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Messages - tetrasodium

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16
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 09, 2012, 08:51:45 PM »
If you want to make this familiar to D&D players, my best advice is to tell them, "Forget everything you know about RPG's, cause this is nothing like that" :)

JK.


Kinda. Fate doesn't follow the traditional model, and I think trying to make it familiar does it a disservice. It's taken me close to 6 months to break my players out thinking of the game in the traditional model. GM has control over the world, Players have their characters. Trying to make it more D&D like I would think only hurts that process.

yea I tried that, at one point I has 3-4 mostly regular players for about 5-6 months I guess it was  & figured doing a city/character creation thing was a good idea, everyone agreed & we scheduled it for the next week's game session for it. one player really had it clicking by then & was going to make a WCV/FBI agent, his phase3 was about him hunting down & trying to stop a weapons smuggling ring that happened to be RCV .  Two other Players were going for a minor talent/biker adrenaline junky & a pure mortal "Monster Hunter", lets call them Joe & Steve.  Joe & steve kinda seized up & were having trouble with a phase3 idea of their own, & eventyually joe the biker's player says "This doesn't make sense, I dont understand how any of us could possibly get involved with each other, I mean I can't see my biker/adrenaline junky having anything to do with weapons smuggling vampires, & that doesn't seem like something his monster hunter would even care about" to which the monster hunter pipes up with "yea I dopn't think I would either, can we just have three phase 3's?"  at this point however... only the WCV even had a phase3! Joe & steve were pretty heavily stuck with deer in the headlights through the whole thing.  A fourth player wanted to play a demon possessed cop but had no input on what wouldgo in the city except for "maybe some really  bad criminal type 'royalty type rich folks'">"ok great, what are they rich from & what bad stuff are the involved with?">"*deer headlights* uhh nothing really just bad/mean, the kind of folks who would throw a plate of food at a waiter because the eggs were cooked wrong, these folks would probably really have it in for my character too">"uhhh... okay?... why do they have it in for your character?  Maybe we can involve them somehow with his RCV weapon smugglers">"no I don't think so, & don't really like that idea">"So um... What do you like, because you guys are way beyond the 'someone was rude to someone in a restaurant' end of the power scale & I can't imagine how rude people involved in nothing & doing nothing could be involved in the game"  Lets call him Mike.

For the first three months, mike's regular & reliable contribution was to stomp on the breaks & call the police to hand everything over to with an attempt to wash the group's hands of the whole matter with everything as soon as anything even a little bit possibly illegal, even when it was obvious the cops would have no chance & get slaughtered... again.  When your players are pretty much operating on "I roll contacts X">"um... for?  What are you trying to accomplish?">"I dunno, you're the gm, what does contacts X give me? What do I find out?">" huh?! about?... you've been showing up for like 6 months now, are you sure you read the book?  did you at least skim the bits on aspects/assessments/maneuvers/playing the game?"  there needs to be a change somewhere to keep things running, doubly so when attendance becomes intermittent & random

At least a D&d/typical fantasy setting might be familiar enough to get more participation

17
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 09, 2012, 05:24:50 PM »

OR it has to apply to all of them. OR none of them. Fiasco has almost no rules involving achievement. You could say that the dice passed out at the end of each scene are kinda of achievement based, but not within the model you've put forth.
All of them, sure... none of them would be pretty tough without it no longer being an acheivement.  I've never played fiasco, but I've read the back of the book blurb on  a few fiasco modules(?) in the past & all of them seem to be about some fiasco has happened to your (not so) carefully laid plan & you have to survive/get away/escape/etc while hopefully salvaging as much as possible.  It's pretty tough for it to still be an rpg, without those goals being accomplished through some mix of the four things or roping chess/checkrs/etc in with "rpg's" ... but even those technically fall within the three categories beyond achievement in an extremely technical sense.


For the record, outside of D&D, what RPG's have you played? I haven't really been following the thread, but it seems like you're coming to FATE and RPG's in general with a very have D&D leaning. Perhaps even a 3.5/4e/Pathfinder leaning. Not that that's bad, but it does provide a limited perspective in what RPG's can do.
Well, d&d/pathfinder of different flavors is obvious, but the heavy slant of them  is due to the fact that most of my lost confused/lost players are familiar with those or one or more computer rpg's that often either copy, or heavily borrow from the d&d/pathfinder style of magic when creating their magic system.

Other RPG's though, shadowrun, rifts, a d6 based starwars game, mage, vtm, & I'm probably leaving out a bunch of random "oh that looks cool... and there is an empty seat" con games & such.

When you look at a player who tells you he's lost & say "well the setting is pretty much the normal world with supernatural stuff going on in the background that people ignore/rationalize away/etc like if you saw someone throwing fire at a guy who threw a car at him on your way to work, you might tell everyone you think you saw a cool looking action movie being filmed on your way in & forget about it when the movie never comes out... really... that didn't help? at all? Can you give, me a bit more detail on what confuses you?..  ok well... are you familiar with, or ever seen, the old tv dresden files show? [no], that show GRIMM on tv now? [no] uhh... Buffy/Angel? [no] Charmed? [no] Supernatural? [no] True blood, uhh... any other show where something supernatural exists in the modern day real world? [like what ?] Harry freaking potter?! interview with a vampire?  Twilight? ANYTHING?! [maybe I'm not really cut out for RPG's, I was hoping it would be more like insert crpg setting]".  Yes I had almost that exact conversation once, this person once told me they had never heard of "Han solo (you know, the space ship pilot who owns the miullenium falcon & wookie friend chewie in starwars?)"  So yes, the original intent was to provide a touchstone of familiarality to people like that & nearing that, d&d/Pathfinder provides that.

