ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: WereElephant on March 29, 2018, 03:49:15 PM

Title: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: WereElephant on March 29, 2018, 03:49:15 PM
As of Skin Game, we know that Butters has accepted wielding Fidelacchius full-time. Murphy has picked it up off and on in the past, with varying results. Based on previous theory, to bear the sword on a regular basis, there is a requirement to have royal ancestry.

Did the books say from which royal Butters is descended? I can't remember. If not, what are the popular theories? He's Jewish, so it could go back to the kings of Israel and Judah, possibly even David.

What about Murphy? She never became a full Knight of the Cross, but she wielded it several times, and at one point, the sword was described as giving her a "job offer". Any theories on from whom she might be descended? Did they say in the books?

Other possible candidates for holding swords (based solely on lineage, not on temperament or character):

Thomas Raith. Descended from Lord Raith, ruler of the White Court for centuries. Royalty of a sort. Also, him taking up the Sword of Love would be interesting.

Marcone. His lineage remains completely unknown, but his position as an underworld lord and freeholding lord might count, making him the first of his line.

Daniel Carpenter. Same lineage as his father, duh. Seems a little on the nose, and I would rather see a sword go elsewhere, but it's a possibility.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Maz on March 29, 2018, 03:58:47 PM
By the nature of genealogy, everyone on the planet, if you go back far enough, is descended from royalty.  Its just a product of the limited population of the planet and  the number of ancestors you have had :)
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Kindler on March 29, 2018, 04:29:11 PM
Daniel Carpenter. Same lineage as his father, duh. Seems a little on the nose, and I would rather see a sword go elsewhere, but it's a possibility.

*cough* AmandaCarpenter *coughcough*.

Daniel, in my opinion, has disqualified himself from being a wielder. He completely lacks the one quality we've seen from Shiro, Sanya, and Michael (and Butters, for that matter): being slow to anger. Daniel's got the fury part, but he's missing the "righteous" side.

Murphy's Irish. Only Irish dynasty I know anything about is the last one, the Ua Briain dynasty, which was overthrown around 1120 AD by (you guessed it) the Anglo (at this point)-Normans. Not sure if her ancestry includes England or not, but that would open up an awful lot of possibilities.

I'm assuming that Butters is ethnically Jewish (as in a lineage traceable to Israel, circa 1100 BC) and not Ashkenazi or a converted family line. Could be from the Davidic line, which hung around for about a thousand years, with a lot of offshoots.

By the way, I also assume the Lord Raith is descended from one of the Etruscan Kings of Rome (before they became a republic and annexed most of the other city-states in what they called Etruria). It'd certainly make sense if they're speaking flippin' Etruscan in their meetings.

I agree; Marcone is the Nobleman of Chicago.

For the rest... we simply don't know enough about their lineage. I do know that the House of Borden (Billy) was created as a Greater Barony by William the Conqueror for services rendered (there's that pesky Norman again). With the ties to Hastings, and also being half of the only two genuinely stable couples in the books, that might make him a viable candidate.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Rasins on March 29, 2018, 04:47:32 PM
There were a LOT of Kings in Ireland, and elsewhere, so It's entirely possible that Murphy is descended from one or many of them.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Quantus on March 29, 2018, 05:24:41 PM
There were a LOT of Kings in Ireland, and elsewhere, so It's entirely possible that Murphy is descended from one or many of them.
Agreed.  And the further you go back the smaller a group had to be to call their leader a King (or equivalent). A Chieftain would have the same sort of Responsibility for his People.   
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Kindler on March 29, 2018, 07:29:09 PM
Hey, Sigrun is a daughter of the King of the Geats, apparently. Though it's been debated a lot in recent years, my old professor was adamant in declaring Beowulf the first Christian epic (the debate centers on whether it's specifically Christian or just pagan with messianic qualities); a daughter of Beowulf with freakin' Excalibur? I'd pay to see it. Well, I'll pay to read it, anyway.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Quantus on March 29, 2018, 08:56:21 PM
Hey, Sigrun is a daughter of the King of the Geats, apparently. Though it's been debated a lot in recent years, my old professor was adamant in declaring Beowulf the first Christian epic (the debate centers on whether it's specifically Christian or just pagan with messianic qualities); a daughter of Beowulf with freakin' Excalibur? I'd pay to see it. Well, I'll pay to read it, anyway.
I doubt she'd qualify for the Sword given her pre-existing affiliations with a god and an afterlife and all that. I Could be wrong, she might still be Mortal enough.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Graves on March 31, 2018, 05:26:25 PM
she's not mortal, she's over 1,000 years old. As has been said ireland had many kings. it was why they tended to get conquored by the english-they were busy fighting among themselves to fend off a more organiazed outsider, but that's still a lot. butters the logical line would be David BUT depending on how you read the bible they all go back to Abraham. If that isn't enough he might be a levite (variation on levine) which is a line to Moses, the law giver. there are the pre Davidic kins like Saul. and joshua (a king in action if not name.)

