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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: wyltok on February 11, 2013, 06:11:00 PM

Title: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 11, 2013, 06:11:00 PM
I was recently looking at Elegast's theory index (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35806.0.html) and was surprised to notice that the Gatekeeper is no longer up as a suspect for fixing Little Chicago. This surprised me, as I seem to recall that he was the original suspect. So I decided to make this topic to try to get him back on the list, as I consider him the most likely suspect; maybe I'll be able to convince others.

This topic can be seen as discussing two ideas. The first aspect will focus on the things that point to Rashid being the one who did it. A considerable part of this evidence is based on Rashid's ties with Winter, however, so the inevitable argument will be made that the evidence does not truly differentiate between Rashid and the current forerunner, Mab. So the second  focus of this post will be why Rashid is a more likely Culprit than the Queen of Air and Darkness.
There are five things needed of whoever fixed Little Chicago. In order of difficulty, they are:

1. Whoever did it waited until Bob was out of Harry's place before they did anything. So they had to know about Bob.
2. Whoever did it had to have known that Little Chicago existed and had a fatal flaw.
3. Whoever did it had to understand the magic involved well enough to fix the problem.
4. Whoever did it had to be able to work enough magic inside Harry's house to be able to fix the problem.
5. Whoever did it had to have a way to get into Harry's lab past his wards to fix it.

Let's tackle the points from easiest to hardest. As the topic is rather long, I've separated each one into its own spoiler box.

The Culprit's Point of Entry
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The Culprit's Power Level
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The Culprit's Skill Level
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The Culprit's Knowledge of LC
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The Culprit's Knowledge of Bob
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Other considerations (Mab & and the murk)
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Of the classic investigative triangle, the previous points focus on means and opportunity. In conclusion, I would like to take a look at the final piece of the puzzle: motive. Cold Days is interesting, because in it we learn that Mab was not preparing Molly to become the Winter Lady, but rather thought she would make a better Summer Lady. However, I don't think that the events of Cold Days were completely unexpected. I propose that Rashid's whole purpose in setting Harry up to save Molly was specifically so that she would be there when the time came, and she would become the next Winter Lady. It is as he said to Harry in Cold Days: Harry was the cavalry, come to save the whole debacle initated by Maeve's possession and Harry setting Summer's fire into Winter's Wellspring.

So, with better means, a clearer motive, and ample opportunity, I humbly propose that Wizard Rashid, the Gatekeeper, was the one who fixed Little Chicago as one of the first pebbles that would end with the avalanche of Margaret Katherine Amanda "Molly" Carpenter as Winter Lady. Apologies for any typos or errors I missed, and I would certainly love to hear everyone's thoughts and feedback.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 10:33:36 PM
well first its explicit that thomas was home, not that he saw anything or remembers seeing it. second its rather more complex of a spell than any of those on your list. not saying he couldn't have done it but threshold+ knowing LC existed+ knowing how it worked and finally knowing it was messed up in the first place makes it unlikely. if forsight is the only thing rashid has that puts him on the list one could argue it was odin keeping an eye on his next 'apprentice' as he obviously has had his eye on harry awhile.
my main problem with it being any forsight or anything but a possible Novikov self-consistency principle time warp is any forsight gained would be in direct response to learning harry popped his head, meaning it 1000 times more likely to happen again (per odins explanation) so forsight being a factor is really iffy. how would they gain the required knowledge on LC without contaminating the timeline?
wanted to add, odin as kringle knows of all human deeds and misdeeds so its possible he knew abot it
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Elegast on February 11, 2013, 11:44:58 PM
I was recently looking at Elegast's theory index (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35806.0.html) and was surprised to notice that the Gatekeeper is no longer up as a suspect for fixing Little Chicago. This surprised me, as I seem to recall that he was the original suspect.

I'm sure many theories are missing. Added the Gatekeeper.

I'll make a longer answer to our OP when I'll have the time.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Cenphx on February 11, 2013, 11:54:11 PM
First, let me just say, big kudos to you for laying this all out so clearly. I know it takes a buttload of work and is really difficult, so give yourself a pat on the back. Reading your post and then rereading, I have a couple of probably minor questions for you.

1) Regarding your point that Rashid made sure to come inside to fix LC when Bob wasn't around, how could he know that Bob wouldn't be there? As noted in Serack's post, Harry rarely took Bob on investigations and Bob's role at the convention that night was pretty minimal. So it would be hard to know that Harry would take Bob with him. Unless Rashid saw that too with his foresight, but I guess I don't imagine it giving the wielder that kind of small detail (like what Harry is carrying in his backpack when he leaves his apartment). But I guess I could be wrong about that.

2) When Rashid sees something with his foresight that he wants to change, we have seen his actions be as minimally intrusive as possible, the bare minimum he could get away with and still be effective. I'm thinking of his very vague direction to Harry about "black magic is afoot" rather than "go stop Molly Carpenter from using mind magic against her friends and being abducted by Winter" (or something equally clear but meeting his goals--maybe he wanted Molly abducted.) So why would Rashid act directly here rather than just sending Harry another vague message like "you might want to double-check all your magical items before you use them"? It seems out of character.

3) Why would Rashid keep his actions a secret from Harry? If it was okay for him to direclty intervene, what difference would it make if Harry knew? 
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 12, 2013, 12:31:04 AM
Serack did an excellent analysis a few years ago that was the basis for many ideas about the gatekeeper being the culprit; it should be in reference someplace.

I still hold Mab as suspect number one though; some of the comments in CD:

- she knows what Harrys apartment looks like
- she knew about bob all along
- sidhe can walk thru thresholds

all seem to me to be less cluebats and more of " good grief, haven't you all solved this one by now?" On Jim's part
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ben de Wal on February 12, 2013, 01:22:41 AM
Serack did an excellent analysis a few years ago that was the basis for many ideas about the gatekeeper being the culprit; it should be in reference someplace.

I still hold Mab as suspect number one though; some of the comments in CD:

- she knows what Harrys apartment looks like
- she knew about bob all along
- sidhe can walk thru thresholds

all seem to me to be less cluebats and more of " good grief, haven't you all solved this one by now?" On Jim's part
agreed i figure mab wanted harry to find molly  ;)
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Tarion on February 12, 2013, 01:29:01 AM
Personally, I'm a strong proponent of Ebenezer, given that we know he knows how to get into Harry's basement, that he can break the Laws of Magic (and thus frolic against the currents of time to his heart's content), was in Chicago at the time and had an interest in protecting Harry.  I'll try to put up a thread with all of the evidence for the Index later. 
 
I still think Mab's a better fit, overall. 
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 01:24:37 PM
well first its explicit that thomas was home, not that he saw anything or remembers seeing it.

It's also explicit that Thomas was utterly freaked out. He had a shotgun waiting when Harry was opening the door. Keep in mind, this is after Dead Beat, so Thomas knows about the wards, and knows exactly what they can do.

For him to be worried means that he no longer trusts the wards, which means that something made him not trust them. The alternatives are someone getting inside the house without activating the wards, or some sort of spell getting to him through the wards.

second its rather more complex of a spell than any of those on your list.

I'm not certain I would agree that the Loup Garou circle was a simple magical construct, really. But in any case, let's up the complexity then.
- Luccio figured out what the Dark Hallow was going to do (kill a bunch of people) before Harry even got halfway through the explanation of what the Dark Hallow was.
- It took Bob almost no time at all to figure out the mechanics of the Bloodline Curse once he was at Chicken Pizza. He could even give Harry all sorts of little details about it.

So even with a once-in-a-millenium sort of spell (or a whole school of magic you've only ever seen used from the outside and never used yourself), figuring it out is not all that difficult for one of the wise.

not saying he couldn't have done it but threshold+ knowing LC existed+ knowing how it worked and finally knowing it was messed up in the first place makes it unlikely.


That doesn't just make it unlikely for the Gatekeeper, though. That plain makes it unlikely for everyone! Even for Mab, really. I find it hard to believe that she would spend the time looking into Harry's house that Lea did (she's kinda busy running an empire at war, you know?), so the idea that she discovered the existence of the flaw while Bob and Harry were working on LC is ludicrous to me (plus, it's one thing to watch someone while they sleep, another to watch an active wizard when he's wizarding and not be noticed by his supernatural senses).

But we know it happened; someone did fix Little Chicago, so the question becomes, who is the most likely to overcome that list of hurdles? And I still say the Gatekeeper has better means and opportunity than Mab does.

if forsight is the only thing rashid has that puts him on the list one could argue it was odin keeping an eye on his next 'apprentice' as he obviously has had his eye on harry awhile.

[...]

wanted to add, odin as kringle knows of all human deeds and misdeeds so its possible he knew abot it

It's not just foresight, it's interest. The Gatekeeper made sure to involve himself in the situation from the very first moment, and Odin, to put it simply, didn't show a whisker. At the same time, from the Doylist perspective, for Odin to be involved, the author must have made some mention of it. Like, say, the scene where The protagonist and his talking head sit down and discuss Rashid's motivation in getting involved in the case. That's not a clue bat, that's a freaking neon sign.

my main problem with it being any forsight or anything but a possible Novikov self-consistency principle time warp is any forsight gained would be in direct response to learning harry popped his head, meaning it 1000 times more likely to happen again (per odins explanation) so forsight being a factor is really iffy. how would they gain the required knowledge on LC without contaminating the timeline?

I'm afraid that the Novikov self-consistency principle has been proven in the book to not apply to prophecy / foresight. Examples include:

- The prophecy in Death Masks only included two alternatives: Harry dies, or the Knights all die. Neither of these happens.

- Abby replied to a question before he got a chance to make it, and her reply stopped him from making it. Meaning, the timeline where he asked the question never happened in the first place.

- The Gatekeeper used some sort of ability to determine Harry's chances near the end of Turn Coat. This ability gave two different results. If the ability is foresight / time-based (as the dialogue in that scene implies) then it saw two different futures.

