You may be on to something with the raising of armies. The WC can't do that because they don't operate in the open. Harry does and may become something of a celebrity which could give him an even bigger following.
Only Marcone/Namshiel, Mab, Hades and Anna Valmont know that Harry has the knife. Nicodemus surely suspects it but only those four can say it with certainty.
Oh I think once Harry was able to jail Ethinu that secret is out.And Anduriel might have watched the whole thing.
While the White Council may not know that Harry has the Spear of Destiny, they know he's the Warden of Demonreach (They can't be in denial about that any longer.) and he had the power to bind and imprison Ethniu from the shores of Lake Michigan. Harry didn't have to lure the Titan to the island and the Council leadership would have no way to know that Harry was operating at the limit of the Island's power. On top of that, Harry pretty much told Carlos that he not only had Ethniu, but that he could control her to do his bidding. And he explicitly said, "That's a threat."Rashid knew everything except for maybe the Spear.
There might be several other magical artifacts that would have allowed Harry to do what he did, we can't be certain. What the Senior Council can be certain of is that Harry has something, very powerful, that allowed him to get the job done. On a related subject I wonder about the placard that Harry convinced Mac to hang up in his bar. Is it still there or did Mac take it down afterwards? The reason I wonder about this is all it would take to give the Senior Council a big clue is for Ramirez to have stopped at Mac's for a beer before he left town. (Maybe because he wanted a beer and maybe to ask some questions.) My guess is that a wizard would be able to detect the power coming off of that thing, even if they couldn't identify it. It's likely a description of that item would be enough to make someone on the Senior Council realize what it is and figure out what else Harry might have in his possession.
Finally, remember that in Turncoat, the Gatekeeper found it disturbing that the "little folk" were organizing, and that was probably based on nothing more than rumors that couldn't be substantiated. It was one of those unnatural occurrences, similar to the sky raining toads that told the Gatekeeper that something extraordinary and dangerous was occurring. Finally learning that Harry was the reason for this organization and that he controlled their purpose must have really freaked the older wizards out, because if a mortal could control an army of small fae, that could mean he could control an army of large fae. Oh wait, Harry did command an army of large fae during the battle. I think it would have been hard for Cristos, Ebenezer and LTW not notice that at the vanguard of Harry's mortal forces was a screen of some really nasty members of the Winter Court. So, their worst fears were confirmed.
You may be on to something with the raising of armies. The WC can't do that because they don't operate in the open. Harry does and may become something of a celebrity which could give him an even bigger following.
Only Marcone/Namshiel, Mab, Hades and Anna Valmont know that Harry has the knife. Nicodemus surely suspects it but only those four can say it with certainty.
Finally, remember that in Turncoat, the Gatekeeper found it disturbing that the "little folk" were organizing, and that was probably based on nothing more than rumors that couldn't be substantiated. It was one of those unnatural occurrences, similar to the sky raining toads that told the Gatekeeper that something extraordinary and dangerous was occurring. Finally learning that Harry was the reason for this organization and that he controlled their purpose must have really freaked the older wizards out, because if a mortal could control an army of small fae, that could mean he could control an army of large fae. Oh wait, Harry did command an army of large fae during the battle. I think it would have been hard for Cristos, Ebenezer and LTW not notice that at the vanguard of Harry's mortal forces was a screen of some really nasty members of the Winter Court. So, their worst fears were confirmed.The bottom line is Harry can raise an army, loyal to him and effective, for all their power Christos, Eb, and LTW cannot, that makes him very dangerous.
Harry never got close enough to attack Ethniu with the Spear. If he had, i could see people connecting the dots. As it is, only those people I namedknow that Harry has the actual Spear. Most just think he has a powerful magical artifact.Well never succeeded at any rate, he still made the attempt before getting parried.
Well never succeeded at any rate, he still made the attempt before getting parried.The physical part of it, Harry knew he'd not get close enough because her reflexes were still
Eb called in an army in Changes.
Eb called in an army in Changes.
In Battle Ground Harry was able to do something the most powerful wizards on the planet cannot do. Raise a loyal army.@vincentric: The favor he called in was an army. So Eb literally raised a loyal army. They fought and died for him. As far as we know, they had no interest in Chichen Itza.
I wouldn't call that an army.They showed up by the hundreds. Don't call it an army if you like, but many wouldn't call a bunch of pixies an army either.
they didn't show out of loyalty to Eb.Neither did the pixies. They showed up to protect pizza. Toot seemed a little nonplussed about Harry being in danger. The Kenku were just as loyal to Eb as the fairies are to Harry. It's all about debt and obligation. As soon as Harry owes them more than they owe him, the loyalty will be gone.
@vincentric: The favor he called in was an army. So Eb literally raised a loyal army. They fought and died for him. As far as we know, they had no interest in Chichen Itza.
They showed up by the hundreds. Don't call it an army if you like, but many wouldn't call a bunch of pixies an army either.
Neither did the pixies. They showed up to protect pizza. Toot seemed a little nonplussed about Harry being in danger. The Kenku were just as loyal to Eb as the fairies are to Harry. It's all about debt and obligation. As soon as Harry owes them more than they owe him, the loyalty will be gone.
Neither did the pixies. They showed up to protect pizza. Toot seemed a little nonplussed about Harry being in danger. The Kenku were just as loyal to Eb as the fairies are to Harry. It's all about debt and obligation. As soon as Harry owes them more than they owe him, the loyalty will be gone.
They showed up by the hundreds. Don't call it an army if you like, but many wouldn't call a bunch of pixies an army either.
The little folk could also be used as assassins. Maybe not that easily and Harry would not really think about it under normal circumstances but evil monster and destroyer Harry could use them with devastating results.
It is more than just the pizza, Toot made that clear, when Harry freed his brothers and sisters from the White Court captivity, he gained their loyalty for all time. Not sure what will happen though if he does marry Lara, there might not be enough pizza to make up for that.
Nope, there were twelve of them, the Grey Council, yeah maybe as powerful as hundreds, but still only twelve.
As I see it, the primary difference is that Eb had to call in a favor.I think another big difference is what the armies are capable of.
It is more than just the pizza, Toot made that clear, when Harry freed his brothers and sisters from the White Court captivity, he gained their loyalty for all time.Emphasis added. Where are you getting that?
@Mira -- the "army" was the Kenku.Yep.
The only other wizard I can think of that had/has disciples/followers on that level, was Kemmler.
Where are you getting that?
I waved a hand. "The Guard's pay won't change. I'll order extra to pay for the new guy's service. Call them the Za-Lord's Militia. We only need them sometimes. How many do you think would agree to that?
Toot buzzed in an excited circle. "For you? Every sprite and pixie and dewdrop faerie within a hundred miles knows that you saved our kind from being imprisoned by the Cold Eyes! There's not one who didn't have comrade or kin languishing in durance vile!"
Turn Coat pages287-288That's Harry doing them a favour, not Harry earning eternal loyalty.
