Have we discussed Harry's knighting ceremony in light of the Cold Case revelations about the Winter Lady's restrictions?
If Maeve handled Slate's initiation along with his selection, does that mean that there was no technical purpose to Mab's method of initiation with Harry?
Or do we think that Maeve picked Slate, and Mab handled the initiation?
Have we discussed Harry's knighting ceremony in light of the Cold Case revelations about the Winter Lady's restrictions?From what I can see, the act is the inception of 'creating' a personified WK undiluted by any influence from previous hosts. So Mab didn't make a new one for Slate, but passed it along to her directly as it was already in existence. Similar to how SK went directly to the SL, and then to Lily while she still held Ruel's(?) head up cupping it in her hand. No boink required. It's the inception that matters.
If Maeve handled Slate's initiation along with his selection, does that mean that there was no technical purpose to Mab's method of initiation with Harry?
Or do we think that Maeve picked Slate, and Mab handled the initiation?
I don't think "sexing" the WK is necessary. That was probably a bit of showmanship by Mab along with the live broadcasting. But, I do believe that the new knight has to kill the old knight. That would follow with the predatory nature of the mantle. As far as the Summer courts go, I would guess a more civil transference of power.
But, I do believe that the new knight has to kill the old knight. That would follow with the predatory nature of the mantle.I didn’t read the short story in question, so the prohibition on sex, while sounding really odd and like some sort of weird afterthought by Butcher, is beyond my ken. However, the notion that a wk would have to kill the previous one doesn’t work for practical reasons; I guess most die in the field.
I could be wrong. The two instances of a transference involved a summer knight mantle being placed in a hidden unwilling host and a broadcasted ritual of sacrifice against its tortured holder. So, maybe not the typical manner of transference. What do others think are the necessary components of a knight mantle being transferred?Loss of the mantle through vessel death or other form of removal and then transference by the empowered bestower to the new vessel. So, forfeiture, possession, transference.
I don't think "sexing" the WK is necessary. That was probably a bit of showmanship by Mab along with the live broadcasting. But, I do believe that the new knight has to kill the old knight. That would follow with the predatory nature of the mantle. As far as the Summer courts go, I would guess a more civil transference of power.
If the queen chooses poorly, another queen can come along and take it and bestow it on someone worthy. So, I do think they try to find good recruits to everyone's satisfaction.small thing
small thing
i disagree.
The books show us that there have been a few hundred years of bad recruits and Mab is far too intelligent for that to be something she didn't want.
My thoughts are that the stuff about her own knight being a threat to her is true. Knights focused on drugs or rape wouldn't be any threat to her, and until now she didn't need a powerful knight or a loyal winter lady.
Mab Knows that Ragnarök is coming and over the last decade or so it seems quite clear to me that shes been preparing for the war to end all wars.
side theory now it seems to me that mab has delt with both winter ladys, her handmaiden and winter knight and destroyed the red court id say Titania needs to be delt with next. shes obviously too unstable and depressed to lead the summer fay into war, she would be a massive liability.
also with Harry's mysterious and powerful lineage and his starborness. There are all kinds of interesting plot lines Jim could come up with for Mab wanting a child with Dresden. Also we didn't see Mab for at least 9 months after she knighted harry and when we did she was visibly weakened and fay have showed a strong desire to have a child with Dresden before. Id say he most likely has a changeling child out there with Mab
Of course the Queen(s) can kill their own Knight, that was why Harry was investigating them in the first place.
There's a Word of Jim somewhere that Harry won't have any more of his own kids show up, so if that's the case, I don't think we'll ever see him or her.
People really need to brush up on Summer Knight...half this stuff is already dealt with in that book since we're introduced to all these new characters. Of course the Queen(s) can kill their own Knight, that was why Harry was investigating them in the first place. And he consulted on the matter with Bob. And the mantle 'snaps back' to the nearest Queen no matter who or what ends up killing the Knight. That's why Aurora was able to hide it the way she did.Yeah, I do plan to brush up on all the books a few months prior to PT relase date. It is part of my habit.