Currently my internet at home is down. Will reply to the others during my lunch break.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 12, 2013, 02:10:35 PM
umm thomas was also groggy and grabbing his face like he just had a bad dream. givin the very similar nature of WC demon and half reds i'd say its possible to intrance either.
        its actually far more likely for mab to know as acting godmother, i think your forgetting rashid was unsure of harry till atl TC. mab was in better position and with more power and incentive.
Quote
At the same time, from the Doylist perspective, for Odin to be involved, the author must have made some mention of it.
like its totally mentioned that the FBI headquarters links up with erlking in FM? oh wait... its a mystery so laying everything on the table and making it obvious is kinda lame.
Quote
I'm afraid that the Novikov self-consistency principle has been proven in the book to not apply to prophecy / foresight.
not sure what telling you past self harry popped his head has to do with novikov?point was if GK got his knowledge from forsight then it would have been WAY too much, list-LC exists, it has flaw
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 12, 2013, 02:35:00 PM
(continuation) and harry popped his head. now if harry already popped his head then GK can't change this. if rashid only(name another way he'd know?) knows from forsight he cant change this per odin as it already happened and he learned it ATF. as someone else pointed our GK  doesn't screw around like that with time, pretty sure thats directly against the 'current' to even attempt the impossible of changing the past.
 :o
not entirely sure how to respond to alot of what you said because(and maybe we're just on two totally different wavelengths) i don't understand its relevance? it does seem to me your twisting facts to suit theory instead of theory to fit facts, a holmesian no, no btw.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 12, 2013, 02:41:09 PM
Quote
- Abby replied to a question before he got a chance to make it, and her reply stopped him from making it. Meaning, the timeline where he asked the question never happened in the first place.
i really should sleep before trying to explain things but.... this isn't changing the past. abby sees possibilities and uhhh argh!
just go watch that nicholas cage movie knowing (or know?) it has everything you need to figure it out yourself.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 05:44:30 PM
First, let me just say, big kudos to you for laying this all out so clearly. I know it takes a buttload of work and is really difficult, so give yourself a pat on the back. Reading your post and then rereading, I have a couple of probably minor questions for you.

1) Regarding your point that Rashid made sure to come inside to fix LC when Bob wasn't around, how could he know that Bob wouldn't be there? As noted in Serack's post, Harry rarely took Bob on investigations and Bob's role at the convention that night was pretty minimal. So it would be hard to know that Harry would take Bob with him. Unless Rashid saw that too with his foresight, but I guess I don't imagine it giving the wielder that kind of small detail (like what Harry is carrying in his backpack when he leaves his apartment). But I guess I could be wrong about that.

2) When Rashid sees something with his foresight that he wants to change, we have seen his actions be as minimally intrusive as possible, the bare minimum he could get away with and still be effective. I'm thinking of his very vague direction to Harry about "black magic is afoot" rather than "go stop Molly Carpenter from using mind magic against her friends and being abducted by Winter" (or something equally clear but meeting his goals--maybe he wanted Molly abducted.) So why would Rashid act directly here rather than just sending Harry another vague message like "you might want to double-check all your magical items before you use them"? It seems out of character.

3) Why would Rashid keep his actions a secret from Harry? If it was okay for him to direclty intervene, what difference would it make if Harry knew?

Thank you for the kudos!

Let me begin by commenting on something you said on your second question, which took me somewhat by surprised. In it you expressed that the Gatekeeper's actions tend to be the bare minimum that'll be effective. I find myself disagreeing with this view. We've seen the Gatekeeper act in 4 books (Summer Knight, Proven Guilty, Turn Coat, Cold Days). The only time where he held back from acting directly was in Proven Guilty, in my opinion. Every other time, he seems to do as much as his duties (and limitations) allow.

In Summer Knight, he tracked Harry throughtout the whole test, and then gave Harry a bunch of tools that helped him handle the upcoming fight, in fact risking Harry's life by doing so (since it could be argued that he interfered with Harry's test). I would guess that the reason he didn't go with Harry to the war is that with the Fae Queens and Ladies in Chicago-over-Chicago, the Wall was understaffed and he was needed there.

In Turn Coat, Rashid went and confronted Harry directly as soon as he knew what Harry was up to, and had quite the honest talk with him. There's no way for Rashid to have been part of the arresting party, however: he couldn't step foot on the island, so he wouldn't have been able to help with the ambush. Even then, he made sure to send a message to help diminish the amount of deaths in the ensuing fight.

In Ghost Story, we finally find what exactly keeps Rashid busy so much of the time that he can't help Harry more. Even then, Rashid promises to help Harry as much as he can, though he admits that with his duties, it amounts to getting Harry re-instated in the Council.

When it comes to Rashid, I'm usually reminded of that scene in Blood Rites where Lord Raith first mind-whammies Murphy. Harry learns the painful lesson that even with phenomenal power, sometimes the best one can do is... nothing at all.

With regards to your questions, I actually think they all tie together. Read again Bob example of how a message from the future is generally meant to change something else, rather than whatever gets mentioned (in the example, the car theft gets mentioned, when the intention is to avoid a murder instead).

If we look at the chain of events, without Rashid's message vs. with Rashid's message, Harry still would have received Molly's call, but I believe it is only Rashid's warning that makes Harry worried enough about Splattercon!!! that he's willing to risk taking Bob with him to investigate. So by giving a mysterious message rather than a clear one, Rashid accomplishes his mission of creating a window of opportunity to fix LC, and since he's a hands-on kind of guy, he goes and fixes it himself.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: aShorty21 on February 12, 2013, 08:47:35 PM
Are we ignoring the Time Traveling Harry as an option? That has always been my favorite. If I get time in the near future I'll do my best to explain how I think TTHarry fits all the OP scenarios the most.

An aside: Any being that is good enough to get into the sub-basement from the NN is good enough to fix LC without Thomas even knowing they were there. So Thomas would not have to know about about the fixer in that instance.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 09:07:38 PM
Are we ignoring the Time Traveling Harry as an option? That has always been my favorite. If I get time in the near future I'll do my best to explain how I think TTHarry fits all the OP scenarios the most.

An aside: Any being that is good enough to get into the sub-basement from the NN is good enough to fix LC without Thomas even knowing they were there. So Thomas would not have to know about about the fixer in that instance.

We've got 2 threads talking about TTH right now, so I decided to leave this one alone.  I didn't want to de-rail the discussion of the GK theory with another theory.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: aShorty21 on February 12, 2013, 09:19:47 PM
We've got 2 threads talking about TTH right now, so I decided to leave this one alone.  I didn't want to de-rail the discussion of the GK theory with another theory.

Gotcha, so TTHarry being a posiblity isn't a reason to discount The Gatekeeper as one.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 12, 2013, 09:23:29 PM
Gotcha, so TTHarry being a posiblity isn't a reason to discount The Gatekeeper as one.

each possibility needs to be evaluated on its own merits and problems. just disproving one does not automatically prove another.

the fun thing about Rashid is the more I think about it, the more plausible it becomes. What if all the hints Jim has dropped in the last three books about 'Mab fixed it' are just red herrings?
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 09:32:23 PM
Serack did an excellent analysis a few years ago that was the basis for many ideas about the gatekeeper being the culprit; it should be in reference someplace.

I know! But I couldn't find it. And since Elegast's theory index does encourage linking to a source, and we now know more about Rashid's mindset, I figured, may as well make an updated one. Of course, anyone with better search-fu than my own (which I admit is severely lacking) is welcome to provide links to Serack's excellent work.

I still hold Mab as suspect number one though; some of the comments in CD:

- she knows what Harrys apartment looks like
- she knew about bob all along
- sidhe can walk thru thresholds

all seem to me to be less cluebats and more of " good grief, haven't you all solved this one by now?" On Jim's part

There are two big issues to Mab being the culprit, and a few little ones. The big ones, of course, is that she doesn't seem able to see the future (demonstrated, in my mind, by her failure to see Lily's future at the end of Cold Days) and the fact that so long as she was defending Harry as Lea's proxy, she was limited to act only as far as Lea could. So unless Mab cheated somehow, she could only fix LC as well as Lea could, rather than as well as she herself could.

each possibility needs to be evaluated on its own merits and problems. just disproving one does not automatically prove another.

the fun thing about Rashid is the more I think about it, the more plausible it becomes. What if all the hints Jim has dropped in the last three books about 'Mab fixed it' are just red herrings?

Seeing as we now know exactly how close in purpose the Gatekeeper and Mab are, I can't help but wonder if maybe they actually worked together. Certainly the two of them working together could easily explain all aspects of this. I can't quite picture the chain of events for that, though...
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 12, 2013, 09:39:44 PM
I know! But I couldn't find it. And since Elegast's theory index does encourage linking to a source, and we now know more about Rashid's mindset, I figured, may as well make an updated one. Of course, anyone with better search-fu than my own (which I admit is severely lacking) is welcome to provide links to Serack's excellent work.

There are two big issues to Mab being the culprit, and a few little ones. The big ones, of course, is that she doesn't seem able to see the future (demonstrated, in my mind, by her failure to see Lily's future at the end of Cold Days) and the fact that so long as she was defending Harry as Lea's proxy, she was limited to act only as far as Lea could. So unless Mab cheated somehow, she could only fix LC as well as Lea could, rather than as well as she herself could.

Seeing as we now know exactly how close in purpose the Gatekeeper and Mab are, I can't help but wonder if maybe they actually worked together. Certainly the two of them working together could easily explain all aspects of this. I can't quite picture the chain of events for that, though...

not to derail, but both of those have been answered:

seeing in the future is not a static future, but a potential future; what she sees are what may happen. As to if she can, even Harry (in CD ) says she does, hes just not sure how far or how well.

second is answered in text as well, in DB: she says she is required to do what lea would have done, but she is not limited to it. For example, lea knows little about the word of Kemmler, but Mab does, and she told harry things Lea does not know because she decided to.

 ;)

I rate WAGs based on how many serious objections there are; right now there are none for Mab that I am aware of, Jim nailed down the last loose boards in CD.

Rashid has very few if any, the only big one being why?

all the other theories have several serious objections or more.

 ;)
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 09:54:08 PM
This is a reply to wizard nelson's three replies which were written one after the other. They are inside the spoiler as a reference. These posts, in summary, discuss four points:

1. Thomas was groggy and grabbing his face like he had a bad dream when Harry came in.
2. Mab, as acting Godmother, can know about Little Chicago's flaw without needing to see into the future.
3. In a multi-book series, it is possible to provide the clue explaining a mystery in a book that takes place after the one where the mystery takes place.
4. If Rashid knows something from foresight, then temporal inertia means that Rashid will have a hard time stopping it from taking place.

