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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on July 14, 2020, 01:46:31 PM

Title: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 14, 2020, 01:46:31 PM
I have read it now, and by the time you have all finished it I imagine I will be asleep.

Spoilers below read at your own peril!!!

First things first. Oh. My. God.

Secondly, what was your favorite part? What did you like and dislike?

I really enjoyed some call backs to Harry's former cases. Things like old potions being used again was lovely. Also lots of great one liners.

Some truly incredible reveals as well.
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Anyway, thoughts? Feelings? Emotions?
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 14, 2020, 02:25:26 PM
Remember we are only half way through this story so there is a lot to go through, more twists and turns.

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: prince lotore on July 14, 2020, 02:34:41 PM
I have to say i enjoyed it a lot. That being said if there wasn't an other one coming out in 2 months i would be annoyed that this was a set up book. 
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Arjan on July 14, 2020, 03:02:48 PM
And for those who want her dead:

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 14, 2020, 03:37:09 PM
Yes, something AWFUL is bound to befall Karrin now.

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 14, 2020, 03:38:59 PM
Yuillegan I think you mean “First things first. Oh. My. Titan”.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Arjan on July 14, 2020, 05:29:07 PM
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 14, 2020, 05:52:30 PM
I had considered that, but what Harry really needs:-

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Con on July 14, 2020, 06:02:45 PM
Well I'm satisfied... for the moment.

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: tothePAIN on July 14, 2020, 06:41:41 PM
I have to say i enjoyed it a lot. That being said if there wasn't an other one coming out in 2 months i would be annoyed that this was a set up book.

This^^

I'm on the West Coast. Book arrived via Kindle at 9:30. Started reading, didn't stop until finished.  :D Love it, just feels like we're in the middle of one story right now.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 14, 2020, 07:28:19 PM
Butters

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 14, 2020, 07:39:27 PM
Butters

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  Didn't let it go through the wash?
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 14, 2020, 07:40:20 PM
I think
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 14, 2020, 07:52:29 PM
I think
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Well, we know she isn't, Jim already gave that away.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 14, 2020, 08:19:06 PM
“Isn’t” - which bit ?

Because if Jim revealed something contrary to ‘I think...’ then I missed it.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 14, 2020, 08:29:45 PM
“Isn’t” - which bit ?

Because if Jim revealed something contrary to ‘I think...’ then I missed it.

  Reread Christmas Eve

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Actually I don't think we can jump to any conclusions until the second book is out.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 14, 2020, 08:47:07 PM
Ah, I misunderstood your comment :)

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 14, 2020, 09:31:48 PM
Ah, I misunderstood your comment :)

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  I
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: cleoslemonade on July 14, 2020, 10:08:38 PM
With the grief that Harry has on Christmas Eve and him being in a happy relationship right now, it feels inevitable that Murphy's going to die. Which makes me booth dreading and looking forward to Battle Ground.

As for Peace Talks, I loved every scene, but in the end I felt really unsatisfied. There were so many Chekhov guns introduced that never went off/resolved (and will probably be coming into play in BG): Sanya's in town (flight delayed 7 times, LOL), lightsaber not cutting people, the Titan, Harry being kicked off the White Council, Ebeneezer's warning that Harry will be betrayed (he did kind of do that himself but I don't think that counts), why Thomas went assasin, Harry's conjuritis (which was almost done but I feel like isn't over yet), Rudolph's plot (does it even matter who he's working for at this point? The other fish to fry are so much bigger that it feels kind of irrelevant).

Some other ones, like the hint that Little Chicago survived, were subtle enough that it didn't bother me. I'd be fine with that not getting resolved for a few books; it's a nice teaser. Ditto with the favor that Harry owes Molly. That can be a long game.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 14, 2020, 10:23:55 PM
Mab may have allowed this to get the Accord powers to act as one and shake out blowhards like the Ghouls, she needs a working alliance for the BAT.

You know keeping the Lab mean’t the connection to Leas garden may have survived, protecting the BFS from the Never Never.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Wrane on July 14, 2020, 11:42:59 PM
First thoughts by subject

Molly's Favor
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BFS
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swords
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Thomas
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The senior council
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Lara
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Summer Court
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: cleoslemonade on July 15, 2020, 12:33:08 AM
A terrible thought:
The favor:
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 15, 2020, 01:24:56 AM
Am I the only one that feels like some characters were a little... off?  Different?  Not acting like themselves?
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: morriswalters on July 15, 2020, 01:49:18 AM
On what kind of pressure could make Thomas attempt to assassinate the Etri(is that right?). 
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Another point.
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Lara,
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Was Eb's wife killed by a White Vampire,
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 15, 2020, 02:05:11 AM
On what kind of pressure could make Thomas attempt to assassinate the Etri(is that right?). 
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Another point.
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Lara,
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Was Eb's wife killed by a White Vampire,
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 03:49:26 AM
As for why Thomas did it:

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: ClintACK on July 15, 2020, 04:59:00 AM
Justine
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 15, 2020, 06:14:29 AM
It would be a hell of a sucker punch if Eb was right about Thomas, Lara and co.

I think it's still fairly likely it was Lara who arranged the hit. I still don't know to what end but perhaps it was to keep Dresden distracted. It seems likely that if Thomas had wanted to kill Etri, Etri would be dead. So I think Thomas purposely screwed up the hit. I think it is plausible that Justine is actually not as nice as we thought. It often fools Dresden when there is a woman upset (especially a vulnerable one).

Morris -
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Grifter - I think you are correct about the characters being a little off. But they were essentially the same. Although Sanya seems to have gained about 40lbs of muscle. I swear he was much leaner in Death Masks. Harry, Eb, Carlos etc are all really about where they should be. Harry has been through so much. If he seems a bit cynical it's because he is. He has been through enough. But I wouldn't have said he was depressed. A bit stressed obviously. But he's in love. And he seemed to be enjoying his time with Murphy. I do think he feels a bit out of time. Part of that is getting older. Part of which was having a lost few years. Ebeneezer is really just revealing who he always was. That was a point made rather clearly. Harry, as people often do with their idols, saw him as superhuman. Carlos is different because life has made him so. I do wonder if Carlos will make it. What Molly did to him changed him.

