Physical immunity -8 total immunity Metal. total cost -1Obsidian is already Not Metal. That would be like having a Catch of True Emotions and also True Love and expecting to get paid for both of them. Stacked Catches work for Physical Immunity and another form of Toughness, not both on Physical Immunity. At least, that's how I'm reading Physical Immunity's trapping.
Stacked catch: Not Metal +2, Easy to come by +2, Can be researched +1,
Catch Obsidian +2, Can be researched +1
which if you don't have any other toughness powers,he has a recovery power and the catch affects that. just like it dose toughness
Okay i personally think that for that example recovery powers should be/are interchangeable with toughness powers but if you want to interpret so that there not that's fine. we simply change his supernatural recovery to inhuman recover and pick up inhuman toughness, then the points work as i originally indicated.
Umm...no they don't. His Immunity to Weapons only gets one catch, and is thus a -3 Power. Adjusting his other powers and their Catch doesn't effect this in the least.
For example, let’s say a fire demon has
Supernatural Toughness with the Catch that
he’s vulnerable to cold. Normally, this would
give him a refresh rebate of +3: +2 because
cold is easy to come by, and +1 because
research would normally uncover it.
In addition, he has physical immunity
to damage from any kind of fire. The Catch
is that it only applies to attacks with fire.
Normally, this would give a rebate of +5:
+2 for protecting against only one specific
thing, +2 because “not fire” is easy to come
by, and +1 because research would normally
uncover it.
Because you can stack these two refresh
benefits, the demon gets a total of +8
toward his Toughness powers, so his total
refresh cost is only –4 (–4 for Supernatural
Toughness, –8 for Physical Immunity, +8 for
the stacked benefit).
it is a stacked catch as per the page you quoted, he is immune to all non obsidian weapons, so its +8 to his toughness powers. 5 for the non weapons , and 3 for the obsidian getting through. with out stacking the obsidian part on it m hed be immune to obsidian arrows and knives as well.
its not twice the benefit, he has a total of +8 from his stacked cacth to aply to all his thoughness powers.
he also has +3 from his cheasy human form that affects his recovey/toughness.
so recovery/toughness is -4 +3 from human form for -1
Invulnerability is -8 +8 for -1
As it is, you're using a Stacked Catch on the same power. You can't do that. You have the Stacked Catch that only applies to Physical Immunity, which would get you +2 Not Weapons, +2 Easily Found (I hit you with a chair), +1 Research required. You can't then take a regular catch on the same power for what you had. You get the regular catch on some other power. Otherwise you have two things you're weak to for the same power - +2 Not Weapons and +2 Obsidian, in which case you would only take the higher of the two because it's the same Catch, not a different one.
Then this is where the problem is. You don't get a +3 from human form
Okay, that's an entirely different issue. Human Form maxes out at +2, look at Lycanthropes who are both involuntary and rare, and still at +2. Other than that it technically works. Still, that's -6 Refresh, not -5.
Actually, you'd only get +0 from Human Form because you've only got one point of power tied to it and you can't get more back from Human Form than one less than the point of power you've got in it. Now, if you tied the Physical Immunity to the Human Form, then you could get the +2.
Actually, you'd only get +0 from Human Form because you've only got one point of power tied to it and you can't get more back from Human Form than one less than the point of power you've got in it. Now, if you tied the Physical Immunity to the Human Form, then you could get the +2.
The character is pretty damn broken, but it does work. Of course, the first werewolf or Red Court Vampire who meets it will tear it to pieces (claws aren't a weapon), but it works.
Of course, the first werewolf or Red Court Vampire who meets it will tear it to pieces (claws aren't a weapon), but it works.Technically, bullets aren't weapons either. Just ammunition. ;)
Technically, bullets aren't weapons either. Just ammunition. Wink
Physical immunity -8 total immunity Weapons. total cost -1
Stacked catch: Not a Weapon +2, Easy to come by +2, Can be researched +1,
Catch Obsidian +2, Can be researched +1
The base catch affects physical immunity and supernatural recovery.
Inhuman recovery -2 and Inhuman Toughness -2 Tied to human form total cost -1
catch Obsidian +2, Can be researched +1
Human form +3 (Whenever xxx is attacked with lethal force he involuntarily changes)+1 base, +1 involuntary, +1 rare, how often dose a person really try to kill you.. so that's rare right...right?.
Physical immunity -8 total immunity Weapons. Total cost -8
Stacked Catch: Not a Weapon +2, Easy to come by +2, Can be researched +1 Total Cost +5
Inhuman recovery -2 and Inhuman Toughness -2 Tied to human form total cost -4
The Catch Obsidian +2, Can be researched +1 Total Cost +3
Human form +2 (Whenever xxx is attacked with lethal force he involuntarily changes)+1 base, +1 involuntary/rare
Item of Power total cost -1
Staff of Death +2 for being a walking stick sized staff. , Feeding dependency +1 , must use fire to "consume" living flesh
Channeling fire -2 2 focus item slots are used on the staff itself for +1 to Offensive fire power,+1 to Control: Fire
Refinement -2 +2 focus item slots[ for another +2 offensive fire power], +1 Control Fire, +1 Power Fire
Looking it over, this...doesn't quite work. Since you have only Channeling you can't get Refinement except for Item Slots. So, 6 Focus Item Slots total. which isn't enough for all the bonuses you list (especially when they all need to be assigned to either offense or defense).
Refinement has no musts, The restriction your thinking of is for focused practitioners or sorcerers templates.