My replies in order.
1. I don't think we're looking at the same part of PG. The part I'm talking about is when Harry goes back to his place and Thomas shoves the shotgun in his face. This is followed by Thomas moving out. There's no mention of Thomas being groggy.
2. Agreed. But if that's the case, what was Mab planning to do to stop Harry from blowing his head off before Molly's phone call? It makes more sense that whoever fixed LC knew that Harry would not get a chance to use it until just before the Arctis Tor raid, and that sort of knowledge still requires foresight.
3. Agreed. But when the book with the mystery includes a discussion about how sending a message to the past works, and solving the mystery seems to require sending a message to the past, I kinda have to go with Occam's razor and assume the two are related.

4. Let me see if I understand what you said here:

During the stolen car example in PG, Bob stated that if foresight shows the car being stolen, one can change the future, but the "stolen car" aspect of it will remain the same. From that you concluded that whatever was seen of the future couldn't have been "Harry's head explodes using LC", because that would fix the future, and changing it would be a paradox. Which of course, just means that whatever was seen of the future only suggested that LC was broken, rather than being something that outright showed Harry's head exploding, for example.

Please let me know if I understood your point correctly, and then I'll work on a more suitable reply. I must admit, it's actually a really good idea!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 10:16:15 PM
This is a reply to wizard nelson's three replies which were written one after the other. They are inside the spoiler as a reference. These posts, in summary, discuss four points:

1. Thomas was groggy and grabbing his face like he had a bad dream when Harry came in.
2. Mab, as acting Godmother, can know about Little Chicago's flaw without needing to see into the future.
3. In a multi-book series, it is possible to provide the clue explaining a mystery in a book that takes place after the one where the mystery takes place.
4. If Rashid knows something from foresight, then temporal inertia means that Rashid will have a hard time stopping it from taking place.

My replies in order.
1. I don't think we're looking at the same part of PG. The part I'm talking about is when Harry goes back to his place and Thomas shoves the shotgun in his face. This is followed by Thomas moving out. There's no mention of Thomas being groggy.
2. Agreed. But if that's the case, what was Mab planning to do to stop Harry from blowing his head off before Molly's phone call? It makes more sense that whoever fixed LC knew that Harry would not get a chance to use it until just before the Arctis Tor raid, and that sort of knowledge still requires foresight.
3. Agreed. But when the book with the mystery includes a discussion about how sending a message to the past works, and solving the mystery seems to require sending a message to the past, I kinda have to go with Occam's razor and assume the two are related.

4. Let me see if I understand what you said here:

During the stolen car example in PG, Bob stated that if foresight shows the car being stolen, one can change the future, but the "stolen car" aspect of it will remain the same. From that you concluded that whatever was seen of the future couldn't have been "Harry's head explodes using LC", because that would fix the future, and changing it would be a paradox. Which of course, just means that whatever was seen of the future only suggested that LC was broken, rather than being something that outright showed Harry's head exploding, for example.

Please let me know if I understood your point correctly, and then I'll work on a more suitable reply. I must admit, it's actually a really good idea!

(click to show/hide)

Ugh, I hate supporting the Mab-Did-It theory, just out of boredom.  But...
2) If Mab saw with her purported precog ability that it was highly likely Harry would be going home to use LilC, she could have sent Maeve out to delay him.  Thus Maeve would have been driving the car that hit Harry.  Likewise, similar to my TTH point that maybe TTH plugged the phone back in so Harry wouldn't miss Molly's call, Maeve could have done the same  by crossing the threshold veiled, and plugged it back in.  It doesn't say in the book that he unplugged it, but it's a point that he would have normally, and must have been to groggy in the head to remember.  The thin part is that Mab nor Maeve should have been able to see enough of the future to be sure that Molly would call Harry prior to his using LilC that night.

TTH side note:  How ironic (read: foreshadowing) would it be if Bob gave the 'stole a car' example about time-travel, and then Harry ended up time-traveling back to PG and had to steal that old chrysler to hit himself to make sure he didn't use LilC pre-maturely?
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 12, 2013, 10:29:54 PM
Im not sure precog is even required for fixing LC in pG; its juts simple deduction on her part. She knows she needs get Molly to AT and back in such a way that nemesis does not suspect the plan; ergo, harry needs to rescue her.

therefore, harry needs a way to track molly.. better make sure LC is up and working beforehand
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Cenphx on February 12, 2013, 10:32:58 PM

4. Let me see if I understand what you said here:

During the stolen car example in PG, Bob stated that if foresight shows the car being stolen, one can change the future, but the "stolen car" aspect of it will remain the same. From that you concluded that whatever was seen of the future couldn't have been "Harry's head explodes using LC", because that would fix the future, and changing it would be a paradox. Which of course, just means that whatever was seen of the future only suggested that LC was broken, rather than being something that outright showed Harry's head exploding, for example.

Please let me know if I understood your point correctly, and then I'll work on a more suitable reply. I must admit, it's actually a really good idea!

(click to show/hide)
Wait, isn't this the same time travel paradox we dealt with in the other thread? Frickin time travel.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 10:53:36 PM
Im not sure precog is even required for fixing LC in pG; its juts simple deduction on her part. She knows she needs get Molly to AT and back in such a way that nemesis does not suspect the plan; ergo, harry needs to rescue her.

therefore, harry needs a way to track molly.. better make sure LC is up and working beforehand

It all just seems so convoluted for the result.  Lea bargains with the Reds to not interfere in their war; Lea gets Infected; Mab has to cure Lea, but has to fulfill Lea's promises while she's incapacitated, so she can't act out against the Reds; so she has Molly learn dark magic, to screw with her friend's minds, so the GK detects dark magic, and out of courtesy tells Harry, so Harry has to go looking for the dark magic, so that Maeve can manipulate him into thinking its a heavy duty practitioner summoning phages, so he has to send it back on them, only to have it be Fetches, who can take Molly to Arctis Tor because Harry sent them to her, so Harry will follow them to AT to retrieve her, so that Lily can give him summer fire to fire into the wellspring, to then cause a natural reaction among winter Fae to draw everyone back to home base, allowing Maeve to slow time, keeping Winter near Arctic Tor long enough to allow Summer to then move against the Reds.

Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 12, 2013, 10:56:19 PM
It all just seems so convoluted for the result.  Lea bargains with the Reds to not interfere in their war; Lea gets Infected; Mab has to cure Lea, but has to fulfill Lea's promises while she's incapacitated, so she can't act out against the Reds; so she has Molly learn dark magic, to screw with her friend's minds, so the GK detects dark magic, and out of courtesy tells Harry, so Harry has to go looking for the dark magic, so that Maeve can manipulate him into thinking its a heavy duty practitioner summoning phages, so he has to send it back on them, only to have it be Fetches, who can take Molly to Arctis Tor because Harry sent them to her, so Harry will follow them to AT to retrieve her, so that Lily can give him summer fire to fire into the wellspring, to then cause a natural reaction among winter Fae to draw everyone back to home base, allowing Maeve to slow time, keeping Winter near Arctic Tor long enough to allow Summer to then move against the Reds.

that's not the result. the result is :

Harry becomes warden of DR
Mab lays a trap for her enemies
kills many of their agents lose on earth
makes Molly new winter lady

you are mistaking the first two moves for the endgame. When Mab plays chess, she plays fricken chess.  ;D
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Cenphx on February 12, 2013, 11:00:46 PM
It all just seems so convoluted for the result.  Lea bargains with the Reds to not interfere in their war; Lea gets Infected; Mab has to cure Lea, but has to fulfill Lea's promises while she's incapacitated, so she can't act out against the Reds; so she has Molly learn dark magic, to screw with her friend's minds, so the GK detects dark magic, and out of courtesy tells Harry, so Harry has to go looking for the dark magic, so that Maeve can manipulate him into thinking its a heavy duty practitioner summoning phages, so he has to send it back on them, only to have it be Fetches, who can take Molly to Arctis Tor because Harry sent them to her, so Harry will follow them to AT to retrieve her, so that Lily can give him summer fire to fire into the wellspring, to then cause a natural reaction among winter Fae to draw everyone back to home base, allowing Maeve to slow time, keeping Winter near Arctic Tor long enough to allow Summer to then move against the Reds.
Aren't all the theories on PG and SmF complicated like this though? They ALL seem to involve 11 dimensional chess.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 11:02:30 PM
that's not the result. the result is :

Harry becomes warden of DR
Mab lays a trap for her enemies
kills many of their agents lose on earth
makes Molly new winter lady

you are mistaking the first two moves for the endgame. When Mab plays chess, she plays fricken chess.  ;D

 - I don't see PG leading to Harry becoming Warden of DR.  That's more along the lines of your TC theory.
 - I don't know what trap Mab laid for her enemies in PG.  They came after Lea, and caused havok at AT, but she still doesn't seem sure which Fallen was involved, so I'm not sure how much intel she got from it.
 - She didn't kill any agents on earth in PG.  Unless you're talking about any that fell in the attack at AT.  But we don't know if the bad guys took any casualties.  The only remains spotted were those of Winter creatures.
 - It lays the foundation for a connection between Molly and Winter.  But Molly was apparently always a backup backup.  That seems like a lot of effort for a second pinch hitter.  If Mab knew of Maeve's infection in PG, then I can see her deciding a new backup may be needed.  But it doesn't explain why she didn't do to Maeve what she did to Lea.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 12, 2013, 11:07:12 PM
- I don't see PG leading to Harry becoming Warden of DR.  That's more along the lines of your TC theory.
 - I don't know what trap Mab laid for her enemies in PG.  They came after Lea, and caused havok at AT, but she still doesn't seem sure which Fallen was involved, so I'm not sure how much intel she got from it.
 - She didn't kill any agents on earth in PG.  Unless you're talking about any that fell in the attack at AT.  But we don't know if the bad guys took any casualties.  The only remains spotted were those of Winter creatures.
 - It lays the foundation for a connection between Molly and Winter.  But Molly was apparently always a backup backup.  That seems like a lot of effort for a second pinch hitter.  If Mab knew of Maeve's infection in PG, then I can see her deciding a new backup may be needed.  But it doesn't explain why she didn't do to Maeve what she did to Lea.

