Come to think of it there could be other characters who have died that we might see later that were enlisted by Odin... Susan for example. Or Morgan... I mean anyone Jim decides to bring back now has a doorway since we know that Odin, and Valkyries exist.
Karen is going to be regulated to being a side character. she is eventually is going to Mary Dresden and take on the role of step mother to Maggie. this is not going to mean she is written out of the story it just means she will no longer be seeking to be the one who takes on the big bad monster. I am sure she will still have times that she does bad assery and kick some supernatural butt. now it will be her avoiding it but every once in a while being forced into kicking butt in defense of loved ones.
-There is no indication that Odin is still taking applications for Einherjaren.
As far as I understand from reading well constructed arguments on the forum, Odin and the Einherjaren used to hold Mab's responsibility of guarding the outer gates against the outsiders until the Fae took over. No need to fight Ragnarok anymore when the Winter Court is doing it.
It's pretty clear that she was preparing to fulfill her "chooser of the slain" role and make each of them an afterlife job offer.
Karen is going to be regulated to being a side character. she is eventually is going to Mary Dresden and take on the role of step mother to Maggie. this is not going to mean she is written out of the story it just means she will no longer be seeking to be the one who takes on the big bad monster. I am sure she will still have times that she does bad assery and kick some supernatural butt. now it will be her avoiding it but every once in a while being forced into kicking butt in defense of loved ones.
I think that would be a very sad ending for her, better she go out in a blaze of glory.
I think that would be a very sad ending for her, better she go out in a blaze of glory.I am pretty sure that a long life with loved ones is what Murphy wants for herself -- and deserves -- and anything else would be a tragic outcome.
I am pretty sure that a long life with loved ones is what Murphy wants for herself -- and deserves -- and anything else would be a tragic outcome.
Very much as Michael -- cane & all -- is now getting his own "happily ever after" with HIS loved ones.
I agree that it looks unlikely to be what Murphy gets...
Don't be so sure, that is one reason why her first marriage failed, Murphy isn't cut out for domestication.
Don't be so sure, that is one reason why her first marriage failed, Murphy isn't cut out for domestication.
According to Murphy, her second husband wanted her to stay at home because he can't handle Murphy having a better career in the police force. From what he did in book 6 by marrying Murphy's sister and Mama Murphy's reaction, what Murphy say has quite some credibility.
From what I see, her 2 previous marriges fail because both of her exs is not strong enough to handle her. Murphy is too compotent, and becoming the spouse of such a woman is never easy for your average man. The same reason why a successful and rich career woman tends to have a hard time finding a husband in real life. The problem is not on the woman, it is on the man. It is easy for a strong man to marry a weak woman, but vice versa?
From what I see, her 2 previous marriges fail because both of her exs is not strong enough to handle her. Murphy is too compotent, and becoming the spouse of such a woman is never easy for your average man. The same reason why a successful and rich career woman tends to have a hard time finding a husband in real life. The problem is not on the woman, it is on the man. It is easy for a strong man to marry a weak woman, but vice versa?
I think Murphy will be the link that along with Maggie Jr. helps Harry keep his humanity despite the darker nature of the WK mantle. Not only that, she is Harry’s best friend & moral support system. For these reasons, I think it will be important for Murphy to continue to have a role in the series.
She starts off becoming the head of the Chicago defense league (combining Harry’s allies with logistical support from the Paranet, Marcone & Lara Raith). This might eventually lead to her creating a more national level defense league in the war that is to come.
Murphy gets a power up that enables her to keep helping Harry as he fights bigger & nastier foes. While there is talk of her becoming a Valkyrie or something, I don’t see it - she is Christian & doesn’t seem to believe in the Norse pantheon. When Harry sees Murphy with his Sight, she has the soul of a warrior angel - perhaps this is foreshadowing that she will eventually get killed & become an angel?
I think Murphy will be the link that along with Maggie Jr. helps Harry keep his humanity despite the darker nature of the WK mantle. Not only that, she is Harry’s best friend & moral support system. For these reasons, I think it will be important for Murphy to continue to have a role in the series.
While Michael is Harry’s best friend, that designation has waned since the whole deal with Lash - instead Harry grew closer to Murphy in the meanwhile. Given his religious beliefs, Michael is also somewhat limited in that capacity - Harry constantly has to watch his cursing around Michael & mentions how uncomfortable Michael was with certain aspects of his relationship with Susan in GP. At some level, Harry wants to impress Michael & be worthy of being his friend because of what a thoroughly good man Michael is - Harry’s relationship with Murphy is on more equal footing.
Isn't there a WOJ that Murphy will never receive a power up?
While Michael is Harry’s best friend, that designation has waned since the whole deal with Lash - instead Harry grew closer to Murphy in the meanwhile. Given his religious beliefs, Michael is also somewhat limited in that capacity - Harry constantly has to watch his cursing around Michael & mentions how uncomfortable Michael was with certain aspects of his relationship with Susan in GP. At some level, Harry wants to impress Michael & be worthy of being his friend because of what a thoroughly good man Michael is - Harry’s relationship with Murphy is on more equal footing.
Why unfortunately?
All of that is true, however since Maggie came on the scene I believe they naturally will get closer again. Michael's place was her home up until now, Harry may turn to both him and Charity for child care advice. Though what happened to Molly may put a crimp in the relationship.Agreed, especially since we know Michael’s feelings about magic & Fae in general.
While Michael & Harry have undoubtedly gotten closer (especially after SG), also remember how uncomfortable Michael is around some of Harry’s magical abilities (granted it is less so in SG than GP).
My larger point here is just that Michael is more of a black/ white person while Harry is shades of gray. Therefore there will always be parts of Harry that Michael will judge (not always a bad thing).
Also, a person can have 2 best friends, especially if he will be sleeping with one of them (probably needs 2 in that case). Also Murphy is on the path to becoming Harry’s girlfriend, so it’s a different kind of friendship.
Murphy has always been portrayed as headstrong & willing to do what she thinks is right - in many ways this is a good quality (like in PG or BR), but it is also a double edged sword (like in FM or CD when turned against Harry). I understand why she does what she does (even if a bit of manipulation is thrown in) - it remains consistent with her character. But agreed that since CD I’ve started finding her more annoying than I ever did before. Not to mention that she was the wrong choice in SG - Thomas would’ve been the best & would likely have picked up that Ascher had taken up a Coin.
We haven't really seen that since Grave Peril, though. By Death Masks, he seems fine with Harry's magic (if I recall correctly, his only objection in that book is to Harry's proposed demon summoning).
What. Michael's entire character is built around his identity as someone who doesn't judge people--he tries to help them. Admittedly, Harry sometimes expects Michael to judge him, but Michael always proves him wrong.
True.
Also true.
... For example book 8. Harry is corrupted by Laschiel's shadow. In Michael's point of view, the best way out for Harry is too surrender that coin immedietly and repent even if by doing so Harry has to sacrifice his magical talent...
I prefer not to place Michael on too high of a pedastal. I mean, he is human too. He has his own biases and opinion.
In other words, Michael is like everyone else. Maybe he is better than most people, but he is not a saint or anything.
Michael does not discriminate Harry because of his magic but it is clear Michael don't like magic very much. For example book 8. Harry is corrupted by Laschiel's shadow. In Michael's point of view, the best way out for Harry is too surrender that coin immedietly and repent even if by doing so Harry has to sacrifice his magical talent. Another time when Michael strong opinion and bias displays itself is in book 10, when Harry suspicious behaviour cause by Mab blocking his fire magic made Michael doubt Harry and cause Michael to assume Harry to be under the control of Laschiel's shadow. Harry has to confront Michael about it in order to clear the air.
Which is why, to me, Murphy's attitude in book 14 or Butters's distrust in book 15 does not bother me very much. In my opinion, such a thing is normal. The stakes are high and everyone who is not afraid is probably an idiot. If you don't grow a bit paranoid in such an environment, you most likely not human in the firstplace, or you'll soon be dead and be disqualified under darwinian law.
While Michael & Harry have undoubtedly gotten closer (especially after SG), also remember how uncomfortable Michael is around some of Harry’s magical abilities (granted it is less so in SG than GP). My larger point here is just that Michael is more of a black/ white person while Harry is shades of gray. Therefore there will always be parts of Harry that Michael will judge (not always a bad thing). Also, a person can have 2 best friends, especially if he will be sleeping with one of them (probably needs 2 in that case). Also Murphy is on the path to becoming Harry’s girlfriend, so it’s a different kind of friendship.
Michael was right.
Or rather, he WOULD have been right, for any other wizard.
As Michael explained too Harry, ALL their (extensive, albeit incomplete) records show that corruption is inevitable, that the ONLY people who escape are those who surrender the coins. Harry points out that the records ARE incomplete, so they cannot REALLY know...
But Michael was right. By Lash's testimony, NOBODY in Lasciel's millennia of experience had EVER resisted temptation even a fraction so long as Harry had. Even Nicodemus -- and Anduriel! -- presumed Harry was still under Lash's sway, having the Fallen-shadow disable Harry... And then turn his (their!) back, confident that Harry would be no threat. That is NOT an error that careful players like Nic & Andy make -- if they had EVER met a mortal who could hold out so long, they'd have kept an eye on Harry in that moment.
Maybe "Starborn" is just shorthand for "Mythic Levels of Stubborn," or maybe Harry is too stupid to quit. But whatever it is, Harry did the impossible, and Michael was right to suspect him, right to suggest he abandon his magic.
And according to this logic, Butters would have been right too. No one could ever resist the corruption of the winter knight mantle after all. It is right for Butters to be suspicious. For that matter, if this logic is used, Murphy is right to suspect Harry and forbid him from handling the Holy swords.
You see. Michael's suspicion in book 8 and book 10. Murphy's action in book 14 and Butters's in book 15, all of them has the same nature. They are face with a previously uncontestable fact. No one could resist the coin corruption unless that person surrenders the coin. No one could stay in corrupted once he or she become a winter knight. No one could come back from the dead. All the records confirm it. Bob is dead certain about it.
It is not their fault Harry keep doing the impossible.
I just wanted to point out that Butter's biggest problem is that his advisor is Bob.
The difference between Michael's suspicion, Murphy's suspicion, and Butters' suspicion is this:
-Michael's suspicion is based on good logic and the facts at his disposal. The actions he takes were such that they reduce the chances both of his suspicions coming to pass and of other harm being done. When he has a way to gain more evidence, he employs it, and when a flaw in his logic is made clear to him, he accepts it and changes his position.
-Murphy's suspicion, to me at least, appears as though it may not even exist. Her actions do not reflect consistency, and do appear manipulative. Given this, her reasoning for being suspicious is undermined by her actions. In fact, her actions make it more likely that her suspicions, if indeed they exist, will come true, and further cause clear harm.
-Butters' suspicion is based on faulty logic. He does not attempt to gain more evidence even when it would be simple for him to do so, and in fact ignores evidence that he does have because it contradicts his conclusions. When someone attempts to speak to him about problems with his beliefs and with actions that may arise from them, he disregards their arguments. His actions are such that they both make it more likely that his suspicions will come to pass and also cause more harm.
From Murphy's PoV., someone who looks like Harry burgle Butters's home to take Bob away. Since no one could possibly return from the dead, any rational person would have assume this person to be an imposter and has malicious intent. Even if this person is truely Harry, if we apply the previous logic that no one who become the winter knight could stay uncorrupted, it is about 99,99% chance that Harry is now turn darkside. He did stole away Bob after all and injured Andy in the process.
I don't know about you, but to me Murphy's reaction during her first meeting with Harry in book 14 is already far too lenient. Far too soft. Under such a dubious circumstance , it is only logical to isolate Harry and do damage control. Making sure that Harry return Bob back and insure that Harry could not touch the Holy swords is a measure of damage control to ensure that in case Harry is indeed an imposter or corrupted, no further damage could be done. In Murphy's place, I wold have done the same, or maybe worse. Especially since this person is someone I really care about which imply that my judgement may be compromise. Take the stance of better safe than sorry is a logical choice. How could it become manipulative?
Same with Butters. What facts does he has? and who does Butters been getting his facts and information from? It is from Bob, and Bob don't have anything good to say about winter in general and Mab especially. Bob knows too much and it works against Butters this time. He don't know about the parasite and when Harry told Butters about in book 15, it is already too late and sounds too much like an excuse. Look at it from Butters's point of view. Harry return in book 14 and after he does winter's business, he isolate himself at the island to do who knows what. He does not communicate, he does not reach out to his previous friends and family. A year later, he comes back to Chicago, again to do winter's business again and on top of that he is working with freaking Nicodemous and the denarians. Expecting Butters to trust Harry under the circumstances is asking a bit too much. In fact, Murphy's trust in Harry during book 15 already show that Murphyis compromise when it comes too Harry. Love has blinded her judgement or she wouldn't extend so much trust. In fact, what Murphy show in book 15 can no longer be consider trust. It is already cross the line into devotion. As she promise at the end of book 14, if Harry is going to hell, she'll follow.
