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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JoshTheValiant on March 08, 2012, 11:52:39 PM
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Anyone else ever bothered by the complete lack of the cooking, cleaning, sewing, and general homemaking trappings in every RPG ever?
No? Didn't think so. But here's a new skill I dreamt up to answer the question that no one but me asked, free to use if you like my drift, and feedback is always appreciated.
Homemaking
Homemaking is the skill of making a home warm and welcoming. From cooking good meals that warm the heart as easily as they fill the stomach to making handcrafted quilts and sweaters which add color to a room and wrap a person in love, Homemaking is a skill very much about showing love in a variety of forms. Homemaking is not normally taught in schools, at least not extensively, but rather handed down through family, strengthening the bonds of love and care that the skill naturally lends itself to. People with high skill in Homemaking include kindly old grandmothers, favorite uncles, and the dorm master you actually liked.
*Cooking
Homemaking is used to cook a good meal that is not only filling and nutritious, but comforting. Cooking normally takes up a scene to do, either as an excuse for a conversation (or rarely, a social conflict), or as an excuse to be absent for a scene while other work is done. Actually eating whatever was made, be it a Thanksgiving feast or a batch of chocolate chip cookies is the trigger for a Declaration, made at the Homemaker's skill, which applies an Aspect either to the eater or to the scene as a whole. Such Aspects are inevitably linked to an emotional reaction to the food or the company held or the symbol of what the food stands for.
*Handcrafts
Similar to Cooking, knitted, quilted, sewed, or woven knickknacks and clothing are the result of time spent crafting or Declarations that the work has been done on them, and their primary role is making Declarations about the emotional impact of the item made. However, Handcrafts can also be used to mend damaged items of the same stripe, restoring them to their original form. This is often just flavor, but it can occasionally be important to have items in their whole form. Besides, who likes holes in their socks?
*Personal Touch
Anything created by Handcrafts has one metaphysical note of importance: the time and care put into such handcrafted tokens creates a mystical bond between maker and receiver, in addition to leftover yarn and material always being viable for sympathetic links between the pieces of the whole.
*Thresholds
The big metaphysical muscle of Homemaking is in the creation and fortification of Thresholds. In addition to any Aspects of legacy that are a factor in a location's Threshold, half the Homemaking skill, rounded up, of the chief resident of that building (i.e. whoever runs the household and spends more time living there than anyone else) is used as the base for computing the Threshold of a building.
STUNTS
*A Mother's Wisdom - A life of gentle care lends itself to an understanding ear. You may use Homemaking with the Shoulder To Cry On Trapping from Empathy justifying recovery from Social and Mental consequences.
*Master Seamster - You're flat out magic with a needle and thread. Treat any handcrafts you create as two steps higher for determining quality and beauty.
*Kitchen Witch - Cauldrons are the implement of choice for brewing potions, and it's no wonder that the first potions were created as food. You may use Homemaking to determine potion strength instead of Lore.
*The Bane Of Skinned Knees - There's no minor injury you haven't seen, and fewer that you can't fix with a needle, thread, and a bottle of peroxide. You may use Homemaking instead of Scholarship for First Aid.
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Wanted to have a character that was good at cooking in a game being run actually. We kinda decided to use performance or scholarship for that as a catch all for skills ungoverned by other skills.
Though then that character is also very smart/scholarly or very musical in some fashion.
Not a perfect solution by anymeans.
I am wary of adding skills to the skill tree, it throws the system off a little.
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I'd put cooking under craftsmanship, personally.
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I have a character with the Aspect "Cooking is demolition without the Boom." who uses Demolitions for Cooking. However I'm seeing this as useful for an Alfred Pennyworth kind of butler.
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Looks unnecessary to me.
Performance can cover cooking, and is generally restricted by field so being a Superb chef doesn't make you a Superb singer.
Handicrafts are just Craftsmanship.
Thresholds are mostly fiat. (Also, your formula would make the standard 2 point Threshold really rare.)
Really, I don't see the point.
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It may not be necessary, but homes are a big deal in the Dresdenverse, so a skill to represent homemaking is definitely in keeping.
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Lots of important things shouldn't have skills. For example, there's no skill for sworn oaths or for True Love.
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It may not be necessary, but homes are a big deal in the Dresdenverse, so a skill to represent homemaking is definitely in keeping.
This is the real reason why I bothered to throw the skill together at all. I play with systems habitually, tweaking mechanics and skill lists and what have you until I get something I like better, and I've learned in my efforts the value of broad skills and the danger of superfluous skills. That being said, the Threshold trapping was a big light bulb moment for me, since it's so iconic for the series, and in fact, the REASON why I put that in there is because I preferred a non-fiat way of determining Thresholds.
I agree that Performance can be used to cover cooking... but it FEELS weird that cooking and singing should have anything at all to do with each other, and another thing I've learned through my game tweaking is that a game that feels weird or stale often stops being fun. (This is the same reason why in my game I redivorced Scholarship into Academics and Science as it was in Spirit of the Century. Sure, their trappings are all the same, but their subject matters are radically different.) It's the same argument for Craftsmanship covering sewing. Yeah, technically the rules cover it, but the leap between sewing and carpentry makes me go ???. Being judicious with specialties could alleviate the problem, but that seems antithetical to the actual spirit of a limited skill list. Do you necessitate specialties for Weapons? Guns? Burglary?
So in the end, the skill is all about flavor and the new Threshold trapping. Now that my poor offended ego is calmed down, thanks everyone for making me reevaluate the reasons for the skill. Good feedback is good. :D
EDIT: True point about sworn oaths and True Love. On the other hand, those are sort of all-or-nothing questions, much more appropriate to be the result of a Declaration or Aspect. And I would use Conviction to judge the veracity of either. ;)
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*Thresholds
The big metaphysical muscle of Homemaking is in the creation and fortification of Thresholds. In addition to any Aspects of legacy that are a factor in a location's Threshold, half the Homemaking skill, rounded up, of the chief resident of that building (i.e. whoever runs the household and spends more time living there than anyone else) is used as the base for computing the Threshold of a building.
This trapping may appear to remove the GM fiat element of a Threshold, but one must understand that GM fiat isn't a bad thing, not always, and certainly not a thing to be automatically dismissed.
Setting aside GM ego for a moment:
Making this a skill trapping could open up the possibility for a player to subvert the canonical narrative nature of a Threshold. What if Harry (who knows why) had this skill, took super duper care of his apartment, without the help of brownies, but was otherwise the same bachelor with few emotional ties? What will keep a player from using this to make a Threshold where the setting really wouldn't support a Threshold being valid? By the current rules, all one has to do is be the primary resident, and in a household of one, that isn't hard to keep up.
The GM has to assess the player is home often enough for this trapping to apply. The GM has to factor in the legacy of a house. All the safety checks to make sure such a skill isn't inadvertently misused are.... GM oversight.
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Honestly I like it. Sure it's unnecessary as those trappings can be covered by other skills, but it's always been clumsy for them to do so. I have recently been thinking along the lines of what skills are (because a friend is struggling with the same question for a system of his own design). How many you need or don't need. Too many and you wind up with skills like "Use Rope" or "Roundhouse Kick" and too few and you wind up with carpenters that can also cook and sing and a dozen other things that are extraneous to carpentry. I have come to the conclusion that they should be... Professions? Roles? A person who is a carpenter should take one skill that would allow them to do that (and which only contains what is necessary to be called carpentry). A person who is a homemaker should likewise. Anyway I've been digging the thematic approach lately, and so I like this.