the PG theory and the TC theory, im my opinion, are all one thing. Its A+ B +C= type stuff, anditkinda paid outinCDlikemadmuttermutter

the trap is the one she sprang in CD, end of.

where she took a trap they laid for her and inverted it to pin her enemies between a rock (DR) and a hard place ( Odin and the Erlking)

 ;D
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 12, 2013, 11:58:38 PM
@wyltok
1 ummm...... damn! uhh... yea your right. i looked thinking to find the quote, now why did i think that? Mmmm...
2 yea but not necessarily the i see the future kind. like duck i opt for the "I am mab! i've thought of everything fool!" answer along the lines of sun tzu kinda gathered intelligence. mabs just good like that, its her job.
3 i assume that was so you'd understand rashids msg and how it worked? rashid knowing to hit harry to divert him is a little iffy though. how can you get that msg across in a vague way(as i believe future GK MUST be to not screw with the timeline). i mean "harry gets into a car wreck at precisely 2:45" is too informativ. i suppose rashid steal  a car to tail harry and keep on the lookout and was driving it when future rashid sends back a description of the same car he's driving. viola 2+2=4 rashid realises he must hit harry because he's driving the car that does it. yes i know i'm supporting your idea now  :P  and my ps3 will cut this off soon so 4 willbenextpost
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 12:08:23 AM
Quote
TTH side note:  How ironic (read: foreshadowing) would it be if Bob gave the 'stole a car' example about time-travel, and then Harry ended up time-traveling back to PG and had to steal that old chrysler to hit himself to make sure he didn't use LilC pre-maturely?
THAT is great butcher forshadowing. it jives right with me.

4  kinda yea. the only event in the future that would give rashid all the pertainent info needed would be harry dying. i don't see any other reason rashid could know about LC, or that it had a fatal flaw in the future except this event. thats really meddling in time there.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 05:07:20 AM
not to retcon on things but it seems to me altering time requires the mortal touch of free will. just as in DB changing harry's fate was an act of free will in the face of predestination. so a god to facilitate the working and a mortal to carry out the actions. dude look at it this way. time manipulation is odin/kringles forte and harry owes him a favor. this sets up the presumed time travel jim says will probably happen. IF on the other hand the time thing refers to harry doing kringles job one snowy christmas eve and stretching time to visit every kid in the world, i'd be cool with that too  ;)
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 05:13:39 AM
not to retcon on things but it seems to me altering time requires the mortal touch of free will. just as in DB changing harry's fate was an act of free will in the face of predestination. so a god to facilitate the working and a mortal to carry out the actions. dude look at it this way. time manipulation is odin/kringles forte and harry owes him a favor. this sets up the presumed time travel jim says will probably happen. IF on the other hand the time thing refers to harry doing kringles job one snowy christmas eve and stretching time to visit every kid in the world, i'd be cool with that too  ;)

ever read Hogfather ? youd like it.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 05:19:35 AM
ever read Hogfather ? youd like it.
no but, i'll add it to the list of things to look for on my next library trip.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 13, 2013, 01:33:44 PM
not to derail, but both of those have been answered:

seeing in the future is not a static future, but a potential future; what she sees are what may happen. As to if she can, even Harry (in CD ) says she does, hes just not sure how far or how well.

Actually, what Harry said in Cold Days (after going through the star light circle) is that Mab can either see the future, or prepares for every eventuality. To put it simply, chess players can't see the future, they plan for it instead. Mab is a superb chess player. Look at the scenario at the end of Cold Days. She certainly didn't see Maeve's move coming, but she still had a backup in case anything happened to Sarissa. Similarly, she didn't see Harry's threat coming afterward.

Am I missing something that proves that she can see the future(s) instead of merely being a chess player?

second is answered in text as well, in DB: she says she is required to do what lea would have done, but she is not limited to it. For example, lea knows little about the word of Kemmler, but Mab does, and she told harry things Lea does not know because she decided to.

Actually, Dead Beat is the eminent example of Mab only going as far as Lea's knowledge instead of her own when it comes to fulfilling Harry's obligations. She even made a point of rubbing the rule in Harry's face and proceeded to offer him the Knighthood (again) as the price for the knowledge.

On the other hand (here I go shooting myself in the foot again), the conversation between Harry and Lea at his grave about Corpsetaker in GS is a good example of Lea being more than fair to Harry in answering his questions than what the deal strictly required. So it's a problem, but a workable problem, it seems.

Editted because I forgot to to reply to this part:

not to derail, but both of those have been answered:
I rate WAGs based on how many serious objections there are; right now there are none for Mab that I am aware of, Jim nailed down the last loose boards in CD.

Rashid has very few if any, the only big one being why?

I actually think the reply lies in what you wrote in one of your latter posts, specifically the part I bolded.

that's not the result. the result is :

Harry becomes warden of DR
Mab lays a trap for her enemies
kills many of their agents lose on earth
makes Molly new winter lady

you are mistaking the first two moves for the endgame. When Mab plays chess, she plays fricken chess.  ;D

Mab outright tells us that she didn't plan for Molly to succeed Maeve as Winter Lady; she was just an understudy for whichever Lady spot became available first (in Mab's mind). I propose that the person who saw what was coming and planned for it was the Gatekeeper instead. That's why he told Harry that all would work out if he was just himself.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 03:06:37 PM
point one: Dead Beat

after he refuses to take the WK job, Mab still helps him anyway. PG 180. Hard back

"I must do what I might to preserve your life. Know this, Mortal: should Kemmler's heirs acquire the knowledge bound within the word.."

and she does one of her prophecy moments the next page away :

"one day you shall kneel at my feet."

these are kind of important, because Mab cannot lie. If she uses future tense like that, it means its something she has foreseen. and there a bunch of them.

(I have a standing WAG that after the series is over, a reader will be able to go thru the books and check off everything Mab said.. its very Jim, somehow.)

in CD, Harry doesn't question if Mab can see the future, but how far

"could Mab see that far ahead? or was this simply a case of superior preparedness in action? "

as to the things Mab said in CD at the end, she deliberately used squishy language. She has gotten very good at letting Harry assume what he wants to hear. ;)

the one thing (and maybe its just egotism) that make me think Mab is the more likely is the logic chain. Using it, back in 2006, I predicted the end of Cold Days with some accuracy. I also predicted that Harry would die, that Mab would brign him back, that it would involve demon reach..

Now I got the details wrong. Time Travel wasn't directly involved, but indirectly thru Mab's precognition; and the attacking force was the outsiders, not the black court.

but it was close enough that even though I had left the board, people started emailing me to say things like 'OMG DUCK !!'

so it must have been somewhat on the ball... lol.

or just very very very lucky.




Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 13, 2013, 03:31:57 PM
As with last time, wizard nelson's posts are in the spoiler box. A quick summary:
1. Mab doesn't need foresight in order to stop Harry from blowing his head off. She can just keep him busy long enough that he won't use it before she gets a chance to fix it.
2. What message could Rashid possibly get from the future that would lead to the chain of events in the book (sending Harry after Molly with Bob while sending someone to Harry's house at the same time to find and fix the flaw in LC) without revealing and therefore fixing a bad future as unfixable?

My replies:
1. The problem I have with a non-foresight equipped Mab fixing Little Chicago is the level of baby-sitting involved in stopping Harry from using it before the fix. At the very least, it involves:
- Sending someone to run him over so that he'll get home later
- Orchestrating the attack on Pell so that boyfriend Nelson will be arrested in time for Molly to have to call Harry to bail him out
- Reconnecting Harry's phone
- Not kidnapping Molly until LC has been fixed

However, someone with access to future knowledge knows that all of the above will happen already, so they don't need to do it themselves. After all, the consensus here is that the Chrysler attack was done by Ace, and the phone call in the middle of the ritual, I would argue, if it's not a coincidence, is courtesy of angelic coincidental intervention (the same way Michael appears during the trial).

2. OK, first of all, a caveat: WoJ is that when Bob doesn't know an answer, he'll give a theoretical answer or just his best guess. Why is this important? Because during the events of PG, Bob didn't know about time travel and foresight. We've seen plenty of things, from the Oracle spirit in Death Masks to the discussion with Odin in Cold Days that propose that Bob highly overrates how paradox works.

But, if we assume that Bob is right, and that a message from the future must be a) true, and b) inevitable, and c) intended to change something that is not directly mentioned by the message itself, then it should be possible to imagine a Bad Future that would lead to a message that will help Rashid figure out what he needs to do here (think Heroes if you ever watched that show). You earlier accused me of twisting facts to fit the theory; I think I may just be doing that with the bit below.

So, elements of this bad future (located inside the Spoiler):
(click to show/hide)

The bad future I envision, basically, is one where Mab doesn't have a second option for Maeve's replacement hidden away, forcing her to keep Maeve alive. Molly is the ideal candidate for the job, and in order to keep her hidden, Harry has to live and take her on as his apprentice. On the other hand, if Harry ever finds out that his apprentice is destined to become Winter Lady, he'll do everything in his power to stop it from happening. So, with those constraints in mind, here's the message I would send, if I were future Rashid:

"A user of dark magic will gain Winter's Favor.  Fate and coincidence will stop Chicago's Warden from using the scrying tool he developed with Kemmler's familiar until X nights after the warlock's execution."

X is the number of days between the start of PG and when he actually uses LC (can't remember off the top of my head). It's a fairly subtle way of giving Rashid a deadline without telling him something bad, wouldn't you agree?

(The spoiler box below contains wizard nelson's posts I'm replying to).
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 13, 2013, 04:56:03 PM
point one: Dead Beat

after he refuses to take the WK job, Mab still helps him anyway. PG 180. Hard back

"I must do what I might to preserve your life. Know this, Mortal: should Kemmler's heirs acquire the knowledge bound within the word.."

Actually, if you read a little bit before that, you realize that even when Mab was replying strictly as Lea, she'd already revealed that Lea knew about the Word of Kemmler ("The Word of Kemmler. Has it been found?"). So that little tidbit is actually based on Lea's knowledge, not Mab's. The fact that she even says that she must do it makes it sound like she's doing it out of (Lea's) obligation rather than because she wants to or believes it will prove beneficial in the future (though of course, the beauty of motivations is that one can have more than one at a time).