As to the GNS, thanks for the link I don't think I've seen it acronymizd vbefpre & was thinking it was someone's initials :).  I agree that it would solve certain problems if different word choices were made for it's categories

18
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 09, 2012, 08:08:24 AM »
Neither. It mostly tends towards making sure that rules work properly.

*sigh*  I'm not sure how you can deny that being an achievement without redefining one or more words.  For "the  rules to work properly" to still apply to an RPG, it has to apply to either killing stuff, exploring stuff, socializing, or another achievement.  If it does not, then the only possibility is that you are no longer participating in a RPG or are redefining one of more words to something wildly different from their meaning.

I also find it bizzare how you keep going out of your way to find insult where there clearly is not one.  Is english not your first language?  If that were the case, it could explain both points if there is simply some mistranslation going on.

19
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 09, 2012, 08:00:13 AM »
* I really wish GNS hadn't ruined some words for describing games.  I'm using the dictionary definition - not GNS'.  If it matters, that's my default.
GNS?

20
DFRPG / Re: Characters from supernatural
« on: November 09, 2012, 01:05:24 AM »
Sam probably has a stunt for +2 on  exorcism/binding acts of faith under conviction, maybe even one that moves arcane research under scholarship as well because he's a heavy internet user for research , Rumors from contacts is probably under scholarship for him as well given how often he finds something going on as a result of  on the internet.  Dean seems to know most of the real world people

21
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 09, 2012, 12:44:52 AM »
I guess. I mean people's opinion shines through during literary and film analysis, but that doesn't mean that all of it is worthless or meant to insult. If you read The Raven, because you think it's got a really cool talking raven, and I say "the poem isn't really about that, the raven never really speaks, it's the man's despair racked brain that is conjuring the word and possibly even conjuring the raven. You'd be better served reading The Lion the witch and Wardrobe if you like talking animals." I'm not insulting you for liking talking animals. I'm saying that the fiction you've picked isn't the best representation of it. I'm also not insulting you for liking the Raven, I'm just saying that's not what the Raven is intended for in Poem.  It's the same thing with games.

and I'm metaphorically saying that the "FATE is about [despair/story]" wording is a poor word choice because players who prefer [poems/games] that lean towards heavy [exploration/killing/achievement/talking animals] are directed towards a faulty assumption since killing/exploring/ achievement is not normally thought of as "story".

Think about it Sanctaphrax, presumably, you like to achieve something through that tinkering you mention, does that achievement typically lean towards a game of combat, exploration, or both?  It doesn't matter where you fall on the scale, it's just a handy yardstick GM's can use to make assessments about what types of gameplay that their players like (or players that their GM likes to run) :). A person can change over time & from game/system/group to game/system/group

22
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 07, 2012, 04:39:43 PM »
Yes, but it goes double for a game like Fate. In other games, the description is built into the spell itself. A magic missile or a ray of confusion looks the same no matter who casts it. That's not true in Fate, where a spell is mechanically only a description of "I throw X shifts of Y at him". And to get out of that trap, I think it helps if you start to think of spells as a narrative tool first, and add the mechanics later.

  • I'm going to give an example that fuses this with my "story is the wrong word"bit above where I talk about the different types of players having trouble & talking past each other to the detriment of the game as a direct result of that word choice with  Sanctaphrax's ~"FATE  is great for a dungeon crawl, but story can go cry pound" recent idea.
  • For simplicity's sake "you're all in a bar and you all know the drill...
  • Players (killer, explorer, & maybe achiever) don't care about "story", so mostly  of the stare at the gm/socializer while waiting in relative silence zoned out until something happens that  they care about
  • GM tries to wake up players hiding in portable holes in the socializer's back pocket on the way to the crawl & isn't sure there will be enough time to finish it, so he throws in a random encounter
  • socializer & explorer don't really care &phone it in with X shifts of Y if need be until things progress
  • GM Sighs inwardly because the "random encounter" wasn't so random & was brutally obvious that it could have been tied/linked to things socializer  & explorerer had both shown interest in... but being that "fate is about story" they were phoning in the combat & never considered assessing or declaring the ambush starting in the trees as being linked to the things like "you notice the corpses have medallions/tattoos linking them to  the [secret society of badstuff], "the GM eventually just declares himself out of frustration
  • killer immediately tunes out because the Society of Badstuff (SoB) is story & he just wants to kill shit & break things, he never realizes that he could do things like assess or declare a fight into the socializer's talky talky "nonsense", or the explorer's upcoming dungeon crawl
  • dungeon crawl begins, the GM describes the entrance/a room/whatever & socializer/killer sit silently half paying attention, explorerer sets about exploring, nobody does things like assess/declare a prison guard/prisoner that they could fight/socialize with while the explorer explores because they are trying to patiently endure the bone that the GM is  throwing at the explorer
  • so on & so forth, around & around they go through the vicious cycle of merely enduring


I never said they don't affect combat, I said they do more than that.

I still don't understand why you find that insulting.

I'm not using about story as a short hand, I'm saying the heavy presence of narrative control, plus the heavy reminders about keeping a good story in mind strongly indicates the game is in fact about story.

If you think fate is the best for a dungeon crawl, use it for that. I personally think Dungeon World would create a better feel for the shared experience and if you wanted the original feel I'd guess one of OSR's is better.
This exchange between Addicted2aa & sajnctaphrax is so perfect for my point that it almost falls into what looks to be an inadvertent devil's advocate situation.  One of you is arguing that it's great for a dungeon crawl & it's not about story, the other is arguing that it's a poor choice for a dungeon crawl compared to other systems designed for that due to the fact that "FATE is about story."  You two are talking past each other while circling my point about story being the wrong word.  I'm guessing Addicted2aa leans towards some mix of Socializer/explorer(?) & Sanctaphrax explorer/killer(?), but neither of you are seeing that you are saying the same thing!  Fate is not about story, it's about everything & nothing at the same time.  If the players want to explore & socialize their way through  a plot...  GREAT![/i Doso.  If they want to dungeon crawl, kill shit & break things, do that too/instead!  By saying "FATE is about story," both of you are illustrating a player patiently waiting fir that other player's bone to finish instead of assessing/declaring a link to the thing you want to see in what you saw as just a bone that you didn't want to ruin/intrude on.