Devon's got a point though, some GM fiat ought to remain in the thresholds. I don't see why we can't work with both though.
I am wary of adding skills to the skill tree, it throws the system off a little.
Not really. There are several other Fudge/Fate systems that have different skill lists (SotC and Bulldogs off of the top of my head), they're still Fudge/Fate. It does tend to alter the setting somewhat, but I would argue that this is actually more in line with the setting.
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This trapping may appear to remove the GM fiat element of a Threshold, but one must understand that GM fiat isn't a bad thing, not always, and certainly not a thing to be automatically dismissed.
Setting aside GM ego for a moment:
Making this a skill trapping could open up the possibility for a player to subvert the canonical narrative nature of a Threshold. What if Harry (who knows why) had this skill, took super duper care of his apartment, without the help of brownies, but was otherwise the same bachelor with few emotional ties? What will keep a player from using this to make a Threshold where the setting really wouldn't support a Threshold being valid? By the current rules, all one has to do is be the primary resident, and in a household of one, that isn't hard to keep up.
The GM has to assess the player is home often enough for this trapping to apply. The GM has to factor in the legacy of a house. All the safety checks to make sure such a skill isn't inadvertently misused are.... GM oversight.
Sorry to not be clear. I'm really not throwing out GM fiat, I've grown to understand how valuable the more abstract style of gaming can be (hence why I've switched from GURPS and D&D to Fate), and I really do like narrative freedom unrelated to strict hard-and-fast rules (mostly because I hate book lookup mid-session and math). This isn't so much about killing the fiat as it is giving a character a measure of control over their base, and helping a GM with more ways to tweak a Threshold.
The game as written doesn't have ANY mechanism for determining Thresholds except for Aspect invocations and a 2 or 3 baseline. That seems under-developed to me, and again, I really think that a Homemaking skill could be a real, legitimate use of a slot for the character it mattered to.
And frankly, I don't think Homemakers get enough respect anywhere, especially not in a game, and in a game where True Love is a mighty armor and a loving home is proof against the worst monsters out there, there's no reason why they shouldn't have a little more spiritual might than others.
As far as the tidy bachelor goes (not using Harry because I can't see Harry being a homebody), that would be a GM call (see? totally on the wagon!) but my intent with the skill is less on the actual craftiness and cleanliness of the skill and more on the heart that goes into it. Essentially, this skill is ABOUT emotional attachment. (Which actually makes a fair argument for some of these trappings being rolled into Conviction with some Stunts. But more Stunts aren't ever a bad thing, imo, so I'm fine with that.)
(Paranthetical statement!)
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And frankly, I don't think Homemakers get enough respect anywhere, especially not in a game, and in a game where True Love is a mighty armor and a loving home is proof against the worst monsters out there, there's no reason why they shouldn't have a little more spiritual might than others.
That's certainly true - I see where you are coming from. But it feels like an attempt to give Pure Mortals access to something like Bless This House without taking a supernatural power.
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That's certainly true - I see where you are coming from. But it feels like an attempt to give Pure Mortals access to something like Bless This House without taking a supernatural power.
.... And? They get Lethal Blow and Fleet of Foot, too. Besides that, Homemaking would be a +1 to YOUR Threshold strength for every two skill levels, as opposed to a flat +2 to wherever you happened to be. I think it's fair.
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What if Harry (who knows why) had this skill, took super duper care of his apartment, without the help of brownies, but was otherwise the same bachelor with few emotional ties? What will keep a player from using this to make a Threshold where the setting really wouldn't support a Threshold being valid?
If he did do that, and mean it, his flat's Threshold probably would be stronger than it is now (well, was then, but you know what I mean). The way I see it, the skill trapping suggests a baseline, but other things - including GM fiat and the number of other people there to appreciate what the homemaker does - would still move it up and down, the latter in Harry's case and the former in Charity's.
Alternatively, you could remove the trapping as a strict mechanical effect and just take it into account as part of the fiat. Or you could require regular visitors or other residents for that trapping to apply (after all, the OP description is about making the place welcoming).
Lots of important things shouldn't have skills. For example, there's no skill for sworn oaths or for True Love.
Well, no, but those things aren't skills (in the real-world sense) - they don't even imply skills - homemaking is and does.
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I don't think a new skill like that is necessary. In fact, I think that a lot of the trappings you mention can be found in different skills depending on the character. A chef in a restaurant would probably use craftsmanship to cook. Someone like Jamie Oliver (or any other TV chef, but he is the only english speaking one I know) could use performance, since it is more about the showmanship than the actual cooking. A mother could use empathy, highlighting the "making the family happy" part of a mothers cooking.
On the whole, I see homemaking as a cluster of skills rather than one skill for everything. Empathy, Craftsmanship, Scholarship, Presence, to name a few important ones. Pretty much like you don't have a skill "magic", but three separate skills for different tasks in a wizards career.
I would put cooking and handcrafts into craftsmanship, make personal touch work as declarations (maybe with a stunt which makes such declarations easier) and remove the threshold thing altogether. If you don't want a "crafty" homemaker, you can move them with a stunt. You could create a stunt similar to "bless this house" based on empathy for the threshold thing, I think that would work better. For a lot of things, I don't really think any skill even has to be too high, since most things should not be too hard. And if you need, you can always invoke the homemaker aspect.
Another thought: Playing things like this out does probably require the most combining of skills. For example helping kids with their homework could combine scholarship and empathy.
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On the whole, I see homemaking as a cluster of skills rather than one skill for everything. Empathy, Craftsmanship, Scholarship, Presence, to name a few important ones. Pretty much like you don't have a skill "magic", but three separate skills for different tasks in a wizards career.
Position acknowledged on the rest of your points, but on this spot I want to point out that not all occupations combine skills like this. What does a Scientist do that isn't Scholarship? A Librarian, as far as I can tell, ALSO uses Scholarship for their entire job. Strictly speaking, a Private Investigator only actually needs Investigation to do their job, though Stealth and Alertness often carry obvious incentive, and certain pulpy investigators require a whole mess of other skills.
Additionally, I'm not suggesting that Homemaking automatically covers the rigors of a mother (or anyone) actually teaching or raising or nurturing children (or anyone else). Just the aspects that have to do with the sanctity of the home. Empathy is still important for emotional healing and knowing those under your care on a deep level, Scholarship is still important for teaching and instructing, as is Conviction.
As far as skill trappings being found elsewhere... how do you feel about Burglary and Survival? Those seem like rather superfluous skills to me, in terms of trappings. Investigation covers a lot of both, and what is lockpicking if not skillful use of tools (Craftsmanship) and what is hacking but advanced programming savvy (Scholarship)? Should they be cut, in your opinion? (Honest question)
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Some occupations require one skill, others require several. And no matter what you do, Resources and Contacts and social skills will be useful.
Burglary could be split up pretty well, but lockpicking doesn't quite fit into Craftsmanship. Then again, you could always ditch that trapping and make anyone who wants to pick locks take a stunt for it. If I wanted to reduce the number of skills (which I don't) I'd probably axe Burglary first.
Survival has a number of difficult-to-duplicate trappings, though. Handling animals, riding animals, and surviving outdoors come to mind.
PS: I think it's easier to make new skills if you get rid of some old skills in the process, and vice versa.