And unless someone wants to argue that Aurora and Lily did the deed as a means of transferring the mantle to her before Aurora turned her to stone...I think it's a fair bet that either sex is NOT a requirement, just a fun bonus, or that only a Queen (not the Lady) can use that method.
Which is precisely why Aurora killed the Summer Knight, right? Oh wait, never mind, she made a deal with the Winter Knight to have him kill the Summer Knight, which would be completely pointless and unnecessary if she was capable of doing it herself.
I think the point was that it's not so much what Aurora actually did as the fact that the three Summer queens weren't automatically off the table due to inability to have done it that has bearing on the matter.
But I wouldn't draw too much of a conclusion about the rules of how the Knight mantle is passed from the events of Summer Knight. Even though Harry didn't understand it until much later, Mab must have surmised she was setting him to hunt someone infected by Nemesis, capable of breaking an unknown set of the usual hard-and-fast rules.
So if sex with WK is not necessary for Mantle transference then why did Mab do it? Was it a show of power? I know Raidem will say it is Murphy finally getting to do something that she has waited a long time to do and, while Mab certainly showed alot of corresponding emotional intensity with the act, I wonder if their could be other reasons for the "sexing."It is about a stronger ritual. It is about possession. It is about claiming.
If Ladies can't have sex; then, what were Lily and Fix doing? They seem to be more than friends.
It may not be that they cannot have sex. It's just that Carlos wasn't the right person.Fix and Lilly knew what they could and could not do. Lilly complained about children she wanted and could not have.
On the other hand, Fix IS a Knight, so he may be okay.
I held up a hand. "Hold it, hold it. Look, as I understand it, this power of the Summer Knight, his mantle, it can't just exist on its own. It has to be inside a vessel."
"Yes," Winter murmured. "Within one of the Queens, or within the Knight."
"How does the mantle pass on from one Knight to the next?"I know that these specifically refer to Summer, but for the sake of argument and in absence of other evidence I am going to proceed with the notion that the same applies to Winter. From these quotes we can glean a few things. Number 1, the mantles return to the nearest Queen. Number 2, that Queen then bestows the mantle onto the knight. Number 3, Mother Summer makes no mention of the previous knight having to die for the mantle to be released. I personally believe that there is a way for the Queens to take the mantle from a knight without requiring his or her death. Finally, no mention is made of needing the stone table for the transfer of the mantle. This is further corroborated by the fact that Fix was made the Summer Knight after the Stone Table was in possession of Winter. Also corroborated by logic because if the stone table was needed then the potential exists for the Knight mantle to be stuck within a Queen for months while they waited for the stone table to come back into their possession. This would result in an imbalance between the courts since one side does not have a Knight exerting their power.
Mother Summer smiled, but the expression was a grim one. "It returns to the nearest reflection of itself. To the nearest vessel of Summer. She, in turn, chooses the next Knight."
I shook my fingers and looked at my godmother. "Let me get this straight. Blood spilled onto the Table turns into power for whoever holds it. Summer now. But Winter, after tomorrow night."
She frowned at the Table, then began pacing around it, slowly, clockwise, her eyes never leaving me. "The Table is not merely a repository for energy, child. It is a conduit. Blood spilled upon its surface takes more than merely life with it."My theory is twofold (because Mab never does just one thing when she can accomplish more). First, Mab did not want to just pass the same mantle onto Harry. She wanted to purify or slightly change it. By killing Slate on the table the mantle was transferred to Winter as power. Mab then took that pure power (possibly without the taint of Slate or Maeve) and gave it to Harry as the Knight mantle. Second, killing the mortal on the table also yielded some additional power. Not as much as killing Harry or another wizard, but I am guessing that their was a power gain regardless. If this was then added to the Mantle during the transfer it could possibly give Harry an additional power boost to make him greater then Summer and better able to face what is coming.
"Power," I said. I frowned and folded my arms, watching her. "So if, for instance, a wizard's blood spilled there ..."
