OK, I am reading the series for the second time and have a couple of questions.
1) Why did agent Benn's Hexbelt turn to goo (Fool Moon), everyone elses had to be burned?
2) When Harry burried Lasciel's coin (Death Masks); why didn't the wet cement disrupt the circle? Harry broke the Shadowmans circle with a film canister.
Thanks
Didn't he draw a circle around the wet cement? And its not the object that breaks the circle, its the will behind it.
OK, I am reading the series for the second time and have a couple of questions.
1) Why did agent Benn's Hexbelt turn to goo (Fool Moon), everyone elses had to be burned?
2) When Harry burried Lasciel's coin (Death Masks); why didn't the wet cement disrupt the circle? Harry broke the Shadowmans circle with a film canister.
Thanks
In SF p.66, Harry draws the circle to contain Toot, memorizes it's exact location, then covers it with leaves and twigs to hide it from view. Toot eats, the circle closes - everything works. However, on p.175 (when he and Susan are being attacked by the demon), Harry goes nuts ensuring that every scrap of paper is clear from the circle in his lab (the copper circle he installed in the floor - he should remember where it is... ;)) prior to activating it. I've gotten the impression that a circle's perimeter needs to be clear before activating it. Is this an inconsistancy, or am I missing something?
Something to do with the environment here, too. You can't have any foreign objects interrupt the circle. But since the circle was being made out of earth and twigs and leaves, it isn't going to be disrupted by earth and twigs and leaves. It still could have been /broken/ by one of them, if any of them had actually marred the circle drawn in the earth, so that it wasn't a complete shape any more (not just fallen over it). For that matter, if Toot had scuffed his foot through the circle on accident on the way in, that could have blown the trap, too.
Different situation with a big copper circle in a smooth concrete floor. I mean, I suppose Harry could have made a circle out of, I dunno, dirty laundry or something, and other dirty laundry laying across it could obscure it without breaking it. But then if the wrong sock gets shifted, pift, no circle any more. Much safer to go with the big metal circle in the floor that you know isn't going to be broken, and just take extra pains to make sure nothing falls across it.
Jim
Another related question that I have pondered a few times though, is why can the prison spell withstand so many sunrises and sunsets that typically degrade Harry's workings? The best answer I can come up with for that is that somehow an empowered circle is a different kind of magic than the workings that are degraded by passing of the day, or somehow Harry is actively maintaining the prison in his mind through some effort...
Didn't he draw a circle around the wet cement? And its not the object that breaks the circle, its the will behind it.
Nope!
"I dropped the coin into the hole. I slipped a steel ring about three inches across around it. I muttered to myself and willed
energy into the ring. The whispering abruptly cut off.
I dumped two buckets of cement into the hole and smoothed it until it was level with the rest of my floor. After that, I
hurried out of the lab and shut the door behind me."
A worktable ran down the middle of the room, and at its far end was a comparatively recent concrete patch that did not match the rest of the floor. The patch was surrowunded by the sumoning circle set into the stone. I'd splurged on replacing the old ring with a new one made out of silver and I'd moved everything in the room as far from it as I could.
The thing I'd locked up under the circle had been quiet since the night I had sealed it into a spirit-prison, but when it came to entombing a fallen angel, I was pretty sure that there was no such thing as too much caution.
I'd say that since the circle is inside a treshhold, in the books many wardens are built over threshold because they are a constant power source fulled by the people living there, so we could arguee that the dawn afect the treshold witch heals itself everyday. That's why an abandoned house would not maintain a threshold, it would in time be eaten away by dawn.
And as for passing of time, I'd say diferente from the enchanted object, a circle is a perfect structure there is no energy loss on it...
No wards on the office. To build a ward, you have to use a threshold of some kind. (Well, you can use other kinds of similar energy structures, like ley lines, ogham stones, etc, but you can't just slap them down anywhere.) No wards on Harry's office in the books for that reason.
The office doesn't have a whole hell of a lot of "home" energy around it. Virtually none. I mean, a hotel room would have more. Harry could probably sling up some kind of tripwire-rings-a-bell equivalent ward, if he wanted to, but even that would be tricky and he has better ways to spend his time and effort.
However. To repeat something I have SAID OVER AND EFFING OVER, THE TV SHOW IS NOT THE SAME THING AS THE BOOK. NOR SHOULD IT BE.
I mean, Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to type that? OF COURSE, if you PERSIST in basing every evaluation of the show by the yardstick of "how close is it to the books" it isn't going to measure up terribly well.
This is very nearly as frustrating as reading these huge disappointed reviews of the Codex Alera because "they aren't like the Dresden books at all." Which is exactly true. The Alera books are TERRIBLE Dresden novels. Apples make AWFUL oranges. DUH!
Rant, rant, rantity rantrantrant!
Jim
Since we are asking questions, Ghosts are destroyed by Dawn, and other creatures of the nevernever can also be wipped by dawn (I think Dresden mention in SF that he dawn would handle the frog demon, but that it was to far away).
It's explained in the books that creatures from the nevernever grab materia from the nevernever to build their bodies in the real world, even the phages in PG turns to slime after Harry destroy them in Splattercon!!!
So, how would the fae handle the dawn if they got caught on it? Shouldn't it disrupt the their conection to the nevernever and sending they back there? Or are they only weakened like a wizard crossing a threshold?
Exactly what are the Outsiders? Are they like the fae, or are they something else entirely?
They are something else entirely. All the fae are part mortal. There is some bit of mortal in every single one of the fae. The Outsiders are something that comes from way beyond that. Their more the generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles croud.
Fae (like Toot) have mass and dawn does not effect them. (as far as i know) Stronger fae (like Mab or Lea) also seem to have mass BUT they may have had an origin outside of the NN.
The fae that have been effected by dawn do not have bodies or mass (Bob maby others i do not know about).
I thoug about they having mass because their origin was outside the nevernever, but than it hit me, they are older and older than mankind, by the erlking talk in DB I understood that he was running around with the dinousaurs... So whatver migrated from the real world to the nevernever was something older than the dinousaurs.. How that evolved to what they are today is strange.. One would assume that whatever walked there did not have the inteligence the Fae have now a days, so how could two diferent especies, separeted from million years, in two totally diferent ambients are so similar (ok mankind and fae are diferente, but not as much as man kind and dinosaurs for example)..
"Wizard. Called you forth a mighty hunter tonight. One that has not walked this earth since time gone and forgotten."
No, Faries are part mortal, so they have physical bodies. Don't forget that RCV's leave remains when they die too.
No, Faries are part mortal, so they have physical bodies. Don't forget that RCV's leave remains when they die too.
I don't think Erl's comments makes him older than the dino's... He could be, but they aren't confirmation of it. He just recognized that T-Rex hasn't walked the world in a /long/ time.
I happened to have read that last night.
But how are they part mortal, if they were walking around way before mankind showed up? I can swallow that they evolved from the same fish we did, but that got lost and went to nevernever... But then there is the evolution problem we I mentioned in my other post..
It would be very nice to have Mother Winter and Mother Summer for a talkshow with Larry Fowler to clear some of this doubts..
Still he had to know the T-rex was a great hunter... For all we know he could be jus ta big buzzard eating dead dinosaurs..
I got re-read the mothers passage in SK to see if there is any mention about their age..
1. the mothers - how does a queen become a mother? like after a thousand yrs, old winter dies and mab becomes the new mother?
Essentially abdication. The previous mother wearies of her duty and moves along. There's been one new Mother Summer during recorded human history. Mother Winter has never retired.
2) When Harry burried Lasciel's coin (Death Masks); why didn't the wet cement disrupt the circle? Harry broke the Shadowmans circle with a film canister.
