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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on April 02, 2023, 01:18:22 AM

Title: The Darkhallow
Post by: Yuillegan on April 02, 2023, 01:18:22 AM
I think the Darkhallow has been overlooked in the series for the significance of it's event, it's design, it's intended purpose and potential.

Upon re-reading Dead Beat for the hundreth time, it really struck me the power of the Darkhallow.

From the exchange with Queen Mab:
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Know this, mortal: Should Kemmler's heirs acquire the knowledge bound within the Word, they will be in a position to gather up such power as the world has not seen in many thousands of years."
 "What? How?"
 "Kemmler was"—Mab's eyes grew distant, as if in memory— "a madman. A monster. But brilliant. He learned how to bind to his will not only dead flesh, but shades—to rend them asunder and devour them to feed his own power. It was the secret of the strength that allowed him to defy all the White Council together."
 I added two and two and got four. "The heirs want to call up the ancient spirits," I breathed. "And then devour them for power."
 Mab's deep-green eyes almost seemed to glow with intensity. "Kemmler himself attempted it, but the Council struck him down before he could finish."
 I swallowed. "What happens if one of his heirs is able to do it?"
 "The heir would gain power such as has not been wielded by mortal hands in the memory of your race," Mab said.
 "The Darkhallow," I said. I rubbed at my eyes. "That's what it is. A ritual, tomorrow night. Halloween. They all want to be the one to make themselves into a junior-league god."


So we learn what the Darkhallow is - a ritual of ascension. And yet, also not. Harry says it's more a spell than a rite - the difference I seem to remember is where the power comes from. The destruction and consuming of spirits by the performer imbues them with the power of a "junior-league" god, as Dresden says. Mab says that kind of power hasn't been wielded by mortal hands in the memory of the human race. At face value, that could be 10-100 thousand years. But I think Dresden only later realises that he might have underestimated how much power was in play.

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Cowl kept on chanting, and I saw his body arch with tension. Over the next minute or so, he actually, physically rose above the ground, until his boots were three or four inches in the air. His voice had become part of the wild storm, part of the dark energy, and it rolled and boomed and echoed all around us. I began to understand the kind of power we were dealing with. It was power as deep as an ocean, and as broad as the sky. It was dark and lethal and horrible and beautiful, and Cowl was about to take it all in. The strength it would give him would not make him a match for the entire White Council. It would put him in a league so far beyond them that their strength would mean virtually nothing.

It was power enough to change the world. To reshape it after one's own liking.

So I think we can see it dawns on Harry that should Cowl succeed here, the world will change. There will be a new order to things, and Cowl, or rather the thing that Cowl would have become, would be in charge.

Even Corpsetaker said something about granting Harry autonomy and a principality of his choice, effectively making Harry a lord or king under him. Probably of a good portion of the USA, maybe all of it.

That's the kind of world-shaping power in play.

What's curious is what the other supernatural nations would have done. We know that Cowl (or whoever had succeeded, but probably Cowl) would have wiped out the Senior Council and effectively destroyed the White Council while the Red Court would have cleaned up the dregs. Without the White Council, humanity would have been less protected and more open and brazen attacks would have occurred. The smaller Accords nations certainly would have gone to ground, or served or been wiped out. Vadderung and Ferrovax likely would have retreated unless forced to fight, and I suspect they might have waited for a more certain victory. The Vamps and others likely would have served (or at least allied) with this new entity, which we must assume is much stronger than the Lords of the Outer Night (Red King inclusive), and Drakul etc. The Jade Court would just have waited things out I imagine, given that's all they apparently do...I also can't see the Faeries just lying down. But they might have stayed back. This being would have been beyond Mab and Titania, per WOJ. Probably not beyond the Mothers but it's hard to say how close. But the Mother's don't do direct fights like that - although curiously given the conversation with Kumori (and the theory that one of Mother Winter's aspects is that of Death), one might assume Cowl (as a god) would have attempted to kill Mother Winter in order to "end death" as Kumori puts it. Can't imagine Mab would have take that lying down. Then again, Cowl seems to work with Outsiders so they might have given him the opening he would have needed.

