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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Marconesque on October 06, 2020, 02:53:42 PM
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As we all know HWWBehind could ve killed Harry during the altercation he had with DuMorne, but he chose not to.
It implies that he also considers Harry's life worthy, possibly because he knows his potential in the long term [A Starborn that has the chance against the crazed Outsiders]
*Note that it was speculated that the Outsider had control over DuMorne, not vice versa
Any other Outsider Harry encountered, would have had no problems taking him out,[as we have seen with Sharkface and HWWBesides] indicating that almost all of them share the same goal (boiling down reality to nothingness)
But HWWB is different. Could he be the Thomas of the Outsiders? A monster that goes against his instincts and tries to see the bigger picture?
It would certainly be interesting, seeing how HHWB has been grooming Dresden for decades. Hell, he might even have had an influence over Margaret LeFay or even Blackstaff for that matter (Seeing the link Papa Raith had with HWWB) It would make him an even greater 4d chess player than Mab
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That'd be a fun idea, I'm hoping for something like that to break up the faceless wall of tentacle feel they've got at the moment.
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He Who Walks Before did try to talk to Harry and get him either to stand aside or join them.
I don't love the idea of a rebel, redeemable Outsider. They're supposed to be so alien there's no room for common ground and coexistence. If they aren't that alien, if they aren't an existential threat, then what's the point of any of this?
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HWWBH is definitely a double agent. I'm thinking he's who had control of Cat Sith, the 'look behind you' joke on Harry, the subtle control he had in attacking Harry. Looking at Nemesis and Hwwb4 neither pulled any punches vs Harry. Behind has tho, perhaps repeatedly.
I favor the idea when hwwbh 'imprinted' himself on harry, marked him, he basically defined a container that Harry has slowly been filling up to be MORE like hwwbh... Harry is his preferred host for reasons unknown.. he wasn't just filled with rage and hate, but loathing of self too. That matches Harry's own development.
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HWWBH is definitely a double agent. I'm thinking he's who had control of Cat Sith, the 'look behind you' joke on Harry, the subtle control he had in attacking Harry. Looking at Nemesis and Hwwb4 neither pulled any punches vs Harry. Behind has tho, perhaps repeatedly.
I favor the idea when hwwbh 'imprinted' himself on harry, marked him, he basically defined a container that Harry has slowly been filling up to be MORE like hwwbh... Harry is his preferred host for reasons unknown.. he wasn't just filled with rage and hate, but loathing of self too. That matches Harry's own development.
Except I don't think that can happen because Harry is star born. An Outsider cannot mentally whammy him, at least according to Lash, they cannot.
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Except I don't think that can happen because Harry is star born. An Outsider cannot mentally whammy him, at least according to Lash, they cannot.
They can not or he is just better at resisting it?
You have the potential to hold great power over them. You may be able to escape the power now held over you.
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Except I don't think that can happen because Harry is star born. An Outsider cannot mentally whammy him, at least according to Lash, they cannot.
reread it again, he can't be corrupted by enteracting with them. He can get whammies just like anyone else. But that's besides the point, nothing was done to him to compel him, not on the mental level.
*Lash would not needed to have died otherwise.
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reread it again, he can't be corrupted by enteracting with them. He can get whammies just like anyone else. But that's besides the point, nothing was done to him to compel him, not on the mental level.
*Lash would not needed to have died otherwise.
I'm not sure what you are saying. Harry was aware of what Vittorio was doing with his attack, he wasn't compelled to nothing. He knew he couldn't do anything, or at least at that point because he had no clue that he was a star born and had power over Outsiders.
Lasciel/Lash then tried to tempt him to take up the coin so he could fight them. Harry refused, he didn't want to be a slave to her, he'd rather die or go mad with his friends. When he doesn't give in, she agrees that Lasciel doesn't deserve him, then she explains to him that he can fight them and had before when he was sixteen. Then she took the psychic bullet for Harry and he was able to move and fight.
They can not or he is just better at resisting it?
Both I think, it is like when he and Eb fought the cornerhounds. Eb knew about fighting them, but they were afraid of Harry and he was actually able to see what they see when they see him.
What makes Outsiders so bad ass is their psychic attic. And they did make an effort to recruit him, or Sharkface did in Cold Days. Harry is able to see through that and not be influenced.
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@mira, you said lash said he was immune to mental whammy, never said that, if he was immune to it she need not have sacrificed herself. What he's immune to is corruption/influence by mentally rubbing shoulders against them. If they break open his mind and leave him a blithering idiot he's going to be a blithering idiot..
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@mira, you said lash said he was immune to mental whammy, never said that, if he was immune to it she need not have sacrificed herself. What he's immune to is corruption/influence by mentally rubbing shoulders against them. If they break open his mind and leave him a blithering idiot he's going to be a blithering idiot..
