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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: WereElephant on March 26, 2018, 02:01:53 PM
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This may have been addressed elsewhere, but Marcone seems to be of abnormal interest to the supernatural community. He's the only Mortal free-holding lord of the Unseelie Accords. A Valkyrie is in his service, and Monoc Securities seems to have a vested interest in him. He's made deals directly with the Queen of Air and Darkness.
Now, I like the idea of Marcone just being a regular mortal. Extraordinary in character and accomplishment, but still vanilla. However, he's displaying the same level of impact in the world that we see with the likes of Harry Dresden, Knights of the Cross, and Fae Nobility. I don't see other vanilla Mortals in the series with the same level of impact, apart from Dresden, and to a lesser extent with the Paranet, Elaine Mallory.
Has it been confirmed that Marcone is a Starborn? It would seem a little too obvious, and possibly redundant, but his signature seems to match the profile. If he's not a Starborn, is he really just a remarkable vanilla Mortal? Or is he something else?
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Note that Monoc and the valkyrie are the exact same thing, since the valkyrie works for Monoc. And that's because he hired them.
As for making deals with Mab, yeah, but she makes deals with regular mortals all the time, depending on what exactly she wants.
Mostly I chalk it up to him being a big wig in the Chicago area and Jim only has so many characters he wants to bother dealing with.
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I think he's a Genre-Savvy vanilla. You know how horror movie characters never seem to know they're in a horror movie? Marcone realized he's living in an urban fantasy story (not literally, but you get what I mean), and started doing all of the things someone with resources and intelligence should do—build defenses, forge alliances, hire competent contractors, et cetera.
If that city was ever devastated by something—plague, explosions, invasion, whatever—I'd put my money on Marcone to be the one to survive it (and figure out how to profit from it). Marcone is a character who took Clint Eastwood's mantra from Heartbreak Ridge to heart: "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome." Makes sense, as he was a Marine.
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My bet is that he is Mab's son. My next best guess is that he is the son of Lucifer or Hades.
I personally like to view Marcone as some screwed up timeline child of Murphy/Mab and Harry. It makes Harry/Marcone dynamic more interesting than the already interesting one they got going on. It doubles down on the paternal vibe Marcone likes to give off when dealing with Harry. And, that same paternal vibe pisses Harry off such that Harry pushes Marcone's buttons because of it. Storm Front and Dresden Files is devoted to Jim's father. First chapter or two of SF has Harry and John Marcone interacting with fatherly, grandfatherly, father talking to son references dropped liberally in their interactions. The soulgaze in White Knight between Demeter and Harry has Harry seeing a young Marcone. The description kinda reminded me of Harry too. Young Marcone has longish dark hair.
One of Marcone's mission is to save Chicago/world from Harry. If you ever need someone to put Harry down because he goes bad, I think Marcone would be a good guy to make it so. I'm reminded sometimes of Marcone telling Harry that he have Harry killed, I'd even do it myself... Thinking upon the temporal effects if Marcone killed his father prior to 'him' being born, that would be saying something.
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I kind of see Marcone and Butters as two sides of the same coin. The real difference being that Marcone has money to be able to DO things in the supernatural world, where as Butters could only use his intellect.
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One of Marcone's mission is to save Chicago/world from Harry. If you ever need someone to put Harry down because he goes bad, I think Marcone would be a good guy to make it so. I'm reminded sometimes of Marcone telling Harry that he have Harry killed, I'd even do it myself... Thinking upon the temporal effects if Marcone killed his father prior to 'him' being born, that would be saying something.
Absolutely not. When Marcone was talking about killing Harry, it's because Harry was a threat to Marcone, not to Chicago. Marcone does head up a criminal empire, remember.
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Absolutely not. When Marcone was talking about killing Harry, it's because Harry was a threat to Marcone, not to Chicago. Marcone does head up a criminal empire, remember.
I mean, if Harry went dark in a way that offended Marcone's rules (no kids, no excessive public order disruptions) he'd probably order the hit. Maybe that's why MM Marcone is "interesting".
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Has it been confirmed that Marcone is a Starborn? It would seem a little too obvious, and possibly redundant, but his signature seems to match the profile. If he's not a Starborn, is he really just a remarkable vanilla Mortal? Or is he something else?
Not only not confirmed, but not even hinted at.
Marcone is smart and savvy, and that's all he really needs -- Harry remarks constantly about how most people are willfully ignorant, and Anna Valmont in Skin Game says that if you're actually looking for it, supernatural stuff is easy to find all over the place, as are supernatural connections.
He doesn't have to be a starborn or Mab's son or anything like that to have the drive and will to recognize the world for what it is and take steps accordingly. Hell, that's how he's introduced -- one of his men is killed by magic, so he tries to hire Harry. When that doesn't work, he shops around until he finds someone he can work with.
It's really not that different from how you'd operate an entirely mundane operation. And note that it's Odin of all people who he ends up with -- Odin valued cleverness and sheer chutzpa. A pure mortal who gets punched in the nose by the supernatural and then turns around and goes, "Come at me, bro," is definitely going to get his attention.
Remember, knowledge is power. You don't have to be supernaturally empowered, a Starborn, the son of a fae or anything like that to be dangerous. You just need to know the right things and have the will to act.
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Well. We do know his parentage is hidden from us. His real name is unknown. His age is unknown. His timeline is sketchy with regard to when he was in the Marines when he took over the criminal underworld etc. (I created a thread going into his timeline and there seems to be inconsistencies with regard to it.) We do have Nic making some suggestion that Marcone would be a good fit as a Baron (or something) a few hundred years ago.
