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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Revlid on October 17, 2011, 11:40:13 AM
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So, I just noticed that the Refinement ability has no "Musts".
Therefore, I could technically take it without having any other kind of spellcasting ability.
Useless for new elements and specializations, of course, but what about enchanted items? Could I use this loophole to produce a potion-brewer with no other overt spellcasting abilities?
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How are you going to create the spell stored in the potion?
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How are you going to create the spell stored in the potion?
The same way as normal. Nowhere does it state you actually need the ability to cast a spell stored in an enchanted item/potion, just that the effect of the potion is equivalent to a spell with a strength/complexity equal to your Lore. You can make Evocation-potions without even having Channeling. As written, you don't need any spellcasting abilities to make enchanted items, just some open item slots... Which Refinement gives you.
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Personally, I disagree - enchanted items and potions are in the thaumaturgy section. Not under Refinement. That said, I probably would allow one PC to take Refinement for items he uses that another PC creates.
But whatever works for your group.
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You're bringing up some long-standing crafting arguments here. I'm not going to jump back on those arguments. I'm going to point out that you have nothing to refine. Per the Description:
Experienced spellcasters learn in time how to refine and focus their abilities, gaining greater strength and diversity.
You're not an experienced spellcaster and you have no abilities to refine. It's not a Must but it is pretty glaringly obvious logic.
As always, everything is up to the GM. Anyone trying to slip that past me as a GM though would get asked "Are you going for munchkin of the year or do I really look that freaking stupid? No."
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You can make Evocation-potions without even having Channeling.
I'm not sure what you meant here, given that a character cannot have both Evocation and Channeling. If you meant either Thaumaturgy or Ritual instead of Channeling, could you point the way to a reference to support this position? The only way to make potions is by having one of the following: Thaumaturgy, Ritual: Crafting, or Ritual: [Thematic Subtype].
Did you mean that a character with Thaumaturgy doesn't need Evocation or Channeling to make potions with an elemental theme? This is true, but it certainly doesn't support the rest of your argument. A character with Thaumaturgy or Ritual: Crafting can make a potion with any theme, since potion-making is a subset of Crafting, and Thaumaturgy is essentially Ritual: [All Subtypes] (with some bonuses). A character with Ritual: [Thematic Subtype] can make potions within that thematic subtype, but not other potions. The elemental themes of Evocation are perfectly valid thematic subtypes for Ritualists; for example, a Fire specialist might have Channeling: Fire or Ritual: Pyromancy or both.
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Why couldn't you do it this way for special items that your character has access too? I mean it would be perfect for batman... "Where did you get such wonderfull toys?".
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First because Batman is a Plain Mortal and taking a Power would lose him that. A simple resources Stunt could be used to pull out the old Bat Shark Repellent when necessary.
Second, because if you want to go that route with a supernatural, you need to take at least Rituals (Crafting). Refinement has to have something to refine. Personally, I don't allow Ritual (Crafting) characters but your GM may.
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I'm away from books right now, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say no.
I'm pretty sure that by the RAW Crafting is an application of Thaumaturgy.
I'm even more sure that by the RAI Crafting is an application of Thaumaturgy.
I'm absolutely certain that giving Focused Practitioner Crafters a 2 refresh discount on their powers is a bad idea from a balance perspective.
But I know that some people will allow Refinement to be taken without spellcasting and used to maintain Enchanted Items made by others.
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You're bringing up some long-standing crafting arguments here. I'm not going to jump back on those arguments. I'm going to point out that you have nothing to refine.
I'm not using the Refinement power to represent refinement. I'm using it to represent pure crafting/potionbrewing ability.
I can take Claws without them actually, literally being claws. I can take Wings without having any literal wings. Breath Weapon has been canonically used to represent thrown handfuls of burning faeces.
I don't think this particular counts-as is a massive stretch.
As always, everything is up to the GM. Anyone trying to slip that past me as a GM though would get asked "Are you going for munchkin of the year or do I really look that freaking stupid? No."
...But if I took Refinement instead, for one refresh more, which gives me all those benefits and the ability to use Thaumaturgy, this would be totally balanced? I think it's obvious that someone doing this wouldn't be doing it for the power.