I have two issues with Murphy's behavior in Cold Days. The first is specific: Why did Murphy bring up the Swords at all, much less in the manner that she did? Harry wasn't asking about them; he wasn't trying to get them back; and if he decided to break in and steal them like he did with Bob, he couldn't because he doesn't know where they are. And yet Murphy, out of the blue, demands that Harry acknowledge them as not his responsibility. More than that, she doesn't say, "Oh, just to update you, I've been keeping the Swords safe, and I'm going to continue doing that, okay?" Instead, she is deliberately confrontational, and the result of that is that it first pushes Harry to lose control a little, and then to feel so guilty that not only does he agree to all of Murphy's demands, but he feels even more convinced that he's a monster. Now why would Murphy do that? Either she doesn't know Harry well enough to realize what would happen (even though it seems pretty obvious to me) or she wanted that reaction, which strikes me as manipulative.
The second issue is more general: the way that Murphy keeps wavering between trusting him and not doesn't feel natural to me. First she's absolutely convinced that Harry's back because she hears about explosions (even though in Ghost Story she was very justifiably concerned about imposters) and so convinced that Harry's still himself that she jumps into a fight on his behalf without even asking what's going on. She remains perfectly convinced that Harry's still a good guy up until her manipulation of him discussed in the above paragraph. Then, once she's proven that she can pressure Harry into doing things his way (and once she's undermined his confidence in himself) she's back to trusting him completely...up until she spontaneously decides to tell Harry that he's already become a monster. It just doesn't feel particularly natural to me, and combined with the stuff I talked about in the paragraph above this, it paints a pretty nasty picture of Murphy. And of course, after reading Cold Days and getting this impression of Murphy, it changes how I see things that Murphy's done in other books, further supporting my opinion of her.
Well, part of his problem with Harry is that Harry has come back from the dead, and he thinks that Harry must have come back wrong. Clearly he hasn't bothered to talk to Bob about this, because in Ghost Story Bob worked out what had happened to Harry and could have explained it to him. Another part of his problem with Harry is that Harry wasn't there when Chicago had trouble. Clearly he hasn't tried to get any information about why that is, because if he'd tried to get a message to Harry through Thomas or Murphy (both of whom have visited Harry) he would have known what the issue was. Further, he just plain wasn't using logic here, because even though he knew Harry wasn't in town, he somehow thought Harry would just spontaneously know what problems they were having. Another part of Butters' problem with Harry was that he was supposedly acting more faerie-like because the first thing he said to Butters was about a debt--but this is just plain wrong, because the first thing Harry said to Butters was to ask if Andi was all right. Further, his entire problem with Harry rested on him not being sure of who Harry really was anymore, which he could have fixed by asking Harry to soulgaze him--and that would also have been excellent foreshadowing for Butters becoming a Knight, since Michael is the only other character we know of to insist on a soulgaze with Harry to confirm that he was trustworthy.
For one thing, though Thomas and Murphy visits Harry in the island, it is clear they don't do it often. My impression both Thomas and Murphy only visits one time each. Though my impression can be wrong, it would not be a mistake to say that neither Murphy or Thomas know much about Harry during that year especially after Mab sabotage Harry's communication. Like what Mab say at the start of book 15, a bit of a push here and there and suspicion could easily breads. In other words, even if Butters did ask Murphy or Thomas about Harry, I doubt any of them could say or do anything to convince him. In Butters place, I wouldn't be convince either.
As for Bob knowing about Harry returning with his entire soul in book 13, well, Harry can be ressurected if his body is found. But the fact of the matter is his body was never found. They dont even know if Harry's body is still intact. To make matters worse, Harry is missing after the battle with corpsetaker. The logical conclusion is Harry's ghost is destroyed during battle. Since Harry come back with his entire soul, it is only reasonable to conclude that Harry is obliderated , spirit and soul. He is deader than dead. He won't have an afterlife let alone come back from the dead.
It is not that Butters wanted Harry know all of their problems even when Harry is at Demonreach, but in Butters point of view, Harry should have innitiated contact himself. Harry is the one who should reach out. As readers, we know Harry can't do that because the parasite in his head, but Butters don't know and suspicion has more than a year to breeds inside Butters's mind fueled by Bob. When book 15 comes along, any explanation is already useless because suspicion already sets too deep. Any explanation sounds like an excuse at that point.
And don't talk about soulgaze. Harry has mentioned again and again that soulgazes are dangerous. The last time Butters soulgaze a wizard, it is freaking Grevane. We can be sure it is far from pleasant. If Harry is truely corrupt, soulgazing Harry may turn out as bad as soulgazing Grevane. Not even Harry dares to soulgaze just anyone. When Nicodemous offers a soulgaze to confirm his sincerity in book 10, Harry flinch away ASAP. In other words, it is catch 22. Without confirming that Harry is still the old Harry, soulgazing Harry is dangerous. But if Harry is already confirm to be good, there is no need to soulgaze anymore.
Murphy swingging from trusting Harry to not trusting Harry to back to trusting Harry again however, that is explanable in my opinion. She herself is probably torn. Like I said, after Harry's assume death at the end of book 12, what Murphy suffers is regret and uncertainty. So her state of mind in book 14 most likely is not stable. Which explain why her actions is rather contrary during book 14. If she trust Harry without confirmation, it will be reckless and irresponsible. It could endanger everyone and probably cause a disaster. If she choose not t trust, what if Harry is really Harry? How would Harry feels? She don't want to hurt him. Without having a confirmation, it is really wrong whichever she choose. Now you see why Murphy waver back and forth like that in book 14.
You know, at the end of book 14, I think it is reasonable to assume that Butters just expect Harry to return to Chicago after a few days at the island, so he did not ask. I mean, who could think up a psychic parasite that could blow up Harry's head? Besides, even Harry thinks that Molly would have taken the parasite out soon enough. Not even Harry expect to be isolated at the island for the entire year. If this kind of thinking is also the same with Murphy and Thomas, it is also reasonable for Murphy and Thomas not to say anything. Molly is going to cure Harry soon anyway, why say so much?
But Mab keep Molly away, probably on purpose. Days drag into weeks and weeks to months. One mistake leads to another and Butters misunderstanding grow bigger and bigger. Butters forgot to ask while Murphy and Thomas forgot to tell. After a few months, explaining would not work anymore.
On Murphy's side. Her wavering is her dying struggle. It is only her instinctive self defense mechanism at work, which is why it is as harsh as it is transcient. CD is only about 24 hours and Murphy already fully trusted Harry again by the end of it. She wanted Harry back so much, I suspect even if Harry is an imposter or being controlled by Mab, she'll be the first to be fooled, well, as long as Harry don't show any obvious flaw. Which is probably why she need to act harsh at the start, she would not have the heart to be harsh otherwise.
Thomas's first reaction upon meeting Harry is also not very welcoming anyway. Compare to Thomas's first greeting in the water beetle, Murphy harsh opening seems normal. At least Murphy don't suspect Harry as some kind of a shapeshifter.
For me the huge unanswered question is did Murphy or Thomas ask Harry why he won't leave the island? We know they visited him, why wasn't there a come to Jesus moment when they confronted him with a "look people are dying left and right we need you!" If there was, did Harry answer them
truthfully? He could have answered one of three ways, 1] "this is the only place where the pain in my head won't kill me." 2] "Mab will kill me if I leave, she has me watched..." 3] " The defenses of the island are in a neglected state, if I leave now, worse than the Fomen will escape.." The one thing I doubt he'd say would be he didn't give a crap about what was happening back in Chicago...
My other question is why neither never defended his reasons for not being there to Butters? Butters is a just and intelligent man, if he knew the above reasons he may get frustrated because he felt they were powerless, but he wouldn't have blamed Harry like he did.
We all know Murphy by now and it is unlikely that if she felt Harry was really needed she wouldn't have pinned him to the wall until she got an answer as to why he wasn't coming to their aid... So
here is an explanation most will not like... She may feel that they ran things pretty well when they thought Harry was dead.. May even have liked the power that brought, the importance, after no longer being a police officer, she didn't want to play second fiddle to Harry... Or for all her talk of trust, still a part of her never fully trusted Harry after he became Knight. Otherwise I cannot account for the attitude of Butters towards Harry.. There is a missing part to this puzzle...
I'm reasonably sure Harry told Thomas, at least, about the parasite at the end of Cold Days, but I don't have my book right now so I can't check. And I had certainly been under the impression that Murphy knew about the parasite.Thomas knew. Don't know about Murphy.
Harry wouldn't tell his left hand what his right hand was doing unless he just had to. The has been an ongoing theme. If your not doing something because you have a problem, and people could use that information, you don't broadcast it. Better to leave them guessing. Butter's isn't owed anything.
Butter's suffers from pedestal disease. He put Harry up on one and Harry isn't living up to Butter's expectations.
But, by the time of Skin Game Harry can't explain to Butters the reasons for the things that are happening. Anduriel is listening.
Harry wouldn't tell his left hand what his right hand was doing unless he just had to. The has been an ongoing theme. If your not doing something because you have a problem, and people could use that information, you don't broadcast it. Better to leave them guessing. Butter's isn't owed anything.
Butter's suffers from pedestal disease. He put Harry up on one and Harry isn't living up to Butter's expectations. But, by the time of Skin Game Harry can't explain to Butters the reasons for the things that are happening. Anduriel is listening.Thomas knew. Don't know about Murphy.
But I doubt that Butters would have kept silent! That is the point, especially with young kids being
kidnapped left right and center... At the very least he would have bitched to Murphy about it.
It is out of character for Butters to act as he did, not asking questions first as to why, just being angry.
I think Bob may have had something to do with it... He has a real hate/fear thing going on with Mab, so would suspect the worst for Harry and put some ideas into Butters' head...
But I doubt that Butters would have kept silent! That is the point, especially with young kids beingPutting it in the context of Skin Games. Anduriel is precisely the point. Butters confronts Harry and Harry tells him that he can't tell him.
kidnapped left right and center... At the very least he would have bitched to Murphy about it. I don't think Butters had Harry on a pedestal so much as he had always been understanding.. It is out of character for Butters to act as he did, not asking questions first as to why, just being angry. I think Bob may have had something to do with it... He has a real hate/fear thing going on with Mab, so would suspect the worst for Harry and put some ideas into Butters' head... I doubt that fear that Andriel was listening was a factor, because the problem wasn't with the Fallen, it was with the Foman .. The degree of the anger Butters displays isn't rational unless he is being fed the wrong information as to why Harry is gone, this could have come from Bob... I doubt he would have kept his mouth shut about it, I just wonder why neither Murphy nor Thomas set him straight.
"So you tell me, Harry. Should I be anxious about Superman hanging out with Luthor? When I find out more about what you're dragging Karrin into, is it going to make me less worried? Because I'm not sure I know you anymore."So Butter's doesn't keep silent. And Harry stonewalls him. There is about two pages of dialog that covers most of the points raised here prior to the part I quote.
It was maybe fifteen seconds before I could answer.
"It isn't going to make you any less worried," I said quietly. "And I still can't talk to you about it."
Putting it in the context of Skin Games. Anduriel is precisely the point. Butters confronts Harry and Harry tells him that he can't tell him.
Bob is FUD on the hoof.
Putting it in the context of Skin Games. Anduriel is precisely the point. Butters confronts Harry and Harry tells him that he can't tell him.
So Butter's doesn't keep silent. And Harry stonewalls him. There is about two pages of dialog that covers most of the points raised here prior to the part I quote.You are missing the whole point... If things had been explained to Butters a couple of months or so before the big chase in Skin Game, the chase wouldn't have happened in the first place because if Butters knew there was a good reason for Harry to be away, even if he couldn't tell him at that point in Skin Game what it was, no chase, no FUD moment, end of story....