We have seen Jim using a description of Marcone shooting a gun and thinking he could follow the bullet; Jim uses a similar description with Murphy and her shooting a gun and following a bullet.
We haven't seen Marcone outright use supernatural abilities, but it doesn't preclude him from having some. It may be that he just hasn't yet been forced to use them. We have seen has some mad skills in martial abilities, soldier skills likely acquired in the Marines per WOJ on Twitter.
I think when you have connections to Mab, Odin, Hades, Ferrovax, etc, I think that pretty much lends itself to being circumstantial evidence that Marcone isn't exactly vanilla mortal. I mean he even has Hendricks who I think wields a sword/weapon in a short story associated with a line descended from Norse mythology. It's more evidence to suggests that Marcone has another link via Hendricks to Norse pantheon.
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I would be disappointed if Marcone turns out to be a supernatural. He's a badass because of his organization. He's learned about the supernatural and is using it to his advantage. His knowledge and tutoring by Gard and probably others on the supernatural situation is based on his power, based in his criminal enterprises.
Now, I have no doubt that he'll try to figure out how to extend his life, but that's something anyone with that kind of power/money would do. He just has a leg up due to his knowledge of the supernatural.
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Marcone being supernatural downgrades him from a badass who's able to stand toe-to-toe with things that could obliterate him out of sheer savvy and chutzpah to, "Oh, another one."
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Marcone being supernatural downgrades him from a badass who's able to stand toe-to-toe with things that could obliterate him out of sheer savvy and chutzpah to, "Oh, another one."
THIS
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The other reason he's not a Starborn is that he's at least a decade older than Harry. The astrological conjunction is only one of the prerequisites for making a Starborn, but it's one that doesn't come around all that frequently. Elaine is eligible because their birth dates are within a few months, but that's about the limit of 'close enough'. Plus I'm not even sure if a non-wizard can be Starborn at all - it very well may be one of the important parts.
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Also, being a Starborn is the kind of thing you might think comes up in a soulgaze.
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Also, being a Starborn is the kind of thing you might think comes up in a soulgaze.
Cause we'd know what to look for would we?(or Harry the perspective gazer)
Funny thing is besides the naming, what do you THINK a starborn can do that would ruin his 'vanillaniss"?
Cause honestly... between Harry's confrontation with Hwwb4 and the one with MW i'm thinking Starborn simply means a 'prime' personality amongst the stars. So if we think about reality as nothing more than 'Gods' mind and Outsiders as the invading consciousness we get a pretty good mock up for how the War actually is. I mean it's not like Earth has a literal dark Planet Named Nemesis that is supposed to come around and cause apocalyptic scale destruction or anything...(yes, we do!)
TWG/C is our Aeon.
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Marcone being supernatural downgrades him from a badass who's able to stand toe-to-toe with things that could obliterate him out of sheer savvy and chutzpah to, "Oh, another one."
Indeed. Also, remember Murphy? As soon as she tried to upgrade to a Supernatural Level she lost her Badass Normal status and got taken down- Hard.
Marcone is Genre Savvy enough to know that as long as he refuses any power boosts, he'll have Badass Normal levels of Plot Armour to allow him to keep up with all the Gods/Demons/Angels that he's running around with.
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Cause we'd know what to look for would we?(or Harry the perspective gazer)
No, but if it's so important, you'd think it would make some kind of difference worth noting.Funny thing is besides the naming, what do you THINK a starborn can do that would ruin his 'vanillaniss"?
Literally anything at all. If being Starborn doesn't ruin his vanillaness, then there's no point in him being one.
Plus, there's the whole "they're rare" thing going on, on the scale of one per several centuries as far as we know.
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No, but if it's so important, you'd think it would make some kind of difference worth noting.Literally anything at all. If being Starborn doesn't ruin his vanillaness, then there's no point in him being one.
Plus, there's the whole "they're rare" thing going on, on the scale of one per several centuries as far as we know.
No, actually per woj there's millions of them, most simply lack any disconcernable power to leverage as Harry does. The most unique thing about them is they are ordinary it seems. Being so ordinary I think most really never encounter heavy supernatural events/personages. Marcone dispite being ordinary, does. Look at the private relations he's had with both Odin and now Mab, he has influence, strike that. He IS influence.
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What WOJ are you referring to?
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I think he is equating Starborn with free will and power to influence events. I think leveraging events, being a fulcrum at pivotal events is one characteristic of a Starborn. And with that one characteristic, you could say there are many Starborn; however, I believe there are many other characteristics that go into Starborn besides influencing events.
Cause we'd know what to look for would we?(or Harry the perspective gazer)
Funny thing is besides the naming, what do you THINK a starborn can do that would ruin his 'vanillaniss"?
Cause honestly... between Harry's confrontation with Hwwb4 and the one with MW i'm thinking Starborn simply means a 'prime' personality amongst the stars. So if we think about reality as nothing more than 'Gods' mind and Outsiders as the invading consciousness we get a pretty good mock up for how the War actually is. I mean it's not like Earth has a literal dark Planet Named Nemesis that is supposed to come around and cause apocalyptic scale destruction or anything...(yes, we do!)
TWG/C is our Aeon
Hah. I like how you think God's mind, it being like reality, and Outsiders invading it. I argued in a long past age that it was something like you said. Or did I argue what we were reading in a sense was Harry's mind being invaded by Outsiders.
Anyways, I forget all the particulars but had "Hokey Pokey" being part of a magical dance linked to God, or at least w Harry dancing it against Outsiders is able to defeat them. It is similar to how he defeated HWWB when he was young using cultural reference to peewee herman's dance to not allow HWWB to be exactly behind him. Then in Cold Days, Molly, Harry and Gang were able to use "We will, We will rock you." against HWWBefore.