But how are they part mortal, if they were walking around way before mankind showed up? I can swallow that they evolved from the same fish we did, but that got lost and went to nevernever... But then there is the evolution problem we I mentioned in my other post...
Keep in mind, the whispers in Harry's mind didn't actually stop due to the empowered steel circle around the coin. Lasciel's shadow was already firmly implanted in his noggin, and just decided to play along with his expectations. She also made it clear more than once that the circle would not block Harry from summoning the coin, either.
Fae are a species that literally grow in size as they grow in influence and power. Their evolution is at least partly due to their use of the Stone Table as a conduit of power and responsibility. They probably did not look human at all before our monkey forefathers descended from the trees, but were probably smart enough to change themselves once they realized how influential we were. Even so, they still retain quite a few non-human traits in their makeup.
Fae are a species that literally grow in size as they grow in influence and power. Their evolution is at least partly due to their use of the Stone Table as a conduit of power and responsibility. They probably did not look human at all before our monkey forefathers descended from the trees, but were probably smart enough to change themselves once they realized how influential we were. Even so, they still retain quite a few non-human traits in their makeup.
Fae are a species that literally grow in size as they grow in influence and power. Their evolution is at least partly due to their use of the Stone Table as a conduit of power and responsibility. They probably did not look human at all before our monkey forefathers descended from the trees, but were probably smart enough to change themselves once they realized how influential we were. Even so, they still retain quite a few non-human traits in their makeup.
This is only known to be true at certain power levels. Past a certain point, size doesn't seem to matter anymore. Lea is described as being taller than Mab, but Mab is more powerful.
Circles stop powers Inside the circle not outside.
Harry [...] could take any action he wanted including break the circle and summon the coin.
Lash whispered to Harry. I have never seen any conclusive proof that Lash was playing along with Harry's expectations about the circle isolating Lasciel.
Keep in mind, the whispers in Harry's mind didn't actually stop due to the empowered steel circle around the coin. Lasciel's shadow was already firmly implanted in his noggin, and just decided to play along with his expectations. She also made it clear more than once that the circle would not block Harry from summoning the coin, either.
What twist has the series taken that even surprised you? I am constantly surprised by the twists and turns.
The whole Lasciel’s coin plot was something I instigated on the spur of the moment back in book 5, and which isn’t over yet. Lots of things happen that aren’t specifically spelled out, but which can be woven into the overstory plot that I’ve been pursuing. I expect new stuff will continue seeping out of my subconscious and prove to fit pretty smoothly into the outline.
Lash stopped whispering (well, playing Rock & Roll) as soon as he empowered the circle at the end of Death Masks. She didn't need to stop; it's not like she was inside the circle, after all. If you don't think that was Lash playing along, what exactly do you think happened?
I remember there being something somewhere about a threshold helping maintain a ward's power, but I'm not sure if that could be within the canon, since I can't find it in my WoJ compilation. Here's the best WoJ I have on the subject.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here.
The way you write this, the prison did nothing except motivate the Shadow to change tatics and pretend it was working. IMO, until Harry built the prison, Lasciel had an active link to her shadow in Harry, and once he built the prison, the link was sort of severed, and the Shadow was severly hampered in it's options of how to influence Harry.
If nothing else, prison actually served as is a concrete choice to reject Lasciel's influence, thus forcing her shadow to utalize much more subtle methods to gain influence over him. But I am going to hold to the idea that making this prison severly limited Lasciel's shadow's influence over him.
5) When was the last time Lasciel had a coin holder? If it was After 197whatever then she could easily have known the song and what it means.
You may be right on that one. But let's compare what Lasciel/Lash was doing before Harry empowered the steel circle (making Harry hear music in his mind) with what Lash did before he willingly used Hellfire in Dead Beat (she made him see and hear Shiela). Even if it did limit her, it certainly didn't limit her to the point that she couldn't make him see/hear stuff. It still seems to me that Lash on her own could have easily kept the music going in Harry's mind, rather than stopping as soon as he empowered the circle. So if she didn't stop because she had to, she must have stopped because she chose to, no?
The runes still glowed with a sullen fire, though it was slowly fading. Tiny, white whisps of wood smoke curled up from it, sharp in my nose. It hadn't ever done that before
What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
My theor on changes ws that since it occured under holy ground, lasciel has a new host in the building. The same person who hired stevie d, most likely.... If a circle could contain the spirit of a fallen then surely the church could. Ergo the armument about the circle working is self contradictory... when lash tricked harry, one of the tricks was to stop sining on cue. And according to michael, all coins leave shadows, allways.Just because the church could does not mean they would. Even if they did put their collected coins in circles they have traitors in the church willing to get them out of the circles fairly easily. Circles can stop magic not a pickaxe.
First, as I said earlier, the mechanics of how this worked are determined by Jim, and he probably worked them out after he finished DM. So they weren't exactly figured out until after the actual prison was "built" and we are theorizing after the fact, so neither of us are likely to be 100% right or wrong.
Lasciel had pretty much zero influence (at least that was described in the books) between Harry erecting the steel ring circle and first using Hellfire in the asault on the blampire lair.
If we consider Harry's dream about his father a pertinant source (it's kinda dubious, considering Harry might have just been halucinating), something (Harry presumes "the demon") had crossed some line that allowed Malcolm to speak to Harry. Implying that until then, Lasciel's shadow couldn't have communicated with Harry without cheating to some degree. (reference chapter 11 of DB, it's too long to quote)
My theor on changes ws that since it occured under holy ground, lasciel has a new host in the building. The same person who hired stevie d, most likely.... If a circle could contain the spirit of a fallen then surely the church could. Ergo the armument about the circle working is self contradictory... when lash tricked harry, one of the tricks was to stop sining on cue. And according to michael, all coins leave shadows, allways.
I had actually thought having a discrete denarian "Shadow" was unique to Harry's predicament because of his imprisoning the coin until Nic directly addressed it in SmF.
That's mean, Serack! Using a Doylist argument in a Watsonian discussion is below the belt! (Please not my tongue is firmly in my cheek).
I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that what you're trying to say here is that cutting of Lash from Lasciel weakened her, and she had to regain her strength before she could influence Harry's senses overtly, and that the amount of Hellfire Harry swings around increases as Lash becomes stronger, giving us a gauge of how strong she is at any given time. The obvious question, of course, is what is Lash using to make herself stronger? I think the only three options are:
1. She becomes stronger as she becomes more familiar with Harry's brain.
2. She becomes stronger as she influences Harry's subconcious.
3. She becomes stronger by tapping into Hellfire, and has to keep the flow slow so as not to fry his brain in the process.
Of the three options, I find option 2 to most aligned with the idea that she can only reveal herself to him after he consciously uses Hellfire. It would make sense that a similar restriction exists on his subconcious, and she's been talking to him, getting him to accept more and more of her help (we know he's kinda a dick, after all, and we know he's been working on turning her at the same time she was working on turning him).
Please let me know if I got your side of the argument right.
I stared at him [Harry's subconcious] and said, "You've been talking to her behind my back."
"For months," he said calmly. "It was only polite. After all, you wanted nothing to do with her."
... I'm not sure the conclusion you're drawing from this evidence makes sense. All we see here is that Lash communicating with Harry "crosses a line" and has consequences. It doesn't say anything about whether the reason she didn't cross the line before was because she didn't have the power to do so (which I think is the point you're trying to make) or because she chose to wait until the optimal time to do so (the argument I'm trying to make). If you believe that Malcolm's appearance is a reaction to Lasciel's actions, then he's there not because she didn't cheat, but rather because she did cheat. I'm sorry, I'm just not following your train of thought here at all. If anything, this evidence supports the idea that she had reasons to choose to wait (Malcolm), rather than the idea that she was helpless to act earlier.