Then Harry made Toot his major recruiter for the Militia and gave him his rank of Major-General Minimus, commander of the Za-Lord's Elite.
I'm pretty sure that the White Christ (as Mab called him in Changes) had disciples/followers on that level too.Not a wizard though.
Not a wizard though.Only dead for three days. Harry.....
That's Harry doing them a favour, not Harry earning eternal loyalty.
Not a wizard though.
@vincentric: The favor he called in was an army. So Eb literally raised a loyal army. They fought and died for him. As far as we know, they had no interest in Chichen Itza.I mean, soldiers are paid (at least they have been for a couple thousand years. Read "Why the West Won" for a more complete explanation on the thesis that professional volunteer armies were the primary reason that Western Civilization survived and expanded rather than being eaten up by entities like Persia (who had armies primarily consisting of slaves and levies)).
They showed up by the hundreds. Don't call it an army if you like, but many wouldn't call a bunch of pixies an army either.
Neither did the pixies. They showed up to protect pizza. Toot seemed a little nonplussed about Harry being in danger. The Kenku were just as loyal to Eb as the fairies are to Harry. It's all about debt and obligation. As soon as Harry owes them more than they owe him, the loyalty will be gone.
What Eb did in Changes is, I would argue, qualitatively different from what Harry did. It's closer to Marcone hiring the Einherjaren. They're Marcone's to command, but they're not his army. The Guard is most definitely Harry's, regardless of their motivation.
Harry's treatment of the faeries made them sympathetic and willing but they aren't bound. At least I don't think they are.I don't believe they are either, yes, pizza is important, but it is also how Harry treats them, he has earned their loyalty. This is what caught the attention of the Senior Council on that roof top in Battle Ground.
Yes, Major-General Toot and the Za'Guard are paid well in the form of pizza, but their loyalty to Harry goes a bit deeper. Harry didn't insist on Toot's friends and relatives and their friends and relatives on being freed from the White Court light show as a favor to gain something in return. HeIt is clearly shown that Mab and the redcap only have a limited understanding of the relationship between Harry and Toot and the white council probably understand it even less.
did it because it was the right thing to do. That is what Toot was saying when he said, "for you." Toot and his pals supposedly have short term memories, but apparently not about everything, this is one of those things.I don't believe they are either, yes, pizza is important, but it is also how Harry treats them, he has earned their loyalty. This is what caught the attention of the Senior Council on that roof top in Battle Ground.
It is clearly shown that Mab and the redcap only have a limited understanding of the relationship between Harry and Toot and the white council probably understand it even less.
What Eb did in Changes is, I would argue, qualitatively different from what Harry did.True, and if the statement was that what Harry did that frightened the Senior Council was maintain a loyal army instead of raising one, I would agree that he did such a thing. I'm not sure if that is why the Senior Council is afraid of him. I think it's more everything he's done, including being born as he was. I also think it might be more that Harry got the "Little Foldk, Wyld Fae, [to] band[] together and organiz[e]," as Rashid put it, than that Harry raised or even maintained an army. Side Note:
On that note... what happens when Einrherjaren die in the mortal realm? Do they go back to Valhalla? Can they fight again? Do they have... resurrective immortality?I think they do go back to Valhalla to fight again, but I think they have to be resurrected by Odin again. There was a discussion here about whether their re-resurrections cost Odin anything. We now know their initial resurrections are done with soulfire. I think their re-resurrections probably involve the same thing. I don't know it, but there usually isn't a free lunch in the Dresden Files.
Harry didn't insist on Toot's friends and relatives and their friends and relatives on being freed from the White Court light show as a favor to gain something in return. HeI don't think motivations matter much to the Little Folk. I also don't think they would understand "the right thing." Toot is pretty alien in his thinking.
did it because it was the right thing to do.
it is also how Harry treats themI do think how Harry treats them is important. Fairies don't take insults lightly. (Remember Thomas calling Cat Sith a freak?) I imagine most people near Harry's level insult the Little Folk almost reflexively if/when they deal with them. This would greatly lessen the debt owed. Harry works hard to not insult them. Which is honestly surprising given how he can't help but insult people/beings, both great and small.
This is what caught the attention of the Senior Council on that roof top in Battle Ground.But they didn't do it out of loyalty to Harry. They did it to protect pizza.
The Little folk aren't bound but a number of them are vassals and the volunteers come for the pizza and the debt they owe to Harry for the rescue.The only thing I'd change is that they are bound only to the extent that any of the fae are bound by obligations and debt.
I don't think motivations matter much to the Little Folk. I also don't think they would understand "the right thing." Toot is pretty alien in his thinking.I think for Toot toot (and later on, little folks soldiers), Harry is their king because he treated him/them nice while no one else does (except the ones close to him), and not only that, he's pretty much their only pizza dealer. Without him they wouldn't know where pizza came to be. To them not only he's the only drug dealer in town, he's the nicest dealer too, he listens to them, keeps his words, so especially for Toot toot he's the closest to a friend he ever has outside of his own species.
I do think how Harry treats them is important. Fairies don't take insults lightly. (Remember Thomas calling Cat Sith a freak?) I imagine most people near Harry's level insult the Little Folk almost reflexively if/when they deal with them. This would greatly lessen the debt owed. Harry works hard to not insult them. Which is honestly surprising given how he can't help but insult people/beings, both great and small.
But they didn't do it out of loyalty to Harry. They did it to protect pizza.
The only thing I'd change is that they are bound only to the extent that any of the fae are bound by obligations and debt.
It is clearly shown that Mab and the redcap only have a limited understanding of the relationship between Harry and Toot and the white council probably understand it even less.
Harry had no bargain. He began giving pizza, which is of ultimate value to the Little Folk, without strings. Their acceptance creates an obligation for them to provide something he values even as they value the pizza- so yes, I think the Guard are lifelong feal-bound servants. They value pizza over their lives- they'll go to war for it!- so pledging the lives of some of their own fits. Perhaps it's one per pizza he normally provides.
Yeah, sort of, it was not gift I think, he bribed them. What Harry did was bribing them to some effect because he valued their past & future help.
The cause of fealty for wyld faes is probably different than what we know of the courts. Although from their lack of creepiness nature, I'd tend to think they'd have to be descendants/creatures from Summer's side, Toot toot & co were independent IIRC since they were ignored by both sides (perhaps no one thought they'd be useful for anything), it's likely that their fealty is theirs to give, that for any type of (independent) wyld faes it's just a matter of being left alone or end up at the mercy of Winter or Summer sidhes' will. So unless given or taken, nothing binds them, which means no obligations to pick court sides, unlike faes who were born from the bloodlines of both courts (or maybe just sidhes, creatures don't have that much freedom).
But I strongly suspect it's deeper than just transactional level of bargains, once they pick/get picked they can't switch to any other side.
I have long thought much was overlooked here.
Harry has no bargain granting the Guard. Normally, you bargain with milk, bread, and honey for information. Toot, perhaps out of friendship, perhaps greed, told Harry pizza was even more valued.
