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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tedronai on April 26, 2011, 01:31:09 PM
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So I've got a character bouncing around in my head that's been demanding a bit of leeway from the usual rules in order to be properly represented, so I figured I'd pass some of those altered rules by the folks here to get your opinions on how they might (or might not) adversely affect game balance.
the character:
a young, somewhat underachieving, (apprentice) wizard prodigy who takes Dresden's 'without my foci, it would just be too dangerous' schtick to an extreme (actually having an aspect being called, for the moment, 'without my foci, I'd kill us ALL')
I've modeled this, mechanically, by giving him full Thaumaturgy, and several Refinements, but neither Evocation nor even Channeling, then devoting substantial specialization and focus slots to Crafting, while flavouring those items as incredibly dedicated 'foci' for his 'evocation' spells, including his 'potion' slots, which I've flavoured as foci that 'burn out' after just one or two uses
To aid the consistency of these items being foci for evocation, and not actually storing spell energy themselves, though, I've performed a bit of a reverse of one of the usual enchanted item options. Instead of reducing the power to increase the frequency, I've dropped the frequency to 0 - instead relying on that oft-forgotten option (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25052.0.html) to pay mental stress to gain extra uses of items - increasing the power by a commensurate amount.
So...that's the biggest workaround that this character would be using.
Beyond that, I'd been intending to invoke-for-effect 'without my foci...', probably while simultaneously handing the gm a pre-approved compel, to lay down the occasional mostly-indiscriminate destruction in the style of zone-wide evocation attacks.
I'm not quite set on the details of how to implement this one, though, beyond the base concept, but even Channeling seemed to expensive for what I had in mind (basically a single spell effect at significant cost of collateral damage, without justification even for having an enchanted item 'focus')
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Enchanted items as "foci";
Take it as a minor power. A -1 refresh minor power that allows you to lower frequency to 0 and add it to Power should work. Keep in mind that -1 refresh for +2 to item power is in line for a +2 crafting focus or a specialization; it could add a bonus to power at the cost of frequency but it does not have to be a focus itself (thus non-removable), could add more than +2 in some occasions and might, at the GM's option, allow you to boost said item's power beyond the usual 2x Lore.
So, Thaumaturgy, the special power and 4 refinements could give him 12 enchanted item/potion slots at Lore+3 power, 3 frequency (up to Lore+6 power with his special option)
Fallout when lacking "foci";
Any practitioner with at least one of ritual or channeling can draw power via conviction. Without a spell construct for a Thaumaturgy spell or channeling or ritual, this power goes uncontrolled. It can be backlash, fallout or hexing (an option if you intentionally call uncontrolled power). So when he gets compelled, the compel would be to call power for backlash, fallout or hexing.
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I'm going to take a little while to parse and digest that first point, I think.
As for the second, what I had in mind was, I suppose, semi-directed fallout ("It's time for some indiscriminate destruction...over there, where the bad guys are standing"), but not merely when he is compelled, because I can envision situations when he would at least break even in such an exchange, or even come out ahead (if his enemies crowd together a few dozen yards away in an otherwise empty field...)
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Kinda goes against what you said, but if you actually want to do an apprentice wizard prodigy (not just a crafter) why not just create one with a 5 conviction and a 1-2 discipline? From there put all your focus item slots into control instead of power...
Just seems like you are making things very complicated for little reason (other than mechanically you could make bigger booms).
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From a straight balance standpoint the issue I can see is this: You're getting potentially 8-12 shift evocation effects for 1 mental stress a pop. In comparison to evocation that's pretty powerful.
But the idea sounds really cool and I like it.
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If I were GMing, I wouldn't let you do this as it seems to me that you're trying to powergame around Evocation (maximizing stress use).
Also, to do what you'd like (the aspect compel), you'd need at least two fate points (for Channeling as a temporary power).
Personally, I think that this build is mechanically clunky, reeks of powergaming, and actually less than effective.
There's an easy way to build the type of character you're thinking of:
Put all of your Specializations in Power.
Put all of your Focus Items in Control (for various stuff, likely focusing on your rote spells for the extra bonus).
Have a higher Conviction than Discipline.
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If I were GMing, I wouldn't let you do this as it seems to me that you're trying to powergame around Evocation (maximizing stress use).
A) The most basic foundation of building a powerful evocator or crafter is to maximize stress use. NOT maximizing stress use is the path to creating an ineffective caster.
B) Generally, when the GM has misgivings about potential character, they should work WITH the player to resolve those misgivings, rather than simply banning what they're trying to do.
C) Personal misgivings about the potential balance issues being exactly the reason I brought this to the boards, I'm looking for statements a bit more helpful than this one.
Also, to do what you'd like (the aspect compel), you'd need at least two fate points (for Channeling as a temporary power).
