ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: MZFalconer on January 12, 2013, 08:04:13 PM
-
Does this look alright for a Demon's Scion?
Inhuman Recovery [-2].
Supernatural Toughness [-4].
The Catch [+5]. The Catch is Holy Items/True Faith
+2 for only protecting against physical impacts.
+2 for being easily found out i.e. from one of any number of films, demons are vulnerable to faith and holy items.
+1 it's not extremely rare, but it's not something anyone could acquire.
Do I understand this correctly?
The Armour (o o) from the toughness will only protect him against physical attacks but the extra four boxes of physical stress capacity can still be used to absorb other attacks.
The Regeneration ability will reduce any consequences not inflicted by holy items or true faith.
Do I understand this correctly?
-
The Armour (o o) from the toughness will only protect him against physical attacks but the extra four boxes of physical stress capacity can still be used to absorb other attacks.
This isn't quite correct. The catch applies to everything granted by toughness/recovery powers. You don't have either for any attack meeting the catch requirements - for those you're no tougher and heal no faster than a normal human.
-
The Catch [+5].[/i] The Catch is Holy Items/True Faith
+2 for only protecting against physical impacts.
I believe these two lines might be resulting in something you do not intend.
So, just to clarify:
Either your catch protects only against a single source of harm (ie. physical impacts) and all other sources of harm bypass your toughness powers or your toughness powers are bypassed by a single source of harm (ie. holy items, or true faith). Multiple catches provide only the largest bonus, but any attack that fulfills one of those catches bypasses your toughness powers.
The Catch as I read it would be fulfilled by:
any harm not stemming from a physical impact (heat, light, sound, most magical attacks, etc)
OR: any harm caused by the impact from a holy object
OR: any harm caused by an impact with something infused with True Faith
It would protect against:
physical impacts by non-holy non-true-faith objects or entities
Issues like this can be wholly evaded, though, through the use of the Limitation custom power created on this board (if you can get your GM and group to accept it) which weighs the refresh value of things like Catches on how often the player and GM agree such circumstances with affect the character rather than the hypothetical difficulty another character would have in implementing the Catch
-
Nope, that's wrong. That first +2 would only apply if it only protected against a very specific sub-category like fire or magic, if it protects against everything except a specific sub-category (as this does) you only get the second two (so only +3). And, in the official DFRPG universe, very few things are +2 Catches for knowledge and holy items aren't one of them, so it's a total of only +2 (and shown in OW at several places).
And, as UmbraLux says, the extra stress boxes also do not apply to things where the Catch does.
-
Surely anyone who's seen a movie featuring a demon (e.g. The Exorcist), or read a book or been to church would atleast consider the possibility that demons would be vulnerable to symbols of faith. I'd say it was fairly ingrained in popular culture. I agree that not just anyone could come by it though.
I'm also not clear why a physical impact is less acceptable than fire for a +2. Is it not simply swapping heat for force?
It's just a more likely to occur than fire. If the story took place on the planet venus rather than earth would fire no longer be acceptable for a +2 because it's more commonplace there?
-
Surely anyone who's seen a movie featuring a demon (e.g. The Exorcist), or read a book or been to church would atleast consider the possibility that demons would be vulnerable to symbols of faith. I'd say it was fairly ingrained in popular culture. I agree that not just anyone could come by it though.
The same could be said of cold iron and the Fae. That one's on wikipedia. And yet, it's only a +3 Catch (+1 from knowledge, +2 from being common as dirt). That +2 from knowledge is really stingily given out in the default universe.
I'm also not clear why a physical impact is less acceptable than fire for a +2. Is it not simply swapping heat for force?
It's just a more likely to occur than fire. If the story took place on the planet venus rather than earth would fire no longer be acceptable for a +2 because it's more commonplace there?
Oh, if it's very specifically only physical impact you're right, it gets the +2...but that's gonna screw you vs. 90% of magic as well as several other things, just FYI. And magic is probably the thing you need extra defenses against most given its power.
-
I now see about how the physical would be bypassed by any non physical XD not sure how that would rate discovery level...