Bob is FUD on the hoof. Jim uses him both as a talking head and as an all around confuser
I think what's being said here (and certainly what I'm saying) is that Butters should/would have said something before Skin Game.Exactly, his anger and fear has been building up way before the chase in Skin Game... Murphy and Thomas both know there is a good reason for Harry to be staying on the island.. If Murphy was playing leader of their defense group, no reason to think she wasn't, she was in Ghost Story, as a good leader she should have been able to read Butters... Then she should have took him to one side and even if she couldn't tell him exactly why Harry was away, say that there was a very good reason that will be explained later... Or who knows Butters may even have come to her... Something is missing in this picture, understood Butters is very upset about those kids, however he has always been the most sensible of men, thus he may not like Harry not being there, but at the same time understand it isn't really Harry's choice...
You are missing the whole point... If things had been explained to Butters a couple of months or so before the big chase in Skin Game, the chase wouldn't have happened in the first place because if Butters knew there was a good reason for Harry to be away, even if he couldn't tell him at that point in Skin Game what it was, no chase, no FUD moment, end of story....On my reread of chapter one, in no particular order, Mab has used the Lake ice to keep people out. She's blocked access to Molly, she manipulated Harry's messages to his friends to Molly to sow distrust. She has effectively kept him from hooking up to his allies as time dragged by. Harry never meant to be there for all that time. Thank Mab. Murphy may or may not have known of the parasite. Bob conveniently didn't know. Thomas is Thomas. As to why Murphy didn't council him, maybe she did and it wasn't sufficient. Jim telegraphs this at the beginning. Harry is worrying about trust and who he should trust.
FUD=fear, uncertainty, and doom.On my reread of chapter one, in no particular order, Mab has used the Lake ice to keep people out. She's blocked access to Molly, she manipulated Harry's messages to his friends to Molly to sow distrust. She has effectively kept him from hooking up to his allies as time dragged by. Harry never meant to be there for all that time. Thank Mab. Murphy may or may not have known of the parasite. Bob conveniently didn't know. Thomas is Thomas. As to why Murphy didn't council him, maybe she did and it wasn't sufficient. Jim telegraphs this at the beginning. Harry is worrying about trust and who he should trust.
Why did Butters need to know? It isn't a problem that he can solve, and the more people who know the greater the likelihood that the information might leak and thus move Harry from the, unknown status, column to the, not a threat currently, column. The rest is about the book as a writer, so I've spoilered it.
"You heard that, huh?" I asked.This just after Butters expresses his doubts. Does this read like Murphy knows more than Butters? Or is framed to show that Murphy is working off of her understanding of Harry and not any knowledge?
"Yeah," she said. "I did."
She crossed to the refrigerator, opened it, and took out a jug of orange juice.
She got a plastic drinking glass out of the cupboard and poured it full.
Then she passed the juice to me.
I grimaced and drank some.
"You agree with him?"
"I understand him," she said.
"But do you agree?"
"I trust you," she said.
I've said this is about trust. I'll let the book speak.This just after Butters expresses his doubts. Does this read like Murphy knows more than Butters? Or is framed to show that Murphy is working off of her understanding of Harry and not any knowledge?
She did visit him on the island.... That gives her more knowledge... I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't have said anything to him about the fight against the Fomen.. If she trusts him, she'd know he had a good reason for not leaving the island, thus not let Butters escalate into the state of mistrust and fear he arrived at...I pretty much live and die by the text. It seems pretty clear.
On my reread of chapter one, in no particular order, Mab has used the Lake ice to keep people out. She's blocked access to Molly, she manipulated Harry's messages to his friends to Molly to sow distrust. She has effectively kept him from hooking up to his allies as time dragged by. Harry never meant to be there for all that time. Thank Mab.
Why did Butters need to know?
Butters steps over a line. Rather than walking away or creating distance until he could find clarity he turns into a snoop. As a character I don't like Butters. Anyone who did what he did in my personal space would find himself an outsider.
I feel like Butters motivation and reasoning needed to be set up better. The thematic elements of trust and faith make sense. Everything after Butters' choice not to trust Harry makes sense. It's his choice not to trust Harry that doesn't make sense to me. Especially sense he went with "trust but verify" in Ghost Story and seemed to trust him just fine in Cold Days. He had access to all the information needed to be fine with Harry coming back via Bob. Also, everyone knows Dresden well enough to understand why he stole Bob instead of borrowing him. Their reactions are mostly exasperation. Harry comes back from the dead and acts exactly like everyone expects him to act.
If I recall correctly, Butters' only real concern about Harry in Cold Days is that the mantle might be a trick that isn't really helping Harry. (Unless the mantle has been retconned after Cold Days, Butters is almost certainly wrong). It seems to me that something happened off page that changed Butters' course. I don't think that sort of character change should happen off page without an on page explanation. That explanation may still be coming. For those not aware, there have been theories here that Andi was seriously injured either in Cold Days or after, and for some reason, Jim has only hinted at it. That could be the reason for Butters' change in character and will be revealed later.
Does this read like Murphy knows more than Butters? Or is framed to show that Murphy is working off of her understanding of Harry and not any knowledge?
She did visit him on the island.... That gives her more knowledge... I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't have said anything to him about the fight against the Fomen.. If she trusts him, she'd know he had a good reason for not leaving the island, thus not let Butters escalate into the state of mistrust and fear he arrived at...
On another point, Harry doesn't tell Karrin about the parasite in Cold Days or Skin Game. Between the two of them, Karrin is the first to bring it up. This leads me to believe that Karrin already knew about it because Harry told either Thomas or Murphy once he couldn't leave the island.
I think the first chapter covers all the bases as well as it could without turning the intro into a book of it's own. He's afraid. And he acts the fool. He mentions Will and Georgia being hurt. But I think it is the realization of just how powerless he is. Which is all in the text.
I think it is mistaken to compare book 15 Butters to his previous self. If we are saying that Butters is acting out of character, well perhaps Butters is indeed out of character. The cowardly nerd that is book 7 Butters would not be playing "Batman" as book 15 Butters did.
Information is power and it is dangerous. It is always Harry's standard MO to minimize the spread of information unless he has a very good reason to share. On his usual mode, Butters is unlikely to get involve in anything dangerous. Situations in which nescesitates Harry to share with Butters information like the existence of the parasite in his head simply does not exist before the event of skin game actually take place. Information like Harry has a psychic parasite in his head is not something you chat about with your friends during dinner time. It is something you dish out only when you find the need for it. Before book 15 actually happened, who would suspect the previously nerdy Butters to dare snoop around near the likes of Nicodemous?
Even if Harry is told that Butters is currently playing "Batman" recently, I doubt the idea of Butters actually spying on him will cross Harry's mind. It wouldn't cross Murphy's or Thomas's mind either. The guy is suppose to be backline support.
The danger of talking too much is demonstrated in book 15. Anduriel could see or hear things via shadows. If Anduriel can do this, other powers may have similar or even better spying capabilities. And Though Nicodemous's heist started in book 16, assuming that he did not scout around and begin spying and gathering information long before that is rather naïve. If Thomas told Butters about the parasite when Anduriel happened to be spying during Nicodemous's preparation phase, Hary's condition could possibly be revealed. It would not be difficult to deduce that the earing Harry is uncharacteristically wearing is his current weakness.
The above hypothetical example just show that even though the current condition seem calm and peaceful, it does not mean you can just open your mouth and say or ask anything. you don't know who could be watchingor listening. This would explain why Murphy and Thomas could not just told Butters about sensitive information, not even if Butters is complaining. Unless there is an urgent and specific need, it simply much safer to keep everything on a need to know basis. This kind of secretive conduct has become some kind of second instinct for anything and everyone who is verse in the supernatural world. Thomas and Murphy included. People don't just give away information or answer questions even if asked by a friend or ally. Getting information in the Dresdenverse is not that easy.
To prevent him doing something stupid, which in fact he did. Even if other characters decided that he didn't need to know, Butters still should have said something to the effect that he had asked people what was going on, and no one had given him any answers.You do realize that the only person that can keep Butters from doing stupid things is the Butters. No other person can or should exercise that kind of control over someone else.
You do realize that the only person that can keep Butters from doing stupid things is the Butters. No other person can or should exercise that kind of control over someone else.
If Harry had crossed over to the darkside, why would anything he said make any difference? A lie would be the order of the day. And if he thinks Murphy is being hoodwinked, she is unreliable as well. Can anybody provide any clarity on this?
While I don’t like SG Butters at all, I understand the overall point JB is trying to make with his character arc in the novel.
The way to look at SG Butters is to contrast him with his foil in the novel - Michael. By the time of SG, Michael is in more or less the same/ worse shape than Butters on paper - he is also powerless (has given up the Sword & is crippled from his SmF injuries) & likely has some inkling of what the Fomor are upto in Chicago. The difference between Michael & Butters is that Michael has faith - in both TWG & Harry.
I think that Butters’ arc in SG is supposed to say more about how TWG works in the DV than Butters’ lack of faith (since it is glossed over & not really referred to after the event, despite it leading to Murphy getting crippled & losing the Sword/ perhaps more). Butters at the point of TWG is fighting the good fight, but he is aware that he is losing - the Fomor, Lara & Marcone are all growing in power while the BFS isn’t faring so well. Naturally a sensitive, bookish introvert, the violence & loss have hardened him & made him much more cynical in his worldview. That he is viewed as a low-level information gatherer & not a warrior, he is likely left out of the loop by Molly, Murphy & Thomas on all important things (like stuff concerning Harry). As a result, Butters has lost faith in both TWG & Harry. The point of his being made a KotC is to restore that faith.
JB has noted in the series that a defining characteristic of a hero is being willing to risk your life against overwhelming evil because you believe it is right. In SG, Butters is doing that (albeit avoidably) when he gets caught.
One can argue that given what Butters believes (that Harry is living out a Pet Cemetary scenario - our issue in this thread is whether Butters should think this way) what he does is rather brave.
It is said that the difference between a brave act & a stupid one is results - this one didn’t pan out for Butters since Nic & his cabal are a much more formidable bunch than the Fomor yahoos running around Chicago post-Changes.
I get that Jim is trying to make a point--I just wish he'd done it differently. I've provided a scenario that would allow Butters to be both smart and suspicious, and I'm certain that other people could come up with more--but the way it's done just makes Butters look stupid and out of character.
..So now Butters' reasoning is "Harry's gone completely dark side, and not only that, he's tricked Thomas the vampire who grew up dealing with deception and manipulation, and not only that, he's tricked Murphy the incipient wielder of Fidellachius (bearing in mind that Knights are really hard to trick) who's known him for something like two decades at this point...oh, and he must also have tricked Bob too, even though Bob's personality is literally shaped by his wielder, so it seems impossible that Bob could not understand said wielder...so I'm just going to ignore anything anyone says about Harry, in fact, I'm not going to even ask--I'm not ignoring evidence, just trickery..." It seems implausible and out of character. Furthermore, if he was going to assume that Harry was this kind of master of deception, why would he ask Harry for an explanation in Skin Game, and why wouldn't he question this "master of deception" thing when Harry flat out said that he was involved in something shady rather than coming up with a convincing lie?
Your asking the unanswerable. The text is what it is. You can ask why all the characters act as they do, but the only answer is what the text gives you.
I dislike this story line but I'm fairly sure that Jim doesn't care.
Your asking the unanswerable. The text is what it is. You can ask why all the characters act as they do, but the only answer is what the text gives you. This is meant to reveal a crisis of faith. Butcher harps on faith throughout the books. And faith isn't about facts. This is about how you deal with things when fear and uncertainty become the over riding emotions. The whole point of the chase sequence is to give Butters the reassurance that Jim has decided he needs. Butters screws the pooch and his friends forgive him and Harry regains his Superman cred and Butters faith is restored. Thus setting up the final act. I dislike this story line but I'm fairly sure that Jim doesn't care.
Oh Jim cares, he wants us to continue to buy his books.... ::)Only in aggregate. Books can't be written by a committee. Which is the way it should be.
Only in aggregate. Books can't be written by a committee. Which is the way it should be.
However the motivations for the characters have to be apparent, otherwise it's random noise with no meaning. Chapter one lays out the themes. If Butters has doubts about Harry, Harry himself also harbors doubts. They haven't been communicating. Mab is standing in the center preventing Harry from keeping his lines of communications open, to manipulate him. So Skin Game in one sense is about the characters reconnecting and reestablishing those bonds of trust and faith in each other after a period when those ties have weakened. And Jim Ratchets up the pressure by giving Anduriel the ability to listen from Shadows. Butters is a pale refection of Anduriel, wanting to know Harry's intentions, for much the same reasons. And it also signals Harry reconnecting to the larger world, the White Council and the Wardens. So this is how I interpret what I read.
