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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: huangjimmy108 on July 16, 2020, 02:04:05 PM
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Well, the interaction between EB and Harry is probably one of the main content of peace talks. It reveals plenty of information.
Apparently Ebenezar seem to have experience something similar to what Harry has been through recently. and EB seem to make choices on the opposite spectrum from Harry, which seem to throw all the mistakes EB made at his face. Which probably explain why EB is so stubborn about Harry being wrong and stupid.
The battles both Harry and EB gotten into in the book, both against the enemy and against each other show us a lot about what wizards could potentially do given enough time to develop.
And the starborn thing too, though for me this is least important.
So a few questions:
1. Will Harry reach EB's level of power during the Dresden files series?
2. Do you think Ebenezar's lost of control is normal considering everything? or do you think there is fowl play involve like mind whammy or nem infection?
3. Is the starborn thing apply to all children born at that time? All including vanilla humans or it is just magically talented children or just children with wizard level talent. Does it apply to all children born at that time across the globe or just the children born cover by the starlight shining upon the planet?
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I am wondering if Eb isn't suffering from dementia of some sort? His anger is very uncharacteristic, he seems way overboard as far as paranoia goes concerning Harry. Or is he and most of the Senior Council, being wizards, are suseptable to being Nem infected, causing the unusual anger, paranoia, etc, allowing the Enemy to divide and conquer.
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I also thought Eb was uncharacteristic. Maybe infected?
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I also thought Eb was uncharacteristic. Maybe infected?
Not listening en being angry? Trying to persuade without arguments or Relevant information and on authority only? He was like that in Changes.
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Another thing that could be effecting Eb is the use of the Black Staff over time.
From changes we know it pulses with a black energy. Also, if it is Mother Winter's walking stick, we can assume that it is not meant for humans. EB to me is showing impulse control similar to Harry ever since take up the winter mantle.
Anyone agree?
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He gets old. Sometimes dementia can cause anger and agression
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Whamps seem to be a particular pressure point for him. I don't think we've seen him deal with them extensively before. His behavior seems plausible if it looks like history is repeating itself with someone he cares about being led to their doom by the White Court.
Even the most controlled people can get unhinged if someone does a tap dance on their trauma.
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We know Wizards are subject to the same ills as other mortals and that magic doesn’t help. What if Eb is starting to suffer from dementia.? As posited above. He retains all his power but is starting to act irrationally. It would certainlyexplain him possibly whammying Thomas and trying to kill Harry. What can you do?
Demonreach. This may explain the English Prisoner and why he deserves to be there and the compassion protocol, he is another major practitioner suffering from dementia. Harry may have the dilemma of putting his grandfather in Demonreach to stop him harming himself and others. A whole new level of guilt for Harry, he gets Thomas out to replace him permanently with Eb.
We have indications thar Martha Liberty may be starting to suffer from osteoporosis and River Shoulders indicates Listens is not be long for the world. The Senior Council are dying of old age and complaints related to old age.
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We know Wizards are subject to the same ills as other mortals and that magic doesn’t help. What if Eb is starting to suffer from dementia.? As posited above. He retains all his power but is starting to act irrationally. It would certainlyexplain him possibly whammying Thomas and trying to kill Harry. What can you do?
Demonreach. This may explain the English Prisoner and why he deserves to be there and the compassion protocol, he is another major practitioner suffering from dementia. Harry may have the dilemma of putting his grandfather in Demonreach to stop him harming himself and others. A whole new level of guilt for Harry, he gets Thomas out to replace him permanently with Eb.
We have indications thar Martha Liberty may be starting to suffer from osteoporosis and River Shoulders indicates Listens is not be long for the world. The Senior Council are dying of old age and complaints related to old age.
There does seem to be a foreshadowing for the "changing of the guard" if you will. Suddenly older wizards of the Senior Council were old but very powerful, suddenly they seem fragile. Rivershoulders pointed out to Harry that Listens to Wind didn't have long for this world. I will cry
when he leaves, he is one of my favorites. If any of you saw the movie "Little Big Man," one of the stars was a Native American actor named Chief Dan George, he was elderly, strong, and came off as very wise. When I read about Listens to Wind, that is who I picture.