23
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 06, 2012, 09:22:00 PM »
If I answered that, I'd be doing what I dislike.

Saying what a game is about, in my experience, is generally a way to tell people who play differently that they're doing it wrong.

What attracted me to DFRPG is the excellent mechanical structure and the possibility of truly perfect balance through the use of Aspects.
Agreed, but I'd like to extend on this with my own thoughts.  I suspect we might be in agreement on them, & they might be helpful with regards to some of the confusion on the "fate is not about story" & my belief that "story" is a poor choice of words.

I'm sure that at least a significant percentage of the folks here have at least heard of the [=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Testurl]Bartle test[/url] where players are divided into some mix of explorer, Socializer, Achiever, & Killer.  It may have been originally designed toward splayers of MUD's & MMO's, but both of those are descendents of pen & paper RPG's making it still apply to different player playstyles. By using the word choice of "story", you somewhat imply that FATE should be slanted heavily towards some of those with some of the other playstyles being an odd fit when that is not the case.

To use a real world example, few would claim that a live radio broadcast of a sporting event is a "story", in the technical sense it both is & is not.  With fate, you can have:
  • A: A player rather far into the socializer slant that wants to roleplay & doesn't think anyone should bother with dice, maneuvers, aspects, etc because it "gets in the way of story." He gets annoyed when people inject nonsense like combat into his "story" & retreats into a portable hole when it starts if at all possible
  • B: A player who wants to explore the world & doesn't give a fig about "story."  Things like aspects/maneuvers/etc just get in the way of doing that.  He too doesn't care about one of the other aspects & retreats into his portable hole/pokeball when that thing comes up in game
  • C: A player who doesn't give a fig about  A or B & just wants to kill shit & break things.  Since this player is uninterested in the exploring/socializing aspects & has been told "FATE is about story", they play a character that effectively lives in a portable hole until there is combat rather than "ruining" the game for the other's
  • D: A player who wants to achieve something with their character who wants to collect things (or whatever).  He's been told that "FATE is about story" and  sees that enchanted items cost refresh, since C is playing a blind deaf mute outside of combat and A/B are off doing their own things that kind of exclude him as well, he too leans towards mute/uncertain about involvement without ever realizing that some of those cool toys & things he wants to achieve can be obtained through involvement & assessing/declaring a hanging light into the ballroom so he can swing from it shooting "monsters" along the waylooking badass in the spotlight.  Because he's been beat over the head previously in other systems for being a "spotlight hog", he never gets comfortable enough to go about really inserting himself into A, B, & C's areas in ways that direct the spotlight towards him & really shake things up due to the fact that such things would "break" thew game using many other more rigid systems.  He also kinda lives in a portable hole not wanting to "hog the spotlight" & break the game, but he occasionally springs out into action pokemon style..

In reality, almost nobody is 100% slanted towards any one thing, but people usually lean towards 1-2 things more than the others.  The problem with all the portable hole/pokeball dwelling characters is that the sudden appearance of a few characters that were all but ignored & trying to be deaf mutes really causes problems. It causes even more problems if they have spotty/random attendance because they figure their interest won't come up much this week & nothing is lost for them since it's "probably just going to be a minor milestone I don't need" instead of an experience accumulation.
I might not know a thing about, or be interested in boxing... but this randomly selected muhammed Ali fight i just listened to is a pretty damned cool "story" that FATE could handle easily even though almost nobody would call it a "story" (being at work, I can't exactly go hunting for one with a more active announcer)

Haru's comment about getting players to say what their character is doing is relevant to this whole thread.  The original reframing I did in the first three posts was designed to help players accomplish just that by explaining something alien to them in terms that are more familiar to them & make it easier for them to think about how to do more than push numbers around the table.

The one in 5 or so (if that) players I have sit down that are familiar with the dresdenverse are usually so paralyzed by the thought of conflicting with the cannon in the books that they are afraid to step out of their portable hole very often, "when do we meet Harry/Marcone/etc, or can I play Harry?" is usally more of a problem for them.  Woe to the GM who gets one of them as an A or B type player as the only other player with a C or D type player's first session.  By describing things in a more typical fantasy style, both sides of that coin are (hopefully )less afraid of taking the reins & doing more narrating than "pushing numbers around", the game can be more healthy.

24
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 06, 2012, 07:17:35 AM »
You can't track or summon with spirit evocations.

PS: I don't really like the whole "FATE is about story" thing.

I know with the track/summon, but having the elements for evocation & then thaumaturgy being this other set of things entirely caused a lot of confusion when they looked at the elements, said "so it could do a a spell like like..." confusion when the answer was "well technically, not really that's a special thaumaturgy option... no... it's neither an element or specailization kinda thing, thaumaturgy has different rules from evocation"

with regards to FATE is about story thing, I agree somewhat because "story"  is just a poor choice of wording, but it needs more than d20 "I summon X shifts of Y" and "what do I find out with [insert skill] [insert effort]?" from playersI'd rather see players getting involved & trying to creatively justify how [insert element their character is heavily involved in] could provide them with a thaumaturgic spell of X functionality than the "x shift tracking/summoning/etc spell" the division seems to have been causing

25
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 06, 2012, 05:55:43 AM »
I dunno about anybody else, but I'm having a lot of trouble working out which parts are explanation and which parts are house rules. It's probably the root of my confusion.

