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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ashern on July 21, 2010, 02:52:14 PM
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Hey guys, I've got a game I'm putting together and one of my players who has thaumaturgy was wondering about doing a ritual to turn themselves into an animal for a time. Said person hasn't read past the first several books of the series, but with the copious examples of a wizard doing it in Turn Coat, it's obviously possible. That being said, I can't actually seem to find it specifically discussed anywhere. I understand that it would be biomancy (probably), in a ritual to change into an animal and probably give yourself certain powers temporarily... but I'm stumped as to how to determine difficulty and what you could do with it.
Thanks!
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Hey guys, I've got a game I'm putting together and one of my players who has thaumaturgy was wondering about doing a ritual to turn themselves into an animal for a time. Said person hasn't read past the first several books of the series, but with the copious examples of a wizard doing it in Turn Coat, it's obviously possible. That being said, I can't actually seem to find it specifically discussed anywhere. I understand that it would be biomancy (probably), in a ritual to change into an animal and probably give yourself certain powers temporarily... but I'm stumped as to how to determine difficulty and what you could do with it.
Thanks!
pretty sure shapeshifting is covered under "biomancy" ;)
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Cool, page number? Because I'm not seeing it...
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Cool, page number? Because I'm not seeing it...
at the office sorry. look in the index in the back, find biomancy and look to the right. Should have a page number for you. Also try looking up shapeshifting.
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Biomancy only mentions shapeshifting in passing, though it certainly is part of biomancy (YS284).
To cast a shapeshifting spell, you have to create enough power to 'take out' the target, even if it's yourself. It would count as an extreme consequence for such an extreme spell. Assume the time increment for the spell is 15 minutes (perhaps, it could be justified as more, but I think a longish scene is the most appropriate length of time) and then add on further shifts for duration.
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Sadly, biomancy isn't in the index (though, as CMEast posted, it's at YS284), and I can't find any sort of discussion on shapeshifting yourself.
I know I read somewhere, (albeit possibly on this forum), the notion that self-shape-shifting could be done using thaumaturgy to just stack up a whole pile of navel-gazing maneuvers that you could then tag as needed - so a wolf form might give you aspects of "runs like the wind" x2, "hunter's endurance", "claws and fangs" x3, for a total complexity of around 18 (plus some for duration, probably). You'd then have two free tags on "runs like the wind" - which you could use for moving or dodging; one for "hunter's endurance"; and three for "claws and fangs". Once those free tags ran out, it's fate point time. And, of course, the GM could throw compels at these temporary aspects - maybe someone called animal control when they saw a wolf running past outside...
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YS282 covers shapeshifting, though it's fairly vague it can be used as a model for shapeshifting magic.
Of course, if the PC plans to do it a lot, it may just be simpler to take beast change, using magic to justify it.
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Yeah, it's on p. 282, but the marginalia on p. 283 go into more detail. The basics are:
1. Take yourself Out with the magic. Since you won't be using Consequences to avoid this, it's not hard.
2. Spend Fate Points or Tags you didn't use on the spell to pay for points of powers on a 1 for 1 basis.
There is no three.
As an example, say you want to turn into a Hawk. You want Beast Change, Diminutive Size, Claws, Wings, and Inhuman Speed. That's 6 points of powers.
Now, say you have Good Lore and 4 Stress Boxes. You'll willingly fail your Defense roll, so you only need about Complexity 5 to do this, so you do some prep-work, and accumulate a single Tag, which you'll use to boost Complexity. But you don't want to spend 6 FP on it, so you then go on to accumulate 5 more Tags to help pay for the form's powers. You do the spell, use the 5 Tags and 1 FP to pay for the powers, and you're now a Hawk for a while (one scene by default, hough you can add duration onto that by increasing Complexity).
While not an official rule, iago also said a while back that it would be reasonable to pay for powers with the temporary loss of other powers, so if you can't do Evocation as a hawk, you might need three less Tags/FP. That's at GM discretion, though.
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Here's the way I, as a GM handle it- specifically with Listens-to-Wind's relative ease of shifting in mind (which clearly wasn't accounted for in the rules-as-written.)
The complexity of the spell is equal to (Total Refresh Cost of Powers Gained x2) +2. It's simple, and while it may make shapeshifting too easy for some GMs' tastes, I found the alternatives basically unacceptable.
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Here's the way I, as a GM handle it- specifically with Listens-to-Wind's relative ease of shifting in mind (which clearly wasn't accounted for in the rules-as-written.)
