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Messages - Drachasor

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16
DFRPG / Re: Using Aspects Against Players
« on: July 02, 2011, 01:44:58 PM »
Ah, I was proposing the "turn an aspect into a character".  Their example also indicates you should give it unique stunts (that don't have to be balanced with book stunts) to represent what it does.  Of course, the vast majority of the time the players should know how it works mechanically -- this is especially true with something like a bright light.

So, to specify further, with regards to the light, it would look something like this:

Bright Light  (An aspect)
Skill 2  (This is used for defense, offense, and whatever else it actively does)
Stunts
  • No Shadows: Anyone making a check to see an something the light illuminates, gains a +2 bonus on the roll.
  • Tiny:  +1 Defense again non-area attacks
  • Device:  Hexing can be used to make attacks on this aspect.
Stress Boxes: 2

That would be the general idea, though perhaps you'd lower the skill level to 1 or modify the "No Shadows" stunt.  Destroying the Aspect would represent breaking the light (hence the "device" stunt).

Again, I'm not saying this is for everyone.  But for some people/groups the normal aspect approach here could break their willing suspension of disbelief and/or they could find a compel an annoying way to handle the situation (the above fractal provides options a compel wouldn't, imho).

17
DFRPG / Re: Playing an obvious non-human
« on: July 02, 2011, 07:37:15 AM »
Mouse also had good deceit.  In Turn Coat he fakes the severity of an injury to teach Molly a lesson (it works).  Everyone buys it, including Harry who only changes his mind after he examines the wound.  There's a lot of stuff a dog could do with deceit really, such as faking an illness or whatever.

18
DFRPG / Re: Playing an obvious non-human
« on: July 02, 2011, 07:21:01 AM »
Woah, are you saying Mouse can't meaningfully interact with mundane humans?  I think he does a pretty good job.  He's certainly more popular than Harry.

It's certainly a challenge, I'd admit, but there aren't any special abilities granted by the rules.  The most annoying thing is probably not being able to talk if you look like an animal.  If you don't, then you can get more meaningful interaction, since you can talk (you just have to set up a disguise right).

Hmm, one idea is use the fact you have to hide who you are as a compel against your High Concept.  That should get you a lot of Fate Points at least.

Overall, I think Mouse would be pretty fun, though it seems like a bit of a waste to have good deceit and rapport scores since you can't talk -- they've be great for manipulating people in the manner Mouse does.  Maybe Fate Points would be enough to bridge the gap there...I'm not sure.

19
DFRPG / Re: Using Aspects Against Players
« on: July 02, 2011, 03:25:59 AM »
I think we're actually trying to answer the question posed. The question was "how do I use aspects for NPCs?" How do you do that Drachasor and Mouse?

I don't desire to have some meaningless argument over this.  I said one could go your way on it.  I have also said the problems I found there, because there are some situations where aspects are not great.  Frankly, I've already answered your question.

I'll elaborate slightly further, however.  Aspects generally work best on things that are kinda iffy in whether they help or not, especially things they might help one moment, and won't do anything the next.  A numb arm is pretty much like that; some attacks/blocks are going to work just fine.  Dust in one's eyes can be like that; intermittent blinking.  A slippery floor could be like that; quite possible to not slip at all, and since we only worry about entire zones for movement, a lot of the slipperiness is flavor.  Light level, especially down a narrow corridor, doesn't really seem like it fits into that terribly well.  This is going to be something with a very, very constant effect.  Now, you might say "well, just use a compel!", but that also has problems, imho, because it isn't impossible to sneak by, just very difficult and if anything it could stifle creativity by the players.

Overall, I think fractals are a better fit for something like that.  I think it would lead to more interesting play.  I think fractals can see use in a number of areas as being quite useful.  I'm not alone here, the game designers obviously agree given that...you know...they invented the idea.  I don't see why you seem to want to argue this point so much.  I have repeatedly emphasized fractals aren't for every group, and yet you seem completely unwilling to let go of the idea that only aspects should be used.  What's the big deal?

I prefer to abstract fate combat rather than map it out.  So yes, opponents in the same zones or in zones with no barriers to sight do need to maneuver in order to be unseen.
Again, using an abstracted combat model, movement within a zone is free.  So that partial cover you had isn't likely to last...

And my particular example was one that involved attackers not being in the same zone as the defenders.  Just being in two different zones means a lot of cover is going to be completely solid unless the attacker moves to your zone.