Alternately (for slightly more brokenness) you could instead get Evocation and have your one Refinement be in Specialization (for a total of +2 Power, +1 Control with Fire) though you'd then only have 2 Focus Item Slots (for +2 Off. Power). That'll still all fit in the staff, and his defense will be at 5 shifts, but his offense will drop from 8 to 7.
Granted, that's not about breaking the character, just thematicality, but I think it would look a whole metric asston better and creepier.Agreed and doing it that way would justify changing the bonuses to control instead of power. making for significantly more powerful attacks and weaker defense's.
Clearly, certain Physical Immunities are particularly unbalancing. A Physical Immunity to all non-Water based Magic would likewise be a mere -1, and powerful out of proportion to it's cost.
Not sure how you'd accomplish that, could you walk me through the math?
I think that the correct interpretation, which would disallow your -1 immunity to everything not water magic, is that a damage source from either catch bypasses the physical immunity. so your -1 physical immunity would be bypassed by both water magic and non-magic attacks. That is still pretty powerful, but its a little bit more reasonable.
There's not technically any reason the original Catch's discount can't can't apply to Physical Immunity. It's not how the example critter does it...but it could by the rules do precisely that. I think that's idiotic, and would never allow it, but it's technically legal, barring errata.
making him immune to all mortal magic except water. Yeah that works. I'm not sure that's actually any cheesier then the ogres version where he has the full mortal magic immunity and its bypassed by cold iron. since the vast majority of the time magical attacks aren't cold iron
My original confusion and i assume Luminos's as well was we didn't catch that you wrote "to all non-Water based Magic" and thought you meant immunity to everything but but water magic,
I guess the crux of the matter is how Catch and Stacked Catch actually work together. I would think personally that Physical Immunity is only decreased by the Stacked Catch and all your other powers are affected by the regular Catch. That's how I personally think they should work ... even though that's not borne out by a strict reading of the rules.
If it was, then you could have Physical Immunity to something at a maximum of -3. And your normal Catch maxes out at one less than the sum of all your other Toughness powers. So you'd always pay at least -4 for Physical Immunity+.
I guess the crux of the matter is how Catch and Stacked Catch actually work together. I would think personally that Physical Immunity is only decreased by the Stacked Catch and all your other powers are affected by the regular Catch. That's how I personally think they should work ... even though that's not borne out by a strict reading of the rules.
If it was, then you could have Physical Immunity to something at a maximum of -3. And your normal Catch maxes out at one less than the sum of all your other Toughness powers. So you'd always pay at least -4 for Physical Immunity+.
All this is really the core problem that Moridens idea is exploiting, and I am dang glad he brought this up because it needs to be fixed in all these variations that people have posted here.
I guess the crux of the matter is how Catch and Stacked Catch actually work together. I would think personally that Physical Immunity is only decreased by the Stacked Catch and all your other powers are affected by the regular Catch. That's how I personally think they should work ... even though that's not borne out by a strict reading of the rules.
It just strikes me as imbalanced, that Immunity to Magic is a -3 power, and Immunity to 4/5ths of magic is a -1 power. I mean, at -1 Refresh, why hasn't every Wizard in the world just picked it up? It'd absolutely be worth it.
Think about this: The catch is balloons. +2 for being something that anyone can get, maybe +1 if you can justify how it is researchable. And yet, finding ways to hurt someone with balloons is so stupidly hard to do that using them to satisfy the catch is almost worthless. So it would end up being a +0 catch
...same if you wrapped a balloon around a club and beet the poor sap with it.
Well there is the slight limitation's of needing your high concept to justify the powers that you buy, and short of putting it in an item of poweryou'd have to Transform yourself to get something like this regardless of if it was +0 or -8, and theirs all kinds of other problems when you try to do that.(click to show/hide)
Not really. A permanent Ward against most magic is absolutely in-theme for a Wizard. It's even a reasonable option for them...I just really don't think it's value is on par with a level of Refinement.
Wards, in this setting, are stationary. you'd have to attach it to yourself or an object you can carry somehow.
Personally i think the immunity power is half the problem, the fact that you can have
Immunity -8
Cacth: Hasent been discoverd +0
and be immune to everything until your st arbitrarily decides what your catch is. is rather horrid.
Non-Typo potentially major issues that have come up in various threads:
1. Can you apply the original Catch as well as the Stacked Catch to Physical Immunity? It would seem by the rules that you can, but that results in this:
Physical Immunity (-8)
The Catch: Water Magic (+3)
The Catch (Stacked): Non-magical attacks (+5)
And a character immune to all non-Water Magic for a single point of Refresh. Which seems a bit cheap for the effect.
#1 - The Stacked Catch only applies if you already have another catch applying to your other Toughness powers. There are no other Toughness powers in #1, so the principle of biggest value catch applies, netting only a +5 value.
Also, even going by needing an 'item', you could get some tattoos.
Now if we can only get a clarification on "package" toughness powers and weather each of them individually has to always be worth -1 or if that's just for the "package"
Now if we can only get a clarification on "package" toughness powers and weather each of them individually has to always be worth -1 or if that's just for the "package"
Stacked Catch now reads:
Stacked Catch [+varies]. Normally, all your Toughness powers can only receive the refresh rebate effect of one Catch, so you line them all up and choose the best one. If you take Physical Immunity, and have other Toughness abilities already covered by a Catch, you may also receive the refresh rebate of a second Catch. This second Catch may only affect how the Physical Immunity works, and it’s called a Stacked Catch. If you take a Stacked Catch, the first Catch covering the other Toughness powers does not include the Physical Immunity as one of the abilities covered.