Which makes sense; considering how similar the Erlking's ascension is with the Dark Hallow, and that it requires the Erlking in the first place, it doesn't surprise me that any Fae who was alive when Kemmler first attempted it heard all about it.

and she does one of her prophecy moments the next page away :

"one day you shall kneel at my feet."

these are kind of important, because Mab cannot lie. If she uses future tense like that, it means its something she has foreseen. and there a bunch of them.

(I have a standing WAG that after the series is over, a reader will be able to go thru the books and check off everything Mab said.. its very Jim, somehow.)

...Isn't this a classic example of those "squishy words" you abscribe to Mab? I mean, as it stands, we know she can physically move him however she wants. All she's saying here is that he will be in that physical pose, not that he'll accept the job; perfect Fae play on words. She can say such a thing because she firmly believes it to be true; we know from Ghost Story that she can say something that's wrong so long as she believes it to be true.

Ironically, both the spirt and the letter of the statement did happen, just on different books. Harry knelt at her feet during Small Favor, and Harry took the deal during Changes (no kneeling involved, though). But it doesn't change the fact that this was no prophecy, this was playing on words to put psychological pressure on Harry.

in CD, Harry doesn't question if Mab can see the future, but how far

"could Mab see that far ahead? or was this simply a case of superior preparedness in action? "

as to the things Mab said in CD at the end, she deliberately used squishy language. She has gotten very good at letting Harry assume what he wants to hear. ;)

Out of curiosity, where exactly is the squishyness in "It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve" and "I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place" if she had future knowledge of what was about to happen?

In any case, it's also worth pointing out that it wasn't Harry that said the Mab was surprised by Maeve's actions, it was Maeve herself who said it. I'm willing to say that after more than a few centuries, Maeve would know if Mab saw it coming or not.

the one thing (and maybe its just egotism) that make me think Mab is the more likely is the logic chain. Using it, back in 2006, I predicted the end of Cold Days with some accuracy. I also predicted that Harry would die, that Mab would brign him back, that it would involve demon reach..

Now I got the details wrong. Time Travel wasn't directly involved, but indirectly thru Mab's precognition; and the attacking force was the outsiders, not the black court.

but it was close enough that even though I had left the board, people started emailing me to say things like 'OMG DUCK !!'

so it must have been somewhat on the ball... lol.

or just very very very lucky.

Oh, my hat's off to you in recognition of your prior achievements, and I'm more than ready for it to happen again. Thing is, though, every angle I look at, it makes sense for Rashid to be much more involved in this book than what we actually saw, and LC is such a big source of involvement, that it makes it seem like he did it instead.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 06:26:59 PM
I think well have to disagree about DB, I read that differently, as I don't think Lea knew all the details about the word.

Quote
Out of curiosity, where exactly is the squishyness in "It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve" and "I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place" if she had future knowledge of what was about to happen?

'my intention' and 'I meant' can mean many different things.

and Just to be clear, the future in the DF is not absolute. its a potential state; what Mab sees are the things that may happen, not what will. Every time she makes a change, it distorts her vision a bit.

now realize that Nemesis has very similar powers, and the two of them are out to get each other, and things Like PG become clear. Its not one chess game, but hundreds, played at the same time, and the only way to win is to make a move the other side either misses or does not understand.

IMO, all of PG, SmF, and TC was Mab moving a pair of pawns ( Molly and Harry) into place to promote them later. And in order to get away with it, she did 20 other random moves all over the place :)

people come up with all these theories about 'why mab sent the hobbes' or 'why the fetches killed this person or that' when the easiest answer is ' because they are a distraction'

Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?



Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 06:35:43 PM
in reply to your point 1 your forgetting the WG got involved in PG too. michael even poses the question of maybe the point was to help harry the whole time. mab didn't do it alone the league of extraordinary godkin made a group effort to pull harry's fat outta the fire. mab doesn't need forsight. her mantle is the thing of cold ruthless logic. its a big chess computer capable of running innumerable calculations all at once
2 well.... you had to twist things to get out from under this one, i consider that a win on my point.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 06:50:40 PM
@ducky
did you catch the one in CD about mab saying
(click to show/hide)
stars and stones! that really doesn't bode well for mab when cometh the BAT.
Quote
Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?
omg so much better than that team jacob/edward bull.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 13, 2013, 07:18:08 PM
I think well have to disagree about DB, I read that differently, as I don't think Lea knew all the details about the word.

Neither did the Kemmlerites. It's not a particularly long leap of logic, however, to figure out that the information on the ritual that if the Kemmlerites are after the Word and the Erlking the night before Halloween, it's because they believe the Word has details on the Dark Hallow. I would say that's a leap of logic Lea could make. So yeah, agree to disagree on this one.

'my intention' and 'I meant' can mean many different things.

Such as?

and Just to be clear, the future in the DF is not absolute. its a potential state; what Mab sees are the things that may happen, not what will. Every time she makes a change, it distorts her vision a bit.

Boy, is that a debatable statement. Literally, in fact: you're taking part in a separate topic on that very statement right now (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36986.msg1789136.html#msg1789136). However, if that's the case, it's only true for Mab. Uriel and angels in general actually seem to fix the future by their actions (like, say, 7 words, or Uriel telling Harry "Consider Odin's words carefully" or however it went) rather than distorting it. Similarly, Odin seems to know exactly the impact his words will have on Harry and the future. Not sure why hers would work that way...

now realize that Nemesis has very similar powers, and the two of them are out to get each other, and things Like PG become clear. Its not one chess game, but hundreds, played at the same time, and the only way to win is to make a move the other side either misses or does not understand.

IMO, all of PG, SmF, and TC was Mab moving a pair of pawns ( Molly and Harry) into place to promote them later.

Why does it have to be Mab? Everyone in the know is playing chess against Nemesis (except maybe Mother Winter). Since Mab states that the end result wasn't what she intended, why couldn't it be another player's plan? Maybe a wizard who's job is specifically to fight against beings like Nemesis? So much so, in fact, that they call him by a title related to his fight with Nemesis' species?

And in order to get away with it, she did 20 other random moves all over the place :)

people come up with all these theories about 'why mab sent the hobbes' or 'why the fetches killed this person or that' when the easiest answer is ' because they are a distraction'

... That's not actually how a good chess player works. There are no random moves. There are, however, sacrifices that must be made in order to gain a better position to stop the enemy's plans.

Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?

Depends. What would the logo be?

in reply to your point 1 your forgetting the WG got involved in PG too. michael even poses the question of maybe the point was to help harry the whole time. mab didn't do it alone the league of extraordinary godkin made a group effort to pull harry's fat outta the fire. mab doesn't need forsight. her mantle is the thing of cold ruthless logic. its a big chess computer capable of running innumerable calculations all at once

Actually, I brought up the same point in my reply to you. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough. Here's the thing, though: there's only one way to know that the WG's team will get involved in keeping Harry safe. That is foresight. Unless, of course, one has faith. In which case, even if you don't know, you believe that he will intervene.

Harry had faith in the WG at the end of PG. Like you said, Mab is the Queen of cold logic and Quid Pro Quo. Do you really think there's space anywhere in her personality for faith? If she doesn't have faith, or foresight, how can she know when the WG is going to intervene to keep Harry safe?

She can't, meaning, she had to do everything herself. And frankly, that particular "everything" is a doozy.

2 well.... you had to twist things to get out from under this one, i consider that a win on my point.

Aww, man, that's not fair! You asked me to come up with a possible message from the future, and I did, and now you say that's cheating?! Damned, if I do, damned if I don't  :'( ::) ;D

On a more serious note, one can no longer say that it's impossible for Rashid to receive a message from the future with enough details to push him in the right direction, considering that I managed to come up with one. So I'm going to go ahead and consider it a win, too.

... Uhm, what was the point of me doing that again? I kinda forgot and just did it 'cause I thought it was a neat exercise.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 08:43:53 PM
I just want to address this point:

Quote
... That's not actually how a good chess player works. There are no random moves. There are, however, sacrifices that must be made in order to gain a better position to stop the enemy's plans.

because its a bit.. well, wrong :)

I am, or was, a very good chess player in my college days. Went to the state championship more then once.

Chess is full of what im talking about; the decoy, the cross check, the discovery.. the best games in the world come from making moves to distract the enemy in one direction then  reveal a new hidden threat elsewhere.

beyond that, what Mab does is a variation of speed chess in which a master player plays dozens of games at once against all comers;  to make it real fun, half of them are played blind. its round robin speed Xanatos gambit chess. And she's very good at it.

Quote
There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened. :)



Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 14, 2013, 01:11:28 PM
Quote
there's only one way to know that the WG's team will get involved in keeping Harry safe. That is foresight. Unless, of course, one has faith. In which case, even if you don't know, you believe that he will intervene.
hows this forsight? because the WG is omnipotent and knows harry's dumb ass has to save the world one day so he pulls fat from fryer? WG intervenes all the time even to people who don't actually believe like sanya.
Quote
Do you really think there's space anywhere in her personality for faith? If she doesn't have faith, or foresight, how can she know when the WG is going to intervene to keep Harry safe?
she doesn't need it, she has proven capable of following the actions of WG archangels in Smf and GS.  the WG and mab have had interest in positive outcomes in multiple books. and either by incidence or design do work along side each other. so :P
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 14, 2013, 01:20:45 PM
Quote
"A user of dark magic will gain Winter's Favor.  Fate and coincidence will stop Chicago's Warden from using the scrying tool he developed with Kemmler's familiar until X nights after the warlock's execution."
that doesn't do it for me. winters favor? so? nothing about scrying tool needing fixing? and wouldn't he need a specific time of day? its not like night explains when harry used it. to clarify he would have had to tail harrys every move directly, mab has servants, and can blink.
Quote
Aww, man, that's not fair! You asked me to come up with a possible message from the future, and I did, and now you say that's cheating?! Damned, if I do, damned if I don't

yep. ;) no worries. i consider myself correct until proven wrong. if you can't, then my opinion is just as valid as yours until i prove yours invalid. this is a win. remember "there are many truths but only one set of facts".
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: robertltux on February 14, 2013, 02:52:59 PM
Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?