"How many shadows have ever stayed in a host like me for longer than a few weeks, huh? Longer than three years?"
"Never," Lasciel's shadow replied in a near-whisper. "Granted you are unusually stiff-necked, for a mortal. Suicidally so, in fact."
Ok back to the consequenses of the prison. This distinction might be subtle, but I don't think Lasciel's Shadow was weakened by the prison so much as she became very constrained in what options she had for influencing Harry, but that those options expanded as she managed to corrupt him. Origionally I think it likely that her only tool of corruption available was to make Hellfire available to his subconcious. However, it was not until the events of BR that he was in a situation stressfull enough that his subconcious actually used it. This usage is what finally opened him up to her communing with his subconcious.
If I may lend my support, I'd like to point out that Harry's circle was a conscious act of rejection but as Michael (or was Uriel) pointed out, subconsciously Harry wasn't ready to completly give up the temptation, which is why he kept the coin buried instead of turning it over.
From this, we correctly conclude the shadow could not openly defy Harry's act of free will (sealing the coin), but as Harry subconsciously wanted the coin to be available, the Shadow could make Hellfire available to his subconscious. Then, when Harry subconsciouslly used Hellfire, his subconscious became open to temptation. When Harry consciously used Hellfire, his conscious became open to temptation.
If nothing else, prison actually served as is a concrete choice to reject Lasciel's influence, thus forcing her shadow to utalize much more subtle methods to gain influence over him. But I am going to hold to the idea that making this prison severly limited Lasciel's shadow's influence over him.
This is a much better way of saying one of my earlier points :)
My personal theory is that as Harry never took up the coin, he has not had the opportunity to truly cast it aside, so he's the closest thing to a bearer Lasciel has right now, thus, she can whisper at him now that he's taken her out of the circle.
There is certainly something going on about the Denarians that I don't understand because I am unsure how Lasciel could have wispered to Harry in Changes... Jim's answer to AA's question at last years BBB Q&A only served to confuse me further.
My personal theory is that as Harry never took up the coin, he has not had the opportunity to truly cast it aside, so he's the closest thing to a bearer Lasciel has right now, thus, she can whisper at him now that he's taken her out of the circle.
This distinction might be subtle, but I don't think Lasciel's Shadow was weakened by the prison so much as she became very constrained in what options she had for influencing Harry
If I may lend my support, I'd like to point out that Harry's circle was a conscious act of rejection but as Michael (or was Uriel) pointed out, subconsciously Harry wasn't ready to completly give up the temptation, which is why he kept the coin buried instead of turning it over.
From this, we correctly conclude the shadow could not openly defy Harry's act of free will (sealing the coin), but as Harry subconsciously wanted the coin to be available, the Shadow could make Hellfire available to his subconscious. Then, when Harry subconsciouslly used Hellfire, his subconscious became open to temptation. When Harry consciously used Hellfire, his conscious became open to temptation.
So the only way to resist temptation is to first give in to temptation and then change your mind?No, Harry has done just fine resisting the temptation without giving in. But the only way to get the tempter to stop tempting you is to give in. You either give in, or constantly deal with having to resist it. How do you know you won't like it if you don't give it a taste first?
On the gripping hand
Here are two options: you are correct, and lasciel was quitly whispering in his mind by herslef. This cause GS, and now that harry knows he can take actions against it. Or B; i am correct, lasciel has a new host likley somone he knows. Who has now tried to kill himtwice and will be a major adversary in the future. You are Jim... Whic do you write? ;)I totally misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that Lasciel (whisper) was using the old connection from when Harry first picked up the coin instead of Lasciel getting a new holder. My bad ;)
Here are two options: you are correct, and lasciel was quitly whispering in his mind by herslef. This cause GS, and now that harry knows he can take actions against it. Or B; i am correct, lasciel has a new host likley somone he knows. Who has now tried to kill himtwice and will be a major adversary in the future. You are Jim... Whic do you write? ;)
When you look at it like that, it still sounds elegant. It also sounds slow as molasses. If the Fallen is only allowed to offer some sort of boost and has to wait until after the offer is taken before they're allowed to actually tempt the person, how the heck is their success rate usually so good that they get a person to pick up the coin in a few weeks at most?
On the gripping hand, this does align with the idea that forcing someone to pick up a coin won't work, because even after you are forced to pick the coin, you still have to accept the first offer of power without either the Fallen or the Fallen's shadow being allowed to tempt you. Unless, of course, they cheat.
How do you know you won't like it if you don't give it a taste first?
Here are two options: you are correct, and lasciel was quitly whispering in his mind by herslef. This cause GS, and now that harry knows he can take actions against it. Or B; i am correct, lasciel has a new host likley somone he knows. Who has now tried to kill himtwice and will be a major adversary in the future. You are Jim... Whic do you write? ;)
just a thought...Have another inventive intelligent and powerful ally. There's at least one Denarian contributing hellfire to the BC. Of course, Nic, and by extension the majority of the others are only on the same side of the BC in that they're both evil. It's a gamble I personally would be unwilling to take.
Maby it was not the denarians that freed Lasciel from the church. The BC would probably be more than happy to have an inventive intelligent and powerful ally if not totally under their control at least on their side.
I don't think most bearers take that first step of rejection. They probably slip the coin in their pocket and carry it around like a secret treasure. Without that first rejection, they would be open to the full temptation at the start.
No, I think once you touch the coin the Fallen can try to tempt you. It is only following an act of refusal (Harry sealing the coin) that the Fallen is forced to resort to more subtle means.
Free Will
Very old, very long WoJ about free will (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28481.msg1220859.html#msg1220859)
2008 ComicCon Playing God panel Q&A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8lOYZme1Y) @~7:00
How do you come up with the bounds between Characters free will and the Divine Hand?
For the Dresden Files, the whole point of The Almighty positive good forces that are out there is that free will is important and they respect that and you've gotta have it and use it. That's the entire point. They are a force of freedom. And it's the bad guys who are going around doing whatever they can to abrogate free will. So for me, where you draw the line is what defines where good stops and evil starts is by how much you're taking away free will and how much you're enabling it.
2011 Marscon (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22558.msg1004815.html#msg1004815)
Could you explain free will to us from Bob’s perspective?
Free will from Bob’s perspective? Bob thinks free will is a complete illusion, uh, since he doesn’t really have it. Um, it’s a conceit that mortals have to make themselves feel like they can be in control of things. Uh, but really, it doesn’t actually exist, that’s Bob’s take on it. But then again, Bob doesn’t really have free will, he’s sort of…
He said that Lash got it.
Lash isn’t Bob.
Well, no, but he [Bob] said that Lash got, obtained free will.
Yeah, Bob doesn’t have to tell the truth to Dresden! (Laughter) I mean, come on! Bob offered it as a possible explanation, but you know, Bob’s essentially…he’s a theoretician. That’s what he does… ‘Explain this’ , ‘Okay, maybe it was this, I don’t know.’ But yeah, he tries to stay out of the whole, anything like, anything that verges on morality, Bob tries to avoid speaking with any authority on because he doesn’t have any compass himself. It all depends on who actually happens to be in possession of the skull at the time.
2011 Fast Forward, Contemporary Science Fiction interview (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26792.msg1201169.html#msg1201169)
There is a rather long discussion as to what constitutes free will as an element in the back end of this book (Ghost Story). Is what is presented and discussed as a concept, your own philosophy? How did that come about, the idea that free will is making your choices based upon truth.