Regarding the fractal concept as applied to gaming - it's a concept which several have applied to scaling aspects.  How are you suggesting its use?  I'm not understanding how your suggestion and the concept of fractals align. 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded part.  Regarding the OP I suggested one way to use fractals (a bonus on alertness against stealth by people via a stunt the aspect fractal has).  Hmm, I thought I had an even better idea than what I posted, but I can't recall it at the moment.  If you wanted me to elaborate on cover, that's pretty straightforward -- the big question is whether you want the cover to provide a block, armor, or just an increase to defense against ranged attacks from another zone, but it would be pretty easy to make a cover fractal that works well, is potentially destroyable, and overall makes cover feel more like cover.

20
DFRPG / Re: Magic with Necessary Items
« on: July 02, 2011, 02:59:29 AM »
Additionally this is the very thing that the OP is asking for. How can I represent a situation under which all of my magic is shut down? Seems odd to rail against the goal of the post itself.

I only meant that an IoP does this better than just an aspect.  A pure aspect would have to say one thing and mean a host of other things, unless it is going to be "All my magic power is in me bag o' bones" or something.  Yes, you can certainly make it so it works that way and so everyone understands it.  However, I do not think it is terribly elegant when you want to also have all these crunch aspects too.

An item that has powers attached frankly screams IoP, and it is simply enough to modify the base IoP rules to get it to work perfectly.  It would be like making a vampire, and instead of taking Hunger, just taking an aspect to cover it.  The result is much more crude.

21
DFRPG / Re: I'm a wizard and I like my tech.
« on: July 02, 2011, 01:09:57 AM »
Nope, I have to disagree again. You have to bind a similar entity to an object (let's highball at 10 refresh resisted by discipline), and then add some shifts for duration, about 20 would do. And he might even be persuaded to forfeit the discipline roll if (as in Bobs case) they really do not want to return to the nevernever. In that case you would only need to create an aspect on the skull (3 shifts) plus duration.

Bob serves whomever owns the skull.  So basically this is a spell that totally remakes the spirit within.  Hence you're talking about enough shifts to completely destroy such an entity -- which is about 2 shifts per refresh, give or take...hmm, I'll have to look up what Iato/Fred Hicks (sp?) said again.  He might have said that it is enough to destroy plus 2 shifts per refresh (though that initially seems high, though admittedly you don't need a duration on a permanent transformation...I don't think).  In any case, we're talking about a something in the 30s or higher MINIMUM.

On the contrary. Remember FM. What would have been a quick google search cost Harry one of his true names, and who knows when that is going to bite him in the ass again.

I don't remember what the question was that would just be a google search.  If such a thing was true then he's an idiot.  Even in Fool Moon he could easily manage getting someone to make a google search for him (most people that go to the bar doesn't short out tech for instance).  In a game with other players it would be even easier.

22
DFRPG / Re: I'm a wizard and I like my tech.
« on: July 01, 2011, 11:40:01 PM »
If you go the magic computer route, then I think that's a little Archive Magic plus some AI.  Obviously it would have to be much, much, much weaker than the actual Archive.  However, something that can remember any book you show it or even potentially search the internet should be possible.  It seems like creations with a bit of intelligence are possible in the Dresdenverse -- there are constructs of various sorts that show rudimentary intelligence and that's a lot more than what computers can do.

So I think you could certainly talk to a GM and come up with a good idea for a Magi-"tech" library that can search through any book you have or potentially remember any book you show it.  That's maybe even just a few power to do, since 10 shifts would be enough to store a lot of information (if you consider it a type of knowledge or lore check).  If you wanted to go with overkill, then 20-30 shifts would easily hold all the information on anything -- though you might still have to go out and find that information to feed into the system.  After that you just need duration.  I think interface is largely flavor, but you could always add a few more shifts to speed up searches and the like.  A really Great Library might be 50 shifts (maybe 60 or 70 for a really, really long duration unless your GM makes extending the duration at a later date easier), which IS a lot, but also something that could be fun roleplaying out over many sessions as you slowly put all the pieces together.  Or you could start smaller with a more limited library and just do like 15 shifts for a narrow focus.  This would still have limited access to information, of course, since you'd be lacking all the symbolic links, but I think that would be more than enough to justify letting it automatically add in any book you come across.

AI is a bit more difficult to figure out how much it should cost.  I suppose one method they've recommended is acting like it is a creature you were killing and look at the total refresh, double that number, and maybe add a bit extra.  So 20-30 more shifts should be pretty good for that before duration considerations.

All said, to make a Bob we're probably talking about spell that requires 100-150 shifts.

Edit:  Regarding the tech-based solution.  I think it is safe to be pretty lenient if a player wants to do something like this.  There's really not that much powergaming that could potentially be done in the Dresdenverse with a computer.  It isn't like you can hack into a Denarian and control them.  Really you are just getting games, the internet, email, etc.  Heck, even if a Wizard never hexed anything, it isn't really a significant power shift.  Guns?  They can use plenty already since there are tons of very effective old guns from WW2 (and others of similar complexity that are more modern).  A better car isn't going to change anything.  About the biggest difference is a cell-phone, and that won't change all that much.  In the end, accidental hexing is a lot more like flavor than anything else (and occasionally a source for fate points).