Cool idea but then we would need a good head and shoulders picture of MAB (and just for fun Titania)

Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 14, 2013, 03:40:32 PM
Cool idea but then we would need a good head and shoulders picture of MAB (and just for fun Titania)

just hit google for winter queen. there are tons

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_veKUlFAjClw/TP1gOqyQ3dI/AAAAAAAAAGE/LbupvjC-MsY/s1600/winter_queen_by_phatpuppy-d32q7os.jpg)
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Theonlyspiral on February 14, 2013, 05:00:51 PM
Molly? Is that you?
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 15, 2013, 09:41:08 PM
hows this forsight? because the WG is omnipotent and knows harry's dumb ass has to save the world one day so he pulls fat from fryer? WG intervenes all the time even to people who don't actually believe like sanya.

[...]

she doesn't need it, she has proven capable of following the actions of WG archangels in Smf and GS.  the WG and mab have had interest in positive outcomes in multiple books. and either by incidence or design do work along side each other. so :P

So out of curiosity, if Mab is willing to rely on the WG's team stopping Dresden from using LC while it's broken, why isn't she relying on them also fixing it for her when she needs it fixed? It's one thing for Mab to rely on Uriel doing his job (intervening when the Big L does something on Earth), it's quite another for her to continuously rely on angelic intervention when she finds it convenient, particularly since she knows she can't control how they will intervene (they could have just as easily sent Mister to run around the model messing everything up and forcing Harry to start from scratch).

Also, keep in mind, the Fae cannot accept favors or gifts without providing something in return. If she's relying on the WG's help on this, that means she owes him. So this is both having faith, and ending up owing favors... it just strikes me as un-Mab-like, you know?

that doesn't do it for me. winters favor? so? nothing about scrying tool needing fixing?

The thought process is fairly straight-forward, in my opinion:

"Gee, I wonder why I'm getting this prophecy about Dresden's scrying tool and a deadline? It must be important, I should probably check it out before that date."
[...]
"Well, here I am, in Dresden's lab and here's his scrying tool... well, what do you know, there's a bug in one of the power couplings. Better fix that before he uses it, or his head will explode."

and wouldn't he need a specific time of day? its not like night explains when harry used it. to clarify he would have had to tail harrys every move directly, mab has servants, and can blink. 

We already know that Rashid does that for important situations. He spent all of Summer Knight following Dresden around to make sure he was on hand to give him the tools he would need to save Lily. I'm just suggesting he did the same thing here, but away from Harry's sight.

Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 16, 2013, 12:08:28 AM
the biggest problem with the gatekeeper fixed LC, for me, is this WOJ:

Quote
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old. 

It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.

at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.

ya see ?
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 16, 2013, 01:10:02 AM
the biggest problem with the gatekeeper fixed LC, for me, is this WOJ:

It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.

at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.

ya see ?

OR, JB didn't mention TTH because it's going to be a surprise later.  He's not going to say "Ask yourself why Mab had Time-Travellin' Harry bring Molly in.".  And why would she chose Molly at that point?  Not because Harry and Molly were already so close.  But maybe because TTH demanded it, so Mab took an interest in her.

ya see ?   ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 16, 2013, 01:40:04 AM
OR, JB didn't mention TTH because it's going to be a surprise later.  He's not going to say "Ask yourself why Mab had Time-Travellin' Harry bring Molly in.".  And why would she chose Molly at that point?  Not because Harry and Molly were already so close.  But maybe because TTH demanded it, so Mab took an interest in her.

ya see ?   ;) :D ;D

that's.. unique. It gets a medal for the virtue of having never been tried before.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 16, 2013, 03:48:37 AM
Quote
So out of curiosity, if Mab is willing to rely on the WG's team stopping Dresden from using LC while it's broken,
Also, keep in mind, the Fae cannot accept favors or gifts without providing something in return.
who says she relies on it? she takes advantage of it. totally different. the WG isn't acting on her behalf or for her benifit. that they have similar interests is a coincidence she can use to her advantage.
Quote
(they could have just as easily sent Mister to run around the model messing everything up and forcing Harry to start from scratch).
but then he can't use it later and LC doesn't become a chekov's gun for us to debate endlessly about before its revealed to be a red herring that kept us from seeing what jim is really setting up :o which is harry getting a delorian suped up with a flux capacitor. jk...
the rest i don't even feel the need to reply to... your theory stands  on a gimpy, wobbly leg during an earthquake, no reason to push you if your already falling :P
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 17, 2013, 03:15:58 AM
the biggest problem with the gatekeeper fixed LC, for me, is this WOJ:

Quote
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old.

It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.

at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.

ya see ?

Actually, I've been wondering about that WoJ since Cold Days came out myself. I was hoping to get your feeling at some point on whether the Summer Fire attack on the Winter Wellspring was part of Mab's plan or Nemesis'.

As for the rest, have you considered that even if Molly's kidnapping was part of Mab's plan, Harry's rescue attempt maybe wasn't? I mean, when you think about it, I could see many more advantages for Mab in keeping Molly rather than letting her go.
- It would be easy to threaten her with revealing her crimes against the Law to the Council. She'd be the equivalent of Elaine, owing favors to Winter, being shaped by them, and being prepared for her future role as Lady.
- It would be a heck of a thing to hold over Harry's head. He likely would have been more than willing to take on the Winter Knight position much earlier in order to get Molly back from Mab.

In your view, what advantage does Mab get from allowing Molly to be rescued? I can only think of three, and to be honest, they all seem much weaker reasons to let her go than the two alternatives for keeping her I listed above.
1. Mab would not want to make enemies with the WG's forces. Considering that the first time we meet Lea, she was part of a scheme to unmake the strongest Sword of the Cross, that doesn't really sound like Winter to me.
2. Mab figured having an apprentice would make Harry level up faster, for lack of a better term. This is something Harry himself mentions in White Night, so it's possible.
3. Keeping Molly with Harry instead of with Winter kept her out of Maeve and Nemesis' crosshairs. I think if Mab had a reason for wanting to Molly rescued, it would have to be this one.

Is there something I'm missing?
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 17, 2013, 03:22:34 AM
who says she relies on it? she takes advantage of it. totally different. the WG isn't acting on her behalf or for her benifit. that they have similar interests is a coincidence she can use to her advantage.

You know, that's not really consistent with the way the White God is portrayed in the series. Remember, we're talking about the guys who allowed a history of abuse to continue in a family for 300 years. We're talking about the guys behind the 10 plagues of Egypt. We're talking about the guys who chose to allow Ivy to be tortured instead of rescuing her during the Aquarium fight so they could give Harry soulfire instead.

These are not not nice people, and they are willing to go to rather extreme lengths to fulfill their mission. Taking advantage of similar interests will leave you stuck on an island for 6 months keeping a soul-less body alive while Uriel borrows the soul without permission, subjects it to enough danger that it is almost permanently destroyed, and after all that, Uriel still tries to give the soul a different job offer and makes it sound like not taking the offer will send it straight to Hell.

Yeah, real smart to take advantage of the White God's interest in Harry without putting a deal in place first [/sarcasm]

the rest i don't even feel the need to reply to... your theory stands  on a gimpy, wobbly leg during an earthquake, no reason to push you if your already falling :P

If you honestly believe that my suggesting that the Gatekeeper decided to act in Proven Guilty in a way that's consistent with the way he's acted in Summer Knight, Turn Coat, and Cold Days, is the equivalent of a "theory standing on a gimpy, wobbly leg", then I guess we can just agree to disagree. Thank you for bringing up the point about the content of the message from the future. I think that's the first time that idea's been brought up here.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 17, 2013, 03:28:44 AM
It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.

at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.

ya see ?


Actually, I've been wondering about that WoJ since Cold Days came out myself. I was hoping to get your feeling at some point on whether the Summer Fire attack on the Winter Wellspring was part of Mab's plan or Nemesis'.

As for the rest, have you considered that even if Molly's kidnapping was part of Mab's plan, Harry's rescue attempt maybe wasn't? I mean, when you think about it, I could see many more advantages for Mab in keeping Molly rather than letting her go.
- It would be easy to threaten her with revealing her crimes against the Law to the Council. She'd be the equivalent of Elaine, owing favors to Winter, being shaped by them, and being prepared for her future role as Lady.
- It would be a heck of a thing to hold over Harry's head. He likely would have been more than willing to take on the Winter Knight position much earlier in order to get Molly back from Mab.

In your view, what advantage does Mab get from allowing Molly to be rescued? I can only think of three, and to be honest, they all seem much weaker reasons to let her go than the two alternatives for keeping her I listed above.
1. Mab would not want to make enemies with the WG's forces. Considering that the first time we meet Lea, she was part of a scheme to unmake the strongest Sword of the Cross, that doesn't really sound like Winter to me.
2. Mab figured having an apprentice would make Harry level up faster, for lack of a better term. This is something Harry himself mentions in White Night, so it's possible.
3. Keeping Molly with Harry instead of with Winter kept her out of Maeve and Nemesis' crosshairs. I think if Mab had a reason for wanting to Molly rescued, it would have to be this one.

Is there something I'm missing?

well .. what I believe..is that Mab kidnapped Moly because she has a plan for molly, and she needed to get molly to AT in such a way that nemesis would not realize how important molly was.

of course, im the nut who think Mab hid LC from Harry in TC, to force him to go to demon reach, because she had plan later that required using demon reach and harry as part of a trap for her enemies.

now if only she could lure them into direct action.. by say letting her knight be killed...

rather then re write the whole thing out, have a link:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html)
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 17, 2013, 03:49:47 AM
well .. what I believe..is that Mab kidnapped Moly because she has a plan for molly, and she needed to get molly to AT in such a way that nemesis would not realize how important molly was.

of course, im the nut who think Mab hid LC from Harry in TC, to force him to go to demon reach, because she had plan later that required using demon reach and harry as part of a trap for her enemies.

now if only she could lure them into direct action.. by say letting her knight be killed...

rather then re write the whole thing out, have a link:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html)

Just wanted to confirm which parts of that you still subscribe to after our discussion in this topic. As I previously mentioned, I'm still not convinced Mab has access to foresight. You mentioned in this topic that you don't think Mab can see how her actions will change the future away from what she saw, to which I pointed out that well, other beings who can see the future have been shown being able to tell exactly how their words change the future (Angels and Fallen) or have WoJ confirming that they have that skill (quoting: "Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you're doing right now a week and a half ago.").