You really don't know. a friend of my mother's is big into this and traced may maternal line. We thought it was kind of funny. Everyone wants to go back to a king or a significant slave (Cleopatra's house maid) but we always said you end up on a turnip farm in Norfolk. well no. he hit a noble line and those church records existed so you can run with it. He didn't know the history but I could fill in the blanks-a lesser son of the Duke of Brittany who settled in England during the civil war between Matilda and Stephen (the time of the Cadfael books) by where a supported of Matilda who's son was Henry II. You think the family line is ho-hum but then 42 generations back your ancestor is the uncrowned king of France and known as the Hammer of Tours.  Well that puts a lot of 'royal' blood in the general population
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: YoungestGruff on March 31, 2018, 07:31:40 PM
*cough* AmandaCarpenter *coughcough*.

Second.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: jonas on March 31, 2018, 07:53:41 PM
Second.
Somehow I wonder more about little Harry... if not for a sword for the unique trait of being literally named after Harry Dresden. In a world were naming is of extreme import to name someone for someone seems to have dire consequences... least when that someone is fricken Harry Dresden. 
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Quantus on April 02, 2018, 11:36:23 AM
Somehow I wonder more about little Harry... if not for a sword for the unique trait of being literally named after Harry Dresden. In a world were naming is of extreme import to name someone for someone seems to have dire consequences... least when that someone is fricken Harry Dresden. 
I always tended to think that little harry wouldnt get much (and they apparently call him 'Hank' within the household), but trying to use "Bill" on Harry might actually carry a great deal of weight, given how much weight Harry gives Family. 
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Rasins on April 02, 2018, 07:12:25 PM
I always tended to think that little harry wouldnt get much (and they apparently call him 'Hank' within the household), but trying to use "Bill" on Harry might actually carry a great deal of weight, given how much weight Harry gives Family.

I'm waiting for them to call him Bill, and Wild Bill, the warden from Tx shows up.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: WereElephant on April 04, 2018, 05:03:39 PM
Second.

Third. I like it.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Rasins on April 05, 2018, 01:40:10 PM
*cough* AmandaCarpenter *coughcough*.
Second.
Third. I like it.
I could totally live with this.

Back to Daniel, I don't think he's disqualified himself. I think he's young and just needs some seasoning.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Kindler on April 05, 2018, 02:05:25 PM
I could totally live with this.

Back to Daniel, I don't think he's disqualified himself. I think he's young and just needs some seasoning.

He's a good man, and he's willing to fight, but for me, the benchmark of a Knight is what we've seen from Shiro and Michael. Daniel lacks... serenity? I suppose that's the word. Shiro, Michael, and to an extent, Sanya, have all shown an aversion to fighting. It's not their first solution. Daniel seems like he would be reaching for his Sword at every opportunity. I just don't think he has it in him to be a good Knight.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Quantus on April 05, 2018, 02:22:32 PM
He's a good man, and he's willing to fight, but for me, the benchmark of a Knight is what we've seen from Shiro and Michael. Daniel lacks... serenity? I suppose that's the word. Shiro, Michael, and to an extent, Sanya, have all shown an aversion to fighting. It's not their first solution. Daniel seems like he would be reaching for his Sword at every opportunity. I just don't think he has it in him to be a good Knight.
Im not willing to go that far, if only because we've never actually seen the Before&After for a Knight other than Butters (Who also needed to Grow as a person first but was coming from a very different direction). 

But we DO know that young Sanya was an angry, bitter, and most probably violent person when he was Daniel's age; it was the whole reason he fell in with Rosanna.  I would say that Sanya went MUCH further down the dark side of that particular path than Daniel has, and he was able to Mature enough to be a proper Knight. Probably worth noting that even in DM Sanya was noticeably more hot-headed than the other two.  Daniel is not ready to be a Knight right now by any stretch, but Id say we saw signs of his maturing even just over the course of GS (which is the only window we've had to him, and EVERYBODY was off their game in that book, but mired in a street-level supernatural War. 
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Kindler on April 05, 2018, 04:53:46 PM
Im not willing to go that far, if only because we've never actually seen the Before&After for a Knight other than Butters (Who also needed to Grow as a person first but was coming from a very different direction). 