Cleo - Scary theory! Harry would probably go to war though again for Maggie. Don't know how many more wars winter can fight. They currently have at least three on the go. I agree about the Chekhov's guns. But there will plenty of book to resolve them in the follow up. I think the Murphy thing is pretty obvious, has been for a while. Harry wouldn't cry over nothing. Also, not sure about the whole Little Chicago thing. But we'll see.

Wrane -
1. Molly's favor has been repaid. It was the ring. And the suit.
2. He might get his old home back. But I wouldn't be surprised if he chooses a more secure location. Remember he is staying at the Carpenters for Christmas. And clearly the BFS headquarters isn't.
3. Purpose of the Swords is to balance the Denarians. But the Knights also exist to fight evil etc. Michael killed a Dragon after all. And destroyed one of Mavra's nests. And many, many other monsters.
4. Probably most if not all of the Senior Council will die by the end. But in what order and how quickly is hard to say. Unless most of the Senior Wizards on the planet die I don't see how Chandler would get on the Senior Council. Would hardly need to call it that as there wouldn't be many left!
5. I disagree. Unless the favor is to Winter, it's Harry's favor. Mab gets no say. She could buy favors off Harry. But she would have to give him something of equal value. Or Harry could gift them to her in order to pay his debts. But there must always be balance, as that's the rule.
6. Interesting idea. But as currently Titania isn't even talking to Mab I don't see it happening. I wouldn't be surprised if Titania was actually working actively against Mab. Harry has all he needs to bind the Titan but he has to force her to the shores of Demonreach. Currently, I don't think he is capable of it. He would have to trick her...which might not be easy considering she likely doesn't view time quite the same way as Harry. She seems closer to the Mothers than Mab in power (although it's difficult to say if she is of their level...). But perhaps Mab and Titania will team up to force her there or keep her distracted. I doubt Harry will be able to bind the Titan easily.

Spaced Cowboy - I am surprised you read it so differently. It very much seemed to me that Mab is far from uber-powerful. In fact, Harry got a front row seat in a title fight in a weight class he hasn't seen. The only things stronger than Ethniu so far seem to be the Archangels and the Mothers. Possibly regular Angels...but we'll see. It would be quite the cop out if so. The only being at the Peace Talks stronger than Mab was Ferrovax (although I suspect even if Vadderung isn't outright stronger than Mab, he fights dirty. Like Harry). And all of the divine beings present were freaking terrified of Ethniu. King Corb was probably in the same league as Vadderung etc. But all of them were a weight class below Ethniu. Although, it seems Vadderung was once stronger even than her.

Remember, Mab herself is more like Vadderung as doesn't always fight straight forward (even when she can). Because she knows those fights are too easy to lose. She will find other ways to defeat the Last Titan.

Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 11:30:29 AM
As regards the faithsaber going through the wash

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 15, 2020, 12:00:08 PM
It very much seemed to me that Mab is far from uber-powerful. In fact, Harry got a front row seat in a title fight in a weight class he hasn't seen.
Mab, effectively a top tier Mage, goaded into acting more like her host than her mantle, in the middle of summer, took a direct hit from a Goddess/Titan, the tankiest of all Tanks, and was up and walking a few minutes later. 

Methinks she might have held her own a bit better under different circumstances.  Methinks Titania would have faired better, it being at the peak of her power and her feeding off emotion (which is her thing, not Mab's).  Instead, Mab got owned for a minute, and recovered in time to show everyone that she wasn't out of it. 
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Niall001 on July 15, 2020, 12:54:19 PM
Just finished this book. Is it just me or is it pretty clear that

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As for what happened to her, I don't know. Maybe Outsiders? Red Cap & Ace? Perhaps she has a coin?

I guess we'll find out.

Edit:

Also, Goodman Grey is never wrong.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 15, 2020, 01:00:48 PM
Quote
As for possibly having killed EB's wife... Maybe?  Although if so, Butcher could have said she looked guilty or ashamed or something.  The haunted thing seems more like she knows something, rather than being the one. Given the nature of the Court, it seems more likely that it was a male that was responsible.  And given EB's response to Margaret having Raith's kid... I mean, if he seduced her mom, too, that might drive a man insane.

That is one part I did read in my brief skimming mission in Barns and Noble.  What puzzles me is from Changes we know Eb had dinner with Margaret and Raith, that is how their blood connection was figured out.  So if Raith and Margaret were together, given what WCVs do, is Eb really so naive to think they didn't have relations?  Do we really believe he didn't know they were couple? Or that they might have had a child? 

It might not be that Raith seduced Eb's wife, more like Eb has never gotten over the fact that Raith killed his daughter and he was unable to kill or even damage him in return.  That would make for a lot of frustration.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 01:12:18 PM
Whampires are nearly sterile, they need to put it about A LOT to produce any progeny. The fact that Justine got pregnant despite precautions is significant.

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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 15, 2020, 01:55:20 PM
Whampires are nearly sterile, they need to put it about A LOT to produce any progeny. The fact that Justine got pregnant despite precautions is significant.

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  Another fact that Eb should have known.. 
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: dresden11 on July 15, 2020, 02:46:07 PM
So.  This was a good read to me.  But it was obviously very incomplete.  There is little to no payoff on every subject raised throughout the book.  My suggestion is to only read this book once Battlegrounds comes out.  Here is my review of it. 

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Overall, I enjoyed the book.  I read it in a few hours, and it was a fun read.  Butcher still has talent after a 6 or so year break in Dresden. There were a lot of small problems however.  Butcher's 6 year writing span really shows through in places.  I think they probably should have just made 1 book as Butcher originally intended because this book is incomplete, and it needs the next one to payoff all that it has promised.  Good thing Battlegrounds is out in a few months.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: morriswalters on July 15, 2020, 02:50:49 PM
The question of Mab's power has already been settled.  It has always been her command of her forces of Winter.  And this attack at the gates is a plot device Jim has used before to justify her not hitting back at the Reds. Power constrained.  It looks like he's pulled out the stops on that particular device. She will exercise her power through her Knight.  He will wield the the Sword in Destiny in her cause. Otherwise as a power up exclusively for Harry it's too soon.