I'm not sure what you meant here, given that a character cannot have both Evocation and Channeling. If you meant either Thaumaturgy or Ritual instead of Channeling, could you point the way to a reference to support this position? The only way to make potions is by having one of the following: Thaumaturgy, Ritual: Crafting, or Ritual: [Thematic Subtype].
Uh, no. I can get potions with enchanted item slots. I can get enchanted item slots with Evocation or Channeling just as well as I can with Thaumaturgy or Ritual.
Did you mean that a character with Thaumaturgy doesn't need Evocation or Channeling to make potions with an elemental theme? This is true, but it certainly doesn't support the rest of your argument.
No, I mean that a character with just Thaumaturgy doesn't need any kind of Evocation ability (be it Evocation or Channeling) to store Evocation effects in an enchanted item. Similarly, a character with just Evocation doesn't need any kind of Thaumaturgic ability (be it Thaumaturgy or Ritual) to store Thaumaturgic effects in an enchanted item. So I don't need Evo to make Evo potions, and I don't need Thaum to make Thaum potions... What's stopping me from being a pure potions-brewer?
I'm pretty sure that by the RAW Crafting is an application of Thaumaturgy.
You don't need Thaumaturgy to get slots for enchanted items. You can get them just by purchasing Evocation, or even Channelling. Therefore, Thaumaturgy nor any variant of it is a necessary prerequisite for crafting enchanted items.
I'm absolutely certain that giving Focused Practitioner Crafters a 2 refresh discount on their powers is a bad idea from a balance perspective.
It's not a discount. They're only receiving enchanted items and/or potions. No Thaumaturgy, no Evocation. Given that Ritual is only one point of refresh more, and gives you just as many item slots as well as limited thaumaturgy, I don't think this idea can be called overpowered.
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Here's the thing Revlid. I might be ok with someone taking refinement to represent items that someone else made, however it's been well established that in order to create your own items in play you must have Ritual or Thaumaturgy (or the GM's ok). Crafting of any items or foci is a form of Thaumaturgy.
A long time ago we spoke with Fred on a similar idea and he said that when one has Channeling/Evocation but no Ritual/Thaumaturgy then it's assumed that you've gotten help making what you've got or have intuitively created something through use, but you can't make any changes to what you've got without GM fiat. What that tells me is that the creation of items is solely Thaumaturgy's domain.
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Oops, made a slight mistake in my last post here. It's a 1 refresh discount, not a 2 refresh one. I forgot about Ritual's item slots.
Now, let me explain why you face such opposition with this idea.
One of the most powerful and "munchkin-friendly" builds in this game is a Focused Practitioner with Ritual (Crafting) and a pile of Refinement.
Ritual (Crafting) offers absolutely nothing that your proposed interpretation of Refinement does not. And it costs an additional point of Refresh.
By letting people use Refinement in this way, you essentially give that build an extra point of Refresh for free.
Given that that build is arguably game-breaking as-is, this is not a good thing.
PS: I don't think that Evocation lets you make Enchanted Items. Give me a moment, I'll find some links.
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A brief comment supporting your side: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18840.msg842780.html#msg842780 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18840.msg842780.html#msg842780)
A brief question and answer in which the game's creator supports my side, with some hesitation: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23712.15.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23712.15.html)
For what it's worth, I have no problem with Channellers having foci. Not sure about the RAW here, but it seems only reasonable.
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Ritual (Crafting) offers absolutely nothing that your proposed interpretation of Refinement does not. And it costs an additional point of Refresh.
Why on earth would you take Ritual (Crafting)? Why not just take Ritual (thematic) and fluff out all your enchanted items as being based off that theme? That's what I'd do, if I wanted to power-grub. Ritual (Demonology) would give me access to damn near any effect I wanted, provided I gave it an infernal skin.
"Pure Refinement" is only free refresh for the players who are unimaginative enough to miss out on the potential of a thematic Ritual. For everyone else, it's less optimal than taking Ritual.
PS: I don't think that Evocation lets you make Enchanted Items. Give me a moment, I'll find some links.
"Item Slots. Evocation comes with two free Focus Item Slots (page 278). You can design the items that fit into these slots now, or later on during play. A single Focus Item Slot may be traded in for two Enchanted Item Slots (page 279). You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)."
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You can use the focus slots from Evocation for Enchanted Items. Everyone agrees on that.