Right, and in the Dresden Files universe it's a vital component. It's what devides mortals, human beings, from everybody else. Is that we're the ones that have elements of both good and evil inside us, we're the ones who get to chose what to do. And because that's who we are, we make the world around us through those choices. The forces of the universe, these cosmic forces are always ballanced against one another, and we're the ones who can tilt that see-saw one way or another with our actions. I think that is largely true in real life, but it is certainly a very fun, dramatic use of the concept of free will for writing with. It's very important in general, and that's why Harry, as he's gotten more mature, he's striven so much harder to make sure that other people have a choice, you know, he's not trying to make choices for people any more, he's trying to make sure that they know what's going on, and can make an informed choice.
2011 Bitten by Books Q&A (http://www.bittenbybooks.com/45367/author-jim-butcher-guest-appearance-qa-and-contest-live-here/)
Lash was apparently able to gain free will from harry, a mortal. Can mortals potentially grant free will to other supernaturals like vampires and faries?”
That’s… a spectacularly complicated question, really. :)
Lash didn’t gain free will, per se. Lash gained individuality, became a singular entity, self-motivated and distinct from the personality of Lasciel the Fallen. That personality was strongly influenced by Dresden, who believes very strongly in individual choice and responsibility, but doesn’t necessarily equate to free will in the sense of what mortals possess.
You might note that Lash essentially committed suicide with her “free will.” A choice which rather strongly resembles another choice a few books later in the series.
Corruption Isn't Always About Evil
We have a tendency to look at the Laws as things that turn ordinary, nice wizards into MFing Kemmler. So, it's understandable that some players are going to have an issue with the idea of being a Lawbreaker, because they don't really want their character to be an Evil Jackass.
But all we really know, as a baseline, is that breaking the Laws fundamentally changes you somehow. There's a lot of room to decide how you're going to express that change. That's why you don't have to, if you don't want to, worry about intent too much - good intentions can cause corruption just as much as bad ones.
Let's look at another Joe Wizard. This is a young dude, just getting started, who fries a mugger in self-defense because he's afraid. First Law violation, period dot.
But what if we decide the aspect is "Crippling, Massive Guilt"? 'Cause clearly, Joe's not a bad guy, right? No one expects he's going to go from magical self-defense to setting kittens on fire just to listen to them shriek.
However, what could happen is that his guilt keeps him from using his magic, even when its arguably necessary. Even when it could help people and prevent harm. Even when an innocent is being held up by the throat by a loup-garou, and he could save that person, but God, what if something goes wrong? What if he misses? What if he kills another innocent? Better that they die by the loup-garou's hand than his, right? Better he doesn't have it on his conscience, right?
And soon, this Joe Wizard finds himself utterly incapable of risk and sacrifice. His decisions become inherently selfish, all centered around keeping him, at all costs, from having to deal with that guilt again.
How is that not a kind of corruption?
So, keep in mind that you don't have to characterize this process as a descent into blistering, making-soup-with-babies sadism. Anything that people can feel can be taken too far and become destructive.
I thought about those who had fought beside me before. I thought about my friend Michael, whose kid had been the one about to pick up the coin.
I hadn't seen Michael since then. I hadn't called. He'd called me a couple of times, invited me to Thanksgiving dinner a couple times, asked if I was all right a couple of times. I had turned down his invitations and cut every phone conversation short. Michael didn't know that I'd picked up one of the Blackened Denarii, taken possession of a token that could arguably make me a member of the Knights of the Blackened Denarius...
I'd never told him about the coin. I didn't want him to know that I was sharing brain space with a demon. I didn't wnat him to think less of me. Michael had integrity. Most of my adult life, the White Council at large had been sure that I was some kind of monster just waiting for the right time to morph into its true form and start laying waste to everything around me. But Michael had been firmly on my side since the first time we'd met. His unwavering support had made me feel a whole hell of a lot better about my life.
I didn't want him to look at me the way he'd looked at the Denarians we'd fought. So until I got rid of Lasciel's stupid mental sock puppet, I wasn't going to ask him for help.
Heres my idea on why harry resited for years; he has a ridculously strong will combined with a crippling fear of his own power. I seriously doubt the circle ever did anything - it was just harry. Hes that stubborn, and that guilty about the 'death' of elaine- and possibly justin as well. He peter parker y'know. Snarky, shy about women, and would rather stick his hand in a grinder than accept evil power.... Do you tthink most people are like that? I dont. And for another point, i doubt the coins need infromed consent..just consent.
Uhm, Serack and cozarkian, lemme try to return to the original point:
- If I'm understanding your position correctly, you believe there are constraints that limited how Lasciel's Shadow could interact with Harry's conscious mind, particularly between the events at the end of Death Masks and the beginning of Dead Beat. You believe these constraints are the reason why the background Rock & Roll music Harry had been hearing since picking up the coin stopped playing once his conscious mind chose to reject the coin. You believe these constraints are binding enough that Lasciel's Shadow didn't have any way of continuing to play the music, even if it wanted to.
- You then propose that these constraints were loosened by Harry's actions in Blood Rites, namely, his subconscious use of Hellfire. The (elegant) logic behind this belief is that we are told in Dead Beat that his conscious use of Hellfire was required in order to allow Lasciel's Shadow to communicate with Harry's conscious mind. One would expect, then, that Harry's subconscious use of Hellfire would be required in order to allow Lasciel's Shadow to communicate with Harry's subconscious mind.
My questions to you, I'm afraid, remain unanswered, by either you or cozarkian:
- How can the constraints be binding if Lasciel's Shadow managed to "cheat" around them?
- Why did Lasciel's Shadow appear to wait from Blood Rites until Dead Beat before "cheating"?
In all fairness, I did ask a third question that did get answered by both you and cozarkian, namely, how did Lasciel's Shadow fail after three years whereas other Shadows succeed in a few weeks at most (or presumably, fail completely in a shorter span of time). Cozarkian proposed that the temptation process was inherently different from Harry's in most cases, heavily skewed toward the Shadows' favor. When I suggested that such a system didn't seem consistent to me, you replied saying that there's no reason to expect the system to seem fair from our perspective. I can't really argue that point, so I shall concede it.
Still, my two questions above remain unanswered. My proposed answer to them is the following:
- At some point, Lasciel's Shadow was free to act in a certain way and chose to wait until her actions had maximum impact before acting. I believe we can all agree a time period like that existed between Blood Rites and Dead Beat. Just to clarify, by "free to act" I don't mean there would be no consequences for her actions; what I mean is, there were constraints stopping her from acting.
- The idea that Lasciel's Shadow was constrained from acting in a certain way ("cheating") during one time period and then later chose not to act in that exact certain way until a time of her choosing has more moving parts to it than the idea that she just chose to not act in that way ("cheating") until a time of her own choosing from the very beginning. Occam's Razor would suggest that maybe there was never any constraint on her actions in the first place.
- The fact that that it still counted as "cheating" when she finally acted means that she was either unaware that there would be consequences (unlikely) or she believed the consequences were worth it. Meaning, the consequences did not have the power to stop her from cheating at that point in time, which suggests that nothing had the power to stop her from cheating earlier, either. Since the act that has been defined as "cheating" is at the very least the same as playing music, and nothing could stop Lasciel's Shadow from cheating, nothing could stop her from playing music, either.
In other news, both sides seem to agree that the magic empowering the circle in and of itself did absolutely nothing to limit the coin or Lasciel's Shadow. Granted, you believe the act of empowering the circle did limit the access Lasciel's Shadow had to Harry's conscious mind, but at least we agree on something, no?
I think most of these arguments underestimate both lash and harry. why did lash sing at all? To let harry know she was ther. Why stop? To make him think shes gone. Why wait? She was studying him. Why did he resist? Well, why did he resist corpsetaker? Or nico? Or all the other offers? Hes just that stubborn. Hes the hero yall ;)
I left the cookout without saying good-bye, and headed home. I heard something the whole time, something wispering almost inaudibly. I drowned it out with loud and off-key singing, and got to work.