Also the Law stuff makes me nervous. Using the Laws as a balancing factor really isn't a good idea.

Thanks for the feedback :).  I originally set out to redescribe the elements as written with a d&d/fantasy style slant, all of the example stuff is just a very liberal reading of the elements put to words.  That's mostly the case with spirit if you just call it divine instead of spirit save for the fifth law pass it gets*.

Part of why I kinda came down hard on spirit is because on some levels I would rather people avoid it because most of the spirit casters I've had went out of their way to play a pokemon* style character that never gets involved in anything & completely shuts down if "I summon N shifts for a tracking spell"runs into a hiccup that requires more work than "and it takes you to the current bigbad" even if it takes them someplace like the bigbad's locked after hours corporate headquarters where he had been doing badwrongstuff.

 The laws being loosen/tightened I'm not entirely certain about, but the laws of magic are very dresdenverse specific & have led to an awful lot of confusion .  It's not really intended as a balancing factor, just I've seen too many casters played by people freaking terrified of possibly  maybe breaking a law & never really liked the fact that second through fourth law violating spells get a free pass on even pretending to require shifts towards persistence to maintain.  The laws aren't intended to serve as a balancing factor any more than they did originally, it's much easier & more useful during the game's progress to just rely on "actions have consequences" type sticks

* "Pikachu I choose you!... tracking spell, force bolt, oh something wasn't 1000% effective & you are going to sit there and sulk in silence now until a fight starts when you "I  summon N shifts of power for a force bolt".

26
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 06, 2012, 02:12:38 AM »
The issue I'm having is that you wrote this huge long thing to make stuff "easier" and yet what you have done is change a system that the people who you are writing this for have not read and dont understand, in order to make it that way.

It seems like a waste when the FATE system is designed for imagination and if they dont understand the magic system, further defining what the types of spells can be done doesn't help people understand the magic system I feel. Also you have redefined spirit to be clerical type spells when there is another section that defines that itself.

I'm not trying to be mean but it seems like a waste.

You aren't being mean, I posted my first draft here hoping for honest feedback :).  the examples are just that though, a large part of why I included them was because I was tired of "I call up X shifts of Y against that guy."  By having general examples I can give with a charactersheet, I'm saved from the inevitable "yea whatever that"* & a bunch of heads hitting the table in frustration.

The folks who don't understand it will usually fall into one of two groups:
  • They are new to rpg's in general & know nothing about the dresdenverse setting leading to lots of "yea that I guess" with a character that effectively might as well be "man 1"
  • a player who is familiar with some flavor of d&d/pathfinder/shadowrun & needs more help than I can give without turning the session into "and today, the GM teaches some guy, that may or not be back next session, how to play & about the setting"

Since it's easier to just stick things into a standard fantasy setting, I might as well explain magic in a way that better fits the setting & lacks all the dresdenverse "baggage" that doesn't really fit well in a d&d type of fantasy setting. 

I had originally considered dropping spirit altogether, but when I dove deeper into the elements, I noticed that a lot of what spirit has can be done through other elements & it felt out of place.  It was not until  a day or so after doing quick 1 page writeups on the individual elements that the spirit=divine caster with a code more strict than arcane to worry about.  After I made that decision, I went back & quickly threw together this rough draft :)

* Usually in reply to about 5-6 different off the cuff examples from myself and a regular or two trying to help.

27
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 06, 2012, 12:41:02 AM »
I am very confused. What is this?

 :'(
I thought it was pretty well explained,  it's the elements described in yourstory re-described with a standard fantasy rpg  (d&d/Pathfinder/etc) style filter maybe I'm not understanding your question or something?  It came about out of frustration running an "open game"* at a FLGS where the majority of my players had trouble adjusting to both the dresdenverse (few of them had read the books).  That lack of understanding was made worse when they would get into the magic system & find themselves at a loss for anything familiar.  I wound up eventually sliding the game towards a fantasy/eberron-like setting & a lot of the regular players seemed to start having an easier time of it.  The redescribed elements are really pretty much the original elements described differently with more in the way of example/guidance aimed at a fantasy style setting.   Maybe that helps?... If not, can you guys give a bit more explaination on your confusion?

* Open game means that anyone who shows up can play

28
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 04, 2012, 06:29:22 PM »
It's not intended to be an exhaustive tome of magic style listing, I think/hope you guys agree that it's a good intro that provides experienced d&d type players a warm & familiar pool to jump into & does a good job of both protecting the game from horrible uses of magic to make casters think before they break out book of vile darkness style spells without making arcane casters afraid to even consider many of the standard fantasy type spells like detect thoughts, charm & polymorph or making those spells extremely powerful and turning them into mindrape/baleful polymorph+permanence all the time.  "Divine" spirit casters get the "I can start healing for realz yo!" stuff along with some of the usual overlap into arcane casting while arcane gets some minor themantically  appropriate methods of starting to heal some types of consequences based on the element in use along with a strong dose of "arcane casters tampering with life create undead abominations" with the different  elements creating different sorts of abominations and that those abominations are sometimes reasonably kinda ok.  Both spirit/divine  & the arcane elements can claim that the other side of the fence just doesn't understand how things really work on some level where each can mimic certain raw elements of the other even while the metaphorical conceptual aspects are out of reach leading to accomplishing certain things differently even if the end result is nearly the same & just situationally more/less helpful.