I see what you mean, although the Sidhe one could be a +4, all the examples I saw only had 4 points of toughness and since the power has to cost atleast -1 it may just not be shown.
I think the Cold Iron should be a +4 because almost anyone with knowledge of the Sidhe would know it, if someone asked you about them it would be one of the first things you said.
The demons and holy/faith thing has to be atleast as common as knowledge of the Black court and Dracula's weaknesses.
-
The same could be said of cold iron and the Fae. That one's on wikipedia. And yet, it's only a +3 Catch (+1 from knowledge, +2 from being common as dirt). That +2 from knowledge is really stingily given out in the default universe.
I'd argue there's a pretty big difference.
Having to look it up on wikipedia is significantly less well known than being such a significant part of popular culture. Assuming that you're setting your game in the English-speaking parts of the West, a good amount of knowledge of Christianity (or more specifically, Catholicism, I suppose) should be taken for granted. It's such a core, underlying part of the culture that it's pretty hard to have a good cultural awareness without picking up things, even if it's just watching the Exorcist, or reading Hellblazer.
That said, I strongly disagree with the Fae only getting +1 for knowledge. It's explicitly stated in the rulebooks that +1 is for when it "requires
access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard’s library)". Wikipedia doesn't fit that at all, nor does the Fairy Lore Handbook (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fairy-Lore-Handbook-Greenwood-Handbooks/dp/0313333491), by Ashliman, or Faeries (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faeries-Brian-Froud/dp/0810995867), by Froud. Both books, by the way, mention the weakness to iron, and Amazon could have them delivered within the next 24 hours or so. Frankly, I don't think it could get much easier for me to find out, short of having it as general cultural knowledge that I'd pick up naturally.
The idea that they should be getting +4, but it's capping out makes a lot more sense to me.
-
I'd argue there's a pretty big difference.
Having to look it up on wikipedia is significantly less well known than being such a significant part of popular culture. Assuming that you're setting your game in the English-speaking parts of the West, a good amount of knowledge of Christianity (or more specifically, Catholicism, I suppose) should be taken for granted. It's such a core, underlying part of the culture that it's pretty hard to have a good cultural awareness without picking up things, even if it's just watching the Exorcist, or reading Hellblazer.
You read (or watch!) Hellboy you know about the Fae, too. Also, fairy tales and similar things. I agree the holy thing's more common...but it's also misleading, at least, IMO. It implies any cross or prayer will work and that's simply not true and a potentially deadly mistake.
That said, I strongly disagree with the Fae only getting +1 for knowledge. It's explicitly stated in the rulebooks that +1 is for when it "requires
access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard’s library)". Wikipedia doesn't fit that at all, nor does the Fairy Lore Handbook (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fairy-Lore-Handbook-Greenwood-Handbooks/dp/0313333491), by Ashliman, or Faeries (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faeries-Brian-Froud/dp/0810995867), by Froud. Both books, by the way, mention the weakness to iron, and Amazon could have them delivered within the next 24 hours or so. Frankly, I don't think it could get much easier for me to find out, short of having it as general cultural knowledge that I'd pick up naturally.
Personally, I might be inclined to agree with you. My general interpretation has always been that Fairies in the Dresdenverse look so many different ways (and not always ways that wikipedia or fairy books would identify as fairies) that you might need an equivalent amount of research to the +1 version to even know it's a Fairie. The same logic would apply to human looking demons.
The idea that they should be getting +4, but it's capping out makes a lot more sense to me.
Check OW p. 46, 50, and 54 for some example Fae with -6 or more of Refresh and still only a +3 Catch. That's just for starters, too. Likewise, check out p. 166, 239, 222, or 182 for demons with more than -4 Refresh of Toughness stuff still counting Holy Stuff as only +2.
-
My general interpretation has always been that Fairies in the Dresdenverse look so many different ways (and not always ways that wikipedia or fairy books would identify as fairies) that you might need an equivalent amount of research to the +1 version to even know it's a Fairie.
