the end of Small Favor? The Council would want him destroyed, most likely Bonea along with him.
And face it, Harry really doesn't know a whole lot about any of the above, so there isn't a whole lot for him to come "clean" about.
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I'm expecting the White Council meeting to go quite a bit differently than Harry expects.
1) Only two Senior Councilors will be present: The Merlin and Ancient Mai. (Gatekeeper is unavoidably busy elsewhere -- dealing with the massive Outsider assault on reality.)
2) Ancient Mai will defend Harry. She'll relate how outraged she was at his behavior in Turn Coat; and how his wild-and-rebellious exterior concealed a well-layered plot that uncovered Peabody's treachery; she'll spin a generous version of Changes, in which he becomes Winter Knight as a way to end the war he started; and she'll talk about how a Foo Dog fights beside him, along with Knights of the Sword, and how he's been seen wielding soulfire (like by LTW in Turn Coat).
3) This sets loose a flood of "Harry saved my cat once" stories -- over the years, lots of non-militant wizards have recommended him to friends of friends who had monster problems, and he's always come through.
(See: the prom episode in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.)
4) Messenger arrives with word of Ethniu's disruption of the Peace Talks, and the need for backup.
5) The Merlin moves to adjourn the meeting until later.
6) Ancient Mai objects. Closing statement: "When you hear of the Last Titan rising from the sea to destroy a city, how does it make you feel to know that Harry Dresden is there?"
7) Harry's status as a wizard is confirmed by general acclaim before the meeting adjourns.
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Well, enough of the White Council leadership could be killed in the battle that the Council splits. (Say, most of the Senior Council and Luccio get killed, Cristos declares himself Merlin, and the Wardens -- now practically all young ones -- rebel.)
If Harry becomes Blackstaff - and the prospects for Eb's survival aren't looking great right now IMO - that might also alter the situation.
Of course, the Council could split and Harry could still get kicked out!
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Harry isn't going to tell anyone about Elaine, that's not really "his" secret to tell.
I think the Senior Council knows about Demonreach already.
The really big thing is Thomas & his connection with the White Court. PT really makes Harry look like he's been subverted by the White Court.
With a side helping of succumbing to the WK mantle thanks to that skit with Freydis on the dance floor.
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Harry is going to have to come clean about that as well, and if he throws in that Freydis offered him a threesome with Murphy, the grinding of Carlos teeth will be audible, remember they think he has been with Lara.
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There is only one solution. Match Freydis with Carlos. ;D
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This has been considered, but I don’t think she would be very gentle with him.
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Harry is going to have to come clean about that as well, and if he throws in that Freydis offered him a threesome with Murphy, the grinding of Carlos teeth will be audible, remember they think he has been with Lara.
A gentleman doesn't kiss and tell.... ::)
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Your thinking of John Marcone.
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He is used to that.
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But maybe fighting against giants should be an ideal opportunity for Carlos to gain her respect and that is what is really needed for a relation with Freydis.
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The White Council know about Demonreach, only the GateKeeper, Listens and Eb know he is The Warden of Demonreach.
The Merlin knows. See Eb's journal entry Harry reads in TC.
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Knows about Demonreach or Demonreach and Harry? I doubt the latter.
And yes a good showing against Grendlekin would go a long way with Freydis, however if the Grendlekin have brought their female kin, Carlos had better watch out, they can smell a virgin.
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In Battle Ground Harry will almost certainly have to come clean about some of the secrets he holds, just to assure even those who are his supporters on the White Council, and some will be obvious from the way he conducts his defence of Chicago.
Harry loves being mysterious and secretive, “wizard crack”, but is Harry going to have to go cold Turkey and how far?
I'm not really sure Harry will need to pony up on his secrets to survive. The whole Game is now set to change. With the masquerade in tatters, the political calculations of his value will shift dramatically. Particularly if Harry very publicly engages Ethniu and succeeds, saving Chicago. Given that subtlety is not exactly his normal forte, that seems a reasonable conclusion to make.
He would be a public celebrity hero, and THE face of the White Council to a newly awakened mortal humanity. Kicking him out then would be a colossal stupid move in the uncertain ground the Supernatural scene would find themselves in.
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Knows about Demonreach or Demonreach and Harry? I doubt the latter.
Harry and Demonreach. Eb talks about Harry and Demonreach, how "we" try to keep Harry out of trouble to no effect, how the Gatekeeper thinks telling Harry about what's really going on with Demonreach would be useless, and how the Merlin thinks they should put Harry under immediate surveillance.