But we DO know that young Sanya was an angry, bitter, and most probably violent person when he was Daniel's age; it was the whole reason he fell in with Rosanna.  I would say that Sanya went MUCH further down the dark side of that particular path than Daniel has, and he was able to Mature enough to be a proper Knight. Probably worth noting that even in DM Sanya was noticeably more hot-headed than the other two.  Daniel is not ready to be a Knight right now by any stretch, but Id say we saw signs of his maturing even just over the course of GS (which is the only window we've had to him, and EVERYBODY was off their game in that book, but mired in a street-level supernatural War.

Fair point.

I still don't want it to be Daniel. Way too linear.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Quantus on April 05, 2018, 05:02:23 PM
Fair point.

I still don't want it to be Daniel. Way too linear.
Which, frankly, is why I dont really want it to fall to any of the Carpenters, Id rather they not stagnate in dyansties.  But then,
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Rasins on April 05, 2018, 06:21:20 PM
Which, frankly, is why I dont really want it to fall to any of the Carpenters, Id rather they not stagnate in dyansties.  But then,
(click to show/hide)

That we know of.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Quantus on April 05, 2018, 07:11:00 PM
That we know of.
Keep on hopin'
   :P
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Kindler on April 05, 2018, 07:39:02 PM
I'd argue the opposite, but it's really just preference; I think that the teasing of other candidates (Murphy and Susan briefly, then Butters permanently) points to the final Sword falling to a Carpenter. The twist would be that it was the one least expected, the Dutiful Daughter Amanda rather than the more prominent ones, like the youngest children and Daniel. I could buy Hope, if only because her nickname is Hobbit, too.

I'm one of the few who wouldn't be particularly happy if Thomas or Marcone wound up as a Knight.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Quantus on April 05, 2018, 08:09:59 PM
I'd argue the opposite, but it's really just preference; I think that the teasing of other candidates (Murphy and Susan briefly, then Butters permanently) points to the final Sword falling to a Carpenter. The twist would be that it was the one least expected, the Dutiful Daughter Amanda rather than the more prominent ones, like the youngest children and Daniel. I could buy Hope, if only because her nickname is Hobbit, too.

I'm one of the few who wouldn't be particularly happy if Thomas or Marcone wound up as a Knight.
Marcone's out in my book, he really only fit Fidelachius.  Id still be pleased with Thomas for Amorachius.  I also tend to think (or maybe just want to believe) that the whole Carpenter family got passed over for a sword when Charity fumbled that catch.

Im curious who we'll eventually see take up Esperiachius at the end (because you know all the original Knights are going to bite it); I suspect Harry will get a one-scene use of it as their last Hope.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Kindler on April 05, 2018, 08:15:34 PM
Marcone's out in my book, he really only fit Fidelachius.  Id still be pleased with Thomas for Amorachius.  I also tend to think (or maybe just want to believe) that the whole Carpenter family got passed over for a sword when Charity fumbled that catch.

Im curious who we'll eventually see take up Esperiachius at the end (because you know all the original Knights are going to bite it); I suspect Harry will get a one-scene use of it as their last Hope.

Well, we have three names: Faith (who will be returning), Hope (Carpenter), and Amanda (which means "Worthy of love"). It's a bit on the nose, but I can't argue against that kind of thing.
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Quantus on April 06, 2018, 12:20:02 PM
Another reason why I dont want it to be any of them is that they are all still mostly faceless extra's.  I want them to go to characters we've spent time with, not somebody from the fringes. 
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: jonas on April 06, 2018, 07:48:47 PM
Fair point.

I still don't want it to be Daniel. Way too linear.
Have you considered Daniels potential fall into
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swords and Ancestry
Post by: Avernite on April 06, 2018, 09:12:59 PM
Another reason why I dont want it to be any of them is that they are all still mostly faceless extra's.  I want them to go to characters we've spent time with, not somebody from the fringes.
Amoracchius could fall to a major character - but the real majors have all been explicitly in the picture before, what with A being out of the running since Michael got crippled, and they haven't picked it up yet. So it'd require a significant shift anyway, significant enough that it could also shift a fringe into semi-major supporting character (which is what Sanya is, IMO - he's not a core character like Michael, Murphy, Thomas, Mab, and perhaps since GS, Butters).