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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: dspringer1 on July 10, 2017, 10:57:10 PM
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The wardens are an organization who can draw upon the resources of the entire White Council. Why do they not have magical equipment issued to them? Yes I know they received the swords up until the events in Dead Beat, but why not other items? I get it - magic is personal. But problems are consistent.
First the obvious. Every warden needs personal protection from bullets, swords, claws and clubs. Why not issue every mage something roughly comparable to Harry's duster? You can make the argument that protection vs ghosts or fire is an uncommon need, but bullets and claws is pretty common problem.
The sword filled another need -- disrupting magical constructs like ghosts, demons, magical defenses, or wards. Very common need when your primary focus is targeting warlocks. Plus a sword is always useful.
Third would be the need to communicate. I guess you can argue that wizards can use phones like anybody else, but phones do not work in the never-never and are not easily carried in the field. I am less concerned about this one as it is clear that this magic requires concentration, there is magic to "listen in" on this type of communication and other magic that can "jam" it, so communication crystals might just be too hard to use and too unreliable to be routinely issued in the field.
Anybody have any thoughts as to why this is not happening. Or maybe it is happening, but Harry is just too good to benefit from the standard equipment. Other obvious equipment help (or other help) that wardens should logically be getting that Harry has not mentioned?
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In one of my fan fics, I had wizards use black communication stones like the one Harry and Eb used in Changes. It took place during Turn Coat, and the stones were common use for the wardens, but not common for regular members. That way it could be somewhat excusable for Harry to not have one, being the outcast that he was.
I like the idea of there being a wizard that specializes in networking BCS's for wizards. The stones would be used to both communicate with and locate each other. They'd have to be crafted to the individual, so the network couldn't be hacked if one fell into enemy hands.
Less relevant to your post, I also had them use crystal skulls as ward lamps to create barriers against the Undead (with the idea that they were hot commodities back during WW2 thanks to Kemmler's nonsense) but they weren't standard issue.
As for armor, unless it's made from metal, it's probably hard to make a standard issue item that folks could universally refresh on their own. Even though Harry is probably the Warden that visits Edinburgh the least, the others probably don't go as often as necessary to have someone do the refresh for them.
I'd say their best bet would be to have senior wardens teach new wardens (like Harry did for some of them in the RPG stuff) the basics, and let them craft things themselves that work perfectly with their own magic.
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As for armor, unless it's made from metal, it's probably hard to make a standard issue item that folks could universally refresh on their own. Even though Harry is probably the Warden that visits Edinburgh the least, the others probably don't go as often as necessary to have someone do the refresh for them.
Well, better & more expensive materials can bring the required maintenance rate down considerably. The Council might not issue much gear directly, but it would be kinda stupid of them to tell their fighting force that resources to increase survivability are their own problem to fund out of their not exactly lavish paychecks.
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I think after the war with the Red Court and the Fomor Conflict will result the Council at least the Wardens being more modern with weaponry. Almost all of them are of the younger generation now, so I wouldn't be surprised to see magically enhanced handguns as the new swords at least until Luccio gets her enchanting skills back.
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When you consider that the "basic" equipment given to a police officer in the mundane world includes a Uniform (the Warden's cloak), a Gun (Warden's sword), and their "shield" (a Grey Cloak) it's not really surprising that the Wouncil wouldn't provide much more.
Yes, today, Body armor (Kevlar vest) are routinely worn, but you have to remember that the Wouncil is a bit backward when it comes to modern Methods and the like.
That being said, I'd be surprised if they didn't teach new Wardens different wards and such. Not equipment, but tools none the less.
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The fact that Luccio is the only person in the Council making warden swords suggests an explanation for why there's no standard equipment: there just aren't enough enchanters out there to make the stuff.
That said, apparently wardens do get discretionary funding as part of their stipends meant to help them acquire good materials for enchanting their equipment themselves... Harry spent all of his on Little Chicago.
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I dont think it's a matter of resources so much as Consensus. Aside from the (thus far) unique anti-magic benefit of the Warden Swords, I doubt there would be any given task where you could get a bunch of different wizards with fundamentally different mindsets to agree on what was the /best/ method of implementing magic Armor or Shields or whatnot. The argument could be made, for example, that Harry's "Obdurate Bastion" style defenses are not the best, they are terribly inefficient and can be overcome with enough brute force opposition.
The fact that Luccio is the only person in the Council making warden swords suggests an explanation for why there's no standard equipment: there just aren't enough enchanters out there to make the stuff.
That said, apparently wardens do get discretionary funding as part of their stipends meant to help them acquire good materials for enchanting their equipment themselves... Harry spent all of his on Little Chicago.
Said funds also were minuscule, prior to TC they hadnt been updated for Cost of Living in decades.
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I dont think it's a matter of resources so much as Consensus. Aside from the (thus far) unique anti-magic benefit of the Warden Swords, I doubt there would be any given task where you could get a bunch of different wizards with fundamentally different mindsets to agree on what was the /best/ method of implementing magic Armor or Shields or whatnot. The argument could be made, for example, that Harry's "Obdurate Bastion" style defenses are not the best, they are terribly inefficient and can be overcome with enough brute force opposition.
Said funds also were minuscule, prior to TC they hadnt been updated for Cost of Living in decades.
Not minuscule -- when he unveils Little Chicago, Harry has a big monologue about how the Wardens are paid more than he'd been letting on.