We also know that Ethniu was ready to go with an army and her superweapon and nigh-invulnerability. We know that The Outsiders had a serious assault or two ready to go, led by He Who Walks Before. He Who Walks Beside also clearly has many interweaving goals, which the Darkhallow might be linked to. We know that Nicodemus had several plans on the go, some of which involved stealing high-value supernatural relics, and corrupting powerful people including the Archive. Not to mention Drakul clearly also has some similar operations to Nicodemus going on. My guess is Nicodemus, Drakul etc. would have gone to ground. Maybe paid their respects eventually whilst working away at their larger goals. I doubt they care who rules - I think their plans are larger and far worse than ruling the world.

Ethniu likely would have challenged any new Power. I have speculated before on who might win that and it's quite hard to judge. I can't see Cowl and Ethniu working together (unless they already had been...which is possible, if not likely). But would they have stayed allies? In theory Ethniu all armored up and with the Eye of Balor should be stronger. But the way it's worded in Dead Beat makes you think that Cowl would have been stronger. A dark god of necromancy, likely. Easily able to make his own army I think. I suspect he would have had the power to pierce through the armor, given the requirement to get through Titanic Bronze is either enough power, or power from the right place (infernal or celestial). I don't see how he would counter the Eye, but Cowl is very clever and might have planned for such a thing. More likely he would have avoided a straight fight if possible and tried to work with her to suppress the mortals.

Which then gives us the mortal issue. Would Cowl have been strong enough outright to dominate all mortal opposition? Armies of the dead might suggest that, in a zombie apocalypse type way. One only has to watch a few zombie movies or tv shows to see how quickly civilisation would crumble - although mostly infection seems more dangerous than merely being summoned. Not sure how humans would deal with spectres like the Corpsetaker summoned. But humans do have other organisations that protect them like the Librum Bellum - the MIB. One expects they wouldn't have just rolled over, and might even have strategies for just such an event. Not to mention, we have seen that Alfred can probably handle even very powerful entities if he's close enough (although he still needs the Warden to help bind them). And that's just one thing - who knows how many other such countermeasures exist.

Yet Dresden, and the Wardens, the Necromancers and even Fae all seemed very convinced that should a dark god emerge, that was it for civilisation. This suggests it would be a far worse event than most, a being perhaps far stronger than Ethniu. Which might mean such a creature might be a lot harder to stop. And maybe not such a junior-league god, as Dresden thinks.

One wonders how the Outsiders would have dealt with it too. My guess is that just like with Ethniu, Cowl succeeding at the Darkhallow was merely an opportunity for the Outsiders to exploit. Creating the right kind of conditions for their version of the apocalypse. In the end, I think the Outsiders are ultimately the biggest threat to everything given they torture and destroy and consume universes, and want to do that to the entire multiverse of Creation. Or so it seems.

But it was still a really big event, should it have occcured. And I highly doubt that Cowl won't attempt another Darkhallow (although one thinks he might want to pick another city, just logically). Even the name Darkhallow (Dark-holy) gives you an idea of how big an event it was. Something curious we have seen (only briefly) is the power of holiness, or unholiness as the case may be. The Sleeper managed to consecrate the ground of it's Church. Normally, this is reserved for the White God and other major religions (I assume). Presumably, each of the varying religions in their era had this power too (Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Japanese, Sumerian, Chinese, Irish, etc) but due to current circumstances do not have this power any more. Would Cowl have had this power? Could he have consecrated his own special areas?

Food for thought.

In any case, do you think we will see another Darkhallow attempt? By Cowl or some other? Even Kemmler (should he somehow return, assuming he hasn't already)? If it occurs again, would the BAT kick off?
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Mira on April 02, 2023, 10:23:31 AM
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In any case, do you think we will see another Darkhallow attempt? By Cowl or some other? Even Kemmler (should he somehow return, assuming he hasn't already)? If it occurs again, would the BAT kick off?