Yes it was. He has True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities. Magic that exactly duplicates other powers is purchased as those other powers. Iago and others have explicitly said as much.
Listens-to-Wind's shapeshifting is also pretty much instant, it can't be Thaumaturgy.
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Yes it was. He has True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities. Magic that exactly duplicates other powers is purchased as those other powers. Iago and others have explicitly said as much.
Yeah, he said it directly to me. I still have GM perogative to overrule it. :P
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Fantastic, I'd somehow missed those rules! Thanks DMW. I'm glad I wasn't too incorrect, though I had forgotten that you could just take yourself out without using the consequences which is great! It makes complete sense and works perfectly!
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Yeah, he said it directly to me. I still have GM perogative to overrule it. :P
True! :)
I was mostly just saying that the rules as written could handle it, not that their version of how to do so was ideal for everyone's game.
Fantastic, I'd somehow missed those rules! Thanks DMW. I'm glad I wasn't too incorrect, though I had forgotten that you could just take yourself out without using the consequences which is great! It makes complete sense and works perfectly!
No problem, I'm always happy to help. :)
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If I'm understanding it correctly, you should be able to have a wizard a lot like Listens to Wind.
I've got a wizard who has a Lore of Great +4 and three stress boxes. The complexity of changing shape is going to be 4 (how much it takes to take him out). He has a conviction and discipline of superb +5. So generally, he can change shape in a single round.
If you allow a wizard to swap out his powers for new ones, which I think is very reasonable, he can turn into most creatures very quickly. Would you even need to keep thaumaturgy, since Beast change would allow you to turn back? So my wizard could drop all his powers and take the shape of a grizzly (I'm going off of DMW's creature write ups).
One question, though. Are you still limited by your refresh rate when your using tags or fate points to buy powers?
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By default, even one exchange Thaumaturgy is gonna take more than one round in combat (usually at least a couple of minutes), or the listed ability to use it at Evocation speeds is meaningless. You also need special GM permission to switch around powers, but yeah it's all doable in theory.
And no, those use the Temporary Power Rules on p. 92, and Refresh limits aren't really applicable.
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I use the HR below (Basically an Character replacement rule):
When you (Self-)Transform into another thing you loose all your Powers and Stunts.
Unless you buy them back into the Ritual.
The basic difficulty for transforming is based on the True Shapeshift Power (-4 Refresh = 8 Shifts)
(Reason, while one Ritual can only change you into one form, you can have multiple Rituals. Thats True Shapeshift.)
Since you may want to end the spell before sunrise, we add another shift.
So the basic Self-Transforming spell is an Complexity Ritual 9.
So lets say our Wizards want to transform into an Wolf. With the Lvl. 9 Ritual he can take the form off an Wolf, but he is unfamiliar with the body.
He incorporates another Power into the Ritual: Beast Change for the Skill Shuffle (Demonic Co-Pilot would work too?).
Thats another Refresh (Total of 5) or 2 Shifts of Power. = Complexity of 11
After an Encounter with an Hellhound our Wizards want to change into one.
A Hellhound is an -7 Refresh creature with the -4 from True Shapechange that would be -11. To much for our Submerged Wizard (10 Refresh Total, max. -9 Refresh)
He researches further and cuts the Pack Instinct out and the Stunt Unflappable (Presence), that would bring the Refresh to -9, but then he realises he needs still the Beast Change Power...
He cuts the other Stunt since he overlaps a little with Echoes of the Beast.
Complexity of the Ritual (9*2)+1 = 19
Later in the Campaign after the Wizard got 7 new Refreshes he bought True ShapeChange (-4) and the Modular Abilities (-3).
So he can Shapechange into an Wolf on the fly (with all his Powers intact), but anything more complicated (like an bird) he needs still to cast an Ritual.
He could change into an Bird with allmost all his Powers intact with an Ritual.
Example:
-3 Evocation
-3 Thaumaturgy
-1 Wizards Sight
-2 Refinement
-1 Diminuitive Size
-1 Wings
-1 Beast Change
-4 True Shapechange
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-16
He could'nt use his True Shapechange, because this is the Ritual Version. He would need to end the spell first.
The Complexity of the Ritual would be (16*2)+1 = 33
With two more Refresh spent on Modular Abilities he wouldn't need the Ritual (And it would be much faster).
IMHO with this you could play an Junior Wizards who grows into an Powerfull Shapechanger.