First, at least half my point was that Butters should have been asking the kind of questions that would prevent him from doing something stupid. Second, while it is obviously not anyone else's responsibility to keep Butters from doing stupid things, my point here is that giving him information very likely would have prevented him from doing something stupid, and that that is, in fact, a good reason to give him said information.
..So now Butters' reasoning is "Harry's gone completely dark side, and not only that, he's tricked Thomas the vampire who grew up dealing with deception and manipulation, and not only that, he's tricked Murphy the incipient wielder of Fidellachius (bearing in mind that Knights are really hard to trick) who's known him for something like two decades at this point...oh, and he must also have tricked Bob too, even though Bob's personality is literally shaped by his wielder, so it seems impossible that Bob could not understand said wielder...so I'm just going to ignore anything anyone says about Harry, in fact, I'm not going to even ask--I'm not ignoring evidence, just trickery..." It seems implausible and out of character. Furthermore, if he was going to assume that Harry was this kind of master of deception, why would he ask Harry for an explanation in Skin Game, and why wouldn't he question this "master of deception" thing when Harry flat out said that he was involved in something shady rather than coming up with a convincing lie?
I get that Jim is trying to make a point--I just wish he'd done it differently. I've provided a scenario that would allow Butters to be both smart and suspicious, and I'm certain that other people could come up with more--but the way it's done just makes Butters look stupid and out of character.
Butters' plot/character arc in Skin Game makes perfect sense. Faith, redemption, trust, etc. Y'all said it well, so I'm not going to repeat it and say it worse.
My problem is that Butters' character arc from Ghost Story through Skin Game doesn't. If Butters had been the one all doubtful in Ghost Story and Cold Days, it would make perfect sense, but that was what Murphy was doing in those books. I don't think Butters' motivations are apparent. I think we have to back into them too much given what Butters said and did in the previous two installments. Butters just doesn't seem the suspicious doubting type to me. The Butters/Murphy role reversal is probably in my top five problems with the entire series.
The others are, in order that they come to mind:Spoilered because 1. who cares? and 2. they all have been their own threads (except maybe 1).(click to show/hide)
I mean, Butters is knowledgeable in theory. He has the making of a good scientist. But the kind of skill to know when or how or what questions to ask under pressure and under a very limited amount of time, and to react with limited, incomplete and uncertain information, that is not a skill set of a scientist. That is a skill set of James Bond.
It make sense if you think about Bob. When Harry died in book 12 up untill his return in CD, I am certain Bob has all good things to say about Harry. Up to that point Butters probably been listening about Harry's goody goody side. This should explain why Butters is acting positively to Harry in book 14. In fact, Butters's expectation might been raise a bit too high.
At the end of CD, presumably Butters gets Bob back. If we pay attention to how Bob acted when facing the newly return, winter knight Harryin book 14, it is clear that Bob is certain that Harry has gone darkside or least soon to be anyway. In fact, I rather get the impression that Bob is afraid of Harry. In the year between book 14 up to start of book 15, what Bob been feeding Butters about Harry probably isn't anything good, which would explain Butters's attitude during book 15.
And what is wrong with Murphy's reaction in FM?
It make sense if you think about Bob. When Harry died in book 12 up untill his return in CD, I am certain Bob has all good things to say about Harry. Up to that point Butters probably been listening about Harry's goody goody side. This should explain why Butters is acting positively to Harry in book 14. In fact, Butters's expectation might been raise a bit too high.
At the end of CD, presumably Butters gets Bob back. If we pay attention to how Bob acted when facing the newly return, winter knight Harryin book 14, it is clear that Bob is certain that Harry has gone darkside or least soon to be anyway. In fact, I rather get the impression that Bob is afraid of Harry. In the year between book 14 up to start of book 15, what Bob been feeding Butters about Harry probably isn't anything good, which would explain Butters's attitude during book 15.It is more I think that Bob is afraid of Mab... Harry is now Mab's Knight so it is logical since last we heard, Bob still hasn't atoned for whatever he did to offend Mab. So it is logical that he'd be afraid that Harry was out to get him because Mab ordered it. So it is logical that Bob might be feeding his fears to Butters.. Butters because of his frustration and ignorance as to why Harry isn't around when they really need him would eventually become a believer and they'd feed off of each other.. Let us not forget that Bob has been wrong at times, but Butters lacks the knowledge and training to see it.
Yeah, but he had over a year to ask questions. That's hardly a limited time frame.
Maybe. My problem with this reasoning is that Butters and Bob seem to have fundamentally different worries regarding Harry: Bob is worried about the Winter Knight mantle, whereas Butters is worried about Harry coming back from the dead.
She punches Harry in the face and refuses to let him say anything. Up until this point, we have been asked to understand Murphy's negative behavior towards Dresden as being the result of her being a good cop, and Dresden doing things that a good cop would object to. Punching suspects, however, is not being a good cop--it is police brutality. And not letting Dresden say anything is just being a stupid cop--he might have been confessing, considering how upset he was. And understanding Murphy's treatment of Dresden as not actually being a result of her being a good cop and caring about the law makes her, in my opinion, a character that's much harder to empathize with and not dislike.
Something went 'click' in my head. Someone threw some kind of switch that just turned off my emotions entirely and immersed me in a surreal haze. I couldn't be seeing this. It simply couldn't be real. It had to be some sort of game or hoax, in which the actors would start giggling in a few moments, unable to contain the mirth of their prank.
I waited. But no one started giggling. I wiped at my forehead with my hand and found cold sweat there. My fingers began to shake.
Murphy said, her voice still tight with anger, "Apparently, the incense set off the fire alarm in the hall. When the fire department got here, no one answered, so they came on in. They found her up here, around eight o'clock. She was still warm."
Eight o'clock. When I had been talking to the demon. Moonrise?
Behind me, Murphy closed the door to the bedroom. I turned to her, away from the grisly corpse. There was anger in every inch of her, in the way she glared at me.
"Murph," I said. "I don't know if I can do this."
MacFinn had killed her. Kim was dead because I had refused to share my knowledge with her, because I hadn't given her my help. I had been so secure in my knowledge and wisdom; withholding such secrets from her had been the action of a concerned and reasoned adult speaking to an overeager child. I couldn't believe my own arrogance, the utter confidence with which I had condemned her to death.
I started to shake, harder, too many things pressing against my head, my heart. I could feel the pressure, somewhere inside of me, that switch on the inside of my head quivering, getting ready to flick back beneath a tide of raging anger, fury, regret, self-hatred. I took deep breaths and closed my eyes, trying not to let it happen.
I opened my eyes and looked up at Murphy. God, I needed to talk to her. I needed a friend. I needed someone to listen, to tell me it would be all right whether it was the truth or not. I needed someone to let me unload on them, to keep me from flying apart.
Actually, The time frame is far more limited than what appears on the surface. Butters need to ask the question and gotten a satisfactory answer within a limited time after end of book 14. The more time lapse the more suspicion has time to sets in. If suspicion sets into deep, even the right explanation won't work anymore. Since the book don't show us, I don't really know how long Butters could stay positive about Harry after end of SG. Would Butters accept the explanation if he get the information 3 months after end of CD? or ist it 6 months? or 1 month is already too long.
And I don't think Butters is hankering about Harry coming back from the dead. He is more worried about Harry is not Harry anymore. He accuse Harry of becoming more and more like the fae for example. Bob is dead certain that it will only be a matter of time for Harry to turn into Lloyd Slate version 2.0, so if Butters has been listening to Bob all this time. Well the result is evident.
As for FM Murphy. It should be remembered that at the end of SF, there are rumors running around that Harry has become Marcone's henchman and the fall of Victor Sells and the three eye drug, is Harry acting on Marcone orders.
At the start of book 2, Harry has been losing income since SI has not been calling him for a job lately. When Murphy appear to ask Harry for help, she explain that the above rumor has cause some pressure in the police force. If not for Murphy standing up for Harry, it is likely that Harry is already captured by the police.
Before the event in Mcfinn house, in which that girl, I forgot her name, is found dead. Marcone visits Harry. It makes it look a lot like Harry is taking Marcone's orders.
This and that circle diagram Murphy found in Mac's bar.
You can see that Murphy has been getting wave after wave of circumstancial evidence that suggest Harry is the bad guy. It is not in FM only, the trust between Harry and Murphy has been put to the test since end of SF. Considering that the level of trust between the 2 is still relatively new and not as strong as say in book 6 or book 10, for Murphy to give Harry that much leeway is already good enough. When that trust is seemingly betrayed, Murphy obviously blew up.
Of course, she is proven wrong in the end, and she apologize for it.
Of course, she is proven wrong in the end, and she apologize for it. But the fact that she punch Harry is quite understandable at the time. Well, perhaps she should not go so far as doing physical violence, but I think her anger and disappointment is understandable.
Not an excuse. It's an excuse for everything up until that point, but not for her punching Harry and refusing to hear a word he says. I'm not expecting her to like Harry, or trust Harry, or not arrest Harry, but I do expect her to be able to do her job, especially since her job has been, like I said, the reason I've been giving her a pass on all the other stuff she's done regarding not trusting Harry.
In this scene, she's acting worse than book 1 Morgan. She's doing the whole "Harry has some tenuous connection to what's happened, so he must be to blame--and I don't care about any other evidence!" thing that Morgan did in Storm Front, only Morgan never descended to the level of physically assaulting Harry.
Why? Why would Butters only listen to information that he gets when he's not suspicious? This just makes no sense to me.It's about doubt. Once it's in play, it colors everything. What Butters is afraid of is something he can't see. There is no test he can run. No way for him to know for sure. Murphy is in the same boat. Murphy makes her choice based on trust, not facts. She can't know any better then Butters. Butters can't take that leap of faith.
It's about doubt. Once it's in play, it colors everything. What Butters is afraid of is something he can't see. There is no test he can run. No way for him to know for sure. Murphy is in the same boat. Murphy makes her choice based on trust, not facts. She can't know any better then Butters. Butters can't take that leap of faith.
Murphy didn't just violate the tenets of good policing; she feloniously violated the Constitution.
Here is Murphy's evidence that Dresden was involved in the murders:
1. He knew a member of a tight knit community he was a prominent, maybe the most prominent, member of.
2. The victim was angry with him, maybe about the circle.
3. The circle was in the home.
4. Harry said to hold off on an APB until Murphy was ready to go to war with Tera.
5. There was a photo of Tera in the home.
Reason number one is the reason she hires him in the first place.
Reason number three is that there was an occult symbol associated with one of the murders and Harry, an expert in the occult. That's like a Christian symbol being associated with a theologian and a murder in a monastery.
Reason number four was just a warning to act with caution.
Murphy has reason to be suspicious of Dresden and even to take him in for questioning. Maybe enough to charge him with something. As long as he doesn't get a bad lawyer, she doesn't have nearly enough to convict him. Since she doesn't have enough to convict him, she should let him talk. That's how she gets more evidence; even if he just lies to her. A bunch of lies that can be proven false would help in a prosecution.
Twice in this book, Murphy gets enough evidence to satisfy her that someone, who isn't guilty, is guilty of a crime, so the investigation should stop. While police actually do this all the time, it's terrible police work.
As Mira points out, Murphy does this because she is guilty of the sin of pride. She substitutes her judgment for standard police practices and the Constitution. (In Skin Game she substitutes her judgment for that of the WG, which is the first sin recorded in the Bible).
And this is why I believe Murphy is in S.I. to begin with. I don't think she made enemies just by being a woman competent in a "man's" field. I think she made enemies by indulging in her pride and anger. Murphy probably felt entitled to a promotion and reacted with anger when she didn't get it. Then the opening in S.I. happened, so her superiors gave her the promotion. And much like Butters' behavior in Skin Game, I think this should be better explained in the text, or it doesn't really make sense without a lot of back filling of motivation/character by the audience.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what Morris is saying is that it makes thematic sense for Butters to behave this way. I agree with that. Where I disagree is that it doesn't make sense for his character to be behaving this way at this point in the series without more.
Butters has access to more information than any other character, except maybe Michael, to trust that Harry didn't come back wrong because Bob was the one who first figured out what happened to Harry in Ghost Story. I.e. that Harry wasn't even dead, and that Uriel, Archangel of the Lord, is behind it. That should be enough to convince Butters that Harry didn't come back "wrong."
Yeah, but...I'm not expecting Butters to take any leaps of faith. I'm expecting him to make a reasonable effort to gather evidence.What evidence?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what Morris is saying is that it makes thematic sense for Butters to behave this way.No. What I'm saying is that magic isn't science. There are no breadcrumbs to examine, no forensics. They can't soul gaze Harry, or call up Mab to ask her. They don't have Uriel on speed dial. There is no tangible fact that they can examine. This is the nature of the problem. The question is, is the Harry standing in front of them the same Harry they allied themselves with? Everyone keeps saying that they should explain it to Butters, what I'm asking is, how?