  Let's not forget that Darkhallow is one of the things that runs through desperate Harry's mind along with trying to call back Lasciel's coin as worst, worser, and least worse option of becoming Winter Knight as he laid on his broken back in his office in Changes, to save little Maggie.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on April 02, 2023, 11:15:27 AM
I think that The Darkhallow strength is dependent upon the circumstances, Halloween is a peak time to perform it where you can draw in the most power. Do it any other time it will give you a power up but not to God level, more in the Denarian/Winter Knight level. There may be other factors which affect its power, such as the presence of The Erl King in the mortal world.

Kemmler might have already done such a ‘weak’ Darkhallow, he was so much stronger than the average wizard, but unable to achieve the circumstances for a full Darkhallow during his lifetimes. The Erl King was in the 19th C Wildfae, by Dresden’s time he’s sworn fealty to Mab. This may have been to protect him from being summoned by Kemmler and Nameless - certainly when the latter was paperclipped into Winter.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Mira on April 02, 2023, 12:24:05 PM
I think that The Darkhallow strength is dependent upon the circumstances, Halloween is a peak time to perform it where you can draw in the most power. Do it any other time it will give you a power up but not to God level, more in the Denarian/Winter Knight level. There may be other factors which affect its power, such as the presence of The Erl King in the mortal world.

Kemmler might have already done such a ‘weak’ Darkhallow, he was so much stronger than the average wizard, but unable to achieve the circumstances for a full Darkhallow during his lifetimes. The Erl King was in the 19th C Wildfae, by Dresden’s time he’s sworn fealty to Mab. This may have been to protect him from being summoned by Kemmler and Nameless - certainly when the latter was paperclipped into Winter.

Darkhallow might be something that Harry is forced to go to in the BAT when things really hit the fan.  If he is still Winter Knight at that time as well as being a star born with a little soul fire mixed in for good measure, he will have the juice to do it.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on April 02, 2023, 01:30:03 PM
It’s Checkov’s Darkhallow

It might require a Starborn for peak effect, which is why Drakul wanted it BUT Harry would only use it if it didn’t harm innocents. Ripping the Lifeforce from say a Fomor Army in achieving it would help ESPECIALLY if he has the Blackstaff to shield from the harmful effects and the Spear to maximise success. We have literally seen Eb rip the life from a hundred Red Court flunkies in the same way the Darkhallow would.

Any innocents could hide behind the Placard THAT would shield them from the Darkhallow as would the Carpenters House.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Yuillegan on April 02, 2023, 08:45:16 PM
  Let's not forget that Darkhallow is one of the things that runs through desperate Harry's mind along with trying to call back Lasciel's coin as worst, worser, and least worse option of becoming Winter Knight as he laid on his broken back in his office in Changes, to save little Maggie.
True, but I think given Harry took the Winter Knight option - which hardly seems comparable tbh - Jim has written that story line out for now. Which isn't too say there isn't a Harry who didn't end up performing a mini-darkhallow (given the proper one needed to be on Halloween).

I think that The Darkhallow strength is dependent upon the circumstances, Halloween is a peak time to perform it where you can draw in the most power. Do it any other time it will give you a power up but not to God level, more in the Denarian/Winter Knight level. There may be other factors which affect its power, such as the presence of The Erl King in the mortal world.

Kemmler might have already done such a ‘weak’ Darkhallow, he was so much stronger than the average wizard, but unable to achieve the circumstances for a full Darkhallow during his lifetimes. The Erl King was in the 19th C Wildfae, by Dresden’s time he’s sworn fealty to Mab. This may have been to protect him from being summoned by Kemmler and Nameless - certainly when the latter was paperclipped into Winter.
Very true, the amount of available energy is entirely circumstantial, not to mention that in order to go from mortal to immortal, the spell/rite must be performed on Halloween. Otherwise the change in state from mortal to immortal cannot occur.