@Yuillegan
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Jim just put Thomas on ice,  and the biggest threat to Justine is the baby.  Margaret survived, which suggests the possibility that she knew something about the child's demon and might have shielded herself in some manner. She at least knew enough to be able to block Raith's demon from feeding. Which suggests that there is a solution. Assuming of course that Jim wants there to be. Somebody has already suggested that there are some interesting similarities to Lea encased in ice to be cured of her affliction and Thomas being put in a crystal.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on July 15, 2020, 06:09:17 PM
Mab is ridiculously powerful by mortal standards, and fills a critical role in the universe. But we already knew that she's far from the strongest being out there - Dragons like Ferrovax and at least some gods are on par or stronger, and the Mothers and Archangels are clearly stronger.

Mab is the commander of the defense of one reality. Uriel operates across many realities.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: noblehunter on July 15, 2020, 06:36:18 PM
One big question I have is if Eb's obsessive hate for whamps is deliberate or an unintended result of ordinary conflicts. It'd be awfully handy for someone if the Blackstaff could be unhinged so easily. Hate makes people predictable.

I get the feeling that catching the Titan isn't going to be simple. If the plot had gone to Butcher's original plan, PT would have several more chapters where Harry suckers Ethniu to the lake shore and then dumps her in prison. That there was nearly another book's worth of content suggests Butcher and Harry couldn't make that plan work.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on July 15, 2020, 06:41:07 PM
One big question I have is if Eb's obsessive hate for whamps is deliberate or an unintended result of ordinary conflicts.

I think it's due to Maggie Sr (his daughter) being killed by Lord Raith's entropy curse.

I'm not sure that -- in general -- he hates them more than other monsters (he doesn't seem to believe/know that Whampires have free will). But when his family is involved, that's quite different.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 08:06:11 PM
I suspect they are going to have to lure Ethnui to the lakeshore by putting their resistance there, leading to deaths among the defenders, a deliberate ploy by Harry which would weigh heavily upon him.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: EBRIEN on July 16, 2020, 02:50:44 AM
I have read it now, and by the time you have all finished it I imagine I will be asleep.

Spoilers below read at your own peril!!!

First things first. Oh. My. God.

Secondly, what was your favorite part? What did you like and dislike?

I really enjoyed some call backs to Harry's former cases. Things like old potions being used again was lovely. Also lots of great one liners.

Some truly incredible reveals as well.
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Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 16, 2020, 03:01:08 AM
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I don't think they're necessarily twins.  That may just be the mantles conforming them.  Sarissa and Maeve were the suspected identical twins (which they protested) but now even Sarissa and Molly are apparently looking alike.

As for Morgan LeFay, she had two sisters.  Morgause and Elaine. Morgause is said to have died, while Elaine apparently led an unremarkable life. I'm not sure which which would be more likely to be Titania.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: forumghost on July 16, 2020, 03:08:04 AM
Jim could also be running the Vivienne/Morgan angle, they are often considered to be related if not the same being.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 16, 2020, 03:39:29 AM
Jim could also be running the Vivienne/Morgan angle, they are often considered to be related if not the same being.
Possibly.  Looking at the options, I'd lean towards Morgause.  Titania seemed to be scarred by history in Cold Days, where she talks about marrying for love.  Morgause was in an arranged marriage, (unkowingly) committed incest with Arthur and birthed Mordred, and was slain by her son for sleeping with another man.  Seems like the kind of thing that would make you bitter.  But if she died, it makes it harder for her to have been in a battlefield where she could receive the mantle, like is expected.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Bad Alias on July 16, 2020, 05:15:54 AM
Remember we are only half way through this story so there is a lot to go through, more twists and turns.

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2. Summoning circle, too.

1. Reading, I noticed Harry has another parallel with Merlin. I can't remember what it was. Maybe his relationship with Mab. Those parallels are stacking up.
2. Three of Harry's scariest enemies were mentioned as still being out there. Genowskwa, Mavra, and Nicodemus. Shagnasty is also still out there. Spiderman was mentioned, again. Jim's written a Spiderman novel. Are we two terrifying enemies away from a Sinister Six book?
3. I really want Harry to study under River Shoulders.
4. Was it just me, or was this the least supernaturally violent book in the series? I guess that means all the violence we were promised is going to be in Battle Ground. Regardless, I really enjoyed it.
5. Now that's how you get rid of a mentor without killing him.
6. We're going to have to live with "Murphy's going to die" theories until a) Murphy dies, b) the series ends.
7. Harry should have had Molly use his favor to be there with her when she fessed up to her parents instead of just offering to go. It's a cheat they would both appreciate.

I think
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+1

Yuillegan, if I recall correctly, Harry inner monologues about how Michael is big and strong and Harry needs to work out more. Then he inner monologues about how much more muscular Sanya is. I think this was in Small Favor. Harry owes Molly a favor for the suit and ring. Alfred doesn't say he needs to get the Titan to the shores of the island. He specifically said the shores of the lake. I remember because I wondered which shores he meant.

Niall001, my mind was screaming that Justine is deeply involved basically through the whole book.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: huangjimmy108 on July 16, 2020, 06:58:47 AM
I have read it now, and by the time you have all finished it I imagine I will be asleep.

Spoilers below read at your own peril!!!

First things first. Oh. My. God.

Secondly, what was your favorite part? What did you like and dislike?

I really enjoyed some call backs to Harry's former cases. Things like old potions being used again was lovely. Also lots of great one liners.

Some truly incredible reveals as well.
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Anyway, thoughts? Feelings? Emotions?

Okay...
Is Harry = Naruto now? Harry might as well learn the equivalent of sealing jutsu here. The similarities might be just a coincidence but it struck me just the same. With the mantle = to kyuubi, we just need sage mode to perfect the image.