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Eb and Maggie didn't have the best relationship either. Harry is making choices similar to her which is bound to be hitting hard on Eb's emotions. At the same time, Harry is throwing Eb's biggest mistakes back in his face. I don't think his anger is too uncharacteristic. It's covering up fear.
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Eb and Maggie didn't have the best relationship either. Harry is making choices similar to her which is bound to be hitting hard on Eb's emotions. At the same time, Harry is throwing Eb's biggest mistakes back in his face. I don't think his anger is too uncharacteristic. It's covering up fear.
Could be a lot of it, but also outside of that time in Blood Rites, Eb and Harry have never had that
heart to heart, at least not on page, that would answer a lot of questions that still haunt Harry.
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Whamps seem to be a particular pressure point for him. I don't think we've seen him deal with them extensively before. His behavior seems plausible if it looks like history is repeating itself with someone he cares about being led to their doom by the White Court.
Even the most controlled people can get unhinged if someone does a tap dance on their trauma.
Pretty much this.
I don't think this is horribly out-of-character for Eb, or Harry would have told him about Thomas before. (That is, the fact that Harry never mentioned that Thomas is Eb's grandson implies that Harry expected a dangerous reaction from Eb.)
Eb has supported Harry up to now. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a good person. Even though he is probably on the defenders-of-reality side of the current conflict, he's done a lot of pretty terrible things.
Maybe all the collateral damage from things like Krakatoa were justified given the threat, but that's still going to have pretty huge effects on his personality. Eb is protected from actual black magic corruption effects, but that's not going to keep him from becoming mentally scarred/calloused/burned out...
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I am wondering if Eb isn't suffering from dementia of some sort? His anger is very uncharacteristic, he seems way overboard as far as paranoia goes concerning Harry. Or is he and most of the Senior Council, being wizards, are suseptable to being Nem infected, causing the unusual anger, paranoia, etc, allowing the Enemy to divide and conquer.
I think there are outside forces working against Eb's emotional well-being. I speculated before that Mouse's siblings may be in play against Eb. Then there are the outside forces that recently went up against Eb. Peace Talks has that going up against Outsiders leaves a mark on ones psyche except if you are a starborn. It could be that Eb's fight against the cornerhounds left him open to further emotional conflict. I think the black council worked indirectly to divide Harry from Eb.
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I think Eb is afraid. Everybody knows something is coming and what. Except Harry. And nobody is talking. And Harry himself has some anger issues. And this has something to do with Eb's wife, I just don't understand what yet.
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I think Eb is afraid. Everybody knows something is coming and what. Except Harry. And nobody is talking. And Harry himself has some anger issues. And this has something to do with Eb's wife, I just don't understand what yet.
Oh shades of "Dune.."
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““Sure,” River said. “But I taught him. And he’s just about gotten to the end of his path.” He looked uncomfortable. “Lot of the wizards who matter are near the end. Hanging on hard.””
— Peace Talks (Dresden Files Book 16) by Jim Butcher
https://a.co/5qcsjZa
I think this is a clear indication that Eb is reaching the end of his path. My personal feeling is that the black staff is getting to him and he’s hanging on because he can’t trust anyone else to take it up.
I guess it could be a reference members of the senior council in general. Ancient Mai, or Martha Liberty in particular.
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It does make you wonder if a lot of Council talent was culled in the Kemmler wars, followed by the Dresden wars, leaving only the most powerful (and by default aged) wizards capable of surviving. Was it all strategy to weaken them across a century in preparation for the BAT events?
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Good point. Aside from Morgan how many wizards have ween seen between 50 and 150 yards old
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Luccio is the closest we know to that range, I think. It's hard to place Steed's age, though.
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I guess it could be a reference members of the senior council in general. Ancient Mai, or Martha Liberty in particular.