Ten hours later, I put down the excavating pick and glowered at the two-foot hole I had chipped in my lab's concrete floor. The whispering in my head had segued into "Sympathy for the Devil" by the stones.
"Harry," whispered a gentle voice.
I dropped the coin into the hole. I slipped a steel ring about three inches across around it. I muttered to myself and willed energy into the ring. The whispering abruptly cut off.
I dumped two buckets of cement into the hole and smoothed it until it was level with the rest of my floor. After that I hurried out of the lab and shut the door behind me.
A ring of plain silver was set into the floor - my summoning circle. Underneath it lay a foot and a half or so of concrete, and then another heavy metal box, wrapped with its own little circle of wards and spells. Inside the box was a blackened silver coin.
The singing i refered too was the rolling stones.
I think she was taking time to move in, was concerned about the possibility of getting evicted by a greater power (such as mab) and decided to lay low and be subtle. Lash had to be aware that mab was chasing him at this point.
Firstly, Id! Harry (is the ! necessary? I saw you using it I think) said that he had been communicating with the shadow for a few months.
So in attempting to directly answer your questions, the best I can do is that the Shadow was constrained from offering true corrupting power to Harry but "cheated" by building rapport with his concious mind as Shela before he conciously accepted power (Hellfire) from her. The pushing the envelope was only available to her because of his subconciously accepting the power (and his subconcious communicating with her in the time since), and she chose to pull that card dispite the consequences of "crossing the line" because she saw that he was undergoing some stressful situations that were likely to cause him to embrace the Hellfire she managed to offer his subconcious, and would thus give her lots of opportunities to offer him tantalizing power through the course of the events of DB.
[...]
The thing is, the story goes through a lot of trouble to describe how there were lines and limits on what the shadow could do (Ref, the 2 dream sceens, 1 with Malcome, the other with the shadow and hot tub. Interesting the symbolism in that in the Malcolm dream Harry was cold and uncomfortable, and Malcolm allowed him to mix his own Coffee to warm up... compared to Harry waking up in a luxurious hot tub he had never experienced before.) Your Occam's Razor argument is not strong enough for me to just throw away all that world building effort.
To me, those two statements are completely contradictory... My conceptualization of DV magic is the altering of reality with your will. So in those terms Harry's empowering the circle was a willful alteration of Lasciel's ability to influence him. Thus it was a sucessful magical spell, not an empty gesture that did absolutely nothing.
The true hurdle she had to overcome was not external to Harry. It was Harry's own stuborness. The singing is no evidence otherwise since it wasn't Lasciel/Lasciel's shadow doing it. Rather the fact that the wispering was a constant preasure that required the singing to drown it out until the spell cut it off is evidence that the spell was an effective way of exercising this stuborness in a way that severly limited Lasciel's influence over him.
The difference between what you say and what Ms. Duck is saying is that you believe that Harry's stubbornness somehow makes some of Lasciel's Shadow's options no longer available by reason of being impossible, while she (and I) believe his stubbornnes makes some of her options no longer available by reason of being dumb/counterproductive instead.
(Apologies to Ms. Duck if I misunderstood her.)
The singing i refered too was the rolling stones. I think she was taking time to move in, was concerned about the possibility of getting evicted by a greater power (such as mab) and decided to lay low and be subtle. Lash had to be aware that mab was chasing him at this point.
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
Using and abusing memes amuses me. This one in particular comes from fanfiction websites.
I agree with you, by definition, Occam's Razor is never a strong argument. It's more of a gut check than anything, namely "Am I adding this complexity because it makes sense with the evidence available, or am I adding this complexity because it appeals to me in some way?"
Basically, I believe there's two questions; we agree on one, but disagree on the other:
1. Why did Lasciel's Shadow wait from the actions of Blood Rites (or whenever Id!Harry started talking to her, makes no difference) until the actions of Dead Beat before "cheating"?
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
- Your answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage (or as you put it, "[...]she chose to pull that card dispite the consequences of "crossing the line" because she saw that he was undergoing some stressful situations[...]").
2. Why did Lasciel's Shadow not "cheat" from the moment Harry empowered the circle until the actions of Blood Rites (or whenever Id!Harry started talking to her, makes no difference)?
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
- Your answer: empowering the circle somehow makes cheating impossible for her until Harry's actions in Blood Rites.
You gotta admit, it's a little out of left field. To use a word I used previously, it seems inconsistent (I know, there's no reason to believe Lasciel's Shadow would follow fair rules, but there you go).
To me, those two statements are completely contradictory... My conceptualization of DV magic is the altering of reality with your will. So in those terms Harry's empowering the circle was a willful alteration of Lasciel's ability to influence him. Thus it was a sucessful magical spell, not an empty gesture that did absolutely nothing.
I have Doylist issues with this assertion, rather than Watsonian ones. You make it sound like the only reason Harry managed to cut the Shadow off from his conscious mind was because he'd been trained in the art of focusing his will to alter reality (A.K.A. magic). I want the aesop to be "Harry resisted Lasciel's Shadow because he's a good man"; I don't want the fantastic aesop to be "Harry resisted Lasciel's Shadow because he can do magic". I believe this is what Ms. Duck means by saying we are underestimating Harry.
(From a Watsonian perspective, we know one can renounce a coin without magic, since Sanya did it. So, I guess I have Watsonian issues with it, too.)
In the previous novels, Butcher has painted Dresden into a really dark corner with his increasingly facile use of the demon’s power. Meanwhile, point by point, Butcher has unfolded the laws of magic in his universe. That led me to expect a very Qabalistic resolution of the Demon haunting problem, but that wasn’t Butcher’s plan.
White Night ends with a resolution of the problem of the Demon shadowing Dresden. I pointed out to him during this interview that the ending of White Night really wasn’t a fulfillment of the Worldbuilding he had done. And I asked what principle of magic he used to solve the problem.
He answered not by referring to the principles of magic built into his world, but by referring to a writing principle. He went to the basic-traits list of the character sketch for Harry Dresden.
One precious gift that has emerged as central is Harry’s gift for empowering others. He lives a daily struggle to master control of his own Power – and though he hasn’t succeeded, he has become strong, and a catalyst of strength.
In fact, the Dresden Files series is about Power, its danger, use and abuse.
Butcher explains that Lashiel’s Shadow has the potential for Darkness but Harry is used to handling Dark Power. By refusing to give in to Lashiel’s attempt to seduce him with Power, and change him, Dresden reversed the force back upon her and she changed instead.
As to why the shadow, it probably is part of the rules. I doubt a mortal mind can withstand direct contact, thus abrogating the freedom of choice.
As I see it, the weakness in your answer is that it seems common knowledge (the Knights, Nic) that nobody ever resists a shadow more than a few weeks before taking up a coin, yet Harry seems to have had no such issue/conflict between DM and DB (about one whole year). If Lash was able to, you'd think she would have started building "Sheila's" persona a whole lot earlier - to use at the appropriate moment.
"Tessa chooses their hosts from among the downtrodden, the desperate, those who believe that they have nothing to lose. Those who will succumb to temptation the most rapidly."
I grunted. “Lot of those around in the wake of a big nasty plague. Or any kind of similar chaos.”
“Yes. We believe that it is one reason she collaborates with Nicodemus from time to time.”
“She’s focused on short-term,” I said, getting it. “He’s all about the long view.”
“Exactly,” Michael said. “When he threw Lasciel’s coin at my son, it was a calculated gesture.”
“Calculated to rope me in,” I said.
“You,” Michael said, “or my son.”
“Oh, I picked the right coin for you.” He started to walk in a slow circle around me, the way you might a car at the dealership. “There are rumors that a certain Warden has been flinging Hellfire at his foes. How do you like it?”