29
DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 04, 2012, 06:15:11 PM »
o   Earth:  This leads us to our last Arcane element.  In some ways, earth is also the most dangerous element to have since stability is one of its aspects & it’s spells are not  as likely to erode & disperse themselves leading to law violations for a careless (or evil) arcane caster. The key aspects to earth are: Stability, Gravity, & Grounding. While the stability aspect tends to make earth spells  lack the tendency of self dispersal, consumption, & decay that air, water, & fire spells have.  In the case of a shelter, this can be useful through the night, but in the case of mind magic & transmutation, this can be a horrible thing
o   Transmutation:  Earth Has a whole lot more transmutation stuff than you would expect, it’s control over stability, gravity, and grounding allows you to do things like tear down walls and stable forms and reshape the earth, or the mind/body itself into new forms of stability.
o   Shelter:  You could go simple & make a dome with (or without) a door out of shaped stone or hardened mud to give yourself a place to hide & shelter in.  Sometimes however, more extreme cases will call for things like hollowing out a cave in a Cliffside, or even sinking your dome beneath the ground.  If you choose to hide below ground, be sure to use some other spell to provide a fresh supply of air if you intend to be staying long
o   Polymorph[Evil]:  By removing the stability in the structure of your victim, you can encourage the body to take on a new stable form using Earth’s other aspects.  Unfortunately this sort of thing is every bit as evil & lawbreaking as the magic described in the third law’s warnings about transforming another.
o   Mind Mucking:[Evil]  This is every bit as evil as fire’s version of this example.  Except instead of incinerating & consuming memories, you are tearing away stability of the mind & trying to builds a new stable form
o   Permanency[IFFY][evil]:  Earth’s control over stability could allow an arcane caster to make a spell (or other effect) into something permanent.  This activity in itself is not evil or law breaking, but nothing comes free, something needs to have its stability torn down & shaped into a new stable form to power the permanent effect, this might be a character’s aspect, it might be some vampire type need instilled in an object.  Whatever the case, It’s probably not always a good thing & always subject to the whims of the GM. 
o   Healing:  Earth has domain over stability & can be used to restore an unstable injury like insanity, broken bones, bleeding wounds, etc to their normal stable state with some difficulty.  It’s not enough to instantly heal a patient, but it will is enough to help put them back into a state of better functionality while they continue healing towards a full recovery & get the consequence slot back
o   This sort of spell could even result in a retroactive penalty.  Using the vampire effect mentioned, an enchanted sword designed to symbiotically feed off the blood, or life force, of its user is probably not going to cause any real problems.  If the user turns out to be a bloodthirsty murderous monster who figures out he can (super)charge the sword by torturing & slaying innocents by the dozen, if the caster who made the effect permanent chooses not to take action & allows this to continue, the caster is well on his way to piling up multiple  flavors of law violations.
o   Lightning:  Lightning can come from either air or earth for perceptual & scientific reasons that could vary from caster to caster
   Revive/Animate Dead: By imparting a body (or piece of one) with an arcane spark of life, a caster could bring it back as an undead abomination.  Because lightning is both capable of consuming things in fire & providing its own power to things, this sort of revival/animation could go towards both the [iffy] stupid animated corps type of zombie or [evil] creation of a lich depending on the caster’s intent & desire when casting the spell.  See the animate/raise dead entries under fire& air for more details on those particular undead variants
o   Gravity & (Instability):  The earth element has control over gravity. & stability, a number of unpleasant effects can be created by this
   Gravity:  Singularity, crushing fist, reverse gravity.  Most of them are straight up mean & often poorly defended against
•   Singularity/White Hole: By creating a highly condensed ball of gravity, an arcane caster can create a miniature black hole capable of immense devastation given enough shifts of power.  The lesser known theoretical counterpart of a black hole is the white hole, a white hole is practically an explosion ejecting everything sucked into a black hole (possibly even one located elsewhere)
•   Reverse Gravity: If earth lets you play with gravity, it also lets you do things like reverse or redirect gravity.  “Up is now down & down is now up” can be rather difficult to defend against, as can be the ground when down becomes down again.
•   Redirect Gravity: Let’s say you have a few zones of baddies that you want to trap, or crush, by taking the gravity in an area larger than the one the baddies are in, you could immobilize or crush them under their own weight
•   Flight: Calling this flight is almost a stretch; it is however, probably one of the more stable ways to fly.  Use Earth to lessen or reverse gravity beneath you & follow up with magnetism to push/pull yourself through the sky towards your destination
•   Instability:   all of the other gravity effects, and more, can reject (or redirect) the stability aspect of earth magic in order to cause chaos.  Let’s say you have a zone (or more) of ground with gravity about to be multiplied, subtract stability to give you tentacles of black & white holes attracting, repelling, & feeding off each other around the unlucky opponents in that zone
o   Scrying With Earth: Earth elementals tend to be slow & difficult to convince into taking or changing action.  Their temperament is often so passive that they often border on near slumber.
   Earth is an incredibly useful element to scry with due to an earth elemental’s ability to “see” the general structure of a cave or stone building.  Its usefulness often fails by the wayside somewhat when trying to identify creatures within that structure as they tend to not be so savvy at understanding biological creatures that live “on” the earth’s surface, even if that sureface is a cave floor/roof.  It might not see much difference between a huge patch of ivy & a cavern filled with sleeping bats as a simple example.   It’s great for making assessments like “I know the general layout”