For example, if you wanted to make a skill that covers arguing and formal debates, you'd have it easier if you were to get rid of Rapport. Then you'd have to move the remaining Rapport trappings into other skills, which would create a chain reaction.
Your best bet in such a case would probably be to rewrite/replace all 5 social skills.
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As far as skill trappings being found elsewhere... how do you feel about Burglary and Survival? Those seem like rather superfluous skills to me, in terms of trappings. Investigation covers a lot of both, and what is lockpicking if not skillful use of tools (Craftsmanship) and what is hacking but advanced programming savvy (Scholarship)? Should they be cut, in your opinion? (Honest question)
I agree, the 3 trappings from Burglary could easily be shifted over to investigation (casing), stealth (infiltration) and craftsmanship (lockpicking). In fact, they are even worded so that they are used with or like trappings of other skills. Yeah, I'm with Sactaphrax, it could probably be cut.
On the other hand, burglary is sort of the "think like a criminal" skill. I admit, it is a bit ambiguous, but I would leave it in just for this. A high burglary skill often indicates some sort of criminal activity on the side of the character. Depending on what skills he uses in conjunction, he becomes a different type of criminal. Of course, a good detective might have high burglary too, to think like a criminal. This could of course be done with a stunt. I think the difference to the other skills is that knowing how to do something is one thing, actually doing it (and in a criminal way) might be another entirely. Again, I admit that it is very sketchy.
Hacking btw. is a burglary stunt, moving the trapping from scholarship to burglary.
Survival has its merits entirely in itself. It is the wilderness skill and I don't think it can be covered by other skills all too well.
I think in general, every character concept should have 2-4 skills it focuses on. Mind you, I mean character, not necessarily job. If a job only needs 1 skill, that is totally ok, but it would probably not be too interesting to play a character like that. If you mix in a secondary concept, you should be fine. A character with a high concept of "Librarian" seems pretty dull. A "clued in librarian" or a "were-rat librarian" would be more interesting. Though admittedly the latter would only use different skills in were form, but still.
The same goes for charity. If she is just a character in the background, you don't really need a skillset for her anyway, and if she becomes a main character, she is going to need a bunch of skills to reflect her, so you should be covered either way.
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Burglary could be split up pretty well, but lockpicking doesn't quite fit into Craftsmanship. Then again, you could always ditch that trapping and make anyone who wants to pick locks take a stunt for it. If I wanted to reduce the number of skills (which I don't) I'd probably axe Burglary first.
Survival has a number of difficult-to-duplicate trappings, though. Handling animals, riding animals, and surviving outdoors come to mind.
I disagree about Lockpicking. What else is picking a lock except using tools to work on a lock? If sewing can be Craftsmanship, lockpicking definitely should, since a lock is an actual mechanical object.
Regarding Survival, handling animals looks to me like Presence (command and authority are two things that animals do tend to respond to, could also see an Empathy stunt for this), riding is definitely Athletics (could see stunts for Might for manhandling beasts and Driving because it's hilarious in concept), and scavenging seems like Investigation modified by Scholarship (you need to be able to FIND the food, but your biology class will tell you which mushrooms are bad for you). Seems straightforward to me. *shrug*
On the other hand, burglary is sort of the "think like a criminal" skill. I admit, it is a bit ambiguous, but I would leave it in just for this. A high burglary skill often indicates some sort of criminal activity on the side of the character. Depending on what skills he uses in conjunction, he becomes a different type of criminal. Of course, a good detective might have high burglary too, to think like a criminal. This could of course be done with a stunt. I think the difference to the other skills is that knowing how to do something is one thing, actually doing it (and in a criminal way) might be another entirely. Again, I admit that it is very sketchy.
Hacking btw. is a burglary stunt, moving the trapping from scholarship to burglary.
Darn it, I thought I remembered there being a hacking stunt, but I didn't double check my books to make sure. Point granted.
I see your point about Burglary being a think like a criminal skill (and I saw your point about the argument being sketchy, I'm just elaborating on the counter argument, not picking on you, don't worry. :D), but I think that is better handled by the Empathy skill (with a stunt like Criminal Psychology if you really want to emphasize it) or an Aspect like Dirty Cop or Elbow Deep In Corruption or To Catch A Criminal. In general, I think anything dealing mindset is the domain of Aspects. After all, Fists can be the skill of a prize fighter or a street punk or a black ops military guy or an army grunt. Guns can be the skill of a police officer, a sniper, or an assassin. Empathy could be a mother, a psychologist, or a sadist. I see skills as neutral, and their use determiend by the character.
As a complete side point, as long as I'm thinking about it, I fold Weapons and Fists together into a unified Fight skill. They're both limited enough in their trappings to not overwhelm the issue, imo. It also trims down on their inflated stunt lists compared to other skills, especially if you fold in a martial knowledge trapping the same way other skills have limited related knowledge trappings (gun knowledge for Guns, art appreciation for Performance, etc.)
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Following your logic, most skills can be derived from one or two more basic skills, but that would lead to pretty short list of skills that wouldn't be enough to fill the pyramid.
Lore for example is basically a specialised Scholarship skill. Deceit is a combination of empathy and performance. Investigation is Alertness combined with Scholarship. Intimidation can be emulated by Presence + any number of skills, depending on the way you want to do it.
But what all skills have in common is, that they perfectly represent the magical gumshoe genre.
Survival kind of has an extra role for me. Just because you know how to play a crowd or command a group doesn't mean you know how to handle an animal. Wilderness skills are almost unnecessary in an urban setting, so you can lump it all into one skill, but I believe it should still be there, just to separate those who have hands on experience from an academic. The same kind of goes for Burglary.
I know, that is something that can and certainly should be represented by aspects, but there is more. Burglary could be covered by other skills, but it would cover way more than what burglary does. The problem is, lockpicking can fit both skills, burglary and craftsmanship, but they come at it from entirely different angles. Yes, Burglary's trappings read pretty much like stunts on various other skills, but like I said above, so does lore in regards to scholarship. I would keep it just for the feel (you know, detectives and gangsters 'n' stuff), and (to come back to the topic) don't really see the need for a homemaking skill for pretty much the same reason. Even in the novels, it is mostly glossed over, and in the game, I don't think it is a skill that will get much use. You either gloss over the things that are covered, or you go into detail, but then you can take the original skills for that.
I might not be entirely coherent right now due to lack of sleep, so if anything up there is strange, I will gladly sort it out later.
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I disagree about Lockpicking. What else is picking a lock except using tools to work on a lock? If sewing can be Craftsmanship, lockpicking definitely should, since a lock is an actual mechanical object.
Regarding Survival, handling animals looks to me like Presence (command and authority are two things that animals do tend to respond to, could also see an Empathy stunt for this), riding is definitely Athletics (could see stunts for Might for manhandling beasts and Driving because it's hilarious in concept), and scavenging seems like Investigation modified by Scholarship (you need to be able to FIND the food, but your biology class will tell you which mushrooms are bad for you). Seems straightforward to me. *shrug*
All of Weapons is using tools. So is some of Scholarship and most of Performance. Also all of Driving and of Guns. Just because it uses tools doesn't mean it's Craftsmanship.
The question you have to ask yourself when deciding what skill something should fall under is not "can I justify this as X", it's "should a character with Superb X be good at this". Your suggestions fail that test. Being a great detective should not imply an ability to survive in the wilderness.
