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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: gojj on August 29, 2011, 11:19:37 PM
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I only have access to the PDF and was wondering if there were any significant changes in the book regarding Crafting. I'm asking because after I made my Crafter (with help from this community) and used him in a game, I found he was stupidly overpowered. This is his power section:
He was a Lore of Superb (5)
-2: Ritual: Crafting
-6: Refinement
Jacket: +5 Crafting Strength
Pocket Watch: +3 Crafting Frequency
Right Glove: 10 Water Shield. 4 uses
Left Glove: 10 Fire Shield, 4 uses
Necklace: 10 Spirit Block. 4 uses
Pencil: 10 Earth Maneuver, 4 uses
Ring: 10 Air Blast, 4 uses
7 Potion Slots
According to the PDF I have not broken any rules, my items do not exceed twice my Lore in Strength, my focus items do not individually exceed my Lore, but having potions with Strength 10 that have 4 uses each was just broken. During play I made each potion only single use and we still waltzed passed some very difficult confrontations. The enchanted items (while powerful) were less of a problem because their limited uses seemed to affect them more than the potions. Are there any revamped rules in the book that contradict the PDF regarding Crafting?
And on a semi-unrelated note, what does the Focus Specialization for Crafting do? The PDF describes it as "increas[ing] the limit on how many bonuses may be placed on a single focus item" (YS 280) but I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean that if you have a Focus Specialization of one a focus item can have a total bonus of your Lore +1?
[Edit: Changed the name of one of the Enchanted Items to avoid confusion]
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You must mean the pre-release PDF they distributed last year. Yeah, they made some changes to the crafting rules that would probably alter your results a bunch, but I'm nowhere near qualified to explain how it was changed without just quoting large segments of the book en masse. (I don't think the Evil Hat would like that.)
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Um, you have the pre-release PDF and not the final release? If so you can go http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26049.msg1108693.html#msg1108693 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26049.msg1108693.html#msg1108693) for instructions on how to get the final release copy.
If you have the final release then there are no differences between that and the book.
Richard
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And on a semi-unrelated note, what does the Focus Specialization for Crafting do? The PDF describes it as "increas[ing] the limit on how many bonuses may be placed on a single focus item" (YS 280) but I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean that if you have a Focus Specialization of one a focus item can have a total bonus of your Lore +1?
No. It means that you can fit more bonuses into a smaller focus item. (I think. I'll admit the wording isn't 100% clear.)
As for crafters... Yes, they can get exceptionally powerful without going outside the limits of the rules; the PDF and book should be about the same there. If your character is too strong and is unbalancing the game, I'd suggest simply toning back on your abilities; were I statting such a character, I'd drop three points of refinement, pick up a resources stunt for an arcane lab, maybe a contacts stunt for suppliers (and consumers) of eldritch goods, add in The Sight (though probably not soulgaze), drop the frequency bonus item to +1, drop the power bonus item to +3, lose two of the defensive items, the pencil (since I don't think just "earth maneuver" is a sufficiently defined effect), and one of the potion slots. That still leaves the character quite powerful and flexible, but a bit more rounded, and hopefully less likely to upstage anyone that's not ridiculously optimized.
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Your math checks out against the book. I've heard that there were a fair number of changes in this area between the pre-release PDFs and the books, but what you've listed is fine. I assume your necklace Block and your pencil Maneuver are more specifically statted out?
For your enchanted items generally, note that you can pay 1 mental stress per additional use after their base uses per session have run out.
As has been said many times before, optimized Crafters (and yours is a good example) are easy to build and quite powerful. My own preference for this type of character is to keep the character optimized and then handle the "overshadowing other characters" potential through mid-game decisions. For instance, if someone else can handle a problem perfectly well, but you can make a Lore declaration and use a potion to smash the problem to tiny bits...find something else useful to do. I think it's a good idea in this circumstance to shift the focus off yourself by encouraging others and celebrating their successes (out of character, generally, but also in character if that makes sense). Balance problems don't have to be game-breaking; and it can be useful to have a bit of extra leverage if your group gets smacked with an accidentally over-tuned encounter. IMO, YMMV, etc.
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I did shorten the Enchanted Items to "Earth Maneuver, Spirit Block, etc." to save space and I thought it was easier to see the math this way. I also did mean the Pre-release PDF, but I had no idea they re-released it, I'm going to look into that now (feel kinda stupid regarding that one).
I was thinking of a few ways to nerf my guy, and some of those ways were suggested. I thought I should drop the power to eight so I don't exceed the skill ladder and dropping the frequency (suggested by wyvren) was the easiest solution so I'll do that and see where that leaves me. Thank you all for your advice.
However a couple other questions just occurred to me as I was re-reading the Crafting Section. 1. What would happen to my items and potions if I went through a threshold uninvited? I assume they would be effected by the same difficulties that normal Wizards would face, but I'm not sure because I have already imparted the magic into the items, it is just waiting to be released. 2. Would strong potions set off the same "alarms" strong focus items or strong enchanted items would. I know the book states that those able to detect such items consider a strong focus item equivalent to a gun, but are potions significantly harder to detect? I've only read the first three Dresden books so far but from that it seems that much of the strength of potions comes from the mundane ingredients and the magic inputted is akin to adding the finishing spices, just a pinch is enough.
Thank you all for your input once again and I apologize if these answers can be found in the book and I'm just not looking hard enough.