•   Spirit: If you’ve been reading along, you almost certainly noticed that much of what was normally found under spirit has variants under the other arcane elements as conceptual aspects of the elements are drawn out.  Spirit is not abandoned however; it gets stuff from the other elements as it dives into conceptual aspects ;)  A “divine” spirit caster needs to be especially aware of & wary of the laws of magic in order to avoid tainting their soul & invoking the wrath of whatever deity they gain power from (if any)
o   Raise/animate dead[EVIL]: All of the arcane methods of creating undead abominations (earth, water, & Air) are possible by tearing a/the spirit from the afterlife & forcibly imprisoning it in a corpse with the same results as if an arcane caster had used fire, air, water, or earth to accomplish the deed.
   Resurrect Dead: [Iffy]By dealing directly with the spirit realm, a divine/spirit caster can gently open a passage for the departed’s soul to return through & gently knit the thing back in place in the original body where it can be properly repaired to a state where it can power itself through normal biological processes like eating food & living life. Assuming the subject is willing, this is probably not an evil deed worthy of violating one of the laws of magic. You should talk to your GM about this sort of thing before simply trying it, there may be strings placed on the resurrected soul/body & the spell itself might require extremely difficult to aquire components.
o   Mind magic[Evil][Iffy]:  All the methods of mind magic described in fire &  earth are available to water by directly manipulating the mind/soul itself rather than metaphorically doing so with an element’s arcane aspects.  Since Spirit lacks water’s habit of rejecting stability within  it’s own form, Spirit cannot gently change the mind of an opponent/subject on a temporary basis..  Without Air’s familiar transmission allowing communication, spirit lacks Air’s potentially harmless method of listening in or its ability to freely move though the thoughts of another.
o   Force Effects:  Spirit is able to directly shape the soul into a tangible force & do every force effect described in the Arcane elements without a need for analogies.
o   Polymorph: [EVIL]  Spirit/Divine Polymorph is actually worse than earth’s.  Like Earth’s polymorph it’s not going to simply go away & revert to normal on its own. Unlike the other elements capable of polymorph-like effects, Spirit/divine polymorph changes both the soul & body directly while the caster is in direct contact with it without a shield of metaphors
o   Fire: Fire is able to interact with life because life & the soul is like a fire.  Spirit by extension is able to create fire & fiery explosions, it is not however able to make use of fire’s secondary aspects without great difficulty.  Spirit’s fires still burn, they just lack the ability to use consumption & destruction metaphorically (& probably has no need)
o   Water:  Spirit can use the same water of life analogy that allows water to do some of what it does.  As a result, it is capable of creating jets & blades of water even while it’s unable to access water’s metaphorical aspects  like decay/dispersal/etc using that metaphor.
o   Abjuration:  Spirit is able to directly touch the soul of another; as a result spells like heroism/Bolster courage & those that bestow other positive emotions on willing targets can be used without risk of a law violation. Intent matters Forcing one person to love someone they did not, or have so much courage that they run off to their (pointless) death for selfish purposes are two examples of positive emotions being bolstered in a way that would result in one or more law violations depending on the whims of your GM.
o   Healing:  There is no d&d style “poof you are perfect” style healing in fate given how consequences work.  Spirit is directly capable of healing nearly any physical or mental consequence into something else that allows the injured party to function more normally while recovery completes.  It is also able to use the life force of the injured themselves to support the magic while they heal in a symbiotic non-parasitic manner (of course parasitic is an option with law violation risks).  Doing so results in the same sort of risk of being slapped by someone else’s law violation that permanency under earth magic has.
   Depending on your game, your GM may choose to allow you to step down the level of a consequence while healing a subject, doing so will almost certainly be incredibly difficult however.
o   Curses:  Much Like all of the other elements, anything Spirit can give, it can redirect or work or take, you could easily use spirit to cause terror, cowardice, or drain life directly from an opponent:  Doing so will likely result in a law violation of some form, inducing a negative emotion on the min d of another is easily a violation of third/fourth law (if not both).  Stealing life from an opponent, could easily be considered to be reaching beyond the borders of life
o   Veils: There is a section of YS  that outlines rules related to veils.
o   Scrying with Spirit: There is no such thing as a spirit/force elemental, but spirit can contact all the other elementals as well as various extraplanar representatives.  Players should have an idea of what they are trying to contact ahead of time & speak with the GM or expect these other creatures to be rather unpleasant compared to the elementals.  This sort of contact with non-elemental beings comes with added risks due to the fact that things you are not trying to contact can use the link you bear towards extraplanar beings to crawl out at/through

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DFRPG / Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 04, 2012, 06:13:35 PM »
Elements
The elements are pretty simple, however on top of being just an element, they are also concepts those elements embody.  This list Writeup is not intended to be exhaustive, just a general thing.  The original DFRPG elements are outlined on YS253. Much like the lightning example on YS254, elements have a great deal of overlap.  If an element can bolster something, it can weaken or redirect it as well most likely.  In some cases, this can be bad for the caster as one element may have other aspects that lead to such a use being either temporary (& easily usable as a result) or permanent (& possibly a laws violation).