Don't take the Tunguska thing seriously, the old Harry in book 6 and the current Harry is not the same person at all, and the information he can access is not even at the same level. Harry might just learn something new off screen. If Harry wanted to, he could review the inmates of demonreach and know all their secrets. That is knowledge and power at his fingertips. The price is heavy though, but Harry do have access to it. Just to show that what Harry know and mention in the last books as facts may not be correct.

Harry may not count his visit to the BFS building at the end of skin game as a real visit. If I remember correctly he enter that building, go straight to Marcone and Mab, do his business and get out. That visit is too short and abrupt so Harry might have discounted it in his mind.

EB is a bit out of control, but I suppose the pressure has gotten into him. Of course other abnormal causes may be at play, but the man has been holding the blackstaff for some years now, breaking the 7 laws of magic who knows how many times against his own morality and conscience. Even if the blackstaff can neutralize the taint, the ppsycological damage must be huge. So it does not surprise me if EB could be broken under the right circumstances.

I hope Murphy does not die, simply because we are nearing the end. The idea of torturing Harry should be lef behind. I want a happy ending for my favorite series. Thank you very much.

As for Thomas and some other mysteries, let's just wait for battleground. Like it or not Peace talks is just half of a book. The answer should appear in time.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 16, 2020, 07:15:09 AM
Up until recently, Bad Alias, Harry was always the tall skinny guy. He only really put on the mass when he got the mantle I think, and even so still seems to not be as big as someone who can lift what he can.
Totally agree about the Sinister Six thing.

Interesting ideas about the possible identity of Titania.

Dresden11 - Just because you dislike the portrayal of what happened to Mab doesn't mean it didn't happen. Mab got her ass kicked. Ethniu wasn't even trying to kill Mab because she didn't even consider her a threat. She was making a point. Mab isn't Winter, Mother Winter is Winter. Mab is out of her weight class with something like Ethniu. And I saw no evidence in the book that the comments that Corb made robbed her of her mantle's protection. Corb's comments were purely psychological tactics to try and rile her up and not see the sucker punch. Perhaps you missed the general message Mab has to all her creatures: if you get beaten it's your own fault. She wasn't prepared enough. Mab is certainly strong in magical raw power, but she is no Goddess. Often described as a demigod, she is several levels below something like Ethniu. Consider this - Ethniu masked her presence so that all those divine beings didn't even sense her. Molly could sense Vadderung just because he was in a bar near her (in Ghost Story) yet none of them sensed the massively powerful being that was about to walk through the door.

Jim has said Mab would be loathe to take Ferrovax head on (due to his sheer raw power). And Ferrovax was freaking terrified of Ethniu. Hell, he wasn't even prepared to throw down with Vadderung (who is quite possibly not even as strong as Mab in Vadderung guise - although I suspect he fights dirty, like Dresden). As Morris said, Mab's real power is her armies and connections. Her Queendom.  Mab's strong, but she's a long way from being the biggest bully on the playground.

Morris, great point. I completely agree that is the pertinent question. I would say Rashid falls into that category. There's a WOJ that Angels cannot be infected by Nemesis. But as for any other supernatural being - I think all bets are off. I think even the Mother's seemed wary. And I suspect Ethniu is nemfected. But perhaps apart from Angels, mortals have the best chance of resisting, provided they have the right protection. I suspect the Original Merlin (who Corb seems to have confirmed to be dead). Possibly Mai (I think she technically could have been born in the previous cycle). Not many others though...if any. Real question is how long Nemesis has been involved? It seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Firestarter on July 16, 2020, 08:55:54 AM
I am severly dissapointed by this book. It seems so... unfinished. Actually, no, let me rephrase that:It seems to have been reworked so many times and not finished.

Some of the characters all of a sudden don't act like themselves. Thomas? Fine, we'll have to wait for the conclusion of that one.

(click to show/hide)

And frankly, the preachy tone in some parts of the book feels... weird. There are ways how to work certain messaged into the dialogue without making them poke out an eye. It's why people in real life rarely get to make cool sentences that carry a deep message. Most people simply don't realize when to shut up and keep adding. That's precisely how the "important messages" in this book feel. And THIS is the part of reality Jim decided to incorporate into the story?

Seriously, I have no idea who's responsible for these changes having happened, but I hope the person will take a long vacation. A decade or two sound good.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: morriswalters on July 16, 2020, 12:38:29 PM
Well I'm in my second reading via audio book. I'm beginning to get the idea that Eb was betrayed by a lover or someone close, maybe Lara or one of her sisters. Some vampire got in close, within knife fighting range, and hurt Eb.  It may not have been intentional.  Lara drops some hints on how it could happened.  A vamp, maybe hurt, and acting on instinct. In any case maybe it will get clearer.

Also Jim seems to be telegraphing that River Shoulders could be the one that helps Harry to control the Winter Mantle.  Harry appears to have quite a bit of repressed rage not to mention some serious grand daddy issues. Anyway, ever onward.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Gigglestomp on July 16, 2020, 02:06:08 PM
I think it more likely Ebeneezer hates all vampires with special levels of dislike for the black and white courts.

We know he has past dealings with Mavra, and a way to track her / target her that he did not elaborate on during the raid on her scourge. For all we know Mavra is family. She could be his mother, or grandmother. She could even be an elder daughter of his. Ebeneezer is over 300 years old and Stoker's book was published 123 years ago in 1897. A wizard turned to the black court would have power with a capital P. I don't know if we can guess at her age, but we know she is more powerful  than the average black court vampire, shes a full wizard because of her ability to veil AND blow things up. The power could have helped her survive even if older members of the court were killed after the book. Maybe his mistakes with Mavra caused him to over-compensate with Maggie?