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However a couple other questions just occurred to me as I was re-reading the Crafting Section. 1. What would happen to my items and potions if I went through a threshold uninvited? I assume they would be effected by the same difficulties that normal Wizards would face, but I'm not sure because I have already imparted the magic into the items, it is just waiting to be released.
That is an outstanding question. I'd personally handle it much like Sir Stuart's gun crossing outside the circle. If you retain them or perform actions with them based on your will, they're nerfed. If a resident picks up one that you dropped or gave to them, they work full strength. In other words, treat the threshold nerfing as stuck to the uninvited character's will rather than the items.
Example: Throwing a magic grenade past a threshold: nerfed. Throwing a magic grenade to someone inside who's invited and giving up possession of it: not nerfed.
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The major difference that I remember is that in the pre-release copy 1 enchanted item slot = 2 potion slots. In the current copy 1 enchanted item slot = 1 potion slot, which could make a difference.
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The major difference that I remember is that in the pre-release copy 1 enchanted item slot = 2 potion slots. In the current copy 1 enchanted item slot = 1 potion slot, which could make a difference.
Though in the OP's listing, he was using 1 EI slot = 1 potion slot already.
(Ritual = 2 FI slots, Refx6 = 12 FI slots, 14 total FI slots. 8 slots used for jacket/watch FIs, 6 left. 6 FI slots = 12 EI slots, subtracting out 5 EI leaves 7 potion slots.)
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Keep in mind that this is at least a -8 character; he's by no means a newbie EI crafter. In fact, he's dedicated six major milestones worth of refresh to nothing but improving his crafting abilities. If he's so completely focused on one thing to the point that he has no power at all without his items, let them be powerful. It's not like he's got a lot of versatility going for him outside the seven potions.
You might consider house ruling that potions cause nasty side effects if used more than one per scene (Storm Front). In fact, that wouldn't be a bad addition to the RAW as it's definitively canon.
You also might consider that carrying seven potions worth of containers around is pretty bulky, especially multi-use ones. The GM could start penalizing Athletics and other appropriate skills as the number he chooses to have on him in a scene increases past two or three. Unless he's got them in a backpack or some such, then the GM could require a supplemental or even standard action to get the right one out. That's not so much a house rule as it is normal GM arbitration, like any other character choosing to carry more than is really feasible.
Finally, consider talking to your GM and reminding him that EIs can be neutralized in play in quite a few ways. The pocket watch number two (you did mean two separate watches, right? not one being both a focus item and enchanted item?), pencil, and potions would require you having free hands. None of the items are likely to work in running water and potions could be ruined entirely. Then you have Kamori's "yoink" spell that she used on the book in DB. Or the possibility that going into what was supposed to be a social situation visibly loaded for bear is likely to cause serious issues.
I'm not saying the GM should nerf their ability to be used but giving you enough headaches using them that the character isn't scene stealing every time wouldn't be a bad part of a solution. It would even be a good way to gather up fate points if you had an aspect like More Stuff Than I Can Keep Track Of. Which might be invoked to find it anyway if you missed a Lore role on having the potion you were looking for. Or something similar. That's just off the top of my head, feel free to modify as you see fit.
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Though in the OP's listing, he was using 1 EI slot = 1 potion slot already.
(Ritual = 2 FI slots, Refx6 = 12 FI slots, 14 total FI slots. 8 slots used for jacket/watch FIs, 6 left. 6 FI slots = 12 EI slots, subtracting out 5 EI leaves 7 potion slots.)
I didn't want to do the math. ;D Just one difference I remember.
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Keep in mind that this is at least a -8 character; he's by no means a newbie EI crafter. In fact, he's dedicated six major milestones worth of refresh to nothing but improving his crafting abilities. If he's so completely focused on one thing to the point that he has no power at all without his items, let them be powerful. It's not like he's got a lot of versatility going for him outside the seven potions.
You might consider house ruling that potions cause nasty side effects if used more than one per scene (Storm Front). In fact, that wouldn't be a bad addition to the RAW as it's definitively canon.
You also might consider that carrying seven potions worth of containers around is pretty bulky, especially multi-use ones. The GM could start penalizing Athletics and other appropriate skills as the number he chooses to have on him in a scene increases past two or three. Unless he's got them in a backpack or some such, then the GM could require a supplemental or even standard action to get the right one out. That's not so much a house rule as it is normal GM arbitration, like any other character choosing to carry more than is really feasible.
Finally, consider talking to your GM and reminding him that EIs can be neutralized in play in quite a few ways. The pocket watch number two (you did mean two separate watches, right? not one being both a focus item and enchanted item?), pencil, and potions would require you having free hands. None of the items are likely to work in running water and potions could be ruined entirely. Then you have Kamori's "yoink" spell that she used on the book in DB. Or the possibility that going into what was supposed to be a social situation visibly loaded for bear is likely to cause serious issues.
I'm not saying the GM should nerf their ability to be used but giving you enough headaches using them that the character isn't scene stealing every time wouldn't be a bad part of a solution. It would even be a good way to gather up fate points if you had an aspect like More Stuff Than I Can Keep Track Of. Which might be invoked to find it anyway if you missed a Lore role on having the potion you were looking for. Or something similar. That's just off the top of my head, feel free to modify as you see fit.