For example, let’s say a fire demon has Supernatural Toughness with the Catch that he’s vulnerable to cold. Normally, this would give him a refresh rebate of +3: +2 because cold is easy to come by, and +1 because research would normally uncover it.
In addition, he has physical immunity to damage from any kind of fire. The Catch is that it only applies to attacks with fire. Normally, this would give a rebate of +5: +2 for protecting against only one specific thing, +2 because “not fire” is easy to come by, and +1 because research would normally uncover it.
Because you can stack these two refresh benefits, the demon gets a total of +8 toward his Toughness powers, so his total refresh cost is only –4 (–4 for Supernatural Toughness, –8 for Physical Immunity, +8 for the stacked benefit).
A character with a Stacked Catch that that inverts the conditions of the first Catch is strongly discouraged. A Physical Immunity to Fire layered on top of Supernatural Toughness that can only be pierced by Fire just never happens in reality, and if it did, one or both Catches would be rightly valued as worth zero.
It's been clarified, in precisely the way drnuncheon mentions.
and would make the staff unusable as is since you can't have multiple Feeding Dependencies.
two different examples, just wanted the second one to be as clear as possible so tried not to get to specific about its details.
Or, gain two additional specializationpg 182 your story.
bonuses for Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.
You have to structure your specialization
bonuses for each ability according to the same
“column” limits for skills (see page 65).
The one restriction on the bonuses provided
is that they may not total to a number greater
than your Lore. So if your Lore is Good (+3),
you can have an evocation focus item that
provides +3 to offensive control, offensive power,
defensive power, or defensive control, or a focus
item that provides +1 to three of those, or +2 to
one and +1 to another, but you can’t construct
one that provides bonuses totaling 4 or more.
pg 182 your story.
Emphasis mine.
The only bonuses that ignore this rule are focus items.
Changling Focused Practioner:
This Char. doesnt need preparation for Complexity 10 Summoning and Binding Rituals.
If Summoning and Binding takes 5 Minutes (I can see an argument that the time needed is shorter, but not one for longer)(click to show/hide)
this Char can Summon 22 Hellhounds in two Hours (and they would keep company for 1 month). (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17543.0.html)
But since (IMHO) Fae can die, we summon Magical-Constructs with the Stats of Hellhounds.
An Wizard could do the same, but wouldnt be as good in defense as this Char.
The Char. becomes really really good if you can (the GM lets you) make the Summoned Creatures yourself (Low Conviction - High Refresh).
I'm looking at the Giant Scarecrow at the moment (OW 45), this Char. should be able to summon it...
Changling Focused Practioner:
-3 Thaumaturgy
-4 Supernatural Recovery
+3 Catch: Iron
-----
-1
-8 Physical Immunity
+5 Stacked-Catch: only against Mortal Magic*
-----
-3
-1 Refinement x 2 -2
-----
-2
(6 Focus Item Slots)
+5 Summoning and Binding Complexity Focus.
+1 Item Focus Slot exchanged into Enchanted Item Slots.
* Is a Catch against Magic possible? How would that be priced?
Total Refresh cost: -9
Important Skills:
Superb 2: Lore, Discipline
This Char. doesnt need preparation for Complexity 10 Summoning and Binding Rituals.
If Summoning and Binding takes 5 Minutes (I can see an argument that the time needed is shorter, but not one for longer)(click to show/hide)
this Char can Summon 22 Hellhounds in two Hours (and they would keep company for 1 month). (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17543.0.html)
But since (IMHO) Fae can die, we summon Magical-Constructs with the Stats of Hellhounds.
An Wizard could do the same, but wouldnt be as good in defense as this Char.
The Char. becomes really really good if you can (the GM lets you) make the Summoned Creatures yourself (Low Conviction - High Refresh).
I'm looking at the Giant Scarecrow at the moment (OW 45), this Char. should be able to summon it...
My solution would be (and I'm thinking for using it with Demons too) Refresh cost x 2 is the base Summoning (Constructing) Ritual.
(Containmend and Binding Ritual would be still based of Conviction)
As for the dragon-thingy, I'd rule that to power that you need either a ridiculously old, potent, and strong-willed spirit, or an AI so complex and intelligent it will rapidly gain such qualities and escape your control easily.
Also, even assuming you go with those scores, those are alot less powerful than a -49 Refresh, and there is a clear ascending hierarchy, it just goes a bit slowly. But even by those standards (say, 1 point of Conviction every 10 Refresh, rounded down), the dragon would have a minimum of Great or Superb Conviction.
Yeah, that works fine. And can be killed casually by anyone with a sword or gun.Sword OK, Gun would need special munition.
The list is there as an example of existing NeverNever NPC's and their Conviction scores.
As guidline for stating other NPC's.
Even with Superb Conviction, its trivial easy for an Focused Summoner to Summon and Bind it.
(Superb +5, +4 best possible dice roll = +9 without Fate Points).
Asses two Aspects for the Containment Ritual and you have nothing to fear.
Sword OK, Gun would need special munition.
And if we use not an Fae as Parent but something other from the Nevernever it looks different.
And the Char. has two Enchanted Item Slots, an Lore of Superb and Thaumaturgy, so it would be prudent for the Char. to get an Enchanted Armor Item asap.