Then there is the quality of the spirits. Older spirits carry more metaphysical power than those more recently deceased - hence partially why they used Native American spirits (all the more grotesque I imagine to the local Native people). Spirits also are drawn to things of the material world (places, objects etc.). So you also need a certain amount of objects the spirits would be drawn to (hence why Corpsetaker posed as a historian on an ancient Native American exhibition, and why it was also performed at a museum). As you also point out, the Erlking is somewhat crucial as you need his power to weaken the barrier between the Nevernever and the real world further and for him to summon even older spirits (hunters, specifically). Finally, you need to create a certain amount of metaphysical turbulence between the real world and the Nevernever, which has been occurring for a few years before the Darkhallow was attempted in Chicago. So there is a big difference between a Darkhallow like the one that was attempted in Dead Beat and just trying it out anywhere, anytime.

In a way, Chicago is primed for another Darkhallow. All the recent death and destruction, all the turbulence. Just happens that one very angry, increasingly powerful Wizard watches over the place (who now has soloed a Titan). Not to mention all the other protectors the city has...like Marcone.

If I were Cowl, I would pick a much, much older city with far more violence in it's history than Chicago. Like London or Rome or Cairo, or maybe not even a capital. Pick a less protected city than Chicago too, somewhere the White Council holds less sway - so probably not Europe. Cairo or Luxor seem like good options. Maybe Grozny in Russia or Palmyra in Syria, or even Baghdad in Iraq.

Then you create another big distraction for the White Council and it's allies - another Ethniu-like situation, another massive Outsider assault on the Gates, another critical war going on. While everyone is distracted, you perform the Darkhallow. You also at this point would have gathered enough relics, enough historical objects for the spirits, created enough spiritual turbulence for the past few years, and summon the Erlking or another psychopomp-like being (surely there are a few). But that's just me.

I think the Erlking was far stronger in Dead Beat than he is later - Jim was still sorting out relative power levels. Hell, the Erlking uses telepathy to communicate the first time!

Curiously, Harry always assumed Mavra wanted the Word of Kemmler for herself to become a god, or whatever. But now we know she works for Drakul and is likely his most loyal servant. Perhaps it is Drakul who wishes to become a god (or something closer to what he was), again. Terrifying food for thought.

Also, CT, why would Nameless be involved in all this? I don't remember his connection to Dead Beat.

It’s Checkov’s Darkhallow

It might require a Starborn for peak effect, which is why Drakul wanted it BUT Harry would only use it if it didn’t harm innocents. Ripping the Lifeforce from say a Fomor Army in achieving it would help ESPECIALLY if he has the Blackstaff to shield from the harmful effects and the Spear to maximise success. We have literally seen Eb rip the life from a hundred Red Court flunkies in the same way the Darkhallow would.

Any innocents could hide behind the Placard THAT would shield them from the Darkhallow as would the Carpenters House.
I don't think it works that way. It uses spirits, not life energy, to power to ritual. The vacuum of all that magic being eaten is what steals life force to bring back balance. So I don't think you could use it to "eat" the Fomor army like that.

Also, there are a lot of innocents - more than could fit in Mac's Bar and Michael's house. Think a few million.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: LostInTime on April 03, 2023, 07:46:37 AM
Harry, with the blackstaff, performing the Darkhallow on Demonreach on Halloween.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Mira on April 03, 2023, 11:46:13 AM
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True, but I think given Harry took the Winter Knight option - which hardly seems comparable tbh - Jim has written that story line out for now. Which isn't too say there isn't a Harry who didn't end up performing a mini-darkhallow (given the proper one needed to be on Halloween).

 True, he took what he saw as the least bad of three very bad options, his only options.  However that was choice, not lack of skill or knowledge of how to do it.  As you know very well, Jim doesn't give his characters those options unless they may have to use it at some point.  Interesting don't you think, when Cowl got the "Word" from Kemmler's book, Harry had also read and gotten it?  Jim could have just as easily had Harry simply stopping Cowl, which he could have done without him ever understanding how to work it himself. Jim put that option in Harry's back pocket for a reason, it could be that in the end the only way to stop the final battle against the Outside is for Harry to use the final option, giving himself the godlike powers needed to end it.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on April 03, 2023, 07:50:53 PM
On another thread I have posited that the Erl King is the son of the Gorgon Euryale and Poseidon, (brother of Hades) the giant hunter Orion.

