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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: dspringer1 on July 17, 2017, 08:55:53 PM
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The plot of Mirror Mirror sounds like a good story idea, but it also sounds like a great way to give Harry advance notice of information about his own world that he would otherwise not know. It gives him an edge in future books.
Example #1: What if Harry got involved (during mirror mirror) with the government agency focused on the supernatural. He would find out some of their leaders, some contact information, locations and maybe who their local "man" on the street is -- which by the way I think is Stallings... :)
Then in some future book, Harry can just call their chief of operations by name and number and demand assistance. He gets to freak them out (how did he know???), give off all sorts of "I am a wizard and I have mysterious sources of knowledge" vibes and get some great verbal moments. Something similar to when he messed with one of the einjaren at Marcone's place at the end of Skin Game -- using knowledge he gained as a ghost in Ghost Story.
Alternatively, Harry can find out some secret about his companions. Maybe one is sick or has an unusual relative.
Alternately, Harry can identify one of his companions as nemfected, with obvious implications.
Any other good opportunities for Harry to gain knowledge in Mirror Mirror in order to look Bad-Ass Wise in later books back in his own world?
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Maybe one is sick or has an unusual relative.
Alternately, Harry can identify one of his companions as nemfected, with obvious implications.
Like what the 'something significant about Justine's background that Thomas knows but Harry doesn't' actually is.
Though with divergent histories, it's possible for someone to be N-fected in one universe but not the other.
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Though with divergent histories, it's possible for someone to be N-fected in one universe but not the other.
^This. Any "knowledge" gained in the other world may not have a direct read across to Harry's own world.
Assuming the world itself is the same (i.e. the sky is blue, grass is green, magic and physics all works as advertised, Chicago is, well, Chicago) the only way we'll know something is different in the mirror world is when we see a known character acting out of character compared to Harry's reality.
What we won't know is whether they are acting differently because of different choices made/circumstances in the mirror realm, or because in Harry's world they're covert whereas in the mirror realm they are overt in their actions/alignment.
And as dspringer1 says, just because Michael is N-fected in the mirror world, doesn't mean he is in Harry's regular reality, any more than if he's got a broken leg in the mirror world you'd expect to see him in a cast when Harry returns to his regular time and place. (PS Michael's N-fection was a for-instance... not some crazy tinfoil hat WAG!)
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The plot of Mirror Mirror sounds like a good story idea, but it also sounds like a great way to give Harry advance notice of information about his own world that he would otherwise not know. It gives him an edge in future books.
I'm pretty sure that's the point of the book in the overall plot-arc. My guess would be that he finds out what's really up with the so-called Black Council, who's a member and what they think they want.
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Yup - parallel worlds are not proof. But they probably give enough info such that Harry can investigate and confirm things on his own one way or another.
Comment on Justine is not known to me. Where do we get the hint that Justine has some hidden background? Not surprised, just not familiar with the details.
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Comment on Justine is not known to me. Where do we get the hint that Justine has some hidden background? Not surprised, just not familiar with the details.
Im not aware of anything like that either? I distantly recall somebody tossing out a theory that Justine and Charity might be related due to vague similarities in their backgrounds (ie wealthy, overbearing parents).
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Comment on Justine is not known to me. Where do we get the hint that Justine has some hidden background? Not surprised, just not familiar with the details.
I don't have the source anymore, just going off a vague recollection. Might have been one of the AMA's, but I'm not positive.
The WOJ itself wasn't super specific. The gist was just that there's something about Justine's parentage that Harry doesn't know but Thomas does - it didn't narrow down whether she was a changeling or her parents were some sort of VIP's in mortal society or something else entirely.
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I think there will be some information on Marcone that Harry isn't aware of based on what Jim has said. Harry is very guilty I think about the Red Court, and Susan. He might see things in this reality that make him realize that the alternative was much worse.
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I think there will be some information on Marcone that Harry isn't aware of based on what Jim has said. Harry is very guilty I think about the Red Court, and Susan. He might see things in this reality that make him realize that the alternative was much worse.
I certainly hope so.
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I think there will be some information on Marcone that Harry isn't aware of based on what Jim has said. Harry is very guilty I think about the Red Court, and Susan. He might see things in this reality that make him realize that the alternative was much worse.
Oh I'm pretty confident you're right and we will find out some interesting things about Marcone.
Actually the character that's really interesting is the Mirror Mirror universe Marcone, and we'll get to him in a few books.
I think we will also find out some stuff about Mavra since he said this during last year's Reddit podcast:
When are we going to see Mavra again?