I think these suggestions are decent (I particularly like the Aspect suggestion, see next paragraph), but I'd want to throw out a general caution about using ad-hoc rules to address potential balance issues. Tying down a dedicated Crafter with some house rules may seem like a good idea, but if the net effect is to make Crafting not worth the pain for his generalist Wizard friend, you're probably using too much of the wrong solution. A good rule should be a good rule in most of the places it's likely to come up, or it's a bad rule (not ALL of the places, just most). If you're telling your Crafter that he's got to take penalties for juggling equipment, make sure the gun bunny pure mortal guy is doing the same thing if he's packing a ton of heat.
For practitioners generally, I strongly encourage looking at the Blind Spots sidebar on YS179. Naturally, your High Concept is going to reference the fact that you're a practitioner, and it will be available whenever you're doing the magic thing. Picking a normal Aspect that clarifies your specific style reinforces your strengths and suggests opportunities for additional compels (Harry's "Not So Subtle, Still Quick To Anger" or Molly's "Subtlety Is Its Own Power"). If your character is the type of focused prodigy that has every available point of refresh sunk into spellcasting, adding a second normal Aspect might be warranted (Harry's "My Mother's Silver Pentacle").
The Mighty Buzzard's suggestion of "More Stuff Than I Can Keep Track Of" should give you a great deal of leeway in your Lore Declarations to have just exactly the right oddball item on you (especially if you use a FP to Invoke for Effect), and also gives you the chance to self-compel on "dammit, I can't seem to find my [useful item]" as needed. For instance, let's say a challenge shows up, and the Crafter says, "Lore Declaration, I made [useful potion X] earlier." The GM responds, "Sure, but you've got More Stuff Than You Can Keep Track Of, and I think you left that one on the rack by the door in your lab (holding up a FP token)." The Crafter says, "Huh, you're right, I can't seem to find it in my backpack (accepts the token), but hey look! I'd forgotten about this! (slides the token back to the GM) An extra bottle of [useful potion Y, suggesting a different way around whatever the challenge was]." Compel accepted; followed by an Invoke for Effect.
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Once again thank you all for your input and once again I apologize for the confusion in the Enchanted Item department, I just gave them simple names hoping it would make things...well..simpler.
You might consider house ruling that potions cause nasty side effects if used more than one per scene (Storm Front). In fact, that wouldn't be a bad addition to the RAW as it's definitively canon.
The pocket watch number two (you did mean two separate watches, right? not one being both a focus item and enchanted item?)
To be honest I thought the two potion at once was already somewhere in the rules because it was (like you said) clearly in the novels. Now that I think about it I don't think that I ever saw it in the YS or OW, I just assumed. But yes I agree that should be the case, especially since my guy's potions are two to three times more powerful than Dresden's. And yes they are different watches...I didn't notice that I had two of them, will change that now to avoid confusion.
I'm not saying the GM should nerf their ability to be used but giving you enough headaches using them that the character isn't scene stealing every time wouldn't be a bad part of a solution. It would even be a good way to gather up fate points if you had an aspect like More Stuff Than I Can Keep Track Of. Which might be invoked to find it anyway if you missed a Lore role on having the potion you were looking for. Or something similar. That's just off the top of my head, feel free to modify as you see fit.
I also like the thought of adding an aspect that can be compelled so I don't have the right potion. To be honest I always struggle with aspects, they always seem to either be difficult to get compelled from or difficult for me to invoke with a chip, I have trouble finding the balance, and of course they also should be cool and/or interesting. I included an aspect referencing my plethora of both Enchanted Items and potions "I'm a human Swiss Army Knife", but now that I look at it I see that it cannot really be used by the GM to compel me that I'm missing the current needed potion. I thought about "Just the right stuff", I can use it to declare that yes I do have just the right stuff, or the GM can compel me saying that no, you do not have just the right stuff at this moment.
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I included an aspect referencing my plethora of both Enchanted Items and potions "I'm a human Swiss Army Knife", but now that I look at it I see that it cannot really be used by the GM to compel me that I'm missing the current needed potion. I thought about "Just the right stuff", I can use it to declare that yes I do have just the right stuff, or the GM can compel me saying that no, you do not have just the right stuff at this moment.
Honestly, those are going be tough for the GM to compel is any sort of negative fashion.
Ideally, you'd want an aspect that can be construed both positively and negatively and also one that can be used in various ways in different situations. Take, for example, the aspect "Magical Pack Rat"... You can compel it yourself to be certain that you have just the right potion handy. The GM can compel it to make it take longer to find that perfect potion, amongst all the other junk you've got floating around your extradimensional purse. The GM can compel it to force you to take extra time searching for and collecting (nearly) useless magical trinkets. The GM can also compel it to get you pick up something that magically suspect or dangerous against your better judgement. You can compel it to make certain you actually have the Chekov's Gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun?from=Main.ptitlexn9xzsjd5fif) that nobody thought to pick up earlier, but is practically necessary solve the current dilemma. And so on...
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The aspect I used for my crafter was "I Prepared for Everything... Except THIS!"
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Nod nod. My wizard has a Brains Over "Boom" aspect that has him almost always setting someone else up with a maneuver or block rather than blasting away. Any time he has to blast away he's going to get an interesting compel. Or I can invoke it for added potency on a block/maneuver that I really need to stick.
I dig it because it makes me use my head to come up with new and creative ways to handle a situation rather than the tried and true overpowered Fuego and let all the overage go as Fallout approach.
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There is always the magically inquisitive pixie who investigates the potion carrying characters backpack.