They'd set the pay rate for Wardens in the fifties--but even the Council wasn't hidebound enough to ignore things like standard inflation, and the Warden's paychecks had kept pace through discretionary funding in--my God, I'm starting to sound like part of the establishment.
Long story short. The Wardens have sneaky ways of getting paid more, and the money I was getting from them, while not stellar, was nothing to sneeze at, either.
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Not minuscule -- when he unveils Little Chicago, Harry has a big monologue about how the Wardens are paid more than he'd been letting on.
A full-time Job that pays for a single Model Train-set, but requires he keep his day job? Minuscule. Not an actual Pittance, but Minuscule.
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A full-time Job that pays for a single Model Train-set, but requires he keep his day job? Minuscule. Not an actual Pittance, but Minuscule.
A single model train-set? We're talking about Little Chicago. A huge thing built out of hundreds of custom-crafted metal and wood structures. He didn't just buy things off a rack. He had to have every single piece customized, and some of them are pretty hefty in themselves.
Custom metal work on that scale is going to cost a fair amount.
The skyline rose up more than a foot from the tabletop, models of each building made from cast pewter--also expensive, given I'd had to get each one made individually. Streets made of real asphalt ran between the buildings, lined with streetlights and mailboxes in exacting detail--and all in all, I had the city mapped out to almost two miles from Burnham Harbor in every direction.
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A single model train-set? We're talking about Little Chicago. A huge thing built out of hundreds of custom-crafted metal and wood structures. He didn't just buy things off a rack. He had to have every single piece customized, and some of them are pretty hefty in themselves.
Custom metal work on that scale is going to cost a fair amount.
Fair amount by hobby expenditure standards, absolutely. Fair amount as in equivalent to the Salary of a Full-time Job (even setting aside Hazard Pay), I still think Not Even Close.
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Fair amount by hobby expenditure standards, absolutely. Fair amount as in equivalent to the Salary of a Full-time Job (even setting aside Hazard Pay), I still think Not Even Close.
Harry's not dumb. He knows the value of a dollar. He's the one saying that everything in it is expensive and he says the Warden's salary is "nothing to sneeze at."
I'd trust that he knows how much that means.
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Same reason not everyone uses the same spells all the time. If it's standard you can come up with a standardized counter to it. Like Harry did with the old holding spell he learned under Dumorne.
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Same reason not everyone uses the same spells all the time. If it's standard you can come up with a standardized counter to it. Like Harry did with the old holding spell he learned under Dumorne.
Excellent point for a tactical standard of Non-standardization. I like it.
Standardization also implies that there would be certain practical spell that any warden can be expected to master, regardless of strength or individual skills. There may not actually be any such common ground in the base skill-set. WE know it varies greatly, but not how much reliable overlap there is.
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Same reason not everyone uses the same spells all the time. If it's standard you can come up with a standardized counter to it. Like Harry did with the old holding spell he learned under Dumorne.
This is a valid point, but I think you take it too far. After all, nobody says police should avoid wearing Kevlar simply because criminals would "expect it" and counter it. It helps often enough that it is worthwhile making standard equipment for police operating in dangerous areas/missions.
Nobody is saying that equipment makes the warden. Each warden is primarily going to rely on their own personal (and individualistic) magic. However, some needs are very standard. Every warden will be attacked by physical weapons (bullets, blades, claws). Issuing each warden a standard form of protection vs this very common risk makes sense. It is certainly not going to be the only defense a warden has. But it is something that every warden will find useful and it can easily save a lot of warden lives.
For example -- harry has his shield bracelet and his duster. The duster would be the equipment that sometimes saves his life, but the shield bracelet is his personal defense and the item that saves his life more often. The duster would be the example of "issued equipment" as it is very general purpose and unintelligent. It requires no interaction with the wizard. We have seen other examples of such devices like in the duel with the White court vamps where one had a item to protect against magic.
Other devices cannot be made by others. For Harry, the bracelet is far more flexible, but has to be created by Harry as it is really just focusing his own personal magic.
All I am arguing is that it makes sense for the White Council to issue "some" magical equipment to each warden. We have not seen evidence of this (as of yet), but it makes sense.
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This is a valid point, but I think you take it too far. After all, nobody says police should avoid wearing Kevlar simply because criminals would "expect it" and counter it. It helps often enough that it is worthwhile making standard equipment for police operating in dangerous areas/missions.
That's because Kevlar is the only stop in town for armor against modern weapons; which are all basically just guns. If there were qualitatively distinct armor options (say magnetic/energy armor vs physical) or if other weapons were more common (say Flamethrowers) then the arguments might be comparable.
Nobody is saying that equipment makes the warden. Each warden is primarily going to rely on their own personal (and individualistic) magic. However, some needs are very standard. Every warden will be attacked by physical weapons (bullets, blades, claws). Issuing each warden a standard form of protection vs this very common risk makes sense. It is certainly not going to be the only defense a warden has. But it is something that every warden will find useful and it can easily save a lot of warden lives.
For example -- harry has his shield bracelet and his duster. The duster would be the equipment that sometimes saves his life, but the shield bracelet is his personal defense and the item that saves his life more often. The duster would be the example of "issued equipment" as it is very general purpose and unintelligent. It requires no interaction with the wizard. We have seen other examples of such devices like in the duel with the White court vamps where one had a item to protect against magic.
But who's to say that Harry's brand of Shield that is a force-wall is universally superior enough to Carlos' Entropy-based shield to the point where all wardens should standardize to that method. His Duster has been pounded through an awful lot.
