Great topic! Despite the Christmas Eve story indicating a huge number of deaths, I think Battleground will wind up being comparable to the Battle of Winterfell in GoT--a few key characters and lots and lots of unnamed going to their deaths.As long as it doesn't have large chunks of the text blacked out and end with say, Ramirez resolving everything while Harry is off shouting at something ineffectually.
I think Billy and Georgia are likely culprits to go.God, I hope no. At least not both of them. It would be like The Battle of Hogwarts, when I was more or less calm because Tonks was the baby...and then she appeared in the battle. It broke my heart. So I hope one of them remains with their children.
I think Billy and Georgia are likely culprits to go. They fit the bill (npi) of characters that Harry would feel devastated about losing but who haven't really been integral parts of the story as of late. I think Murphy is going to be safe (from being killed off), because overly obvious foreshadowing aside, Christmas Eve tells us that Harry saved the day by getting different parties to back down, which would indicate he's thinking rationally. Murphy dying would likely involve a lot more buildings burning to the ground.
One "other" vote for Titania.Added! I thought I'd included her but I guess not
I'm picturing her taking a shot at Mab and it doesn't go well.
I doubt Murphy is going to die off page. She could die, and Harry "get's in everyone's face" in the wrap up chapter which often takes place a few days after all the action. This way Harry could have enough time to calm down enough to not just light everything on fire but still be in an emotional state where he derides the assembled White Council who is about to vote on expelling him or whoever it whose face he get's in with likely similarly severe consequences.
The Titan has an army, Harry took out the Titan BUT THAT STILL LEFT AN ARMY. I doubt the army would surrender so it would be a bloody grind eliminating them unit by unit and there would be a lot of civilian casualties. This not something Harry has faced before, it has always been take out the bad guy and game over, or the battle is away from civilians, like Raith Deeps. A victory but NOT a clean victory is on the cards.
I actually think that is where Little Chicago will come into play, and Harry will need Bob, running the mopping up operation making decisions to save a Hospital or a suburb from Fomor action, when he doesn’t have the forces to do both.
“Just out of curiosity,” I said, “is it going to be possible for her to freeze someone’s heart and turn them into an ice statue?”I'm pretty sure he's being literal and just referencing the children's movie only.
Mab looked baffled. “Those are the powers in the motion picture. Should I have cheated her?”
I'm pretty sure he's being literal and just referencing the children's movie only.
I don’t think Harry’s Hat will survive Battle Ground.
The hat will be hit so hard that it will be erased backwards through time, killing the hatmaker. That’s why people think it is an urban legend.
I wouldn't wear the Crown of Thorns, they make me think of thorn manacles for a god.
Maybe, or he is in so much emotional pain that he would like to turn cold and unfeeling like little Kay.. I am talking the original story here not the movie.I got you were talking about The Snow Queen. I just think your stretching here.
I got you were talking about The Snow Queen. I just think your stretching here.
The Titan has an army, Harry took out the Titan BUT THAT STILL LEFT AN ARMY. I doubt the army would surrender so it would be a bloody grind eliminating them unit by unit and there would be a lot of civilian casualties. This not something Harry has faced before, it has always been take out the bad guy and game over, or the battle is away from civilians, like Raith Deeps. A victory but NOT a clean victory is on the cards.Mab has LC ver 20 and doesn't need LC Prototype 0.
I actually think that is where Little Chicago will come into play, and Harry will need Bob, running the mopping up operation making decisions to save a Hospital or a suburb from Fomor action, when he doesn’t have the forces to do both.
I think it's a stretch to say it's a reference to The Snow Queen instead of Frozen, that Harry's even familiar with the claim that Frozen is based on The Snow Queen, and/or that Harry's familiar with The Snow Queen.What? I think Harry would be much more familiar with Snow Queen that with Frozen. And he would have thought on Snow Queen as soon as I heard of Frozen, same like I did long before watching the actual movie. The question about freezing the heart is much more in point for Snow Queen that for Frozen.
You think Mab would take something dear to Harry and make it her own against his wishes? She would not!No I think that the next one he built would model the world and be made of crystal.
What? I think Harry would be much more familiar with Snow Queen that with Frozen. And he would have thought on Snow Queen as soon as I heard of Frozen, same like I did long before watching the actual movie. The question about freezing the heart is much more in point for Snow Queen that for Frozen.
Mab leaned over, opened the box, and obligingly touched the ring. It immediately buzzed and the room filled with a swirl of music, as a woman’s voice sang, “The snow glows white on the mountain tonight…”Emphasis added. It's clearly a direct reference to Frozen, Harry is clearly familiar with it, and Harry is clearly concerned about damage to third parties.
I shut the box on the sound and eyed her. It was just possible that I’d already heard that song enough to make my teeth itch.