If you're thinking of pointing out that Weapons lets you use all weapons and Scholarship lets you access all fields of science, you're missing the point. See, being generally competent academically or with weaponry makes sense. Most people have specializations (stunts) but the field as a whole is something that you can learn all at once.
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I could see a stunt easily making Lockpicking a Craftsmanship trapping: A locksmith, for example, would presumably be able to pick locks if he's able to build them.
But anyway, the main problem I see with a Homemaking skill is...why? Do you expect PCs to be stay-at-home moms/dads? Is cooking and cleaning up the living room a reasonable part of supernatural investigations?
This is a game about, in large part, investigating, solving, and fighting supernatural crimes and creatures. The skills that exist are applicable to that end. Aside from making a threshold, which the RAW accounts for anyway, I don't see what Homemaking has to do with what the game is about.
Anyone who's a dedicated homemaker to the point of making this skill necessary is likely to be an NPC, and an NPC you can largely handwave things like this anyway.
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This is a game about, in large part, investigating, solving, and fighting supernatural crimes and creatures.
Not really. This game can be used for many different things.
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That's why I said "in large part."
Yes, you can use it for many different things, but the focus tends to be on getting out there and going on adventures in/with/around/against the supernatural community. Given that, I don't see how a dedicated homemaker would be much more than a flavor NPC. You could build a character around homemaking, but I don't really see how such a character would actively participate in a campaign enough to be a PC.
Every other skill, I look at it, and I can say, "Yes, you could make that your Superb skill and base a PC around it." Homemaking? Unless we're talking about Maid: The RPG, I don't think so.
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Following your logic, most skills can be derived from one or two more basic skills, but that would lead to pretty short list of skills that wouldn't be enough to fill the pyramid.
Lore for example is basically a specialised Scholarship skill. Deceit is a combination of empathy and performance. Investigation is Alertness combined with Scholarship. Intimidation can be emulated by Presence + any number of skills, depending on the way you want to do it.
But what all skills have in common is, that they perfectly represent the magical gumshoe genre.
Survival kind of has an extra role for me. Just because you know how to play a crowd or command a group doesn't mean you know how to handle an animal. Wilderness skills are almost unnecessary in an urban setting, so you can lump it all into one skill, but I believe it should still be there, just to separate those who have hands on experience from an academic. The same kind of goes for Burglary.
I know, that is something that can and certainly should be represented by aspects, but there is more. Burglary could be covered by other skills, but it would cover way more than what burglary does. The problem is, lockpicking can fit both skills, burglary and craftsmanship, but they come at it from entirely different angles. Yes, Burglary's trappings read pretty much like stunts on various other skills, but like I said above, so does lore in regards to scholarship. I would keep it just for the feel (you know, detectives and gangsters 'n' stuff), and (to come back to the topic) don't really see the need for a homemaking skill for pretty much the same reason. Even in the novels, it is mostly glossed over, and in the game, I don't think it is a skill that will get much use. You either gloss over the things that are covered, or you go into detail, but then you can take the original skills for that.
I might not be entirely coherent right now due to lack of sleep, so if anything up there is strange, I will gladly sort it out later.
There seems to be a double standard here to me. Burglary should be kept because it's specific and flavorful enough to be worth redundancy, whereas Homemaker could be folded into other skills despite the fact that including it with other skills makes any such character vastly more knowledgeable about things that have nothing to do with what they would do (remember, Craftsmanship is the skill of making, fixing, and breaking with tools, which makes it the skill of carpentry, metal working, sewing, tanning, construction, plumbing, electrical, engineering, etc.)
Also, I don't agree that Scholarship matches the flavor of the Dresden Files particularly well. Scholarship is such an absurdly wide skill that I wonder how someone could think that a chemist, a forensics specialist, a historian, a lawyer, and a computer programmer would ALL have the same skill at the same level, with only a few Stunts to differentiate them. Performance has a similar issue, though not to the same degree.
Hence why I'm in favor of rolling together the more redundant skills (Survival, Burglary) and dividing the more broad knowledge (read: Assessment/Declaration) skills (Scholarship, Performance). I think it moves the skills in a direction that makes them both more evenly balanced against each other, and allows more meaningful differentiation between characters.
All of Weapons is using tools. So is some of Scholarship and most of Performance. Also all of Driving and of Guns. Just because it uses tools doesn't mean it's Craftsmanship.
The question you have to ask yourself when deciding what skill something should fall under is not "can I justify this as X", it's "should a character with Superb X be good at this". Your suggestions fail that test. Being a great detective should not imply an ability to survive in the wilderness.
If you're thinking of pointing out that Weapons lets you use all weapons and Scholarship lets you access all fields of science, you're missing the point. See, being generally competent academically or with weaponry makes sense. Most people have specializations (stunts) but the field as a whole is something that you can learn all at once.
Except Craftsmanship is SPECIFICALLY the skill of making, fixing, and breaking (generally the assumption of safely, but not always in the case of demolition) with tools. Tools exist for everything, I'm not suggesting that a rock climber needs Craftsmanship to set up a belay or a chemist needs it to operate a bunsen burner. I do, however, think that lockpicking is a very specified form of breaking a lock safely using small hand tools. Your mileage obviously varies.
I don't actually think that Investigation is defined as the skill of being a detective. It's the skill of observation and identification, which is vastly important to a detective, but not the only application of the skill. What else is foraging but looking for and finding edible materials and shelter?
See previous point regarding Schoalrship. I don't think computer programming and ancient history have much to do with each other at all. I agree that computer science and advanced mathematics and physics and chemistry can all have easy links between each other, as well as languages and history and law all having easy links between each other... but not across the ENTIRE field of scientific, medical, liberal arts, and law. That, to me, seems absurd.
That's why I said "in large part."
Yes, you can use it for many different things, but the focus tends to be on getting out there and going on adventures in/with/around/against the supernatural community. Given that, I don't see how a dedicated homemaker would be much more than a flavor NPC. You could build a character around homemaking, but I don't really see how such a character would actively participate in a campaign enough to be a PC.
Every other skill, I look at it, and I can say, "Yes, you could make that your Superb skill and base a PC around it." Homemaking? Unless we're talking about Maid: The RPG, I don't think so.
Charity Carpenter is a stay-at-home mom who happens to be the wife of a Knight of the Cross, and a former sorceress. When her child was abducted, she stormed the gates of Arctis Tor herself to get her back. When her family was assaulted by fae assassins, she jumped in immediately with a nail gun after getting her family to safety. And yet, no one would confuse her with a primary combatant or a supernatural character, nor do I thikn that anyone would doubt that she COULD BE a PC. I really do think that her peak skill was Homemaking, with Fight and Intimidation coming behind.
A widowed grandfather has taken prodigious care of his home after his wife passed away, partly in her honor, partly because he enjoys the work and loves his children and grandchildren and rejoices in having them as company. However, when a band of vampires snatches them away after a visit, his interest in the occult and old army buddies come in handy to track them down and get them back. His home is his fortress, and he's not likely to ignore the supernatural threats in his city after having such a close personal brush with them himself. Homemaking peak with Contacts and Lore and Guns as lower tier skills, among other action man type skills atrophied from his active days.
I can readily imagine a character whose main role in a game is to have a supernaturally airtight home base, the same way a character could have the main role of being the money man or being the guy who knows his way around the movers and shakers of the community.
My game is different than yours. I really like the everyman, Feet In The Water sort of power level, with more or less normal people with normal interests and skills being forced to deal with the sudden influx of supernatural nonsense in their lives. I think Waldo Butters has a lot to do with that.