He doesn't do anything harmful. He doesn't activate any of them. And he carefully puts the labels back on, and he is Quite sure he put the labels on the same potion bottles they were on originally.
Might want to just do a Lore check before using that potion, just to be sure. ;)
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Right Glove: 10 Water Shield. 4 uses
Left Glove: 10 Fire Shield, 4 uses
Necklace: 10 Spirit Block. 4 uses
Pencil: 10 Earth Maneuver, 4 uses
Ring: 10 Air Blast, 4 uses
7 Potion Slots
OK, so you have 4 direct attacks at power 10, 4 maneuvers at power 10, 8 shields at power 10, and 4 blocks at power 10. You are not into full Thaumaturgy therefore you do not have the flexibility to summon, bind, conjure, divine, veil, or ward (just craft) nor do you get the +1 craft specialty that extra point yields (which would "negate" one point of refinement so to speak) except for "potions" which the GM could counter to a degree. I think the Thaumaturgy (-3) with craft specialty and losing 4 potion would work ok. You also do not have the flexibility of Evocation (typically 3-5 spells at "safe" levels or such per scene). Note that each one of your items/groups would have a pre-defined affect just like a Rote spell, and can not be altered on the fly (which is likely why you saved 7 potions back) therefore you could not the take advantage of having extra Fate Points. Character with Channeling instead could cast 3-5 spells a scene (which may or may not yield more affects depending on the difference between scenes and sessions) and hit similar power levels, albeit it may be more difficult. Tough character but not quite as overwhelming from that standpoint, basically a basher with a hold-card for flexibility (potions) and physical & mental defenses. Less impressive in campaigns with multiple scenes per session.
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For those who see compels as a good avenue for toning down Crafters, consider that just as *every* Wizard has a High Concept aspect that can be compelled for things like involuntary hexing, *every* Crafter also must have a High Concept that is suitable for compels relating to the risks involved in Crafting.
Lets say, for example, that the Crafter in question has just been thrown against a wall by a Vamp with Superhuman Strength. He decides to pull out his Magic Pencil (as per the OP example), hoping to use an Earth Maneuver to knock the vamp down, possibly allowing him to escape. Unfortunately, the GM points out that the pencil was smashed when he hit the wall, and tosses him a Fate point for the compel against his Crafting-related High Concept. (Of course, the Crafter could buy off the compel.)
I admit I'm not a big fan of the Crafter-only concept for several reasons, one of which is that I think that a character should only have access to crafted magic they are able to cast on their own. That said, it wouldn't be hard to change the sample powerset in the OP by subtracting one refinement (say one that grants +2 worth of the crafting frequency focus) and using that refresh to upgrade Rituals (Crafting) to full Thaumaturgy. You'd then use your free specialization for +1 crafting frequency. Net change is 1 less use per session per item, but access to full Thaumaturgy in exchange. Another alternative would be to go with "Thematic" Rituals.
Of course, per the rules you don't actually need access to Crafting to be able to have focii and enchanted items. After all, characters with nothing but Channeling (Fire) still have two focus item slots worth of toys, which presumeably follow the normal crafting rules. Which means that even if you don't buy into my opinion on limiting crafted items to spells that you can actually cast, it is far more efficient to choose Channeling (Anything) or Rituals (Anything other than Crafting) instead of Rituals Crafting. You still have all of the same focus item slots, but can do something else with your base magic skill, as well.
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Sure, but the strength of the Crafter concept comes from the Focus Items boosting Strength and Frequency, and applying those bonuses to several enchanted items and potions. I don't know if it's actually stated anywhere, but I'd got the impression that your FIs were limited to your "elements," meaning you needed Ritual: Crafting or full Thaumaturgy to get the Strength/Frequency FIs.
I could be wrong, in which case a practitioner with Ritual: Ectomancy could have S/F FIs for the purposes of creating more powerful Ectomancy-themed enchanted items and potions. The tradeoff would be that those FIs don't boost non-Crafting Ectomancy rituals, and the usual limitation that themed Ritual only gets you enchanted items and potions within the theme.
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Sure, but the strength of the Crafter concept comes from the Focus Items boosting Strength and Frequency, and applying those bonuses to several enchanted items and potions. I don't know if it's actually stated anywhere, but I'd got the impression that your FIs were limited to your "elements," meaning you needed Ritual: Crafting or full Thaumaturgy to get the Strength/Frequency FIs.
Good point; I agree. So to get crafting spec bonuses, you need Ritual (Crafting) or Ritual (Any Theme) or Thaumaturgy (All). You are limited to spell effects you can create, so Ritual (Crafting) would need to be paired with Channeling or Evocation to do anything. If you don't have any of the above options -- ie, you have Channeling (Any), Evocation (Any), or Ritual (not Crafting), then you can't buy crafting specializations and are limited to basic crafting only.
EXCEPT.
If you look back to the OP, he was getting crafting bonuses from focus items, not specializations. Which is legit, though there's still the issue of having no spellcasting capabilities to apply to crafting.
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Good point; I agree. So to get crafting spec bonuses, you need Ritual (Crafting) or Ritual (Any Theme) or Thaumaturgy (All). You are limited to spell effects you can create, so Ritual (Crafting) would need to be paired with Channeling or Evocation to do anything. If you don't have any of the above options -- ie, you have Channeling (Any), Evocation (Any), or Ritual (not Crafting), then you can't buy crafting specializations and are limited to basic crafting only.
EXCEPT.