Other devices cannot be made by others. For Harry, the bracelet is far more flexible, but has to be created by Harry as it is really just focusing his own personal magic.
I dont think this is actually true so long as you know the principles the object functions on. Harry can use a Borrowed staff without difficulty.
All I am arguing is that it makes sense for the White Council to issue "some" magical equipment to each warden. We have not seen evidence of this (as of yet), but it makes sense.
Fair. The Swords would have qualified as such while they were still possible. Though I suppose it's worth noting that the only example we have of standard issued equipment was something that had to be individually crafted to suit each Wizard's unique Magic and Mindset, despite them all apparently being functionally identical.
There is also the matter of the Burden of Upkeep. Per WOJ the vast majority of Harry's time goes to basic maintenance on each of his gizmos, or they eventually get worn down by the sunrises and need to be re-enchanted. Each item that is Standard Issue is one more timesink for each warden, translating to one less item of personal/optomized usage they can maintain themselves, or less time they can actually be doing the Job of a Warden.
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@Dspringer, to compound on what Quantus said, it's a matter of knowing the weakness. Kevlar doesn't do jack against knives so i'm sure if criminals could get ahold of some fletchet guns they would use them, or armor piercing or anything else they can snatch up and they often do. they lack the broad organization or motive to widely distribute said objects though. To bring this into comparison to the DF, Someone figured out how to block wizards off from their magic and multiple groups went about making their own version and freely distributing them. so greater enemies plus greater resources equals need for greater flexibility.
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@Dspringer, to compound on what Quantus said, it's a matter of knowing the weakness. Kevlar doesn't do jack against knives so i'm sure if criminals could get ahold of some fletchet guns they would use them, or armor piercing or anything else they can snatch up and they often do. they lack the broad organization or motive to widely distribute said objects though.
Yup, as I recall it Ballistic Batons and Knives (aka modern-day spring-driven crossbows) started to become illegal more or less in line with the availability of Kevlar to the general public. I always wanted one as a kid but my dad said they were too dangerous...
To bring this into comparison to the DF, Someone figured out how to block wizards off from their magic and multiple groups went about making their own version and freely distributing them. so greater enemies plus greater resources equals need for greater flexibility.
And to point to a specific example, Thorned Namsiel was able to go right through Harry's shield using variances in magical "frequency" (in SmF). It was an impressive bit of Evocation there because it was done on the Fly, but if that shield were common enough to be a majority approach, the Counter spell would become equally more common. Wizards' powers are based on Preparation, and so their defense against it is a balance of Surprise and Secrets, or else you've given your enemies all they need to do said Preparation.
I think a better analogy for spells is Cyber-security rather than physical weaponry, where there is always an implicit functional Secret that must be maintained.
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Wizards' powers are based on Preparation, and so their defense against it is a balance of Surprise and Secrets, or else you've given your enemies all they need to do said Preparation.
Yeah, among the biggest reasons a standardized Warden kit won't happen is that the average wizard has the mindset of, "I'm not going to tell you what I can do, just in case I have to use it against you."
I think there's WOJ that that's the reason Harry's never told anyone Nicodemus's weakness -- if he ever gets the noose, he doesn't want everyone to know how to kill him with it.
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Yeah, among the biggest reasons a standardized Warden kit won't happen is that the average wizard has the mindset of, "I'm not going to tell you what I can do, just in case I have to use it against you."
I think there's WOJ that that's the reason Harry's never told anyone Nicodemus's weakness -- if he ever gets the noose, he doesn't want everyone to know how to kill him with it.
I was picturing the more altruistic "If I tell you what I can do You or somebody you tell will have plenty of time to Counter it." But ya, that too. :P
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This is a valid point, but I think you take it too far. After all, nobody says police should avoid wearing Kevlar simply because criminals would "expect it" and counter it. It helps often enough that it is worthwhile making standard equipment for police operating in dangerous areas/missions.
Nobody is saying that equipment makes the warden. Each warden is primarily going to rely on their own personal (and individualistic) magic. However, some needs are very standard. Every warden will be attacked by physical weapons (bullets, blades, claws). Issuing each warden a standard form of protection vs this very common risk makes sense. It is certainly not going to be the only defense a warden has. But it is something that every warden will find useful and it can easily save a lot of warden lives.
For example -- harry has his shield bracelet and his duster. The duster would be the equipment that sometimes saves his life, but the shield bracelet is his personal defense and the item that saves his life more often. The duster would be the example of "issued equipment" as it is very general purpose and unintelligent. It requires no interaction with the wizard. We have seen other examples of such devices like in the duel with the White court vamps where one had a item to protect against magic.
Other devices cannot be made by others. For Harry, the bracelet is far more flexible, but has to be created by Harry as it is really just focusing his own personal magic.
All I am arguing is that it makes sense for the White Council to issue "some" magical equipment to each warden. We have not seen evidence of this (as of yet), but it makes sense.
It sounds like what you're suggesting is that there be more spells laid in to the cloak. Along with the "doesn't stain with blood" spell, you'd add spells like those on Harry's duster, and fashion them in a way that the "refresh" was handled by simple magical power being poured into it. Spells that would accept magical energy in a certain way that novices could do, and use it to recharge.
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However, some needs are very standard. Every warden will be attacked by physical weapons (bullets, blades, claws). Issuing each warden a standard form of protection vs this very common risk makes sense.