The question is, can you do that if you don't have some level of Thaumaturgy to make Enchanted Items with in the first place? Not everyone agrees on that.
PS: The Crafter build isn't really intended to cast spells. Its power comes from its items. So avoiding possible thematic limitations is well worth losing the chance to cast rituals.
See, the limitations on diabolism are up to your GM/group. If you let someone just do whatever they please with a demonic skin, then you're right. But that can't be relied on. And people often look around for ways to nerf crafting. So you want something that definitely works, regardless of interpretation.
PPS: IIRC, the coffee lady in YS has Ritual (Crafting). I swear, it's a real thing.
PPPS: It actually might not be worth 1 refresh to upgrade from just Crafting to full Thaumaturgy. After all, each Refinement is 40+ shifts worth of items for your standard optimized Crafter.
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Why on earth would you take Ritual (Crafting)? Why not just take Ritual (thematic) and fluff out all your enchanted items as being based off that theme? That's what I'd do, if I wanted to power-grub. Ritual (Demonology) would give me access to damn near any effect I wanted, provided I gave it an infernal skin.
"Pure Refinement" is only free refresh for the players who are unimaginative enough to miss out on the potential of a thematic Ritual. For everyone else, it's less optimal than taking Ritual.
This really isn't a good rules argument. Whether or not you like ritual crafting or not, it is a RAW power, and it does everything you are proposing refinement does. Since it is exactly what you want, RAW, and costs 1 refresh more it kinda pulls some credence from your argument.
I would assume that Evocators can have enchanted items using this very logic.
YS, IIRC, stipulates that Channeling/Evocation allows you to have focus items. Ergo, it's possible to have a focus item, no? That's not connecting A to B, that's A to A. I'm not sure I'd allow you to change it once you establish it, tho. Regardless, the point is, with the item slot comes the item, as it were. No point in getting you a slot that you can't ever fill.
However like he says no changing it in play.
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Yes, the lady on YS387 has Ritual (Crafting). She's chosen a functional limitation on her Thaumaturgy, like Ritual (Summoning) or Ritual (Veils). She's also missing two enchanted item slots, but whatever.
Using a thematic limitation will still allow you to craft (if crafting were a thing that happened anywhere but off-screen or as fluff). This is noted right at the start of the "Thematic Thaumaturgy".
"All the types of thaumaturgy listed so far are divided along functional lines. Plenty of spellcasters focus their specializations by function—you have divinators, wardsmen, crafters, summoners, and the like. But just as often, thaumaturgists specialize not along functional lines, but instead along thematic lines. A thematic specialization looks at the subject matter in which all the various functions of thaumaturgy are applied—an ectomancer will be particularly effective with summoning, binding, divining, veiling, warding, crafting, transforming, disrupting, and transporting ghosts and other non-demonic spirits, for example."
Diabolism refers to spellcraft that uses a demonic component. Therefore, my craft involves using demonic ichor to etch out runes, heating metal in hellfire, binding minor demons inside the fabric of an object, and using ancient infernal recipes bargained away from bound devils to create potions. I'm going to be stinking of demons, which should lead to decent compels, and I can still craft for pretty much any suitably demonic effect I want... While also being able to summon demons or place demonic curses or set up wards against demons or the holy.
RAW, you don't need any other spellcasting abilities to make an enchanted item, thanks to everything happening off-screen and thaumaturgy not being actually necessary.
I'm going to see what the GM says, anyway. This isn't even for my character; it's for someone who wants to play a twitchy, drug-blasted alchemist. I'm going to be playing a demonologist spirit eater (Ritual: Diabolism with the Mimic Abilities power - bind 'em and chow down, cue the crazy).
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Diabolism ... can still craft for pretty much any suitably demonic effect I want... While also being able to summon demons or place demonic curses or set up wards against demons or the holy.
That right there is the limitation imposed by taking a themed power, as opposed to a functional. Like to see you whip out a handkerchief full of sunlight, or brew anything remotely remedial. Or even half the possibilities for a focused enchanter, or full spectrum Wizard (who aren't just better [subjective, I know], but are far more stylish). Rarely is one form of Ritual or Channeling out right better than the other, which is sort of the point; it is all priced the same for a reason.
RAW, you don't need any other spellcasting abilities to make an enchanted item, thanks to everything happening off-screen and thaumaturgy not being actually necessary.