What evidence?
No. What I'm saying is that magic isn't science. There are no breadcrumbs to examine, no forensics. They can't soul gaze Harry, or call up Mab to ask her. They don't have Uriel on speed dial. There is no tangible fact that they can examine. This is the nature of the problem. The question is, is the Harry standing in front of them the same Harry they allied themselves with? Everyone keeps saying that they should explain it to Butters, what I'm asking is, how?
No. What I'm saying is that magic isn't science. There are no breadcrumbs to examine, no forensics. They can't soul gaze Harry, or call up Mab to ask her. They don't have Uriel on speed dial. There is no tangible fact that they can examine. This is the nature of the problem. The question is, is the Harry standing in front of them the same Harry they allied themselves with? Everyone keeps saying that they should explain it to Butters, what I'm asking is, how?
For that matter, why couldn't Murphy have said, "Well, he agreed to give back Bob and let me keep the Swords, and a bad guy never would have done that"? That was supposed to be this big trust thing, wasn't it?
Harry also could have just asked to borrow Bob instead of kidnap him.. It might even have helped to have brought Butters along, if that was allowed.
Only wizards can soul gaze.
Harry specifically told Andi that he was stealing Bob rather than asking to borrow him in an attempt to keep Butters safe.
As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions... Harry has good intentions when he tries to keep his friends safe because he knowsstuff they don't but almost always it backfires on him.
Murphy didn't just violate the tenets of good policing; she feloniously violated the Constitution.
Here is Murphy's evidence that Dresden was involved in the murders:
1. He knew a member of a tight knit community he was a prominent, maybe the most prominent, member of.
2. The victim was angry with him, maybe about the circle.
3. The circle was in the home.
4. Harry said to hold off on an APB until Murphy was ready to go to war with Tera.
5. There was a photo of Tera in the home.
Reason number one is the reason she hires him in the first place.
Reason number three is that there was an occult symbol associated with one of the murders and Harry, an expert in the occult. That's like a Christian symbol being associated with a theologian and a murder in a monastery.
Reason number four was just a warning to act with caution.
Murphy has reason to be suspicious of Dresden and even to take him in for questioning. Maybe enough to charge him with something. As long as he doesn't get a bad lawyer, she doesn't have nearly enough to convict him. Since she doesn't have enough to convict him, she should let him talk. That's how she gets more evidence; even if he just lies to her. A bunch of lies that can be proven false would help in a prosecution.
Twice in this book, Murphy gets enough evidence to satisfy her that someone, who isn't guilty, is guilty of a crime, so the investigation should stop. While police actually do this all the time, it's terrible police work.
As Mira points out, Murphy does this because she is guilty of the sin of pride. She substitutes her judgment for standard police practices and the Constitution. (In Skin Game she substitutes her judgment for that of the WG, which is the first sin recorded in the Bible).
And this is why I believe Murphy is in S.I. to begin with. I don't think she made enemies just by being a woman competent in a "man's" field. I think she made enemies by indulging in her pride and anger. Murphy probably felt entitled to a promotion and reacted with anger when she didn't get it. Then the opening in S.I. happened, so her superiors gave her the promotion. And much like Butters' behavior in Skin Game, I think this should be better explained in the text, or it doesn't really make sense without a lot of back filling of motivation/character by the audience.
I think we can come up with explanations for why both of them are behaving the way they are, but I think we have to stretch the texts to do it. I think that is bad writing (unless it was done on purpose with an explanation meant to come later).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what Morris is saying is that it makes thematic sense for Butters to behave this way. I agree with that. Where I disagree is that it doesn't make sense for his character to be behaving this way at this point in the series without more.
Butters has access to more information than any other character, except maybe Michael, to trust that Harry didn't come back wrong because Bob was the one who first figured out what happened to Harry in Ghost Story. I.e. that Harry wasn't even dead, and that Uriel, Archangel of the Lord, is behind it. That should be enough to convince Butters that Harry didn't come back "wrong."
In my opinion, Harry stealing Bob in book 14 and claiming that it is for the protection of Andy is purely just an excuse. Harry himself don't buy that excuse inside because under Bob's intense scrutiny and questioning when they are talking in the car, Harry totally can't defend himself. Harry don't have a clear concience, how do you expect others to trust him?
In my opinion, Harry stealing Bob in book 14 and claiming that it is for the protection of Andy is purely just an excuse.
I doubt anyone knows that Uriel is involve in book 13.
As for Murphy in FM. Of course Murphy intend to talk to Harry about it. She is going to listen to him. She is just going to do it in the police station, not in Mcfinn's home. the current evidence, though not enough to convict Harry, is enough to make him a suspect. A suspect is supposed to be arrested.
She is a police woman, not a court judge. She can arrest him, but she can't convict him in the firstplace. Since all the circumstancial evidence show that Harry is involve, apprehending Harry is a logical decision. She can listen to Harry's explanation after she arrest him and if Harry is truly innocent the law will sort things out. There is nothing wrong about that. Arresting Harry is completely all right in my opinion, punching Harry and chipping his tooth however is probably a bit accessive. So Murphy has a bad temper, well, nobody's perfect.
"A bit excessive"? It's a clear-cut case of police brutality! It would be bad enough if Murphy did that to someone she didn't know, and that she does it to someone we're supposed to believe she cares about says a lot about her as a person. A suspect is supposed to be arrested, yes, not assaulted when they aren't trying to fight back. And Murphy specifically punches Harry again when he tries to say something, and says "no more talking," so I do not believe she was going to listen to him when they got to the police station--more likely, given her behavior in this scene, she would have just punched him again when he tried to say that he was innocent.
But he did bring him back, Harry could have left him in the tunnel on the island and what could any of the really do? Bob might not like it, but he'd obey and do Harry's bidding because he had the skull back.
An excuse for what?
Bob knows--he and Harry talk about it during Ghost Story.
"A bit excessive"? It's a clear-cut case of police brutality! It would be bad enough if Murphy did that to someone she didn't know, and that she does it to someone we're supposed to believe she cares about says a lot about her as a person. A suspect is supposed to be arrested, yes, not assaulted when they aren't trying to fight back. And Murphy specifically punches Harry again when he tries to say something, and says "no more talking," so I do not believe she was going to listen to him when they got to the police station--more likely, given her behavior in this scene, she would have just punched him again when he tried to say that he was innocent.
If you steal money while knowing that you did something rong . Even if you return the money afterwards to the last penny, it does not change the fact that you did a crime. It just show that you are remorseful. especially since you only return it after you are asked to do it or even pressured to do it. We may argue that Harry will return Bob voluntarily at the end, but since the text is as it is, we will never know.
An excuse to comfort his own conscience. A self denial of a sort.
As for Murphy, I think it precisely because she and Harry has a close partnership at the time which make Murphy so angry and punch him. You see, Murphy is going out on a limb by involving Harry in the investigations, due to those rumors spread at the end of SF. At the start of the investigation, Murphy has requested that Harry tell her everything and grant her full disclosure and Harry agreed. Though from Harry's PoV we as readers can see that Harry is not really trying to hide anything, from Murphy's PoV it sure look a lot like Harry is doing exactly that. In truth, Harry is indeed hiding a lot of things. Harry has not yet clued Murphy in on the supernatural like he did in book 4. Though Harry has a reason for it, it is undeniable that it is a violation of the full disclosure agreement she and Harry consented at the start of the investigations. In a way, it is a kind of betrayal on Harry's part. This is exactly what ID Harry is saying to Harry when he is unconscious.
Harry has his own reasons to do what he did. Murphy has her own reason to blew her top too. I am not saying that it is right for her to punch Harry. I am just saying that it is not out of character for her to do so. She is human after all. She can misunderstand and make a mistake like anyone else.
And of course she is going to listen to Harry. It is due process of the law after all. No matter how angry she was, FM Murphy will never use public power to avenge private wrongs.
If you steal money while knowing that you did something rong . Even if you return the money afterwards to the last penny, it does not change the fact that you did a crime. It just show that you are remorseful. especially since you only return it after you are asked to do it or even pressured to do it. We may argue that Harry will return Bob voluntarily at the end, but since the text is as it is, we will never know.
I doubt anyone knows that Uriel is involve in book 13.Bob does. Butters has Bob and is concerned Harry came back wrong. Butters should know because he should have talked to Bob about it.
As for Murphy in FM. Of course Murphy intend to talk to Harry about it. She is going to listen to him. She is just going to do it in the police station, not in Mcfinn's home.I don't believe that for a second. She's furious with him. He keeps trying to talk to her and she keeps stopping him. Then she reads him his rights. Interrogation is all about getting and keeping the witness/suspect talking. If you do that long enough, you will get all the evidence you need. At this point, she has serious legal restrictions preventing an effective interrogation from taking place. Before that, she had a talking suspect with little in the way of legal rights protecting him from questioning. Murphy had no intention of questioning or listening to Dresden at this point.
So Murphy has a bad temper, well, nobody's perfect.She committed a federal felony when she started beating on him. It's a really, really big deal. Under the law, she should go to prison for several years, permanently lose several rights, and never be allowed in law enforcement again.
[1.]She is human after all. She can misunderstand and make a mistake like anyone else.
[2.]And of course she is going to listen to Harry. [3.]It is due process of the law after all. [4.]No matter how angry she was, FM Murphy will never use public power to avenge private wrongs.
Bob does. Butters has Bob and is concerned Harry came back wrong. Butters should know because he should have talked to Bob about it.
I don't believe that for a second. She's furious with him. He keeps trying to talk to her and she keeps stopping him. Then she reads him his rights. Interrogation is all about getting and keeping the witness/suspect talking. If you do that long enough, you will get all the evidence you need. At this point, she has serious legal restrictions preventing an effective interrogation from taking place. Before that, she had a talking suspect with little in the way of legal rights protecting him from questioning. Murphy had no intention of questioning or listening to Dresden at this point.
She committed a federal felony when she started beating on him. It's a really, really big deal. Under the law, she should go to prison for several years, permanently lose several rights, and never be allowed in law enforcement again.
[Edit]
1. I've never gotten so mad I committed a felony. I think you're underestimating the weight of what Murphy did here. 2. Already addressed. 3. No. Due process is many things, but it has nothing to do with being able to make your case to the arresting officer, lead investigator, or even prosecutor. 4. That's exactly what she is doing. The private wrong is a betrayal of trust, which didn't actually happen. The abuse of public power was the previously mentioned felony.
I'm confused as to what you are saying here. Are you saying that it was wrong for Harry to steal Bob in the first place regardless of the fact that he returned him, or that returning him didn't count because Murphy pressured him into doing it, or that you don't think Harry returned Bob at all?
...Then why did he do it? He specifically told Andi that she couldn't be seen to help him, even after she found out that he needed Bob and said that he could take him; however, when he ran into Molly and Thomas, he was just fine with both of them helping--to me, this shows that Harry was trying to protect his lower-powered friends by keeping them out of it; he was fine getting help from people who could protect themselves.
When do we see this close partnership? Their relationship in Storm Front is basically Murphy not really trusting Harry but trying to get his help regardless, then we're told that Murphy hasn't talked to Harry between Storm Front and Fool Moon, then in Fool Moon their relationship starts as Murphy not really trusting Harry but trying to get his help regardless and degenerates from there.
And I'm saying that if that scene in Fool Moon is not out of character for Murphy, then Murphy is a character whom I do not like and do not think is a particularly decent person.
Assaulting suspects is not due process of the law, yet Murphy had no problem with that. I fail to see how, after a scene in which Murphy clearly disregards the law, and in which you say that she is not out of character, you can then turn around and claim that it is obvious Murphy would not do something outside the law and that always following the law is an intrinsic part of her character at that time.
Also, you did not respond to my reasons for not believing that Murphy would listen to Harry: namely, that when Harry tried to say something, she punched him in the face and said, "no more talking." That sends a pretty clear message.
First thing, it is exactly due process not to listen too much to a suspect words during the time of arrest. There is a better time to do that kind of thing. You have the right to remain silent is not a joke. A suspect is treated differently than a witness, and Murphy acted as such.
As for police vilence, well, you know yourself that this kind of thing happened quite often. Furthermore, Murphy know more than most what Harry is capable of. It is actually not a bad idea to incapacitate Harry with a punch just in case. Harry is a powerful and dangerous man after all. It might not be legal or ethical, but it is practical to put the guy down to reduce the chance of complication. In the case of FM, Harry is innocent and he probably won't escape the police, but nobody knows that and Murphy can no longer depend on the trust between her and Harry.