23
DFRPG / Re: I'm a wizard and I like my tech.
« on: June 29, 2011, 11:38:26 PM »
Hmm, this makes me wonder what magical versions of Moties would be like in the Dresdenverse.  Obviously engineers would become thaumaturgists.  Bit OT though.

24
DFRPG / Re: I'm a wizard and I like my tech.
« on: June 29, 2011, 09:45:31 PM »
My take is, the circle can be broken by anything (or anyone) it is trying to protect or prevent.  Draw a circle around yourself to keep the bad guys out and you'd better not let a finger cross the line.  Draw a circle to keep a demon in and you'd better not let anything it can use or become cross the line.  Draw a circle to keep electronics safe and you'd better not let any electronics cross the line...

By that reasoning you are also making a ward to protect kids, since it BLOCKS MAGIC.  The ward isn't focused on electronics in its design, it is focused on stopping magical energies.  A ward to protect a house similarly protects your bathroom, but that doesn't mean the plumbing cancels it out.

I think that's sufficient, though I'd also note there's a difference between electrons moving a little bit and electronic devices maintaining their physical status.  The two are very different, if related.

25
DFRPG / Re: I'm a wizard and I like my tech.
« on: June 29, 2011, 09:21:07 PM »
Not worried about the electrons...you have a line of copper & plastic obscuring a portion of your circle.  A physical break.  

I differentiated between analog and digital because induction only transfers alternating current.  However it is an easy way to create a physical break in a power line.  Match that physical break up with your circle's edge and you no longer have anything creating a line across it.

And the ground isn't a physical break for the circle because?  Also, note, a dust bunny blown by the wind over a circle doesn't break it.  Pipes for water mains don't break it either.  It has to be an object moved by an act of will while the circle is up to break it.  In any case, a ward wouldn't make as big a deal about a break, so it is less of an issue if you go that route.

26
DFRPG / Re: Using Aspects Against Players
« on: June 29, 2011, 09:17:57 PM »
Don't forget you can do more than just invoke an aspect for a one time bonus.  Take the long range cover situation you mention - I'd invoke Behind a Wall for effect and leave the shooter unable to Target me at all until he maneuvers to void the aspect...or until I do something which ends it. 

Fate supports standard tactical tropes, it just does so by modifying the narrative instead of the action.

I think you are getting Aspects On The Brain disease (happens to us all).  You don't need an aspect to stop someone who can't see you from shooting at you, and you certainly don't need an invocation.  The other guy is the person who needs to justify shooting at something that he can't see, especially if they are behind a bullet-proof object.  Anyhow, I meant cover as something that you still exposed yourself a bit from to fire/attack...if you are just hiding behind it out of site, there's no need to use anything for that (unless the enemy has the firepower to destroy the cover, in which case a Fractal works best since it would have stress boxes).

I proposed using fractals just because that's something that has already been brought up as an idea for some things.  It would work fairly well, I think, and there are lots of ways to handle them.  Note that aspects are NOT used for a large number of things in the game, because aspects don't handle lots of things well.  You don't use Aspects to represent Zone Borders, for instance.  They also aren't very granular.  An Aspect for a Zone Border wouldn't make much of a difference between a 4' fence and a 10' fence; using something with a raw number does, and this sort of gross distinction does matter for the story.

There's another way one could have that fractal work for a light as well.  It could have a stunt that says "Stealth Roles at a Result equal or below the skill level of the Light fail" That's probably a better way to go, kind of like a reverse Veil.  I think using Fractals like this makes a lot of sense; obviously players should be informed how any Fractal works if it is stuff they should know (such as with a light).

Again, I am not saying all groups should do it this way.  I am just saying that some groups are going to have much bigger willing suspension of disbelief (WSoD) problems if you handle everything without a unique mechanic using aspects.  WSoD problems, when they crop up, can easily damage the game by undermining the narrative impact.

27
DFRPG / Re: I'm a wizard and I like my tech.
« on: June 29, 2011, 09:06:19 PM »
Power Lines shouldn't break a circle.  There's no meaningful intent to the electrons crossing it anymore than air molecules cross a circle from breathing would cause a break.  There's an argument, perhaps, for data lines, though I'd lean against this since you can talk to people on the other side of a circle without breaking.