We know he has past dealings with the white court. Most of his hate for them seems to stem from Raith killing his daughter, which is understandable.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Bad Alias on July 16, 2020, 09:38:56 PM
Dresden11 - Just because you dislike the portrayal of what happened to Mab doesn't mean it didn't happen. Mab got her ass kicked. Ethniu wasn't even trying to kill Mab because she didn't even consider her a threat. She was making a point.
I'm not so sure the theory that Mab being emotional didn't suppress her mantle the way Harry being rational suppresses his is wrong. Ethniu was making a point. A point killing Mab would have put a fine point on. Why have Corb speak at all? It seemed that most of the members weren't paying any attention to her at first.

I suspect the Original Merlin (who Corb seems to have confirmed to be dead).
Jim confirmed he's dead. I'm not so sure that any particular person in the DF knows how he died or even that he did in fact die. Ebeneezer, who has Merlin's and his apprentice's journals doesn't know.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 16, 2020, 10:01:00 PM
Dresden11 - Just because you dislike the portrayal of what happened to Mab doesn't mean it didn't happen. Mab got her ass kicked. Ethniu wasn't even trying to kill Mab because she didn't even consider her a threat. She was making a point. Mab isn't Winter, Mother Winter is Winter. Mab is out of her weight class with something like Ethniu. And I saw no evidence in the book that the comments that Corb made robbed her of her mantle's protection. Corb's comments were purely psychological tactics to try and rile her up and not see the sucker punch. Perhaps you missed the general message Mab has to all her creatures: if you get beaten it's your own fault. She wasn't prepared enough. Mab is certainly strong in magical raw power, but she is no Goddess. Often described as a demigod, she is several levels below something like Ethniu. Consider this - Ethniu masked her presence so that all those divine beings didn't even sense her. Molly could sense Vadderung just because he was in a bar near her (in Ghost Story) yet none of them sensed the massively powerful being that was about to walk through the door.

Jim has said Mab would be loathe to take Ferrovax head on (due to his sheer raw power). And Ferrovax was freaking terrified of Ethniu. Hell, he wasn't even prepared to throw down with Vadderung (who is quite possibly not even as strong as Mab in Vadderung guise - although I suspect he fights dirty, like Dresden). As Morris said, Mab's real power is her armies and connections. Her Queendom.  Mab's strong, but she's a long way from being the biggest bully on the playground.

I'm not so sure the theory that Mab being emotional didn't suppress her mantle the way Harry being rational suppresses his is wrong. Ethniu was making a point. A point killing Mab would have put a fine point on. Why have Corb speak at all? It seemed that most of the members weren't paying any attention to her at first.
I think there can still be a middle ground here, where we can acknowledge that Ethniu's power and skillset exceeds Mab's in certain ways, but it doesn't mean they're in different classes.

Mab is weakest in mid-summer, and this occurred in July.  Mab is limited on Earth, because her power unrestrained warps reality.  Mab was passionate, which is the opposite of her way, per Titania in Cold Days. Mab can't act directly on Earth without inviting an equal reaction from Titania. Mab's power is elemental and not brute physical.

Ethniu being a tank that is powered up with a bonus power armor and eye with no known limitations on her use of power in reality... If she didn't mop the floor with Mab, she would have been laughed out of the room.

I think saying Ethniu is out of Mab's league because she laid her out with a single hit is like saying the Genowska is out of Harry's league because he laid him out with a single hit. Harry bounced up quicker than Mab, but I think the circumstances were very similar.  Mab likely would have bounced back quicker if it'd mattered, or if it were earlier in the year, or she weren't acting so humanly passionate.

It was a sucker punch. And we have every reason to believe that one could beat the other in certain circumstances.  Ethniu could likely burn Mab right out of her host with that eye of hers, and Mab could likely freeze Ethniu's blood in mid-Winter in the Never-never.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on July 16, 2020, 10:15:18 PM
Also, I'm not sure Ethniu not trying to kill Mab was because Mab was no threat... it might just as well be because she couldn't. Even if Ethniu is vastly more powerful, that doesn't mean she could kill Mab. Mab is an Immortal, and it's not Halloween, and the Stone Table wasn't involved.

And even if she could... the goal was to demonstrate Mab's inability to hold her Accords together. Killing her might actually be counterproductive to the political goal, because then you get a new Winter Queen who is less of a known quantity/less predictable (even if somewhat less effective at the beginning).

And yeah, Mab on Earth in summer is not going to be at her best. Still horrifically powerful by mortal standards, but not the strongest being in that room even before Ethniu walked in (Jim said years ago that Ferrovax could defeat Mab outside of Faerie).
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Gnomoleon on July 16, 2020, 10:20:14 PM
Ok .... What happened to Mister? Did I miss something?
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 16, 2020, 11:49:17 PM
Ok .... What happened to Mister? Did I miss something?
What do you mean?  Mister was living with Harry and Maggie, and they took him to the Carpenters' house.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: pcpoet on July 17, 2020, 01:06:12 AM
mister was living at murphy's house3 last I heard,
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 17, 2020, 01:25:30 AM
mister was living at murphy's house3 last I heard,
Until Peace Talks.  Assuming everyone here has read it...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: ClintACK on July 17, 2020, 03:23:52 AM
Re: Mister...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Bad Alias on July 17, 2020, 05:41:42 PM
I think there can still be a middle ground here, where we can acknowledge that Ethniu's power and skillset exceeds Mab's in certain ways, but it doesn't mean they're in different classes...

It was a sucker punch.
I agree with all of this. Even the part I ellipsied over. I don't think Ethniu has Mab as outclassed as we (and the Accorded members present) are meant to think. I think that was the point of everything we saw. That could be the reason the talks were called for when the were. If Ethniu really did have such power, why not just kill Mab in front of everyone?