Harry is a good guy, but in case he is the bad guy, he need to be treated seriously considering his power. It is the same reason why the white council is so wary of him. The same reason why Murphy is harsh on him in book 14. The same principle applies. It is the side effect of having great power which is probably why the council emphasize secrecy.
Entering into someone's house without permission is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Harry knew it. He should have ask to borrow Bob from Butters. He said he can't do it because he need to keep Butters uninvolved and safe, but Bob denounce him and Harry has no defense.
Harry should have learn this lesson long ago. Susan in book 3 and that 2 werewolf in book 11 is the price for this kind of mistake.
The moment he burgled Butters's home, Butters already involve. He should have known better and he did, but he still make the mistake because he don't trust anyone.
Harry don't mind Thomas and Molly because Harry don't have much of a choice. He can't intimidate them, Thomas is his brother and Molly is freaking Molly and Harry owe her too much for what happened in book 12. He could not get them uninvolved even if he wanted to. The fact that Harry do not take the initiative to ask Thomas or Molly for help is already a bad indication.
As for Murphy in FM. Remember that Murphy's and Harry's relationship during book 1 and 2 is not as strong as after book 4. How can a trusting partnership be develop if Harry is keeping so much secrets?
Yes, there is trust between them, but that is trust between an employee and an employer, not the trust between comrades that has gone through life and death. The evemnts in FM started the evolution of their relationship from mere employer and employee to life and death partner. Even so, I say Murphy and Harry only truly become life and death comrade in book 4 and it solidify after book 6.
If you say you don't like Murphy because of that punch, well, that is your choice, though I don't understand why we need to dislike a character for a single mistake. Harry himself make a much worse mistakes and nobody is hating him for it. Heck, even Michael is not totally clean. There are people who even like freaking Marcone, what can I say?
And it is common sense not to listen to suspects during the time of arrest. So Murphy not wanting to listen to Harry at the time is normal. Harry is a suspect now and he needed to be treated as such. Expecting Murphy to still treat Harry as a friend and partner under such a circumstance is asking too much. And though the punch in the face probably could be avoided, it is not too far out of the practical norm either.
First thing, it is exactly due process not to listen too much to a suspect words during the time of arrest. There is a better time to do that kind of thing. You have the right to remain silent is not a joke. A suspect is treated differently than a witness, and Murphy acted as such. If Murphy stay and listen, she could be accuse with colluding with a felon.
1. I do not think you understand what is being said here. The violation of due process that has been committed is the assault of a suspect. The argument is: since she already violated due process once (by assaulting, ie repeatedly punching) a suspect, you cannot logically claim that Murphy would do anything (in this case, listen to Harry) because not doing so would violate due process. Murphy has already proved that she is willing to violate due process once, so it cannot logically be claimed that she would never violate due process. That is the main rebuttal of your claim that "of course Murphy would have listened to Harry because if she didn't, it would violated due process."
Supporting evidence also provided is that Murphy did not, in fact, listen to Harry when he tried to talk to her; that further, she assaulted him when he tried to speak; and that even further, she specifically said "no more talking."
2. Yes, suspects have the right to remain silent. Not the obligation to do so.
3. A suspect is treated differently than a witness, yes. This does not mean it is in any way acceptable for a police officer to physically assault them--which Murphy did. This makes her as much of a criminal as she believed Harry to be.
1. Yes, police violence happens a lot. So does murder. Does the fact that lots of people commit murder mean that we should stop arresting, prosecuting, and imprisoning murderers?
2. First, as I remember it, it was at least two punches. Second, it demonstrably did not incapacitate him.
3. By your logic, Murphy should have put a bullet through Harry's head rather than arresting him.
4. What trust? The only trust the books have shown between Harry and Murphy is exceedingly one-way: Harry trusts Murphy, and Murphy does not trust Harry.
So you're saying that police brutality is acceptable when directed at people who have a black belt in martial arts? Or military veterans? I assume when you say "powerful," you mean people who are physically dangerous and who cannot be considered safe even when disarmed. If not, maybe we should say that police brutality is fine when directed at computer hackers, rich people, and people with political connections as well.
I'm pretty sure no one on this thread is claiming that stealing is right. What we're saying is that Harry had understandable reasons, and that his motivation was good.
...Actually, I don't think either of these are good examples, but getting into a discussion about them would derail the thread. I'll start another thread about this issue when I'm finished responding to your post.
He does trust people--he trusts Murphy's judgement more than his own, and he trusts Molly enough that he tells her what he describes as (paraphrased, because I don't have my book available to look it up) "far more truth than I ever shared." He's not refusing to ask Butters for help because he doesn't trust Butters; he's refusing to keep Butters safe. (I'm explicitly not referring to what happens after Harry finds out about Nemesis--at that point he does stop trusting people, and quite rightly).
Harry does have a choice--I am reasonably confident that Harry could beat either of them in a fight, and then knock them out or otherwise restrain them. And "can't intimidate them"? They're his friends--he would be trying to persuade them, not intimidate them. And practically speaking, Harry doesn't owe Molly for what happened in Changes: the suicide thing was an explicit abrogation of his free will, and thus he cannot be held responsible for it; and coming to the big fight was Molly's free-willed choice, as I believe she told Harry in Ghost Story. And when and for what would Harry have asked for Molly and Thomas's help with? He didn't know he needed them until he'd already run into them. As soon as he does run into them, he does ask them for help--it's not like he says, "hi, we should catch up later, but right now I'm doing something that I'm not going to let you get involved in."
Once again, you are misunderstanding what I, at least, am saying. My claim has never been that Murphy should treat Harry as her close friend. It has explicitly been that there is little or no trust between them, so claiming that Harry betrayed Murphy's trust does not excuse her actions--because, once again, that trust does not exist to be betrayed.
It's not just her punching Harry. It is what that action shows about her earlier actions, and her later actions in response to that.
Earlier: At this point, I have been excusing Murphy's treatment of Harry for a book an a half because "She's a good cop. That's why she's acting like this." However, her assault of Harry proves that she is not a good cop, and that therefore her being one retroactively does not excuse any of her earlier actions.
Later: She never apologizes (not until 6 books later, and not until Harry brings it up, and then the apology was perfunctory, so to me it does not count). She still tries to arrest him even when he is in the middle of saving her and her fellow police officers' lives. She acts as though Harry expecting her to shoot her is somehow unjustified, even though all her behavior up until this point makes it a completely reasonable assumption on his part. She never indicates that she feels that she was wrong to assault a suspect (ie, she wishes she hadn't done it because Harry was innocent, not because it's a violation of the law) while still claiming that the law is important and should be upheld as this sacred thing, which makes her a hypocrite.
Harry, by contrast, almost always feels bad about his mistakes, and either apologizes, tries to make up for them, or both.
What has Michael done that's wrong?
And yeah, I don't get why people like Marcone either.
1. Since when do people not listen to suspects when they're being arrested? They may disregard what they say, but that's not the same as not listening.
2. I'm not expecting Murphy to treat Harry as a friend; I'm expecting Murphy, as a police officer, to not commit a felony-level crime. I don't feel like that's an unreasonable standard.
3. It's not outside the norm to repeatedly assault suspects who are A) not fighting back; and B) clearly in shock? Can you please provide evidence for this position? Because I find it fairly unbelievable.
The 2 punches does incapacitate Harry, at least mentally if not physically. Harry is too busy hurting and being sorry for himself. If not for Terra west appearing to rescue him, Harry would have end up in the detention centre.
The punches has it's uses, though I am not sure whether or not Murphy has that function in mind when she punch Harry. Most of it is probably because Murphy is piss off with Harry and felt betrayed.
However, the idea that because Murphy punch Harry at the time meant that she'll never going to listen to Harry for all eternity is ludecrous.
This is exactly the problem. Murphy punch Harry in book2 and it is concluded that she won't listen to Harry forevermore. She talk about retaliating against those street punks in book 13 and it is concluded without a doubt that she must have gone darkside. That simply does not make sense. It is making a mountain out of a mole hill. People say things and even sometimes do things during times of anger and stress which does not reflect their entire personality. You might as well say that Michael is a murderer because he threatens to kill Ft. Douglas during that SS.
It's not just her punching Harry. It is what that action shows about her earlier actions, and her later actions in response to that.
Earlier: At this point, I have been excusing Murphy's treatment of Harry for a book an a half because "She's a good cop. That's why she's acting like this." However, her assault of Harry proves that she is not a good cop, and that therefore her being one retroactively does not excuse any of her earlier actions.
Later: She never apologizes (not until 6 books later, and not until Harry brings it up, and then the apology was perfunctory, so to me it does not count). She still tries to arrest him even when he is in the middle of saving her and her fellow police officers' lives. She acts as though Harry expecting her to shoot her is somehow unjustified, even though all her behavior up until this point makes it a completely reasonable assumption on his part. She never indicates that she feels that she was wrong to assault a suspect (ie, she wishes she hadn't done it because Harry was innocent, not because it's a violation of the law) while still claiming that the law is important and should be upheld as this sacred thing, which makes her a hypocrite.
Yes, the punch is a mistake, I never say it wasn't. But it is within limits and the circumstances involve does make it understandable. Murphy refuse to listen to Harry at the time cannot be use as the reason to say that she will never going to listen to Harry for all time. Murphy deviating slightly from police procedure cannot be make the evidence to conclude that she is not a good cop. Nobody is perfect and Murphy's personality flaw is something that makes her character more real instead of a fictional Marry sue.
As for appolagizing. Well, we know she already appoligize in book 8. When exactly she apologize and how she make up for it probably is not on the screen. There is too much happening between books that we don't know.
She never apologizes (not until 6 books later, and not until Harry brings it up, and then the apology was perfunctory, so to me it does not count).
All I know that Harry accepted and acknowledge her apology. That should be enough.
As for police violence. I am saying that there is a reason why this kind of thing is tolerated and sometimes police leaders shut one eye regarding such matters. There are time and place and extenuating circumstances which makes such things understandable.
If Harry has his own reasons to steal Bob and it is understandable, why not Murphy as well?
Since the books does not focus on Murphy, we know too little to say that Murphy don't have an understandable reason for what she did.
FM for example: It is a serial murder case. A new victim may appear anytime. Capturing a culprit is saving a life. It is urgent as hell.
Involving Harry in the investigations already put Murphy under pressure. If Harry suddenly become a suspect, how do you think this will effect Murphy?
This alone already makes her anger understandable.
Why does it becomes understandable when it comes to Harry and it is untolerable when it comes to Murphy? That is what I am confuse about.
She never apologizes (not until 6 books later, and not until Harry brings it up, and then the apology was perfunctory, so to me it does not count). She still tries to arrest him even when he is in the middle of saving her and her fellow police officers' lives. She acts as though Harry expecting her to shoot her is somehow unjustified, even though all her behavior up until this point makes it a completely reasonable assumption on his part. She never indicates that she feels that she was wrong to assault a suspect (ie, she wishes she hadn't done it because Harry was innocent, not because it's a violation of the law) while still claiming that the law is important and should be upheld as this sacred thing, which makes her a hypocrite.
Harry, by contrast, almost always feels bad about his mistakes, and either apologizes, tries to make up for them, or both.
[1.] Murphy deviating slightly from police procedure cannot be make the evidence to conclude that she is not a good cop. ...
[2.] If Harry has his own reasons to steal Bob and it is understandable, why not Murphy as well?
[3.] Since the books does not focus on Murphy, we know too little to say that Murphy don't have an understandable reason for what she did. ...
[2.] Why does it becomes understandable when it comes to Harry and it is untolerable when it comes to Murphy?
No. Seeing Kim dead incapacitated Harry. He was non-functional before Murphy punched him--it's one of the things that, as I have stated before, makes her actions worse.
Why does Murphy feel betrayed? You've acknowledged yourself that she doesn't trust Harry all that much.
This is a straw man argument. Please do not use them in serious discussions. Saying that Murphy would refuse to listen to Harry for all eternity is ludicrous, which is why no one's said that, and no one who bothered to think about it would assume so. What is being said is that Murphy would refuse to listen to Harry for somewhere between a few days and a month--somewhere in that time range.