I'm not sure I agree with this statement. The main purpose of the wardens isn't to fight wars against other Accord nations: it's to police against warlocks who break the 7 Laws. From what we've seen, most often warlocks are equipped with magic and little else. From that perspective, the Council already used to issue wardens the ideal tool for their job: spell-breaking swords. Shame that the artisan who fashioned them is currently indisposed.
Kevlar is a tool against guns, and the swords were tools against warlocks. Presumably, the Brute Squad at Archangel had superior equipment, since they were the actual equivalent to the military for the Council, before their untimely demise.
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Wardens are known for 2 things, their cloaks and the swords. Most of the attention goes straight to the sword, so the cloak is likely for the more subtle magics, those not that readily apparent.
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Wardens are known for 2 things, their cloaks and the swords. Most of the attention goes straight to the sword, so the cloak is likely for the more subtle magics, those not that readily apparent.
Green/grey hides blood, plus blends by distorting sharp edges/outlines from color variances.
Aaaannnd the Wardens wear grey cloaks, work for the white council and fight black magic. Not a coincidence, no?
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That's because Kevlar is the only stop in town for armor against modern weapons; which are all basically just guns. If there were qualitatively distinct armor options (say magnetic/energy armor vs physical) or if other weapons were more common (say Flamethrowers) then the arguments might be comparable.
Sure we do. We can equip police with leather jackets, steel breastplates, shields, helmets, and all sorts of things. We do not because these items are either rarely useful or suffer major liabilities. For a similar reasons, I would not see wardens being routinely equipped with anti-ghost charms, mind shields, salve to see through fey illusions or any number of specialized defenses or attacks. But common attacks – especially non-magical attacks - or common tools are something that can be easily incorporated. That is why cops are often issued batans. Not because they are the primary weapon, but because it is a simple tool that is often useful. That is the type of magical equipment I expected the council to issue.
But who's to say that Harry's brand of Shield that is a force-wall is universally superior enough to Carlos' Entropy-based shield to the point where all wardens should standardize to that method. His Duster has been pounded through an awful lot.
I suggested general purpose items that provide passive defense or some other useful non-combat function make a lot of sense. Foci of any sort are very specific to the mage and it would be tough to make one for another that would be super efficient. Harry might be able to use Eb’s staff as Eb trained him, but not as effectively as his own staff. Using the Merlin’s staff would be even less effective. The point of issued equipment is that it works no matter the specific strengths of the wizard vs common threats/use cases. It is a supplement, not a replacement for the wizards magical abilities.
There is also the matter of the Burden of Upkeep. Per WOJ the vast majority of Harry's time goes to basic maintenance on each of his gizmos, or they eventually get worn down by the sunrises and need to be re-enchanted. Each item that is Standard Issue is one more timesink for each warden, translating to one less item of personal/optomized usage they can maintain themselves, or less time they can actually be doing the Job of a Warden.
Upkeep is the cost of all magic items. It does not matter who creates. Upkeep certainly limits how many items a wizard can have, but making sure wardens have a small number of very well made general purpose items can easily save lives – and the warden can keep the maintenance going. And if the warden does not want it, he can give it back. Very experienced wardens probably have only their own self created gear, but younger wardens would really benefit from issued gear.
And to point to a specific example, Thorned Namsiel was able to go right through Harry's shield using variances in magical "frequency" (in SmF).
And I think that Kevlar vest will do diddly against a marine sniper rifle. That is not an argument against wearing Kevlar as very few people pack marine sniper rifles. Denarians are major league threats and few wardens would be easy going against any one of them. Even if they did, the general purpose defense provided by the council would be only one of their defenses – and not the most important one.
Standard equipment is a supplement that provides a minimum baseline of capability. It is not a replacement for what the wizard can do and would never be the primary element in a wizard’s arsenal. But this solid baseline can often make the difference between success and death/serious injury fro common situations. Equally important (not just defense), common equipment can allow wardens to more easily work together, communicate, or effectively deal with issues outside their personal strengths.
I'm not sure I agree with this statement. The main purpose of the wardens isn't to fight wars against other Accord nations: it's to police against warlocks who break the 7 Laws.
The White Council has had multiple wars and conflicts with other supernatural powers --- in the books we have seen them go to town against Formor, Rakashashas, references to several vampire wars, and vague references that indicate that wars are not uncommon among the supernatural set. And all these bad guys use various non-magical threats along with any magic they can do. The reality is that the wardens have probably been in many small conflicts, minor wars and several major wars in the last century or two. They may exist to enforce the laws, but they are also a military force and are routinely expected to fight as such.
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Wish I had seen this thread before I made the one I just made on guns.
What I would like to know is why the wardens dont standardize even non-magical gear. Wardens are often deployed to situations where max firepower is needed.
Why is there no standard assault rifle and or side arm?
What about helmets and armor?
Basically I see no reason why a set of wardens shouldn't just look like Delta force with magic. We know they use guns because they are superior to magic in many circumstances. Why not go all the way?
Plus everyone could magically enchant said items as they see fit.
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Sure we do. We can equip police with leather jackets, steel breastplates, shields, helmets, and all sorts of things. We do not because these items are either rarely useful or suffer major liabilities. For a similar reasons, I would not see wardens being routinely equipped with anti-ghost charms, mind shields, salve to see through fey illusions or any number of specialized defenses or attacks. But common attacks – especially non-magical attacks - or common tools are something that can be easily incorporated. That is why cops are often issued batans. Not because they are the primary weapon, but because it is a simple tool that is often useful. That is the type of magical equipment I expected the council to issue.