This is my general thinking with it too. Faeries being vulnerable to Cold Iron is quite well ingrained in at least Western culture, but looking at Dresdenverse faeries it'd be easy to know "Hit Tootoot with an iron bar! He's a pixie!", knowing to hit the weird oversized supernatural Cait Sith with the same thing, not so much.
I think the +2 version of the catch is there for completely utterly blatantly obvious 'even the guy with brain damage knows this' type of things, like "Fire is vulnerable to water".
The other thing to remember, is that while we might consider that Cold Iron, items of Faith etc are very obvious as vulnerabilities, we are roleplayers, therefore we are automatically in the top few percent of people in the world for pop culture references, legends, lore and general well-read-ness. When considering catch-cost you need to factor in the fact that the vast majority of the world is just less clued in than the person considering the question.
-
Personally, I might be inclined to agree with you. My general interpretation has always been that Fairies in the Dresdenverse look so many different ways (and not always ways that wikipedia or fairy books would identify as fairies) that you might need an equivalent amount of research to the +1 version to even know it's a Fairie. The same logic would apply to human looking demons.
Personally I think they just screwed up. See also: True Love.
Given the nature of mythology, there's really nothing that's obvious on sight as what it is. That Black Court Vampire could be a lich, that werewolf could be a wolf-shaped faerie, and so on.
-
I think the +2 version of the catch is there for completely utterly blatantly obvious 'even the guy with brain damage knows this' type of things, like "Fire is vulnerable to water".
That's not how it's phrased in the rules, though, so I don't know where you're getting that interpretation. A +2 rebate is provided for Catches where anyone meaningfully aware of the supernatural is likely to be aware of your weakness.
-
Personally I think they just screwed up. See also: True Love.
How's that screwed up? Harry knows it, but only because Thomas told him (and pretty much everyone knows their own Catch) and it's extremely hard to get, especially in any useful sense. I mean, you either have it (unlikely) or you don't (and are a bit screwed).
Given the nature of mythology, there's really nothing that's obvious on sight as what it is. That Black Court Vampire could be a lich, that werewolf could be a wolf-shaped faerie, and so on.
Valid point...but I'd argue they only get the +2 when they're the obvious critter type associated with the lore (ie: a werewolf lookin' thing vulnerable to silver). When it's the first thing people would try on 'em.
-
...it's extremely hard to get, especially in any useful sense. I mean, you either have it (unlikely) or you don't (and are a bit screwed).
Sounds like a quote from the description of what +1 Catch is. Here, lemme get a real quote: "If it is bypassed by something only a rare class of people in the world have...you get a +1."
+0 is for something only one or two people have.
(Also it seems sketchy that the weakness of a major type of monster could be that secret...but I'll let that slide.)
Valid point...but I'd argue they only get the +2 when they're the obvious critter type associated with the lore (ie: a werewolf lookin' thing vulnerable to silver). When it's the first thing people would try on 'em.
Most fey and most demons would get +2, then. Demons often look demonic, and faeries often look fey.
The Catch mechanics are a frequent source of weirdness. For those not willing to use Limitation or some other rewrite, I suggest just making up the rebates based on what seems reasonable.
-
I thought the strength of the catch was based on how difficult the weakness was to discover once you knew what enemy you were facing.
If you don't know what you're researching the only way to discover whether you had the right catch would be trial and error.
If it wasn't the case wouldn't any Sidhe under a disguising glamour have a higher catch due to the added difficulty of discerning it's nature?
-
I always assumed the True Love catch was mostly for compels, because by the way it works in the fluff, it's nigh-impossible to weaponize True Love.
-
I thought the strength of the catch was based on how difficult the weakness was to discover once you knew what enemy you were facing.
This is technically true, but doesn't appear to be how the Catches we have as an example were actually structured. Clearly, it's an issue you should discuss with your GM.
If you don't know what you're researching the only way to discover whether you had the right catch would be trial and error.
If it wasn't the case wouldn't any Sidhe under a disguising glamour have a higher catch due to the added difficulty of discerning it's nature?