I'd actually thought of that, and I think I'd be fine with it. Except that that would 'buy' me Channeling for the duration of the scene, not a single instance.
(the fate point cost would almost undoubtedly be discounted by concurrent compels, in that case, to create unnecessary collateral damage)
Personally, I think that this build is mechanically clunky, reeks of powergaming, and actually less than effective.
Those last two clauses seem mutually exclusive to me.
There's an easy way to build the type of character you're thinking of:
Put all of your Specializations in Power.
Put all of your Focus Items in Control (for various stuff, likely focusing on your rote spells for the extra bonus).
Have a higher Conviction than Discipline.
The skill with thaumaturgy that this character would require makes reliance on control bonuses in that arena problematic (he needs a control of at least 5 in a handful of thaumaturgical disciplines). The refinement cost of doing so with a low discipline would make this character an instant NPC.
If there was an easier way to take a penalty to a skill in one area of its use, I'd do that, but since I'm not aware of one, I haven't gone that route.
There's a reason I'm using 'workarounds'.
What I'm looking for is a way to keep those in line, balance-wise.
I think that also covers tymire's response, too.
@sinker
Well, it's 8-12 shifts with 4-6 targeting. It's pretty powerful when it lands. (right now I have his 'foci' spec.ed for some of the non-standard evocation effects, that actually benefit quite a bit more from high power than from high control (multiple-instance maneuvers, offensive blocks, 'grapples', etc.)
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They're not mutually exclusive. It reeks of powergaming, it's just not very good at it. I wouldn't allow it because my group has a standing rule that we don't try to work the system because of the escalation that it inevitably causes.
My misgiving about the balance issues? It's a clunky way to do something that there are already rules for that results in higher potential damage output. Basically, it's a work around within the system that it makes it seem like you are doing in order to avoid paying refresh. If you want to sling power and have an item without charges, it's called Evocation with a focus item. There is already a rule for it and in my mind, existing rule trumps "clever" way to figure out how to do it within the rules.
Even if you only use Channeling once you should still buy it for the duration of the scene. The fact that I only need Evocation to cast a single "uberspell" doesn't mean that I shouldn't have to pay for it. You buy the power and can do what you like with it. Just because you're not using it to its full potential doesn't make it cheaper.
Why would he require that skill? Thaumaturgy is primarily about getting high Lore so you can max out complexity. Adding shifts to things is relatively easy, even with low conviction or discipline because you have lots of time. Actually, Thaumaturgy is pretty easy period as long as you have all the time in the world. When you don't, it's thematically appropriate that a character who can't work the quick and dirty spellcasting would have difficulty doing the complicated spellcasting quickly. It's the flavor of the setting.
You can even have roughly equal discipline and conviction and make this character work. Your aspect is plenty for a GM to simply compel when you don't have your focus items to make your spell go ka-blooey. Pumping specializations in power now means that your character, even with equal discipline and conviction can lose control over spells (your rotes should all require your focus items, thus forcing you to control every spell cast without them).
It's possible to do within the current system, but I don't think you like it because the character concept is not mechanically optimal, so you're trying to create a character that is both mechanically optimal but flawed. You just seem to only want him to be flawed when you'd like rather than actually flawed.
Even in your potential ka-blooey scenario, you theoretically get the power for free due to how many compels you seem to be assuming you'd get. A power that does the effect that you'd like and leaves you with relatively the same number, if not more, fate points. You may even be able to actually control it if your GM doesn't compel it to fail completely (which you want it to do and thus would give you another fate point). Again, this seems like you are working the system.
Ultimately, I think we disagree on simple character design theory. Still, I feel that misgivings about this type of build really need to be stated as it is a relatively easy build for one to come up with.
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It's possible to do within the current system, but I don't think you like it because the character concept is not mechanically optimal, so you're trying to create a character that is both mechanically optimal but flawed. You just seem to only want him to be flawed when you'd like rather than actually flawed.
Even in your potential ka-blooey scenario, you theoretically get the power for free due to how many compels you seem to be assuming you'd get. A power that does the effect that you'd like and leaves you with relatively the same number, if not more, fate points. You may even be able to actually control it if your GM doesn't compel it to fail completely (which you want it to do and thus would give you another fate point). Again, this seems like you are working the system.
Ultimately, I think we disagree on simple character design theory. Still, I feel that misgivings about this type of build really need to be stated as it is a relatively easy build for one to come up with.
Seems to me you're jumping to some conclusions about who Tedronai is just because that's one possible motivation. You know what they say about assumptions.
What we should be focusing on (instead of making personal attacks) is this one specific tweak. Can someone reduce the frequency of an item lower than 1 to increase the power as per the usual rules for that? As he's said he'd be willing to spend the two FP to pick up channeling as per the rules. So other than that one bit this is all RAW.