Because carving out a piece of wood and engraving it with runes is oh-so fun for all the table. Enchanted/Focus items are rarely made on screen for anything short of a solo game, for practical reasons. This doesn't mean you can use that to get around the fact it is a role-playing game.
I'm not quite sure what this comment was aimed at, and for fear of taking it out of context I'll leave it at that. I think the above is both vague enough, and thus generally applicable enough, to help out. Especially in relation to the original topic; about whether or not refinement should be enough justification to own enchanted items, (it isn't in my opinion).
I'm going to see what the GM says,
Ultimately that is what it'll come down to. Those on these forums can only offer their opinions, advice and RAW, which is well worth heeding. However at the end of the day it is down to each individual group to play it how they wish. So long as everyone at the table is having fun there isn't a problem.
I'm going to be playing a demonologist spirit eater (Ritual: Diabolism with the Mimic Abilities power - bind 'em and chow down, cue the crazy).
Nice character idea. Ripe with compel ideas. Best hope you don't summon something out of your league accidently. Well, you might hope to do so if you're particularly fond of fate points. Good luck.
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I would allow someone to take refinement for crafting if the type of crafting they were doing wasn't magical... like you make healing salves through herbal medicine. Or you built gun parts and upgrades. Id have you gain Non-Enchanted item slots that can up a weapon or be used as a herbal remedy ect. Also the roles required wouldn't be discipline, conviction, and lore. Probably Discipline, Construction, and Scholarship. I'd allow it in my game as a house rule but I'd watch the person doing it like a hawk to make sure there was no magical things going on. Otherwise you'd have to take a form of magic to get it done. But that of course is just me.
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I would allow someone to take refinement for crafting if the type of crafting they were doing wasn't magical... like you make healing salves through herbal medicine. Or you built gun parts and upgrades. Id have you gain Non-Enchanted item slots that can up a weapon or be used as a herbal remedy ect. Also the roles required wouldn't be discipline, conviction, and lore. Probably Discipline, Construction, and Scholarship. I'd allow it in my game as a house rule but I'd watch the person doing it like a hawk to make sure there was no magical things going on. Otherwise you'd have to take a form of magic to get it done. But that of course is just me.
You can do all of that through stunts without ever breaking a PM template, without having a slot limit imposed, and without using a power in a way it was not intended to work.
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That right there is the limitation imposed by taking a themed power, as opposed to a functional. Like to see you whip out a handkerchief full of sunlight, or brew anything remotely remedial.
Actually I do not see why not. Themetically it may not be similar, but it can be functionally remedial.
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Tired of arguing, going to try to stick to inarguable facts now.
1. The limits of thematic specializations are highly variable depending on the table. As such, Ritual (Diabolism) might be vastly better than Ritual (Crafting) or vastly worse. It depends.
2. The RAW are ambiguous here. You can rule that Channellers cannot craft foci without contradicting them.
Channeling gives focus slots. But it doesn't explicitly say that you can use them without Thaumaturgy. The rules for using them are listed under Thaumaturgy. So one can make an argument that the focus slots from Channelling/Evocation are entirely worthless without some level of thaumaturgy.
I'd rather not make that argument, but it is make-able.
3. You yourself called this a loophole in the first post. Some people, including myself, dislike loopholes and don't want to have them around.
I would further contend that loopholes are generally not very interesting in a system like this. They're a lot of fun in Magic: The Gathering, but this is a different game in many ways. But I'm moving into opinion again now, so I'm going to stop talking.
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As Sanctaphrax noted, crafting is specifically a form of thaumaturgy (see the first sentence under Crafting on YS278).
Since it also goes on to state takes repetitive attuning, I'm generally will to allow Channellers to create items for spells they can cast. I'm also willing to be talked into one PC attuning items (with spells he can cast) for another with the second PC paying the refresh cost. (I'll also compel a lack of access to the item(s) if / when I think appropriate.) But neither of these are technically RAW.
Getting enchanted items without someone being capable and willing to cast the spell is a bit much for me to swallow. ;)
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Regarding the discussion of Crafting, the RAW does explicitly grant all of the 'basic' spellcasting powers access to Crafting. Those powers grant slots, and states that you can fill those slots with the stuff described in the Crafting section. In mechanics terms, each of these powers in effect comes with a 'Crafting' trapping that allows you to use a limited version of Thaumaturgy in exactly the same way that buying certain stunts allows you to make use of the trappings of skills that you might have no training in. I don't think this is a loophole at all, I think it was deliberately written into the rules. If the game designers had intended to only allow those with the Crafting specialization of Thaumaturgy to possess enchanted items and focii, then they would have only granted item slots to that single power.