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That doesn’t mean the Merlin knows about Harry and Demonreach, the Merlin wants Harry under surveillance which would show him spending considerable time there, meaning he might guess. Harry has inadvertently become the Merlin’s worst political opponent attracting his ire. None of the three Senior Council members are likely to discuss Demonreach with the Merlin, but he would discuss Harry with them.
Harry knows the true nature of Demonreach and he didn’t care. I am not sure they realise or appreciate Harry knows that Demonreach is Supernatural Supermax and that he has fully realised its resources beyond that of a mere sanctum, nor are they aware of his arsenal. They will see him use two major supernatural artifacts and the full power of Demonreach in Battle Ground, realising both their worst fears and hopes at the same time.
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I read Eb's journal entry as the Merlin wants Harry under surveillance because he's the Warden. It doesn't say it explicitly, but that's how I read it.
I do believe that most of the Senior Council doesn't really know what's going on with Demonreach based on what the Gatekeeper tells Harry about how the Council "knows only as much about our roles as it needs to-and that isn't much." Now he specifically says "the Council" and not "Senior Council," so they might know everything, but I doubt it.
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Jim has given himself wiggle room, so he isn’t nailed down on it, letting the reader (literally) interpret things. The Merlin thinks Harry is up to no good, and has been embarrassed by him several times already.
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This has been considered, but I don’t think she would be very gentle with him.
To be fair, neither was Molly, and he survived that...
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And you think he could take another episode like that? It might kill him.
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And you think he could take another episode like that? It might kill him.
You just have to create the right ambiance for a date with Freydis. First you slaughter a dozen giants together and then you make out on the field of slaughter while the crows are feasting.
For extra atmosphere you can add a nice audible illusion. https://youtu.be/P73Z6291Pt8
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You forgot the liberal inbibing of mead, a great sage once said “candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker”.
The mead would be for Carlos, not Freydis.
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You forgot the liberal inbibing of mead, a great sage once said “candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker”.
The mead would be for Carlos, not Freydis.
What was the saying? Something like it increases the desire but is bad for the performance. :) Better afterwards, you shouldn’t disappoint Freydis, that could be fatal.
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"the Lance of Longinus" or at least the blade from the lance.
I think that secret is going to come out near the end of the book in spectacular fashion. Didn't Harry also bring out another item, the placard? I think those items, or even if Harry only uses one of those items; well, it will make quite a splash in both the Council and the rest of supernatural world. Even the Senior Council will first wonder how Harry got those items and then have to ask themselves if they want to cross Harry, knowing that he is even scarier than they realized. I can imagine at least one Senior Council member asking Harry where he got the spear and Harry answering, "I stole it!" Plus, Harry may have saved the day, so there could be that going for him.
I think the only secret which may cause Harry a big problem is his rescue of Thomas. To reveal that secret would put Harry on Mr. Etri's s**t list, a place Harry doesn't want to be. The alternative is to go along with the lie (illusion) that Harry and Lara were seen in flagrante, which will make the Council believe that Lara has her hooks into Harry.
Everything else; the Council doesn't really need to know.
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I think the only secret which may cause Harry a big problem is his rescue of Thomas. To reveal that secret would put Harry on Mr. Etri's s**t list, a place Harry doesn't want to be. The alternative is to go along with the lie (illusion) that Harry and Lara were seen in flagrante, which will make the Council believe that Lara has her hooks into Harry.
I'm not sure the Svartalves will be as much of a problem now. It would have been a huge problem if Harry and Lara had been caught. But now that it's done...
It's probably actually better if it does come out, the Wardens & Senior Council thinking that Harry's compromised by the White Court is probably worse for Harry than a Svartalfar vendetta.
Harry was acting as Winter Knight to repay favors from Mab to Lara. So under the Accords he's fine.
If the Svartalfar just try to up and murder the Winter Knight for something he did "in his official capacity", that's an insult to Winter.
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The only outcome which allows Thomas to walk free from Etri’s wrath is if someone else used Thomas as a cats paw, and Harry can prove it and offer them up instead to placate Etri. That is pretty much Eb or Evanna based on the characters in play with any motivation to injure Thomas.
Harry therefore needs that to become public knowledge, even if it puts Eb at risk, as he might try something similar to get Harry out of the way so he can control Maggie. Eb killed him once already. That confirmed that Eb sees him as expendable. His grandfather or his brother and daughter, no contest.
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"the Lance of Longinus" or at least the blade from the lance.
I think that secret is going to come out near the end of the book in spectacular fashion. Didn't Harry also bring out another item, the placard? I think those items, or even if Harry only uses one of those items; well, it will make quite a splash in both the Council and the rest of supernatural world. Even the Senior Council will first wonder how Harry got those items and then have to ask themselves if they want to cross Harry, knowing that he is even scarier than they realized. I can imagine at least one Senior Council member asking Harry where he got the spear and Harry answering, "I stole it!" Plus, Harry may have saved the day, so there could be that going for him.