Well, if you see it do stuff, figuring out it's one of the sidhe (or whatever) is doable with a bit of research. Probably at about the +1 level...which is what such creatures seem to have costed on them.
I always assumed the True Love catch was mostly for compels, because by the way it works in the fluff, it's nigh-impossible to weaponize True Love.
This. At least to a large degree. I once had a Pure Mortal PC who specialized in weaponized Catches (he had Occultist with a focus on it, even) and we talked about how you weaponize true love and determined there was basically no way to do it. I mean, I suppose you can theoretically trick them into feeding on someone in love...but that's way more awkward and difficult to arrange than it's worth most of the time, and isn't actually likely to damage them that badly unless you have them tied down or something (and any Catch you have to tie someone down to use is pretty close to useless). None of this would technically reduce the Catch by the rules, I admit, but it's enough to justify the lower price to me, at least.
-
Sadly, the rules for pricing a Catch don't really line up with the examples in OW in many, if not most, cases.
Note that the knowledge +2 is for: If almost anyone with an awareness of the supernatural knows about the Catch or could easily find out (like from the Paranet, or Bram Stoker’s Dracula if you’re a Black Court vampire), you get a +2.
(emphasis mine) which really isn't all that narrow.
There's just no way the Black Court catch shouldn't be +4 - garlic alone is "something that anyone could reasonably get access to, but usually doesn’t carry on them" (the rule for a +2), even without all their other weaknesses.
So you have to choose - go with the YS rules and re-price all the Catches from OW, or go with the examples and change the YS rules.
-
Sadly, the rules for pricing a Catch don't really line up with the examples in OW in many, if not most, cases.
Note that the knowledge +2 is for: (emphasis mine) which really isn't all that narrow.
There's just no way the Black Court catch shouldn't be +4 - garlic alone is "something that anyone could reasonably get access to, but usually doesn’t carry on them" (the rule for a +2), even without all their other weaknesses.
So you have to choose - go with the YS rules and re-price all the Catches from OW, or go with the examples and change the YS rules.
Uh...the Black Court are +4 in terms of Catch. They just have Supernatural Toughness [-4] and no other toughness powers, meaning they never get more than a +3 rebate.
-
Uh...the Black Court are +4 in terms of Catch. They just have Supernatural Toughness [-4] and no other toughness powers, meaning they never get more than a +3 rebate.
Ah, OK... right, they don't have Recovery. for some reason I've forgot that several times. So a Black Court Elder with Mythic Toughness would get +4 back.
But there's still lots of others that are weird....
Cold iron (Fae - canonically +3) is available to everyone (+2) and well known (+2).
Faith/holy and sunlight (RCVs - +2) are available to rare class of people (true faith, wizards using sunlight-in-a-hankie) (+1) and well known (+2). Arguably sunlight is +2 for availability, but...
Ghost dust (spectres - +0) is available to rare class of people (+1) and discoverable using research (+1)
True Love/Courage/Hope (WCVs - +0) is available to rare class of people (+1). It's probably discoverable using research (+1) as I think the White Council, Venatori Umbrorum etc. would keep files on this stuff.
-
Weaponize-ability is not included in the value of The Catch. It probably should be, but it isn't.
Weaponizing True Love seems easy to me. Once you're in it, just start punching. Or get an appropriately love-filled wedding ring and start punching.
-
Let's not derail yet another thread with a debate on True Love. Various members of this forum have been over it numerous times in the past, and there is no consensus.
I highly recommend the use of Limitation for representing any Catch in the range of True [emotion], Love included.
-
Weaponize-ability is not included in the value of The Catch. It probably should be, but it isn't.
Weaponizing True Love seems easy to me. Once you're in it, just start punching. Or get an appropriately love-filled wedding ring and start punching.
Sometimes this works (in TC, Justine can burn Madeline Raith just by touching her with her hair). But that works because Madeline is so Hunger-driven that she feeds automatically upon touching someone.