Yes, you could create a house rule that strips this ability, however given that the cost of those abilities includes a Refinement worth of focii, I believe you would need to adjust the price of those abilities. It isn't reasonable or fair (in my opinion) that someone who has Ritual(Crafting) or Thaumaturgy gains an extra -1 refresh worth of benefit from the purchase of Channeling or Evocation than someone who doesn't have any form of Thaumaturgy. It would be rather like saying that someone with Strength powers can't use their bonuses without also possessing an equivalent Toughness power, because otherwise they'd break their own fists. My assumption is that Strength includes just enough 'Toughness' trapping to ignore that.
Note that there is also nothing in the RAW that prevents you from spending some of your slots on Crafting focus items that improve the strength of the enchanted items you possess through your item slots ... though I would certainly support a house rule that restricted focus items to elements/functions/themes you have 'full' training in. One thing you can't do without 'full' training in Crafting is have specializations from Refinement applied to Crafting. (I have argued elsewhere that you can't buy Refinements without having at least Sorceror-level magic, but that's a seperate discussion.)
Moving back to the OP, what keeps you from taking 'naked' Refinements (ie, without taking one of the basic Spellcraft powers first) is that you are limited to buying powers appropriate to your template and High Concept. While you are not in theory prohibited from creating a custom template that allows you to do this, I would throw my support behind a GM who vetoed such a template because it does not mesh with the spirit of the game (in my opinion).
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Regarding the discussion of Crafting, the RAW does explicitly grant all of the 'basic' spellcasting powers access to Crafting.
This is factually incorrect.
Your post contains good arguments that it should be the case, and pretty well sums up the reasons that I allow foci without any form of Thaumaturgy.
Nonetheless, there is ambiguity in the rules. There is no explicit statement either way. It is possible that the focus slots that a Channeler has are totally worthless. Not desirable, I think, but possible.
PS: Writing about the rules without my books on hand is surprisingly stressful. I always feel as though I'm going to make a mistake...
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Between the books and the words of Fred it is clear that any of the casting powers grant you crafted items. The ability to craft said items is specifically a branch of thaumaturgy though. What this means is that any character who has casting abilities has foci (and I would argue enchanted items as well, but that's my logic, not specifically RAW) but does not have the ability to change, create, or refine these items without justification to the table, and GM permission.
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I would not allow a player choosing Refinement, without first selecting any other suitable Spellcraft (just based on that is not how I see that the power should be used).
Even though there are no "musts" in the text, I do see that it states that the character gets additional items - that implies that he has to have some to begin with when taking the power.
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Or, gain two additional Focus Item Slots (or
four additional Enchanted Item Slots). For
more details on focus items and enchanted
items, see page 278.
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This is factually incorrect.
I disagree. To be specific, anyone who spends -3 refresh on Evocation gets:
"Item Slots. Evocation comes with two free Focus Item Slots (page 278). You can design the items that fit into these slots now, or later on during play. A single Focus Item Slot may be traded in for two Enchanted Item Slots (page 279). You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)."
The other powers (Channeling and Ritual) grant this same capability. Let's break it down:
1) You get two slots.
2) You can fit items into these slots, using the Crafting rules on page 279.
3) You can do this at any time, including during play.
Note the complete absence of the words even implying that any other power is needed to make use of this capability, or that you must know a Wizard who can make the items, or anything else. The slots and the ability to fill them are granted right there as one of the basic capabilities of the power.
Further, if you read the section on Crafting, you will find that it says the following:
"While crafting things like focus items and potions is considered a type of thaumaturgy, it isn’t something that has a very active presence in these game mechanics."
And
"To avoid that boring repetition, the game handles crafting through the application of stunts. Wizard characters get a number of “slots” for different kinds of items"
See that bit about crafting being handled as a function of stunts? The 'stunts' they are talking about are those granted as part of each of the basic spellcasting powers; it even mentions the slots granted by those powers in that context.