I suggested general purpose items that provide passive defense or some other useful non-combat function make a lot of sense. Foci of any sort are very specific to the mage and it would be tough to make one for another that would be super efficient. Harry might be able to use Eb’s staff as Eb trained him, but not as effectively as his own staff. Using the Merlin’s staff would be even less effective. The point of issued equipment is that it works no matter the specific strengths of the wizard vs common threats/use cases. It is a supplement, not a replacement for the wizards magical abilities.
Upkeep is the cost of all magic items. It does not matter who creates. Upkeep certainly limits how many items a wizard can have, but making sure wardens have a small number of very well made general purpose items can easily save lives – and the warden can keep the maintenance going. And if the warden does not want it, he can give it back. Very experienced wardens probably have only their own self created gear, but younger wardens would really benefit from issued gear.
And I think that Kevlar vest will do diddly against a marine sniper rifle. That is not an argument against wearing Kevlar as very few people pack marine sniper rifles. Denarians are major league threats and few wardens would be easy going against any one of them. Even if they did, the general purpose defense provided by the council would be only one of their defenses – and not the most important one.
Standard equipment is a supplement that provides a minimum baseline of capability. It is not a replacement for what the wizard can do and would never be the primary element in a wizard’s arsenal. But this solid baseline can often make the difference between success and death/serious injury fro common situations. Equally important (not just defense), common equipment can allow wardens to more easily work together, communicate, or effectively deal with issues outside their personal strengths.
The White Council has had multiple wars and conflicts with other supernatural powers --- in the books we have seen them go to town against Formor, Rakashashas, references to several vampire wars, and vague references that indicate that wars are not uncommon among the supernatural set. And all these bad guys use various non-magical threats along with any magic they can do. The reality is that the wardens have probably been in many small conflicts, minor wars and several major wars in the last century or two. They may exist to enforce the laws, but they are also a military force and are routinely expected to fight as such.
I think I am in agreeance on most of this, just look at my below post.
One caveat though that I think actually support your argument.
The standard issue armor the US army uses will absolutely stop a "sniper" round. If by sniper round you mean the 7.62 NATO or similar used by most "sniper" rifles. Soft Level 3 kevlar will stop any pistol round more or less, and the SAPI plate inserts will stop armored piercing full size rifle rounds, at least once if not several times.
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Fair amount by hobby expenditure standards, absolutely. Fair amount as in equivalent to the Salary of a Full-time Job (even setting aside Hazard Pay), I still think Not Even Close.
Dude. Have you looked at how much Warhammer pewter minis cost. Now remove the mass production stuff that reduces costs. And make each mold unique. A few square miles of chicago would require more than a thousand hand crafted unique very detailed molds. Each one with shipping costs that are not offset by mass production. Little Chicago is in the 6 digit price range. If anything Jim underestimated the cost pre-3d printing.
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Wardens after Jim gives them the necessary standard gear for heavy operations:
Helmet enchanted against mind control. 3 in 1 blasting rod/staff/assault rifle. AT-4 for dealing with Mab. Eyepro to protect against soul gaze.
(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/us-army-soldier-stands-guard-stocktrek-images.jpg)
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Wish I had seen this thread before I made the one I just made on guns.
What I would like to know is why the wardens dont standardize even non-magical gear. Wardens are often deployed to situations where max firepower is needed.
Why is there no standard assault rifle and or side arm?
What about helmets and armor?
Basically I see no reason why a set of wardens shouldn't just look like Delta force with magic. We know they use guns because they are superior to magic in many circumstances. Why not go all the way?
Plus everyone could magically enchant said items as they see fit.
We haven't seen much of the new guard in action. With most of the older wardens dead, it opens an opportunity for Carlos and his Young guns to bring a modern mentality to the group.
I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing updates to their methodology. Even if they're selfmade, we could see Carlos and Co. wearing spell-worked leathers beneath their cloaks, shoulder holsters with enhanced hand guns, and gear belts with anything they could need.
Wardens after Jim gives them the necessary standard gear for heavy operations:
Helmet enchanted against mind control. 3 in 1 blasting rod/staff/assault rifle. AT-4 for dealing with Mab.
(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/us-army-soldier-stands-guard-stocktrek-images.jpg)
Seems more likely for Harry to be surprised to find a room of wardens wearing these. And Carlos would take the opportunity to point out that he made Harry's style look good.
(http://www.punkraveshop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/y/-/y-712-6_1.jpg)
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We haven't seen much of the new guard in action. With most of the older wardens dead, it opens an opportunity for Carlos and his Young guns to bring a modern mentality to the group.
I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing updates to their methodology. Even if they're selfmade, we could see Carlos and Co. wearing spell-worked leathers beneath their cloaks, shoulder holsters with enhanced hand guns, and gear belts with anything they could need.Seems more likely for Harry to be surprised to find a room of wardens wearing these. And Carlos would take the opportunity to point out that he made Harry's style look good.
(http://www.punkraveshop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/y/-/y-712-6_1.jpg)
The cloak looks good too. Definitely more appropriate for operations where you dont want everyone to notice you. At the very least they need more assault rifles though. I think Marcone has had the right idea about that from day 1.
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The cloak looks good too. Definitely more appropriate for operations where you dont want everyone to notice you. At the very least they need more assault rifles though. I think Marcone has had the right idea about that from day 1.
It'd be an interesting twist, to have the young wardens modeling themselves after a man the old guard distrusted.
The thing is, we know JB likes the button/vest look, considering he did a similar look for Grimm in the Cinder Spires...