I want to be clear that I'm not saying Ethniu is a weakling that no one needs to worry about, but if she were all powerful, why has she been hiding in the ocean for 1,000 years or however long?
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Grifter on July 17, 2020, 06:13:41 PM
I want to be clear that I'm not saying Ethniu is a weakling that no one needs to worry about, but if she were all powerful, why has she been hiding in the ocean for 1,000 years or however long?
Side quests?  :P

But seriously, she might have had to work to get her dad's eye and that armor.  And since we know at least some power comes from worship, she might have had to wait for her dad to be used in video games, or for Cyclops to become a more popular X-Men character.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Second Aristh on July 17, 2020, 06:24:25 PM
I don't really buy that Mab's mantle somehow slipped.  I think Ethniu really is a heavyweight.  Just look at her handling Ferrovax:
Quote
The goddess walked forward, staring down at Marcone.  She circled him, shaking her head in judgement--and still no one moved.  She pointed a finger at Ferrovax without looking at him and said, "Introduce me to this ephemeral."
For a few seconds there was silence.  Then Ferrovax spoke in a ragged voice that sounded like it was being dragged out through his teeth.  "This is Ethniu.  Daughter of Balor.  The Last Titan."
Ethniu lowered her pointing finger.  Ferrovax gasped and staggered, putting a hand on the back of his chair to balance himself as he breathed heavily.

That being said, Ethniu came fully armored with a legendary artifact against Mab's party dress.  I could buy that the Titanic bronze could have some effects that hid from Mab exactly how threatening that Ethniu was before revealing herself.  Her kick through the wall was clearly a sucker punch against Mab's passive defenses.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: raidem on July 17, 2020, 09:13:57 PM
I wonder if HWWBehind, HWWBefore and the other outsider knight are part of the same being from the outside.  In order to kill all three you are going to have to kill their puppeteer.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 17, 2020, 09:49:35 PM
I don't really buy that Mab's mantle somehow slipped.  I think Ethniu really is a heavyweight.  Just look at her handling Ferrovax:
That being said, Ethniu came fully armored with a legendary artifact against Mab's party dress.  I could buy that the Titanic bronze could have some effects that hid from Mab exactly how threatening that Ethniu was before revealing herself.  Her kick through the wall was clearly a sucker punch against Mab's passive defenses.

She might have had a little iron thrown in for good measure.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Avernite on July 17, 2020, 10:16:48 PM
The whole entrance thing made me wonder if the Fomor are stupid, or just nemfected.

If there's one thing the current crop of powers is good at, it's cloak-and-dagger, sure... but the way to fight that is not to unite them all in a full-on slugfest. It's to chip away at one of them, show them weak, and then move on to the next. Suckerpunching Mab? Smart. Telling them all straight up to do their worst or slink over to side new-guys? Not smart. Marcone was needed to keep it together, because like a good mortal he defies anything, but still...

Or, of course, Ethniu is the distraction, and knows it, but gambles she'll thrive through it all anyway.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 18, 2020, 10:41:47 AM
I work on the view that Mab went along the sucker punch as it achieved her ends, uniting the Accords members and shaking out fairweather members such as Ghouls. Remember that The Red Court are gone and the Denarians have left the Accords, the White Court are better behaved under Lara rather than her Papa, all due at least in part to Harry, and again because of Harry the Bigfeet are joining. Mab has been manipulating events and Harry to turn the Accords into a proper alliance for years. I don’t believe she stopped having been punched through two walls, she immediately turned it to her advantage, she knows unlike the Accord Members or the Fomor of Harry’s Armoury and relationship to Demonreach  she helped set it up for just this circumstance. That’s her ‘ counter sucker punch’
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: magnuskn on July 18, 2020, 12:35:36 PM
I just finished the book. Got it on Thursday and had work and social commitments until today, so I am days late to the discussion. Ugh. Most things already have been recounted, so just a few things:

- The book obviously is incomplete and ended kind of out of nowhere. It's too bad that Jim still is not in the top tier of writers who can just make his publisher bring out a novel at whatever length he decides to (i.e. GRRM).
- Jim kinda went the professional wrestling route of making Ethniu a real threat, i.e. he made one of the top wrestlers job to her, so that she is instantly put over as a threat. I hope he puts some serious character work on her in Battle Grounds, so that there is less of a "villain of the week" feeling to her.
- Obviously things have been left completely hanging with multiple plot threads (i.e. the feds being after Murphy, the council vote). This book really should have just been Peace Talks Part One, the next book doesn't really deserve its own title. It's just the second part of the same book.
- I am very happy with Harry and Murphy, but at this point it seems to me to be pretty obvious that Murphy is going Valkyrie very soon'ish, with Freydis just hovering over her and Harry. Of course I could be reading things I want into the situation, so who knows?
- There were multiple moments where I went "Aaaaah, just stop and talk to the people, Harry!" Ivy, Sarissa, Fix. I really wanted those conversations to happen. And I am quite unhappy that the Merlin hasn't shown up, I really wanted that conversation between Harry and him.

I am overall quite happy with the book, but feel left hanging quite a bit in the middle of a plot. It's only two months, but until we get the next one, it's difficult to really judge this part, because it's one single story.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 18, 2020, 04:55:08 PM
Quote
- The book obviously is incomplete and ended kind of out of nowhere. It's too bad that Jim still is not in the top tier of writers who can just make his publisher bring out a novel at whatever length he decides to (i.e. GRRM).

They didn't put any limits on his past books..
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: magnuskn on July 18, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
They didn't put any limits on his past books..

He was pretty explicit in the interview/Q&A where he announced Battle Grounds, that the original Peace Talks was too big for his publisher and would have been very expensive as books go, so he split the book and expanded both halves of the story.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Second Aristh on July 18, 2020, 05:10:15 PM
Yeah, Jim talked about that conversation with his publisher.  To get PT/BG out as a single book would have put the price over $50 for a hardcover, and he didn't want to do that. 

I would imagine not having the machinery to publish hardcovers that thick and having to subcontract them out would be pretty expensive.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 18, 2020, 07:54:17 PM
Yeah, Jim talked about that conversation with his publisher.  To get PT/BG out as a single book would have put the price over $50 for a hardcover, and he didn't want to do that. 

I would imagine not having the machinery to publish hardcovers that thick and having to subcontract them out would be pretty expensive.