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Charity Carpenter is a stay-at-home mom who happens to be the wife of a Knight of the Cross, and a former sorceress. When her child was abducted, she stormed the gates of Arctis Tor herself to get her back. When her family was assaulted by fae assassins, she jumped in immediately with a nail gun after getting her family to safety. And yet, no one would confuse her with a primary combatant or a supernatural character, nor do I thikn that anyone would doubt that she COULD BE a PC. I really do think that her peak skill was Homemaking, with Fight and Intimidation coming behind.
A widowed grandfather has taken prodigious care of his home after his wife passed away, partly in her honor, partly because he enjoys the work and loves his children and grandchildren and rejoices in having them as company. However, when a band of vampires snatches them away after a visit, his interest in the occult and old army buddies come in handy to track them down and get them back. His home is his fortress, and he's not likely to ignore the supernatural threats in his city after having such a close personal brush with them himself. Homemaking peak with Contacts and Lore and Guns as lower tier skills, among other action man type skills atrophied from his active days.
I can readily imagine a character whose main role in a game is to have a supernaturally airtight home base, the same way a character could have the main role of being the money man or being the guy who knows his way around the movers and shakers of the community.
My game is different than yours. I really like the everyman, Feet In The Water sort of power level, with more or less normal people with normal interests and skills being forced to deal with the sudden influx of supernatural nonsense in their lives. I think Waldo Butters has a lot to do with that.
Charity Carpenter is potentially a viable PC because her top skills (Conviction, Weapons, as I recall) aren't limited to being useful within her own home, and her stay-at-home-mom-ness isn't her defining characteristic in a mechanical sense. She's still a homemaker, and it's a big part of her character, without having to reflect it in the stats. This is the sort of thing that Aspects are for--aspects will place limits on the flaws you see in Scholarship, and can bolster thresholds and the things you want this skill to cover.
In both your examples, the characters are viable PCs not because they're homemakers, but because they're a sparring partner to a Knight of the Cross (Weapons), and intensely faithful to the point of having superpowers (Conviction), or because he has knowledge, contacts, and can fight. In other words, the skills that come in handy during a scenario would be every skill other than Homemaking. In both cases, under your model, to actually go out and do anything to accomplish their goals, they'd have to leave the only place where their top skill matters.
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There seems to be a double standard here to me. Burglary should be kept because it's specific and flavorful enough to be worth redundancy, whereas Homemaker could be folded into other skills despite the fact that including it with other skills makes any such character vastly more knowledgeable about things that have nothing to do with what they would do (remember, Craftsmanship is the skill of making, fixing, and breaking with tools, which makes it the skill of carpentry, metal working, sewing, tanning, construction, plumbing, electrical, engineering, etc.)
Also, I don't agree that Scholarship matches the flavor of the Dresden Files particularly well. Scholarship is such an absurdly wide skill that I wonder how someone could think that a chemist, a forensics specialist, a historian, a lawyer, and a computer programmer would ALL have the same skill at the same level, with only a few Stunts to differentiate them. Performance has a similar issue, though not to the same degree.
Hence why I'm in favor of rolling together the more redundant skills (Survival, Burglary) and dividing the more broad knowledge (read: Assessment/Declaration) skills (Scholarship, Performance). I think it moves the skills in a direction that makes them both more evenly balanced against each other, and allows more meaningful differentiation between characters.
Yes there is a double standard, as there should be. The system has been created to reflect the vibe of the dresden files novels, not to reflect the real world. A lot of (bad) roleplaying systems are trying to to do exactly that and have skills for every possible job there is, with thousands of special rules for each of them. But that is not the focus of the dresden files.
The focus of the dresden files is mainly on hunting down bad guys, magic, mobsters, monsters and stuff like that. Which it does really good. Your academic speciality is only a very minor fact in the light of those things, which is why all of that is covered in "scholarship". The same goes for craftsmanship. A high skill there simply means "you are good at a trade", it doesn't specify which one, simply because it isn't really important. In cooperation with aspects, this becomes more interesting, because now you can compel on a field you are not good at or invoke on a field you are specialized in.
That's why you take driving if you know your way around town, even if you've never driven a car in your life. In the light of car chases and similar tropes, that is perfectly fine, there doesn't need to be a "navigation" skill.
Burglary is a skill reflecting the shady side, which is why I still like it, even if there are a lot of arguments against it. Survival, too, has its own merits.
Of course you can go another way, if you want to split skills up. But how, and where would you stop splitting? Would natural science be enough, or would you split it into physics, chemistry and biology? Would Law be enough, or would you divide it into subsections as well? Would math be a single skill (which you would need for natural sciences and a lot of others as well)? In my eyes, Scholarship is just to reflect a level of education, not the specifics, which is more than enough for all intents and purposes of the game.
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That's why you take driving if you know your way around town, even if you've never driven a car in your life. In the light of car chases and similar tropes, that is perfectly fine, there doesn't need to be a "navigation" skill.
Of course you can go another way, if you want to split skills up. But how, and where would you stop splitting? Would natural science be enough, or would you split it into physics, chemistry and biology? Would Law be enough, or would you divide it into subsections as well? Would math be a single skill (which you would need for natural sciences and a lot of others as well)? In my eyes, Scholarship is just to reflect a level of education, not the specifics, which is more than enough for all intents and purposes of the game.
Actually, the book itself suggests that if the character doesn't drive, you should use a different skill with that trapping, no stunt necessary. So, there you go.
As far as dividing Scholarship, I opted for Academics/Science, in the Spirit of the Century precedent, contemplating divorcing technical science (electronics, programming, engineering, physics, etc., call this Science) from medical science (chemistry, biology, surgery, diagnosis, etc., call this Medicine). I think Academics including history, law, language, literature and politics is probably sufficient. I haven't thought of any problem subjects yet, though I'm sure I will eventually, and then I might reevaluate.
Also greatly tempted to divide Performance into Art for painting, sculpture, cooking, decorating, etc (material arts) and Performance for acting, singing, music, poetry, dance, juggling, etc. (performance arts). Less convinced about this one, but it still appeals to me from a personal perspective.
The answer to "Where do you draw the line?" happens to be "where it feels right." :D
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First up: read the sidebar on page 136. It will probably be useful to you.
Second up: lockpicking is not like breaking. Nothing ends up broken. This is kind of an important difference.
Third up: lockpicking is kind of a weird edge skill that most people will have never attempted in their lives. So it makes sense for it, like surgery, to be gated behind a stunt.
Fourth up: A high Scholarship rating is not what you use to represent skill at Greek History. That's what stunts are for. A high Scholarship skill means that you are highly intelligent and broadly educated/well-read. As a guy with decent Scholarship in real life, I can tell you that this is not unrealistic.
Which is what I was trying to get at earlier. Scholarship 5 includes everything that being intelligent and broadly educated would make you good at and nothing else. By the same token, Investigation covers everything that being perceptive and analytical would make you good at and nothing else. Finding food outdoors and preparing it so that you can live off of it and finding shelter and so on requires more than being perceptive and analytical.
Fifth up: posts like Haru's are what I was trying to head off with my reply to Mr. Death. Most of the successful DFRPG games I've seen do not fit the mold (s)he speaks of. (I'm thinking of Night Fears, Evil Acts, Forced To Fight, and Enduring The Apocalypse here.) And most of the failed games I've seen do fit that mold. (I'm not saying which, sorry.)