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Marcone has yet to demonstrate the one quality it is explicitly stated that Starborn have: the ability to wield power over Outsiders. For that matter, we haven't seen Elaine do it either—unless we start really stretching things, assume Aurora was infected as stated by Lily, and that the brambles and thorns Elaine held back was some kind of Outsider-powered thing (in fairness, it does kind of look like Aurora made something from nothing, but hey, it's the Nevernever; the rules for magic don't necessarily apply).
Aside from that, I third (or fourth or whatever) Mr. Death's statement that Marcone becoming super makes him less cool. Aside aside from that, Marcone would only take power if it came without strings; Marcone works for Marcone. If he picked up a mantle, for example, it'd come with obligation, and that's just not his style.
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I'm listening to The Fellowship of the Ring and just realized that Tom Bombadill could have been a Star Born, if he wasn't one of the originals.
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Just going to chime in and agree with some of the other posters. If Marcone is not a vanilla human he becomes less interesting/cool. I love the fact that Marcone (as a normal human being) has risen so high in the supernatural world with only his intelligence, discipline, and will (plus money and connections). Giving him supernatural power/lineage cheapens what he has accomplished IMO.
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No, actually per woj there's millions of them, most simply lack any disconcernable power to leverage as Harry does.
[citation needed]
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I think marcone could have supernatural lineage but he chose to be vanilla mortal. He likely was a changeling/scion that gave up his other side to be a professional monster. He did in fact say he chose to be a professional monster. That can be taken one of two ways: free willed choice, or something akin to a changeling choosing their mortal half then going the monster route.
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I think marcone could have supernatural lineage but he chose to be vanilla mortal. He likely was a changeling/scion that gave up his other side to be a professional monster. He did in fact say he chose to be a professional monster. That can be taken one of two ways: free willed choice, or something akin to a changeling choosing their mortal half then going the monster route.
OK that's possible but what would the point be? I mean from the standpoint of overall story, if Marcone's a mortal now, with no special powers or the chance to make a different choice, then it really doesn't matter if one of his parents was fae or some other supernatural creature. It might explain how he got clued-in on the supernatural world, but little else.
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The point would be that we can't exclude his parentage being non-vanillas. We can have Marcone as mortal human with him still being having supernatural lineage. People tend to argue if he is not vanilla or something that it would destroy his character/accomplishments.
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No, actually per woj there's millions of them, most simply lack any disconcernable power to leverage as Harry does. The most unique thing about them is they are ordinary it seems. Being so ordinary I think most really never encounter heavy supernatural events/personages. Marcone dispite being ordinary, does. Look at the private relations he's had with both Odin and now Mab, he has influence, strike that. He IS influence.
The only WOJ we have on it only says that both Harry and Elaine had the potential to be Starborn, and that for that purpose their birthdays (a few months apart) were close enough which ruled out Harry's Halloween birthday being significant. Nowhere has it been said there are more, let alone millions.
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The point would be that we can't exclude his parentage being non-vanillas. We can have Marcone as mortal human with him still being having supernatural lineage. People tend to argue if he is not vanilla or something that it would destroy his character/accomplishments.
Again, what is the point of a supernatural lineage that has no affect on him?
A piece of his backstory that nobody knows about, nobody brings up, nobody notices and has no affect on him and his life may as well not be there.
Now, I will say I can see Marcone trying to acquire supernatural power, but on his terms. Not unlike Xanatos -- but at minimum, I would not be at all surprised to find that he had Gard enchant his jacket to be bulletproof like Harry's, and other such personal-security type stuff.
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Well, I'm really not in the camp of him having supernatural roots that have no effect on him. I believe these supernatural roots are what is partly why mab, Odin, Hades have taken notice of him.
You are assuming his parentage is something nobody knows about, nobody brings up, nobody notices, and has no affect on him and his life. That is a huge assumption that is false. We only see via Harry so we don't know what other characters know. And I'm sure marcone's parents had an effect on his life.
To go even further, we are limited to seeing via Harry's viewpoint only for a few days every span of months up to a year.
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Well, I'm really not in the camp of him having supernatural roots that have no effect on him. I believe these supernatural roots are what is partly why mab, Odin, Hades have taken notice of him.
You are assuming his parentage is something nobody knows about, nobody brings up, nobody notices, and has no affect on him and his life. That is a huge assumption that is false. We only see via Harry so we don't know what other characters know. And I'm sure marcone's parents had an effect on his life.
False except that...
Nobody's brought it up or noticed it, and it appears to have had no effect that isn't explained by all the things we already know about.
To go even further, we are limited to seeing via Harry's viewpoint only for a few days every span of months up to a year.
And all of Marcone's accomplishments are already readily explained by the things we've already seen, and do not need attribution to unseen, unmentioned, unhinted at faerie-family nepotism.
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The overall opinion appears to be that Marcone is a vanilla mortal who displays extraordinary tenacity and cleverness without any supernatural lineage, magical advantages, or other paranormal attributes. There could theoretically be something about him yet to be revealed, but the absence of it showing up in a soul gaze and the lack of reference to such a trait from a third party seem to indicate not.
Marcone has a large shadow. Underworld lord, Freeholding lord, etc. He has big ambitions. These ambitions tend to be realized long term. He can't be the only one to think big like this, though. Are there other Marcone equivalents across the globe? Mortals who have built small, clandestine empires that interact with the supernatural on a regular basis? If not, why? What's different about Marcone?