I think the only secret which may cause Harry a big problem is his rescue of Thomas. To reveal that secret would put Harry on Mr. Etri's s**t list, a place Harry doesn't want to be. The alternative is to go along with the lie (illusion) that Harry and Lara were seen in flagrante, which will make the Council believe that Lara has her hooks into Harry.
Everything else; the Council doesn't really need to know.
Yeah, well, Harry can also tell the Council that he has Thomas in a maximum security prison in solitary until he gets a fair trial. Let them contemplate that. 8)
The only outcome which allows Thomas to walk free from Etri’s wrath is if someone else used Thomas as a cats paw, and Harry can prove it and offer them up instead to placate Etri. That is pretty much Eb or Evanna based on the characters in play with any motivation to injure Thomas.
I think that is just what he is going to do, however it might be another book or two before he gets around to it and some of us at this rate will never live to see it. ::)
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In the Murder By The Book Q & A Jim mentioned he might add another book before the BAT to tie up plot lines. So eat healthily, exercise, and wear sunscreen.
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In the Murder By The Book Q & A Jim mentioned he might add another book before the BAT to tie up plot lines. So eat healthily, exercise, and wear sunscreen.
Old age catches up with the best of us eventually. Wear your mask, social distance, and wash those hands! ::)
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I'm picturing the scene:
Etri: "Why shouldn't I kill you where you stand for robbing me of the justice I was due?"
Harry: "Duty."
Etri: "Oh, that's alright then."
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He took Thomas from Marcone’s custody and may have prevented Etri from undertaking an unpardonable injustice in preventing the true guilty party from getting away with it.
As regards Marcone, if I were Harry I would try this argument. “You placed Thomas in the surviving part of my home, which I have never relinquished, and which you were not a guest, and without my permission. In those circumstances you are not the affronted party, I am under Guest Right.” Do that in front of the Accords powers and it puts Marcone in a very tricky situation.
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I am not responsible. Ask Lara.
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Nope he can’t fully shift the blame to Lara, it only absolves Mab, if Harry is incriminated so is Murphy who is not acting under a favour owed to Mab, and is doing this not under duty or favour.
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Would love to see Marcone's face when Harry makes that argument.
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Nope he can’t fully shift the blame to Lara, it only absolves Mab, if Harry is incriminated so is Murphy who is not acting under a favour owed to Mab, and is doing this not under duty or favour.
Murphy is acting as Harry's retainer. Ask Toot.
And he can point to Mab as well. He is her vassal and she ordered him to obey Lara. He was only doing his duty. Ask Mab.
Basically it is Lara's duty to handle the diplomatic fallout and in the text she recognised that.
If Thomas is truely rescued in the end that will probably happen, Thomas will also support Harry with her. If it is messed up and Thomas is not resqued Lare will seek revenge against Harry.
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Murphy isn’t Harry’s vassal and that claim would not be accepted.
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Murphy isn’t Harry’s vassal and that claim would not be accepted.
She is his concubine. What is important is that she acted as Harry’s dependent under Harry’s command. That is enough.
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She is his concubine. What is important is that she acted as Harry’s dependent under Harry’s command. That is enough.
I seriously doubt that Murphy would consider herself a concubine. She may have acted as a soldier under Harry's command, but she'd never consider herself his dependent.. And if that was suggested, it would really piss her off. From her viewpoint I believe she'd prefer to be called a vassal, though she might bristle at that as well.
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I seriously doubt that Murphy would consider herself a concubine. She may have acted as a soldier under Harry's command, but she'd never consider herself his dependent.. And if that was suggested, it would really piss her off. From her viewpoint I believe she'd prefer to be called a vassal, though she might bristle at that as well.
What she thinks about these things is not the most important consideration. It is about what people like Lea think and she was quite clear about Susan.
And we don't need a formal arrangement. There was never a formal arrangement between Harry and Toot for example, just short time deals.
The bottom line is that Murphy was not acting independently, she was Harry's responsibility.
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I seriously doubt that Murphy would consider herself a concubine. She may have acted as a soldier under Harry's command, but she'd never consider herself his dependent.. And if that was suggested, it would really piss her off. From her viewpoint I believe she'd prefer to be called a vassal, though she might bristle at that as well.
Yes Murphy would get very prickly about being called a concubine.
She is acting as an equal with Harry in the rescue, it really is the Grave Peril dilemma all over again.
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Yes Murphy would get very prickly about being called a concubine.
She is acting as an equal with Harry in the rescue, it really is the Grave Peril dilemma all over again.