Are you actually reading my posts? I feel like you're not, because I responded to exactly this in my last post. Here, I'll re-post it:
Do you honestly believe that assaulting a suspect repeatedly is only "deviating slightly from police procedure" (emphasis mine)? Because either you live somewhere with a far worse law enforcement system than where I live, or there is something wrong here. It is a felony-level offense committed by an officer of the law. That is extremely serious. That is the equivalent of Michael deciding to murder someone because he thought they might be a denarian--a grievous violation of all that a cop/Knight (cop referring to Murphy, Knight referring to Michael, if that wasn't clear) is supposed to stand for.
I recall no evidence that Murphy ever apologized prior to Proven Guilty, and her apology there (not knowing the extent of the damage she did to Harry) indicates that such an apology did not take place. As such, I will continue believing that she did not do so until someone provides specific book quotes with evidence to the contrary. As to her apology in Proven Guilty, I will again quote my last post:
I'm going to be blunt here: Harry in Fool Moon acts like an abused spouse when it comes to Murphy. His entire attitude is "I'm sorry I made her hit me." Seriously, switch the genders and replay that scene and the discussion Harry has about it with his subconscious.
Yes. There are times and places that make this kind of thing understandable. This is not one of them.
Murphy is not being betrayed by her close friend who she has lost her job over and defended to all comers.
Murphy is not attempting to extract information from Harry that would save lives.
Harry is not smug or gloating about what happened. (Quite the contrary, actually.)
Murphy has not been personally assaulted by Harry, nor has anyone she cares about.
These are all reasons that I would consider to make Murphy's behavior understandably--but none of them apply.
See above for the answer to this. Harry provides reasons; Murphy does not, nor does the text of Fool Moon, nor the text of any of the other books.
This quote reminds me irresistibly of Xenophilius Lovegood. No, you can't prove a negative. However, we have 15 books and assorted short stories worth of Murphy, and in all of that I can't find an understandably reason. As such, I assume that there is not one, for the same reason that I assume that gravity is going to continue working. I may not be able to prove definitively that it won't stop working at some point in the future, but there's plenty of evidence that it hasn't yet, and that's good enough for me.
Yeah, but even Murphy doesn't believe that Harry's the actual killer. She's arresting him for conspiracy. That means that arresting him won't actually save lives, and wouldn't even if he were guilty.
Probably less badly than if she were brought up on charges for a felony-level crime committed during the commission of her duties.
It makes her being angry understandable. It does not make her assaulting Harry understandable.
Once again, you are not reading my posts, and once again, I will repost what I have said on this topic in my last post:
I only want to say that Harry, as the main protagonist of the story, is not that much of a loser. If six years pass and Harry acknowledge Murphy's apology and even felt ashame digging it up in an argument, I must assume that Murphy has already properly apologize and the matter is over and done with. There is no need to show it on the screen. I trust Harry's judgement at least that much.
During FM, Murphy and Harry has a working relationship. Harry is her trusted employee. It is a betrayal from an employee instead of a close friend, but it is a betrayal regardless, at least in her point of view at the time.
If you understand her anger in FM, we are in accord. She punching Harry is a mistake, we both agree about that as well.
Using this mistake to conclude that Murphy won't listen to Harry afterwards however, is another story.
After Murphy punch Harry and blew up some steam, she is likely to back to herself.
The way JB is portraying Murphy, Murphy punching Harry should be an isolated incident, a means to portray Murphy's angry state of mind at the time, not an indicator of Murphy's character.
Using this mistake to conclude that Murphy won't listen to Harry afterwards however, is another story.
I, on the other hand, read the books well enough to understand that Harry has a guilt complex, and that such is a part of his character.
Trusted? What books are you reading? Murphy has demonstrated repeatedly and consistently, in both Storm Front and Fool Moon, that she does not trust Harry.
And if he were her trusted employee, it still wouldn't be enough of a betrayal to warrant her actions.
Actually, we're not in accord, because you think that her punching Harry is a small thing and an isolated incident, and I feel that it reflects a pattern of behavior that continues through Skin Game (albeit, not directed at Harry much in the later books). Her reasons for punching Harry are exactly the same reasons she cites in the beginning of Skin Game for why she should not pick up a Sword.
...using her actions, ie her physical assault of Harry when he tries to speak for the purpose of preventing him from speaking and her verbal confirmation that she does not want him to speak, to provide evidence for my claim that she is not going to listen to him? How is that in any way even controversial? If, when I open my mouth and try to speak, someone punches me in the face and says "no more talking," I am going to assume, like a rational person, that they aren't interested in listening to me talk. Are you honestly saying I would be wrong to do so?
No, she isn't. We know this because we saw her not being back to herself later in the book.
Really? Have you read Ghost Story? What about Skin Game? The way Jim has written Murphy, her actions in Fool Moon are an extreme manifestation of negative character traits which she is shown to continually struggle with.
It's not just the punching. It's the repeated shutting down of him attempting to speak to her. It's her arresting him thus giving him additional constitutional protection form self incrimination. It's her reading him his rights while they are battling MacFinn. It's her still wondering if Harry is playing her while they are on Marcone's estate. Honestly, the punching is the least of it when it comes to my opinion that she's not going to listen to him any time soon.
Harry has a guilt complex, but he always get things right in the end. He is slow, but he'll get there eventually. Six years has gone by, if Harry still can't straight things out in his mind, he is not worthy of his wizard title.
With all those rumors running around, Murphy would not have involve Harry in the investigations if she do not trust Harry. So if you say there is no trust and thus no betrayal, it is wrong.
If I want to talk and someone punch me in the face to shut me up, I will indeed assume that this person don't want to talk to me. In my anger and humiliation, I even may assume that this person will never talk to me again. But if I calm down and think rationally, I will realize that we should be able to talk again after both party calms down.
You say Murphy won't listen to Harry. I say Murphy won't listen to Harry at the moment.
Murphy has a temper. It is a character flaw. The same as Harry's character flaw which is his guilt complex. Maybe arrogance and some trust issue too. The character flaw causes problem from time to time.
There is nothing wrong with that. If you call this a patern, than perhaps it is. Murphy is not the only one who has it though.
Listen in the midst of Battle? Are you serious? That sounds suicidal to me.?
And as for Murphy reading Harry's rights when fighting Mcfinn. Well, Harry is a suspect. Not just a suspect, but a suspect that escape police custody. Reading his rights is as it should be. If she is still angry, she would have gave Harry another punch or just shoot him.
Having a good talk under those circumstances simply isn't right.
I don't see Harry improving much either. His character flaw is still there and making trouble from time to time as always.
To an extent. One major example of character development here is his response to Murphy getting hurt in Skin Game. In earlier books, he would have (and frequently did) blame himself for what happened to Murphy, but in this book he is able to acknowledge that she made her own choices, and he is not to blame for what happened to her. He also doesn't hold himself responsible for Butters being put in danger, for much the same reason.
I don't see Harry improving much either. His character flawS;Disare still there and making troublefrom time to time as alwaysvirtually all the time.
Murphy has improve too. She don't punch Harry anymore.
I had thought she was improving in later books, and quite liked her, but then Cold Days made me re-evaluate, and caused me to conclude that she didn't actually improve that much, but rather her character flaws just weren't directed at Harry in those books.
[1.] Listen in the midst of Battle? Are you serious? That sounds suicidal to me.?
[2.] And as for Murphy reading Harry's rights when fighting Mcfinn. Well, Harry is a suspect. Not just a suspect, but a suspect that escape police custody. Reading his rights is as it should be. If she is still angry, she would have gave Harry another punch or just shoot him.
Having a good talk under those circumstances simply isn't right.
It seems rather insensitive to call attention to the fact that the poster uses English as a second language by pointing out problems with his usage. The language is clear enough.
1. The point of this is that she is still behaving irrationally. I'd be fine with the "you're still under arrest" quip. She's trying to arrest Harry while the most dangerous thing either of them has ever seen is killing her men. 2. If she's to busy to figure out what's going on, she's too busy to arrest Harry or even read him his rights. If she's not too busy, then she's not too busy. One must give Murphy the benefit of the doubt in every instance to come to the conclusions you do. I don't think that is reasonable.
Jimmy was talking about a character flaw that occasionally causes problem. g33k was making the point that Harry has many character flaws that constantly cause problems. I find that Harry has improved most of his character flaws a good deal, or there is some new magical influence that makes him more susceptible to that flaw which he has to deal with, so even if he is behaving/thinking worse, it's not because he isn't improving himself.
And as for Murphy and her character flaws, I think she has improved a good deal over the series too. She's had some major setbacks, so some backsliding here and there is to be expected. (The nightmare attack, breaking the law in Blood Rights, being demoted in Proven Guilty, losing her job in Skin Game, discovering Dresden is almost certainly dead followed by the Fomor conflict, and the circumstances of Dresden's return).
Her one character flaw remains, when she thinks she is right, her mind closes up like a clam.. Harry completely trusts her judgement so he doesn't see it, love may have something to do with it.
And as for Murphy and her character flaws, I think she has improved a good deal over the series too. She's had some major setbacks, so some backsliding here and there is to be expected. (The nightmare attack, breaking the law in Blood Rights, being demoted in Proven Guilty, losing her job in Skin Game, discovering Dresden is almost certainly dead followed by the Fomor conflict, and the circumstances of Dresden's return).
What I can't understand why when it comes to Murphy, people tends to ignore how Harry respond to it by the simple excuse of "Harry is having a guilt complex" or "Harry is weak to a female in general and to Murphy specifically"
Do you guys realize how much those assertions cheapens Harry's value. It makes Harry sounds like a hen pek loser of a weakling and an idiot too. In book 8, it is shown that Harry accepted Murphy's apology and acknowledge it. It even goes so far as Harry being ashame for digging the case up in argument. Six years has pass after the events in FM and people still think that Harry is unable to realize that he is unfairly treated because he is having a guilt complex. Hells bells!
Harry is a wizard, a freaking wise man. Where is his wisdom. Where is his self respect? Where is his intelligence? Being soft to females can't possibly go this far, can it?
It can be said that the series is about 90% from Harry's PoV. If we cheapens Harry that much, how does the value of the series becomes?
So, wait, now Murphy is allowed to have character flaws but Harry isn't? Because that's what having this kind of guilt complex is for Harry. Murphy's arrogance manifests in her placing her judgement above other people's, and Harry's arrogance manifests in him blaming himself for everything--ie, his guilt complex. Personally, I find Harry's manifestation of arrogance far more likable (since, among other things, it is far less likely to hurt other people) than Murphy's, but I have never claimed that either of them having this character flaw somehow "cheapens" them!
You seem to be claiming that for Harry to have character flaws, or at least this character flaw, somehow invalidates both his entire character and the whole book series. That seems ridiculous to me, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Could you please clarify whether or not this is what you meant, and if not, what you did mean?
I am not saying Harry can't get a character flaw. I am just saying it can't possibly be that bad. He is a wizard after all. Making a mistake in the heat of the moment is one thing. But if you are still mistaken after having 6 years of comtemplation, that is something else entirely. Not to mention, in this case, Harry seem not to realize that he is being unfairly treated at all. He is still helping Murphy counting the money after Murphy sold him off.
In that time, Murphy and he have become friends, so it makes sense that he doesn't really think about it that much. Also, in Fool Moon Harry's subconscious notes that he's been blaming himself for Elaine's fall to darkness (at that point, he didn't know that she had been enthralled) for ten years, so...
Once again, you demonstrate that you have problems remembering things I've previously posted, and once again I will re-post the relevant bit:
If we want to find excuses to infer that Murphy is bac sliding, we can. If we want to find reasons why she is improving, we can. The same with Harry.
Birds of a feather flocks together, and people who walks different roads cannot make plan together.
If Murphy is so manipulative and abusive, and Harry is still treat her as a friend, that in itself speaks badly about Harry. If he does not even realize he is being manipulated and abuse, he is a fool. If he realize the manipulation and is willing to accept such a treatment, that makes him into a loser.
Murphy and Harry has been partners for a long time. The love hurts SS even portrayed them as a great team. There must be a reason for it. One person keeps manipulating and the other person keep being manipulated and even being happy and content about it, and the guy is suppose to be a wizarcd. Don't you feel it is a joke??
They both backslide and you can't backslide without first improving. It's not surprising that they backslide either, as I said.
We know why Harry has these character flaws. We don't know where Murphy's come from.
They both backslide and you can't backslide without first improving. It's not surprising that they backslide either, as I said.
We know why Harry has these character flaws. We don't know where Murphy's come from.
Wow. Just...wow. This is the single most victim-blaming statement I have ever read. If you can't understand what's wrong with what you said, then I don't really want to talk to you.