Do you still believe Mab has personal access to future knowledge, and if so, what evidence makes you think so? Do you still think it works differently from Angels and Odin? And if she does, why wasn't she using it prior to the big final fight in Cold Days? She kinda didn't see much coming that day.

If she can't see the future... can the rest of that topic stand without her having foresight?

Also, I don't think that topic answers my question about who's plan the Summer Fire attack on Winter's Wellspring was. I personally believe that the attack resulted in the Gate being unguarded for some time as every member of Winter rushed to AT, so it just doesn't make sense as something for Mab to have actually intended, you know? What are your thoughts on this?

(Actually, it does make sense to me, but I'd rather hear your thoughts first, rather than bias them with my own idea).
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 17, 2013, 04:08:08 AM
Quote
You know, that's not really consistent with the way the White God is portrayed in the series. Remember, we're talking about the guys who allowed a history of abuse to continue in a family for 300 years. We're talking about the guys behind the 10 plagues of Egypt.
are we still talking DF here?
Quote
These are not not nice people, and they are willing to go to rather extreme lengths to fulfill their mission. Taking advantage of similar interests will leave you stuck on an island for 6 months keeping a soul-less body alive while Uriel borrows the soul without permission, subjects it to enough danger that it is almost permanently destroyed, and after all that, Uriel still tries to give the soul a different job offer and makes it sound like not taking the offer will send it straight to Hell.
yep, mabs agenda doesn't always coincide with the WG's. makes her pissy don't it?
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 17, 2013, 04:13:24 AM
Quote
If you honestly believe that my suggesting that the Gatekeeper decided to act in Proven Guilty in a way that's consistent with the way he's acted in Summer Knight, Turn Coat, and Cold Days, is the equivalent of a "theory standing on a gimpy, wobbly leg", then I guess we can just agree to disagree.
i was using a humorous auphymism to point out your theory at times has no weight and relies on pure conjecture to make up for these fallicies. but put that way no, GK prefers to work without dirtying his hands or meddling in what aught not be meddled in(he's the uriel of the bunch, ebs the michael). SK was different, it was WC business. thanks.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 17, 2013, 04:34:13 AM
Just wanted to confirm which parts of that you still subscribe to after our discussion in this topic. As I previously mentioned, I'm still not convinced Mab has access to foresight. You mentioned in this topic that you don't think Mab can see how her actions will change the future away from what she saw, to which I pointed out that well, other beings who can see the future have been shown being able to tell exactly how their words change the future (Angels and Fallen) or have WoJ confirming that they have that skill (quoting: "Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you're doing right now a week and a half ago.").

Do you still believe Mab has personal access to future knowledge, and if so, what evidence makes you think so? Do you still think it works differently from Angels and Odin? And if she does, why wasn't she using it prior to the big final fight in Cold Days? She kinda didn't see much coming that day.

If she can't see the future... can the rest of that topic stand without her having foresight?

Also, I don't think that topic answers my question about who's plan the Summer Fire attack on Winter's Wellspring was. I personally believe that the attack resulted in the Gate being unguarded for some time as every member of Winter rushed to AT, so it just doesn't make sense as something for Mab to have actually intended, you know? What are your thoughts on this?

(Actually, it does make sense to me, but I'd rather hear your thoughts first, rather than bias them with my own idea).


I still believe Mab can see the future, and is very good at it. She's just not perfect though, because the Dresden universe is a non deterministic one- no one in that universe, even a cosmic level god, can see the future 100% IMO.

seeing the future, and interpreting it, are two different things. I don't know if you've ever read Thomas Covenant, but I know Jim has ( he's lamp shaded in the books) and a big part of it in that series (which has a lot to do with free will, much like this one) is there are two parts:

Seer, who has visions of the future

and Prophet, who can tell you what those visions  mean.

now all the rest is IMO:

Mab is a very good Seer- she can foresee very well often years in advance, but doesn't always understand why things will happen the way they do. And she knows she could be wrong.

and she play chess against someone with the exact same limitations. Currently Mab's up on position but down on points, losing Maeve hurt a lot.

some people wonder why N left Maeve so much of her own free will and let her direct some of the action, while he just took over cat sith. Its because N understood Mab loves Maeve, and as long as there was even the smallest chance that she could be saved, would be willing to risk her own life to try and do so. In some messed up way, its Mab's biggest weakness.. she can still love.

as to how Mab sees the future, I think she has several methods. But I believe a major one is that the mantle of the queens was once one thing, before it was split; first into three pieces and then into six when the courts split into summer/ winter.

Being a far more advanced and powerful version of the archive, all persons who wear it, in all times, are somewhat connected; to each according to their gifts, and from each according to their intellects. So much like in the ancient Celtic myths of old, Mab can remember not only what past wearers knew but also foresee what future members might know.

Its the Once and Future.. Queen.

 ;)

So do I think Molly goes back in time and becomes Mab? nope, not anymore. I think Mab goes into the future and becomes Molly.

If Book 20 doesn't end with 'all hail queen Molly' ill eat my bill.

As Mab approaches the point of change, her future memories of Molly become more clear, and having fresh human emotions, more strong. Thus the 'mine, mine, mine' in Changes, and the whole speech at the end of CD about how Harry raised Molly. It may have been about her training, but what it was relay about was how much Molly/ Mab loved Harry, and how little he loved her, and how much it hurt them.

was it unfair? yes, certainly. but it was also very real.

probably the scariest things is, if I am right, Molly/ Mab is damn close to losing it.

The two of them need Harry right now, and since he has his head up his ass to the point where he can smell out his belly button, they aren't likely to get him.



Back OT, I doubt summer fire had anything to do with N and im sure it didn't leave the gates unguarded. The forces that were called back were Mab's border guards, and her reserve force, under the command of the Erlking. That's what, a 1/1000 th of her total force?

I joked in another thread that while we've met Odin and Herne, where are Cerne, Arawn, Lugus.. Jokes aside, Jim mentions there are lots of kings of winter, and I suspect some of them are in command of the gates.



as to the end of CD.. I think a lot of it came out 'within spec'. Mab didn't get exactly what she wanted ( Maeve restored) but she knew the odds on that were always damn long to begin with.

As to the comments of what she intended for Molly.. of course she didn't intend Molly to take Maeve's place. Molly is supposed to someday take hers. Sarrisa was meant to take over Lilly's.  The solution that came out was less then ideal, but its still workable.

on the other hand, she did lure her enemies to attack DR directly, which unknown to them had a fully functional and operational warden. (cue imperial music). that, with the wild hunt and two sidhe kings/ generals put the enemy right between the rock and the hard place.

it cost the enemy dearly too- as outisders must be summoned by mortals, there is a limit to how many they can field. 

kind of hard for Mab to:

- introduce Harry and DR in SmF
- Make her potential knight warden in TC (without N knowing)
- Broadcast his knight Dom in changes, very loudly
- arrange to get him killed , again very publically
- while sitting here
- and diverting the bullet from his head to his heart
- and catching him in the water
- getting rid of that silly death curse
- towing him to the isle, with which she had a deal
- let her enemies get their plans underway
- give them enough rope to hang themselves
- and turn their own trap against them

if she cant have fore seen at least some of that, right?

I mean, heck, Batman cant pull off plans like that, and he's one of the worst mary sue's in history.

 ;D

ps- as to the WG, im not sure how much he's even involved. I do think Mab and Uriel have come to an 'understanding' and that Mab is not happy about it, one bit.




 
 
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 17, 2013, 08:18:05 PM
are we still talking DF here?

The first bit I reference comes straight from the short story the Warrior. The second one comes from Bob, who told Harry that Uriel was the being in charge of the biblical plagues. Of course, Bob could have been wrong there. But at least 2 of the 3 examples provided are things that we saw happening in the books.

yep, mabs agenda doesn't always coincide with the WG's. makes her pissy don't it?

... If she's taking advantage of it knowing that their agendas don't really coincide, wouldn't that make her kinda stupid? That is, of course, unless she happens to have faith in the WG for some reason.

i was using a humorous auphymism to point out your theory at times has no weight and relies on pure conjecture to make up for these fallicies.

Since I'm always trying to improve myself, could you maybe provide some examples of the times where my theory has no weight and relies on conjecture? Maybe that way I can make a better defense of it.

but put that way no, GK prefers to work without dirtying his hands or meddling in what aught not be meddled in(he's the uriel of the bunch, ebs the michael). SK was different, it was WC business. thanks.

I find this statement utterly confusing. First of all, because Uriel is most definitely the kind to dirty his hands (unless you believe his "plausible deniability" thing in Ghost Story; you know, the one Harry didn't actually believe?). As examples of Uriel getting his hands dirty, there's the events of Small Favor, The Warrior, Ghost Story... every appearance of his, actually. His problems are two, actually: first, if he gets his hand too dirty, the world may end up exploding due to his sheer power level. Second, if he gets his hands too dirty, he may end up accidentally switching sides, and that would be bad.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the Gatekeeper acted the way he did in Summer Knight because it was Council business. To begin with, it's clear that he's the only member of the Senior Council who kept such a close eye on Harry, something not even Eb did. He also made it clear that he wasn't there observing because of the Council's Trial, but rather, because he knew how bad the situation in Faerie was, and that only Harry would be allowed to resolve things. And even then, he did everything he could to help Harry, providing him with the glamour cream, the bit of the Table, and a Way back to Chicago from the Mother's Cottage. Do you remember how Mab reacted when she realized who gave Harry this stuff? Sounds to me like even Mab recognizes Rashid as a meddlesome old man.

The events of Turn Coat  follow this same theme. Rashid does as much as he can, given his limitations and his very busy schedule in his extremely important job. He can't actually step foot on Demonreach, so it's not like he could have stuck around to help Harry with the fight, or volunteered to be part of the arresting party. And even then, in the middle of the fight, he sends a message that helps the good guys win, showing once again that he's keeping a close eye on the situation.