It's flexible, but you are at least 4 Refresh points behind the Specialist.
I like it so far... Opinions?
You could allow the Wizard to go over his refresh, with the temporary Power rule on page 92 YS.
Not shure about that...
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Listens-to-Wind's shapeshifting is also pretty much instant, it can't be Thaumaturgy.
some sort of native american deity sponsored magic linked with shapeshifting could be an answer. i do not want to intrude on the discussion, just provide another angle.
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Wow guys, thanks for all of the awesome responses! Any one of several of the options here could work great, and I'll work with the player for what seem reasonable. I'm not too worried, since we're at a 7 refresh game, and we already have a werebear, so he'd probably only be doing stuff with a couple of points of powers.
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Considering that Injun Joe did so many shifts into different animals it seems like 1 of a couple of options was currently in play. Either he was so skilled with evocation or thaumaturgy he was able to either speed up the thaumaturgy or expand the powers of evocation. 2nd he could have purchased any of the different powers that allow you to shapeshift. I am certain there are other options but those are the quick thoughts off the top of my head.
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The developers have specifically mentioned he pretty much has True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities.
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Interesting article on how to create spells and rotes at http://www.rickneal.ca/?p=642 (http://www.rickneal.ca/?p=642), specifically for this thread, there is a thaumaturgical shapechanging spell and how he creates. He does it a little differently to how it's been done here, check the comments for more details on it.
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How do you handle thaumaturgical shapeshifting in your game?
It really comes down to two questions, I suppose. How you allow the wizard to take himself out and do you allow the wizard to swap powers? Does the wizard have to take consequences to take himself out or just exceed his stress track? Big difference in complexity there. Also having a huge impact is whether or not a wizard can swap powers.
Personally, I'm leaning towards stress track only and able to swap out at least some or maybe even all of his powers.
I'm a co-GM and I have my ideas, but I'm also the only wizard so I might be biased :) so I wanted to see how others are handling it.
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I allow them to just use the Stress track, but not usually to swap out powers. This is, BTW, the official ruling.
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I allow them to just use the Stress track, but not usually to swap out powers. This is, BTW, the official ruling.
Sounds good! I may end up going this route as well.
Although, I was just reading the marginella on p283 again and it does say "come back in a new form with different powers." Which could be taken to mean you don't automatically keep your old powers.
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What about permanent shape-shifting? I know Bob mentioned in Fool Moon that one of the forms of werewolves involved a magic user turning someone into a wolf as a curse...but that's an unwilling victim, a full transformation, and a lifetime on the duration. That would be a hell of a spell...
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What about permanent shape-shifting? I know Bob mentioned in Fool Moon that one of the forms of werewolves involved a magic user turning someone into a wolf as a curse...but that's an unwilling victim, a full transformation, and a lifetime on the duration. That would be a hell of a spell...
That's actually simpler, since it's a straight transformation of another. Not only is it simple to model (it's basically a death spell, and instead of death you have the transformation), but it's also blatantly a violation of the Laws. One lawbreaker stunt coming right up! ;)
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I allow them to just use the Stress track, but not usually to swap out powers. This is, BTW, the official ruling.
I wouldn't require them to actually take consequences, but I'd probably require the power of the spell be equal to stress tracks + consequences. Shapeshifting magic is supposed to be hard in the Dresdenverse, and a 3-5 shift thaumaturgical effect (to just overcome a stress track) doesn't really fit the bill IMHO. Even adding a few shifts to bolt on powers puts shapeshifting into the "pretty easy" category.
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Well, if you don't allow Power Swapping, most forms will take more like 17 to 19 Complexity effectively, since it'll be 3-5 actual Complexity plus, say, 7 Tags or Fate Points.
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I wouldn't require them to actually take consequences, but I'd probably require the power of the spell be equal to stress tracks + consequences. Shapeshifting magic is supposed to be hard in the Dresdenverse, and a 3-5 shift thaumaturgical effect (to just overcome a stress track) doesn't really fit the bill IMHO. Even adding a few shifts to bolt on powers puts shapeshifting into the "pretty easy" category.
Source?
Counter-Example: Billy and Friends.
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Billy and friends pay for their shapeshifting through refresh. Find a better counterexample.
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You are talking about game rules, I am talking about In-Game explanations.
Kordeth was talking about the 'In-Game' occurence of Shapeshifting. So I think my counter-example is valid.