He wore his uniform was cut and designed identical to the Fleet uniform, accept that the leathers are jet black instead of blue and trimmed in blood red instead of gold. There were two broad stripes at the end of each sleeve—indicating rank of captain—and skull-shaped buttons.
And then proceeded to make the outfit for himself.
(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/cinder-spires/images/5/50/Grimm1_%281_of_1%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151030141054)
There's even a version with red trim. Maybe have regional commanders have such distinctions.
(http://www.punkraveshop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/555x694/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/y/-/y-712-8.jpg)
(http://www.punkraveshop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/555x694/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/y/-/y-712-6.jpg)
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It'd be an interesting twist, to have the young wardens modeling themselves after a man the old guard distrusted.
The thing is, we know JB likes the button/vest look, considering he did a similar look for Grimm in the Cinder Spires... And then proceeded to make the outfit for himself.
(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/cinder-spires/images/5/50/Grimm1_%281_of_1%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151030141054)
There's even a version with red trim. Maybe have regional commanders have such distinctions.
(http://www.punkraveshop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/555x694/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/y/-/y-712-8.jpg)
(http://www.punkraveshop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/555x694/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/y/-/y-712-6.jpg)
If Im not mistaken, He said at one point that it was the other way around: Grimm was written to match a cosplay he already had. ;D
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Folks, don't you think the Wardens would use more standardized gear if it was practical and actually better than the alternative? They have to be practical about things like that or they wouldn't survive. A loopy wizard never leaving his highly warded cold tower can get away with being, well, a bit loopy, but the Wardens don't.
btw: I'd bet that the baby Wardens initially received some help such as ready-made potions, cloaks with protections on them and the like. Maybe they still use it, maybe they've figured out how to make stuff that suits them better in the meantime. We don't know.
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Veteran Wardens sat on either side of Ancient Mai, dour in their grey cloaks, and three more were sitting or crouching elsewhere in the boat—all of them from the hard-bitten squad that had been on standby back in Edinburgh. They were all armed to the teeth, and their expressions meant business.
[...]
Each individual wizard has his own particular quirks when it comes to how he uses his power. There is no industrial standard for how fire is evoked into use in battle. One of the Wardens coming up behind me sent forth a stream of tiny stars that slewed through the night like machine-gun fire, effortlessly burning holes through trees, rocks, and grey men with equal disdain. Another sent a stream of fire up in a high arc, and it crashed down among several grey men, splashing and clinging to any moving thing it struck like napalm. Lances of scarlet and blue and green fire burned through the air, reminding me for a mad
moment of a scene from a Star Wars movie. Steam hissed and snarled everywhere, as a swath of woodland forty yards across and half as deep vanished into light and fury.
Hell’s bells. I mean, I’d seen Wardens at work before, but it had all been fairly precise, controlled work. This was pure destruction, wholesale, industrial-strength, and the heat of it was so intense that it sucked the air out of my lungs.
Dresden doesn't go into details, but it does appear as though Wardens do have their equivalent to SWAT gear. We just don't know what it is, and from the passages above, it does appear as though the Council favors customization.
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Dresden doesn't go into details, but it does appear as though Wardens do have their equivalent to SWAT gear. We just don't know what it is, and from the passages above, it does appear as though the Council favors customization.
Armed to the teeth does not equal uniformed. The passage you cited below explicitly says there is no industrial standard (for fire evocation, but I think it can be generalized to the ways wizards fight). Look at it this way: Wizard A can create huge fireballs and wreak tremendous destruction for hours on end with them. Wizard B is an earth specialist who can create literal killer earth quakes. Both of them might also carry guns, maybe wizard B does, but wizard A thinks that the additional weight slows him down without adding much benefit to what he can do with his magic. They have both been Wardens for over a hundred years now. I'd assume they know very well why they made which choices about the weapons they carry and those they leave behind.
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Armed to the teeth does not equal uniformed. The passage you cited below explicitly says there is no industrial standard (for fire evocation, but I think it can be generalized to the ways wizards fight). Look at it this way: Wizard A can create huge fireballs and wreak tremendous destruction for hours on end with them. Wizard B is an earth specialist who can create literal killer earth quakes. Both of them might also carry guns, maybe wizard B does, but wizard A thinks that the additional weight slows him down without adding much benefit to what he can do with his magic. They have both been Wardens for over a hundred years now. I'd assume they know very well why they made which choices about the weapons they carry and those they leave behind.
Look at Dead Beat. Ramirez and the rest of the junior wardens are described as being armed with the same set of handguns and grenades.
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And Carlos would take the opportunity to point out that he made Harry's style look good
Totally true :)
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Look at Dead Beat. Ramirez and the rest of the junior wardens are described as being armed with the same set of handguns and grenades.
Luccio and Morgan didn't and Luccio's not the kind of person who doesn't keep up with the news.
If you want to have fun arguing that the more experienced persons on a job somehow know less about how to do it than the newbies, go ahead. I do not want to fall into that particular trap. :P
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Luccio and Morgan didn't and Luccio's not the kind of person who doesn't keep up with the news.
If you want to have fun arguing that the more experienced persons on a job somehow know less about how to do it than the newbies, go ahead. I do not want to fall into that particular trap. :P
It can happen, after all being Hidebound is a natural human thing and the Council as a whole has that reputation. But that would not be a danger under Luccio specifically, who is both far too practical for such nonsense and personally interested in modern technology enough to make a study of it.
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Luccio and Morgan didn't and Luccio's not the kind of person who doesn't keep up with the news.