If you look back to the OP, he was getting crafting bonuses from focus items, not specializations. Which is legit, though there's still the issue of having no spellcasting capabilities to apply to crafting.
I think you misread what I wrote? I was ONLY talking about Focus Items (FIs), not specializations.
The point I was unsure about was whether someone with Ritual: Ectomancy could create and use a Focus Item that boosted Crafting Strength or Frequency, or whether he was limited to his "element" and could only create and use Focus Items that boosted Ectomancy Complexity or Control.
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Ah, right; let me regroup in this way.
The way Crafting (ie, obtaining a focus or enchanted item for a caster character) is built into the rules, Crafting (the subset of Thaumaturgy) is largely irrelevant. Per RAW, you gain access to FI/EI simply by having a power that provides slots: Channeling, Ritual, Evocation, Thaumaturgy, or Sponsored Magic. If you have only Channeling (Fire), for example, you still have two FI slots and can fill them as desired, despite not having Ritual (Crafting) or Thaumaturgy. And such a character could make new items at the relevant milestones, which implies that all spellcasters can Craft items, with or without the Crafting portion of Thaum. There are no RAW limits placed, so presumeably a Channeling (Fire) caster could have a focus that adds +1 to offensive spirit spells, though it's hard to see why they would do so, since it has no value for them. But they could also have one that adds +1 to crafting frequency, and that *would* benefit them, since it affects any slots they have.
That's the RAW, or at least my interpretation of them. So the non-crafter casters that you mention in your examples would be able to have crafting focus items.
That said, whether or not I'm correctly interpreting RAW, I disagree with that way of handling things; I don't think it makes sense. Instead, I think that all casters should be able to make focus/enchanted items that fit within their spellcasting abilities. So while a Channeling (Fire) caster could make a firebolt wand, or a focus that improves his fire channeling, he could not make an item that uses spirit effects. And while any caster has a capability to create magic items within their speciality, crafting focii fall within Thaumaturgy (Crafting) and should only be allowed to those with access to that aspect of magic.
Note, by the way, that the example you gave is a special case. Thematic Thaumaturgy specifically includes all functional divisions of Thaumaturgy as they relate to the Theme. So Ectomancy includes Crafting, but only with respect to the theme, and an Ectomancy could have a crafting focus because of that (though I would argue that the focus would only work for Ectomancy, even if someone else were to gain control of it).
So again, per the RAW, I think there are no explicit rules to say you can't make any item you want; so that Ectomancer you mentioned not only could have a crafting focus, but could use it to craft an (improved) wand of fire bolts. But I think that's an oversight.
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Has anyone mentioned that for the OP's example to be valid the character would have to have a Lore of 7?
(p.280: item's crafting strength with all bonuses added (extra frequency is a bonus) = or < 2x Lore)
Therefore if Lore is 5 then max power would be 10 (usable 1x/session) and max power usable 4x/session would be 7.
At least how the player of the Alchemist (Crafter) in out game read the sentence on p.280 c1 paragraph 2.
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Has anyone mentioned that for the OP's example to be valid the character would have to have a Lore of 7?
(p.280: item's crafting strength with all bonuses added (extra frequency is a bonus) = or < 2x Lore)
Therefore if Lore is 5 then max power would be 10 (usable 1x/session) and max power usable 4x/session would be 7.
At least how the player of the Alchemist (Crafter) in out game read the sentence on p.280 c1 paragraph 2.
No, the OP's math was correct. Extra frequency is not a bonus to crafting strength; those are separate things. You may sacrifice a point of strength to gain an extra use/session, but that's the only direct interplay between the two stats.
Crafting Strength is equal to the sum of your Lore, your Crafting (Strength) specialization bonus, your Crafting (Strength) Focus Item bonus, and the number of extra EI slots spent on Strength, minus the number of Strength points sacrificed to gain extra uses/session. This total is capped at 2x Lore.
Uses/session is equal to one plus the sum of your Crafting (Frequency) specialization bonus, your Crafting (Frequency) Focus Item bonus, two times the number of extra EI slots spent on Frequency, and the number of Strength points sacrificed to gain extra uses/session. This total is theoretically uncapped, but since you can spend mental stress to fuel enchanted items that have run out of uses/session, I think most people stop around 4-6 uses/session.
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There's a lot of over-my-head stuff going on, but I wasn't sure if it was mentioned that Thaum (all) crafters don't need Evocation to make any effect EI's, since all effects of Evocation can be duplicated with Thaumaturgy anyway.
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There's a lot of over-my-head stuff going on, but I wasn't sure if it was mentioned that Thaum (all) crafters don't need Evocation to make any effect EI's, since all effects of Evocation can be duplicated with Thaumaturgy anyway.
Yes, and by the RAW, the same is true for practitioners with only Ritual: Crafting.
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No, the OP's math was correct. Extra frequency is not a bonus to crafting strength; those are separate things. You may sacrifice a point of strength to gain an extra use/session, but that's the only direct interplay between the two stats.
Crafting Strength is equal to the sum of your Lore, your Crafting (Strength) specialization bonus, your Crafting (Strength) Focus Item bonus, and the number of extra EI slots spent on Strength, minus the number of Strength points sacrificed to gain extra uses/session. This total is capped at 2x Lore.
Then one of the better potential limiters is lost IMO.
I will have to consider what you have stated, go over it with my friend who is doing the Crafter, and figure out what the rules seem to be telling us before we bring what you have opined up with our GM.