She smiled. "Great power would come of it. Mortal life, mortal magic, drawn into the hands of whichever Queen ruled the Table."
Fix and Lilly knew what they could and could not do. Lilly complained about children she wanted and could not have.
Personally, I was struck by how, when sealing a definitive bargain, Molly used a kiss.Argh!? I hope Harry doesn't have to go at it with either Mother....
Maybe the bigger the bargain the bigger the physical intimacy, with Harry's help-for-Knighthood being a particularly big bargain thus requiring serious intimacy (or maybe Mab just always uses that; the Lady-the-flirt a kiss, the Queen-the-mother sex).
Having children, and having sex are not the same thing.In this day and age. Why would a very old style mantle know about these things?
In this day and age. Why would a very old style mantle know about these things?
It probably just goes off when things get critical. It can read the Ladies intentions so it just draws a line at some point. Some simple petting if no intercourse is intended is probably ok. She would know.
Argh!? I hope Harry doesn't have to go at it with either Mother....I meant Queen-the-mother to be opposed to Queen-Mother (with caps). We have the maiden, the mother and the crone, but confusingly the crone is called Mother Winter/Summer.
I meant Queen-the-mother to be opposed to Queen-Mother (with caps). We have the maiden, the mother and the crone, but confusingly the crone is called Mother Winter/Summer.I think the queen is the 'active' one and the Mothers post is reserved for someone whose actually given 'birth' as a prerequisite, namely from the Knights mantle to spawn off it's own offshoot, ala Jolnir/Kringle.
I was referring to Mab/Titania.
They are all queens.
Queen-to-Be (Lady)
Queen-that-is (Queen)
Queen-that-was (Mother)
Hopefully, for Harry's sake, being the Queen's consort is taken care of already.
It's probably not an issue.
The Lady can't because Being Molly is Suffering/ (Plus Jim wanted to sink that ship).
The Queen can, but seriously, Mab has better things to do with her time. She's a busy lady.
The Mother? Please, she's way too Old for that shit.
Wanted to sink that ship? Then why does Harry's own subconscious support it? ;)
Because Harry's Subconscious is meant to be a bad guy, more or less.And girls want bad boys, in literary-world. If the ship had to be sunk, Skin Game has some decidedly weird pieces (if instead it's supposed to hang around incomplete, both Cold Case and Skin Game make sense).
They are all queens.That's the precise word they use to describe the knights in SK, consort to the queens, plural lol.
Queen-to-Be (Lady)
Queen-that-is (Queen)
Queen-that-was (Mother)
Hopefully, for Harry's sake, being the Queen's consort is taken care of already.
And girls want bad boys, in literary-world.
Girls will always go for the thrill and excitement of bad boys over the comfort and ease of good guys or nerdy guys. Until those girls get tired of going to therapy or the ER due to abuse. Then they give the good guys a try.
Girls will always go for the thrill and excitement of bad boys over the comfort and ease of good guys or nerdy guys. Until those girls get tired of going to therapy or the ER due to abuse. Then they give the good guys a try.Woman here. This made me laugh. This sounds like what guys who can’t get dates with the women they’d prefer to date say to make themselves feel better. :P I was definitely a party girl, out at clubs all the time, dancing, having fun, looking good and I never looked for the biggest jerk to be with. I can only speak for myself, but what I looked for was intelligence, wit and confidence in guys (and a certain level of fitness and attractiveness if I’m honest, though intelligence and wit are part of attractiveness). I guess the guys who bemoan that “girls” seek out these abusive guys instead of “nice” guys are the ones who lack self confidence. I also guess there were plenty of women who would have gone out with them if they asked and approached the right ones instead of the unobtainable (by them) ones. Butcher’s books contain the male nerd fantasy of all these super models being interested in the unattractive geeks. It is fantasy story, though.