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I kinda hope we find out that Marcone is using the Nevernever to expand his smuggling activities.
Good point about the soulgaze, WereElephant. That should have revealed any supernatural elements. Though I think we all know that Harry's description of Marcone having a Tiger Soul is a clue that Marcone is the progenitor of the Warriorborn, whom we meet in the Cinder Spires, thousands of years after the Dresden Files takes place. (/joke).
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The overall opinion appears to be that Marcone is a vanilla mortal who displays extraordinary tenacity and cleverness without any supernatural lineage, magical advantages, or other paranormal attributes. There could theoretically be something about him yet to be revealed, but the absence of it showing up in a soul gaze and the lack of reference to such a trait from a third party seem to indicate not.
Marcone has a large shadow. Underworld lord, Freeholding lord, etc. He has big ambitions. These ambitions tend to be realized long term. He can't be the only one to think big like this, though. Are there other Marcone equivalents across the globe? Mortals who have built small, clandestine empires that interact with the supernatural on a regular basis? If not, why? What's different about Marcone?
I suppose that they didn't see an advantage in signing onto the Unseelie Accords. There are rights AND obligations to such a thing.
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What's different about Marcone?
Aside from the fact Marcone learned the supernatural world was real and that he might find ways to mitigate its dangers and co-opt its abilities there might not be much difference between Marcone and some other smart, tough and ambitious leaders. There have been many capable leaders in world history but only a few are remembered like a Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great. People like that often have timing on their side that they as individuals have no control over.
Even if I look at a non-despot like Abraham Lincoln, look at some of the elements that had to line up for him to come into power. An old established political party; the Whigs, that Lincoln was a member of, self destructed in a manner that is too complex to describe here, but it allowed someone who was at most a local Whig leader in his home state to join a new more radical party (the Republicans) and leap frog to the top partially because there was no established hierarchy in the new party to keep him down. Plus, the opposition Democratic party split in two in 1860; again in a manner too complex to go into. Today in the U.S. when a presidential election comes near there is often talk of the possibility of a third party candidate. Could one of the minor parties make a dent or could some charismatic person chose the third party route and screw things for one of the major parties? Abraham Lincoln had the benefit of running in a four-way election in 1860, where every candidate took a significant portion of the vote. This is a situation Lincoln had absolutely no power to create, but he soon realized it was a situation he could exploit. You can read about the campaign of 1860 to learn the details of that time.
Now look at Marcone as a comparison. He had no way of knowing that a war in the supernatural world was brewing that would upend the established order. He couldn't have known that by establishing a stable criminal empire in Chicago he was interfering in the plans of the Black Council. He couldn't have known that there would be other supernatural powers who might want to help him. He was smart, energetic and determined enough to put clues together and learn what was happening around him and take advantage of the opportunities that were presented to him. However, remember that Marcone had to learn and make mistakes to consolidate his position. He first tried to recruit Harry to help him in Fool Moon. If Marcone had been fully clued in he should have gone straight to Vaderrung. I think this early groping for a solution to his supernatural problems is a strong indication that Marcone is a vanilla mortal.
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I think Marcone will remain a vanilla Mortal (unless and until he gets killed, at which point all bets are off). Like Murphy I think he serves to show that Mortals can and do stand up to and beside the Supernatural world. I also think he is going to be a King..."not the King we want but maybe the King we need" (to paraphrase a meme or something). A king that Odin would be proud of...
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The only WOJ we have on it only says that both Harry and Elaine had the potential to be Starborn, and that for that purpose their birthdays (a few months apart) were close enough which ruled out Harry's Halloween birthday being significant. Nowhere has it been said there are more, let alone millions.
The crazy thing is, around the KC signing when I was more active I either read or listened to a ton of Woj I can no longer seem to locate... If i'd known it would become so scarce i'd have done more to preserve what i'd found. Honestly though there are tidbit's in old, old links already transcribed the original scribe had seen no importance to but which I did. I doubt that's one of them of course, but i'd never, ever had trouble with woj before that time period.
* I even thought griff had made a thread on it, but I could be confusing that with his statistical thing on wikifandom.
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Marcone has a large shadow. Underworld lord, Freeholding lord, etc. He has big ambitions. These ambitions tend to be realized long term. He can't be the only one to think big like this, though. Are there other Marcone equivalents across the globe? Mortals who have built small, clandestine empires that interact with the supernatural on a regular basis? If not, why? What's different about Marcone?
One of the biggest differences is that Marcone is in Chicago. Chicago is one of the major crossroads of the world leading to a higher rate of supernatural occurrences. Of course, it is also home to a certain wizard who has a pretty strong moral code. It is only natural that Harry and Marcone would come into conflict and unless Marcone wants to pick up and move to a different city it is also only natural that Marcone would research his opposition in order to gain the upper hand. This would lead to the discovery of the supernatural world and Marcone saw the chance to make a bigger splash and more profit and took advantage of it.
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One of the biggest differences is that Marcone is in Chicago. Chicago is one of the major crossroads of the world leading to a higher rate of supernatural occurrences. Of course, it is also home to a certain wizard who has a pretty strong moral code. It is only natural that Harry and Marcone would come into conflict and unless Marcone wants to pick up and move to a different city it is also only natural that Marcone would research his opposition in order to gain the upper hand. This would lead to the discovery of the supernatural world and Marcone saw the chance to make a bigger splash and more profit and took advantage of it.
That and the fact that Bony Tony got hold of (at least in part) a Supernatural Being's treasure hoard. That would have clued Marcone in too.
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That and the fact that Bony Tony got hold of (at least in part) a Supernatural Being's treasure hoard. That would have clued Marcone in too.