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Then one of the better potential limiters is lost IMO.
I will have to consider what you have stated, go over it with my friend who is doing the Crafter, and figure out what the rules seem to be telling us before we bring what you have opined up with our GM.
If you feel the need to house-rule a limit on dedicated Crafter characters, there are several options available. Including Frequency points under the 2x Lore cap would be one of them, but it's definitely not RAW. I think the RAW are sufficiently balanced in this regard, but I don't play at your table, so my opinion there doesn't count for much in your game.
One of the consequences to your proposal is that Crafters have an effective cap of Lore to the total of their Strength + Frequency bonuses, rather than Strength capped at Lore and Frequency separately capped at Lore. In every other case, Power, Complexity, and Control bonuses are separately capped at Lore.
If you doubt my interpretation of the RAW, feel free to check the other threads on Crafting, there are rather a lot of them. All I can say is, to the best of my knowledge, what I wrote is the common understanding of the forum on this subject. Also, whether it's RAW or not, what works at your table works at your table.
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If I were looking to nerf Crafting, I'd probably do it in one of the following ways:
1. Remove the existence of crafting foci. You know how YS says you can't make a focus that helps you make foci? Extend that to enchanted items.
2. Remove the existence of the frequency specialization. You can exchange a point of power for a use anyway, which effectively means that nobody takes frequency until they've maxed out their power. This has the side benefit of removing the odd situation where, for a dedicated Crafter, sacrificing slots in order to give one item more uses provides less uses then simply duplicating the original item.
Neither of these houserules actually reduces the power of Crafting directly. They just limit how much a character can invest into the field. Which is good, because Crafting seems to be fairly balanced when the Crafter is not hyper-specialized.
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The Crafter build, as well as most other 'optimized' Caster builds, generally seem to depend on powerful foci. Knowing that, perhaps another simple yet effecive way to tone down such builds would be to limit the strength of any given focus to one, plus the character's largest specialization bonus. Ie, if a character's best specialization was +2 to Earth Control, then he could create foci (of any type) up to a strength of +3 (not just an Earth Control Focus).
From a balance perspective, this would mean that most starting casters would be limited to focus items of no more that 1-3 strength. Focused Practitioners would never get beyond +1, due to the inability to buy specializations (Crafters in particular could get at most +1 craft strength and +1 craft frequency focus items. Sorcerors would max out at +3 (limit of one refinement per skill means bonuses no better than +2/+1), and Wizards would have a slowly growing cap as they grew in strength.
Background-wise, this would reflect that novice casters can't create powerful focus items (though they could still create many weak ones, depending on FI slots available) -- but as the caster grows in capability, so does their ability to create more powerful casting tools.
All of the above, of course, lies firmly in the "house rules for those to whom it appeals" camp.
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That would effectively negate the problem from a high-powered Ritual-based Crafter, but it would do little about one relying on Thaumaturgy.
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Sanctaphrax is correct; here is math demonstrating the point:
Lore 5.
-3 Thaumaturgy (+1 Crafting Strength)
-1 Refinement (+1 Crafting Strength, +1 Crafting Frequency) (total: +2 Str +1 Fre in spec, 2+1=3 cap in FI bonus)
-3 Refinement x3 (Focus Item +3 Strength, Focus Item +3 Frequency)
-7 Refresh total.
Thaumaturgy FI slots and any additional Refinement converted to EI slots at +5 Strength, +4 Frequency, for at least (no additional Refinement) 4 EIs at Power 10, 5 uses/session.
Getting to the 5th point of bonus Frequency is hard, since you need at least 2 more Refinement, but 5 uses/session is generally sufficient.
(The generic Ritual: Crafting build is slightly more optimized under the RAW, but I'd prefer the Thaumaturgy build anyway. Spending half of one refresh to get the full range of Thaum is a hell of a lot of versatility for the price--the other half gives you the spec point. For a Feet In The Water Crafter, maybe not, but I'd likely drop a point of refresh in play for the upgrade at some point.)
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My understanding is that you may only buy a power if it is listed as an option by your template. Of those templates listed in the RAW, the only ones that allow Refinement (for more than just item slots) are Sorceror (max 1 per skill) and Wizard (no limit). Focused Practitioner does not allow them. My inference from this (and from the text on YS81 discussing it briefly) is that:
* Wizard-level magical aptitude (full access to magic, including Evocation AND Thaumaturgy AND The Sight) as well as Wizard-level training (ie, a White Council tutor, though other sources might be acceptable) is required to buy more than one Refinement per skill
* Sorceror-level magical aptitude (broad understanding of magic , including Evocation AND Thaumaturgy) and lots of practice is required to buy a single Refinement per skill
* Lesser magical aptitude (those with less than Sorceror-level abilities) leaves the caster unable to buy Refinement (except as additional slots)
Note that the above is inference. There is nothing that specifically states that you can't build a custom template that includes Ritual and unlimited Refinement, but there's lots of flavor text and implication that suggests the above scaling. And assuming you require any custom templates to scale in the same way the RAW templates do, I think the house rules I posted earlier would limit abusive caster builds fairly well. In Vairelome's example, the worst case would be:
Lore 5.