I think it's most of the Senior Council - Eb, the Merlin, Listens-to-Wind, Ancient Mai, the Gatekeeper at least.
Eb and the Merlin are the same age, so if Eb is fading, the Merlin should be too. River Shoulders seems to imply L-t-W's time is running out. Ancient Mai is even older. The Gatekeeper is way older and has presumably been 'cheating' via time dilation and stuff... maybe trying to hang on long enough for a replacement Starborn to be ready to take over the role?
Luccio is the closest we know to that range, I think. It's hard to place Steed's age, though.
Luccio is a bit over 200; she was growing up at the time of the War of 1812.
Cristos might not be that much older; he was suspiciously young for the Senior Council, shouldn't really have been considered in normal circumstances, and LaFortier was 279 (Eb and the Merlin are around 300) - so Cristos is probably in the lower half of his 200s.
But yeah, I don't think we have ages actually stated for any wizards in the 50-150 range. I'd kind of think the 'old guard' pre-Vampire-War Wardens (e.g. Steed/Chandler and Yoshimo) are largely in that age range, but we don't know.
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Yoshimo was one of the baby wardens in DB, she's younger than Harry.
Chandler is the only named wizard I can think of that might be closer to the 50-150 range than Luccio (excluding Harry), but mostly because we don't have a firm age for him. Ancient Mai has a messenger apprentice, but we don't really have much on him.
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He gets old. Sometimes dementia can cause anger and agression
He is old. He is also afraid because the council wants to boot Harry out and Harry being Harry really making the council's job easy. When EB try to persuade Harry to be in the straight and narrow, Harry defy him. More than that, Harry throw all of EB bad choices in his face.
Wizardkind in general are prideful creatures and the older they are the more prideful and stubborn they become. Paranoid too.
Do you think all of the above is enough to explain why EB acted the way he did in PT?
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I think Morgan is the exception that proves the rule. I think he was approaching 100 wasn’t he?
But he was tough as hell and more paranoid than all the rest.
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There does seem to be a foreshadowing for the "changing of the guard" if you will. Suddenly older wizards of the Senior Council were old but very powerful, suddenly they seem fragile. Rivershoulders pointed out to Harry that Listens to Wind didn't have long for this world. I will cry
when he leaves, he is one of my favorites. If any of you saw the movie "Little Big Man," one of the stars was a Native American actor named Chief Dan George, he was elderly, strong, and came off as very wise. When I read about Listens to Wind, that is who I picture.
"Changing of the guard" But to whom? Other than Klaus the Toy maker and a few of the older wardens, only one of whom we know by name, there's not a lot of characters we know. I can't remember the older warden's name but it was mentioned in Turn Coat, Swenson or something similar. Maybe Luccio might in line for a promotion to the Senior Council.
Chief Dan George was also in the Clint Eastwood movie, "The Outlaw Josie Wales." He was a very good actor. I didn't picture Listens to Wind looking like him, but I always heard his voice whenever I read LTW's dialog.
I think there are outside forces working against Eb's emotional well-being. I speculated before that Mouse's siblings may be in play against Eb. Then there are the outside forces that recently went up against Eb. Peace Talks has that going up against Outsiders leaves a mark on ones psyche except if you are a starborn. It could be that Eb's fight against the cornerhounds left him open to further emotional conflict. I think the black council worked indirectly to divide Harry from Eb.
Yea, Eb got buried under the cornerhounds. Something as simple as that might have made him vulnerable to becoming nemfected. There's one Walker we haven't seen yet. It may be able to disguise itself to look like another Outsider or simply remain invisible. So Eb's already huge anger issues with the Red Court get dialed up to eleven. He even tries to save Harry by using lethal magic against him. Eb could be losing it, but it could be that he was pushed into losing control.
It does make you wonder if a lot of Council talent was culled in the Kemmler wars, followed by the Dresden wars, leaving only the most powerful (and by default aged) wizards capable of surviving. Was it all strategy to weaken them across a century in preparation for the BAT events?
That makes sense. Someone like Cowl might think like that.