Excellent point.
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That and the fact that Bony Tony got hold of (at least in part) a Supernatural Being's treasure hoard. That would have clued Marcone in too.
True but that was /years/ later, long after he'd been clued in and had Monoc on his payroll for a while.
Nah, I think it's simpler than that. Mama Murphy was clued in purely by proximity to the CPD Black Cats. Marcone would simply NOT allow a police division that produces so much obvious Fiction to go investigated. At minimum such an outfit would be prime blackmail material; but surprise surprise when he discovered that Vampires are actually real and his current criminal Rivals. I think it very likely that long before Marcone started taking the Yellow Pages Wizard seriously, his organization had some run-in's with rival Muscle that was inexplicably durable and/or fanged, and he wanted to know why.
OR..It was all Vadderung. We dont actually know when Marcone and Monoc connected, only that he didnt yet have Gard back in SF. But I could easily see the All-Father taking the pulling strings to build up the Good King Johnny into something useful, and given his general MO he could have been doing it as far back as Persephone or earlier
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Dead Beat occurs 5 years after Storm Front. We should assume that Marcone didn't become aware of the Supernatural world much before Storm Front.
IIRC, in Dead Beat, Marcone said that Bony Tony had acquired the locker that had contained the Word of Kemmler sometime before Dead Beat. Further, Marcone had given Tony permission to liquidate the contents, after Marcone got the pick of the lot. The impression I got was that this transaction between Tony and Marcone was some time before DB. It could even have been years before hand.
I think Marcone learned about the truth of the Supernatural not long before SF, due to Victor Sells activities, but confirmed it with Harry and the Soulgaze. After that, Tony's revelation to Marcone just let him know that the scope of the supernatural was much larger than he previously knew. That is why he finally sought out the services of Monoc.
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That and the fact that Bony Tony got hold of (at least in part) a Supernatural Being's treasure hoard. That would have clued Marcone in too.
Well, it has a magical book. But so does Artemis Bock, the guy who has a book that includes a spell for summoning the Erlking. Doesn't make him a supernatural being.
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Dead Beat occurs 5 years after Storm Front. We should assume that Marcone didn't become aware of the Supernatural world much before Storm Front.
For the sake of argument (the Bony Tony connection) or do you have any specific that limits him to recent (as of SF) introduction? He knew enough detail about the supernatural world to have learned of Soul Gazes, which Id think could conceivably take a lot longer than that (especially pre-Paranet)
Well, it has a magical book. But so does Artemis Bock, the guy who has a book that includes a spell for summoning the Erlking. Doesn't make him a supernatural being.
Eh, Bock had stocked a copy of a Published if rare book written by a prominent and living member of the White Council, it was only interesting because it turned out the Kemmlerites needed it for the Erlking. Bony Tony found one of Kemmler's original manuscripts, specifically the one of the four that Kemmler had not widely shared, and which had been on the Council's Burn List since WWII.
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We don't know that Tony was looking for the Word of Kemmler. We just know it was part of an estate of someone reasonably wealthy.
It could've been the estate of someone very much on the supernatural side. Or it could've been the estate of someone's wealthy-but-loony aunt who had a taste for the occult.
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We don't know that Tony was looking for the Word of Kemmler. We just know it was part of an estate of someone reasonably wealthy.
It could've been the estate of someone very much on the supernatural side. Or it could've been the estate of someone's wealthy-but-loony aunt who had a taste for the occult.
Excellent point. Frankly if he'd known what he had I suspect he would have taken more dramatic steps, or ideally been wise enough to walk away with just the art. We do know Bony Tony was clued in enough to take steps against Wizards (ie. concealing the Word via technology) but not how much he know prior to that score, or how much specifics he knew about the Word itself. It would have likely been stored in some fashion that screamed Valuable, either a display or a hiding place.
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If he knew about how dangerous it was, he'd have probably told Marcone, since Marcone was the one who gave him advice on how to hide it from wizards. At which point Marcone would probably use it to get some sort of concessions/payment from the White Council or just burn it himself. Because something like that is basically a nuclear weapon that only someone else can use. It benefits Marcone not to keep it around if he can't use it.
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I could totally see Marcone keeping it, and using it later, if needs be, to elevate himself in the supernatural world.
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I could totally see Marcone keeping it, and using it later, if needs be, to elevate himself in the supernatural world.
Bargaining tool if nothing else, I just dont see him actually burning it. Hell, Id only give it 50/50 that the White Council itself would completely destroy such knowledge.
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I'm still of the opinion that Marcone will look for some way to extend his life. A darkhallow would do it.
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I'm still of the opinion that Marcone will look for some way to extend his life. A darkhallow would do it.
Possibly, but only a surgical one. He wouldn't do it if it meant kids dying.
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I'm still of the opinion that Marcone will look for some way to extend his life. A darkhallow would do it.
A Darkhallow worth a damn would be wholesale slaughter on a massive scale. And while I doubt his code is as noble as some folks here like to think, he still does have a code, that I don't think includes mass murder. Plus, it's a safe bet that you have to be a wizard to perform it, which Marcone is not. Plus Plus the freedom of Choice Marcone would most likely have to give up to get power on that scale.
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A Darkhallow worth a damn would be wholesale slaughter on a massive scale. And while I doubt his code is as noble as some folks here like to think, he still does have a code, that I don't think includes mass murder. Plus, it's a safe bet that you have to be a wizard to perform it, which Marcone is not. Plus Plus the freedom of Choice Marcone would most likely have to give up to get power on that scale.