Better idea: Downgrade Thaumaturgy to Ritual: Summoning. Get an Extra Refinement for Enchanted Item Slots and let an dedicated summoned Item Crafter make your Magic Items.
Casually by anyone with an Sword? Even if we keep the Iron Catch. Not seeing it.
On the whole, I dont see the problem with the Char. per se, but with the Summoning/Bindingrules.
So my House-Rule is: More complex NPC's need a higher complexity (Summoning-)Ritual.
(And that would fit into the Summoning of the Erling. Harry got the Summoning Ritual from Peabody [well his book], but the Containment-Spell was Harrys [and would still be based on Conviction and be possible])
Summary:
Even if you give all NeverNever NPC's an Superb Conviction, its still trivial easy for an Summoner to summon and bind them. There is no in-Game reason whyhad such whimps as cannon fodder.(click to show/hide)
I'll repeat: Summoning, easy. Binding, not easy. Since Summoning is basically the magical version of a Contacts roll, this seems appropriate. This also explains the thing with the Erlking being fairly simple: Hary was putting him in a circle and keeping him there...not binding him to service.
@deadmanwalking:
You can Bind with multiple spells, not hard anymore...
In case the GM wants only one big binding ritual you need an bunch of tags anyhow (~10) those three or four extra tags for the higher conviction seem a little like thowing an lighter in an burning house...
[Edit:]
And its not as if an Big Hammer Ritual is short, the Creature should be able to tag those Aspects anyhow (if there are tagable there).
@deadmanwalking:off the top of my head, with no actual situation to work off of...
You can Bind with multiple spells, not hard anymore...
In case the GM wants only one big binding ritual you need an bunch of tags anyhow (~10) those three or four extra tags for the higher conviction seem a little like thowing an lighter in an burning house...
@JustinS:
Examples? Discipline Assesment for extra Concentration, OK. Other than that?
[Edit:]
And its not as if an Big Hammer Ritual is short, the Creature should be able to tag those Aspects anyhow (if there are tagable there).
Well, the more important and powerful a creature is the more likely it is to use it's Consequences. So the Scarecrow might use all of it's (making it a Complexity 30 or so ritual), while a Hellhound uses none (making it a Complexity 10 or so ritual). That's a large difference. Or, using the 'multiple rituals' model, one or two Rituals vs. five or six.And how does the Wizard know before he tries to bind the creature, how many Consequences it will take? That sound very metagamy to me. Shouldnt the Wizard plan for the worst?
Indeed. And it can make Declarations that they exist, as well as Assessments (and old, powerful, creatures should do precisely that). Either way it's got a good chance to break the hell out unless that's one hell of a binding circle (say, another Complexity 15 spell or so, if you want to be really safe).Complexity 15 Containment spell. We are talking about two Assessments...
Also, you're ignoring the potential diplomatic issues with this strategy. If you go around doing this to powerful, intelligent, entities, your former minions and/or their friends and associates will likely be annoyed and do something violent and unpleasant to you. Summoning up Fetches in Scarecrow's league is likely to arouse Mab's personal interest (they're her elite assassins), while summoning and binding Elder Gruffs is likely to annoy their elder brother. Neither of these are healthy for you. And the results are likely to be similar for summoning similarly powerful entities.Back to the sample summoned creature: Magical Constructs - no diplomatic issues?
off the top of my head, with no actual situation to work off of...
Lore assessments of the actual spell. Rapport assessments of the wizard in question. Possible craft declarations of the wizard having messed up his circle. Lore declarations of the wizard having used a crow feather instead of a raven...
Also, if you are going to force your way out, you may be able to add in the complementary skill might bonuses from levels of strength powers. Also, may have some fate points if they got spent against you from the summon if they invoked any of your aspects.
Not to mention the social attack of 'let me out, you can trust me even though I've never given my word'.
Potentially. It depends on how you read and look at the rules. Even assuming that's the case, your new minion will then immediately need time to recover or be pretty much useless until it does. Also, see the other thread for reasons why this is usually a bad idea. Two words: Diplomatic Repercussions.How so, the minion can choose every time to take no consequences, and be bound.
Though now that I think about it, there's also the whole 'literal genie' problem, where your new minion is ordered to protect you from the demon, and immediately kills you since then the demon can't. That's a bit of an over-the-top example, but the kind of thing that's likely to be a much bigger problem for powerful creatures than the less powerful.Thats on of the reasons we want long term binding.
Not a lot, but some (he can't keep 22 Hellhounds around all the time).
And I'd argue that nothingdoes proves Summoning takes that little time (I'd make it quite a bit longer, personally). I, also personally, assumed his Summonings were of entire groups, and all conducted offscreen, all he did onscreen was yell the equivalent of "Here, boy!" at already summoned critters.(click to show/hide)
And how does the Wizard know before he tries to bind the creature, how many Consequences it will take? That sound very metagamy to me. Shouldnt the Wizard plan for the worst?
Complexity 15 Containment spell. We are talking about two Assessments...
Back to the sample summoned creature: Magical Constructs - no diplomatic issues?
The wizards gain an Fate point every time a declarations is made against him, right?
So he can and should make an declaration right back. Seems like an no win situation.
For Assesments: The wizard should have the upper hand, because he controls the place and time of the Ritual. So he should go to the trouble of making clear there are no objects on the floor he can tripp over...
And how about preparing the room? Scene Aspect: Cleaned room, nothing to use against me. (Not shure how that would work exactly.)