Time to formalize the relation then :)
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The bottom line is that Murphy was not acting independently, she was Harry's responsibility.
You'd never convince her of that whether it is true or not, and actually you may have put your finger on what could lead to her ultimate downfall, even death.. Face it, she is hard headed and sees things her way and the last thing she wants is to be Harry's responsibility. That is what her reaction was all about at the end of the book, she can look after herself. That is why I said I thought she was being selfish, because if she does die, Harry will feel responsible for the rest of his life, he also knows he cannot stop her.
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You'd never convince her of that whether it is true or not, and actually you may have put your finger on what could lead to her ultimate downfall, even death.. Face it, she is hard headed and sees things her way and the last thing she wants is to be Harry's responsibility. That is what her reaction was all about at the end of the book, she can look after herself. That is why I said I thought she was being selfish, because if she does die, Harry will feel responsible for the rest of his life, he also knows he cannot stop her.
It doesn’t really matter in this case because Karin is smart and practical enough to go with any legal excuse Lara and Mab come up with to prevent the fallout. If she is informed about it at all.
But I don’t even think it will come up. I think Eb is wrong here. The white court is the accord member responsible for the whole affair and the svartalves are sticklers to the rules. They will work via Lara and she will take responsibility. Mab would not accept it if she tried to make Harry responsible and I don’t think the svartalves would accept that either.
And after the fight with the Fomor the outsider threat will be even more clear and the main members will want a diplomatic solution. Mab wants to keep her knight and so on. A diplomatic solution will be found. Nobody wants to offend Mab anyway.
Marcone soul gazed Harry. He knows Harry would go ballistic if he messes with Karin that way and I don’t think the svartalves are even interested in Karin. They were not interested in the Fomor servants in bombshells. They go for Lara as the responsible one.
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Etri to Mab “release Thomas from Demonreach”
Mab to Etri ‘I can’t”
Etri to Lara “release Thomas from Demonreach”
Lara to Etri “I can’t “
Etri to to Harry “release Thomas from Demonreach”
Harry to Etri “ I can ,but I won’t”
Putting Thomas on Demonreach means Harry is outside Lara’s and Mab’s control completely when he is on the island, try and force him on the island and you get taken down whether Lara, Etri or Mab.
Murphy is not a servant or Vassal Harry goes down, Murphy goes down. Harry is sure he can unravel what happened to Thomas before this becomes an issue and Murphy trusts Harry to do so.
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Etri to Mab “release Thomas from Demonreach”
Mab to Etri ‘I can’t”
Etri to Lara “release Thomas from Demonreach”
Lara to Etri “I can’t “
Etri to to Harry “release Thomas from Demonreach”
Harry to Etri “ I can ,but I won’t”
Putting Thomas on Demonreach means Harry is outside Lara’s and Mab’s control completely when he is on the island, try and force him on the island and you get taken down whether Lara, Etri or Mab.
Murphy is not a servant or Vassal Harry goes down, Murphy goes down. Harry is sure he can unravel what happened to Thomas before this becomes an issue and Murphy trusts Harry to do so.
Etri to Mab: order your vassal to release Thomas from the island, he is your responsibility.
If you want to have a criminal who is locked up in a foreign country you ask the government of that country not the governor of the local prison.
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Jim was once asked something along the lines of if Harry could take the Ladies Mantle, and his reply was not usually but Harry is one for breaking rules... Makes me wonder if Carlos staying a virgin isn't going to be relative to a powerful somehow actually...
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Murphy is acting as Harry's retainer. Ask Toot.
And he can point to Mab as well. He is her vassal and she ordered him to obey Lara. He was only doing his duty. Ask Mab.
Basically it is Lara's duty to handle the diplomatic fallout and in the text she recognised that.
Yeah.
The Svartalves may go after Thomas once he is healed and released from Demonreach, but they'll have real trouble going after Harry.
The only outcome which allows Thomas to walk free from Etri’s wrath is if someone else used Thomas as a cats paw, and Harry can prove it and offer them up instead to placate Etri.
Not the only outcome, IMO. If Harry can get some other claim of honor of equal weight he might be able to get the Svartalves to drop it... for example if he saves Etri's life in BG.
...or he could always try the tactic of, "Yeah the Red Court tried to go after my family too. It didn't end well for them. You sure you want to try this?"
Not that I think it's a good idea...
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Etri to Mab: order your vassal to release Thomas from the island, he is your responsibility.
If you want to have a criminal who is locked up in a foreign country you ask the government of that country not the governor of the local prison.
Yeah, but why should Mab listen to Etri? Under Faerie rules, rescuing Thomas was a favor given to Lara. I don't think Mab is going to go back on that.