If you want to have fun arguing that the more experienced persons on a job somehow know less about how to do it than the newbies, go ahead. I do not want to fall into that particular trap. :P
Not so much that they know less about how to do it, as two factors:
1. Luccio and Morgan are already two of the toughest battle wizards on the planet; they've been doing the job for centuries and decades, so they have enough confidence in their own martial abilities and probably don't feel they need guns (though if I'm not mistaken, Luccio is described as having a revolver at one point).
2. Ramirez and the others are untested newbies, so the guns and grenades are a crutch. They're simple, reliable technologies that they can use without effort in situations where their comparatively untested magic might be a liability.
On encountering a room full of Reds, Luccio would just be able to instantly fry them with a precision blast of fire since she's been doing it forever and knows exactly what to do in the heat of the moment. Fresh-out-of-boot Warden Yoshimo doesn't have that experience, so she can fall back on throwing a grenade into the room instead of making an attempt at magic.
There's also longevity to consider. Bear with me while I talk some RPG stuff.
Magic taxes mental resources. In the game, this is tracked with the stress track, and the TL;DR is, your average PC wizard can sling four or five spells in a single conflict before they start giving themselves serious mental damage (think Harry burning himself out in Fool Moon). There's a couple ways around this for extended fights for the average PC wizard
1. Enchanted items like Harry's rings, which store a spell and don't tax the wizard to use -- these take up character creation resources that are limited and have a cost to increase
2. Guns and mundane equipment -- these are effectively "free"
Now, older, more powerful wizards have access to other tricks -- the Paranet Papers adds Mental Toughness powers which, among other things, adds a bunch to the stress track.
With the highest level of that power (which someone like the Merlin or Ebenezer might have), a wizard can cast 10 spells before they start running out of juice.
So that's the difference, really -- for longevity purposes, someone at lower levels like Ramirez is going to go with guns as a "cheap" way to last more rounds in a fight without giving himself a crippling migraine, while someone like Luccio has built up enough mental strength they can just keep casting even after their younger comrades are tapped.
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Not so much that they know less about how to do it, as two factors:
1. Luccio and Morgan are already two of the toughest battle wizards on the planet; they've been doing the job for centuries and decades, so they have enough confidence in their own martial abilities and probably don't feel they need guns (though if I'm not mistaken, Luccio is described as having a revolver at one point).
2. Ramirez and the others are untested newbies, so the guns and grenades are a crutch. They're simple, reliable technologies that they can use without effort in situations where their comparatively untested magic might be a liability.
On encountering a room full of Reds, Luccio would just be able to instantly fry them with a precision blast of fire since she's been doing it forever and knows exactly what to do in the heat of the moment. Fresh-out-of-boot Warden Yoshimo doesn't have that experience, so she can fall back on throwing a grenade into the room instead of making an attempt at magic.
There's also longevity to consider. Bear with me while I talk some RPG stuff.
Magic taxes mental resources. In the game, this is tracked with the stress track, and the TL;DR is, your average PC wizard can sling four or five spells in a single conflict before they start giving themselves serious mental damage (think Harry burning himself out in Fool Moon). There's a couple ways around this for extended fights for the average PC wizard
1. Enchanted items like Harry's rings, which store a spell and don't tax the wizard to use -- these take up character creation resources that are limited and have a cost to increase
2. Guns and mundane equipment -- these are effectively "free"
Now, older, more powerful wizards have access to other tricks -- the Paranet Papers adds Mental Toughness powers which, among other things, adds a bunch to the stress track.
With the highest level of that power (which someone like the Merlin or Ebenezer might have), a wizard can cast 10 spells before they start running out of juice.
So that's the difference, really -- for longevity purposes, someone at lower levels like Ramirez is going to go with guns as a "cheap" way to last more rounds in a fight without giving himself a crippling migraine, while someone like Luccio has built up enough mental strength they can just keep casting even after their younger comrades are tapped.
I think I agree with most of this, but one caveat.
Guns in the DV are not a secondary option per-se. There are many tactical situations where their utility exceeds that of magic. I believe that Dresden straight up says this several times in the series in one way or another. Its also how someone like Murphy remains useful.
Firearms are generally much faster to engage than magic seemingly is. And as you said, they cost nothing to use. A magic spell is often times going to require alot of mental effort, and the same practitioner must also be making tactical decisions at the same time.
Bullets have the following advantages over "most" of the evocation we see in DV.
-Bullets reach the target faster. You can dodge a fireball, not a bullet.
-Bullets are more accurate for the above reason.
-Firearms are generally longer ranged.
-They do not give off magical warnings.
-They are faster to deploy and use. You can pull a trigger faster than you can do most magic.
Magic appears to have the following advantages:
-Raw destructive power. No bullet is going to blow a werewolf out the back of a police station and down the street.
-Defensive magic, like the duster or kinetic shieds.
-General magical utility spells. This category is so large I cant define it well. But think veils, lock picking, tracking spells etc.
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Mr. Death, I completely agree with you, that's what I've been trying to say in fact. ;D
Shift8, your argument is only true to a degree. The Wardens fight beings who simply aren't affected that much by bullets (or maybe bombs). Think about Marcone's defenses in Even Hand. Guns and bombs are useful. Just not always. And there is a reason that older wizards seem to prefer other weapons. In the case of Luccio, we now know from "A fistful of Warlocks" that she used to carry guns and considered herself to be a good markswoman. I think it's likely that she still carries one (or even more), as might other old Wardens. They just don't seem to use them that much.
