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Messages - Mira

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How could an exchange take place when Lea possessed both Harry's debt and the Knife?  Also Maeve enters into this at some point as well..  She also had gotten the Knife either from Lea or her mother, that is how she got infected before Mab realized the Knife was infected in the first place.. See Cold Days..   Another question, since Lea was Harry's godmother, why didn't that give her more say over his debt to her?  Also as of Summer Knight, Lea was not yet symptoms of infection from the Knife.

I think it was a bit more complicated than a simple exchange....  Lea had made a promise to Harry's mother to keep him safe,  I think Mab wanted him dead and Lea exchanged his debt to her for his life...  I don't think the Knife was part of that exchange, I think Lea had already passed it on to Maeve... 

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To be honest, I believe that Harry is correct in keeping info from people on the lower rungs of power in the DV. It is not his fault that they (Susan, Kim etc) are independent & proud - they certainly deserve most of the blame for explicitly doing things Harry tells them not to - & they pay for it. They do this because being a go-getter in the mortal world has worked out for them, but the supernatural world plays by different rules where one’s power level generally unlocks appropriately dangerous knowledge. Kim & Susan don’t understand this - Murphy is more situationally aware from her police work & I don’t recall Molly getting hurt from Harry withholding info (he hurts her unintentionally). Blaming Harry for this removes his agency, not theirs.

Most of the arguments I’ve read in this thread seem to focus on Harry not going out of his way to explain the rules & dangers of the supernatural world appropriately to the noob ladies in his life, but I disagree - no one is forcing Kim to build a circle that Harry would have trouble with or Susan to come to Bianca’s shindig where Harry is unsure he’ll make it out alive -they made these decisions with his express disapproval. Additionally I don’t think for a second that if Harry turned them down, they wouldn’t have looked elsewhere (more dangerous places) for that info which might’ve worked out even worse for them. I don’t understand the commenters who think that without Harry, Kim & Susan wouldn’t have figured out a way to dabble in the supernatural world. They are smart, dogged & connected enough to make this happen regardless of Harry - he just made it easier since he’s a good person.

It’s kinda like abortion or teen sex - whether you agree or disagree about the morality of the acts, it’s not going to dissuade the determined from going through with it even if they’re aware of the dangers.

I agree with most of this...

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I wouldn't argue that Harry hasn't hurt people. Harry is arguably a murderer. He has killed a lot of people and not people. My argument is very specific. Harry withholding information hasn't hurt anyone (in the short term because we can't predict long term effects) with the exception of not telling Murphy about the White Council and the Doom in Storm Front.
Harry has killed people, but that doesn't make him a murderer,  no more than a soldier under most circumstances is a murder in war.  Harry doesn't deliberately kill innocents.
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There will never be a point, where you can definitively  say Harry withholding X led to Y.  If that is your argument, it's unimpeachable.  You can impeach the reason that he uses for withholding information, by looking at outcomes against the times he's used it.  He trying to protect Kim.  She dies.  He's trying to protect Susan, he ends up cutting her throat.  He tries to protect the Alphas,  Kirby gets killed Andi almost so. As a strategy it appears to not work very well.

It would have made no difference as others have pointed out to tell Kim everything about that circle or not... She was determined to make it in spite of Harry telling her she didn't have the experience and training to do so... He might have known she was lying, but he couldn't force her to tell the truth either if she was determined to be the one to create the circle..  As pointed out with Susan, she wanted that damn scoop, she stole the invitation, she then forged it, how do you protect against that?  She sowed the seeds of her own fate, not Harry.  As to Kirby's death, Harry didn't try to protect the Alphas when that happened, he told them what he knew, which wasn't much save it was  bad and powerful...  It was Will who made the decision to send his team in even though they didn't have a whole lot of information as to what they were up against, and as he told Harry, they'd do it again..
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There an old saying, you can't be a little bit pregnant.  Either tell everything you know or tell nothing at all.  Harry straddles the fence, and that just makes you sore.

And then there are secrets that must be kept, they are not Harry's secrets, but still as a member of the White Council he must keep them....

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Major downside of ebooks/audiobooks. Much more difficult to direct people to the right spot for quotes.

True, but still important, even with audiobooks and ebooks, chapters at least can be given.

6439
DF Spoilers / Re: A Question About Naagloshii
« on: June 10, 2019, 03:04:26 PM »
Or he could do what a lot of men do.