Also it could be argued that Warden of Demonreach is a position Harry holds entirely separately from his position as Winter Knight...
I mean, the Svartalves are nothing to mess with lightly, but I can't see them having any leverage over Mab.
If Harry had been spotted rescuing Thomas during the talks, it would have been an embarrassment/loss of face to Mab. But now, especially given that the actual talks are now irrelevant?
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Marcone soul gazed Harry. He knows Harry would go ballistic if he messes with Karin that way and I don’t think the svartalves are even interested in Karin. They were not interested in the Fomor servants in bombshells. They go for Lara as the responsible one.
However when they soul gazed that was back in Storm Front, Harry and Murphy were barely friends, more along the line of professional colleagues. Now as a possible future, that is if Marcone knew what he was looking at in the first place, it might have Harry and Murphy as lovers, but I doubt he'd have seen anything then that would tip him off that Harry would go ballistic if he messed with her.
That doesn't mean to say that he doesn't have more current information that tells him how Harry would react.
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I don't think he needs to know they're lovers to know Harry will go ape sh*t for his friends.
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Yeah, but why should Mab listen to Etri? Under Faerie rules, rescuing Thomas was a favor given to Lara. I don't think Mab is going to go back on that.
Also it could be argued that Warden of Demonreach is a position Harry holds entirely separately from his position as Winter Knight...
I mean, the Svartalves are nothing to mess with lightly, but I can't see them having any leverage over Mab.
If Harry had been spotted rescuing Thomas during the talks, it would have been an embarrassment/loss of face to Mab. But now, especially given that the actual talks are now irrelevant?
Well yes, in the end Lara is the one to handle the diplomatic fallout though maybe the first favor was for Mab to help exactly with that.
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Remember that all Harry has done is move Thomas from a prison cell *in which he was dying* to one in which he's held in stasis. If the politics are handled properly, the svartalves might owe a debt for that -- the transfer and rescue have spared them the dishonor of having Thomas die in their custody waiting for trial.
Regardless of where Thomas is, I expect the svartalves will want an emissary appointed and a hearing held to rule on the attack. That's the point at which it would be really helpful if Harry could present them with the actual culprit and evidence of what happened.
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Remember that all Harry has done is move Thomas from a prison cell *in which he was dying* to one in which he's held in stasis. If the politics are handled properly, the svartalves might owe a debt for that -- the transfer and rescue have spared them the dishonor of having Thomas die in their custody waiting for trial.
Regardless of where Thomas is, I expect the svartalves will want an emissary appointed and a hearing held to rule on the attack. That's the point at which it would be really helpful if Harry could present them with the actual culprit and evidence of what happened.
Meanwhile everyone has to brace for an attack that could wipe everything out.. Then even if successful, it is going to be very messy, so lots of clean up. There is bound to be casualties among the leadership of the Accord members, so me thinks Thomas is going to be in that cell for a book or two, if he gets out at all.
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Possible. Unless the culprit is revealed during Battle Ground, Harry's not going to be in a hurry to resolve that plot before he has a way to heal Thomas.
Of course, I still think the obvious cure for Thomas is a female Forest Person. (See: the Bigfoot on Campus short story...)
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I find it very strange that the Swartalves beat Thomas so badly, they made it impossible for an Emissary or anyone else to question him, and effectively dealt a death sentence before the Emissary could judge him. The Swartalves are stickers for the rules, and their conduct appears to abrogate them.
This pushes me towards the Evanna theory, she wanted Thomas to abuse guest right and suffer death by Etri. This would require her to be Nemfected and upset with Thomas e.g . Seeking Asylum for Justine with the Swartalves. The way to infect a Swartalf something of Beauty, perhaps the headband.
Convenient that the GateKeeper isn’t present,
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Jim was once asked something along the lines of if Harry could take the Ladies Mantle, and his reply was not usually but Harry is one for breaking rules... Makes me wonder if Carlos staying a virgin isn't going to be relative to a powerful somehow actually...
I do think virginity has mystical weight in a lot of fantasy type stories. We've seen it's important to wamps and the Ladies. It may come up in some other meaningful way in some story.
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Carlos becoming the Summer Lady is the last thing he needs, but it would be hilarious.
I think there will be a grail quest and Carlos will be central to it his virginity a virtue rather than a source of endless fun.
The story is the Grendel story.
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The story is the Grendel story.
Forgot that one. We've only seen virginity being a bad thing so far in the DF. If Jim actually considers it, I can't see him not working some mystical advantage into it. Jim seems big on balancing these kinds of things.