I'd also point out that compels when done properly are not happy fun candy. Just because you're getting fate points for it does not mean it you just got that power for free. It means you got that power for some serious story complications.
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that it likely won't make a huge difference either way or it might actually be less powerful than it would if you left it RAW. If it costs you 1 mental stress to sling around these effects that's less total shifts than if you have a slightly reduced effect with two uses for 1 mental stress. If that makes any sense.... Two spells at 2 less shifts of power is better than one spell at the higher power. I think that makes sense....
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Seems to me you're jumping to some conclusions about who Tedronai is just because that's one possible motivation. You know what they say about assumptions.
What we should be focusing on (instead of making personal attacks) is this one specific tweak. Can someone reduce the frequency of an item lower than 1 to increase the power as per the usual rules for that? As he's said he'd be willing to spend the two FP to pick up channeling as per the rules. So other than that one bit this is all RAW.
I'd also point out that compels when done properly are not happy fun candy. Just because you're getting fate points for it does not mean it you just got that power for free. It means you got that power for some serious story complications.
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that it likely won't make a huge difference either way or it might actually be less powerful than it would if you left it RAW. If it costs you 1 mental stress to sling around these effects that's less total shifts than if you have a slightly reduced effect with two uses for 1 mental stress. If that makes any sense.... Two spells at 2 less shifts of power is better than one spell at the higher power. I think that makes sense....
I think you summed it up nicely.
There is one issue that I, myself, would be concerned about as possible fallout from its allowance outside of individual-case assessment, and that is the possible (further) breaking of the specialization pyramid with enchanted items. That pyramid is already broken, though, by the RAW allowance of decreases in power to increase frequency (making power specializations inarguably more useful than frequency specializations regardless of circumstance). So far, I've avoided that issue simply by not having this character take frequency specializations in the first place, but a general acceptance of such a houserule would have to face greater balance scrutiny.
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I don't think it's all that bad for powergaming. You still need a targeting roll.
Plus, with a 12 shift item, you can't really go any higher than that.
A wizard on the other hand can. An evocator with sponsored magic can do even better.
::shrug::
I think the idea for the character is needlessly complicated, but I still like it.
Another idea would be for the PC to have a high conviction, a low discipline, and a power of like... -1 Raw Power. "The character has +2 to conviction for the purpose of drawing power for evocations."
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Except that this kind of power would circumvent the specialization skill and would be a lot more powerful than the equivalent refinement. -1 refresh gives you a focus item that gives +2 power to a single element of evocation for either defense or offense. A lot more limited than a flat +2 power to evocations.
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Except that this kind of power would circumvent the specialization skill and would be a lot more powerful than the equivalent refinement. -1 refresh gives you a focus item that gives +2 power to a single element of evocation for either defense or offense. A lot more limited than a flat +2 power to evocations.
The -1 = 2 conviction thing would be a one time thing, though. It would also not aid in control of said power. ::shrug::
I'd only allow it if the character's high concept or backstory made it thematically appropriate, but considering wizards only get around 4 evocations per scene, I don't think it's broken as long as a point of refresh is paid for it.
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It's almost certainly broken on a high-refresh wizard, though. The specialization pyramid imposes significant diminishing returns after a few purchases of Refinement. This sidesteps that.
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It's almost certainly broken on a high-refresh wizard, though. The specialization pyramid imposes significant diminishing returns after a few purchases of Refinement. This sidesteps that.
For a high refresh wizard, 1 instance of -1 refresh for +2 to both defensive and offensive power instead of either defensive /or/ offensive power (with a focus item) is not going to break anything.
The targeting/control roll is what I worry about.
If a wizard makes an OMG powerful shield, you just wait it out and stack aspects. If a wizard throws 50 shifts of power with a 4 shift targeting/control roll (which would be impossible but still..) ...yawn.
I would not allow a free +2 to discipline, but conviction, for the sole purpose of evocation, for use with a character whose high concept lists them as abnormally strong but bad at control...
I'd definitely allow it.
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I a wizard makes an OMG powerful shield and you wait it out, you might lose. You can't "stack" aspects normally; you have to use them as soon as possible or you lose the free tag. And just before the shield runs out of duration, the wizard can reroll to redirect it into an attack spell, atfter he has done a "focused" aspect himself for a better attack roll.
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I a wizard makes an OMG powerful shield and you wait it out, you might lose. You can't "stack" aspects normally; you have to use them as soon as possible or you lose the free tag.
Not if they're sticky - and if you have skills in the 4s and 5s, a few rounds to do NGMs should easily result in some sticky aspects.
And just before the shield runs out of duration, the wizard can reroll to redirect it into an attack spell, atfter he has done a "focused" aspect himself for a better attack roll.
True, but the wizard will have already wasted a round casting the shield and a round extending it, whereas the wizard's opposition could have started running and stacking aspects immediately.