Exactly, only worse than what the worst of the worst of men would do....

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The passages I quoted would have been better had they been longer, I was lazy.

   With all due respect, do not be lazy about your quotes..  Give page numbers as well as book titles, context is very important...  Not saying you are doing this, but quotes without context or edited can be easily twisted one way or another... At least by giving the page number, oh and saying it is hard back or paperback as well because the pages don't always line up, gives the rest of us to go back and read for ourselves...  It enhances the debate and give both sides of it better grounds to support or refute..

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However, remember Mab's words to Harry after the fight on Demonreach in Cold Days. Quoting Mab.
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    You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence.

And.
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    I stood there with my mouth open for a second.  "That...that isn't...what I did."
    Mab leaned closer to me and said, "That is precisely what you did," she said.

I creatively edited those quotes.  What he does in Changes is the one time the trope is turned upside down.  He gets her to use Black Magic to wipe his mind so that Mab won't know he caused his own death.  Thus according to your addiction theory, giving heroin to a heroin addict. Bails on her, violating her probation.  And gets her shot and mind f****d at Chichen Itza.  If there is a clear example that Harry has hurt someone, this is it.  Anyway, as usual, it's been fun.  Thanks.

I repeat it gets complicated....  Just what do you mean by "creative editing?" 

As I said it gets complicated, first of all, it is still her choice whether to mind wipe Harry or not.. Molly admits that freely.. The Fae may not outright lie, however they can twist the truth to their own purpose, Mab wanted Molly herself, she knows Harry better than he knows himself and uses that knowledge to manipulate him...  Molly went to C.I. of her own free will, if I remember correctly Harry didn't want her to go in the first place..   In the spirit of what Mab told him about he should not have kept magical knowledge from Molly, that is why she went warlock in the first place is B.S.  To begin
with Harry had no clue she had talent in the first place until Proven Guilty..  He didn't know until then that Charity had had talent and misused it when young and kept that knowledge quiet...  So while Mab spoke the truth as far as Molly looking up to Harry, she omitted the above, which is rather critical..  Also as a huge advocate of parental responsibility,  her parents are the ones that bare the blame..  They never told him that Charity had talent or what to do if it shows up in one of their kids..
Charity nursed Harry's wounds, but she never approved of him or his magic, if he tried to teach anything to young Molly if he had guessed she was talented, Charity would have had made a coat with his guts... 


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DF Spoilers / Re: Fate of the original Merlin
« on: June 10, 2019, 11:02:09 AM »


Two things, the original Merlin wouldn't speak with what we know today as an "English" accent.. He existed long before that was spoken..  Jim often gives bad guys an English accent, if I remember right HWWB spoke with an English accent.

In in mythology the Lady of the Lake tangled him in a thornbush and there he sleeps till this day..

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DF Spoilers / Re: A Question About Naagloshii
« on: June 09, 2019, 10:56:05 PM »
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I severely doubt the a skinwalker (who is supposed to be evil) would be interested in having a human love it.  Given what Jim has told us about them, I think it more likely that it would rape a nun and torture her for nine months rather than have a woman believe that she (nun or not) was in love for nine months.

A skinwalker is clever, sadistic and is very capable of taking human form and seducing a woman if the incentive was good enough to do it...  Love is irrational, especially a mother's love..  So it would reveal itself after the child was born, then continue to get at the mother through her child...

6444
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I brought up the addiction thing specifically in response to your claim that, since Molly violated the terms of her parole even though the consequence of doing so was death, then no consequence would be sufficient to prevent Kim from doing what she did. However, this is comparing apples to oranges. Molly is a recovering addict falling off the wagon. Kim is a college student who decides to shoplift because she doesn't want to admit to her parents that she needs money. The situations are not at all the same, and consequences that the addict will ignore can and frequently will be enough to prevent the college student from doing things.


Comparing Kim to the college student who steals instead of admitting and asking her parents for money is perfect.    I think in Molly's case that she is an addict may be a bit simplistic,  I say that because she had a real rational for using it however misguided it might have been.

Perhaps brains are not fully formed until the mid-twenties, however that doesn't stop the law from allowing young men and women to drive a car, own a gun, [even now in many places 21, Kim was at least that age] go to war, drinking, voting, running for office,  marrying, becoming a parent, or receiving the death penalty and being put to death for actions they took before their brains are fully formed.   In other words whether the brain if fully formed or not, at some point young people are expected to take responsibility for their actions.. 