Harry had no bargain. He began giving pizza, which is of ultimate value to the Little Folk, without strings. Their acceptance creates an obligation for them to provide something he values even as they value the pizza- so yes, I think the Guard are lifelong feal-bound servants. They value pizza over their lives- they'll go to war for it!- so pledging the lives of some of their own fits. Perhaps it's one per pizza he normally provides.
Wouldn't surprise me to find that each "clan" of the Little Folk supplies a member, and when one falls another grows much larger quickly.
I also think there's an implied joke with their being "dockworkers of the Nevernever" and their power when organized. This is Chicagah, an' 'Arry's Hoffa.
Or they are obligated to Toot. He is the one that organizes everything at pixie level.
I think the Guard are lifelong feal-bound servants. They value pizza over their lives- they'll go to war for it!- so pledging the lives of some of their own fits. Perhaps it's one per pizza he normally provides.Lifelong commitments are pretty long when you're biologically immortal. Toot's tenancy in the Chicago area is strongly implied to predate Europeans.
Yeah, sort of, it was not gift I think, he bribed them.There really isn't a difference between a gift and a payment for faeries.
As to the alignment of Wyldfae, this is explained by Toot himself in Summer Knight. When the Courts move to war, the Wyldfae find themselves drawn karmically to whichever Court is closest to their most recent behavior (the line is something like "if you've been doing mean stuff recently, you go to Winter")- the dewdrop faeries are normally Summer aligned, but Toot's group at that point are loyal to Harry.I'm pretty sure Toot said "cold things" and "warm things."
Reading Summer Knight, it's not clear if the dewdrops were in the bag with the boxcutters, or Harry was able to summon them. Mab specifically notes that "it is rare for a mortal to be able to Call the Fae"- note the capitol? I think, even this early, that the Summer and Winter Courts sent out a call to the Wyldfae to join the court most closely aligned with their loyalty- and the proto-Guard showed up at Harry over *either* Court, and he was able to "Call" or summon them to him to defeat Aurora.IMO, they were in the bag. The changelings talked about feeling the Call. I don't think it was a summons. Toot and his crew were called by Harry and thus served neither Winter nor Summer, but served Harry.
At first there was a balance between the pizza provided and what Toot did for Harry.I don't think there ever really has been. Harry is constantly giving them pizza starting in the epilogue of SF. Throughout the series, whenever he has a specific job for them, he bargains with them for a specific amount of pizza.
Lifelong commitments are pretty long when you're biologically immortal. Toot's tenancy in the Chicago area is strongly implied to predate Europeans.He is import or he belongs to more than one culture. In Changes he shows his Russian connections with Sanya.
There really isn't a difference between a gift and a payment for faeries.
I'm pretty sure Toot said "cold things" and "warm things."
IMO, they were in the bag. The changelings talked about feeling the Call. I don't think it was a summons. Toot and his crew were called by Harry and thus served neither Winter nor Summer, but served Harry.
I don't think there ever really has been. Harry is constantly giving them pizza starting in the epilogue of SF. Throughout the series, whenever he has a specific job for them, he bargains with them for a specific amount of pizza.
He also leaves more traditional "payment" for them by leaving out pizza in his apartment. In the traditional stories of brownies and such I heard before ever picking up the Dresden Files, the Little Folk were paid by leaving out offerings for them. No direct bargain was ever made.
On that note... what happens when Einrherjaren die in the mortal realm? Do they go back to Valhalla? Can they fight again? Do they have... resurrective immortality?
I think they do go back to Valhalla to fight again, but I think they have to be resurrected by Odin again. There was a discussion here about whether their re-resurrections cost Odin anything. We now know their initial resurrections are done with soulfire. I think their re-resurrections probably involve the same thing. I don't know it, but there usually isn't a free lunch in the Dresden Files.
they got a warrantee, they will get fixed up again if they need it again. All worked into the original price. Like a Craftsman wrench, back in the day.This made me smile. :)
He is import or he belongs to more than one culture. In Changes he shows his Russian connections with Sanya.I've always theorized that he, and other faeries, just a limited intellectus in which the just know things like languages and Winter law.
Not a Free Lunch - when they were resurrected they got a warrantee, they will get fixed up again if they need it again. All worked into the original price. Like a Craftsman wrench, back in the day.I'm arguing, to borrow your analogy, that Craftsman has to replace the wrench. Craftsman decided it was better to make a cheaper wrench that most people wouldn't break than to make a better wrench that professionals would break. I have a friend that used to own a muffler shop. He didn't buy Craftsman because, even though it was "free" to replace the broken wrenches, it was better to not have to stop work to replace a broken wrench.
They will be raised in time for the party. I hope Murphy will enjoy it but she certainly will enjoy fighting outsiders. She always expressed her wish to be involved and this was probably the only way to grant that wish.
If there was a deal with Uriel some sort of free willed choice was involved and Murphy really started to behave like a Viking warrior. Freydis thought it hot.
Didn't Gard tell Harry that they can't be raised until all with memory of them were dead? That even the Allfather couldn't break that rule?Yup.
Didn't Gard tell Harry that they can't be raised until all with memory of them were dead? That even the Allfather couldn't break that rule?Sure she will have to wait a bit but the outsiders will always be there to fight against.
Sure she will have to wait a bit but the outsiders will always be there to fight against.
True, but Gard's statement is ambiguous at best, just what did she mean? Did she mean that Murphy cannot come back as a fighter until everyone who has known her and remembers her are dead? Or that even if she does come back, while we the readers might recognize her immediately as Murphy, Harry and anyone who has ever known her or known of her, won't? Then after she goes away, Harry scratches his head and says, "was that???"Or by the time she comes back Harry is not mortal anymore.
Or by the time she comes back Harry is not mortal anymore.
Problem with that is, he may not be mortal anymore, but that also means he is living. "She won't come back until her memory has faded from all who knew her," her memory will not have faded from his brain. So if Harry is immortal, she may never come back.Harry does not count for this if he is immortal. It was specifically about mortal memory otherwise vadderung can not rise anyone. He has a good memory.
That has been said for many people, but it is not what Gard said. Gard said "the living". I supposed she herself and other Valkyries and gods are excluded, but I don't know what happens with other immortals. Like Mab, for instance.
It is still Murphy. Just a Murphy who is even stronger and more skilled and not afraid to die. But according to Freydis they are not that good as lovers. I am sure she tried.
Is she? In body, perhaps, but she won't be the Murphy Harry knew, not after a couple of hundred years in Valhalla.Harry would not be the same Harry by that time but he also is still Harry
The further away from the last moment, the stranger to each other they will be. Part of what makes a relationship is shared experience. After a year there will be less and less of what made them a couple. After 20 there would be essentially nothing but memories.Except that because they are both immortal they will get a different attitude to time.
The further away from the last moment, the stranger to each other they will be. Part of what makes a relationship is shared experience. After a year there will be less and less of what made them a couple. After 20 there would be essentially nothing but memories.