Specifically on the MurphyDresden topic that spawned your “poor nice guys” tangent, I don’t know why Murphy would even consider getting involved with Dresden. That guy is an emotional train wreck and his life is a mess now. Years earlier, he was just a weird guy she knew who lived in a basement and had no money. They had no real connection then, so I’d be shocked if a successful career police officer would get into a relationship with him at that point.
We see Harry from inside his own head which distorts a few things, other people see him differently.
The first time Karen really wanted Harry was just after they destroyed the red court. That was a real display of strength and confidence. Harry in action is quite different from normal Harry as Karen mentioned in aftermath.
Now Harry has changed again. The mantle made him stronger, more confident and he had just invited her to go to hell and back with him. That is all very different from a geek in a basement. That was not enough in Cold Days because strength is a problem if you have not enough control.
I do not think people fall for bad, they fall for strength and confidence and sometimes being bad is confused with being strong.
In Murphy's case it's because she's just as much of a train wreck as far as personal relationships are concerned.Remember, Butcher wrote her. She’s not a real person. His depictions of women aren’t the best. I enjoy the story, but his female characters didn’t really ring true to me. He’s certainly mot alone in that, though. On the other side, Anne Rice’s male characters often came off as as middle aged women, especially in her later books. The funny thing about her female characters is they mostly were uninteresting or tried to act very male. There were a few good ones, though.
Married her first husband when she was 17. He was way older than her and they had a terrible on-off relationship. Her second husband was an A-Hole that left her because she refused to spend her life pregnant and in the kitchen, and then Married her younger sister (whom she also doesn't get along with) as a follow up.
As far as we know her next relationship was with Kincaid, an immortal demonic murderer for hire. And then there's the newly formed/forming relationship with Harry. Despite having spent years finding new excuses to avoid a relationship with him, now that he's constantly a hair's breath away from murdering and/or raping anyone within shouting distance, she's suddenly keen.
So yeah... Either Murphy is very much part of the "All Women want Bad Boys" Cliche, or she's just self-destructive to a degree that puts Harry to shame.
Remember, Butcher wrote her. She’s not a real person. His depictions of women aren’t the best. I enjoy the story, but his female characters didn’t really ring true to me. He’s certainly mot alone in that, though. On the other side, Anne Rice’s male characters often came off as as middle aged women, especially in her later books. The funny thing about her female characters is they mostly were uninteresting or tried to act very male. There were a few good ones, though.Plus he has killed all his girlfriends, or at least tried to.
Also, failed past relationships don’t compare to suicide guy who lives on a haunted island, is under the control of an amoral faerie queen and is at the center of an inter dimensional war. Dresden’s life is terrible.
Remember, Butcher wrote her. She’s not a real person. His depictions of women aren’t the best. I enjoy the story, but his female characters didn’t really ring true to me. He’s certainly mot alone in that, though. On the other side, Anne Rice’s male characters often came off as as middle aged women, especially in her later books. The funny thing about her female characters is they mostly were uninteresting or tried to act very male. There were a few good ones, though.It is not a competition as to who is the bigger trainwreck. Harry will usually win that one. I am saying that as far as relationships go, neither Murphy nor Harry have the best track record. Women often don't know how to write men. Men often don't know how to write women.
Also, failed past relationships don’t compare to suicide guy who lives on a haunted island, is under the control of an amoral faerie queen and is at the center of an inter dimensional war. Dresden’s life is terrible.
It is not a competition as to who is the bigger trainwreck. Harry will usually win that one. I am saying that as far as relationships go, neither Murphy nor Harry have the best track record. Women often don't know how to write men. Men often don't know how to write women.If the veil between sexes were that easily pierced every would be doing it.
Plus he has killed all his girlfriends, or at least tried to.Haha! Good point! And, Lucio was mind-controlled into a non-consensual relationship with him! And, Dresden is constantly bringing up Molly’s traing bra. What a creep!
Granted Luccio wasn't his girlfriend yet when he did it, and there were extenuating circumstances both there and with Susan, but damn. Would not want to be Murphy!
I think Harry's death changed Murphy's tune. People often realize something when it's too late; this time it really wasn't too late.