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There is something that Harry could come clean about that has nothing to do with his own secrets. He could out Ebenezer as the Blackstaff to the younger wardens. The rest of the supernatural world seems to know about Eb's other job and see the White Council's hypocrisy about following the Laws of Magic for what it is, when they allow one of their own the privilege of breaking any of those laws when they see fit to do so.
I don't know what might trigger Harry to do that, I just thought that Harry isn't the only wizard keeping secrets; plus, the corner hounds are a clue that Ebenezer has been doing some time travelling. That might come up if Harry ever gets all the suspects in the same room in Battle Ground.
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Harry hates the way the White Council is hypocritical, executing Warlocks, ignoring the needs of lesser practitioners and the use of the Blackstaff (Marcone has a near identical view). If he gains authority in the White Council Harry will seek to change this. He has championed the Paranet, and refused to execute Warlocks (and now has an alternative which opens the door for rehabilitation), but if offered the Blackstaff would only take it to return it. No more premeditated murders or other breaches of the Laws.
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Harry hates the way the White Council is hypocritical, executing Warlocks, ignoring the needs of lesser practitioners and the use of the Blackstaff (Marcone has a near identical view). If he gains authority in the White Council Harry will seek to change this. He has championed the Paranet, and refused to execute Warlocks (and now has an alternative which opens the door for rehabilitation), but if offered the Blackstaff would only take it to return it. No more premeditated murders or other breaches of the Laws.
The problem is the stars are getting right for the outsider apocalypse. Harry will be more and more involved with the defense against the outsiders and by the time he gets any authority in the white council everything will be a chaotic emergency. Just mobilize everyone and start defending reality.
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The problem is the stars are getting right for the outsider apocalypse. Harry will be more and more involved with the defense against the outsiders and by the time he gets any authority in the white council everything will be a chaotic emergency. Just mobilize everyone and start defending reality.
The only answer I can see is to build on the Accords, that might be why various factions are trying to sabotage them. I think from here on out the White Council is going to be less relevant. The war with the Reds and their own divisiveness has greatly reduced their say in the over all Accords. Wizards are still important, but politically the White Council won't be able to throw their weight around like they once did.
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The whole point is that squabbles between Accords members are going to be. Thing of the past, so this was Eb’s last chance for a go at the White Court in his lifetime.
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The whole point is that squabbles between Accords members are going to be. Thing of the past, so this was Eb’s last chance for a go at the White Court in his lifetime.
But does he realize this?
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The whole point is that squabbles between Accords members are going to be. Thing of the past, so this was Eb’s last chance for a go at the White Court in his lifetime.
idk about a thing of the past, but yea. He definitely thought he could pull one over on them and get them thrown out of the accords or something. Didn't realize how Dresden would take it though... Oh my but if he DID do it, and under Dresden's own hospitality... The next fight they have is gonna go much different.
*His admittance of guilt is one of the few things I can see actually saving Thomas from the svartalfs themselves though.
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But does he realize this?
Intellectually yes, emotionally no.
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The attacks on the Accords may not be about the Accords so much, but an attack on Mab. The more attention she has to spend holding the Accords together, the less she can spare to do her real job.
Also, Fae seem to gain power from importance, e.g. how Toot-toot grows, and they're all about oaths and bargains. So the Accords disintegrating might actually weaken Mab personally.
Not sure about all the Accords nations pulling together. The Red Court seemed perfectly OK with working with Outsiders, and they were on the Accords... Plus the Circle may have subverted some nations.
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Remember that all Harry has done is move Thomas from a prison cell *in which he was dying* to one in which he's held in stasis. If the politics are handled properly, the svartalves might owe a debt for that -- the transfer and rescue have spared them the dishonor of having Thomas die in their custody waiting for trial.
Regardless of where Thomas is, I expect the svartalves will want an emissary appointed and a hearing held to rule on the attack. That's the point at which it would be really helpful if Harry could present them with the actual culprit and evidence of what happened.
Personally I'm hoping that Marcone tries to force the issue, only for Harry to say where he is and have Etri go "Y'know what, that probably satisfies the demands of Justice, you can let him out whenever, I consider this settled."
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I think we will have the Emissary appointed and Harry will present evidence to clear Thomas, although his current condition does mean he can’t be examined for mental tampering. That makes it difficult to clear him.
I think what will happen is that Harry will force a confession in this case, from Eb or Evanna in front of the Emissary.
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I think we will have the Emissary appointed and Harry will present evidence to clear Thomas
I doubt it. I think BG will be largely about the battle and no one will have time for this political stuff.
And after that... well, depends how the situation stands after the big battle. Lots of things could happen that would radically change the situation.
If Harry ends up imprisoning the Titan & is therefore publicly revealed as Warden of Demonreach, the svartalves might be a lot less willing to go against him. (And they should know how Harry responds to threats to family...)