Except that because they are both immortal they will get a different attitude to time.At which point they are no longer human and as such love isn't in the cards. And neither is friendship. Mab doesn't have a best bud to hang out with. No sleepovers, hen parties or any such nonsense.
At which point they are no longer human and as such love isn't in the cards. And neither is friendship. Mab doesn't have a best bud to hang out with. No sleepovers, hen parties or any such nonsense.That is Mab. We have some indications that they do not all work that way.
That is Mab. We have some indications that they do not all work that way.
Yet Mab loves/d her daughters still and she tells Harry she has had a cohort of lovers that she's buried. Immortals may not express their feeling openly but they still have them. Otherwise all those grudges would be forgotten.
Read first the last microfiction:(click to show/hide)
So? Are Harry and Murphy going to be enemies in the future? No, most likely be fighting on the same side, but it won't be like it was between them, ever...Love maybe not but friendship is definitely possible. Just like a friendship between Molly and Kringle is possible. It has become clear that Mab’s ideas about these things are not absolutely how it has to go and all previous preconceptions are not necessarily always true.
Love maybe not but friendship is definitely possible. Just like a friendship between Molly and Kringle is possible. It has become clear that Mab’s ideas about these things are not absolutely how it has to go and all previous preconceptions are not necessarily always true.
I think Murphy will still be Murphy. Also, Gard said she can't be back but nobody said that Harry can't visit. I suspect he will find a way to at least communicate with her.
In theory, I agree that should happen. A person would change. But in reality I don't think JB wants to change his character. We will see though.
Faded is not the same as gone, it is a little bit vague. It is a slow process.My memory of friends and family who died years ago has faded. My memory of what friends, family, and myself looked like not that many years ago has faded.
My memory of friends and family who died years ago has faded. My memory of what friends, family, and myself looked like not that many years ago has faded.
couldn't be raised if her immediate & extended families are still alive, but i suspect it won't matter when Ragnarok comesYeah, I don't think Ragnarok counts, exactly. Something tells me Murphy will be there.
Or maybe it's only the Allfather (and puny humans-and-other-lesser-supernaturals) limited that way, and greater powers (e.g. Uriel acting through Harry and the tools of TWC's rebirth) could do it. And breaching the shroud of death will be a key part of gathering the mooks for the Apocalypse.
I think Murphy will still be Murphy. Also, Gard said she can't be back but nobody said that Harry can't visit. I suspect he will find a way to at least communicate with her.
There is also this if there was hope for an immortal meeting up with a lover now Einherjar in the distance future, you'd think Gard would say it, she loved Hendricks. All she said was, it wasn't going to happen.
I don't think the memories of the likes of Gard would count in the limitations, only humans. But Hendricks has most likely two big blockers - Harry, and Denarian Host Marcone. They could be alive a long time. Though maybe Marcone would not count as quite human any more - presumably he lost his soul accepting the coin. The Knight mantle did not require renouncing his. Now, does the Lady count? Molly did not volunteer to become Lady, she was possessed....You don’t loose your soul accepting the coin. The knights still try to rescue your soul and it is possible to throw it away like Santa showed. Accepting the coin starts a proces that leads to loosing your soul.
You don’t loose your soul accepting the coin. The knights still try to rescue your soul and it is possible to throw it away like Santa showed. Accepting the coin starts a proces that leads to loosing your soul.
You may be on to something with the raising of armies. The WC can't do that because they don't operate in the open. Harry does and may become something of a celebrity which could give him an even bigger following.
Only Marcone/Namshiel, Mab, Hades and Anna Valmont know that Harry has the knife. Nicodemus surely suspects it but only those four can say it with certainty.
Hey Mira, long time no talk, I hope you're well.
So from his birth he was a potential problem, and has only become more of one over the decades.
I'm good, thanks! ;D And you?Doing good, thank you :)
Well, they forgot a basic rule about keeping pets, no matter how cute and cuddly, stay clear if it can grow up to eat you! ;)
True... Or the whole "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". They instead treated him badly, and drove him away.
I don't think they could make up their mind.The gatekeeper was occupied. The children are known too act irrationally out of fear when he is not there since summer knight.
The gatekeeper was occupied. The children are known too act irrationally out of fear when he is not there since summer knight.
He has been back at least once though, he did the paperwork for Harry when he came back.That was some time ago.
6. Warden of Demonreach
This was a huge one maybe the biggest... Dangerous, man-child, starborn is now in control of the prison that holds dark gods, and evil beings. At this pointmembersthe Merlinwerewas considering having him killed perwords of JimEbeneezer's journal.
Before Peace Talk I did not believe they would do it because it was stupid. And it is.
What is stupid?Kick him out of the white council. If you kick him out without killing him the only thing you do is giving up ways to influence and control him.
Kick him out of the white council. If you kick him out without killing him the only thing you do is giving up ways to influence and control him.
I agree, it is one of the first things I said after reading BG. Fired him of the Council is stupid. To start with, it allows Mab to ask him things she couldn't have asked while he was a Council member. They are afraid of Mab controlling him, but now they are doing things easier for her.
And Harry himself TRIED to control himself when he was a warden. Now, he has no reason for that.
It is like you have a dangerous animal in a cage. You are afraid the animal escapes, do something bad and you are blamed for that. So you decided your best course of action is...set him free. Now they won't blame you. But there is still a dangerous animal in the wild.
It makes him fair game to eliminate as both Warden (so the post can be filled by a sycophant) and more importantly, he's not sporting the Eye but must have the Eye. It's an excuse to axe him and rifle his stuff to find it for the Council.Marcone has the eye. ;D
Power corrupts.
Marcone has the eye. ;D
what? Do you mean people don't know who has it? Because Harry has it
“I mean, I’m not sure where it is,” I said
A little smile played on the corners of Lara’s mouth. “The last I saw,” she said, “you were the one running off with the Eye, Baron.”
“He has given me no reason to disbelieve him, Baron,” Mab said.
It makes him fair game to eliminate as both Warden (so the post can be filled by a sycophant) and more importantly, he's not sporting the Eye but must have the Eye. It's an excuse to axe him and rifle his stuff to find it for the Council.
Power corrupts.
You let out the best of it! The "prove it". :D
Seriously, I don't think that is the case. They cannot move against the Warden "just because" (and it is very dangerous. Harry could release the worst things on them). And it is not easy to replace him with a sycophant. The sycophant would need to best Alfred. The Warden title was vacant for years, it is clear than the White Council was not eager to conquer it.
You let out the best of it! The "prove it". :DI tend to interpret “prove it” as an admission of guilt.
Seriously, I don't think that is the case. They cannot move against the Warden "just because" (and it is very dangerous. Harry could release the worst things on them). And it is not easy to replace him with a sycophant. The sycophant would need to best Alfred. The Warden title was vacant for years, it is clear than the White Council was not eager to conquer it.
I just loved this particular "prove it" because a)it's the same that Marcone told Harry before. b) Harry loved to say it in Marcone's face.Yes it is something criminals say so it is apropriate to say it to a criminal.