From the other Thread (so we can discuss in one place):How so, the minion can choose every time to take no consequences, and be bound.
And if you use one big ritual for binding, the creature can still choose to take consequences and would be useless for you until recovered.
Thats on of the reasons we want long term binding.
But lets drop the matter of uber-powerfull summons for the moment. Does nobody see a problem with summoning an Army?
100 hundred magical constructs on the powerlevel of an Hellhound? (little more of 8 hours nonstop summoning and binding).
Its not as problematic as the mass summoning of Powerfull Things and workable. But its hard on the overpowered mark.
@Deadmanwalking: Ifhad his creatures allready summoned, how did he call them?(click to show/hide)
If its so easy to call them through the NeverNever (and he couldnt open a door into the NeverNever by the rules), then he can keep them around 24/7.
Sorry to say it, but at the moment I get the feeling of: Srew the player over for abusing rules that shouln't be there.
At the moment every creature is Summonable, Containable and Bindable (with Superb Conviction or lower, probably the Conviction could go even higher).
I could see an House Rule that the Binding Spell disrupts the Containment spell. So you would need one big powerfull Binding spell.
But then nothing would be bindable. The wizard cant know this creature isnt going to use Consequenses.
Unless you take the time and energy to make a complicated magical AI, Constructs ARE summoning.
Even if you do the AI thing (which I'd actually rule to take ALOT longer), there's the potential of it going rogue,
or the Wardens coming down on you for creating a sentient being and mistreating it.
And if you aren't mistreating it and it serves you willingly... well, what makes it different from any other allied NPC?
No. No he doesn’t. He’d get a Fate Point if the enemy burned a Fate Point to use one of his Aspects…but if the enemy uses Tags he gets jack and shit. And you can make Declarations without burning fate Points on them, too.Got confused, thought Declarations need an Fate point. Whats the difference between an Assessment and an Declaration again?
It…really wouldn’t. Except inasmuch as he could make it one of his own Assessments or Declarations to enhance the summoning circle.Wouldnt it be an Aspect the Summoned Creature needs to buy of with an Fate point? (ToDo: Need to reread the Aspect chapter...)
Oh, indeed. But that makes this a tactic requiring A LOT of prep time. Wizards can do almost anything if you give them prep time…but their enemies are aware of this, and seldom give them such time.Not shure we are talking about the same. I'm talking about a wizard who uses one work day (8 hours) per month to gain 100 NPC's as followers. He does that regulary. If he need more he has 100 followers who protect him while he summons more.
Major players start seeing you as a threat, and various people start worrying that you’ll draw attention to the magical community. Neither of these are good for you.Finally an use for the "Marked by Power" Power ;D
Okay, to be clear, he already has them bound. He the n spends a Complexity 4 or so spell summoning them, with no need for any Focus Items or circle (since they come pre-bound). Those are what likely take the time, not the summoning itself.Nice thinking. Need to remember this.
No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying characters don’t operate in a vacuum, and their actions provoke appropriate responses in NPCs.While I see this for summoning actual existing creatures. I have (as stated multiple times) a problem with Magical Constructs.
Can you rephrase that? Not shure I understand that... Constructs are summoning?
Alot longer = House Rule?
Potential of going rogue. How if its bound?
Why would they? Its not human.
The Power of the NPC?
Got confused, thought Declarations need an Fate point. Whats the difference between an Assessment and an Declaration again?
Wouldnt it be an Aspect the Summoned Creature needs to buy of with an Fate point? (ToDo: Need to reread the Aspect chapter...)
Not shure we are talking about the same. I'm talking about a wizard who uses one work day (8 hours) per month to gain 100 NPC's as followers. He does that regulary. If he need more he has 100 followers who protect him while he summons more.
Hellhounds are a little obvious but not all summoned creatures are.
Finally an use for the "Marked by Power" Power ;D
Nice thinking. Need to remember this.
While I see this for summoning actual existing creatures. I have (as stated multiple times) a problem with Magical Constructs.
But since you (sort of) used an HR to limit Magical Constructs, we are on the same page. Our House Rules are different, but we agree that AI Magical Constructs need an limitation. Do you agree?
Not really. There are never any rules at all listed to deal with making magical Ais (beyond a statement in OW on p. 31 that it requires a large investment of magical power). The type of Construct Work that uses the Summoning rules is the kind that is summoning. AIs aren’t ever even implied to use the same.I would argue, they are implied because AI rules are missing.
It could break the binding. In fact, the GM can always break any binding by giving the bound creature a Major Milestone…breaking it’s binding by removing the Extreme Consequence.You are asuming the Creature has an Extreme Consequence and that the Consequence is: Bound.
See the first book, and Morgan getting antsy about Harry putting Toot-toot in a circle, or how worried he was about the Wardens not taking him summoning up Chancy well. It’s not technically a violation, but Wardens can still very much get on your case about it. And humane ones will do so.But Harry was under the Doom of Damocles and still got away. And what has humane to do with it? Will Wardens kill you if you hit an hound/cat whatever?
True enough. But on the other hand, a PC could make friends with Thor in a bar, and get an even nastier friend. If the GM lets him.???
I would argue, they are implied because AI rules are missing.
You need to have an rule if you want to use an AI Construct. (or use an existing rule [Summoning and Binding] but then they get overpowered)
So since there is no rule you need to make on = House Rule.
And as for rules for Rakshasha, there are rules. Its called Character Generation... ;)
You are asuming the Creature has an Extreme Consequence and that the Consequence is: Bound.