•   Water: I’m starting with water as it easily sets the stage for a number of things in the other elements.  The core description for water is that it embodies Entropy , along with Change, and is responsible for things like erosion, decay, disrupting, dissolving, disintegrating, etc.
o   Polymorph effects: water embodies change among other things.  As a result of this aspect it has, you can use it to change the form of someone (or something).  Since water is fluidic & lacks a stable form of its own, This change will typically only last as long as you continue to pump shifts into persistence when the target of your spell begins to swiftly return to its normal form.
o   Decay/dissolve/etc [iffy]: There are lots of things you can do with this, few of them good.  Disintegration type spells are an obvious attack spell, but dispersing/decaying/eroding  the mind, thoughts, or structure of an opponent/victim is probably bad & likely to risk law violations as situations dictate
o   Force Effects: A jet of high pressure: water can topple structures or slice into the flesh of a victim in its way, if you compress water under the pressure of about 10,000 times that of ouratmosphere, it will even solidify at room temp. by using various methods, you could make force effects with water, but doing so for armor/shield effects would probably be a whole lot more complicated than relying on a screen of magic enhanced with its ability to erode, decay, & degrade things  It could also be used to degrade/decay/disperse kinetic force
o   Charm Spells[Iffy]: Spirit may be the magic of the mind, but water is the magic if change & can be used to do things like change the mind of an opponent into believing you are an ally. See the laws above for more details, but this relies on water’s lack of stable structure in order to protect the caster from law violations by quickly allowing the victim to revert back to a normal mental state once your spell ends.  If they took consequences in their attempts to resist your spell however, you are looking at a law violation.
o   Mind Mucking [Evil][iffy]:  This is pretty similar to fire’s ability to do this.  Unlike the earlier mentioned ability to temporarily change the thoughts &memories of a subject/opponent.  By using some of water’s other aspects, an arcane caster could erode, degrade, & decay the thoughts & memories of a subject.  Doing this to active thoughts might just cause a moment of confusion, but doing this to memories is almost certainly going to be a bad thing
o   Raise/Animate Dead & other Necromancy[Evil]:  By using the element of water , an arcane caster could pour waters of life into the dead. 
   Since water is not consuming, it’s more likely to make an intelligent lich type of abomination than a dumb but useful zombie.  The end result is still an abomination that sucks life from the world around it to continue it’ existence if the spell is not structured in a way that allows it to disperse after you quit powering it with shifts of persistence.  Choosing to do it in a “good enough” manner in order to create a dumb zombie is always an option
o   
o   Waterbreathing:  By taking advantage of water’s ability to change things, you could do things like change an ally to be able to breathe through a pair of gills while you power the spell with persistence.
o   Abjuration type effects: If water can change things, it can change a friend to make them temporarily stronger, smarter, focused etc while you pump shifts into persistence to maintaining the temporary aspect you gave them.  Granted someone with a high might, scholarship, discipline, etc may need more shifts pumped into this due to the difficulty involved.  Suddenly giving a frog into Einstein levels of scholarship might be doable for a while, but more is not always better, too much of a good thing can be distracting or cause problems with coordination & planning.  Be careful with just extending these effects across entire zones of allies.
o   Curse effects:  You may be asking how water can curse someone, but if you can use it to change someone to be someone smarter, stronger, or more athletic, you can use it to change them to be dumber, weaker, less coordinated, etc & rely on the same lack of stability in water to protect you from law violations once your spell wears off.  You can get slapped down hard with lawbreaker penalties if you inflict consequences as a direct part of the spell (dumb as a post consequence is bad, mentally headache, blurred vision, & bleeding from the ears will clear up fine.)
o   Cats grace & freedom of movement:  By enhancing the fluidity in an ally, you can do things like bestow an aspect to grant them the fluidity to move without impedance, or to move more fluidly, yes change could cover some of this, but different methods become important in different situations.
o   Reduced/Zero Gravity:  Use Water’s ability to erode & disperse things to erode & disperse gravity someplace desirable.  It might not be as good as reverse gravity, but it might let you carry that house in a pinch
o   Healing:  You could use water to change a wound into something less wounded, but the effect would likely be temporary & difficult unless some other method is used to maintain the spell.  It would be great to change a slashed wrist/throat into an unslashed one long enough to buy time for a divine (or mundane) healer to address the problem as you slowly release the spell.
o   Shadow/Darkness:  By eroding, decaying and/or degrading light itself, the element of water is able to create areas of shadow & darkness
o   Scrying With Water: Water Elementals are often selfish & vain.   Their mood & temperament ranges from calm, friendly, & complacent to indifferent brutality.
   Water is capable of reflecting things back at a viewer & ripples with the presence of sound.  Since most living creatures (especially civilized ones) tend to need water to some extent, they are often able to peer through & listen to things going on around another body /container of water & is great for making assessments/declarations like “I know where/when the BBEG’s ritual is going down” or helping to find a trail to their a supplier/henchmen.