Agreed, he probably would not do it. Massive slaughter isn't generally profitable.
Where do you get that he would lose freedom of Choice? Ascension to immortality is akin to taking on a Mantle, but we haven't been given any info on what kind of obligations the Darkhallow would bestow. Now, sure, Immortals are under a lot more scrutiny by the powers that be, but that isn't removal of choice. It's the practical restraint of action based on presented consequences.
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Where do you get that he would lose freedom of Choice? Ascension to immortality is akin to taking on a Mantle, but we haven't been given any info on what kind of obligations the Darkhallow would bestow. Now, sure, Immortals are under a lot more scrutiny by the powers that be, but that isn't removal of choice. It's the practical restraint of action based on presented consequences.
I don't know that he would for sure, but I think he probably would. Combining the WoJ about Power and Purpose generally being linked, plus Mab's restrictions, and the fact that she ascended through something much like a Darkhallow, makes me think that it would come with some kind of restrictions. But maybe not, we didn't see for sure what would have happened had Cowl succeeded, obviously.
Specifically, while Immortals are under more scrutiny, there are also limitations beyond just cause and effect. There are certain things that Mab can not do, regardless of who saw it or other consequences. Things like lying flat out, or being purely charitable or otherwise going against her Nature.
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Agreed, he probably would not do it. Massive slaughter isn't generally profitable.
True, but that's only an issue if it's /human/ slaughter. I maintain that Chitzen Itza would make the perfect place for a Darkhallow but would be sucking dense Life of an entire Jungle ecosystem rather than just that of the human (and presumably pet & vermin) populations of an Urban jungle. It would be a Quality over Quantity thing on the Life Sucking side (assuming Zombie necro rules apply), and on the Spirit side they have all those sacrificial Dead from millennia of Bloodsport and vampiric rule; waaaay better than just some generic native American Hunter spirits.
Where do you get that he would lose freedom of Choice? Ascension to immortality is akin to taking on a Mantle, but we haven't been given any info on what kind of obligations the Darkhallow would bestow. Now, sure, Immortals are under a lot more scrutiny by the powers that be, but that isn't removal of choice. It's the practical restraint of action based on presented consequences.
The strong implication from a bunch of WOJ's is that Free Will (in the cosmic superpower sense) is exclusive to Mortals, and thus to become truly Immortal (in the Mantle Sense) is to loose that soul. We know that is guaranteed (though not instantaneous) for Molly, for example.
The best theory/framework Ive come up with is that Mantles are solidified True Names (where Names are themselves an aspect of The Self along side the Body, Spirit, Soul, etc) that have gained enough energy and/or momentum to outlast their original composite form, not unlike how a Spirit-ghost can be described as /Memories/ that have gained enough energy to exist beyond their original Self. This Solidified power is incompatible with whatever fluid Soulness it is that lets Mortals Change their Names and Themselves and The Universe Itself via Choice. FWIW, it was also theorized that part of the Normal Soul function of a person relies on that thing Bob talks about where Soul chunks get passed to loved ones through Hugs and whatnot; the idea is that normal mortals trade and regenerate Soul regularly, but becoming a Mantled Immortal would freeze the human Host's ability to regenerate their own Soul. So they'd be left with a Finite supply rather than the renewable resource that Bob described to harry. So if she wanted to keep her soul Longer, she needs to maintain as many Real human relationships (family, friends, etc) as possible so that she can get a regular influx of Soul through those interactions. Thus, to loose her connection to her Mortal Life would be to LITERALLY loose her soul.
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I don't know that Mantles are necessarily Names as well. Keep in mind that Hercules the mantle has now become The Incredible Hulk the mantle, and while they both have the same aspect of overwhelming strength, there's a major difference between the two.
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I don't know that Mantles are necessarily Names as well. Keep in mind that Hercules the mantle has now become The Incredible Hulk the mantle, and while they both have the same aspect of overwhelming strength, there's a major difference between the two.
True but I have two counterpoints to that: 1) that Overwhelming Strength is the only thing that links them, so for one to have naturally(?) evolve to the other would indicate that those other differences are immaterial, and 2) Hercules used to be Heracleese who used to be Hercle (in the older Etruscan), so even the big Ol' Important Names can Change (in terms of usage and popular phonetics) while retaining their Core Identity, which is what Im theorizing that the True Name actually is, as an offshoot of the more elaborate theory on the Egyptian Five-part Self definition.
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Plus besides green the comparison is pretty spot on, berserker warrior known for sometimes uncontrollable bloodlust. Your thinking popular view, but if popular view were most important Mab would have changed into Elsa by now, or the fairie would at least have drifted from the originals....
besides, this is all a huge misunderstanding. immaterial, but iirc Jim said, "Hulk" no definitive article by placing 'the' before it.... combine this with what we know about Greek Gods trying to stay relevant by Wrestling and we simply have a case of mistaken Hulkity. Baldor is probably the Macho Man too.
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Plus besides green the comparison is pretty spot on, berserker warrior known for sometimes uncontrollable bloodlust. Your thinking popular view, but if popular view were most important Mab would have changed into Elsa by now, or the fairie would at least have drifted from the originals....
I figure it has to do with some sort of Momentum and the actual span of Living Human Memory (which should include all the long-lived magic users, even Binder). Hercules likely landed on the Hulk more because it was un-anchored at the time, rather than popular opinion being strong enough to change Current Mantle-holders. Otherwise Santa would look more like his current Coca-Cola inspired pop image rather than the Sword-wielding viking hunter we met.
besides, this is all a huge misunderstanding. immaterial, but iirc Jim said, "Hulk" no definitive article by placing 'the' before it.... combine this with what we know about Greek Gods trying to stay relevant by Wrestling and we simply have a case of mistaken Hulkity. Baldor is probably the Macho Man too.