Sure, Harry won't use the power of Demonreach for something like that (... probably... I think he might have in Changes if he'd known), but can anyone outside his POV be sure of that?
(BTW, I doubt Thomas was under mind control. So I don't think there is going to be evidence to clear him.)
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There is always time for that politics stuff......unfortunately. And Swartalves are not known for letting thing’s slide. Nor is Harry a bully, he hates bullies.
The other point is the weapon of assassination, a bomb, whilst Thomas could undoubtedly build one, it is unlikely he could smuggle it past Swartalf security. Which means it was already in the Embassy, and Thomas was used as a dupe by someone in the Embassy to take it to Etri. Eb could have dead dropped it off on his prior visit, or Evanna could have made it and passed it to Thomas to present to Etri.
If Thomas needed a weapon he could have physically taken one from a guard, lured Gedwig away and broken his neck, taking his weapon.
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There is always time for that politics stuff......unfortunately. And Swartalves are not known for letting thing’s slide. Nor is Harry a bully, he hates bullies.
The other point is the weapon of assassination, a bomb, whilst Thomas could undoubtedly build one, it is unlikely he could smuggle it past Swartalf security. Which means it was already in the Embassy, and Thomas was used as a dupe by someone in the Embassy to take it to Etri. Eb could have dead dropped it off on his prior visit, or Evanna could have made it and passed it to Thomas to present to Etri.
If Thomas needed a weapon he could have physically taken one from a guard, lured Gedwig away and broken his neck, taking his weapon.
If the bit about the Hounds is true, then Eb could have easily by time travel dropped off the bomb for Thomas to use.. Or Cowl did, he knows some nasty Ways in the Nevernever which might open on the Embassy grounds.
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The Swartalves are paranoid security freaks, Eb may have used the visit to Harry to test their defences and response times, he otherwise really had no need to visit Harry at that point in person, so this suggests a pretext on his part. The Swartalves took no action because Harry vouched for Eb, and because the Peace Talks themselves were imminent, and the White Council was a “friendly” power.
I don’t think the Never Never is an option into the Embassy.
There is also the question what purpose the assassination achieved, successful it would have removed Etri and set a war between the White Court and Swartalfheim, where the Accorded Nations would have come in on the side of the Swartalves. That purpose is usurped by the Titan and her challenge, unless the removal of Etri would have allowed Evanna to strip away from the Accords. As it is the Swartalves are not providing manpower only weaponry and defences.
Unsuccessful and it merely sets the White Court/Swartalf war in progress. A bomb is an imprecise weapon, suggesting it wasn’t really intended for Etri, but it’s discovery early to its triggering in Thomas’s hands would be enough to achieve this purpose.
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I don’t think the Never Never is an option into the Embassy.
Would you have thought it an option into the "Depths" under Lord Raith's mansion? Yet Cowl and his ghouls managed to open one to attack, Outsiders were also in larger planning on that one.
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There is nothing to suggest Cowls involvement in Thomas attack, and the Swartalves are the White Court, the White Court can only enter and exit the Nevernever in places close to their hungers nature. The Swartalves are accomplished magic users and don’t have that restriction.
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There is nothing to suggest Cowls involvement in Thomas attack, and the Swartalves are the White Court, the White Court can only enter and exit the Nevernever in places close to their hungers nature. The Swartalves are accomplished magic users and don’t have that restriction.
But would you be shocked if Cowl popped up? We haven't seen him in a while. Oh Cowl entered the Depts from the Nevernever and as far as I know he has nothing to do with any of the vamp courts.
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There is always time for that politics stuff......unfortunately.
I really doubt they will be lining up an Emissary and holding trials while a Titan and a Fomor army are attacking the city.
Now maybe immediately afterward... but I doubt it will be in BG at all.
Story-wise, it's not immediately relevant. The Svartalves can't go after him in Demonreach, and Harry and Lara don't yet know how to heal him so he can survive outside of Demonreach.
Thomas is not in "Christmas Eve", so I think he's still in Demonreach months later. This will probably be left for future books to resolve.
As far as the Svartalves know, Thomas mysteriously disappeared.
Once he pops up again, healed, *then* it's an issue (and Lara might be able to handle that).
And Swartalves are not known for letting thing’s slide. Nor is Harry a bully, he hates bullies.
Bullying, sure. But saying "if you want to kill my brother you'll have to go through me first" is entirely in theme for him.
EDIT: finished/fixed sentence about "Once he pops up again"
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Would you have thought it an option into the "Depths" under Lord Raith's mansion?
Yes, maybe not a safe or good one though. Skilled practitioners are the ones known for being able to block entry from the Nevernever. Whites aren't known for that. Svartalves are.