Which begs the question..... Where has the other Warden been? I don't know if the Council is capable of doing anything. Didn't Harry use Soulfire to make the connection? I don't know if anyone on the Council can use Soulfire.
Unless until his death, Kemmler was still Warden of Demonreach. Alfred cannot go out and recruit, and the White Council might blame being Warden of Demonreach on how Kemmler ultimately turned out.
Yes, there is a WoJ, but I believe he said that Kemmler was the Warden before the Warden before Dresden. I may be wrong though. JB said that was one of the reasons why the Council is so wary of Dresden.Probably because the other one was Harry’s mother ;D
Or as in an old Peter Baker episode of DR Who, called "The Deadly Assassin," the Doctor, now President of the Council of Galafrey, has all the trouble makers kicked out of the city. He does thatI thought of that too. (Not the Dr. Who comparison, though). It's the only thing besides stupidity and incompetence that makes sense to me.
not just to protect them from an alien invaders capable of reading their minds, but because outside
the city they are able to fight against the invaders something they couldn't do with in.
It makes him fair game to eliminate as both Warden (so the post can be filled by a sycophant) and more importantly, he's not sporting the Eye but must have the Eye. It's an excuse to axe him and rifle his stuff to find it for the Council.I still think that's dumber than declaring him a warlock and killing him. They didn't know he would have the eye until after BG but started the process of kicking him out before BG. Maybe they started the process to get leverage on Harry the Starborn, not to kick him out, but people panicked after BG, and whoever was trying to gain leverage on the Starborn lost control of the situation.
Power corrupts.
Yes, there is a WoJ, but I believe he said that Kemmler was the Warden before the Warden before Dresden. I may be wrong though. JB said that was one of the reasons why the Council is so wary of Dresden.It was either one or two Wardens between Harry and Kemmler. I don't remember.
Wait Kemmler was Warden???? Is there a WOJ on this? I never heard this beforeYeah. There's several new WoJ because he was doing a lot of publicity for BG. There were also a few microfictions like Christmas Eve. Here's a link to links to most of it. https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/farewell-to-2020
I just wanted to link to this description from some time ago, which I think is a good reason why the senior council is concerned about Harry
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/2ae1p5/spoilers_all_harrys_warden_file/&ved=2ahUKEwiZ-_zylLzuAhVjmYsKHTWYDPAQFjABegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw32jFcp6LuC8KG2wlWQ18-O
Wait Kemmler was Warden???? Is there a WOJ on this? I never heard this before
Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?
Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...
Priscellie: Oh god. *laughs*
Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.
Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?
Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.
Priscellie: Is that the only way out?
Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because amon the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I thing he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.
Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?
Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.
Priscellie: Pop goes the weasel for necromancers.
Jim: Exactly.
cheeks. “We need you. You, the good man. I can’t let you hurt that man. Too many of us need him. Your daughter needs him.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 213). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The Council is afraid of him because of what he was designed to be. The first bread crumbs were dropped in Summer Knight and Jim spent an inordinate amount of time throwing it in your face in the last two books. Lea told you part of the tale in Ghost Story. If you want to understand what Jim has been hinting at about Harry, read the fight with the Knights after Murphy is killed. Harry is no longer in the drivers seat, someone else is. As in a completely different personality. He attacks Rudolph with lightning. Here's Butters, telling you directly.
We have different concepts of normal.Wanting to kill the man who just killed the woman you loved is quite normal. Not doing it because of other considerations is also quite normal.
We have different concepts of normal.
Wanting to kill the man who just killed the woman you loved is quite normal. Not doing it because of other considerations is also quite normal.Yes. And why we are very lucky when we have friends like Butters who will try to stop us in those
But your primary instinct is to kill him. The rest is a result of a civilization process that is sometimes so successful that you have lost some contact with your primary instincts. ;D
That is ok. Living with so many people would be impossible otherwise.
Wanting to kill the man who just killed the woman you loved is quite normal. Not doing it because of other considerations is also quite normal.Basically this, a lot of people are only alive because it's illegal to just shank them and breaking laws gets very annoying very quickly.
But your primary instinct is to kill him. The rest is a result of a civilization process that is sometimes so successful that you have lost some contact with your primary instincts. ;D
That is ok. Living with so many people would be impossible otherwise.
“Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 353). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
“Quite. Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.”Now people like to call out to Norse lore here's some for you. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker)
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (pp. 353-354). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
In the Old Norse written corpus, berserkers were those who were said to have fought in a trance-like fury, a characteristic which later gave rise to the modern English word berserk (meaning "furiously violent or out of control"). Berserkers are attested to in numerous Old Norse sources.
Basically this, a lot of people are only alive because it's illegal to just shank them and breaking laws gets very annoying very quickly.For people raised in a civilised and law abiding society it is often more than that. They are conditioned against the use of violence. Some more than others but all more than people raised in say the dark ages were a lot of the current supernaturals came from.
This passage doesn't reflect normal behavior. And the passage doesn't reflect blind unreasoning anger. It's calculated, and anybody who gets in the way is dismissed as worthless. He pounds Sanya unconscious and would have done worse to Butters. I'd attribute it to the Winter Mantle if it hadn't happened before in Grave Peril.
Normal times, you could be right, but that wasn't normal times. In this case it doesn't fit with the passages you sighted either. There was a major battle going on, everyone was fighting for their lives or about to, including Harry. This does stuff to your adrenal glands,flight or fight, seeing your beloved murdered in a stupid manner by someone you are not fond of to begin with, could set one off. He was a walking tinderbox, that bullet to Murphy's neck caused him to explode.I think you playe here with different meanings of the word reason.
Blind unreasoning anger? Hardly, he witnessed a careless man just blow his true love away... Don't you think that would piss him off just a wee bit? Anger of that kind tends to be blind, all Harry wanted to do was get to the guy and go through anyone trying to stop him.. Blind yes, because Harry was full of pain and rage over what he had just witness, uncontrolled,yes, once the adrenal glands kicked in, but it wasn't anger without reason, Harry had a very good reason.
I think you playe here with different meanings of the word reason.
A reason explains why you do something. ... Reason usually has to do with thought and logic, as opposed to emotion. If people think you show good reason, or are reasonable, it means you think things through. If people think you have a good reason for doing something, it means you have a motive that makes sense.
What means the same as reason?
logic, reasoning, sense, motivation, goal, basis, idea, incentive, argument, motive, impetus, purpose, rationale, consideration, cause, proof, case, justification, excuse, speculate.
There is a good reason why he acted the way he did, Murphy's murder triggered an emotional violent response. Was there thought and logic behind it? No, it was a pure violent emotional reaction to Murphy's senseless murder. Was it a reasonable reaction? Yes, on many levels, especially in the context it happened. So you can say Harry's motive for losing it makes sense.. However "reason" had very little to do with it.If it were reasonable then why did both Sanya and Butters work so hard to stop him? And I don't care if you use reason as explanation or reason as a rational way of thinking. In the real world I wouldn't let him in close, and I'd question his ability to raise a child. I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry.