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True, but that's only an issue if it's /human/ slaughter. I maintain that Chitzen Itza would make the perfect place for a Darkhallow but would be sucking dense Life of an entire Jungle ecosystem rather than just that of the human (and presumably pet & vermin) populations of an Urban jungle. It would be a Quality over Quantity thing on the Life Sucking side (assuming Zombie necro rules apply), and on the Spirit side they have all those sacrificial Dead from millennia of Bloodsport and vampiric rule; waaaay better than just some generic native American Hunter spirits. The strong implication from a bunch of WOJ's is that Free Will (in the cosmic superpower sense) is exclusive to Mortals, and thus to become truly Immortal (in the Mantle Sense) is to loose that soul. We know that is guaranteed (though not instantaneous) for Molly, for example.
The best theory/framework Ive come up with is that Mantles are solidified True Names (where Names are themselves an aspect of The Self along side the Body, Spirit, Soul, etc) that have gained enough energy and/or momentum to outlast their original composite form, not unlike how a Spirit-ghost can be described as /Memories/ that have gained enough energy to exist beyond their original Self. This Solidified power is incompatible with whatever fluid Soulness it is that lets Mortals Change their Names and Themselves and The Universe Itself via Choice. FWIW, it was also theorized that part of the Normal Soul function of a person relies on that thing Bob talks about where Soul chunks get passed to loved ones through Hugs and whatnot; the idea is that normal mortals trade and regenerate Soul regularly, but becoming a Mantled Immortal would freeze the human Host's ability to regenerate their own Soul. So they'd be left with a Finite supply rather than the renewable resource that Bob described to harry. So if she wanted to keep her soul Longer, she needs to maintain as many Real human relationships (family, friends, etc) as possible so that she can get a regular influx of Soul through those interactions. Thus, to loose her connection to her Mortal Life would be to LITERALLY loose her soul.
Attempted metaphorical paraphrase: so Generic Immortality changes the state of your essence from liquid to solid. This prevents you from changing yourself. Your character will not deepen, your virtues and vices will remain at a constant level, and your perspective becomes fixed. It doesn't mean you cannot choose to do X action over Y action, but that your basis for the final decision is always filtered through the same thought processes and emotional reactions. In exchange for these limitations, you become unable to die and gain a magical/cosmic power boost.
Mantled Immortality retains the stipulations above, but adds to them. For instance, Molly, in becoming the Winter Lady, is not only having her personality frozen (haha), it is being added to whilst being frozen. The tendencies of Winter (predation, coldness, pragmatism, ruthlessness) are slowly being added to who she is with every choice she makes to embrace those aspects. Once added, they are immutable. She will eventually become a completely solid entity of Winter, no longer capable changing and choosing as a Mortal would. In addition to these personality changes, because it's the Winter Mantle, the inability to deliberately lie has been ingrained into her, as has an essential vulnerability to cold iron. On the positive front, she gains a greater power boost than Generic Immortals would because of the additional restrictions of Winter and Fae.
Am I understanding correctly?
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Attempted metaphorical paraphrase: so Generic Immortality changes the state of your essence from liquid to solid. This prevents you from changing yourself. Your character will not deepen, your virtues and vices will remain at a constant level, and your perspective becomes fixed. It doesn't mean you cannot choose to do X action over Y action, but that your basis for the final decision is always filtered through the same thought processes and emotional reactions. In exchange for these limitations, you become unable to die and gain a magical/cosmic power boost.
Mantled Immortality retains the stipulations above, but adds to them. For instance, Molly, in becoming the Winter Lady, is not only having her personality frozen (haha), it is being added to whilst being frozen. The tendencies of Winter (predation, coldness, pragmatism, ruthlessness) are slowly being added to who she is with every choice she makes to embrace those aspects. Once added, they are immutable. She will eventually become a completely solid entity of Winter, no longer capable changing and choosing as a Mortal would. In addition to these personality changes, because it's the Winter Mantle, the inability to deliberately lie has been ingrained into her, as has an essential vulnerability to cold iron. On the positive front, she gains a greater power boost than Generic Immortals would because of the additional restrictions of Winter and Fae.
Am I understanding correctly?
You got it right save for the difference between "Mantled Immortality" and "Generic Immortality". Everything I describe would, as far as I understand things, would fall under the "Mantled Immortality" category. What Id call "Generic Immortality" would be more like "Racial Immortality" a combination of Agelessess and Supernatural Durability, but they can be killed any day of the week (if you are strong enough, anyway). Lara or Arianna or even Lea are all examples of beings that will not naturally Die, but that do not have actual Mantles and so can be killed outside of Conjunctions. Of those example, only Lara has a Soul and is capable of Free Will, making her (and the White Court) an example of the Half-born that are still Human enough for some purposes (like being Winter Knight, for example). By contrast, the Queens and any Eldests we've met (Cat Sith, Scarcrow, Eldest Gruff) are Mantled beings that would fall under the framework outlined above. Also Ill add that per WOJ the Lying bit and the general focus on Duty and Obligation are not universal, those are particular to the Fae courts and fae Mantles. In the case of a Darkhallow birthing a new Mantle, it would most probably fall under the "You Are What You Eat" law of things such that even if you went that route, youd be warped by the nature of the Power you ate (in DBs case it was Hunter spirits and lots of Death, likely to birth a naturally hostile entity) just as much as Molly is being pushed by the Winter nature of her mantle now.