At that point in the story though, he hadn't even realized he could battle them, or know how. First Lash tries one last time for him to take up the coin, to fight them, but he refuses, that is when he says he'd rather have rice pudding for a brain than take up a coin.. Then she tells him he has power over them. However she doesn't tell him how to fight them, just that he can. He still need help though at that point. I didn't say immune, what I said that it is hard to put the whammy on someone who is aware you are trying to do it. That enables Harry to resist, then fight them. If they could do it, don't you think Justine would have done it on the Beetle as tired, hurt, and distracted by grief as Harry was in that moment? If ever Harry was vulnerable to a mental attack, that was it.
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@Mira.... Im not even sure what your linearly talking about anymore compared to what started this conversation... You said lash said outsiders cannot mentally whammy him, I pointed out this is untrue. What did or didn't happen on the boat is ilrelavent to that. He's not immune to psychic attack and nobody has ever said he was, not even from outsiders.
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Here is something I was wondering, and I'm sure you guys will know of examples of this one way or the other. Can the Outsiders do the mental whammy when they have possession of someone? Or are they somewhat limited to what capabilities that person has? I'm trying to think of when that mental whammy was used and it seems only when the outsider was themselves (sharkface for example). But maybe not in the deeps?
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Here is something I was wondering, and I'm sure you guys will know of examples of this one way or the other. Can the Outsiders do the mental whammy when they have possession of someone? Or are they somewhat limited to what capabilities that person has? I'm trying to think of when that mental whammy was used and it seems only when the outsider was themselves (sharkface for example). But maybe not in the deeps?
Our first example of that whammy was from Vittorio who was just possessed.
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Our first example of that whammy was from Vittorio who was just possessed.
That's right. And that isn't something he would be capable of on his own, I don't think. Was just thinking they might be limited based on who they possess. But maybe not.
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That's right. And that isn't something he would be capable of on his own, I don't think. Was just thinking they might be limited based on who they possess. But maybe not.
well there is one big difference, he was possessing vitto, but dominating Justine and Sith. Perhaps it takes too much focus to control someone as to allow another heavily focused action.
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.. Im not even sure what your linearly talking about anymore compared to what started this conversation... You said lash said outsiders cannot mentally whammy him, I pointed out this is untrue. What did or didn't happen on the boat is ilrelavent to that. He's not immune to psychic attack and nobody has ever said he was, not even from outsiders.
Lash said, that Harry has power over Outsiders. You said it was untrue, go reread White Night.. Well, Vittorio possessed/assisted by an Outsider did it. My retort is, he was able because Harry didn't know he could fight it. He was aware that the whammy was on him though, which is a huge step forward in not unknowingly being possessed by anything unless you want to be.
You said that is why Lash sacrificed herself to save Harry from the whammy...True, but also when she did it Harry still wasn't sure how to do it,she had just told him...
My point about what happened with Justine on the Water Beetle, was if they wanted possess Harry mentally or be able to do it, that was the time. Since Harry was exhausted physically, mentally, emotionally, hurting both physically and emotionally, instead Harry figured it out and called the Outsider/Nemeses/Walker out. That is how it is relevant, if we are talking about Harry unknowingly being taken over and controlled by HeWhoWalksBehind. If it was going to happen, that would have been the time, I really doubt that Nemeses would ever find Harry that vulnerable again.
Actually in Peace Talks Harry discovered that he can turn the tables on the Outsiders. When he and Eb were fighting the cornerhounds, they were trying to put the mental whammy on them. Instead, Harry found himself in their head, felt their fear of him, and saw the image of himself that they see.
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Lash said, that Harry has power over Outsiders. You said it was untrue, go reread White Night.. Well, Vittorio possessed/assisted by an Outsider did it.
no I didn't, My retort is, he was able because Harry didn't know he could fight it. He was aware that the whammy was on him though, which is a huge step forward in not unknowingly being possessed by anything unless you want to be.
there, right there. He's not immune to mental whammies, of she need not sacrifice herself. He wasn't immune to the corner hounds fighting back mentally, he was immune to corruption from interaction with them.You said that is why Lash sacrificed herself to save Harry from the whammy...True, but also when she did it Harry still wasn't sure how to do it,she had just told him...
he didn't do anything special in either CD or PTs when encountering outsiders either, he just resisted them with his will. My point about what happened with Justine on the Water Beetle, was if they wanted possess Harry mentally or be able to do it, that was the time. Since Harry was exhausted physically, mentally, emotionally, hurting both physically and emotionally, instead Harry figured it out and called the Outsider/Nemeses/Walker out.
that wasn't in the plot.. That is how it is relevant, if we are talking about Harry unknowingly being taken over and controlled by HeWhoWalksBehind.
not what I said, yes been marked to resemble him, nothing mental per se, he actually marked his soul(which he obviously was not immune to) and I'm implying it made a container on his aura shaped like Hwwbh. Say, he put water/harry, a mutable object into a bowl/hwwbh shaped If it was going to happen, that would have been the time, I really doubt that Nemeses would ever find Harry that vulnerable again.