He does exactly the same thing in Grave Peril without the Mantle and Eb stops him in exactly the same way.Harry’s decision was an emotional one based on very human instincts. There was no rational decision making about the pro and con of killing Rudolph, there was anger and rage.
@MiraIf it were reasonable then why did both Sanya and Butters work so hard to stop him? And I don't care if you use reason as explanation or reason as a rational way of thinking. In the real world I wouldn't let him in close, and I'd question his ability to raise a child. I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry.
Harry’s decision was an emotional one based on very human instincts. There was no rational decision making about the pro and con of killing Rudolph, there was anger and rage.
Santa and Butters represent civilization here. About the control of your emotions to make community possible. Harry had to sacrifice his revenge for the greater good.
Or if you want Christianity is a tool for central government to support their monopoly on violence. That was one of its historical functions anyway.
He does exactly the same thing in Grave Peril without the Mantle and Eb stops him in exactly the same way.
@MiraIf it were reasonable then why did both Sanya and Butters work so hard to stop him? And I don't care if you use reason as explanation or reason as a rational way of thinking. In the real world I wouldn't let him in close, and I'd question his ability to raise a child. I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry.
I don't disagree with you, but I'd like to to address morriswalters in a manner that gets to the heart of his argument.And if someone's REALLY got under your skin in the past like that you can can still give yourself a palpable (if lesser) surge of adrenaline just thinking about them.
It's not that Harry was reasonable. What is reasonable is to know that human beings can become irrational and violent when circumstances push them past the restraints of rational thinking and moral boundaries. At least Harry's initial response was understandable and reasonable to predict. I say this as someone who; when I was much younger had jobs that led me to be involved in several street fights. (I should mention they were legal jobs like loss prevention, bouncer and body guard.) I've been shot at; though thankfully only once and not on the job, and I've had more than one person try to use a knife or other edged weapon against me. I know what it's like to nearly beat someone to death. I also know what it's like to stop myself from doing so.
To me, there were two elements of Harry's behavior that stood out and are distinct from one another. The first was Harry's initial attack against Rudolph. I would expect that under the same or similar circumstances; not every person, but a large percentage of population would react with a similar amount of rage and violence; if they were capable of physically delivering it. What was more disturbing was how long Harry held onto that rage and that he seemed to be reveling in it. I think a much smaller percentage of the population would go that far, but I have no doubt some people would. When Harry lets his anger control him you understand why the White Council is afraid of him. So I partially agree with you. Harry, absolutely needs to address his anger issue before he goes too far one day and can't come back. However, I don't think he's a lost cause.
One other minor point. Mira mentioned adrenaline and its possible effect on Harry. An extreme adrenaline rush; the kind that's supposed to allow an ordinary person to pick up a car for a few seconds, only lasts for about 5 to 10 seconds tops and maybe only 3 to 5 seconds. I know because I've experienced it. It feels like a hand grenade going off inside your chest in slow motion, and every muscle in your body that's involved in the fight or flight response just sings with energy. I never understood why someone could become an adrenaline junkie until I felt that feeling. It was the scariest moment of my life but it felt SO DAMN GOOD. It did feel like I could lift a car off of a small child if I had to, but that wasn't the problem I was dealing with. From what I've read after this experience, your body still produces adrenaline after the first release, just not at that initial insane level. So I discount Harry's adrenaline level as being much of an influence on his behavior over more than a few seconds.
I agree, Arjan. I still think Dresden is not a danger for Maggie and I would lke him around me.No problem but you should be careful with his protective instincts if you see both Harry and Maggie together ;D
To me, there were two elements of Harry's behavior that stood out and are distinct from one another. The first was Harry's initial attack against Rudolph. I would expect that under the same or similar circumstances; not every person, but a large percentage of population would react with a similar amount of rage and violence; if they were capable of physically delivering it. What was more disturbing was how long Harry held onto that rage and that he seemed to be reveling in it. I think a much smaller percentage of the population would go that far, but I have no doubt some people would. When Harry lets his anger control him you understand why the White Council is afraid of him. So I partially agree with you. Harry, absolutely needs to address his anger issue before he goes too far one day and can't come back. However, I don't think he's a lost cause.
One question, but if you don't care to answer it, I understand. You said you've felt that kind of rage, did you stop yourself in the end or did someone else prevent you from causing further damage?Don't forget the forced empathy for Rudolph, the intent was nicer but the sword did the same thing that the WK mantle did in twisting Harry's emotional state in a desired direction.
But back to the story, you also say that it is disturbing that it took so much and it so long before Harry could be stopped. I think that is where the mantle comes in, it lives for rape and violence, it revels in it, it makes whoever holds it, a monster if not tightly controlled. Since Changes Harry has
fought those effects, not always successfully, but more than most, because he understands both the benefits it brings in a fight, and the draw backs because it is mindless and stimulates the strictly mindless animal parts of the brain. His reaction to Murphy's murder was a normal human one, but then it triggered the mantle, that took over and it was no longer human, it was no longer Harry. It took an archangel to stop him, a burn from a Holy Sword to cut through his very real pain, and the mantle's power to bring him back to being just Harry once more. The fact that he could be brought back, feels real remorse for losing it and continues to feel shame when he thinks of that burn says he still is the good man he always was. Both Butters and Sanya understand that, the archangel in charge of the Sword of Hope also understands that, that is why Harry merely got a nasty burn to remind him of his danger and very near fall, It didn't cut his arm off.
I disagree (with that and with your previous post). Harry exploded in angry like most people would had, and the mantle did not allowed it to stop himself. But there were very extenuating circumstances. No one is going to kill his love again in the middle of a war that depends completely on him (he knows he is the only one that would bind the Titan, he knows the plan of all the coalition is on his shoulder). He is not dangerous for Maggie in any case.Nothing about it worries me at all. He's a fictional character. Jim's did it for a reason and you are getting my opinion on what the reason is. There is a reason for showing Harry experiencing that loss of control. Jim has Harry quote a line from Marvel comics. "With great power comes great responsibility." Is this suddenly not true in the canon of the books because Harry is having a bad day? In the real world I don't know any crime lords or superheroes. Nor do I have any desire to. In Battle Ground these fictional caharacters kill 60000 people. Why would you want to know them?
"I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry."
Well, Sanya, Butters, Michael (and Mab) all seem to think different. Harry is not crazy, not is he going around force-choking people like Darth Vader. He is a good man at core and he loves Maggie.
It's the outburst what worries you so much? Would you feel safer around Marcone, because he is cold and calculating?
One question, but if you don't care to answer it, I understand. You said you've felt that kind of rage, did you stop yourself in the end or did someone else prevent you from causing further damage?A friend got me moving out of the house. For the record it never occurred to me to attack him. Unless there is an underlying mental illness you can't maintain that level of anger for very long. It drains you. There is even a nickname for what happens. Amygdala hijack (https://www.healthline.com/health/stress/amygdala-hijack#overview).
Don't forget the forced empathy for Rudolph, the intent was nicer but the sword did the same thing that the WK mantle did in twisting Harry's emotional state in a desired direction.