Of course I find nothing wrong with it. At least for now. The relationship between Harry and Murphy is not 1 or 2 months, it is years. 15 years and maybe more. If you have such a manipulative friend for such a long time and you can still trust this person with your life, there is something wrong right there.
The part of your post that I had a problem with was you insulting everyone who'd ever been on the wrong end of an abusive relationship.
The Murphy-Harry thing is you not reading/not understanding my previous posts again.
Everyone else is normal people. Harry is a wizard.
And yes, if you are in an abusive relationship and you know it and you allow it, part of the wrong is with you. The only exception to this is if the abusive relationship is between a parent and a child or something like that, with the parent aka the one with the greater power as the one who is dishing out the abuse. When the abusive relationship is with people of equal status, there is a problem with both parties.
If anything, the power balance between Harry and Murphy leans more on Harry. Harry is the one with greater power and knowledge.
If he is the one who kept being manipulated, there is something wrong right there.
It is not that I don't understand you. I just do not accept the reasoning. A wizard of Harry's caliber should not have made such a low level mistake, even under those circumstances and issues, not after 6 years.
If he is that ggullable, Mab would have turn him into an obedient puppet by now. Or do you think Mab is less ccapable than Murphy.
After all, we don't ask *why* Morgan or Langtry or Ebenezer have their flaws though we know how they've messed up and how they've developed.
[1.] Being a female in a mostly male dominated police station should explain some of it. She have to be tough, or at least to be perceive as such by others.1. I think that has a lot more to do with Murphy than anyone else. Murphy has had a meteoric rise in the ranks. (Technically, it's impossible under current requirements).
[2.] Working as the director of SI equivalent to be exiled to Siberia in political terms should explain some more. It is relatively reasonable to assume she has been backstab many times in office politics.
[3.] Facing the dark side of society as a criminal officer and the dark side of the supernatural world as Harry's partner should explain some more. She is condition to be cautious and suspicious, in the love hurts SS I think she explain some of this. [4.] Well, maybe not in the "Love hurts" but it is certainly in "Side jobs". I can't remember clearly . It is the one with Mac's bar being attacked.
[5.] Trusting the system of the law and yet being disappointed again and again could explain even more.
And all this without Murphy being the main PoV character. [6.] Who knows what else she is facing off screen?
I think Murphy serves a completely different purpose in SF and FM than she does for pretty much every other book. She's there to be the antagonist Harry isn't allowed to smash to pieces or burn to ashes, not because she's got more power than him, but because he fundamentally doesn't want to hurt her.
Also, Harry's definition of "good cop" probably isn't "a cop who adheres to police procedures to the letter and would never harm a suspect in custody." It's probably more like "a cop who tries to save as many people as possible and who wouldn't hesitate to put themselves in harm's way to protect an innocent." You saw what the cops did to Binder in Turn Coat. Harry had a total blast screwing with Binder when he was in the interrogation room. If Murphy had clocked him, nobody would've minded, and Harry would still think of them as "good cops." You would probably disagree, but you're not Harry.
My original point is that Murphy's antagonism to Dresden in Fool Moon isn't properly set up, and we have to read between the lines in the rest of the series to back fill it. Even then, there is great debate on whether or not her actions are explainable.
My original point is that Murphy's antagonism to Dresden in Fool Moon isn't properly set up, and we have to read between the lines in the rest of the series to back fill it. Even then, there is great debate on whether or not her actions are explainable.
We can be trained to spot a lot of that irrationality ... but pretty much only in others. Also there's that old saying "the difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense."
Last I checked being a Wizard doesn't magically (heh) negate decades worth of abandonment issues, guilt complexes, and self-depreciation, so what the heck are you on about?
A wizard is a wise man, not just some spellslinger. A wizard is expected to understand matters,
To understand oneself and to understand others and ultimately to understand the universe. That is what wizards are. Casting spells is the least of a wizard's role. Wisdom and intelligence is the main portion.
Making a mistake is not a sin , but not learning from those mistake defenitely is a sin. That is what the gatekeeper say in book 4.
If 6 years has gone by and Harry still can't recognize that Murphy is manipulating him, well, what is Harry been learning all this time?
Not to mention that he is still get manipulated in book 14 in some people's opinion.
"The reason treachery is so reveiled," she [Murphy] said in a careful tone of voice, "is because it usually comes from someone you didn't think could possibly do such a thing.”Harry is in a position to get manipulated by Murphy because it would never occur to him that she would do so. She's spent the last 11 books demonstrating that he could trust her.
You mean, like understanding that when a woman takes off her clothes for you, she's hitting on you? Because as I recall, Harry didn't understand that one until it was pointed out to him.
I know that Harry goes on about this in Storm Front, but Jim has gone on record saying that he wrote Harry as the magical equivalent of a plumber, so I chalk it up to early installment weirdness.
When did Harry not learn from his mistake? He hasn't let Murphy or any of his other allies hit him after Fool Moon--when she tried it (albeit under the influence of mind control) he defended himself and knocked her out.
I'll repeat myself. Murphy is not manipulating Harry for most of the books. She manipulated him in one to three of them. She definitely manipulated him in Storm Front--even Harry acknowledged that. She didn't manipulate him in Fool Moon--she assaulted him, which is a different thing. She didn't manipulate him in Grave Peril, Summer Knight, Death Masks, Blood Rites, Dead Beat, Proven Guilty, White Night, Small Favor, Turn Coat, Changes, or Ghost Story. I view her as manipulating Harry in Cold Days, but I have acknowledged that that is not what Jim intended. As a direct result of my interpretation of her behavior in Cold Days, I also believe that she manipulated Harry in Skin Game.
There's a quote from Murphy in Turn Coat that is appropriate here. Harry is in a position to get manipulated by Murphy because it would never occur to him that she would do so. She's spent the last 11 books demonstrating that he could trust her.
" In Norse mythology, the Valkyries were beautiful young women who served both as Odin's messengers and as escorts to the souls of warriors killed in battle. In fact, Valkyries means "choosers of the slain." During battle, they would ride upon winged horses and, surveying the field, select brave warriors to die. Then they would transport these souls to Valhalla, Odin's hall. Once in the afterlife, the brave souls were enlisted to fight in the battle of Ragnarok, an apocalyptic conflict signaling the end of the world."
I think that she will get killed, but not leave the stories. I think that she will die on the field of battle, and be raised, and empowered by Odin as one of his soldiers. Her youth, and health will be restored, plus enhanced speed, strength, and durability. She will give the Winter Knight a run for his money in pure hand to hand combat.
Come to think of it there could be other characters who have died that we might see later that were enlisted by Odin... Susan for example. Or Morgan... I mean anyone Jim decides to bring back now has a doorway since we know that Odin, and Valkyries exist.
Isn't Murphy a Catholic?
Yeah I thought so. It Jim's book but, everything can't be fan service.
Not understanding on the spot is a different thing from not able to understand even after 6 years. True, Thomas need to remind Harry about it, but given time Harry should be able to understand by himself. He would have lost the moment, but he should understand eventually. And by eventually I mean in a matter of days or at most weeks, not years.
This kind of thing happened in book 7. When Murphy first come to Harry and ask him to water her plants while she went with Kincaid to Hawaii, Harry just accepts it literally. Later on though, Harry himself realize that Murphy is trying to give him a chance. Had Harry try to stop her from going, there is a good chance Murphy might say yes. This kind of self understanding and realization is Harry's safing grace.
This is what I am trying to say. Harry is slow and he can make silly mistakes, but if 6 years pass and he is still clueless, it is too much already. His guilty complex and weakness to women can and probably will blind his judgement on occasion, but this lapse in judgement should be temporary. It definitely could not possibly last for 6 years.
So when book 8 comes along and Murphy say she had apologize for the events in Full Moon and Harry accepted it and even feel ashame for digging it up in an argument, then the matter should be settled as such. We don't really need to have the event shown to us on the books explicitly.
I'm reasonably confident that I've said this already, but just in case, I'll say it again:
There are two arguments against this.
1) Harry blamed himself for Elaine for 10 years, even though that's definitely not his fault, and 10 years is definitely longer than 6 years. So Harry is absolutely capable of thinking something is his fault even thought it really isn't for 6 years.
2) Another reason he didn't realize that Murphy was in the wrong there was because he wasn't thinking about it in those 6 years. Here's an example. There's a math class I'm struggling a bit in, and when I have a test, I end up flunking. Only, plot twist, I actually got the math problems right. What really happened is that the teacher took an irrational dislike to my handwriting and decided to flunk me. When I get the test back, however, I'm uncertain enough of the subject matter that I assume that I genuinely flunked rather than that the teacher gave me the wrong grade. Now, fast forward 6 years, or you know what, fast forward only 1 year. I've been working on my math, and I'm much better now. If I was in that math class now, I would be confident of the material and would realize what the teacher had done. However, if someone said to me, "Hey, you're doing so well now, when just last year you flunked that test," my response would be, "Thanks, I am," rather than, "Well, actually the teacher flunked me for no reason." Unless someone shoved the test under my nose and made me go over all the problems individually, I would never realize that the teacher was the one at fault rather than me. This is because, having no reason to re-evaluate what had happened, I would just go with my initial evaluation. It doesn't mean that the same thing would happen to me now or in the future, and if it did I would realize it, but because I don't really think that much about the past incident, it just never really occurs to me that my original read on the situation could be wrong.
Except even at this stage in the game Harry usually defers to Murphy's judgement...
As to your example of your math test, I think of the over all consequences of the teacher failing you for penmanship... If the teacher didn't note on the exam as to why you failed, what was the point of failing you for bad penmanship?
If it was just one test in many tests you had taken in the class and your over all grade wasn't in the balance, what you say makes sense. However say it was the final that the teach failed you on for penmanship... That failure dropped your over all grade considerably, that lower grade messed up your G.P.A. as a result you missed getting a scholarship or getting into the college you desired.. If you knew you had studied, if the teacher gave you no explanation for the failure, I bet you wouldn't be so accepting of the results...
I also think you'd double check the results for any future test you were about to take..
You keep your tests once the class you took them for is over? Huh. I don't, so I hadn't included that in my analogy. If it bothers you, just pretend that the teacher didn't hand the tests back, and you found out your grade by looking on the school's website.
Nope. If you have serious confidence problems to do with schoolwork, and you explicitly know that you have problems with the specific subject, you're fairly unlikely to go up to the teacher and demand an explanation. Remember, in this analogy I am the equivalent of Harry, who has a guilt complex (equivalent to "confidence problems to do with schoolwork") and knows that he's messed things up (from his perspective, anyway) with Murphy previously (equivalent to knowing that he's struggling with the class material).
I would if I felt cheated...
One might consider a therapist...
Still, if the teacher in a math class flunks you due to penmanship, there should be a note to the fact on you paper... Harry has a guilt complex not because he is sloppy with his work, but perhaps maybe he is too good at it.. Thus he takes the blame when he doesn't deserve any..
I'm saying that:
The teacher's actions (flunking me even though he knew I got the problems right, because he was in a bad mood and didn't like my handwriting) are unprofessional and wrong, and are the conduct of a bad teacher = Murphy's actions (assaulting Harry, refusing to listen to him for any reason) are unprofessional and wrong, and are the conduct of a bad cop
Is that clearer?
But the point is that you didn't feel cheated at the time.
Clearer, but no sure if it matters unless it is part of a bigger picture.. Was your teacher just a bad teacher? Or is what happened to you merely a one of? Murphy's behavior towards Harry may have come from mere frustration because she was dealing with things beyond her understanding... Or is there a pattern of her smacking others around to get answers and her jumping to conclusions about evidence before she has the answers? If the latter than she is a bad cop..
That doesn't make sense unless you had no clue that your answers were right or you were okay with getting your answers dinged because of your poor writing skills..
When I get the test back, however, I'm uncertain enough of the subject matter that I assume that I genuinely flunked rather than that the teacher gave me the wrong grade.
Even if Murphy is injured enough to keep her out of the field, there are a number of ways in which she can remain relevant to the story in addition to what's already been stated. She was a detective for years. Most of what detectives do is kind of the opposite of kicking in doors. So she can be useful in chasing down leads for Harry, including on the internet. If they're together and not living in a Svartalf fortress, she can have Mouse's old function of keeping their place from exploding while he's out on a case. I'm sure a bunch of other functions can be thought of.
Or she could recover to a point that she is still out in the field to the same extent she has been for most of the series. She's only really been in the thick of it a for a good chunk of the action a few times. Most of the time, she is only in one minor action sequence. In several books she's either put on the bench or a bus and doesn't really do any major fighting anyway.