DFRPG is a good system to play mortal gangsters with. It's also a good system for a dungeon crawl, and it can handle a game of high-stakes corporate politics too.
Basically, I think that DFRPG is a pretty general system. It can cover almost anything with only a few hacks. So I don't understand or like the whole idea that it's a game about being Harry Dresden.
Though I suppose I could be misunderstanding what Haru means here.
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More than anything I would argue that this skill is definitely setting appropriate. Think of the books that the game is based off of. Dresden regularly meets these characters, people who build refuges around them, who buy him a measure of peace and warmth so that he has positive reasons to fight (Charity, Forthill, even Molly and Murphy to an extent). Imagine what he would be like without them, brutal, without compassion, darker than he is even now. Now I'll admit that some of that is empathy and rapport, but some of it is other things, warm food, a place to rest, etc.
Whether or not it's mechanically necessary is going to vary from group to group, but I don't see any negative consequences to including it and because of that I don't see any reason to dissuade others from using it if they feel so compelled.
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The answer to "Where do you draw the line?" happens to be "where it feels right." :D
Sure, nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with splitting those skills. In general. I just don't see the need to do it for a dresden game (or to be more precise: for a dresden game as I would play it). If I were to play a different game with the same system, or maybe even a dresden verse game that would be centred on something different, I would certainly go and switch the skills around to reflect the change in style.
Which brings me back to the beginning again and to a question. Where do you see Homemaking used as an active skill? From the trappings, I personally can't think of anything, but I will gladly be convinced.
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Which brings me back to the beginning again and to a question. Where do you see Homemaking used as an active skill? From the trappings, I personally can't think of anything, but I will gladly be convinced.
That's the crux of my objection. The trappings give no indication of what the mechanical purpose is, or how it will be useful to a character outside of a very narrow setting. Most everything involved could be important, yes, but more as setting flavor than as game mechanics.
So, seconding Haru's question: How would using the skill actually benefit or progress the game in a way that's not already possible?
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It's a support skill that serves two purposes. Firstly the threshold trapping, which I like from a GM standpoint. Have you ever had a player try to game the threshold rules? "Oh, I rent out my safehouse to a family of four," etc. This gives players a measure of control over this, which makes them less inclined to try something ridiculous.
Secondly it gives the players a chance to apply aspects related to feelings of warmth or wellbeing. For example, I can use the skill to apply the aspect "Well fed" or "Reminded of home" or any number of things like that.
One of the things I realized last night while I was drifting off to sleep is that all this is really doing is creating a specialized craftsmanship (my wife works in the culinary industry, unless you're a food stylist the idea that cooking is Performance is a bit silly). So really if it's mechanically the same thing then does it matter if you use craftsmanship with the specialization rules that Sancta mentioned before, or a skill named Homemaking?
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It's a support skill that serves two purposes. Firstly the threshold trapping, which I like from a GM standpoint. Have you ever had a player try to game the threshold rules? "Oh, I rent out my safehouse to a family of four," etc. This gives players a measure of control over this, which makes them less inclined to try something ridiculous.
Eh, I'd prefer to use compels for that sort of thing. "Oh, you do? Well, since you don't live there, your power can't come in with you," or, "In that case, the bad guys are targeting them too. Good job!"
Secondly it gives the players a chance to apply aspects related to feelings of warmth or wellbeing. For example, I can use the skill to apply the aspect "Well fed" or "Reminded of home" or any number of things like that.
One of the things I realized last night while I was drifting off to sleep is that all this is really doing is creating a specialized craftsmanship (my wife works in the culinary industry, unless you're a food stylist the idea that cooking is Performance is a bit silly). So really if it's mechanically the same thing then does it matter if you use craftsmanship with the specialization rules that Sancta mentioned before, or a skill named Homemaking?
That's what I'm saying--why not just use the trappings of other skills (Craftsmanship easily covers cooking and handcrafts, Personal Touch is an easy declaration) instead of making up a whole new, very specialized skillset that's going to take up space on the pyramid?
Besides, if you have a Homemaking skill, it's only a matter of time before someone comes up with a stunt to somehow justify it being used for dodge rolls, and that would just be ridiculous.
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Eh, I'd prefer to use compels for that sort of thing. "Oh, you do? Well, since you don't live there, your power can't come in with you," or, "In that case, the bad guys are targeting them too. Good job!"
That's one way to do it, but I guess I would rather encourage my players to take control of their thresholds without doing ridiculous things to get there. It's the difference between negative consequences to actions, and enabling someone to make the right actions.
That's what I'm saying--why not just use the trappings of other skills (Craftsmanship easily covers cooking and handcrafts, Personal Touch is an easy declaration) instead of making up a whole new, very specialized skillset that's going to take up space on the pyramid?
I'm trying to say that it doesn't really matter either way. If someone has Craftsmanship with a homemaking bent or Homemaking makes no difference whatsoever. Mechanically and thematically it's the exact same thing. And adding another skill really isn't bad in any way.
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Getting back to the actual topic...
I really don't like this skill. Not only is it redundant and something that should be represented though an Aspect, it's got a significant mechanical issue. And that issue is: it's worthless. Seriously, this skill is so weak that it's kind of laughable. I'd rather take an underwater basketweaving stunt for Craftsmanship then put this down as one of my apex skills.
The difference between Craftsmanship and Homemaking is that Craftsmanship is actually useful.
I really don't think that Craftsmanship works for cooking. Only one of its three trappings is at all applicable.
What's so silly about Performance for cooking?
PS: Going back a bit, I think that Fists and Weapons could be merged without too much trouble. I'd regret the increased difficulty of making certain character concepts, but with a bit of aspect-based wrangling that'd be manageable.
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I really don't think that Craftsmanship works for cooking. Only one of its three trappings is at all applicable.
What's so silly about Performance for cooking?
Speaking as someone who cooks, and who does woodworking, there's a lot in common, actually. You put together materials/ingredients, you measure them out and cut them, there's a lot of working with your hands and considerable mechanical and technical knowledge involved.
It can be an artistic expression (hibachi chefs would certainly use Performance for it), but much more often it's simply to create something with utility.
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This may be crazy talk, but I'm thinking about an all-purpose Profession skill. Some thoughts:
Each rank buys you a Skill Trapping from another skill, or lets you make up a new trapping with GM oversight. . All the bought Trappings use the final Skill Rank to resolve. Maybe open to abuse.
Or maybe each Profession (whatever) skill you take allows you to borrow 2-4 Skill Trappings from other skills, with GM oversight (maybe just from the Scholarship/Crafting/Performance skills). Probably not outright combat skills.
Or maybe the skill's purpose is that it simply allows Declarations and Maneuvers within the skill's idiom.
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What's so silly about Performance for cooking?
Looking at it thematically Art is something that you have to have some talent for (I have studied for 12 years to be an actor and an artist, and I'm still not as good as others who have had less training), while cooking is a skill that can be easily learned or taught. I suppose that may be a bias of mine though, but it's based on my experience with many artists and cooks.
Mechanically though you're right, I could see two of the three trappings of Craftsmanship (making and fixing) being applicable, but three of the four trappings of Performance (appreciation, composition, and playing to an audience).
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First up: read the sidebar on page 136. It will probably be useful to you.
Second up: lockpicking is not like breaking. Nothing ends up broken. This is kind of an important difference.