Nothing about it worries me at all. He's a fictional character. Jim's did it for a reason and you are getting my opinion on what the reason is. There is a reason for showing Harry experiencing that loss of control. Jim has Harry quote a line from Marvel comics. "With great power comes great responsibility." Is this suddenly not true in the canon of the books because Harry is having a bad day? In the real world I don't know any crime lords or superheroes. Nor do I have any desire to. In Battle Ground these fictional caharacters kill 60000 people. Why would you want to know them?
A friend got me moving out of the house. For the record it never occurred to me to attack him. Unless there is an underlying mental illness you can't maintain that level of anger for very long. It drains you. There is even a nickname for what happens. Amygdala hijack.Why do you think your friend got you moving out of the house? Maybe it never occurred to you to attack him, but apparently it did to him. Otherwise, why remove you?
I mean I feel like the real difference in Harry's case is that when he snapped and went after Rudolph he was no longer in a position to keep the Winter Knight in Check.
Harry was not running the show there until Butter's snapped him back out of it- it was evident in the way he was happy that Sanya was there because "Yay, he'd put up more of a fight" and the way he referred to Rudolph as "that thing". It was very much reminiscent of when he leaned too hard on the Mantle at the end of Cold Days.
If it were reasonable then why did both Sanya and Butters work so hard to stop him? And I don't care if you use reason as explanation or reason as a rational way of thinking. In the real world I wouldn't let him in close, and I'd question his ability to raise a child. I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry.
But he can become one. A lot of the story is based on that.
"No," Ebenezar said. "You've got to breathe, boy. Think."There is no Mantle at this point and Lash has not yet surfaced although she may be influencing him. He will also go a little crazy at Camp Kaboom. This has been ongoing throughout the series.
I started gathering power. "Kill him. Kill him. Everything. All of it. Nothing left."
"Harry," Ebenezar snapped. "Harry, let go. You can't handle that kind of power. You'll kill yourself if you try."
I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.
And then fire blossomed in my hand again, so sudden and sharp that my back convulsed into an agonized arch, and I fell to the floor. I couldn't scream. The pain washed my fury away like dandelions before a flash flood. I looked around wildly and saw the old man's broad, calloused hand clamped down over my burned, lightly bandaged flesh with bruising strength. When he saw my eyes he released my hand, his expression sickened.
No one is going to kill his love again in the middle of a war that depends completely on him.I wouldn't be so sure about that. ;)
I've been referring to Grave Peril but that was a mistake in attribution. It's Blood Rites.There is no Mantle at this point and Lash has not yet surfaced although she may be influencing him. He will also go a little crazy at Camp Kaboom. This has been ongoing throughout the series.In GP he did lose control and was only stopped by his heart stopping.
I wouldn't want to be anywhere near Harry because I'm genre savvy. How many of the people close to him have had horrible fates befall them? A lot of it, most in fact, wasn't Harry's fault. Doesn't change the fact I wouldn't want to be collateral damage. (Technically, only property can be collateral damage. Injury and death is called incidental injury). It's kind of like hanging out with a cartel member. You could end up dead just because you were near them.
There is no Mantle at this point and Lash has not yet surfaced although she may be influencing him. He will also go a little crazy at Camp Kaboom. This has been ongoing throughout the series.
I'm suggesting that Jim is writing a character who is an antithesis of who the character professes to be.I understand what you are suggesting, what I am saying is you are mistaken. Harry has never professed to be a saint, he has made mistakes as we all do.
"No," Ebenezar said. "You've got to breathe, boy. Think."Again, this isn't an evil person speaking, nor even a calculating one.. He is injured, quite severely, lots of pain, vulnerable emotionally and he just learned a hell of a lot that he wasn't prepared for. It is revealed to him who murdered his mother. Again, his reaction is very normal. Eb even confesses that he, himself tried to go after Raith, but he couldn't kill him, he is protected. Yes, Harry's thoughts are ugly, violent, but natural that he'd want to go after the person who did it.. I've had those thoughts too, a friend's dog was shot in his own yard by some thrill seekers, jerks. Did I act on those thoughts? No, but let us say I didn't wish whoever did it, well.
I started gathering power. "Kill him. Kill him. Everything. All of it. Nothing left."
"Harry," Ebenezar snapped. "Harry, let go. You can't handle that kind of power. You'll kill yourself if you try."
I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.
And then fire blossomed in my hand again, so sudden and sharp that my back convulsed into an agonized arch, and I fell to the floor. I couldn't scream. The pain washed my fury away like dandelions before a flash flood. I looked around wildly and saw the old man's broad, calloused hand clamped down over my burned, lightly bandaged flesh with bruising strength. When he saw my eyes he released my hand, his expression sickened.
I wouldn't want to be anywhere near Harry because I'm genre savvy. How many of the people close to him have had horrible fates befall them? A lot of it, most in fact, wasn't Harry's fault. Doesn't change the fact I wouldn't want to be collateral damage. (Technically, only property can be collateral damage. Injury and death is called incidental injury). It's kind of like hanging out with a cartel member. You could end up dead just because you were near them.Or if you know Harry well at all and profess to be his friend, you know perfectly well if there is a shit fest Harry is going to be in the middle of the cesspool combating it. If you want to be any where near it some of that smelly brown stuff is going to hit you in the process. Yet they do it over and over again.
Yeah, nothing against Harry, but the sensible response to Dresden is to decide, "fuck that, I'm going to move to Europe/Asia/Australia/etc", that should be far enough to avoid the splash zone.
It did what it needed to do. Harry didn't feel empathy for Rudolph, but at the day care, he knew that Rudolph wasn't playing with a full deck either. In other words, Harry was very rational about him, so was Bradley, Rudolph was knocked out so the kids could be gotten to safety. However Harry had other problems and in the confusion, Rudolph came to with a gun with in reach. He took it and in his insane panic murdered Murphy senselessly. At that point in his emotional response to her murder, it was impossible for Harry to respond rationally. He responded with rage, the reptilian parts of his brain responded and screamed for retribution. Harry is no normal human that can be grabbed and pinned down until he came to his senses again, he is a wizard. Not only a wizard, but the Winter Knight, with a mantle that was screaming "HEEHA" adding all the fuel it could to the rage.Again you miss what I'm saying, the sword didn't just deliver a shock it also forced empathy down Harry's throat as forcefully as the WK mantle was sending him anger. Nicer goal but same overall method of going "you're going to feel what I want you to feel".
It wasn't until the shock of the Holy burn from the Sword cut though it all, was he able to come to his senses, and yeah, again feel a degree of empathy for Rudolph. However it won't be till Rudolph is actually tried, if he is tried, and Harry forgives him will we know if the empathy is real or not.
I felt Rudolph. Felt his terror. His agony. His confusion. His humiliation. His remorse. His sick self-hatred. I felt them all as if they were my own. I saw myself through Rudolph’s eyes, huge and vicious and deadly, implacable as an avalanche.