The cost of publishing really must have gone up because Cold Days was over five hundred pages and the cover price was the same as Peace Talks approx $28.00.  Skin Game was four hundred and fifty pages, cover price cost roughly the same as Peace Talks $29.00..   I bought a Diana Gabaldon book from the Outlander series, over 800 pages for $35.00..  If Battle Ground four hundred and fifty pages for the cover price of $28.00, the total for the two books is $56.00!  Not to mention shipping, taxes, etc...  So my friends which would have served us better?  One longer more satisfying book that is a little more expensive or two shorter ones that in the long run we are paying more money for and are less satisfied?

Also since a lot of us purchase the book from Amazon or Kindle, we never pay the full price anyway..
When they were done discounting Peace Talks I think I was charged around $14.00 more or less, and roughly the same for Battle Ground..  The only way you pay full price is if you buy it from Barns and Noble or another bookstore, but if you belong to one of their clubs you also pay less. 
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Second Aristh on July 18, 2020, 08:49:40 PM
The cost of publishing really must have gone up because Cold Days was over five hundred pages and the cover price was the same as Peace Talks approx $28.00.  Skin Game was four hundred and fifty pages, cover price cost roughly the same as Peace Talks $29.00..   I bought a Diana Gabaldon book from the Outlander series, over 800 pages for $35.00..  If Battle Ground four hundred and fifty pages for the cover price of $28.00, the total for the two books is $56.00!  Not to mention shipping, taxes, etc...  So my friends which would have served us better?  One longer more satisfying book that is a little more expensive or two shorter ones that in the long run we are paying more money for and are less satisfied?

Also since a lot of us purchase the book from Amazon or Kindle, we never pay the full price anyway..
When they were done discounting Peace Talks I think I was charged around $14.00 more or less, and roughly the same for Battle Ground..  The only way you pay full price is if you buy it from Barns and Noble or another bookstore, but if you belong to one of their clubs you also pay less.
Bottom line, if the machine your publisher has to make hardbacks can only handle a 600 page book, it's gonna cost a lot more to make a 750 page book.  They either have to buy a bigger machine or pay someone else to print it.  A $50 price tag is enough sticker shock to scare away a lot of readers that aren't as invested.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 18, 2020, 10:45:40 PM
Bottom line, if the machine your publisher has to make hardbacks can only handle a 600 page book, it's gonna cost a lot more to make a 750 page book.  They either have to buy a bigger machine or pay someone else to print it.  A $50 price tag is enough sticker shock to scare away a lot of readers that aren't as invested.

ACE Books have been around a long time, it isn't like they are in business with a wee little printing press than cannot handle a seven hundred page book!  As I said I seriously doubt that it would cost fifty dollars at the end of the day especially if you bought it through Amazon.. However doing it their way if one pays the cover price you are paying well over fifty dollars for two books!  Someone is peeing up our backs and calling it rain.. 

I might add that Jim is a best selling author, you'd think they'd cut him some slack..  The first book in his Cinder Spire series is almost 800 pages long yet Amazon is selling it for around $14.00!  There has been a name change but the publishing company is basically the same.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: magnuskn on July 20, 2020, 11:40:53 AM
It didn't really make much sense to me, either, but we gotta take Jim at his word, I'd say.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 20, 2020, 02:10:45 PM
It didn't really make much sense to me, either, but we gotta take Jim at his word, I'd say.

We do, there isn't anything we can do about it..  However we don't have to like it..
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Runninraven on July 20, 2020, 06:30:06 PM
- There were multiple moments where I went "Aaaaah, just stop and talk to the people, Harry!" Ivy, Sarissa, Fix. I really wanted those conversations to happen. And I am quite unhappy that the Merlin hasn't shown up, I really wanted that conversation between Harry and him.

It bugged me so, so much that Harry never made an attempt to ask Bob the Skull about the Conjuritis. Just took Butters' suggestion and never made any real inquiries to someone that knows magical maladies.

Loved the book, though. Even despite the incompleteness. And when Maggie told Harry that Michael thinks he is one of the best people he knows. Yeah...got a little dusty in the room.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Gigglestomp on July 27, 2020, 08:47:06 PM
Ferrovax is way more powerful than Ethniu. Jim's already said Ferro is so powerful thats hes actually limited. If he ever powered up it would break reality. When he was talking about things that could challenge mab the list was very short and it was basically a caviat about having to surrender reality in a lose lose situation even if you won. On the list was Ferrovax and an Archangel among a few others (Like the white council. All of it, not just the senior council. And it would have to be outside of faerie and probably in the summer).

But he mentioned ferro was so strong he would basically break reality where he stood if he powered up, so in a way he is limited. I imagine he's a more powerful badass version of shenron from dragonball z. Like super dragon ball dragon. Universe changes around him and warps if he exercises power, and might break altogether.

Ethniu is either weak enough that she can power up, or she cheated and found a way to manage it without breaking reality, or she doesn't care about reality. With the outsider attack its probably C.

Anyway that's why ferro can't fight her he has to limit himself to sealing the earth to her.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 27, 2020, 09:19:14 PM
As I say Ferro is probably the Midgard Serpent, most of his power is checked by Odin/Beowulf/Kringle, all of whom have dragon issues. It’s like Summer and Winter, checks and balances.

Neither can bring their full power into play without kicking off Ragnarok.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Bad Alias on July 28, 2020, 12:30:48 AM
I missed the Kringle dragon connection.

Ethniu breaking reality would be a good way to explain all the continuity errors.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 28, 2020, 07:57:54 AM
Gigglestomp what are you talking about? Where was an Archangel on that list?

Ferrovax was clearly scared of her, Vadderung too. Notice they didn't even attempt to protect or defend Mab? Also the reactions both of them have...are both terrified and both sound like they are being forced/compelled to talk. Note the gasping?

What makes you think that was Ethniu's "true form" anyhow? Not to mention she remembers what One-Eye once was and that he is now almost mortal. Where would you place her now? She respected Vadderung when he was Odin, or whatever he was once. Not what he is now.