•   Air:  Air is the element of motion & freedom, it’s also vital in most spoken communication & life requires it
o   Freedom of movement: No it won’t let you move through anything & avoid being grappled like the D&D version.  These kinds of effects can give you a defense, armor, or shield against anything that would impede movement given the right situation.
   This could likewise be twisted into hold person type effects by removing the freedom of motion in an opponent Too much of a good thing can be bad however as blood needs to move within the body for your victim to live, paralyzed while suffering from a massive heart attack might be a rather horrific death that taints the caster who caused it.
o   Telepathy & detect thoughts[IFFY]: The transmission of & eavesdropping on thoughts is a staple of many fantasy settings. By using the fact that air is vital to spoken communication, you can provide the freedom to enter or listen in on another’s thoughts.
o   Bending & manipulation of light:  Light passes through the air, & light is covers movement. You might not easily be doing any cool illusions with it, but a telescope & giant “ant” melting magnifying glass probably aren’t too tough ;).
o   Force Effects:  While not quite the same as Spirit’s control over force, a sufficiently dense &compressed area of air or wind could provide you with a similar effect
   By Extension, there are a great many nasty things that can be done with a highly compressed blade of air, or a pocket of vacuum
o   Flight & feather fall:  There are a great many ways you could swing these as coming from air, everything from reducing your motion towards the ground to gusts of wind to lift,  condensed sheets of air to carry you, along with  all sorts of other possibilities & combinations.  Needless to say, sustained flight probably is not that easy…. It might be a lot easier than landing though, that goes double if someone else threw you into the air & let you fall on your own, unprepared;).
o   Veils & invisibility type effects: Being responsible for things like motion & having light transmit through air gives you a nice way to use air for bending light around you sort of like a magically created mesh of fiberoptics that bend the light around you.
o   Raise/Animate Dead & other Necromancy[Evil]:  By using the element of air, an arcane caster could breathe life into the dead. 
   Since air is not consuming, it’s more likely to make an intelligent lich type of abomination than a dumb but useful zombie.  The end result is still an abomination that sucks life from the world around it to continue it’ existence if the spell is not structured in a way that allows it to disperse after you quit powering it with shifts of persistence.  Choosing to do it in a “good enough” manner in order to create a dumb zombie is always an option
o   Transmutation effects: Granted you probably won’t be using Air to turn your friend into a giant like water & some other elements can, but you might be able to transmute the air in order to purify it for breathing, or foul it to make breathing more difficult.  You could also do things like separate out only the explosive oxygen & compress it into a bomb ready for a spark.
Healing:  Air might be a poor choice for most healing, but a broken arm/leg could be started towards full mobility by reducing the freedom & motion in the broken section of bone & enhancing it in the limb itself the motion I the limb
o   Slow/Haste: By lowering or raising the movement in an opponent/ally, you can provide them with an aspect that slows or hastens their ability to move & react to things
o   Lightning: Lightning can fit under either air, or Earth depending on how a given caster views magic.
   Revive/Animate Dead: By imparting a body (or piece of one) with an arcane spark of life, a caster could bring it back as an undead abomination.  Because lightning is both capable of consuming things in fire & providing its own power to things, this sort of revival/animation could go towards both the [iffy] stupid animated corps type of zombie or [evil] creation of a lich depending on the caster’s intent & desire when casting the spell.  See the animate/raise dead entries under fire& air for more details on those particular undead variants
o   Water Breathing:  There is oxygen in water, by using air magic, you could theoretically forcibly collect the air in it into a breathable form or provide a bubble of breathable air that refreshes itself from the oxygen in the water.
o   Shield & armor effects:  If air can be compressed into a blade or wind can be used to lift you into the air,
o   Sound: Sound travels as a vibration through the air, by using air magic, a caster could do things like dampen sounds for stealth & privacy.  It could even do things like create phantom sounds & “throw”/redirect  actual or phantom sounds
o   Scrying With Air: Air elementals tend to be whimsical & easily distracted at one end, all the way to cruel & savage depending on their mood and temperament.
   Air’s temperament, ease of losing interest, & the general obviousness of a gust of wind wailing its way through one’s livingspace tends to make air elementals something typically a poor choice for scrying, they are usually able to move fast though & sometimes able to be n multiple places at once to allow for a “whispering wind” type effect where a brief message, & sometimes conversation can be had across distances of a few miles with only minor delays while the elemental remains interested in helping
   On a not related note, air magic can bend light as explained in other parts of air’s writeup, by doing so, an aeromancer can  always have ready access to a telescope, pair of binoculars, or magnifying “glass”
•   Fire:  On the surface, Fire is an element that’s stuck with mere destructive uses, but it’s aspects are so much more  First we start with consumption & destruction, but life, courage, & rage can be life a fire as well
o   Force Effects:  This is a different sort of force than the compressed air that air & water would use, but an explosion creates quite a bit of force, a directed explosion sends it right where it needs to go ;). Good for armor & shields if incinerating attacks is not going to be helpful.
o   Breathable Air: Ok, It’s not as useful as water & Air’s contributions here, but fire can split the air out of a watersource, & with some difficulty carefully burn off the hydrogen without burning off the oxygen (or blowing yourself up!)  Having a bowl/canteen of water pumping out oxygen while trapped in a vault or something could be mighty useful though!
o   Burn/incinerate stuff:  This is the obvious usage for fire, but it could be used for any situation where you might want to burn or incinerate stuff.  Granted ASir & spirit can focus light into a laser-like beam of burning death, but fire can go whole hog & just explode with a nice ball of burning death.
o   Mind mucking: [evil][Iffy] Fire can make changes to the mind of a victim, but unlike water & air, those changes will rarely escape a law violation due to how they work. Water lets you do things like temporarily add/change things in the mind of someone & air gives you the freedom to listen & move within their thoughts & memories; But fire allows you to burn away the thoughts & memories of your victim in a way far more destructive & potentially damaging than water’s ability to erode & disperse those memories.  Even if the subject of this sort of magic wants you to do this, it might still be iffy depending on the situation & whims of the GM.  Caster beware. 
o   Raise/Animate Dead[Evil]: Fires of life, by infusing the fire of life into a the dead, you can revive/animate them.
o   Since fire is a destructive force that consumes, you are likely to wind up with a horrible abomination hellbent on sustaining itself with the life of anything around it in a way that borders on hatred for the living.
o   Healing: You may be wondering how fire could heal without even being iffy.  It’s actually pretty reasonable though.  A bleeding wound can be sealed & disinfected with fire to allow it time to heal cleanly without infection & prevent the patient from bleeding out.  On top of that, your body will use fire to fight off various sorts of infections & illnesses by causing a fever or localized warmth to help in fighting off infection.  By using fire, you could even supercharge the body’s attempts, just be careful not to kill the patient in the process.
o   Regrowth:  While revive/animate dead is a bad idea, by lending fire’s strength of life to the patient’s own, you can help it to regrow damaged or missing body parts while it’s still alive.  Since you are only providing a sustaining encouraging scaffold for the body to repair itself, this manages to neatly avoi8d diving into tainting necromancy by the slimmest of margins.
o   Scrying with fire: Fire elementals are likely to lash out if they feel slighted or abused
   You wouldn’t think that a fire elemental would be much help when scrying, but fire creates light & is used for seeing in the dark.  As a result of that, a fire elemental could peek out from the elemental plane of fire through a candle or torch. Because everyone likes to see, a setting not using electric style lighting everywhere allows fire to assess things like “I’ve got a good idea who’s in there” or “the sacrifice is still alive & safe in a cell”

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