6445
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Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this.  Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless.  But she was evidently unable to  correctly judge her level of knowledge.  This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance.  Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic.  He failed in the obligation he assumed.  As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.

Except you are asking too much....    You are omitting Kim's failure to be honest with Harry as to why she wanted to know how to make this circle..  Kim is young, but she was an adult, not a child..  One of the things that pissed her off is Harry was close to her age and he knew how make it and she didn't.. 

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What would your moral ground be like if you left a gun out where a child could get it, with no more protection for the child  then your assertion to the child that the gun was dangerous and they should leave it be?  If you hesitate before you answer, don't have kids.  They have no agency, they can't be responsible.  Children die every year because parents fail to understand this.

Poor analogy...   As a parent you keep the guns locked up, however if your child should ask how a gun works, you answer as best you can, also conveying that they can kill, with the assumption that your child isn't going to get his or her hands on a gun, at least not in your house.... You cannot be responsible for what the other parents do in their houses... So if you kid goes to his friends house thinking he knows how to shoot a gun that was left out just because you answered his questions.. Does that make you responsible? Or the the parents of his friend?  Or might your kid have grabbed and shot the gun anyway even if you had refused to tell him anything about how a gun worked.... Or possible, because you gave some information adding how dangerous they were, your kid doesn't touch it, but the other kid does and he still dies...
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You will probably not agree with me when I assert that Kim had no agency in this matter.  She simply wasn't experienced enough with magic to gauge her capabilities.  This will arise again when he takes on Molly as an apprentice.  In Turn Coat Molly will attempt to use mind magic on Luccio. And it is only because Morgan chooses to take that knowledge to the grave that Molly and Harry don't lose their heads.  And Molly knew she was under the Doom of Damocles.  In other words Harry and the Council put the gun on the table and told her not to touch it.

Doesn't work, Molly knows perfectly well what she is capable of, that is why she does the mind magic on Luccio.  Her motives might have been good, but she was well aware that she was breaking one of the Seven Laws by doing so... She simply chose to disregard them..

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Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this.  Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless.  But she was evidently unable to  correctly judge her level of knowledge.  This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance.  Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic.  He failed in the obligation he assumed.  As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.

I disagree, she knew perfectly well what she was doing...  That is why she repeatedly lied to Harry about what she wanted the information for.  She may have misjudged her capabilities, but she wasn't innocently asking Harry academic questions for the sake of knowledge... She was using him trying to trick him into passing on restricted knowledge to her.   Actually the irresponsible thing for him to do would be to give her the whole how to..   She wasn't even an apprentice and a little knowledge is dangerous, especially is she got tempted by the dark...

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@Mira
I made that comparison to show that in a fight that Harry and the werewolves were outmatched.  There was no defense possible.  In the book the only one who gets close is Listens To Wind. The devil is in the details, but I think we are in the same Church, but in different pews.

Again, at the point when Kirby died, Harry had no clue what they were up against.... However by Will's own logic, that he is responsible for the safety of his pack, it is all his fault that Kirby died...  Will knew what it had done to Harry and more to the point he also knew that at that moment Harry couldn't or wouldn't give him more information about what was after him.... Will still called in his pack to face unknown danger.  End of story..   No, if there is responsibility to taken, it is on Will..

He isn't wrong about informed consent, that he is responsible for his people and they have to know what they are up against before they go in...  It is hard to say whether or not Kirby would have lived had they known and chose to still go in.. As you say a skinwalker was beyond all of them in the first place... However at that moment, none of them knew what it was, not Harry, not anyone.. Yet, Will called his team in and they elected to back Harry and fight..  Given his own sound logic, when Will told Harry that Kirby might have lived had they known more, Will was blaming himself, not Harry. Because it was Will's decision to send his team in blind..

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    And I abruptly understood Kim Delaney’s request. She had to have known Harley MacFinn, maybe through her environmental activism. She must have learned of his curse, and wanted to help him. When I had refused to help her, she had attempted to re-create the greater summoning circle upstairs in the bedroom, to hold in MacFinn once the moon rose. As I had warned her would happen, she had failed. She hadn’t had the knowledge necessary to understand how such a construct would function, and consequently, she hadn’t been able to make it work.
    MacFinn had killed her. Kim was dead because I had refused to share my knowledge with her, because I hadn’t given her my help. I had been so secure in my knowledge and wisdom; withholding such secrets from her had been the action of a concerned and reasoned adult speaking to an overeager child. I couldn’t believe my own arrogance, the utter confidence with which I had condemned her to death.