Third up: lockpicking is kind of a weird edge skill that most people will have never attempted in their lives. So it makes sense for it, like surgery, to be gated behind a stunt.
Fourth up: A high Scholarship rating is not what you use to represent skill at Greek History. That's what stunts are for. A high Scholarship skill means that you are highly intelligent and broadly educated/well-read. As a guy with decent Scholarship in real life, I can tell you that this is not unrealistic.
Which is what I was trying to get at earlier. Scholarship 5 includes everything that being intelligent and broadly educated would make you good at and nothing else. By the same token, Investigation covers everything that being perceptive and analytical would make you good at and nothing else. Finding food outdoors and preparing it so that you can live off of it and finding shelter and so on requires more than being perceptive and analytical.
Fifth up: posts like Haru's are what I was trying to head off with my reply to Mr. Death. Most of the successful DFRPG games I've seen do not fit the mold (s)he speaks of. (I'm thinking of Night Fears, Evil Acts, Forced To Fight, and Enduring The Apocalypse here.) And most of the failed games I've seen do fit that mold. (I'm not saying which, sorry.)
DFRPG is a good system to play mortal gangsters with. It's also a good system for a dungeon crawl, and it can handle a game of high-stakes corporate politics too.
Basically, I think that DFRPG is a pretty general system. It can cover almost anything with only a few hacks. So I don't understand or like the whole idea that it's a game about being Harry Dresden.
Though I suppose I could be misunderstanding what Haru means here.
First: I am well aware of the sidebar. I think it's a useful middle ground between separate skills and a kitchen sink skill, but I prefer more well defined skills without having to work through "okay, so what is a reasonable specialty subject? Is history too broad? How about language? Should language be limited to just the rules of grammar and diction, or does it also include literature?" etc. I'm aware that most players will never deal with that question. But *I* do. Besides that, I don't find that marking specialties is a particularly accurate way of dealing with the situation. I, for example, have fairly low Scholarship, but that doesn't mean that I only have one or two areas of knowledge. That just means that I'm not deeply entrenched in books. However, I don't think Butters has five specialties worth of knowledge, since he's mostly been shown to be a medical whiz (reflected by his stunts) and competent with computers and nerd cred. Should his Scholarship be bumped down to give him less specialties? I don't think so. YMMV.
Second: "Breaking" doesn't necessarily mean "taken apart beyond repair". Might does that. Craftsmanship's breaking trapping I've always seen as "disassembling", which allows it to be put back together again. In that respect, I think lockpicking is absolutely a subtrapping of breaking, because it's using tools to force a lock to disengage without breaking it completely.
Thirdly: Fair point on a stunt, though if we maintain the argument on specialties, Craftsmanship is definitely up for inclusion, and locksmith is a definite valid category, which I imagine would include knowledge of the tools to open a lock on demand.
Fourthly: I stepped away from GURPS and D&D because I don't like the "broadly intelligent" application of a knowledge skill or stat. I believe that people who focus on learning for the sake of knowledge will probably be broadly knowledgeable, but that's not the same thing as assuming that anyone who is knowledgeable is broadly so. Again, this is an issue of balance for me. I don't think stunts are the answer to representing a focus in this matter when a variety of skills does the same thing... without costing precious Fate Points.
Fourthly section b: I agree. It requires knowledge of the plants and fungi that are safe to eat, and knowledge on the habitats and patterns of other critters so you don't squat in someone else's home. Which is why I suggested Investigation limited by Scholarship (or, in my skill list, Medicine, which covers biology and poisons). :D
Fifthly: I agree. I see DFRPG as a mode of Fate, which is my system of choice. I'm currently using it to run swords and sorcery. I can see the system being well up to the challenge of running a more social-oriented game, with no physical combat whatsoever. In fact, I generally think that's Fate's greatest strength, since physical combat can easily be covered by three skills or less. Next to magic, social combat tends to be where most of its depth is invested.
More than anything I would argue that this skill is definitely setting appropriate...
Whether or not it's mechanically necessary is going to vary from group to group, but I don't see any negative consequences to including it and because of that I don't see any reason to dissuade others from using it if they feel so compelled.
Thank you. This is what I was getting at with my OP. In general, we seem to be on the same page, so I won't bother repeating your arguments.
This may be crazy talk, but I'm thinking about an all-purpose Profession skill. Some thoughts:
Each rank buys you a Skill Trapping from another skill, or lets you make up a new trapping with GM oversight. . All the bought Trappings use the final Skill Rank to resolve. Maybe open to abuse.
Or maybe each Profession (whatever) skill you take allows you to borrow 2-4 Skill Trappings from other skills, with GM oversight (maybe just from the Scholarship/Crafting/Performance skills). Probably not outright combat skills.
Or maybe the skill's purpose is that it simply allows Declarations and Maneuvers within the skill's idiom.
I think Fred's blog has some musings about this, or something very similar. Don't feel like dredging through it right now, but it'd be worth a look. I'm not generally in favor of it myself, simply due to a general dislike of trapping-per-skill point. All of your average skills are going to be sorely lacking, and widely applicable skills are not the same thing as strongly potent skills. :/
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@Mr Death: Isn't woodworking Performance too? Carpentry is clearly Craftsmanship, but I figure that woodworking refers to arts and crafts.
@devonapple: Probably not a good idea. Partly for the reasons Josh gives, partly because it's so incredibly vague in what it does. Plus, not all trappings are equal. Why would I ever take Fists defence when I could have Athletics defence?
@Josh: There's more to wilderness Survival than finding food. It's a fairly complex activity that doesn't break down well into other skills.
As for Home-making, it's not necessarily a bad idea. Sure, it's not to my taste, but my taste is not that important.
Unfortunately, the current execution of the skill has problems that are not matters of taste.
First of all, the skill's big trick can be duplicated by aspects, which cost nothing. You'll have to rework the threshold system to make this worthwhile.
Second, there really is too much overlap with other skills. You'll have to do some more extensive reworking if you want to avoid redundancy. And you should want to avoid redundancy.
And thirdly, the lesser trappings of this skill are just really incredibly weak. They need to be made stronger.
As for the knowledge skills, the problem here is that the knowledge skills are not extraordinarily powerful and that splitting them up will make them really weak.
I guess you could split every skill into two or three pieces. After all, having swimming and running and dodging use the same competency makes just as much/as little sense as having history and computer science and mathematics use the same competency. Skills are really broad, there's room to split them.
I'd rather just use stunts and aspects, though.
A variety of skills might not cost precious Fate Points, but it does cost precious skill points. And in this case, I think the skill points are more precious.
PS: I gave some thought to the skill list, and I think I've come up with a reworking that compresses everything into 10 skills. But I'm not sure if it's appropriate for here...should I make a new thread?
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@devonapple: Probably not a good idea. Partly for the reasons Josh gives, partly because it's so incredibly vague in what it does. Plus, not all trappings are equal. Why would I ever take Fists defence when I could have Athletics defence?
GM
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Sight
(I may have had too much coffee)
PS: I gave some thought to the skill list, and I think I've come up with a reworking that compresses everything into 10 skills. But I'm not sure if it's appropriate for here...should I make a new thread?
Cool! Probably a new thread.
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@Mr Death: Isn't woodworking Performance too? Carpentry is clearly Craftsmanship, but I figure that woodworking refers to arts and crafts.
Sorry, I was referring mainly to carpentry--but even so, the skills and tools you use for carpentry are the same you'd use for arts and crafts.