-3 Thaumaturgy (+1 Crafting Strength)
-2 Refinement x2 (Focus Item +2 Strength, Focus Item +2 Frequency)
-5 Refresh total, granting +3 strength and +2 frequency (up to 16 EIs at power 8, 3 uses). Which, I think, is within the realm of reasonable -- or at least much closer than the existing optimized Crafter build. A Crafter that achieved Sorcery-grade magic could achieve the item strength you proposed, but not as a baseline submerged character (it would take -10 refresh for 8 EIs at power 10, 5 uses).
As another option, you could limit the strength of focus items to the greatest specialization, minimum one (instead of greatest specialization +1). This would limit the Crafter build to power 7, 2 use items.
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My understanding is that you may only buy a power if it is listed as an option by your template.
Gah! Templates are not classes - at least not to my group. They're suggestions and starting points...but not limitations.
It is worth pointing out the statement on YS72: "...while the choices listed here are hardly the only ones available in the Dresdenverse, they represent...best options..." The templates do give us some "musts" - things characters must have to use one of the "pre-packaged character types". That said, I don't think any of the "musts" are prohibitive. The "musts" cover the minimum and the options cover the most common but we all know PCs are unique individuals.
At least that's how I read templates. However, I freely admit D&D has prejudiced me against "classes". ;)
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I don't think I'm the only one who totally ignores templates. I'd really rather not see any important element of the game's balance be based upon them.
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Can't say I totally ignore them...but I wouldn't really miss them if they'd been cut from YS. I do follow them for most NPCs, only occasionally do they break the mold. But PCs? Their molds often get thrown out very early in the process. :)
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As far as templates go in character creation, I'm generally in one of two modes. The first would be when I've got a very strong character concept in mind already, and I'm trying to find the rules that best fit my concept (often, this happens when I'm trying to port characters originally created in another system). In that case, templates? What templates? The other would be when I'm trying to create a new character from scratch, already knowing that the DFRPG is the intended setting. In that case, I find that the templates provide a useful starting point for concept bundles.
In neither case would I remotely consider the templates to be a hard-and-fast straightjacket, and the RAW support this pretty explicitly, in my opinion (actually, in stronger terms than I expected, on first reading). From YS54, the description of the Submerged power level:
Submerged (10 refresh, 35 skill points, skill cap at Superb): You are a major-leaguer; refined customization and combination are options for all templates--it becomes possible at this stage to be a Champion of God with a Sword of the Cross, a Werewolf who can do earth evocations, or a Red Court Infected who becomes an Emissary of the Buddha as a way of taming his impulse control. For the stronger templates, this power level provides some tweaking; for the weaker ones, it provides the chance to make your character supernaturally one of a kind.
A Werewolf who can do earth evocations? Yeah, somehow letting a Ritualist have Refinement doesn't seem so wacky any more.
Also, I was merely providing an illustration of the math, above, not an endorsement of the house rule. I agree that practitioners are powerful, including the better Crafter builds, but I think the RAW are fine as-is in this case. Naturally, other tables may feel differently.
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I stick to templates, but I let PCs have more than one if they want and can afford the refresh on the musts.
That said, there's nothing preventing a focused practioner to pick up Refinement as long as it's for focus items only.
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Right, Becq was just proposing a house rule that would sharply limit the degree to which focused practitioners could use FIs. An Ectomancy Ritualist would only be able to take Refinement twice (Ectomancy Power and Control +1, Crafting Strength and Frequency +1), while a Crafting Ritualist would only be able to take Refinement once (Crafting Strength and Frequency +1...unless he wanted to spend half a Refinement on Crafting Focus Items +1, which would be rather dumb).
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Gah! Templates are not classes - at least not to my group. They're suggestions and starting points...but not limitations.
It is worth pointing out the statement on YS72: "...while the choices listed here are hardly the only ones available in the Dresdenverse, they represent...best options..." The templates do give us some "musts" - things characters must have to use one of the "pre-packaged character types". That said, I don't think any of the "musts" are prohibitive. The "musts" cover the minimum and the options cover the most common but we all know PCs are unique individuals.
At least that's how I read templates. However, I freely admit D&D has prejudiced me against "classes". ;)
I don't believe I ever stated that characters should be limited to the templates provided in the book. What I *did* say was that custom classes -- especially those dealing with magical knowledge -- should be built to "fit in" with the existing templates. For example, the following should never be a valid template:
Twink
Twinks are those who have, through study or enlightenment, gained the understanding to manipulate all things supernatural.
Musts: None.
Options: Twinks are limited to purchasing powers from the following categories: Creature Features, Faerie Magic, Items of Power, Minor Abilities, Nevernever Powers, Psychic Abilities, Shapeshifting, Speed, Spellcraft, Strength, Toughness, True Faith, Vampirism.
Important Skills: Any
Minimum Refresh Cost: –0
This is obviously an extreme example, but creating a custom template that is basically a variant of a Focused Practitioner but allowing access to full-Wizard specialization is much the same.
@Vairelome: Almost, but the idea was to limit how strong a focus item a caster could create based on their training (as reflected by specializations), since many of the more unbalanced builds rely on the creation of extraordinarily strong focus items. The character could still buy unlimited item slot refinements, and could have a wide variety of weak focus items or a pile of enchanted items, but the limit on focus item strength would in turn make the enchanted items less overpowering.
As to combining templates, this is fine, too. Most of the existing templates have a minimum investment which also serves to prevent abuse. For example, with enough refresh, a Werewolf could develop into a full Wizard. But they would not be able to buy refinements (which is an option for Wizards) until they filled out the rest of the template (ie, finished their basic training, as it were).