Note that I have no real idea how Angels fit into this, as they are the only known example of a truly immortal entity that also has a Soul (since they are ALL soul).
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I figure it has to do with some sort of Momentum and the actual span of Living Human Memory (which should include all the long-lived magic users, even Binder). Hercules likely landed on the Hulk more because it was un-anchored at the time, rather than popular opinion being strong enough to change Current Mantle-holders. Otherwise Santa would look more like his current Coca-Cola inspired pop image rather than the Sword-wielding viking hunter we met.
Landed on the Hulk due to the Hulk having what in common with Herc before[/] said anchorage? He'd not be the Hulk to become the Hulk if you see what I mean?
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On the subject of the Darkhollow, doing that for immortality is probably not unlike using a jumbo jet for a reading light.
Yes, it's one of the things that's included, but it's effectively a minor side-effect compared to everything else.
For all we know, all you need for just immortality is the Philosopher Stone (or the nearest equivalent) and the knowledge to make those potions.
I will also point out that Gard appears to be functionally immortal, but still reads as very human to Harry's senses.
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Landed on the Hulk due to the Hulk having what in common with Herc before[/] said anchorage? He'd not be the Hulk to become the Hulk if you see what I mean?
Let try to restate that thought: THe WOJ said that the Hercules Mantle passed on to the Hulk and sort of exists in the Minds and Imaginations of people now. I dont think that sort of drift association would have happened if the mantle had been held by an active host in that intervening Time. If Hercules had Lived I dont think he would have turned Green. The Mantle only got stuck in the Collective Imagination (never to return?) because it's host died and unlike the Fairy Queens his didnt apparently have such a structured mechanism for new host ascension.
There are still mantles hanging around from Greek times. Greco-Roman mythology, **unintelligible** mythology. The gods are also around, in one form or another, most of them are around. Some of them got themselves killed. Because lets face it, some of those guys were idiots.
And I mean, you go back there and read, and it’s like, how could you possibly have survived that? The answer in the Dresden Files is that they didn't. They *unintelligible* up til they died. Sorry, Hercules, you can only go slamming your head into walls for so long. And if your mantle passed on to The Hulk, it sort of exists in people’s minds and imaginations now.
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FWIW, it was also theorized that part of the Normal Soul function of a person relies on that thing Bob talks about where Soul chunks get passed to loved ones through Hugs and whatnot; the idea is that normal mortals trade and regenerate Soul regularly, but becoming a Mantled Immortal would freeze the human Host's ability to regenerate their own Soul. So they'd be left with a Finite supply rather than the renewable resource that Bob described to harry. So if she wanted to keep her soul Longer, she needs to maintain as many Real human relationships (family, friends, etc) as possible so that she can get a regular influx of Soul through those interactions. Thus, to loose her connection to her Mortal Life would be to LITERALLY loose her soul.
I saw this and wondered if it would explain to a degree of why Mab had a 'Human Behaviors' BBF coach in Sarissa. Her connection to Sarissa as mother and daughter allowed her to retain some of her humanity by keeping up a relationship that allowed her human soul a small anchor in the human world.
From that I wonder what the fallout will be now that Mab no longer has that? Does she have any other decendents in the human world that she can anchor to or is she now going to drift even further in to the winter power.
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I saw this and wondered if it would explain to a degree of why Mab had a 'Human Behaviors' BBF coach in Sarissa. Her connection to Sarissa as mother and daughter allowed her to retain some of her humanity by keeping up a relationship that allowed her human soul a small anchor in the human world.
From that I wonder what the fallout will be now that Mab no longer has that? Does she have any other decendents in the human world that she can anchor to or is she now going to drift even further in to the winter power.
I think Molly can help with that for a while.
I'm currently picturing Molly inviting Mab to the Carpenters' Thanksgiving dinner, and enjoying the Man Out of Time tropes that are springing up.
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Do you think the familial connection was important for her anchor? or will any mortal contact work? And would does Molly have enough soul to count. or maybe as you suggest just for a bit, but by then hopefully she has anchored Mab with her family?
As an aside for get the 'prince albert in a can' jokes can you imagine Charity and Mab fighting for Alpha female over dinner :-\
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I think that a familial connection makes a mortal anchor more effective. I doubt it's all that matters, but I think it does make a significant difference.
On the plus side, there are enough Carpenters for Molly to pretty much never run out of family. She's got, what, six siblings? Within one generation, she could have between six and thirty six nieces and nephews if they all start families of their own.
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I'm currently picturing Molly inviting Mab to the Carpenters' Thanksgiving dinner, and enjoying the Man Out of Time tropes that are springing up.
Imagine if she brought Kringle as a plus one...
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I think Mab should get invited to the Murphy's family reunion :)
Mab's knight and consort is after all in a relationship w/ Murphy. And Harry has already been to one Murphy family reunion, why not another w/ his boss in tow.
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Imagine if she brought Kringle as a plus one...
No way, she'd bring Ramirez. And Uriel'd get to carve.
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No way, she'd bring Ramirez. And Uriel'd get to carve.
I meant Mab bring Kringle as a plus one in response to Molly's invitation.
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I meant Mab bring Kringle as a plus one in response to Molly's invitation.
Somehow I think that sort of thing would be way too complicated. Between Mab and Kringle, I mean. Nothing is every simply, or casual, or unimportant with those two. So together there would inevitably be SOME sort of bargain, and knowledge/power brochuring going on. I almost think they literally CANT just show up to a BBQ and have a good time (Sarissa training nothwithstanding).
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I meant Mab bring Kringle as a plus one in response to Molly's invitation.
Oh that's way funnier.