What the Council really should think about is not equipping the wizards like modern special forces. It's working together with modern special forces. The way Harry and Murphy do all the time. Harry does the wizarding - which means in practice that he provides the defense most of the time - and Murphy shoots.
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I think I agree with most of this, but one caveat.
Guns in the DV are not a secondary option per-se. There are many tactical situations where their utility exceeds that of magic. I believe that Dresden straight up says this several times in the series in one way or another. Its also how someone like Murphy remains useful.
Firearms are generally much faster to engage than magic seemingly is. And as you said, they cost nothing to use. A magic spell is often times going to require alot of mental effort, and the same practitioner must also be making tactical decisions at the same time.
Generally, perhaps, but refer to Harry's inner monologue as the duel starts in White Night -- a White Court vampire might be able to pull and fire a gun pretty fast, but Harry has his shield up at the speed of thought and is able to outdraw him.
The most practiced wizards can do that kind of thing on instinct and reflex, and can do more than a gun can (like fire their magic in an arc over cover, for instance).
Bullets have the following advantages over "most" of the evocation we see in DV.
-Bullets reach the target faster. You can dodge a fireball, not a bullet.
-Bullets are more accurate for the above reason.
-Firearms are generally longer ranged.
-They do not give off magical warnings.
-They are faster to deploy and use. You can pull a trigger faster than you can do most magic.
A fireball, perhaps. Other spells are nearly as instant -- like Harry's gravity spell. Yes, it took him a couple minutes to set up, but that's because Earth isn't one of his man elements. Someone who specialized in Earth magic could pull it off at the speed of thought.
Magic appears to have the following advantages:
-Raw destructive power. No bullet is going to blow a werewolf out the back of a police station and down the street.
-Defensive magic, like the duster or kinetic shieds.
-General magical utility spells. This category is so large I cant define it well. But think veils, lock picking, tracking spells etc.
Yeah, bullets are good, but they literally only do one thing. Magic can do more or less anything the spell-slinger can come up with at the given time.
Mr. Death, I completely agree with you, that's what I've been trying to say in fact. ;D
Shift8, your argument is only true to a degree. The Wardens fight beings who simply aren't affected that much by bullets (or maybe bombs). Think about Marcone's defenses in Even Hand. Guns and bombs are useful. Just not always. And there is a reason that older wizards seem to prefer other weapons. In the case of Luccio, we now know from "A fistful of Warlocks" that she used to carry guns and considered herself to be a good markswoman. I think it's likely that she still carries one (or even more), as might other old Wardens. They just don't seem to use them that much.
What the Council really should think about is not equipping the wizards like modern special forces. It's working together with modern special forces. The way Harry and Murphy do all the time. Harry does the wizarding - which means in practice that he provides the defense most of the time - and Murphy shoots.
While guns might not be able to do the kind of damage magic and superpowers can, they are at least potent as a symbol. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, but one of the RPG books has a paragraph about how when guns come out, it sends the message that whoever's involved is willing to use lethal force and that gets everyone's attention, even the people who are effectively bulletproof.
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Generally, perhaps, but refer to Harry's inner monologue as the duel starts in White Night -- a White Court vampire might be able to pull and fire a gun pretty fast, but Harry has his shield up at the speed of thought and is able to outdraw him.
The most practiced wizards can do that kind of thing on instinct and reflex, and can do more than a gun can (like fire their magic in an arc over cover, for instance).
A fireball, perhaps. Other spells are nearly as instant -- like Harry's gravity spell. Yes, it took him a couple minutes to set up, but that's because Earth isn't one of his man elements. Someone who specialized in Earth magic could pull it off at the speed of thought.
Yeah, bullets are good, but they literally only do one thing. Magic can do more or less anything the spell-slinger can come up with at the given time.
While guns might not be able to do the kind of damage magic and superpowers can, they are at least potent as a symbol. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, but one of the RPG books has a paragraph about how when guns come out, it sends the message that whoever's involved is willing to use lethal force and that gets everyone's attention, even the people who are effectively bulletproof.
That is why I "many" tactical situations where guns are outright superior. Many, not all. Harry outright states quite a few times in the books in one manner or another that firearms are more useful than magic in many circumstances. It is also made pretty clear that this utility is what keeps mortals generally relevant, both from the general manner the plot unfolds and direct character statement.
Also most spells are not instant, and when they are, they are probably more mentally straining. Not just magically tiring. While the travel time of a spell might be instant in some cases, the mental time might not be. Once evocated, who knows. The question is how much mental time and effort does it take to cast the evocation or other spell. Even most well practiced spell will have a minimum time that cannot be exceeded. A gun is just a trigger pull. Sure, there might be some spells that are faster too, this dynamic might cut both ways depending. But its pretty clear from the combat in the books which way the pendulum seems to swing for most practitioners and most spells. Its not only the wizards that make this evident, but also their enemies, whose bulk use of firearms allows them to remain relevant and dangerous.
Just keep in mind the thing Harry said was most dangerous to him was sniper.
Quite frankly one of the best things about the DV is that technology is still quite relevant while magic remains quite powerful as well. Its what makes the DV fun for me. Magic + Guns. Yeah!
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Also, don't forget, as a magic user, using a gun keeps you clear of the Laws of Magic. Entangles you with the mortal authorities, but at least you won't have to worry about being taken out of a cell only to have your head chopped off.
I think Magic and firearms are both tools. Each has it's use. There is some overlap, and that's okay.