But Harry's True Love protection doesn't burn Lara until she actually tries to feed on him (in WN), because Lara is more controlled.
-
On the first day of Christmas, my True Love gave to me...
A brand new RPG...
-
Sometimes this works (in TC, Justine can burn Madeline Raith just by touching her with her hair). But that works because Madeline is so Hunger-driven that she feeds automatically upon touching someone.
But Harry's True Love protection doesn't burn Lara until she actually tries to feed on him (in WN), because Lara is more controlled.
Yup. Check the WoJ archive. This, more than anything, is why it's damn near impossible to weaponize it.
-
This. At least to a large degree. I once had a Pure Mortal PC who specialized in weaponized Catches (he had Occultist with a focus on it, even) and we talked about how you weaponize true love and determined there was basically no way to do it. I mean, I suppose you can theoretically trick them into feeding on someone in love...but that's way more awkward and difficult to arrange than it's worth most of the time, and isn't actually likely to damage them that badly unless you have them tied down or something (and any Catch you have to tie someone down to use is pretty close to useless). None of this would technically reduce the Catch by the rules, I admit, but it's enough to justify the lower price to me, at least.
I have a slightly different take on catches. Sometimes the bonus you get for how obscure the knowledge is isn't completely based on the catch itself.
I'll use the True Love or Silk (I just recently used Silk in another thread, because I have a character who has a catch of "flowing silk")
Maybe finding the knowledge that "true love" is their catch is a +1, but finding out the only way to weaponize it is to find a wedding rings from a couple that has been married for 50 years and forge them into the hilt of a sword, would make it closer to +0.
In the Silk example, my GM and I decided that getting silk was pretty common +2, finding out the catch would be around +2 because people could wrap it around clubs and fists and stuff, in a pinch, we decided to put it to +1 and make the method of using the Catch more of a mystery...so to use it on a sword or any weapon effectively, the silk had to be attached to the hilt(for the sword) in advance while saying a small prayer. So while the silk, itself, wasn't going to be hitting my character, the presense of the silk and its association with the sword allowed the sword to act as a catch.
So the research isn't only WHAT the catch is but HOW to use the catch effectively.
-
Sometimes this works (in TC, Justine can burn Madeline Raith just by touching her with her hair). But that works because Madeline is so Hunger-driven that she feeds automatically upon touching someone.
But Harry's True Love protection doesn't burn Lara until she actually tries to feed on him (in WN), because Lara is more controlled.
What about Justine's gift for Thomas? He only touches it while wearing gloves, and I doubt it's because of feeding.
-
The Catch is True Love, not True Love while feeding. Even if a punch from someone in Love doesn't burn a WCV, it'll beat their Recovery.
-
The Catch is True Love, not True Love while feeding. Even if a punch from someone in Love doesn't burn a WCV, it'll beat their Recovery.
That doesn't necessarily follow. Many Catches have less than precise language, the love itself needs to be involved for the Catch to come up, IMO, not just the person who's in love. And that involves either feeding, or tokens of love.
-
The Catch is True Love, not True Love while feeding. Even if a punch from someone in Love doesn't burn a WCV, it'll beat their Recovery.
Which isn't the way it's presented in the books.
Also, you gotta admit, it would finally answer the question of why is that Catch [+0]?
-
Yup. Check the WoJ archive. This, more than anything, is why it's damn near impossible to weaponize it.
Items exchange with true love seem to bypass that--Lara has a scar from picking up a wedding ring, for example, and there's Thomas's scarf from Justine.
So it can be weaponized, it's just that the items that are typically given as tokens of true love aren't usually weapons (though I was half-planning to have Inari Raith use a necklace given to her by Bobby wrapped around her fingers as an improvised weapon in one of my scenarios...)
-
Items exchange with true love seem to bypass that--Lara has a scar from picking up a wedding ring, for example, and there's Thomas's scarf from Justine.
So it can be weaponized, it's just that the items that are typically given as tokens of true love aren't usually weapons (though I was half-planning to have Inari Raith use a necklace given to her by Bobby wrapped around her fingers as an improvised weapon in one of my scenarios...)