That would explain why it requires the presence of the Erl King in the mortal world to trigger a full Darkhallow.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: vincentric on April 04, 2023, 04:10:10 PM
I used to think there's no way Harry could use the Darkhallow but I finally came up with a scenario where it's not only possible but useful.

The Darkhallow sucks in all the life around it as a side effect of apotheosis. Imagine Harry using it on Halloween on Demonreach (using Alfred as his drummer) and having Alfred loose all the sleepers an instant before the finish. Harry gets god-level power and the sleepers are all killed irrevocably. (cuz Halloween). It stops any escapee problem and uber-Harry can then head over to the Gates and turn the tide there.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: g33k on April 04, 2023, 04:44:26 PM
I used to think there's no way Harry could use the Darkhallow but I finally came up with a scenario where it's not only possible but useful.

The Darkhallow sucks in all the life around it as a side effect of apotheosis. Imagine Harry using it on Halloween on Demonreach (using Alfred as his drummer) and having Alfred loose all the sleepers an instant before the finish. Harry gets god-level power and the sleepers are all killed irrevocably. (cuz Halloween). It stops any escapee problem and uber-Harry can then head over to the Gates and turn the tide there.

I don't think most of the creatures in the Well are subject to a Darkhallow ritual.

Probably some of them are, though: I suspect the Naagloshi of being susceptible (for example).
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on April 04, 2023, 05:40:40 PM
You are what you eat, Harry would need to use the Blackstaff.

Otherwise those Eldritch horrors go right through you. And they don’t taste like chicken.

The prisoners in stasis would be protected from the Darkhallow, however Harry can selectively release them or part of them at will, actually subject to his will. He could set them on the Outsiders and eat the winner.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: vincentric on April 05, 2023, 03:28:56 AM
I don't think most of the creatures in the Well are subject to a Darkhallow ritual.

Probably some of them are, though: I suspect the Naagloshi of being susceptible (for example).

Correct, the Darkhallow would use ghosts like the one Cowl tried. The Sleepers would be killed because they'd get sucked in in the aftermath and it's Halloween so the immortals can be killed then.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: vincentric on April 05, 2023, 03:32:04 AM
You are what you eat, Harry would need to use the Blackstaff.

Otherwise those Eldritch horrors go right through you. And they don’t taste like chicken.

The prisoners in stasis would be protected from the Darkhallow, however Harry can selectively release them or part of them at will, actually subject to his will. He could set them on the Outsiders and eat the winner.

Again, the Darkhallow summons ghosts and that's what the user consumes. The Sleepers die in the aftermath where they are sucked into the vacuum caused by it.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: g33k on April 05, 2023, 03:45:10 AM
Correct, the Darkhallow would use ghosts like the one Cowl tried. The Sleepers would be killed because they'd get sucked in in the aftermath and it's Halloween so the immortals can be killed then.
I don't think most of them would be subject to "psychic vacuum" of the ghosts being eaten.
Mortals are relatively-weak, with little in the way of defenses; not so the entities in the Well.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on April 05, 2023, 11:18:06 AM
The Well is also sheltered from magic, Thomas couldn’t be traced there and was described as safe.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Ed0517 on April 06, 2023, 06:48:19 AM
The Well is also sheltered from magic, Thomas couldn’t be traced there and was described as safe.

That may be debatable - whose magic?  Beyond human magic, apparently beyond even Ethnieu - but maybe a Mother could crack it, and I assume Uriel could. Kinda like bulletproof vests - depends on the bullet. That darkhallow is big power.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on April 06, 2023, 09:44:06 AM
Anything powerful enough to destroy Demonreach would destroy the Earth as well.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: g33k on April 06, 2023, 01:07:24 PM
Anything powerful enough to destroy Demonreach would destroy the Earth as well.

No.

Demonrech's own failsafe -- turning all its energies into a big BOOM! -- would just be on a regional catastrophe (I expect the "Chicagoland" area would be virtually destroyed, and most of the states that border Lake Michigan would be pretty badly damaged; but the exact details were never specified).