I see two problems with it:
1. It could be bound without an Extreme Consequence.
2. IF it had the Extreme Consequence "Bound" it would be bound until it got an Major Milestone... That could be a long time. (And no need to shift power into duration).
But Harry was under the Doom of Damocles and still got away. And what has humane to do with it? Will Wardens kill you if you hit an hound/cat whatever?
???
That could be read as, you dont let PC's be Summoner?
Or if you have an Summoner in the party, the non-Summoner gets Thor as an buddy?
I hope that was a joke...
I disagree. A lack of rules for something doesn't necessarily imply that it works just like something else. It can, but it doesn't have to, and saying it doesn't isn't really a House Rule.But making rules for AI Construct is definitly a House rule. And you did that. You didnt say I dont allow AI Constructs because there are no rules for them...
True, though I'd be inclined to see Extreme Consequences as a fairly normal way to bind things.But then you wouldnt need shifts for extra duration.
Probably not, but a nice Warden who sees someone mistreating their Golem might well decide to do something about it. Kill them? Maybe, maybe not. Work magic to free the golem? Quite a bit more likely.Sounds like an Ex-Warden to me. Or an recipe for Civil War. Next you tell me an Warden tries to free cars from the oppression of their recless drivers?
Sorta. Though I'd likely let a PC do precisely that. Having powerful allies doesn't make PCs invulnrable, and I've never been shy about allowing it, nor should you be. I mean, look at Harry. He's personal friends with a Senior Council Member (as well as something like two dozen werewolves, the Summer Lady and Knight, and quite a few other people)...has that stopped him from getting in trouble?
But making rules for AI Construct is definitly a House rule. And you did that. You didnt say I dont allow AI Constructs because there are no rules for them...
But then you wouldnt need shifts for extra duration.
Sounds like an Ex-Warden to me. Or an recipe for Civil War. Next you tell me an Warden tries to free cars from the oppression of their recless drivers?
An Warden that attacks an Wizard for something thats not an violation of an Law of Magic (and freeing an Golem is definitivly an attack)...
If that Warden is an PC and he tries to free an Stone Hound from Martha Liberty, what would you say to him?
We were talking about NPC followers. (like Marcones goos). Got to Summoned NPC's are likely more powerfull. Got to meeting Thor and are now by distant NPC's who might do some favors from time to time.
At this point, we are talking in circles and I think we should stop. We have both our standpoint, nobody is likely to change his mind...
Uh…not allowing things just because there aren’t specifically rules for them is actually explicitly against the rules. Saying “Yes” is actually right in there.I'm not saying you should not allow it. But the moment you need to invent rules you have a House Rule. No problem with an House Rule. You should only be honest about it: Yeah the rules are unclear about that, this is how I rule it.
Wardens are given very broad powers in how they pursue their duties. Morgan tried to kill Harry (albeit indirectly) and got off without much of any punishment at all. He had backing, but so will others doing this sort of thing. Violating free will IS against a Law of Magic…and while it’s technically a grey area doing it to non-humans, it’s up to the individual Warden how to deal with grey areas.Thats Harrys (an law-breaking Wizard!) perspective talking here.
Well, the Ward Hounds aren’t mistreated, and that’s a false comparison anyway.Well you brought the mistreadment of Golems on the table. And its all in the eye of the beholder...
It’s like bringing up attacking Listens-to-Wind as an example of why attacking any Wizard is suicide. The Senior Council are rather obviously people you should tread lightly around.Its dangerous, you dont do it if there isnt a clear law violation.
Also, BTW, it’s Ancient Mai, not Martha Liberty who does the hounds.Yeah, got them confused.
Well, who's army was it to start with? How are you going to get that many names?
But lets drop the matter of uber-powerfull summons for the moment. Does nobody see a problem with summoning an Army?
100 hundred magical constructs on the powerlevel of an Hellhound? (little more of 8 hours nonstop summoning and binding).
Its not as problematic as the mass summoning of Powerfull Things and workable. But its hard on the overpowered mark.
But lets drop the matter of uber-powerfull summons for the moment. Does nobody see a problem with summoning an Army?
100 hundred magical constructs on the powerlevel of an Hellhound? (little more of 8 hours nonstop summoning and binding).
Its not as problematic as the mass summoning of Powerfull Things and workable. But its hard on the overpowered mark.
I'm not saying you should not allow it. But the moment you need to invent rules you have a House Rule. No problem with an House Rule. You should only be honest about it: Yeah the rules are unclear about that, this is how I rule it.
So you could say: The rules say you should make houserules when needed, but its still an House Rule.
Thats Harrys (an law-breaking Wizard!) perspective talking here.
If Wardens could kill non-law violating Wizards without repercussions, only because they dont like his attitude...
Then some Warden would do that and we would have an Civil War within the White Council. They cant have unlimited power, otherwise every powerhungry would be Warlock would try to get into the outfit.
Well you brought the mistreadment of Golems on the table. And its all in the eye of the beholder...
I bet those golems dont have an 38,5 hour work week. They dont get paid. Must fight to the dead...
Its dangerous, you dont do it if there isnt a clear law violation.
So the Senior Council is out of reach for the Wardens.
How about some random 400 years old Wizard, who is not on the senior Council?
(And who dont have the modern view of what is an abuse and what is normal.)
Yeah, got them confused.
Here another try of an Summoning Character, this one with more justification for the social side of Summoning and Binding.