“Now I understand,” I said drily.
“You are welcome,” she replied.
“Just out of curiosity,” I said, “is it going to be possible for her to freeze someone’s heart and turn them into an ice statue?”
Mab looked baffled. “Those are the powers in the motion picture. Should I have cheated her?”
I rubbed at the spot between my eyes. “Got it. We’ll go someplace nice and quiet to play with this gift.”
I'm pretty sure he's being literal and just referencing the children's movie only.
I think it's a stretch to say it's a reference to The Snow Queen instead of Frozen, that Harry's even familiar with the claim that Frozen is based on The Snow Queen, and/or that Harry's familiar with The Snow Queen.
I'm confused, why are we talking about whether or not the ring that plays Let it Go on loop is a reference to Frozen or a reference to the Snow Queen?We are not. The ring, as most of the conversation, is about Frozen, that is without doubt. But the specific question “is it going to be possible for her to freeze someone’s heart and turn them into an ice statue" is tricky, because Elsa makes ice statues but not freezes any hearts. That was what the Snow Queen did in the tale. And that is a story Harry should probably be more familiar than Frozen. He reads a lot and he cannot see a lot of movies (due to his murphyonic field). When reading all that, I did not think he has seen the movie, only that he knows about it like I did long before watching it. So he thought it was based on Snow Queen. And he was right (it has been stated many times that the original idea was to make an actual Snow Queen movie, with Elsa as a villain. Only the first tests showed that everybody loved her as a secure, powerful, good character).
... because Elsa makes ice statues but not freezes any hearts.She accidentally freezes her sister's heart, and almost kills her.
Anyway, I don't think this is relevant because I don't think Harry wants his own heart to be "iced", he only wants to be sure that Maggie can't hurt anyone while playing.Yep.
I'm confused, why are we talking about whether or not the ring that plays Let it Go on loop is a reference to Frozen or a reference to the Snow Queen?To fill our Dresden fix until 9/29? But actually the argument is about this:
Anyway, I don't think this is relevant because I don't think Harry wants his own heart to be "iced", he only wants to be sure that Maggie can't hurt anyone while playing.Mira said that's what Harry wants. My point is that you have to assume that Harry is familiar with The Snow Queen, made the connection between Frozen and The Snow Queen, that Harry believes the ring that is clearly based on Frozen has powers from The Snow Queen, and then that he wants his heart to be frozen so he doesn't feel emotion.
Mira said that's what Harry wants. My point is that you have to assume that Harry is familiar with The Snow Queen, made the connection between Frozen and The Snow Queen, that Harry believes the ring that is clearly based on Frozen has powers from The Snow Queen, and then that he wants his heart to be frozen so he doesn't feel emotion.
She accidentally freezes her sister's heart, and almost kills her.Yep.(click to show/hide)
(Harry ... probably has not seen the movie himself)He's heard the song enough to make his teeth itch. Michael probably taught him Molly's sit in a circle in the living room while everyone watches tv trick.
Before I get to my guesses, I want to point out what JB has been doing since SmF. He has been systematically taking away Harry's allies. SmF it was Michael, TC it was Morgan, Changes was Susan, CD was Molly, SG was Butters, and now in PT we lose Thomas. And we have even lost Will and Georgia off page do to them being parents.
Excellent list. I'd add: Luccio in Turn Coat; Lash in White Night; Ivy and Kinkaid in Changes; Bob in Ghost Story...
Although he's gained Grey and River Shoulders and Demonreach over the same sequence of books.
There are going to be gut wrenching casualties me fears... When you think gut punch, you then have to narrow the list down considerably.. Those are Murphy, Eb, Listens to Wind, Thomas, possibly Justine, depending on how she dies, these would be real blows to the solar plexus.. Billy, Luccio, Carlos, would hurt, but a tear or two and one would get over it like when Morgan died. Though I admit if Toot buys it I won't ever think of pizza the same again.. ::)
Before I get to my guesses, I want to point out what JB has been doing since SmF. He has been systematically taking away Harry's allies. SmF it was Michael, TC it was Morgan, Changes was Susan, CD was Molly, SG was Butters, and now in PT we lose Thomas. And we have even lost Will and Georgia off page do to them being parents.
I really do think Murphy is going to survive BG and last until at least the BAT.
Eb really seems doomed after PT.
I mostly agree with the principle, but before TC Morgan was more enemy than ally. Even in DB he tried to kill Harry (and came very close), they almost fought in PG, and Morgan wasn't in WN or SmF.
And Susan had been gone for 6 books before Changes. Her death was a huge loss to Harry, but on the emotional side, not really a loss of an ally in the sense of someone he could rely on for help or support (she'd been on a different continent for years).