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The Twink template looks a lot like the Scion template to me.
Anyway, I figure that if powers are made and balanced properly then any combination of them will also be balanced. I have no interest in restricting people to the canon templates, or in trying to balance templates that I make myself.
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The Twink template looks a lot like the Scion template to me.
The "Scion" template is only a sidebar suggestion how template customization might be used to convert an existing template (Changeling, which does have limitations) to represent other supernatural half-breeds. The Emissary is much closer to the "take whatever you want" powerset, but then it also comes with a significant bit of baggage listed under the 'Musts' section. The 'soft' control that requires that powers tie in well with the High Concept can also be cited as limiting powers.
Anyway, I figure that if powers are made and balanced properly then any combination of them will also be balanced. I have no interest in restricting people to the canon templates, or in trying to balance templates that I make myself.
Fair enough, and that's supported by the game. I'm just pointing out a way to introduce a minimal amount of structure into the rules to smoothly handle what are commonly (but not universally) considered problem builds for those who are looking for an answer to that issue. If that's not you, I'm certainly not going to shove them down your throat!
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Becq, I understand that you think optimized Crafters are overpowered, and are looking for a house rule to fix that. Naturally, a house rule is going to conflict with the RAW; that's the entire point. My concern is mostly limiting unintended consequences, and one of them that I can see is a house rule that substantially drops the upper power limit of all Focused Practitioners is going to conflict with some of the general world-building laid out in the books.
I was using Ectomancy as a generic example of a thematic Ritualist earlier, but what about Mortimer Lindquist specifically? Template-wise, he's a Focused Practitioner, and I believe he has Ritual: Ectomancy rather than Thaumaturgy, so no specializations for him. On the other hand, he should be written up as having at least a few quite powerful Focus Items. Note that even though the RAW says he wouldn't have access to specializations, he's also described on YS76 by Harry as "INCREDIBLY capable at what he does. Some of his tricks are stuff I'm not sure I could easily figure out myself." I think this supports the idea that the stat most closely tied to Ritualist skill and ability is Lore, not Thaumaturgical specializations (Morty would have a quite substantial Lore), and is why the RAW sets Lore as the cap on Focus Item strength.
Whatever house rule you end up adopting, I'd hope it wouldn't foreclose powerful Focused Practitioners. I think it would narrow your group's options overmuch if the only powerful practitioners available were Wizards. That said, your table, your rules, etc.
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Eh. The rules already make FPs inferior. The best way to be a high-powered pyromancer is to take Evocation with the following elements:
Red fire
White fire
Yellow fire.
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Eh. The rules already make FPs inferior. The best way to be a high-powered pyromancer is to take Evocation with the following elements:
Red fire
White fire
Yellow fire.
I think any player trying that at my table would get pelted by various snack foods from several directions.
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Would you rather they take fire, spirit and water?
What's wrong with weakening your own character for flavour reasons?
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Nothing in particular really. There are probably arguments to be made for both sides and neither of them could ever really be right since it's all subjective. We'd just assume whoever it was was being a wiseass. And knowing our group, we'd probably be right.
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It is a bit smartass-ish.
Maybe heat, smoke, and flame would be better elements. Smoke could do veils and some air stuff, while heat could do electricity and lasers and flame could do normal fire stuff.
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Maybe heat, smoke, and flame would be better elements. Smoke could do veils and some air stuff, while heat could do electricity and lasers and flame could do normal fire stuff.
This is a pretty cool idea, and something I may shamelessly rip off in my game.
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This is a pretty cool idea, and something I may shamelessly rip off in my game.
Somewhere around here is a thread or two about alternate Element structures (Including a pretty good physics-based one). You might want to check them out, too.
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Now that it's been mentioned I feel like I should have thought of it already. The entire point of the column system is to discourage obsessive specialization, not restrict concept. It's a very Fate way of creating specialists who can hang with Wizard level talents.
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I just re-read the section on focus items in YS and the exact text for Thaumaturgy Focus Items is
For thaumaturgy focuses, this bonus may be applied to the wizard’s upper bound on “no-prep” complexity (Lore) for thaumaturgy or to the wizard’s control (Discipline) rolls for casting. The type of bonus must be determined and locked down at the time the item is created.
so taking that at what is explicitly allowed crafting foci are against RAW because Crafting doesn't use complexity or control to cast and those are what's allowed to be boosted.
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And yet there are also example of them within your story (the cuppa elf who had a potion focus).
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That's not quite correct. It's true that thematic foci don't help you craft within their theme, but it is explicitly possible to create frequency and strength foci that help you craft. It says so in Your Story, page 280.
I kinda feel like making a set of Evocation-based focused practitioners now, but that's going to have to wait a while.
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Okay I see the part about crafting specializations, and I totally understand how those work, but that isn't the same as being able to have a focus item that grants you those bonuses. Focus items don't grant specializations they grant bonuses to either power or control (for evocation) or complexity or control (for thaumaturgy). Since crafting does gain bonuses to complexity or control the RAW would suggest that you can't make crafting foci.
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No, reread what Sanctaphrax and ways and means said just above. Crafting Focus Items are supported in the RAW.
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Okay I see the part about crafting specializations, and I totally understand how those work, but that isn't the same as being able to have a focus item that grants you those bonuses.
I believe they're referring to the top of YS280, right column. It states, "You can create focus items which are used to provide frequency and strength bonuses for crafting..."