Um... 19? *pondering* Wait, I'm sorry we'll definitely see her in Mirror Mirror. She's a fast ally of Dresden's in Mirror Mirror.
I'm in agreement with Zaphodess though in that Mirror Mirror will reveal a lot about the "Black Council" that will then translate into vital intel when Harry gets back to his home reality.
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Oh I'm pretty confident you're right and we will find out some interesting things about Marcone.
*coughcough*Fidelacchius*hackcouch*
Sorry, something in my throat ;)
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I think it would be fun if Harry realized "Cujo" was a sensitive and caring soul as Marone hints at during one of the short stories.
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I think it would be fun if Harry realized "Cujo" was a sensitive and caring soul as Marone hints at during one of the short stories.
Not just sensitive and caring, but HIGHLY educated. I picture one day them all trying to figure out some obscure lore and he busts into the conversation by quoting long passages of Epic Poetry.
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Justine certainly seems like supernatural bait for some reason.
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Justine certainly seems like supernatural bait for some reason.
Goddammit, now I'm imagining her as a MC in a bad Paranormal Romance novel.
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Goddammit, now I'm imagining her as a MC in a bad Paranormal Romance novel.
Only now? Thats more or less how I always imagined days at Casa Wraith.
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Oh I'm pretty confident you're right and we will find out some interesting things about Marcone.
Why? Do you think Mirror Harry went to work for Marcone? It's not like there will be a different Marcone. The split in timelines occurred near the end of book three. Marcone was already Marcone by then.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks everyone else will be so different. Different choices will have been made, but the basic characters will remain.
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Why? Do you think Mirror Harry went to work for Marcone? It's not like there will be a different Marcone. The split in timelines occurred near the end of book three. Marcone was already Marcone by then.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks everyone else will be so different. Different choices will have been made, but the basic characters will remain.
The WoJ again
Actually the character that's really interesting is the Mirror Mirror universe Marcone, and we'll get to him in a few books.
My reading of this is that Jim is implying MM Marcone is not the same character as the standard universe Marcone, and that the differences are "really interesting"
I have very specific, bad ass theories on some of those differences.
As we get closer to MM, I'm going to start using the term MMcone.
Kinda like Harry Yrrah for MM Harry and TTH for time traveling Harry.
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The WoJ again
My reading of this is that Jim is implying MM Marcone is not the same character as the standard universe Marcone, and that the differences are "really interesting"
I have very specific, bad ass theories on some of those differences.
As we get closer to MM, I'm going to start using the term MMcone.
Kinda like Harry Yrrah for MM Harry and TTH for time traveling Harry.
Maybe Marcone not being the same character is because He uses his real name there and not John Marcone eh? then by the laws of naming he wouldn't be the same person at all, just same body and history lol?
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Maybe Marcone not being the same character is because He uses his real name there and not John Marcone eh? then by the laws of naming he wouldn't be the same person at all, just same body and history lol?
Nah, he was using the Name prior to the divergence point, so its at least still part of his history, and by the metaphysics of Naming I think one alias is as good as another.
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Nah, he was using the Name prior to the divergence point, so its at least still part of his history, and by the metaphysics of Naming I think one alias is as good as another.
I won't argue the metaphysics of Naming with you, I'm too tired lol. but is Santa equivalent to Odin or Vadderrung? not in the metaphysical sense.
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I won't argue the metaphysics of Naming with you, I'm too tired lol. but is Santa equivalent to Odin or Vadderrung? not in the metaphysical sense.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I just meant that, per Even Hand, "Marcone" is not his real Name, it's an alias. And we know that the divergence point for the MM was somewhere in GP, meaning by that time He'd already been using the name Marcone. So I dont see how Changing from one Alias to another would change anything, since Mantles are a whole other thing than Names (or at least a much more extreme example*).
*I have a theory that Mantles are what happens when a Name gains enough power to exist independantly without the other 5-6 parts of the Self (like a Body or Spirit). This is based on the Egyptian framework where the Name is one of the primary aspects of the Self right up there with you Chi and Soul and Body, etc (as compared to the 3-part body/spirit/soul model that Bob and Harry were debating).
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I'm saying Marcone the name has all kinds of connections to who he is, even the very inflection of it can change who he is, that's why he always gets erkked at Harry when he calls him john, he's hitting that tiny tuning fork.
The choice to change your name is to try and change your identity associations. If he switched back to his original name he'd effectively be giving up the notion of crime lord Jonny Marcone, his sense of self. He would in effect be a whole different person. A person he gave up on being once before.