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Another thing that could be effecting Eb is the use of the Black Staff over time.
From changes we know it pulses with a black energy. Also, if it is Mother Winter's walking stick, we can assume that it is not meant for humans. EB to me is showing impulse control similar to Harry ever since take up the winter mantle.
Anyone agree?
I do! It's clear that Ebenezer and Harry are foils for each other, so the parallels make sense, as do the different choices. I also think that the Blackstaff influence, combined with the Peabody damage, might make it increasingly difficult for Ebenezer to control his emotions.
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He is old. He is also afraid because the council wants to boot Harry out and Harry being Harry really making the council's job easy. When EB try to persuade Harry to be in the straight and narrow, Harry defy him. More than that, Harry throw all of EB bad choices in his face.
Wizardkind in general are prideful creatures and the older they are the more prideful and stubborn they become. Paranoid too.
Do you think all of the above is enough to explain why EB acted the way he did in PT?
He has been angry at Harry for not following his lead in the past most notably in changes and at that time they only communicated via stones and he could not have used direct violence.
So it is in character but the lack of control is accelerated and already demonstrated in the sample chapters. So nothing out of character but I do think the brakes are getting weaker. That can also happen when you get old.
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Eb is certainly a bossy guy, but this uncontrollable rage against the white court seems new and deux ex machina in my opinion. We know He shouldn't be having such rage issues because:
1. When Harry soulgazed him he saw a big steady oak, not something that readily loses itself to rages and angers.
2. One of the key things he taught Harry was how to deal with his anger, so the idea that he is such a total fail at it here is out of character
3. He was trusted by the previous black staff wielder enough to be given the blackstaff. You don't give permission to kill at will to someone who has those kind of rage issues.
4. He obviously didn't have these rage issues when he sat down at a friggin dinner party with his daughter, Papa Raith, and a member of the red court. Sure, he said no to their proposal, but he was polite and his own friggin daughter thought there was a chance he would say yes. If he had had these issues then there would have been no way she would have even tried inviting him to that dinner.
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Harry is letting Thomas around Maggie unsupervised.
Y'know, the girl named for Eb's own daughter?
Thomas is defiant and comfortable in Harry's home.
I think Eb's supposed to have been *stewing* about Thomas and whatever "hold" he had on Harry. He may have had a similar confrontation with his Maggie, and she chose Papa Raith. Now here's Harry doing the same.
From Eb's perspective: Harry has, in this book and Changes, tossed in his face a "Let the world burn, then!" attitude when it comes to family. His defiant comments about the foster system initially would have seemed to be purely about his daughter. Eb, an old and wise man who cares deeply about Harry, realizes that Harry is including Thomas, *similarly abandoned by their shared mother*, under that defensive blind spot. Harry will choose Thomas over the Council, and the consequences be damned.
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"Changing of the guard" But to whom?
I made a similar point. One thing is that maybe the Council won't be a gerontocracy anymore. Rashid has said that Harry will challenge the Council. Cristos has already laid the groundwork for ignoring the tradition of selecting the Senior Council on a gerotocratic basis. We've been repeatedly told that the young vastly outnumber the old because of the explosive population growth of the last century. A lot of those kids end up as warlocks. How many of them have ended up on the Council? The young might take over the Council after having been drafted into a war they were forced to play defense in.
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Eb is certainly a bossy guy, but this uncontrollable rage against the white court seems new and deux ex machina in my opinion. We know He shouldn't be having such rage issues because:
1. When Harry soulgazed him he saw a big steady oak, not something that readily loses itself to rages and angers.
2. One of the key things he taught Harry was how to deal with his anger, so the idea that he is such a total fail at it here is out of character
3. He was trusted by the previous black staff wielder enough to be given the blackstaff. You don't give permission to kill at will to someone who has those kind of rage issues.
4. He obviously didn't have these rage issues when he sat down at a friggin dinner party with his daughter, Papa Raith, and a member of the red court. Sure, he said no to their proposal, but he was polite and his own friggin daughter thought there was a chance he would say yes. If he had had these issues then there would have been no way she would have even tried inviting him to that dinner.