That gives us the order of magnitude needed to power a "Demonreach-cracker" spell.
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Yuillegan on April 07, 2023, 03:53:35 AM
Again, the Darkhallow summons ghosts and that's what the user consumes. The Sleepers die in the aftermath where they are sucked into the vacuum caused by it.

You know, I am not so sure that's the case. If you read what the Darkhallow actually does back in Dead Beat, it's a spell that consumes spirits. I am not sure it distinguishes the spirits between those that are shades of the mortal departed or anything else. Bob was potentially going to be consumed if Cowl had succeeded, Dresden notes. Bob is no ghost or spectre, he is an air-spirit, a demon by certain definitions.

That said, I suspect it is impossible to consume an immortal without them first being made mortal. Which is why the Stone Table exists, and why Halloween is so important even to immortals - it allows them to gain power when they otherwise cannot. It allows change. Yes, it can also result in their deaths or the deaths of their enemies, but I suspect it's far more important to try and steal power and add it to one's own. That's far safer, but also longer term thinking than a slugfest or assassination (both of which are more likely to fail and may even result in death to the attacker).

Hence, if one did attempt a Darkhallow on Demonreach (remembering the only time it can be attempted IS on Halloween given that a mortal cannot become immortal except during that type of convergence - which doesn't mean there are not other places e.g. specific locations in the Nevernever that one could do a Darkhallow), one might be able to consume the immortal beings if released.

BUT - the variables are too high I think to be feasible. You have to kill each immortal, as I can't imagine they would go willingly, and they would each put up a fight. They are likely well rested and angry. Imagine trying to face down 100 Ethniu-level threats. And Demonreach contains thousands of monsters, maybe more. While not all would be immortal necessarily (although likely most are, given that the Naagloshii are the least powerful threats and they are immortal), you still have a lot of really big threats to contend with.

Then there is the issue of what happens if you did somehow manage to weaken enough of them to consume them in the vortex. I doubt there would be anything left of the performer of the Darkhallow. Given Dresden is probably the only being who could both release the prisoners and perform the Darkhallow given his knowledge and position as Warden, I doubt there would be a Dresden at the end. As CT says, you are what you eat. Jim has spoken a bit about this before. In consuming so many powerful identities (let alone dark, insane monsters), it wouldn't leave much left of the original being that ate them. The act of consuming them is an act of change, and the only thing that can change is the performer of the Darkhallow. Sadly, what would be left is a truly insane, incredibly powerful monster. But I doubt it would ever get to that stage.

I don't think most of them would be subject to "psychic vacuum" of the ghosts being eaten.
Mortals are relatively-weak, with little in the way of defenses; not so the entities in the Well.
This is right, I think. In their containment crystals, I think they would be protected against most things. Not to mention most if not all of the beings in the well are immortals and so basically impossible to kill. Beyond that, the magic of the Darkhallow consumes all the magic in the area (I suspect because the Darkhallow uses necromancy, which uses the power of death rather than life). This consuming of magic (i.e. life energy) is what creates a vacuum, and reality balances that by ripping all the life out in the local area to bring local reality back into equilibrium. This energy doesn't go to the Darkhallow performer, as they already have consumed the areas magic, it's life energy. The vacuum is an after-effect, a very dangerous and scary one. But not evil in and of itself, no more than a hurricane is evil. Just nature balancing itself out. I also don't think spirits (including immortals here) are the right sort of energy, given that strictly speaking, they aren't exactly alive. They are energy beings, sure. But mortal life energy has repeatedly shown to have a qualitative difference to it. I don't think the energy of the immortals would balance things out even if it could be ripped from them, which it can't anyway.

That may be debatable - whose magic?  Beyond human magic, apparently beyond even Ethnieu - but maybe a Mother could crack it, and I assume Uriel could. Kinda like bulletproof vests - depends on the bullet. That darkhallow is big power.
I don't think it was beyond Ethniu. She didn't know of it's significance. If she had, she might not have attacked so close to Chicago. Remember, He Who Walks Before was potentially able to crack it given enough time. Not to mention, it's not merely a matter of metaphysical/magical might. Mortal power is enough, given that Before was using mortals in it's rituals, and Ethniu had plenty of mortal servants too.