So he had misgivings at Mac's and surprise, surprise, she dies.  So McFinn killed her, because the FBI agents destroyed his circle, because she made a bad choice, because she knew just enough to get her killed, and Harry could have said show me your problem and if I can I will help. Break any of those links in the chain and Kim doesn't die.  Harry was the last man standing who could have changed the outcome once the events were moving.  Harry's moral failure is in assuming responsibility for helping her, and then not doing so.

No, Kim is dead because MacFinn killed her...  Kim is dead because she thought she could handle something that was way above her pay grade... She is dead because she didn't trust Harry enough to tell him the truth about why she wanted the knowledge in the first place.  Harry did help her, he began to answer her questions as an academic exercise... That is what she said she wanted... He asks her again and again, same answer.....  Kim is dead because she withheld knowledge from Harry.  Do you think for on moment he wouldn't have helped her if she actually told him why she needed the circle?   The answer is no, he would have helped her in a heart beat and maybe have died beside her..

Harry feels responsible because he gave her some knowledge but not all... However as he told her, she didn't have the training to pull it off... I can give you a book on how to fly a jet, but it takes a lot more than a how to book to actually do it..  So even if he gave all the information to her, most likely she still would have failed, if for no other reason she'b be trying to construct is under all kinds of pressure..  Harry beats himself up because of his arrogance thinking because he refused to give her forbidden knowledge she died... Yeah, it is arrogant thinking it was his fault..  It isn't, it was Kim's arrogance in not telling Harry the truth, very much like the same mistake Susan made, in spite the warnings from Harry she believes she can pull it off as easily as he, a full wizard could... After all how hard can it be?  How dangerous can a Loop really be?  MacFinn was herclient, she wasn't going to share either the fee nor the fame with Harry, so she withheld knowledge because she didn't want him butting in...  She refused to listen when Harry brought up training..  Training isn't the same as knowledge, it is about muscle memory and a lot of other things, she didn't have it to pull off such a thing as Harry had told her...  Her response was childish,"you think I don't have the juice..." because how hard can it be??

6448
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Mira
The attack at Raith Manor reflects the attack on the Alphas.  The point, to me, is to show this isn't about how Kirby could be saved.  It's about showing that Harry's strategy isn't working. See below.

It is a poor comparison....  It doesn't fit because when Kirby was killed, all Harry knew was this big
ugly thing was following him and had him all screwed up..  Will's place was the closest where he found refuge... That is all he knew, he had no strategy because he himself didn't know what he was going up against except it was very bad....   He couldn't withhold what he didn't know, plain and simple..

The attack on the Raith mansion is when Luccio and Harry have an interview with Lara to find out if it is she who has hired someone to follow Dresden, also if she has anything to do with the framing of Morgan..  That is when the skinwalker attacks and leaves the necklace that belongs to Thomas hinting at a trade... He is also trying to get Lara to cooperate...  So far I see nothing in common with what happened to Kirby, or that withholding information on Harry's part would have made any difference at the mansion..

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1)The first belief was that there was safety in ignorance.
2)The second that he could involve them without exposing them to what he said he was trying to protect them from.

However that isn't what happened when Kirby died...  What set Will off what Harry said he couldn't tell him what was really going down on the island.. Will countered that he has the right to know, which Harry agreed that he did..
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Harry denies them the ability to exercise informed consent.  It isn't about changing the outcome, it's about Wills right to make his own judgement about what is best for his pack and how best to move.
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From that stand point it is ALL Will's fault that Kirby died...  He is the one who called his pack to fight even though Harry was unable to give him any more information than he did about what they were up against...  End of story...

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@Mira
The point of bringing up the attack at Raith Manor is to point out that once Harry had led the skinwalker to the Alphas, that someone would die if the skinwalker wanted them dead.  The Alphas had not a chance in hell.  This is the nature of Harry's failure.  Harry as written, believed in two contradictory things, that he could protect them by keeping them in the dark and that he could use them without this eventually happening.