High Aspect: Mortal General for the War Department of the Chinese Hell as described in this books (http://www.webscription.net/p-936-snake-agent.aspx)
Trouble: Stupid Orders
Other Aspects: Demons under my Command
Marked by Power -1
Item of Power: Scepter of Command (Spear) +2
Human Form +1
(when using the Item, the Gerneral shows full body (glowing) Tatoos which proclaim his allegiance to the War Department)
Ritual: Summoning and Binding -2
Refinement x 2 -2 (4 Extra Focus Item Slots = 6 Item Slots) +5 Complexity +1 Controll
-------------
Total -1 Refresh
Refinement -1 (2 Focus Item Slots converted into 4 Enchanted Item Slots)
Physical Immunity (only against Mortal Magic) -3
Supernatural Recovery -4
Catch: Wood +3
-------------
Total -1 Refresh
Lawbreaker First (multiple times) -2
Total Refresh Cost of Char. -9
Summoned Item Crafter:
-3 Thaumaturgy +1 Item Crafting Power (Focus Items +2 Wards Complexity)
-21 Refinement
+6 Item Frequency,
+5 Item Power,
+5 Wards Complexity
+4 Wards Controll, +4 Transformation Complexity
+3 Transformation Controll, +3 Divination Complexity
+2 Divination Controll, +2 Summoning Complexity, +2 Summoning Controll, +2 Conjuration Complexity
+1 Conjuration Controll, +1 Transportation Complexity, +1 Transportaion Controll, +1 Veils Complexity
-2 Inhuman Strenght
-2 Inhuman Thoughness
-2 Inhuman Recovery
+3 Catch: Wood
Skills:
Superb +5: Lore, Resourcess
Great +4: Discipline, Conviction
The General orders his Magic Items by this Demon (and his Home is warded by this Demon).
Tai Chi clothes of hellish Protection (Block +10 or Armor +5 / 7 uses per session).
Silk gloves of Sudden painfull Death (to hit with Guns, Damage +8 / 9 uses per session).
Kukri of Dimensional Rending (opens door into the NeverNever +6 effect / 11 uses per session).
Facemask of Skulking (Veil +8 / 9 uses per session)
Bodyguard/Guide in the NeverNever
-4 Supernatural Speed
-2 Supernatural Strenght
-4 Supernatural Recovery
+3 Catch: Wood
-8 Physical Immunity
Catch +2: Taoistic holy relicts
-1 Claws
-1 Flesh Mask
Skills:
Superb +5: Lore, Awareness
Great +4: Fists, Endurance
I'm sorry, I'm too busy destroying the planet with antimatter to bother with summoning anything else.
Heh. Yeah, just no. Technically legal in theory, but no GM in their right mind would allow the first summoned creature to be doing shit for any PC without payment (probably major and excessive payment), any more than they‘d let you have Thor as your personal bitch as an Emissary of Odin (which is also technically legal).
The second is a possibility, but it doesn’t help you much when they target you directly.
Antimatter is still an theory? Or did we get some antimatter made in RL and I missed it?
Fluffwise I see no reason why an Emisarry of Power couldnt command the underlings of his employer. You could even argue he doesnt need to bind them...
(This is the reason I have problems with Knight of the Fairy Courts too. I think I will lift the Emisary of Power to the same Power/refresh level as Denarians)
We make antimatter all the time. It's just ridiculously energy intensive, and can't be contained.
Even if it's ruled to "matter only", though, just create a boatload of polonium dust. The LD-50 is about a microgram or so, so a kg or so could in theory decimate the world's population.
And these are things that are certainly less complicated to make than, say, a sword or an ice cream cone or a vine or something. It's just pure substance.
I think you're looking at Emissary of Power wrong. An Emissary can represent their liege and serve as a messenger for their commands, but unless doing so they don't necessarily have any authority over their other people (though they likely do over lesser servants).
Thats one interpretation. An limiting interpretation that is (IMHO) not supported by the books.
In the books, taking the Mantle of the Winter Knight gains equivalent power to taking up one of the Coins.
()(click to show/hide)
I tend to agree that the Summer and Winter Knights specifically are more powerful than portrayed in their writeups and not good material for starting PCs, but that's a very specific example, and using it to say all Emissaries are inappropriate a bit like using Kincaid's write-up to suggest all Scions are inappropriate. They're exceptionally powerful examples of a template, but not all examples are so excessive.
Emissary of Power
...
Knights of the Faerie Courts are an example of this, as are—by certain lights—Champions of God such as the Knights of the Cross. (Both have their own templates found elsewhere in this chapter.)
Heh. Yeah, just no. Technically legal in theory, but no GM in their right mind would allow the first summoned creature to be doing shit for any PC without payment (probably major and excessive payment), any more than they‘d let you have Thor as your personal bitch as an Emissary of Odin (which is also technically legal).Are we back on-topic? Do we have an overpowered Char?
Well, who's army was it to start with? How are you going to get that many names?Thats the reason I wrote "Magical Construct" and even if you ban AI Constructs or copies of your on Mind (see Stone Warden Dogs) look at the General build.
I'd also like to throw out the idea that any character who routinely spends 8 hours summoning and binding an army is A) not being played realistically, B) being given problems that are too simplistic (and thus CAN be solved just by summoning a giant army), and C) is being given far too much time to deal with their problems.Are you serious?
Looks like the same power Level to me. But lets drop this point.Even if we (I) scratch this Template and the Knights of the Faerie Court...