“I’d like it better if it came in Pine Fresh and New Car instead of only Rotting Egg,” I said.
Nicodemus completed his circuit of me and arched an eyebrow. “You haven’t taken up the coin.”
“I would, but it’s in my piggybank,” I said, “and I can’t break the piggy, obviously. He’s too cute.”
“Lasciel’s shadow must be slipping,” Nicodemus said, shaking his head. “It has had years to reason with you, and still you refuse our gifts.”
“What with the curly little tail and the big, sad brown eyes,” I said, as if he hadn’t said anything.
One of his heels hit the ground with unnecessary force, and he stopped walking. He inhaled through his nose and out again. “Definitely the proper coin for you.”
To Harry everything is a spell. (The DFRPG and I think WoJ refer to this as, "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail") Don't forget how the books pontificate on the amount of magic in a baby's laugh, and an entire stadium shouting "HAY!" after that silly tune. In otherwords, you may be putting too much emphasis on Harry's training to interpret my claims about his isolating himself from the coin's influence with magic. From certain perspectives there probably is something magical about Sanya throwing his coin into a canal.
{Harry} How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for more than a few weeks, huh? Longer than three years?
{Lash} Never.
Look at the type of people the Denarians usually go for:
That's bound to skew the average considerably. Look at Nicodemus' reaction in the same book:
On the one hand, he acts somewhat surprised that Lasciel's shadow hasn't managed to tempt him yet. But it's an "huh, that's odd" level of surprise not a "that's impossible" level of surprise (such as he'll show just a little later in the book). We know/believe Nicodemus thinks long term. He naturally expects that even if Harry picks up the coin, he won't instantly grow a goatee, but rather try to keep it hidden from his allies as long as possible. He never bothered looking for Harry again after giving him the coin, so clearly, his plans did not require/expect Harry taking up Lasciel right this instant.
I suspect Lasciel's Shadow was smart enough to realize she had no real hurry to corrupt Harry, and knew that if she wasn't subtle enough about it, Michael and Co. would do everything in their power to oppose her. Discretion was the better part of valor, that's all. Heck, we know/believe Lasciel and Anduriel don't get along. From Nicodemus' reaction above I would hazard the thought Nick thought Lasciel was taking her time just to be contrary (just like Harry is).
Hm, let's use another example that's also from the books: what Harry calls "Old World Rules". Let's pick one specific one: keeping your promises. We know that Fae have to keep their word. We know that a wizard who makes a promise upon his power has to keep his word, or his own magic will attack him. Someone like Lara Raith, on the other hand, is free to go against her word. However, she never does, and whenever Harry suggests to her that she could, she looks at him as though he suddenly started talking an alien language. She's not constrained from breaking her word by any power or magic like the Fae are, but her own upbringing / self-interest make the idea basically impossible.
I want to believe the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where Sanya bears the Sword of Hope because he's the kind of guy that laughs when Rosanna tries to tempt him once again. I don't like thinking that the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where the Sword of Hope needs to protect Sanya from Rosanna's new temptation (I'm willing to accept a world that's a little of both, of course; shades of gray ftw).
A world where Lasciel's shadow is constrained by Harry enclosing the coin in a circle in the same way a Fae is constrained to keep its word has less appeal to me than a world where Harry enclosing the coin in a circle constrains Lasciel's Shadow the same way Lara Raith is constrained to keep her word.
Thrice I ask and done: which is the one your theory is describing?
(I admit, I've been wanting to say that for a while)
Dont worry then lash will be back;) just not for a long while i suspect..she knows too much.
She's already back as of Ghost Story, and Jim has said that he can't withold the information about "power over Outsiders" from us much longer.
Lash is confirmed to have appeared in Ghost Story by WoJ, same goes for Lasciel.
I'd love to see that WoJ...
Are we ever going to see Lash again?
She’s actually mentioned in Ghost Story although not by name. Her story isn’t over.
The only way I'd be ok with "Lash" coming back, I think, is if it were in a way that is so devious that it defies imagination.
One theory I've bounced around about it is (Uriel == Lash)
Devious.
This is only known to be true at certain power levels. Past a certain point, size doesn't seem to matter anymore. Lea is described as being taller than Mab, but Mab is more powerful.
Lash was the parasite that kept Harry's heart beating while Demonreach kept his body "fed" and Mab kept him on the porch of death, but not yet through that door.
You're going to have to explain that one because to me that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
No, the theory is that Lasciel is back, not Lash. Personally, I think the end of the Lash storyline was so perfect, so calm and beautiful, that to bring her back would cheapen it to worthlessness.Lash is the only logical candidate for the parasite. We have woj that both are back and mentioned not by name in Ghost Story. At the moment the remnants of Lash live of Harries soul. With just enough power to help keep the body alive, something Lasciel would not do.
I think that's actually been unofficially confirmed, right? Someone got him to say that Lash was the parasite while he was signing their book. 'Course, he could have been using "Lash" and "Lasciel" interchangeably. He's done that before. Or the parasite could be the combined being of Lash and Lasciel, and the Whispering Fallen could have been someone other than Lasciel. Like Anduriel, for instance. He always seemed like a great suspect, since his physical form was just a shadow to begin with, and he did come very close to killing Nicodemus. Nic might have pressured Anduriel into getting rid of Harry, even if it broke a Rule.
Lash is the only logical candidate for the parasite. We have woj that both are back and mentioned not by name in Ghost Story. At the moment the remnants of Lash live of Harries soul. With just enough power to help keep the body alive, something Lasciel would not do.
No, it's the easiest candidate for the parasite. It could be something that's not directly been shown yet, but mentioned. It could be an outsider, and be the reason Harry can harm them the way he does. The parasite could be anything.
I think that's actually been unofficially confirmed, right? Someone got him to say that Lash was the parasite while he was signing their book. 'Course, he could have been using "Lash" and "Lasciel" interchangeably. He's done that before. Or the parasite could be the combined being of Lash and Lasciel, and the Whispering Fallen could have been someone other than Lasciel. Like Anduriel, for instance. He always seemed like a great suspect, since his physical form was just a shadow to begin with, and he did come very close to killing Nicodemus. Nic might have pressured Anduriel into getting rid of Harry, even if it broke a Rule.
I was also at the ATL booksigning. When he signed my book, I asked him directly if Lash was the Parasite or the shadow. Shockingly, I got a direct answer.link (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27769.msg1188268.html#msg1188268)
She is the Parasite
If the whispering shadow was Lash, then Lash didn't have Harry killed--Harry had himself killed.
Remember, the seven words didn't include, "Then kill yourself." They were a guilt trip, probably meant to make Harry seek power--if Lash is whispering, then she'd have preferred said power be Lasciel, but another source of power (that would heal Harry) would also help ensure Lash's and Harry's survival.
The shadow is lasciel , i believe in a new host. Lash is the parasite. This has been i believe confirmed by jim. (not the new host part). Also let slip by Jim is there is a conection between maggie sr and the black court, and that they will be showing up soon. As to lash herslef, she knows what the black court is up too.. Not nec the outsiders. Rember her last words in wn? Shes taking a nap until after jim does his big blampire amry reveal ;)
But we know-- or, at least, Uriel has led Harry to believe-- that the Whisperer intended for its words to convince Harry to kill himself. According to what Uriel said, the Whisperer knew exactly how Harry would react, and it said what it did, when it did, to trigger a suicidal reaction. That was supposedly how the Whisperer cheated, and the fact that it cheated was the reason that Harry was allowed to return to Earth in the first place. This chain of events seems to disprove the "Lash screwed up" theory.I'd have to reread the relevant passages, but I got the impression that the whispered words were meant to push Harry into becoming the Winter Knight rather than to suicide.