Reality did have trouble with her. Dresden could barely keep his thoughts together, he started moaning and worshiping. All the mortals did. Reality couldn't even contain her speed or power. Dresden had to work out her attack by inference.

The surrender Reality thing was if Mab isn't there to defend the Gates with her army, then the Outsiders get in. It wouldn't be instantaneous. An army without it's leader is weak, and Mab is their strength.

Ferrovax talks about cracking the gathering of monkey houses, which Jim says is more like the world bending around Neo than literally cracking the earth. That said, Ferro does talk about how his contribution to the fight if all out would do more damage than good - by which he is implying colateral damage. He isn't discussing what would happen to reality, but to Chicago itself. But that isn't to say he is anything on Ethniu's level.

The beings on the list were (not including the nations): The Mothers (who wouldn't), Titania (exactly 50/50), Ferrovax (stronger in a slugfest, Mab would be loathe to take him head on), Drakul, Cowl (if he completed the Darkhallow) - he would have become a minor God. Which all assumes Mab is alone without her army outside Faerie...just like she was in Peace Talks.

The Archangel's are not on it for another reason - they don't act because they can't, apparently. But tbh they are all on another scale entirely.

Ethniu is a God. A Titan. She might not be the strongest, but she is the last and she has gone mad. If the others were capable of beating her, they would have shown up.

Cowl would have been a god, Ethniu is a god already. Either way, both could have beaten Mab who is merely a demigod. A God trumps a demigod, in raw power.

But if you want to talk strategy, allies, options and favors...well that's a different story.





Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 28, 2020, 10:04:12 AM
Perhaps the original plan was for Darkhallow Cowl to challenge Mab with a Red Court/ Ghoul army. This may be Plan B, with the Fomor requiring certain specific severed heads to do the Black Council’s bidding, allies rather a true believer.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 28, 2020, 10:22:46 AM
^^I completely agree.

I have theorized before that the Red Court were always just one talon of the cats paw, with the real wielders still behind the scenes. Many of us suspect that Fomor have just replaced the Red Court as the current champion of the enemy.

The clear goals have remained the same for the faceless group (the theoretical Black Council, perhaps the same organization as the Circle).
Namely: Destroy the White Council, create global chaos (especially amongst the supernatural nations), take out Mab and instate a New Order. Humans would return to being cattle and stripped of what little power they have gathered. Hence why even some of the more predatory nations (like the White Court) are protecting their investment...humans.

Interesting idea about the Fomor requesting severed heads. I assume this is because of their united by revenge theme?



Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 28, 2020, 11:47:04 AM
It’s not destroy the White Council and never has been, it’s destroy the Accords, the White Council is merely collateral damage, destroy the Accords you tear the White Council apart, set Summer on Winter, force a change of management in the White Court, destroy Marcone, destroy the Archive, set Ferro and Vadderung on each other again etc etc and have them all set upon by the mortals for the destruction of Chicago. Frankly the Swartalves are the only group not worth targeting, they are Switzerland.

No the Fomor merely want the severed heads of their traditional enemies, that is their price, it doesn’t benefit the Black Council, but hey why not if t gets you a Titan.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 28, 2020, 01:03:23 PM
Are you sure one of the goals isn't to destroy the White Council? The White Council was set up to protect humanity from the monsters and itself. Removing them would be a major step towards the end of humanity and a reversion into a darker age.

The Black Council has clearly attempted to remove the Council for a long time. The Vampires (as a whole) were always going to try and remove the Council, particularly the Reds. But originally the Whites also were part of that side (although possibly hedging their bets). Harry was manipulated into throwing the first punch, that's been stated a few times.

Cowl (who is likely on the Black Council) was going to destroy it. And he was quite happy to.

As early as Grave Peril the Council's destruction has been on the cards and spoken of.

The Svartalves aren't Switzerland...where did you get that idea? The only neutral beings I know of are the Archive and Mac.

It does benefit the aims of the Black Council to have more chaos in the world and remove the competition.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: astralwanderer on July 29, 2020, 12:42:12 AM
I missed the Kringle dragon connection.

Ethniu breaking reality would be a good way to explain all the continuity errors.

How many errors have you found so far? I found a few of them to be a little obvious myself.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 29, 2020, 12:50:41 AM
St Nicholas charmed a dragon as a miracle. St Nicholas, Kringle, Santa, Father Christmas that’s a lot of alias even for Vadderung.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Bad Alias on July 29, 2020, 02:23:24 AM
How many errors have you found so far? I found a few of them to be a little obvious myself.
There's a continuity error thread.

St Nicholas charmed a dragon as a miracle. St Nicholas, Kringle, Santa, Father Christmas that’s a lot of alias even for Vadderung.
Thanks.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on July 29, 2020, 04:42:35 AM
Perhaps the original plan was for Darkhallow Cowl to challenge Mab with a Red Court/ Ghoul army.

I don't think Cowl actually intended to fight Mab... the WoJ just means that post-Darkhallow he would have been on that power level. (The Mothers are also on that WoJ list, and it specifically says they wouldn't do it).

But then, my WAG/theory for years has been that Cowl was lying to the Red Court to set the Vampire War into higher gear. I don't think Cowl's real plan is/was anything like Harry believes it was.

Maybe I should repost that theory, it's probably been like 7-8 years... I think that was pre-CD even.)
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on July 29, 2020, 04:50:06 AM
Are you sure one of the goals isn't to destroy the White Council? The White Council was set up to protect humanity from the monsters and itself. Removing them would be a major step towards the end of humanity and a reversion into a darker age.

...or so the White Council claims. We've heard this from people who are Council members. That doesn't mean it's objectively true.

If the White Council was really about protecting humanity from "the monsters", there would be a lot fewer monsters that prey on humans around. War isn't necessarily against the Accords ... No one acts like Harry violated the Accords by killing off the Red Court, after all.
Title: Re: !!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Arjan on July 29, 2020, 05:42:54 AM
More likely the white council is set up to stop mortal wizards from meddling with outsiders.

Or alternatively. The white council is set up by the immortals to stop competition, prevent them to get real magic and mantles.