Again you miss what I'm saying, the sword didn't just deliver a shock it also forced empathy down Harry's throat as forcefully as the WK mantle was sending him anger. Nicer goal but same overall method of going "you're going to feel what I want you to feel".
Maybe the sword went one step further than just cancelling the rage and letting Harry look at the situation with a clear head.
I understand what you are suggesting, what I am saying is you are mistaken. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting Harry's reactions stem from some thing that Justin created, this huge character flaw in Harry. If it is, it is a very human one, no, he isn't a bad man appearing to be good. Your examples do not prove your point.There is no doubt that Harry was programed as a weapon of some type. It's explicit in the text. First in Summer Knight.
She shot him a look and said pointedly, "He's arrogant, Ebenezar. Dangerous."Then again in Ghost Story.
I snorted. "That's every wizard ever."
Martha continued as if I hadn't spoken. "Bitter. Angry. Obsessive."
Ebenezar frowned. "Seems to me he has good reason to be. You and the rest of the Senior Council saw to that."
Martha shook her head. "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk."
“Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.”And last in the microfiction Journal
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 353). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Perhaps I have been too hard on him. Perhaps I really have become paranoid and mad. Perhaps I have wronged a good man. But there is too much at stake to take that chance. The thought of allowing a Destroyer to be birthed among us when I could have stopped it is too heavy to bear.If you want to do lasting mental damage to a child, Jim's treatment of young Harry is exactly how you would go about it. What I'm suggesting is that the destroyer in the microfiction is a Norse being called a berserker. this has nothing to do with if Harry is good or evil. It speaks specifically to the question, why is the Council so afraid of Harry.
To those who come after me and read this… well. History will be my judge.
There is no doubt that Harry was programed as a weapon of some type. It's explicit in the text.There's also a good one about what he's learned from Lea as his godmother. I can't remember if it was from SK or CD. If it was SK, it's when he first talks to the Summer Lady in the rooftop garden. If it's CD, it's when he talks to another Summer Lady in another garden.
There is no doubt that Harry was programed as a weapon of some type. It's explicit in the text. First in Summer Knight.Then again in Ghost Story.And last in the microfiction JournalIf you want to do lasting mental damage to a child, Jim's treatment of young Harry is exactly how you would go about it. What I'm suggesting is that the destroyer in the microfiction is a Norse being called a berserker. this has nothing to do with if Harry is good or evil. It speaks specifically to the question, why is the Council so afraid of Harry.
There's also a good one about what he's learned from Lea as his godmother. I can't remember if it was from SK or CD. If it was SK, it's when he first talks to the Summer Lady in the rooftop garden. If it's CD, it's when he talks to another Summer Lady in another garden.You should link, I get confused by all the Gardens.
Which Microfiction was that from? Was that from Eb's journal?One of these I think.
You should link, I get confused by all the Gardens.One of these I think.Apparently I do too. That's probably why I can't remember which one it was.
There is no doubt that Harry was programed as a weapon of some type. It's explicit in the text. First in Summer Knight.Then again in Ghost Story.And last in the microfiction JournalIf you want to do lasting mental damage to a child, Jim's treatment of young Harry is exactly how you would go about it. What I'm suggesting is that the destroyer in the microfiction is a Norse being called a berserker. this has nothing to do with if Harry is good or evil. It speaks specifically to the question, why is the Council so afraid of Harry.According to Eb in peace talks Vadderung employs many berserkers. I think they are something different in the dresdenverse.
Apparently I do too. That's probably why I can't remember which one it was.This?
@groinkick: It's one of the microfictions you can find on Jim's website. You really should read them. They're quick and easy. Telling you anymore about that story is super spoilery and it only takes a about 4 minutes to read.
Aurora turned her lovely face fully toward me and regarded me with deep, quiet eyes. "Yes." Unease gnawed at my belly as she continued. "The strong conquer and the weak are conquered. That is Winter. That is what you have learned." She leaned closer and said, quietly emphatic, "That is what makes you dangerous. Do you see?"
According to Eb in peace talks Vadderung employs many berserkers. I think they are something different in the dresdenverse.I have no idea at this point. Freaking out and maiming your friends seem to be a-okay and perfectly normal. And if you have remorse that it makes everything fine. As a fictional world view that leaves me a little cold. If it isn't going to resolve into to some type of redemption arc then it would seem to be merely torture porn. I don't need that.
This?I have no idea at this point. Freaking out and maiming your friends seem to be a-okay and perfectly normal. And if you have remorse that it makes everything fine. As a fictional world view that leaves me a little cold. If it isn't going to resolve into to some type of redemption arc then it would seem to be merely torture porn. I don't need that.In the earliest sources berserkers just seem to be the champions and bodyguards of kings, later witters ran away with it to start with early medieval christian writers. Jim has a lot of freedom to interpret what berserkers are in his universe.
In the earliest sources berserkers just seem to be the champions and bodyguards of kings, later witters ran away with it to start with early medieval christian writers. Jim has a lot of freedom to interpret what berserkers are in his universe.
From what I have read in Icelandic sagas such behavior would not be just accepted and without consequences and it was never described as ok.
You should link, I get confused by all the Gardens.One of these I think.
“Christmas Eve”
“Mike”
“Journal”
“Goodbye”
“Job Placement”
“Everything the Light Touches”
“The Good People”
Where she had lain, there was a symbol scorched into the crates as if by a white-hot stylus. Three triangles, interlocking. The valknut. The knot of the fallen warriors. Symbol of Odin. I stared at the empty crates. Her blood was still on them, drying black. Something dark began to stir, down deep. Something angry.Obviously the anger and rage didn't disappear into the abyss. That's how it works. It's always there waiting for it's time in the sunlight. Anyway.
“Nothing has changed,” said a soft, slightly slurred voice behind me. “She’s gone. She isn’t coming back.” I turned and found Miss Gard sitting on a pile of crates. There was a bottle of whiskey in her hand. There were four empties at her feet. She looked like she’d been through almost as much as I had. I closed my eyes for a second. I was bone tired. I felt the rage down there.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (pp. 364-365). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
There is no doubt that Harry was programed as a weapon of some type.
This?That's the one.
Freaking out and maiming your friends seem to be a-okay and perfectly normal. And if you have remorse that it makes everything fine. As a fictional world view that leaves me a little cold. If it isn't going to resolve into to some type of redemption arc then it would seem to be merely torture porn. I don't need that.I think it's more about stopping before he "went too far." Sanya is willing to sacrifice his body to prevent Harry from murdering Rudolph. I also think Harry is going to have to do more than just feel remorse. We know he's going to do that more than anyone would like. He does it to the point of being overscrupulous. He has to be a good person in addition, which he mostly is.
I think it's more about stopping before he "went too far." Sanya is willing to sacrifice his body to prevent Harry from murdering Rudolph. I also think Harry is going to have to do more than just feel remorse. We know he's going to do that more than anyone would like. He does it to the point of being overscrupulous. He has to be a good person in addition, which he mostly is.