🤷♂️ not my fault nemesis didn't do it.
Actually in Peace Talks Harry discovered that he can turn the tables on the Outsiders. When he and Eb were fighting the cornerhounds, they were trying to put the mental whammy on them. Instead, Harry found himself in their head, felt their fear of him, and saw the image of himself that they see.
yes and he still had to fight their mental power in order to win, if he'd lost he wouldn't have been immune to that see? Starborn prevents corruption or Nfection, it does not make you immune to psychic assault.
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there, right there. He's not immune to mental whammies, of she need not sacrifice herself. He wasn't immune to the corner hounds fighting back mentally, he was immune to corruption from interaction with them.
Timing is everything, um I don't know how fine you want to cut it... But immune to corruption from interaction is pretty huge, don't ya think??
he didn't do anything special in either CD or PTs when encountering outsiders either, he just resisted them with his will.
That's the whole point, all his wizard buds and non wizard buds, cannot, because they lack that kind of will.. That is what gives him the power over Outsiders..
that wasn't in the plot.
I am aware as much as you are, but it illustrates that if it was possible as suggested to do a mental take over/manipulation without Harry knowing, that would have been the time. It didn't happen.. Or Jim pulled it off, off page, because I doubt that he will make Harry that vulnerable to Outsider attack again... But then what do I know?? ::)
not what I said, yes been marked to resemble him, nothing mental per se, he actually marked his soul(which he obviously was not immune to) and I'm implying it made a container on his aura shaped like Hwwbh. Say, he put water/harry, a mutable object into a bowl/hwwbh shaped
Please, book, page, and quotation to support this..
not my fault nemesis didn't do it.
True, you weren't there, ??? But if Nemeses didn't do it, it must be a very flawed enemy, because that good a chance may never come again... ::)
yes and he still had to fight their mental power in order to win, if he'd lost he wouldn't have been immune to that see? Starborn prevents corruption or Nfection, it does not make you immune to psychic assault.
Again, immune is your word, not mine.. The point is he can fight their mental power.. And he didn't lose did he? :P
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Harry has been attacked mentally at least four times by Outsiders and he has beaten the attack all four times. And they can't posses him. Killing him is easy, a bullet will do it, or a club. And what in the hell is the mental whammy supposed to be anyway? In the attack at Mac's everybody, including Mac, is incapacitated except Harry. So is the whammy you smacking me in the mouth before I hit you with a chair leg or what.
Here is something I was wondering, and I'm sure you guys will know of examples of this one way or the other. Can the Outsiders do the mental whammy when they have possession of someone? Or are they somewhat limited to what capabilities that person has? I'm trying to think of when that mental whammy was used and it seems only when the outsider was themselves (sharkface for example). But maybe not in the deeps?
Jim as usual is really fuzzy about this, however, Harry is attacked mentally in Cold Days by Sharkface and by Cat Sith whom he again calls Sharkface. So ??????
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That's right. And that isn't something he would be capable of on his own, I don't think. Was just thinking they might be limited based on who they possess. But maybe not.
It was something Vitto could do, just to an extent that he wouldn't be able to do normally. The possession turned him up to 11.
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Please, book, page, and quotation to support this..
pretty much any time one Harry talks about being marked? It doesn't outright say it, that's why it's a theory... Kincaid is not marked by hwwbh, he's marked by his own heritage. And yet harry saw a double image of him with a creature marking him, following him.. defining his inner being.
And immune is a word to convey an idea as its vessel . An Outsider cannot mentally whammy him,
it matters little whichever word you used, that still accurately conveys your intention. Which I am arguing as not presented anywhere in the books. Period. Harry is not immune, able to significantly shrug off without effort, a whammy.
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IMHO, I think being starborn makes you a destroyer to be used by the outsiders or a savior that can level the playing field. HWWBH targeted Harry, either through Justin or used Justin as a conduit to find starborn. It might explain that Drakul is a destroyer and Rashid (if he is) would be a savior. Unless Rashid is playing a long game as a destroyer, but I find that hard to believe if he is working the Outer Gates. It could be that he is strategically letting Nemesis through, but I like to believe in the good guys. Tinfoil hat off now. :)