Also, unless you happen to be in love or have some very understanding White Court friends to experiment on, it's gonna be really difficult to know which wedding ring or scarf will work and which won't. True Love isn't exactly that common, per the descriptions given.
-
Items exchange with true love seem to bypass that--Lara has a scar from picking up a wedding ring, for example, and there's Thomas's scarf from Justine.
Yes, some tokens exchanged between individuals experiencing mutual True Love suffice to serve as the Catch for members of House Raith, but not all.
And how does an outside observer know which token will serve as the Catch, and which will fall flat (or even which couple is actually experiencing mutual True Love and so might provide such a token)? Heck, how does someone IN one of those relationships know?
Identifying the Catch as being True Love doesn't do you much good if you can't identify True Love in the world. Being on a beach littered with diamonds doesn't do you much good if you can't distinguish them from the sand.
-
What about Justine's gift for Thomas? He only touches it while wearing gloves, and I doubt it's because of feeding.
In the books, it seems that contact with symbols of True Love always burns Raith Whampires, but contact with people in True Love only burns them if they try to feed.
But for some Whampires (Madeline with anybody, or Thomas specifically with Justine) they can't touch without trying to feed...
-
Which isn't the way it's presented in the books.
Also, you gotta admit, it would finally answer the question of why is that Catch [+0]?
No, it'd still be at least +1. The Catch rules are weird.
And the way it's presented in the novels is actually totally unclear. We never see a test of whether the White Court heals superhumanly fast when wounded by a punch from someone wearing a wedding ring given by their Loving husband.
In fact, I recall nothing in the novels concerning WCVs and True Love that didn't look like a Compel to me.
So you pretty much have to go by what it says in YS, which is nothing really.
-
I'll throw in another Catch question here:
A player, who's character is the Emissary of an Elemental Dragon of Earth, wants "Hardwood" as his catch.
His reasoning is that Wood opposes Earth in chinese Mythology and thus easily researchable with a magical library +1
And wood is easy to come by +2
I just can't picture regular fights in which the character is that often attacked with wooden weapons that his Catch might be worth the +3.
What are your opinions?
-
I'd say it is worth +1 or +2 at most:
-Finding out the Catch requires interacting with the Emissary in person, and actually finding out that he is the emissary of an Earth dragon. Unless that part is really obvious and well known, the catch is worth +0. If his status as an Earth Dragon emissary is obvious, then the catch would be worth +1.
-Hardwood may be easy to come by, but actual wooden weapons that are worth a damn are not. The opposition would be limited to weapons with a value of 2 or less (batons, nightsticks and staves), and most ranged options are right out. Therefore, access to lethal wooden weaponry is rare, making the catch +1. Unless the definition of "hardwood" includes Ogres using Sildenafil citrate, in which case +2 is fair.
TL;DR: If the power the emissary is serving is really obvious, the catch is worth +2. Otherwise it's +1.
-
Thanks, Magicpockets, perfect reasoning.
-
That's clearly a +3 Catch.
The Power that an Emissary is serving is more or less always obvious, because Emissaries have Marked By Power.
If that Catch is +0 for knowledge because you have to meet the Emissary to know what to use against him, then essentially all Catches are. You have to meet a vampire to know it's a vampire.
It doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to get useful wooden weapons, since the Catch calculation does not include that.
I don't see any room for interpretation here.
PS: The Catch's cost assumes that people will occasionally bring wooden clubs and stuff specifically to exploit The Catch.
-
I agree with Sanctaphrax. Wood is not hard to acquire, not even wooden weapons. Hell, I own a wooden weapon in the form of a walking stick you could use a staff. That's +2 availability right there, you need something like magic or True Faith or a particular power or rare material to be only +1. And he's right about the ability to notice who he works for as well, Marked By Power is not subtle.
-
Does Marked by Power reveal who exactly you are marked by?
-
Does Marked by Power reveal who exactly you are marked by?
Reading it, yes, actually, it does. That's part of why it gives the bonuses it does.