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Yes, maybe not a safe or good one though. Skilled practitioners are the ones known for being able to block entry from the Nevernever. Whites aren't known for that. Svartalves are.
My point though, and perhaps I wasn't clear, Harry and Cowl were both opening gates to the Nevernever in the Depths. If no one knew he was coming, someone could easily have opened a gate to get Thomas where he needed to be.
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My point though, and perhaps I wasn't clear, Harry and Cowl were both opening gates to the Nevernever in the Depths. If no one knew he was coming, someone could easily have opened a gate to get Thomas where he needed to be.
And Gard can set up such defenses. I forgot which book it was mentioned.
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Which Gard?
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My point though, and perhaps I wasn't clear, Harry and Cowl were both opening gates to the Nevernever in the Depths. If no one knew he was coming, someone could easily have opened a gate to get Thomas where he needed to be.
Harry isn't anywhere near as smooth as Cowl with opening gates. No convenient gates to where he wants to go, only the default for him while Cowl gets mildewland from wherever he is.
In this case a NN escape with Thomas would be a non-starter since he either runs into any defences or he ends up in whatever fortress is on the NN side of Marcone's fortress.
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I bet it is still Lea’s Murder Garden.
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I bet it is still Lea’s Murder Garden.
Which is still a pretty bad place to be. He didn't exactly fare very well against the murder centipedes last time he went there.
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It's telling that no one got through to the basement from the Never Never. Lea said something about a stack of bones of those who tried. It's Lea's garden and it has guards designed to keep intruders out and Harry at home. They almost ate Harry the one time he tried the door. It could be the reason why Marcone kept the basement when he built the castle.
Well ninjad twice while typing.
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That was my thought, Lea was an ally of the BFS, besides it would have been very convenient for body disposal.
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Which Gard?
That Valkyrie Marcone hired from Monoc. We have to assume that Marcones defenses in the nevernever around his base are far better than those of the white court.
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There is Sigurd and Freydis Gard
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There is Sigurd and Freydis Gard
But only one of them is working for Marcone
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It’s Marcone, both are probably working for him.
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It’s Marcone, both are probably working for him.
But their main boss is still Vadderung, they are his people hired out or loaned out..
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It’s Marcone, both are probably working for him.
It is vadderung. No
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That was my thought, Lea was an ally of the BFS
I'm not sure she still is, though. I think that was just because her obligations to Harry passed on to Molly. Once Molly became Winter Lady I'm not sure whether Lea is still involved.
But the garden could totally still be there, I'm not sure Lea could switch it over to Demonreach or the Svartalf embassy.
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Lea is still an ally....of Harry’s, want to bet she is behind the scenes in manipulating Harry get the BFS building?
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My point though, and perhaps I wasn't clear, Harry and Cowl were both opening gates to the Nevernever in the Depths. If no one knew he was coming, someone could easily have opened a gate to get Thomas where he needed to be.
My point was that Whites and Svartalves are different. Svatalves probably have defenses in place for that. Though Eb just walking up to Harry's apartment makes me think that maybe they aren't as impressive as we've been led to believe.
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My point was that Whites and Svartalves are different. Svatalves probably have defenses in place for that. Though Eb just walking up to Harry's apartment makes me think that maybe they aren't as impressive as we've been led to believe.
However you are not taking into account that Eb is not only a powerful wizard, but the Blackstaff, which means he may have a few tricks up his sleeve to by-pass any security if he sets his mind to it. Thomas simply doesn't.
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Svatalves probably have defenses in place for that. Though Eb just walking up to Harry's apartment makes me think that maybe they aren't as impressive as we've been led to believe.
I think it's some of both. From everything we've seen and heard, the Svartalves are not to be messed with lightly.
But Eb is good.
I don't think the Svartalves are really major powers; Etri seems pretty high up among them, and yet everybody considers the assassination attempt in PT a plausible threat. I don't think that would be true for any of the really powerful Fae.
Sure, Etri chops up a decently powerful (non-minion) Fomor in "Bombshells". But that's a long way from blasting apart two Lords of Outer Night with one spell like Lea does. I doubt he's even comparable to Molly or the Eldest Gruff.
I think the Svartalves are mostly dangerous because of their magic-technology and preparations. So nobody really wants to attack them, even the major powers, but they're not a major power themselves.
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I think the Svartalves are mostly dangerous because of their magic-technology and preparations. So nobody really wants to attack them, even the major powers, but they're not a major power themselves.
Yeah, I think you might call them the heads of the magical military complex. They are good at building arms and trading in them.
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Yes I am waiting for Hendricks to pick up a short handled war hammer from their armoury.