No ureil is the one who told him to be wk methinks. Lasciel tried to kill him three times in that book i believe: once on the ladder, once with the words, and a third time with stevie d. Shes one ticked off chickie.How was Lash responsible for the ladder? Also, and I know you'll never agree, but the words made Harry become the Winter Knight, not that they got him dead.
How was Lash responsible for the ladder? Also, and I know you'll never agree, but the words made Harry become the Winter Knight, not that they got him dead.
Yep. And it was ureils 'what you do for love' speach thatb signed the deal. As to the ladder, its just an assumption, but a valid one. knights show up to opose fallen, not before, meaning lasciel acted first.
The words the Whisperer said got him dead-- he would have become the Winter Knight with or without them. We know this because did become the Winter Knight without them, after Molly erased his memory.He had made the decision, even if he didn't remember why he made that decision. But before he heard the words, it was hopeless, there was nothing he could do. It was only after he was told it was all his fault was he willing to take that extra step.
He had made the decision, even if he didn't remember why he made that decision. But before he heard the words, it was hopeless, there was nothing he could do. It was only after he was told it was all his fault was he willing to take that extra step.
But again, we've gone and done this over and over, nobody's getting their minds changed.
Well, then why bring it up?Mostly because I'm incapable of just letting something so wrong (or so I think, obviously) become the standard accepted opinion without saying something about it, really.
knights show up to opose fallen, not before, meaning lasciel acted first.That is...not really at all how the Knights work. They are not constrained to only acting and showing up when the Denarians act first--if they were, Molly would be dead, and Harry with her.
They are certianly allowed to act to opose supernatural evil, but they play defense. Thats the whole point of the discussion with micheal in smf.. Harry wanted to go on offense and micheal said no. Being sent on a mission, with divine guidance, to save two people from a purely natural fire is not how they work. And in PG, there is plenty of evidence at least one fall..namshiel..was very much invlved.
He had made the decision, even if he didn't remember why he made that decision. But before he heard the words, it was hopeless, there was nothing he could do. It was only after he was told it was all his fault was he willing to take that extra step.There were two decisions. The one about going to Mab and the one about killing himself.
But again, we've gone and done this over and over, nobody's getting their minds changed.
That is rather... oblique.
I think it is a stretch to say that a fallen was certainly involved when Michael killed Sithorax, and Michael was still exhibiting some pretty strong patronage (that is, he seemed to be on the clock) when he pulled some pretty interesting tricks without the sword in GP.
Also, Murph was undeniably on the clock as a knight when an archangel sock puppeted her at Chicken Pizza in Changes, and I didn't see any fallen around then either.
Point being, I doubt fallen involvement is absolutely necessary for a knight to be on the clock. Of course I also doubt I may sway you on the matter.
Mostly because I'm incapable of just letting something so wrong (or so I think, obviously) become the standard accepted opinion without saying something about it, really.
The seven words weren't about becoming the WK or killing himself, they were about becoming the WK AND killing himself. Both decisions were made at once.
The whisper was to guarantee his death by having him arrange his death, he would have become Winter Knight regardless of the whisper.
but somehow I still suspect lasciel made harry trip off that ladderDidn't something in the building explode and knock the ladder down, rather than Harry just tripping?
Didn't something in the building explode and knock the ladder down, rather than Harry just tripping?
i dont remeber off the top of my head. any of the above would be easy for a fallen shadow to arainge.
The whisper was to guarantee his death by having him arrange his death, he would have become Winter Knight regardless of the whisper.And yet, no. There was no mention or thought of becoming the Winter Knight before the whisper. He had given up, and thought he was all out of ideas, before the whisper happened.
That is true. Though my read of it is that he was considering her for information more than power, and I maintain that he had given up before the whisper.
I think the whisper didnt change the WK decision, it convinced him to punish himself afterwards.
Beg pardon, but he was considering it specifically in the scene in the lab prior to claling ivy. she told him to contact marcone first
as to the shadow- lasciel. I consider lash to be the parasite
You may be right, but based on the evidence, we can only conclude that the Whisper pushed him into both decisions. The phrasing of the whisper was to show that he was weak and a failure, but the decision to kill himself only came as part of concluding that he would have to accept becoming a monster. He had to make both decisions together.
Even if you argue that Molly's memory monkeying gave him a chance to make the same choice again, he took much longer to come to that conclusion, weighed his options and finally arrived at the same point. The whisper was probably aware of that, but it needed to push Harry into both decisions to get him to commit suicide. Harry wouldn't just kill himself. He'd make his life worth something first, make his death worthwhile. All I'm saying is that Harry needed to decide the one along with the other.
The prhasing of the whisper was for him to feel guilty, like he is not good enough. Forcing him to belive that he will probally fail again after he becomes WK and turn in to a monster. And because of that belive he had to kill himself.
I am not sure I am convinced by that argument. Consider that Harry is lying there, spine broken. His daughter is going to die in a few hours and his grandfather along with her (as well as a possible strike against the WC, and others he loves and cares about).
His options:
1. Lie down and do nothing.
2. Find some way to heal himself and try to save her, even if its a suicide run.
Given Harry's previous actions (assault on AT, hiring Kincaid without knowing how to pay him, etc.), which option do you think he would choose?
I don't disagree with you at all, but my point is that he had to decide both together, or he'd never have decided to kill himself. Harry wouldn't kill himself without having some way he might succeed. Whenever he's decided to kill himself in the past, there was either a glimmer of hope or at least the impression he could accomplish something. To decide to kill himself, he had to decide to become the Winter Knight, since she couldn't hope to trick a Denarian into letting him die, nor could he undo the deaths that would be needed for a dark hallow. Mab is demonstrably fallable, which made her the logical choice.
The whisper pushed both actions at once, probably with the ultimate goal of convincing him to kill himself, but, counter to what Peregrine said, it was not just the one action.
I desagree, Harry knew he woudl have to go for power from Mab or another source he didn't like, he alredy had that decided. What he didn't know is what he would do to avoid becoming a monster after that.
It's like this:
I need power, I'll have to take Mab's offer, but and after? What I'm gona do? Well it's all my fault, so I'll just suicide and avoid becoming a monster.
This whisper triggered how he was going to do his deal, not the deal itself.
Okay. End result is the same, in either case. I just think the road to get there also appears to have varied between the two times that he came to the decision.
I see the road like this, Harry in the top of the empire state. He has to get down there. (Get down there is the decision to grab power from Mab). Now how's hes gona get down there? (What he's gona do after he becomes the WK) So, normally he would take the stairs (longer and harder way), but because of the whisper he decide he will just jump.. (Quick and "easy" way out) (Plus stupid).
So there are two decision he has to make, I don't see the whispering affecting the first one, only the second.
See, the second time, he tried to use a hang glider affectionately named Uriel first. The first, after the whisper, he didn't even consider his hang glider.
Nop, the second time it was more like: Maybe I don't need to get down there, I can ask to the archangel to bring the ground up here.
Asking Uriel is trying to make a diferent first decision (where to get power from), it does not alter the second (how to avoid becoming a monster)..
It's your metaphor. Either way, he didn't even consider it the first time around. That's my point.
To use your analogy, without the shadow, harry decided to turn around and run up the down escalator as hard as he can. He may go down, but it will be fighting hard every step.
The Whisperer caused Harry to lose his last shred of hope. I think maybe it's as simple as that. With his memory gone, that shred of hope was still there, so Harry called Uriel to confirm the status of his injury, and hopefully to get a solution to his problems that didn't involve going to Mab. It was thin, but it was his last possible option before he was left with nothing better than Mab.