*its an effective theory to utilize.
**sweet ambrosia, COFFEE!
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I'm saying Marcone the name has all kinds of connections to who he is, even the very inflection of it can change who he is, that's why he always gets erkked at Harry when he calls him john, he's hitting that tiny tuning fork.
The choice to change your name is to try and change your identity associations. If he switched back to his original name he'd effectively be giving up the notion of crime lord Jonny Marcone, his sense of self. He would in effect be a whole different person. A person he gave up on being once before.
*its an effective theory to utilize.
**sweet ambrosia, COFFEE!
OK , I see where you are going now. If IM reading you correct you are arguing that an alias, if used long enough (or maybe accepted into your identity deep enough) will eventually MAKE said alias into your True Name. I dont think I disagree with that, since Marriage is a thing and Im sure Charity considers her Name to be Carpenter. I guess I think Marcone actually, honestly, still views "Marcone" as a mask he wheres, a character as a defensive wall he needs for survival, rather than his true self. Im basing this off my impressions from Even Hand and off the scene in WN when Harry appealed to his decency rather than his greed or pride or any of the levers he normally willing to knowledge.
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Justine certainly seems like supernatural bait for some reason.
Partly, I think that's a side-effect of her mental condition. Emotions are tied to life-energy and magic in the DV, that's part of why Justine is or was once able to actually benefit from Thomas feeding on her (in moderation).
I have a hunch that a lot of creatures would find Justine's mental state 'appealing'. Which doesn't mean that there are not other reasons, too, of course.
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Partly, I think that's a side-effect of her mental condition. Emotions are tied to life-energy and magic in the DV, that's part of why Justine is or was once able to actually benefit from Thomas feeding on her (in moderation).
I have a hunch that a lot of creatures would find Justine's mental state 'appealing'. Which doesn't mean that there are not other reasons, too, of course.
Im leaning in the other direction, I think we're going to see some unforseen long-term effects of Thomas and Justine's unique relationship. Especially now that they're constantly imparting and unbinding the True Love protections in cycles. Im pretty sure that plus her active "dietician" program for Thomas is going to move the needle of his diet away from Lust.
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Partly, I think that's a side-effect of her mental condition. Emotions are tied to life-energy and magic in the DV, that's part of why Justine is or was once able to actually benefit from Thomas feeding on her (in moderation).
I have a hunch that a lot of creatures would find Justine's mental state 'appealing'. Which doesn't mean that there are not other reasons, too, of course.
Same book she's introduced it talks about what makes someone vulnerable to possession. (heck she pretty much acts possessed) a dozen books later and Thomas has eaten nearly her whole life at one point. She's now cured, but him? perhaps the reason why he's able to change his diet at all is a big eaten gob of Nemfactor from Justine? We've seen heard you are what you eat become mantra here. but what happens to those things that eat Nfection?
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Im leaning in the other direction, I think we're going to see some unforseen long-term effects of Thomas and Justine's unique relationship. Especially now that they're constantly imparting and unbinding the True Love protections in cycles. Im pretty sure that plus her active "dietician" program for Thomas is going to move the needle of his diet away from Lust.
Toward what? The most common alternatives in the Court are fear and despair. I don't know that I would call either an improvement.
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Toward what? The most common alternatives in the Court are fear and despair. I don't know that I would call either an improvement.
The three families of the White Court feed on different emotions, is that like knife, spoon, fork, or can they mix it up?
They can mix it up, and it’s one of the things they fight about a lot, about what they do. There’s all this “you are what you eat” sort of thing in play, and the different houses have different aspects [unintelligible] divide things up by territory. And you could feed on all sorts of stuff. You could probably be a White Court vampire that fed on the warm happy feeling that people get when they’re holding a puppy. Although you’d be a really….you’d probably sparkle if you did that. [Unintelligible] it might actually be fun to show that in some future files.
Hopefully Jim will do this- make Thomas a sparkly vampire.
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Hopefully Jim will do this- make Thomas a sparkly vampire.
LOL - Sacrilege!
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The WoJ again
My reading of this is that Jim is implying MM Marcone is not the same character as the standard universe Marcone, and that the differences are "really interesting"
I have very specific, bad ass theories on some of those differences.
As we get closer to MM, I'm going to start using the term MMcone.
Kinda like Harry Yrrah for MM Harry and TTH for time traveling Harry.