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The other thing that limits it as a skill is that it's not a skill you would see many people have. Look at how common many of the other skills are. On every character sheet, you tend to see athletics, endurance, discipline, conviction, alterness, etc. If you pulled out a random in genre character, how many would have the homemaking skill?
This is one of the reasons that I don't much care for the 'driving' skill, since the setting doesn't have car chases all that often, or at least, the type of car chases where very skilled driving makes a big difference.
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@Josh: There's more to wilderness Survival than finding food. It's a fairly complex activity that doesn't break down well into other skills.
As for Home-making, it's not necessarily a bad idea. Sure, it's not to my taste, but my taste is not that important.
Unfortunately, the current execution of the skill has problems that are not matters of taste.
First of all, the skill's big trick can be duplicated by aspects, which cost nothing. You'll have to rework the threshold system to make this worthwhile.
Second, there really is too much overlap with other skills. You'll have to do some more extensive reworking if you want to avoid redundancy. And you should want to avoid redundancy.
And thirdly, the lesser trappings of this skill are just really incredibly weak. They need to be made stronger.
As for the knowledge skills, the problem here is that the knowledge skills are not extraordinarily powerful and that splitting them up will make them really weak.
I guess you could split every skill into two or three pieces. After all, having swimming and running and dodging use the same competency makes just as much/as little sense as having history and computer science and mathematics use the same competency. Skills are really broad, there's room to split them.
I'd rather just use stunts and aspects, though.
A variety of skills might not cost precious Fate Points, but it does cost precious skill points. And in this case, I think the skill points are more precious.
PS: I gave some thought to the skill list, and I think I've come up with a reworking that compresses everything into 10 skills. But I'm not sure if it's appropriate for here...should I make a new thread?
Could you elaborate on Survival? I think we're using different definitions of the action, and I'd like to know how you see it.
Fair point about trapping strength for Homemaking.
I strongly disagree about knowledge skills being weak. The very existence of a declaration mechanic in the game makes them be, imo, hell on wheels for turnabout skills, especially when you take into account the possibility of such skills like "Theory in Practice" and "Dizzying Intellect" (both cribbed from Spirit of the Century, both allow knowledge skills to be used as attack skills in physical and social combat, respectively) or to use them for outside the box indirect attack skills.
I personally think the comparison between history and chemistry and computer programming is much closer to the difference between Might, Athletics, and Weapons, myself. All three of those skills use the same basic physical fitness level of their user in different, specified ways for vastly different effects, just like the previous three use their user's mental capacity for information and facts in vastly different fields for drastically different sorts of results in different situations.
To each his own. *shrug*
EDIT: Final point, a character, using the general guidelines in the book, gets about five skill points per additional point of refresh. A stunt may be easier to decide to get or not get, but skills are always improving. Frankly, I think skills in general have a tendency to be inflated. If Superb is master class, it really ought to be a rare level. If Great is veteran, it shouldn't be too common either, imo.
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You roll Survival to survive, right? So a use of Survival might be "You're trapped in the Nevernever until the next full moon. Roll Survival, difficulty 7, take consequences to cover your margin of failure."
Knowledge skills are not weak, they just aren't significantly stronger than other skills. So splitting them would make them weak.
I see little relation between Athletics and Might and Weapons, honestly. Weightlifters don't run well, and swordsmen aren't generally great wrestlers.
But an excellent mathematician can generally handle computer science or biology. I've known a fair number of smart people, and only one or two were specialized. People rarely excel in only one subject at school.
The 5 skills to one Refresh thing is not a good ratio for upper-level characters. The Senior Council probably have 30+ Refresh each, but they definitely don't have 135 skill points apiece. See the Generic NPC thread for how I'd suggest tackling upper-level characters.
And yes, skills are inflated. Far as I'm concerned, Fantastic skills are the apex of human ability. And even "plot devices" don't go past Legendary.
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PS: Going back a bit, I think that Fists and Weapons could be merged without too much trouble. I'd regret the increased difficulty of making certain character concepts, but with a bit of aspect-based wrangling that'd be manageable.
My major complaint about the split between fists and weapons is that it makes being good at ass kicking start to take too much of your character building resources. The only canon character that is solely defined by his combat ability is Kinkaid. Everyone else is awesome at combat as a sideline.
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You roll Survival to survive, right? So a use of Survival might be "You're trapped in the Nevernever until the next full moon. Roll Survival, difficulty 7, take consequences to cover your margin of failure."
Knowledge skills are not weak, they just aren't significantly stronger than other skills. So splitting them would make them weak.
I see little relation between Athletics and Might and Weapons, honestly. Weightlifters don't run well, and swordsmen aren't generally great wrestlers.
But an excellent mathematician can generally handle computer science or biology. I've known a fair number of smart people, and only one or two were specialized. People rarely excel in only one subject at school.
See, that's my point. In your version of Survival, you're not only abstracting away what survival actually entails, you're simply handwaving it out of existence. I, meanwhile, would be running a stranded in the Nevernever as a significant event, possibly worth a milestone all by itself, complete with Stealth to avoid detection by predators, Craftsmanship to create shelter if you couldn't find something with your Investigation rolls, which would also be used with Lore as a limiter to find food to keep yourself fed through the night, and then likely throw in a Thaumaturgy Challenge to get the gate open at the proper window of time to get back out before the big nasty you were hiding from clues in to the scent of magic being used. A single skill for all of that just wouldn't cut it for me.
On the other hand, a person with Might is more likely to have a higher Weapons or Fight skill than someone who has nothing. A person with Weapons will almost certainly have both Might and Athletics at a fair level, since cardio and strength training are both explicit parts of combat training (note that I am talking about COMBAT training, not simply martial arts classes at a community college in a vaccuum of intent. A recreational T'ai Chi practitioner MIGHT justify having a low Fists with little to no corresponding physical skills, but that'd be a stretch.) Again, they're definitely distinct, and yet they will have a tendency to be linked.
As for smart people knowing a lot, yes, I mentioned that tendency, but I don't think that's because they simply have a high knowledge skill, especially before you get to graduate studies (which is the bare minimum I'd consider before you got to Good skill, btw), I view that as them actually investing in knowledge skills in a balanced way. Most smart people I know I wouldn't put above Average or Fair skill. Getting Good or higher takes some real work, which talent alone simply can not match. I don't think it's unusual enough for someone to know more about programming than biology to make it worthy of a Stunt. Hence the skill split.
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In DFRPG, most things can be represented several different way. Sometimes you'll want to run killing an army as a full combat, sometimes you can just make it a series of Weapons rolls.
Anyway, there are parts of Survival that can't be duplicated with other skills. But I really don't feel as though going into that would be productive.
What's important is what having Survival does for characters. If I want to make a D&D Ranger or just a hobbyist camper, I don't want to have to buy 3-5 skills to do that. Besides, having everyone who knows the outdoors be very intelligent would be weird.
The Survival skill covers such concepts nicely. By cutting Survival you make such characters very impractical to make.
You don't have that problem with Burglary, but you do have it in a lesser form when you merge Fists and Weapons.
PS: Scholarship is not a skill for being good at a single field. Your average graduate student has a stunt boosting his field. This is not a problem, stunts are a normal thing to have. And for those who don't have stunts, there's Aspects.
Also, it's worth noting that an average reporter or police officer has multiple Good skills. Good skills aren't that special.