I think Uriel actually increased Harry's hope, though, by telling him that if he did it for love, there might be a way back from whatever happened to him as the Winter Knight. So Harry called Mab.
After the Whisperer spoke to him, though, Harry no longer believed he even deserved something better, much less that it was possible. So he went to the Winter Knight option without the hope of being able to redeem himself from what Mab was going to do to him. That made killing himself before Mab could get her hands on him seem like the best option.
-- Actually, now that I think about it, what the Whisperer accomplished was something more tangible than that, something so friggin' obvious that I can't believe it hasn't been thought of already(including by me, until just this moment): the seven words steered Harry away from calling Uriel. I mean... duh, right? With his memory erased, Harry acted as he would have acted without the Whisperer's comment, which was to call Uriel and ask for help. Uriel didn't give him any solid help, but he did give Harry hope. Scratch my original argument-- I think it was correct in way, just not in the way I originally thought. Harry didn't have much hope left, other than Uriel, so he called Uriel, and the archangel gave him hope for his future. Without that, Harry would have moved on to the suicide option.
I think that's it. Put simply, the Whisperer threw Harry off of his natural course of calling Uriel. Which led to him committing suicide, yes, but only as a natural side-effect of being forced to become the Winter Knight, without also having hope for redemption from being the Winter Knight. It wasn't a question of whether or not he would become the WK, though; I think that was always going to happen.
See, I'm refering to the route, not the result. The whisper altered his route as well as the result.
Yeah, but I think the two are not independent. Altering the route caused the change in result, because a route that didn't include a chat with Uriel led straight and only to suicide after becoming the Winter Knight. Uriel was what gave Harry the hope for a future.
The difference in what Harry does first seems odd, if you focus on the Winter Knight thing vs. the suicide thing(it did to me too, until a few minutes ago), because why wouldn't he have tried to call Uriel both times? But if the primary difference in Harry's decision tree was simply that the Whisper made him feel like such a shit that he didn't deserve to call on Uriel, then the rest of what happened falls naturally from that fact. Without Uriel, suicide; with Uriel, no suicide.
It's one of the mysteries of the book. Harry remembers everything up until he uses the knife (may God forgive him). He's got missing time from that point until it's almost dawn. Considering the powers at play in that location during that time, some of our local theory-weavers have proposed that a deal or two may have taken place in that time period. Since Harry didn't think to check his memories while he had perfect recall as a ghost, we probably won't find out for a while.
The whisper didn't change the route, it just added the step of calling Kincaid.
Whisper thought: I'll call Uriel first, but he won't be able to help, so I'll call Mab and turn into a monster. I need to make sure I am stopped before that happens. Calls Molly in to help.
After-whisper thought: I'll call Uriel first, but he won't be able to help, so I'll call Mab and turn into a monster. Calls Uriel.
Harry wasn't going to skip calling Uriel, he was just being realistic because he knew Uriel wouldn't help. And if by some miracle, Uriel did help, when Molly found out he wasn't the WK, she would have given the memory back so Harry could call off the hit. In fact, the hit was on the new WK, so if Harry didn't become the WK, Kincaid wouldn't have shot him (it's not unreasonable to think Kincaid would have a way of learning whether Harry actually became the WK).
Uriel looked at me and smiled faintly. "It added enough anger, enough self-recrimination, even guilt, and enough despair to your deliberations to make you decide that destroying yourself was the only option left to you. It took your freedom away."
He never reasoned that he would call Uriel after the whisper. It was only when the whisper was taken away that he arrived at that decision. I just reread the entire scene and Uriel isn't mentioned once after the whisper. It is only in the memory without the whisper that Uriel comes up.
Based on that quote, its pretty clear that Uriel believes the only real change was the suicide. I'll defer to his judgement since my argument was all about nuance.I disagree--he used the word "destroy," not "kill." Harry felt that becoming the Winter Knight would destroy him--destroy Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, the man he had been and replace it with a monster. He chose to avoid that destruction by dying. There's a distinction there that needs to be made.
I disagree--he used the word "destroy," not "kill." Harry felt that becoming the Winter Knight would destroy him--destroy Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, the man he had been and replace it with a monster. He chose to avoid that destruction by dying. There's a distinction there that needs to be made.
I disagree--he used the word "destroy," not "kill." Harry felt that becoming the Winter Knight would destroy him--destroy Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, the man he had been and replace it with a monster. He chose to avoid that destruction by dying. There's a distinction there that needs to be made.
See... that's about the argument I'd been making and I had just about given up. I also think that nuance is important.
Does not change the fact that the whisper didn't push him to accept the WK mantle, only how to deal with it.
I guess in hindsights the grey council removed the metacapacitors that were meant to be used (they find the base that leads to mexico from the records) or tried to remove as much of the evidence as they could (or arrange for the captives to find a way home. The kid got plenty of sleep, though I wonder why she chose that after narrowly escaping the sacrificial blade that claimed her mother and the one the red king and arianna planned to use (the one that susan smashed. arianna never got to use it because Harry killed her before she got her shot). But the reds still left a shitload of corpses behind after the battle. I guess big red and the rest of the really conspicuous ones would have been burned
Wan't there a mention in Changes about how mortal authorities found all the bodies and conspiracy theories abound about what happened in Chichen Itza in the Dresdenverse?But nothing about giant birds. The kenku must have evacuated their own dead.
But nothing about giant birds. The kenku must have evacuated their own dead.
And all the weapons old and modern. All the jewelry and strange personal possessions. Some cleanup was certainly done but the mess was so big that not everything could be dealt with.
Do we know that the kenku would have left a body? Fae leave a body behind, but many other creatures of the Never Never do not and just leave a puddle of ectoplasm. The Kenku may be like this.
Their blood didn't turn into Ectoplasm, why would the rest of them? And who says they're creatures of the Nevernever?Even if they are. Faeries leave bodies too. Red vampires also.
Their blood didn't turn into Ectoplasm, why would the rest of them? And who says they're creatures of the Nevernever?
Monoc Industries must have a division dedicated to cleaning up supernatural evidence.
Wonder who's paying that bill?
OK, I am reading the series for the second time and have a couple of questions.
1) Why did agent Benn's Hexbelt turn to goo (Fool Moon), everyone elses had to be burned?
2) When Harry buried Lasciel's coin (Death Masks); why didn't the wet cement disrupt the circle? Harry broke the Shadowmans circle with a film canister.
Thanks
Per (Dead Beat):
"She never got it. In that single second of uncertainty, Corpsetaker had been relying upon her disguise to defend her, and had her mind bent upon planning her next step-not preparing her death curse. The bullet from my.44 hit her just over her right cheekbone."
when harry and susan look through the records the items include a dagger, a sword, a brick and a vase. assuming that the dagger is the one big red used than where were the other artifacts and what were they used for? When Harry is in the chamber he sees the big altar in the centre, and that alone is enough to impress bob.
Okay fair enough; but why a vase and a brick? Given that the mayans had jaguar shaped altars I think they procured that through possessing them, and i suppose the brick and vase could have been used to release the energyPerhaps it's a link to the four elements instead of something Mayan specific? Brick represents earth, vase is water, and dagger/sword go to fire/air in some combination. I want to say that Harry has done something similar when he was setting up ritual magic before.
Perhaps it's a link to the four elements instead of something Mayan specific? Brick represents earth, vase is water, and dagger/sword go to fire/air in some combination. I want to say that Harry has done something similar when he was setting up ritual magic before.
Except those are the Greek classical elements. I don't know what the classical elements are in Mayan belief, if they even had any.True, I'm just shooting in the dark. I was going for an analogy with the elements from Harry's pendant. The spirit element was provided by the human sacrifices. Do you think Harry goes off a Greek based magic system then?