OK, but what does it suggest to you if it isn't a lazy use of deux ex machina by the author? Ebenezer's age leading to an onset of dementia could be a natural explanation for his behavior. Anger issues and sometimes extreme anger can be a part of this illness. I've personally seen this kind of thing in action and it's a sad and depressing thing to witness. Perhaps some of the people on this forum have had a similar experience. More importantly, it fits with the theme of the older members of the Senior Council hanging on because they know a storm is coming and they believe they are the only ones qualified to deal with it, when in fact they may no longer be up for the job.
However, there is another explanation which also fits with a major plot element in the larger story. Alarm bells should go off when we see a character who is acting against their nature. It's one of the signs that they are no longer themselves and have been nemfected.
If either of these possibilities are correct then Ebenzer McCoy is no longer fit to wield the Blackstaff. It's also a clue that Eb is nearing the end of his journey and someone else will have to carry the Blackstaff. You know, it might not be something that the White Council bestows upon Harry as much it's something Harry picks up when Eb falls in battle. At that point the Council would have a choice. They could let the Winter Knight; who is no longer a member of the White Council, use the blackstaff as he sees fit or as Mab sees fit, or return him to his position on the Council, allow him to leave the Wardens; because Harry never wanted to be one in the first place, and become the new Blackstaff of the White Council. This would also prevent Harry from returning the staff to its original owner.
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We also don't know much about the war that has been going on between the WC and the Fomor. I think there was a WOJ that the fomor were pressing the WC in Europe. Eb would have been at the forefront of a lot of those battles. He may be burnt out from all the fighting the WC has been doing since Harry took out the Reds. Harry mentions that Eb looks old and tired. Some of his temper may be from overwork, especially if he had to keep using the blackstaff.
Or another maybe Eb recently found out that his old friend Simon is now running around calling himself Cowl and trying to destabilize the world. Eb does seem to be fixated on betrayal in this book.
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OK, but what does it suggest to you if it isn't a lazy use of deux ex machina by the author? Ebenezer's age leading to an onset of dementia could be a natural explanation for his behavior. Anger issues and sometimes extreme anger can be a part of this illness. I've personally seen this kind of thing in action and it's a sad and depressing thing to witness. Perhaps some of the people on this forum have had a similar experience. More importantly, it fits with the theme of the older members of the Senior Council hanging on because they know a storm is coming and they believe they are the only ones qualified to deal with it, when in fact they may no longer be up for the job.
However, there is another explanation which also fits with a major plot element in the larger story. Alarm bells should go off when we see a character who is acting against their nature. It's one of the signs that they are no longer themselves and have been nemfected.
If either of these possibilities are correct then Ebenzer McCoy is no longer fit to wield the Blackstaff. It's also a clue that Eb is nearing the end of his journey and someone else will have to carry the Blackstaff. You know, it might not be something that the White Council bestows upon Harry as much it's something Harry picks up when Eb falls in battle. At that point the Council would have a choice. They could let the Winter Knight; who is no longer a member of the White Council, use the blackstaff as he sees fit or as Mab sees fit, or return him to his position on the Council, allow him to leave the Wardens; because Harry never wanted to be one in the first place, and become the new Blackstaff of the White Council. This would also prevent Harry from returning the staff to its original owner.
To piggyback off this, we can also draw similarities between the last fight with Eb, and Harry's fight with Cat Sith from Cold Days. In Cold Days, when Cat Sith is himself he isn't seen. He takes down the enemy and drags them off to die horribly and silently. When he's been Nemfected, he's a drama queen.He puts up a post-it saying "look behind you" so he can make a dramatic entrance. We see similar from Eb in Peace Talks. Instead of the "KABOOM YOU'RE DEAD!" style of Blackstaffery, we see him confront Dresden from atop a floating rock. Granted, confronting Harry instead of killing him is something I could understand, given the levels of protectiveness we've seen from him. But... a floating rock? Really? Maybe it was faster than running? I don't know. But, why not eliminate the horrible monster vampires before confronting Harry and asking for answers? That seems more his style from what we've seen. And, speaking from a meta perspective, it would have driven a wedge between the two of them harder than anything that will come out of what we were given.What was in the book comes off - to me, at least - as the same vein of drama queen-hood we see from Cat Sith.