So the Spellcasting powers state that you can create items as part of the power, and the Crafting rules state that crafting is a function of stunts that grant items via slots. How is this ambiguous?
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I would not allow a player choosing Refinement, without first selecting any other suitable Spellcraft (just based on that is not how I see that the power should be used).
Agreed. This is easily dealt with by not allowing any custom templates that grant access to Refinement without also requiring Spellcraft.
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The one thing that confuses me is the game designer's statements, particularly the one I mentioned above. If the intent was that taking any spellcasting abilities grants you the ability to craft items then why would Fred say that he's not sure that he'd allow a channeler to change their items after they created them?
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The one thing that confuses me is the game designer's statements, particularly the one I mentioned above. If the intent was that taking any spellcasting abilities grants you the ability to craft items then why would Fred say that he's not sure that he'd allow a channeler to change their items after they created them?
Because Fred is thinking like a GM there rather than a player. Thinking about something that has the potential to get silly is usually a good idea.
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Look, this is not a matter of opinion.
The book doesn't say that you can make items with Evocation.
It implies it pretty heavily, but it also implies the opposite by saying that Crafting is a form of Thaumaturgy.
It says that you get slots, which can be used for X and Y. It doesn't say that you can make X and Y if you couldn't otherwise.
You're making good arguments, but good arguments would not be necessary if there was a statement saying you could make items with Thaumaturgy. Which there isn't.
So please acknowledge that.
PS: As I've said before, templates are not a good way to balance things. That approach turns the rules into a minefield for people not using the canon templates. If you want it to be impossible to take Refinement without other spellcasting powers, make it so. Don't try to be sneaky about it.
PPS: Iago's quote actually says that he would partially allow foci and probably wouldn't allow enchanted items. I raise this not because I think his opinion is particularly important, but because I think that the ambiguous nature of his response shows that looking for certainty in what he wrote is foolish.
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Yeah, besides, Iago's usually pretty clear that his opinions are just that and not precedent-setting WoI.
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The one thing that confuses me is the game designer's statements, particularly the one I mentioned above. If the intent was that taking any spellcasting abilities grants you the ability to craft items then why would Fred say that he's not sure that he'd allow a channeler to change their items after they created them?
Probably because of this bit here:
Further, if you read the section on Crafting, you will find that it says the following:
"While crafting things like focus items and potions is considered a type of thaumaturgy, it isn’t something that has a very active presence in these game mechanics."
Channeling isn't a form of Thaumaturgy, it's a form of Evocation and crafting things (as stated above) is based on Thaumaturgy. It's like the difference between knowing how to operate something and how to build it and have the necessary materials. sure, I can drive a car and I know the theory behind how it's built and how it operates, but could I build one? Nope.
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EDIT: Double Post fail ???
Sorry.
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Refinement as a stretch: if your Gm allows it you can do anything you want. If you come looking for opinions on a forum, especially this one (where people debate game balance all day long ...yeah thats mainly me:P), you are likely going to get a lot of flak/arguement/negative opinion/rebutle etc.
Refinement for non casters as is: Nope. Not citing spellcasting as a must was simply an oversight in my opinion. That or the devs/playtesters would prefer some common sense over munchkining and rules lawyering. (not pointing any fingers at all)
Question: Not really on topic but similarly inspired by the topic.
Can a player or NPC without a spellcasting high concept or power have a lawbreaker stunt? The only two this applies to is time travel and outer planar stuff. Both of which can happen without the player or PC casting the spell to inititiate such actions. One can be cast into the time stream or planes...one can research the outisde. Spells are not needed.
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Can a player or NPC without a spellcasting high concept or power have a lawbreaker stunt? The only two this applies to is time travel and outer planar stuff. Both of which can happen without the player or PC casting the spell to inititiate such actions. One can be cast into the time stream or planes...one can research the outisde. Spells are not needed.
In those cases, I don't see why not. Since neither necessarily require a spell be done by the player, you could allow them to take the +1/+2 to any unquestionably and directly applicable roll. You'd have to extend this to spellcasters too though or you'd never hear the end of it.
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In those cases, I don't see why not. Since neither necessarily require a spell be done by the player, you could allow them to take the +1/+2 to any unquestionably and directly applicable roll. You'd have to extend this to spellcasters too though or you'd never hear the end of it.
Kinda what I was thinking.