And I expect Will and Georgia to be back in BG. Being parents may make them less risk-taking and have less time available in general, but defending the city is different, I think.
And Susan had been gone for 6 books before Changes. Her death was a huge loss to Harry, but on the emotional side, not really a loss of an ally in the sense of someone he could rely on for help or support (she'd been on a different continent for years).
Yes, but who is Harry going to bring back with him in Mirror, Mirror?
I wonder I’d we are going to see Harry make a choice between a vampire version of Susan or a version of Murphy who doesn’t love him?
Of course Jim will take the fork which causes Harry the most anguish. Which casualty in his life might he bring back? They would have to alive post Grave Peril, so not his mother, father, Carmichael or Kim Delaney. Will it be an old character like Kirby (poor Butters), or one or more of the freshly dead?
Alternative Harry was screwing up all these alternative worlds by removing Harry’s from them but not more than if somebody else had killed Harry and made his body disappear. Not like the messing with time screw up, not like swimming against the current.
Which makes me wonder... are other Starborn going to step up in those worlds that lost their version of Harry? Or is their version of the BAT going to go wrong and destroy those universes?Of course these universes are completely lost and are just now popping out of existence :)
Of course these universes are completely lost and are just now popping out of existence :)
Alternate worlds not from a different part in the timeline of his world.I'd agree, but it still does the same thing as messing with time in Endgame. Divergence.. though... If you already know a timeline is going to go dark(as in end) then taking someone fated to die might be different.
Alternative Harry was screwing up all these alternative worlds by removing Harry’s from them but not more than if somebody else had killed Harry and made his body disappear. Not like the messing with time screw up, not like swimming against the current.yessss! This is part of why my theory for mirror mirror involves a sliders/quantum leap style adventure. Getting back to his own timeline may not be enough, he might have to fix every divergence caused by his death and removal..
yessss! This is part of why my theory for mirror mirror involves a sliders/quantum leap style adventure. Getting back to his own timeline may not be enough, he might have to fix every divergence caused by his death and removal..
Though I do ponder the chicken and the egg with MM and our Harry's reality.. to the point I wonder if our Harry didnt exist until MM Harry summoned him into reality from outside, creating the time loop we're actually reading.
yessss! This is part of why my theory for mirror mirror involves a sliders/quantum leap style adventure. Getting back to his own timeline may not be enough, he might have to fix every divergence caused by his death and removal..
Though I do ponder the chicken and the egg with MM and our Harry's reality.. to the point I wonder if our Harry didnt exist until MM Harry summoned him into reality from outside, creating the time loop we're actually reading.
Yes but what is ours is one of them?
Not a loop, I think Jim is an advocate of the Trousers if time theory, that Harry’s nature is as a Starborn/Destroyer is being played out if different legs of the trousers, but evil Harry from the left leg is trying to swap places with good Harry from the right. Evil Harry may have had to abandon his home due to Morgan and the Wardens, and the deterioration of his world, the pandemics and endless winters, the Red Court etc, etc caused by Harry not doing the right thing.oh it's a loop alright. Conservation of history, things keep happening. Everything keeps happening..
oh it's a loop alright. Conservation of history, things keep happening. Everything keeps happening..
Given what Jim has said the book has very little connection to that episode. It sounds more like the City On The Edge Of Forever rather than Mirror, Mirror. I have two expectations for it. Evil Harry will wear a hat and he will have a goatee.
Given what Jim has said the book has very little connection to that episode. It sounds more like the City On The Edge Of Forever rather than Mirror, Mirror. I have two expectations for it. Evil Harry will wear a hat and he will have a goatee.
yessss! This is part of why my theory for mirror mirror involves a sliders/quantum leap style adventure. Getting back to his own timeline may not be enough, he might have to fix every divergence caused by his death and removal..I doubt that's going to happen. It's probably too much for one book ... but if I was Jim, I would maybe mention something about it happening so I could go back and do short stories or something with it because I absolutely love the idea of Harry being the traveling hero. I love DF, Quantum Leap, early Sliders, and just the idea of the wandering hero. I would totally be down for a spin-off of Harry going from world to world fixing them.
What Mirror, Mirror should be is Harry’s It’s A Wonderful Life, that the decisions he has been making are the correct ones, and what’s the bet that Uriel simultaneously exists across all realities (and able to do nothing in virtually all of them) and acts as the role of Clarence to Harry. This might suggest Mirror, Mirror takes place on Christmas Day, after the events of Christmas Eve, which I believe would be the earliest it could take place.Yes, please.
The result would be a more confident, energised Id type Harry. With perhaps the recovery of ‘lost’ people like Morgan or Susan to make the best of both worlds, just as Armageddon is about to break loose on our world.