But than, I'm a paranoid lunatic who's been wondering when Murphy would turn on Harry ever since that dream in Skin Game. I could be seeing connections where there aren't any.
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Eb was always short tempered, it helped power his magic. Eb was training Maggie Snr as his replacement as Blackstaff, she ran away and retirement from that role had to be delayed, he was then affected by Peabody whose influence was to the nudge Senior Council to be more like themselves, the Merlin more cautious, Eb even more shorter tempered, and subject to his prejudices, subject to the Blackstaff’s influence and older, suffering from the frailties of old age including Dementia. It all accumulates.
Then there is the Hubris. He has pretty much won every battle at this point otherwise he would be dead, he knows best, his continued existence is proof of it and he can break the Laws of Magic with impunity. Harry beating him is as bad a shock as finding out Thomas is his grandson.
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To piggyback off this, we can also draw similarities between the last fight with Eb, and Harry's fight with Cat Sith from Cold Days. In Cold Days, when Cat Sith is himself he isn't seen. He takes down the enemy and drags them off to die horribly and silently. When he's been Nemfected, he's a drama queen.He puts up a post-it saying "look behind you" so he can make a dramatic entrance. We see similar from Eb in Peace Talks. Instead of the "KABOOM YOU'RE DEAD!" style of Blackstaffery, we see him confront Dresden from atop a floating rock. Granted, confronting Harry instead of killing him is something I could understand, given the levels of protectiveness we've seen from him. But... a floating rock? Really? Maybe it was faster than running? I don't know. But, why not eliminate the horrible monster vampires before confronting Harry and asking for answers? That seems more his style from what we've seen. And, speaking from a meta perspective, it would have driven a wedge between the two of them harder than anything that will come out of what we were given.What was in the book comes off - to me, at least - as the same vein of drama queen-hood we see from Cat Sith.
But than, I'm a paranoid lunatic who's been wondering when Murphy would turn on Harry ever since that dream in Skin Game. I could be seeing connections where there aren't any.
I think the discrepancy here is as simple as Eb not wanting to kill Harry, or even hurt him too badly. There’s a big difference between executing vampires and their goons, and fighting his own grandson (and really, more like fighting to get by his grandson while setting his sights on a different target).
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Eb was always short tempered, it helped power his magic. Eb was training Maggie Snr as his replacement as Blackstaff, she ran away and retirement from that role had to be delayed, he was then affected by Peabody whose influence was to the nudge Senior Council to be more like themselves, the Merlin more cautious, Eb even more shorter tempered, and subject to his prejudices, subject to the Blackstaff’s influence and older, suffering from the frailties of old age including Dementia. It all accumulates.
Then there is the Hubris. He has pretty much won every battle at this point otherwise he would be dead, he knows best, his continued existence is proof of it and he can break the Laws of Magic with impunity. Harry beating him is as bad a shock as finding out Thomas is his grandson.
What doesn't ring true, and I think even Harry after the fight hinted at it. Control, Eb is out of control.. The reason Eb got the job of Blackstaff in the first place I believe is his judgement, and with that judgement comes control.. You cannot let a guy wield a staff of unlimited black magical powers if he lacked self control.. Something is very wrong with Eb, call it dementia or he really is infected with Nemesis, but he is out of control, something he never has been. Think back to when we saw him use the staff in Changes, that wasn't a pissed off out of control old man even though a lot was on the line, as much as in Peace Talks. He may have a personal vendetta against the White Court Vamps, but he let the fight get personal, thus it got out of control.
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Good point. Aside from Morgan how many wizards have ween seen between 50 and 150 yards old
Cristos might be. It was kind of lampshaded that he didn't actually come to the position by seniority, but political brinkmanship.