Actually I dont scratch the Template. I scratch the fluff of this Templates for starting Characters...
But another question to an earlier post from you:Are we back on-topic? Do we have an overpowered Char?
How could the Demon even try to not do as commanded?
1. He is bound and is under the control of the binder.
2. Afterwards he cant get revenge, because he would get a problem with his own boss? And its not as if it doesnt get screwed by his superiours anyway. So its not even something that stands out in his memory.
Hell (no pun intended) the time out of Hell (or is it intended?) is basically an Holliday for him...
"Hey boss, I'm finished with your Armor. But I think I could upgrade the Ward with a little more time..."
Thats the reason I wrote "Magical Construct" and even if you ban AI Constructs or copies of your on Mind (see Stone Warden Dogs) look at the General build.
He gets the names from his employer...
Are you serious?
A) ??? Is an Char unrealistic who only works 8 hours per month? Because of too much work? Then any normal mortal who didnt won in the lottery is unrealistic?
B) Do you think he can use the "Army" only for fighting, because I wrote Army there? He can have the right tool for the right job every time he wants it. Scouting, no Problem. Fighting, no Problem. Information gathering, no Problem. Fast talkin, no Problem. Going to jail for you (Go to the Police and make an "I did it" statement), no Problem. And so on...
C) ??? The Chars in you game dont have 8 uninterupted hours in an month?
And even then, he coud divide those 8 hours in sixteen half hours and summon and bind creatures before he goes to bed.
Are you serious?
A) ??? Is an Char unrealistic who only works 8 hours per month? Because of too much work? Then any normal mortal who didnt won in the lottery is unrealistic?
B) Do you think he can use the "Army" only for fighting, because I wrote Army there? He can have the right tool for the right job every time he wants it. Scouting, no Problem. Fighting, no Problem. Information gathering, no Problem. Fast talkin, no Problem. Going to jail for you (Go to the Police and make an "I did it" statement), no Problem. And so on...
C) ??? The Chars in you game dont have 8 uninterupted hours in an month?
And even then, he coud divide those 8 hours in sixteen half hours and summon and bind creatures before he goes to bed.
I think his point is that they won’t have time to do it in an adventure. And personally, I’d say this kind of constant mass binding is probably about as likely to get you dead as a single big-thing binding. Every non-bound critter in the city will constantly be trying to kill you, just so you don’t enslave them someday.
Not in any mechanical sense. He’s overpowered in the same sense as a PC President of the United States, because he has access to things no sane GM gives a player access to, but he’s not mechanically overpowered. Summoning isn’t the problem, it’s allowing concepts that intrinsically grant such implicit and non-mechanical benefits.Sanity is relative. There are character concepts that one GM may reject that another may accept. It does not make the other GM insane. Similarly just because you see such a thing as one that no sane GM will give a player access to does not necessarily mean that it actually is insane.
Sure, and the President can nuke you, or the CIA director have you assassinated. So? They’re not appropriate PC concepts and thus disallowed in all sane games. No game can actually prevent this kind of thing, because it’s an issue with the non-mechanical aspects of the game.
Again you presume the sanity of a GM who would allow such a character in the kind of game the DFRPG is intended to be.
Further, is it not the writers' intent that once the book reaches the GM's hands, it is up to him to decide what kind of game he intends to run?
Yep! :)It would just as likely that a GM that doesn't allow such characters that is insane. I am a firm believer that there is no such thing as a "typical" PC, just a PC that is well built or not. Allowing a well built character in a group of well built PCs will not lead to power imbalances. If the GM has in his mind what a typical PC should look like will inevitably lead to similar-looking PCs and boring game, which are no fun for anybody and is generally an even worse idea.
Allowing such a character in a group of more typical PCs will inevitably lead to power imbalances, which are no fun for anybody, and generally a bad idea.
The same with allowing characters to be the President (or someone with dieties on call). It's something the game was never intended for and can't really be expected to have rules to accomodate. It's certainly overpowered but not mechanically overpowered in the way, say, Moriden's first listed character was, because it's power is pretty much entirely based on having a GM who will allow you to play such a thing. The stats are immaterial, you could have absolutely no powers aside from Marked By Power (clearly a reasonable ability on it's own), and a ridiculously bad skill array, and you could still be General of the Demon Army and have god-level beings on call who must do exactly as you say if the GM let you. It's not an overpowered character mechanically, just conceptually.
But really, you know that already. You wouldn't actually allow a character with a Death Star and Star-Trek style transporter in a Dresden Files game where the other PCs are an ordinary Cop with some good gun skills and a novice wizard. Nor even the mystical equivalent. Nor an army of 10,000 screaming demons all capable of slaying gods. Those are what I mean by inappropriate concepts. And yes, the Demon General and the President of the United States are absolutely in that category (if somewhat less obvious as examples).
Ether way the character fulfills what the OP asked for, examples of character that from a mechanical or other standpoint he should be looking out for.
Uh. My point is that you can't make materials. You can make something that looks like gold, or even antimatter, but it's not really, it's ectoplasm, and it doesn't necessarily have any chemical, physical, or mystical properties of the material it's duplicating.Oh, good. Next time a demon tries to hit my character with poisonous fangs, I have a great counterargument.
Now, I might allow a Faerie to make things that duplicate the effects of things they're familiar enough with, like alcohol, or arsenic, but certainly not radioactive compounds. And even that's something of a house rule, the intent is clearly that it flat-out can't duplicate material compositions at all.