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Pretty sure the RAW specifies that only spellcasting rolls are boosted. But that's easily ignored.
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Look, this is not a matter of opinion.
The book doesn't say that you can make items with Evocation.
I'm afraid I still disagree with your opinion on what this, given that it is stated as part of the power description for Evocation, etc. This argument strikes me as exactly the same as the following:
(A) I use my Footwork stunt to use my Fists as defense against his punch.
(B) Sorry, you can't do that. The rules say Athletics is used for defending.
(A) Yes, but it says right there under Footwork that I can substitue Fists!
(B) Sorry, the rules clearly say that dodging attacks is a function of Athletics.
It implies it pretty heavily, but it also implies the opposite by saying that Crafting is a form of Thaumaturgy.
Yes, for purposes of specializations.
You're making good arguments, but good arguments would not be necessary if there was a statement saying you could make items with Thaumaturgy. Which there isn't.
I disagree again. It states under the Thaum/Crafting rules that Crafting is governed by use of stunts. This is different than every other Thaum specialization.
PS: As I've said before, templates are not a good way to balance things. That approach turns the rules into a minefield for people not using the canon templates. If you want it to be impossible to take Refinement without other spellcasting powers, make it so. Don't try to be sneaky about it.
While I think that templates are a good way of packaging power requirements and options that make sense for a given character concept, I'm not opposed to the rest of this comment at all. That said, it is technically a house rule (though a good one) to declare requirements to Refinement, whereas its not a house rule to insist of vetting of custom templates and ensuring that powers taken fit with template and high concept. So it depends on your group tolerance for house rules or preferences against them.
PPS: Iago's quote actually says that he would partially allow foci and probably wouldn't allow enchanted items. I raise this not because I think his opinion is particularly important, but because I think that the ambiguous nature of his response shows that looking for certainty in what he wrote is foolish.
Ambiguous? He states that the rules say that Evocation/Channeling grants focus items, therefore they can have focus items. I see no ambiguity in that quote whatsoever, and it's basically the same statement I made.
I do find it odd that he later suggests that Enchanted Items are a much more borderline case, since those same rules state (under Evocation/Channeling) that you may swap those focus slots for enchanted item slots. (Though I agree with his suggested limitation that Enchanted Items chosen must fit within the powers known, which would nix the 'standard' Crafter build completely.)
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(Though I agree with his suggested limitation that Enchanted Items chosen must fit within the powers known, which would nix the 'standard' Crafter build completely.)
The part in bold is wrong. Ritual grants access to a single subtype of Thaumaturgy. Crafting is one of the "functional" subtypes of Thaumaturgy, as opposed to being one of the "thematic" subtypes, like Ectomancy. Ritual based on a thematic subtype gains access to all functional areas of Thaumaturgy, but is restricted to the specified theme. Ritual based on a functional subtype gains access to all thematic areas of Thaumaturgy, but is restricted to the specified function. Ritual: Crafting therefore permits the creation of any enchanted item or potion based off any conceivable Thaumaturgical theme, which is "limited" by your imagination and nothing else.
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Pretty sure the RAW specifies that only spellcasting rolls are boosted. But that's easily ignored.
You're quite correct. That was/is part of my dillemna.
I just need to figure a way to make the lawbreaker power apply to a noncaster in some fashion...otherwise the refresh is completely wasted. I know lawbreaking is bad, but if a non caster can get it the non caster should in some small ways be able to benefit from it also.
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Hm...
You know what?
I'm no longer willing to continue this. I stand by everything I said, but I no longer have the energy to keep up the argument.
Maybe it's because I have a cold, I dunno.
Sorry if this is disappointing to anyone.
Becq, I guess this means you win, insofar as winning is meaningful.
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Odd to think that you would get foci slots and therefore enchanted item slots with evocation, if you can't make them....but also seems to make thaumaturgy less important.
You fine folks can do as you please, but evocation is described as brute force magic. Thaumaturgy is more or less "everything else". If it were my game I'd say powering enchanted items or recharging them is possible with just evocation, but to build the enchanted item...I'd require someone with ritual, thaum, or something similar to make said item. Focus items aren't so much magical items as things that help you focus your energies. maybe they are charged with some magical energy to help, but it has no otehr effect...therefore I maintain the evocation can create those and those alone.
Such is just my take on it.