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I think the idea for the character is needlessly complicated, but I still like it.
Another idea would be for the PC to have a high conviction, a low discipline
Except that, as I said, for him to be able to be versatile with high-complexity thaumaturgy, he'd need either a high discipline, or a crapload of thaumaturgical control bonuses.
That, or be prepared to drop a handful of fate points just to prevent those rituals from blowing up in his face.
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Except that, as I said, for him to be able to be versatile with high-complexity thaumaturgy, he'd need either a high discipline, or a crapload of thaumaturgical control bonuses.
That, or be prepared to drop a handful of fate points just to prevent those rituals from blowing up in his face.
Well... you have a point.
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If a wizard makes an OMG powerful shield, you just wait it out and stack aspects. If a wizard throws 50 shifts of power with a 4 shift targeting/control roll (which would be impossible but still..) ...yawn.
Hmm not too sure I agree with that. With 50 shifts you could cover a lot of ground, make it fairly long duration..... Can easily see that destroying pretty much building standing going to the point of "rocks fall everyone dies".
Another idea would be for the PC to have a high conviction, a low discipline, and a power of like... -1 Raw Power. "The character has +2 to conviction for the purpose of drawing power for evocations."
*Shrug* make it a stunt where the +2 power comes at a price of a -1 or a -2 control roll.
My biggest problem is with the first part of the post. If you go this way you definitely are not going to be a wizard prodigy (you don't even qualify to join the white council), you technically aren't even a sorcerer. In fact you probably never will as am betting most of your new refresh would be spent on refinements instead of buying channeling/envoc and if you are buying it why start out this way?
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My biggest problem is with the first part of the post. If you go this way you definitely are not going to be a wizard prodigy (you don't even qualify to join the white council), you technically aren't even a sorcerer. In fact you probably never will as am betting most of your new refresh would be spent on refinements instead of buying channeling/envoc and if you are buying it why start out this way?
Because it creates a story for the character to grow through.... Wizard prodigy is probably not the proper term, but I understood his intent plenty. This is a young apprentice wizard with a lot of potential and not a lot of interest in learning how to control it "the hard way." Makes plenty of sense to me.
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My biggest problem is with the first part of the post. If you go this way you definitely are not going to be a wizard prodigy (you don't even qualify to join the white council), you technically aren't even a sorcerer. In fact you probably never will as am betting most of your new refresh would be spent on refinements instead of buying channeling/envoc and if you are buying it why start out this way?
If your biggest problem is with the fluff, ignore it. I'm looking for game balance assessments, not fluff preferences.
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In terms of game balance, it is hard to say how a character with significant opportunities to make things to 'boom' accidentally should be built, as it has a good deal with both how the player role-plays the character, and how the GM/Storyteller handles the character as well.
I built one such character for the playtest, and subsequently annihilated one square block of San Fransisco by accident...
In my case, I had a character with high Conviction (Superb +5), Evocation, and essentially no Lore or Discipline. My character also had a number of Aspects which revolved around his latent talent/power and complete lack of training.
With the idea of using Thaumaturgy/Ritual Magic and Enchanted Items or Potions to allow a practioner to 'cast' Evocation-type spells, I can see how that can be done, but with some fairly strict limitations.
For Enchanted Items, the effect (Fire blast, Spirit force shield, etc) and power of the item must be chosen at the time of item selection. Additionally, the Power of the item is limited both by the size of the item (and therefore the number of Enchanted Item slots it has...) and the Lore of character, with a maximum Power of Lore x2. In order to get the item to that level, the character needs to devote Enchanted Item slots specifically to increase the Power of the item beyond the character's Lore skill. If a character wants to subject themselves to Mental stress to get additional uses of the Enchanted Item beyond whatever number they would normally get per session, that if fine by me, but they are still limited to whatever pre-selected magical effects the player chose to equip the character with.
For Potions (which are really just consumable enchanted items) they can be chosen at the start of a session, or on the fly via Lore rolls and/or Fate point usage. However, these can't be used repeatedly by having the character take Mental stress, so no more Potions than the character has Potions slots and the effect is still limited to a max strength of Lore, or Lore x2 if Aspects were invoked during 'Potion' creation of use, as well as being limited to whatever effect the player chose for the potion to be.
Additionally and it is very important to note, if the character does not have their Enchanted Items or Potions with them, they are completely incapable of achieving Evocation-type effects since they can only perform Thaumaturgy/Ritual Magic.
With that last restriction in mind, if the idea is for a character to be able to handle significant Evocation-type castings when properly equipped, but still able to cast (albeit have no control over their magic when not equipped,) it might make more sense for the character to have either Channeling, Evocation, or a relevant Sponsored Magic instead of Thaumaturgy/Ritual Magic.
-Cheers