I'd think a Tech Wizard could have a setup like this:
A room totally sealed off with a ward to block out magic from leaking into it.  Shouldn't even have to be that powerful to block random magic discharges.  All computer equipment is setup in here.  A projector or large TV would be used for a computer screen.  Now, input is tricky here, since you can't just use a regular mouse or keyboard.  I'd suggest a mirror above the mouse, which is used on a finely dotted grid.  A camera sees the reflection, and figures out the mouse movements from this -- it would need to be a fairly powerful camera.  Mouse buttons would be mechanical in nature and just show a color or other visual cue for the camera to pick up.  The keyboard would perhaps best be done as a mechanical device that when a key is pressed down a sign of what key was used is shown (perhaps a combination of colors).  Another camera sees this and interprets keystrokes.

This would allow the easiest access to a computer system without the user needing to suppress their magic.  A potion that places a maneuver on the person "Sealed Magic" would be used when working in the Tech Room.  It would be invoked for effect to disable ALL magic of the user for as long as the maneuver would last.  Another potion would be used to cancel this effect early.  Before more advanced digital cameras, this would be the setup used to access the system as well.

A more generous GM might let you get away with a magical "grounding wire" that you attach to your wrist or something and it would suck out all extraneous magical energy before it did damage.  This would take up an enchanted item slot.  It would probably place a "Magically Grounded" maneuver on you which is invoked for effect to stop hexing for the duration.  Hmm, you might even have another magical item that uses the collected magical energies from this one to power itself.  (This is basically what Runhide said, but you might as well have an enchanted item instead of a potion if you plan on using your computer to any significant degree).

In any case, you MUST have a warded room to stop accidental damage to your machines.

28
DFRPG / Re: Using Aspects Against Players
« on: June 29, 2011, 03:28:49 AM »
You could do that, but it's just adding the whole concept of modifiers that the aspect system is trying to replace. Of course the issue of constantly on aspects is something that trips a lot of people up. Fred once explained it though. FATE is a very story based game. When no one spends a fate point to use an aspect it's just not important to the story at that moment. It's still there, it just doesn't effect the outcome. So in the "brightly lit" hallway, if no one spends a Fate point the hallway isn't dark, it just doesn't matter that it's "brightly lit." The player was clever enough to distract the guard, or the guard was briefly (or not so briefly) inattentive. If someone does spend a fate point then it becomes important. The guard is paying attention. The player is trying something that is less then effective under those specific circumstances (I.E. in a "brightly lit" space), etc.

I do not think aspects out of the book handle everything in a perfect manner.  However, what I proposed could work well for some groups and it doesn't mean you can't distract the guard.  A maneuver that cancels out the effect of that aspect/fractal should logically then prevent it from helping anyone out.  So if you distract the guard, then he doesn't gain the bonus of a well-lit room.

This isn't the best way to handle everything, but aspects DO have problems in some more extreme scenarios.  Hiding behind cover from someone shooting 100 yards away.  That cover only being there when powered by fate points is danged peculiar.  Some thing with guards who just have to look down a narrow hallway that has good lighting.  The latter is especially true if the guards are not human and don't get distracted -- though honestly, getting distracted a bit is handled fairly well by dice rolls and maneuvers.  Similarly, if you are standing in the middle of a burning fire, then "the zone is on fire" as an aspect IS a bit lacking.

These things can overly stretch or even break the willing suspension of disbelief for some people, and so some groups might want to look at ways to modify the game to handle it.  I think going with a bunch of situational modifiers for lighting, fog, etc, etc, etc like D&D and other games have is not the right way to go.  However, some aspects with a little mechanics tacked on can fill in here in these particular extremes if the group finds it more satisfying and fun.  Fractals are useful in this manner.

29
DFRPG / Re: Using Aspects Against Players
« on: June 29, 2011, 02:01:07 AM »
I suppose an alternative would be to use "Well-lit Room" as a Fractal of some sort and giving it a stunt that would let it aid anyone in seeing anything in the area.  Hmm, give it a skill level 2 and let it add its skill to anyone looking around.  One could have fractals handle any such static thing one wanted, I suppose.

Hmm, in some ways that's an overly complicated way to handle it.  On the other hand, it has advantages over just using compels (better granularity of difficulty without doing a raising the stakes).  It also has an bit of an advantage over using fate points for +2 bonuses for something that is constant like a light or cover.

30
DFRPG / Re: Magic with Necessary Items
« on: June 29, 2011, 01:45:55 AM »
Not all IoPs need to be unbreakable; hexenwolf belts are an example of one that isn't.  There's certainly no reason to be bound to some relatively minor details like that or even the more minor one that the IoP has the power inside it.

My only concern with an aspect is that while yes, you can take compels to not be able to use magic, overall I just don't see that coming up that much.  So it might not make for a very interesting aspect since it isn't a very fun compel since it shuts down all of your magic.  I'd think GM and player both would tire very quickly of the idea of the bones getting taken away.  I'm just saying another aspect might be more fun.

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