I don't have specific guesses about Marcone, but I believe the different direction that Harry goes in will force other characters; specifically Marcone, to make choices they would never had had to make. This is what will bring about a change in the Marcone. To go back to any earlier post someone made about Harry learning something about Justine; I suppose that's possible, but I think Harry will learn something about Marcone from the Mirror Mirror version and this will help him in the future.
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Vampires don't sparkle.
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Toward what? The most common alternatives in the Court are fear and despair. I don't know that I would call either an improvement.
What forumghost posted. That WOJ implies that it doesnt have to be malevolent emotions, just strong ones. And what he eat's becomes what he inspires. So what if he starts to feed off acts of devotion, or Courage, or even True Love (on the idea that the cycle with Justine might be "inoculating" him against it as his diet changes) and can then start inspiring those same things in people around him.
Taken to the extreme, Thomas could become the wampire's BAT-jesus! In the sense of a inspiring central savior-figure, not whatever went down with the actual dv jesus.
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Anger is a strong emotion too. He could inspire world peace by feeding.
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Anger would certainly be a valid diet, and I suppose he could inspire folks to become pseudo-berserkers, but I dont think that feeding actually does much to reduce the emotion their feeding on. The Wraith meals dont seem to loose interest in sex or anything.
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What forumghost posted. That WOJ implies that it doesnt have to be malevolent emotions, just strong ones. And what he eat's becomes what he inspires. So what if he starts to feed off acts of devotion, or Courage, or even True Love (on the idea that the cycle with Justine might be "inoculating" him against it as his diet changes) and can then start inspiring those same things in people around him.
Taken to the extreme, Thomas could become the wampire's BAT-jesus! In the sense of a inspiring central savior-figure, not whatever went down with the actual dv jesus.
Dammit, now I wanna know what would be the Kryptonite of such a Wampire.
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Dammit, now I wanna know what would be the Kryptonite of such a Wampire.
I dunno, Treachery?
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I dunno, Treachery?
Oh wow, that would be just the worst thing for a Wampire to be allergic too, wouldn't it? :D
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Oh wow, that would be just the worst thing for a Wampire to be allergic too, wouldn't it? :D
Indeed :P
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Anger would certainly be a valid diet, and I suppose he could inspire folks to become pseudo-berserkers, but I dont think that feeding actually does much to reduce the emotion their feeding on. The Wraith meals dont seem to loose interest in sex or anything.
Yeah, the emotion isn't the energy, it's the channel the energy flows through.
After last night's posting, it did occur to me that Thomas was born on St. Valentine's Day, so if any vampire could learn to feed through Love, it might him. I'm not sure, though, that a Whampire that successfully did that would still be a Whampire. Thomas might then have become something else, maybe something unprecedented.
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Yeah, the emotion isn't the energy, it's the channel the energy flows through.
After last night's posting, it did occur to me that Thomas was born on St. Valentine's Day, so if any vampire could learn to feed through Love, it might him. I'm not sure, though, that a Whampire that successfully did that would still be a Whampire. Thomas might then have become something else, maybe something unprecedented.
I'm not sure about unprecedented, but something lacking currently.
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The WoJ again
My reading of this is that Jim is implying MM Marcone is not the same character as the standard universe Marcone, and that the differences are "really interesting"
I have very specific, bad ass theories on some of those differences.
As we get closer to MM, I'm going to start using the term MMcone.
Kinda like Harry Yrrah for MM Harry and TTH for time traveling Harry.
I'm not arguing with the WoJ. Obviously he knows what he's doing and I'll have to wait to see what happens, BUT...
I thought that the MM book would be based on what happened based on a decision Harry makes in Grave Peril.
We'd already met Marcone in both SF and FM and Harry's dislike of him was already firmly established. Now I'm not saying that after 10-ish years that Harry's dislike couldn't have changed, or their relationship, but what I'm struggling with is how Marcone will have changes from BEFORE the split in GP.
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I'm not arguing with the WoJ. Obviously he knows what he's doing and I'll have to wait to see what happens, BUT...
I thought that the MM book would be based on what happened based on a decision Harry makes in Grave Peril.
We'd already met Marcone in both SF and FM and Harry's dislike of him was already firmly established. Now I'm not saying that after 10-ish years that Harry's dislike couldn't have changed, or their relationship, but what I'm struggling with is how Marcone will have changes from BEFORE the split in GP.
He wouldnt have to Change prior to GP, just would have to diverge on a different path as things went forward. He can be as least as different in the MM as Harry's evil doppelganger, which by all indications is pretty darned different.