So the fact that he decided to involve himself in Proven Guilty and then proceeded to do nothing else doesn't really align with his other appearances at all. If he follows the same pattern as before, he must have been watching from afar, and ready to give Harry the tools he would need to succeed. That's what Rashid does.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wizard nelson on February 17, 2013, 09:37:13 PM
Quote
... If she's taking advantage of it knowing that their agendas don't really coincide, wouldn't that make her kinda stupid? That is, of course, unless she happens to have faith in the WG for some reason.
no.... why would it? its the same as ' my enemies enemy is my friend'. take advantage of what you can. heck if your enemy is doing something you can take advantage of, then do so. doesn't make them your friend or you stupid when they make a move you can't use against them.
an i don't really wanna debate with you anymore. :-\ every point i make gets something like that ^ in defence. it doesn't directly prove anything or support your theory with a logical conclusion. i'm... having trouble articulating what i mean... suffice it to say i made my points, you made your counter points. anyone reading can decide for themselves which argument carries more weight.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 17, 2013, 10:04:37 PM
Back OT, I doubt summer fire had anything to do with N and im sure it didn't leave the gates unguarded. The forces that were called back were Mab's border guards, and her reserve force, under the command of the Erlking. That's what, a 1/1000 th of her total force?

Keep in mind, Harry actually asked Lea who was coming to Arctis Tor as a result of his attack. Her reply was “Why, all of Winter, child. All of us.” Is there any particular reason you're doubting her word? Is this like how when she says in Summer Knight that Mab and Titania are on the same level as the archangels and the lesser gods, you say that she's wrong? (At least, I think that was you? It was in the topic about relative power levels where you quoted your previously calculated values. Could have been someone else in the topic, though, in which case, I apologize for the case of mistaken identity.)

Out of curiosity, what do you think was the Gatekeeper's purpose in warning Harry about the Dark Magic at the beginning of Proven Guilty? To borrow a bit from Jim himself, what chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it? If I'm reading your interpretation right, it doesn't seem to have actually accomplished anything at all...
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 17, 2013, 10:39:38 PM
Keep in mind, Harry actually asked Lea who was coming to Arctis Tor as a result of his attack. Her reply was “Why, all of Winter, child. All of us.” Is there any particular reason you're doubting her word? Is this like how when she says in Summer Knight that Mab and Titania are on the same level as the archangels and the lesser gods, you say that she's wrong? (At least, I think that was you? It was in the topic about relative power levels where you quoted your previously calculated values. Could have been someone else in the topic, though, in which case, I apologize for the case of mistaken identity.)

Out of curiosity, what do you think was the Gatekeeper's purpose in warning Harry about the Dark Magic at the beginning of Proven Guilty? To borrow a bit from Jim himself, what chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it? If I'm reading your interpretation right, it doesn't seem to have actually accomplished anything at all...

because being possessed by nemesis allows a sidhe to be less than honest, and she was obviously not functioning on all gears at the time?

and Lea gets rather poetic at times. Also, Jim uses the word 'peer' in terms of status not power level.

its a doylist interpretation for me: the reader needs to know how foresight and prophecy work, and what steps it takes to change the foreseen future. To harry, its a heads up that he is involved in such a prophecy somehow.

from GK's pov, I think he may have been testing the waters. At this point, he was half convinced Harry had been infected by N and wanted to see what happens.

frankly I think if GK was involved at all it was as Mab's agent. It was her plan, she started the ball rolling.. its quite plausible she briefed GK, but she may not of.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 17, 2013, 11:06:05 PM
because being possessed by nemesis allows a sidhe to be less than honest, and she was obviously not functioning on all gears at the time?

Fair enough, I figured that would be your reply. I can't imagine the advantage to Nemesis in making the threat seem bigger than it was instead of smaller, though.

and Lea gets rather poetic at times. Also, Jim uses the word 'peer' in terms of status not power level.


Uhm, what Lea actually said was that the Queens have "power to rival the archangels and lesser gods." I don't really see how there's a lot of room for interpretation and poetry in that, but that may just be me.

from GK's pov, I think he may have been testing the waters. At this point, he was half convinced Harry had been infected by N and wanted to see what happens.


Would you mind expanding on this a bit? I'm not sure I see what you mean here.

frankly I think if GK was involved at all it was as Mab's agent. It was her plan, she started the ball rolling.. its quite plausible she briefed GK, but she may not of.

...Considering that we've actually seem Rashid look into the future in text (Turn Coat) and that there was a whole scene with Bob and Harry discussing how Rashid likely saw into the future in this book, wouldn't Occam's Razor (and Doylist analysis) suggest that it was the other way around, and it was Rashid who briefed Mab and led her to get the ball rolling?
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 17, 2013, 11:24:09 PM
1- im not sure how much control nemesis has over his agents, frankly, half the time it seems all he can do is drive em nuts.

2- define 'power to rival'. also 'lesser gods'. frankly some of these numbers I came up with for power level are so insanely huge that there is a lot of wiggle room.

3- if you believe GK, then until TC he suspected Harry of being an agent of the enemy.  If he interferes at all it will be with considerable caution.

4- this actually remind me of another debate about another Jim book. Back when the second furies book came out, I concluded that the main queen - HIB- had furies, due to her blood connection to Tavi, and that explained some of her tactics and plans.

this idea met with rich mockery and several flame wars, with each succeeding book getting worse; Jim would drop another hint that HIB had furies, and people would come up with these really impressive logical arguments how its not correct, it cant be true, etc etc.. My favorite was the thread dedicated to how HIB flies with the aid of insect wings she had hidden under her cloak, and that's why she wears the cloak.. there was even accompanying illustrations.

the 'Mab has precognition' thing is pretty much the same. And much like the previous discussion, it will only be resolved when Mab walks around telling the future.. oh wait, she's done that.

maybe if she shows up with a t shirt saying ' seen then, done that' .. or a neon sign. Yup , that might work.

   ;D
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: wyltok on February 18, 2013, 12:06:49 AM
No need to go that far. Let's consider the events of last October, when we were presented with a pin-up calendar image of Molly as Winter Lady (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34193.0.html). Had anyone actually looked at that image and reached that conclusion, with the evidence available at that time, they would have deserved to be disregarded and/or flamed. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and up until then, we had never seen anyone not of Fae blood pick up the mantle.

(And we were told that Lily was the first not-fully-Fae Lady, even! And then Jim told us that Lily was lying to herself, and she had been forced to choose Fae by the mantle! See how all the evidence points away from it being possible for Molly to become Winter Lady?).

And yet... that's exactly what happened. And yet, just because it's what happened, it doesn't mean that logic would have allowed us to see it coming. It just means that, as Spock pointed out a long time ago, logic is not the only path to wisdom.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 18, 2013, 01:50:54 AM
No need to go that far. Let's consider the events of last October, when we were presented with a pin-up calendar image of Molly as Winter Lady (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34193.0.html). Had anyone actually looked at that image and reached that conclusion, with the evidence available at that time, they would have deserved to be disregarded and/or flamed. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and up until then, we had never seen anyone not of Fae blood pick up the mantle.

(And we were told that Lily was the first not-fully-Fae Lady, even! And then Jim told us that Lily was lying to herself, and she had been forced to choose Fae by the mantle! See how all the evidence points away from it being possible for Molly to become Winter Lady?).

And yet... that's exactly what happened. And yet, just because it's what happened, it doesn't mean that logic would have allowed us to see it coming. It just means that, as Spock pointed out a long time ago, logic is not the only path to wisdom.

But I did come to the conclusion that molly would become winter, thru logic...

several years prior to that. The pic was just icing on the cake :D

Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 18, 2013, 11:32:10 PM
But I did come to the conclusion that molly would become winter, thru logic...

several years prior to that. The pic was just icing on the cake :D

If "Molly travels back in time and gets left behind, eventually completing a Darkhallow and ascending to become Mab" is the same as "Molly became Winter Lady when Maeve died", then Vairelome and I were right about Lea's madness being because she was possessed my HWWBh.   http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32204.msg1403385.html#msg1403385

"Lea was possessed by HWWBh" = "Lea was Infected by Nemesis". 
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 19, 2013, 12:18:13 AM
If "Molly travels back in time and gets left behind, eventually completing a Darkhallow and ascending to become Mab" is the same as "Molly became Winter Lady when Maeve died", then Vairelome and I were right about Lea's madness being because she was possessed my HWWBh.   http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32204.msg1403385.html#msg1403385

"Lea was possessed by HWWBh" = "Lea was Infected by Nemesis".

there were always two versions of that, Molly/ Mab and Mab/ LC.

the first took some serious WAGs and may or may not have any relevance.

the second came dang close, and also predicted a connection between Molly and winter without ever specifying what that connection was.

the reason for the two was the question : How does Mab predict the future?

If it was time travel, then Mab is a character we know now by another name. Hence, Molly.

If it was by precognition, then Mab can just be herself. But she still kidnapped molly for a reason, and that reason has something to do with winter; ergo, Molly is important to winter..

then I got on my logic choo choo train and drove around for a bit.

 ;D

and Ill accept your conclusion about Lea and Nemesis, frankly. its close enough for hand grenades to me; when making WAGS we cant be held responsible for elements Jim hasn't shown yet.
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 19, 2013, 12:34:28 AM
there were always two versions of that, Molly/ Mab and Mab/ LC.

the first took some serious WAGs and may or may not have any relevance.

the second came dang close, and also predicted a connection between Molly and winter without ever specifying what that connection was.

the reason for the two was the question : How does Mab predict the future?

If it was time travel, then Mab is a character we know now by another name. Hence, Molly.

If it was by precognition, then Mab can just be herself. But she still kidnapped molly for a reason, and that reason has something to do with winter; ergo, Molly is important to winter..

then I got on my logic choo choo train and drove around for a bit.

 ;D

and Ill accept your conclusion about Lea and Nemesis, frankly. its close enough for hand grenades to me; when making WAGS we cant be held responsible for elements Jim hasn't shown yet.

I also take credit for being right about Demonreach being an island prison.  I originally said it was an island, and that's half of "island prison".    8)   ;)   ;D
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Ms Duck on February 19, 2013, 12:39:25 AM
I also take credit for being right about Demonreach being an island prison.  I originally said it was an island, and that's half of "island prison".    8)   ;)   ;D

you get one nano point for that.  ;)
Title: Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 19, 2013, 01:18:19 AM
you get one nano point for that.  ;)

Thus do I combine that nano point with my other 4 CD nano points (WAGs: Molly-is-still-unrequited; Murphy-still-has-cold-feet; Harry-still-doesn't-get-laid; Harry-will-drive-a-badly-painted-hearse) to buy an authentic Harry Dresden hat reproduction.