A being of the Mothers' level (including Uriel) could do it, but I doubt any would. Not to mention, even if they have the horsepower necessary, none of those beings seem to be able to influence events on the mortal plane except to the tiniest degree (although Lucifer seems to be able to get around this a bit more than the rest).

Anything powerful enough to destroy Demonreach would destroy the Earth as well.
Depends on your definition of destroy. If the Well's failsafe is activated it destroys most of North America. Such an event would be worse than any meteor to ever hit the planet (including the potential one theorized to have ended the Dinosaurs). Such an event would physically change Earth's climate to likely a completely inhospitable degree (given it would likely cover the planet in a dirt cloud that might not disperse for years). This assumes that the Banefire isn't so hot that it ignites the atmosphere, burning it away completely and leaving the Earth completely unprotected to the hostile nature of space. That would result in half the planet instantly burning and the other half freezing (depending on whether the light of the Sun was touching it), and this would be after the initial global firestorm. Now maybe if you were in a bunker deep enough you might survive all that, assuming you had your own oxygen supply etc. But not for long. The oceans would be evaporated, the entire surface made inimical to life. No air, water, safe and arable land, no food. Depending on the power of the Banefire's explosion, it might cause tectonic disturbances. Which means any bunker that wasn't immediately blown away, might still eventually become totally compromised due to the shifting continents.

That's a destroyed Earth by most definitions. And sure, there are lesser scenarios that only result in the USA getting firestormed on the surface. But that likely would still cause a massive geopolitical change, probably result in some very destructive wars, and probably still some negative climate effects on a global level etc. And this assumes no other supernatural involvement. Plenty of monsters might come out at this point to exploit the situation.

But if you mean a full-on Death Star-like planet-fully-destroyed-and-turned-to-rubble moment (overkill by most definitions), I think that's redundant.

Besides, why destroy Demonreach? Just as easy to leave it there and keep away any competition. Not to mention, simply cracking it open would be enough to end the world (in some cases even for just one of those beings getting out) let alone all of them. As I said earlier, cracking it open isn't simply a matter of brute strength. Skill, knowledge, will and tools are just as capable (perhaps more so in some cases). It might be easier and have a higher chance of success to simpy use leverage. Even the Outsiders didn't just use brute strength, and they have potentially an unlimited amount (by some definitions). They used a variety of approaches.

 
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Ed0517 on April 07, 2023, 06:17:41 AM
Anything powerful enough to destroy Demonreach would destroy the Earth as well.

I don't know about that. Krakatoa might be enough to burn out the prison. Maybe a year without a summer. Maybe two. But recoverable. We survived that. Maybe the theoretical Yellowstone eruption?
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: Ed0517 on April 07, 2023, 06:31:55 AM
That may be debatable - whose magic?  Beyond human magic, apparently beyond even Ethnieu - but maybe a Mother could crack it, and I assume Uriel could. Kinda like bulletproof vests - depends on the bullet. That darkhallow is big power.

I don't think it was beyond Ethniu. She didn't know of it's significance. If she had, she might not have attacked so close to Chicago. Remember, He Who Walks Before was potentially able to crack it given enough time. Not to mention, it's not merely a matter of metaphysical/magical might. Mortal power is enough, given that Before was using mortals in it's rituals, and Ethniu had plenty of mortal servants too.

A being of the Mothers' level (including Uriel) could do it, but I doubt any would. Not to mention, even if they have the horsepower necessary, none of those beings seem to be able to influence events on the mortal plane except to the tiniest degree (although Lucifer seems to be able to get around this a bit more than the rest).

I don't know. it's holding her, isn't it? I think the Walkers are above Ethnieu, though
Title: Re: The Darkhallow
Post by: The_Sibelis on April 24, 2023, 01:14:48 AM
Well, it's a mutable mortal consuming literal god tier power,(EK) they'd effectively control all that power but still hold choice and be changeable, which would be bad if they can't resist losing themselves in whatever they consume.