No, the event with Kirby happened before that attack on Raith Manor... Biggest point Harry had no clue what is was he saw, it put him in a state of collapse when he showed up at Will and Georgia's house... Only after the first battle did he realize it was a skinwalker, and he told Will straight off....
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1. Kirby died because Harry withheld information.
No, Harry had with held nothing, all he knew was it was big, bad, and so ugly it made him catatonic, he conveyed that information, the pack still backed him..
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2. The skinwalker was going to kill Kirby no matter what Harry did
Most likely, only difference Kirby would have known what killed him when it did..

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I don't understand how anyone can agree with both statements. (I agree with statement two, mostly. The skinwalker killed Kirby as a message; therefore, it could have killed a different Alpha because Harry did something that lead to different results, but the skinwalker was definitely going to kill an Alpha if Harry went to Will's place).

I read the quote, mostly because I can't see how fully briefing Billy would have changed anything, as either Harry illogically blaming his withholding of information for Kirby's death or simply stating that Billy wasn't going to follow blindly because Kirby died. Kirby's death cements the seriousness of Will's role as leader for Will.

No one has demonstrated how Harry briefing Billy on the wider world of the supernatural could have saved Kirby. Until someone does that, I'm going to remain obstinate in my position that Harry's withholding of information did not get Kirby killed. I'll go so far as to say it is hypothetically possible, but that's it until someone can at least give me a hypothetical.

Even if in the text Billy said "Kirby is dead because you withheld information from us," and Dresden said "That is correct," I would still say "what" because, as you said, the skinwalker was going to kill whoever it wanted anyway.

How about instead, we take everyone's position, average them, and agree that I'm right?  ;)

Page 29, Harry is just coming out of his catatonic state at Will's house...
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"What is it?" Billy asked quietly.
"I don't know," I said. "But it is real bad."  I glanced at Georgia.
"How long was I down?"
She checked her watch./  "Eighty-two minutes."

page 33 Just after Kirby died..
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Billy looked up at me, Kirby's blood all over his face and hand.
"What is it, Harry?"
"A Native American nightmare,"  I said, I looked at him grimly, "A skinwalker."
Then on page 35
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"What are you going to do?"
"Find out why it's here," I said.  "There's Council business afoot.  Christ, I didn't mean to bring you into this."  I stared toward the knot of officers around Kirby's corpse.  "I didn't mean for this to happen."
"Kirby was an adult, Desden,"Billy said.  "He knew what could happen.  He chose to be here."
Which was the truth.  But it didn't help.  Kirby was still dead.I hadn't known what a skinwalker was before, beyond something awlful, but that didn't change things..

The attack on Raith Manner didn't happen until page 180... So how could have Harry used that information to warn the Alphas about the skinwalker that he had run into back on page 20 something that he only knew was bad, ugly, and dangerous, no name?  When as we saw back on page 33 he just found out was a skinwalker and Kirby was already dead!  Since Harry had no clue what the big bad ugly thing was how did was he deceptively leading the Alphas to it?

page 219.... Will tells Harry he had talked to Kirby's folks....

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I sighed.  "I'm sorry."
He shrugged.  "Kirby knew the risks.  He'd rather have died than stand by and do nothing..

It is a little further down when Harry says...
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I nodded.  "It's part of something bigger I cannot talk about everything that is going on. 

That is when Will becomes unglued, he does say perhaps if they knew more, maybe Kirby would still be alive... However he knows perfectly well as we the readers know Harry didn't know what it was they were going up against when Kirby died back on page 33... And even if he knew, Kirby and company would still have been there for Harry..

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@Morris: What, precisely, does that quote answer? It's reasons why Billy thinks he should be fully informed. He's not really even asking that Harry inform the Alphas of everything, only their leader. He's also stating that changing past actions could have, but not necessarily would have, changed the outcome. And as you said, what happened at the Raith mansion is pretty strong evidence that Harry could not have adequately prepared them for the attack.

However Kirby's death happened before the attack on the Raith mansion...   Harry had no clue until the aftermath of the attack that killed Kirby that it was a skinwalker..  At that point Harry didn't know that much himself about them except they were bad ass and looking at one with his wizard's sight made him nearly catatonic for an hour and half...  So basically when Kirby and company came to Harry's aid that first time he had no information to give beyond what he had... So again, as Will himself said, Kirby's death was not on Harry...  Keeping stuff back after that when he had more information is another story...  All of the above is in the text...  Saying that Harry owes them more information doesn't mean he blames him for Kirby's death... All Will is saying they have proven with Kirby's death that they are willing to lay it all on the line for him, and that the least Harry can do is give them all the information he has...

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