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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on July 11, 2020, 05:29:28 AM

Title: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 11, 2020, 05:29:28 AM
Potential spoilers follow here.

I was thinking the other day about the blurb of Battle Ground and a few things occured to me.

I feel that the end of Peace Talks will involve Harry thinking he has sorted out his issues, a victory of sorts if you like. He will have saved Thomas, himself, everyone and maybe exposed the bad guys openly. And they will be MEGA pissed off. Which causes them to try the less subtle way i.e. wiping out Harry and Chicago or whatever. And Harry will realize his massive miscalculation and realize there is an impending army coming to destroy everyone he loves. That will be the cliff hanger - a Titan and her army bearing down on his city and everything he holds dear.

But why is it that Harry specifically has to kill this Titan. Why him? If this thing is so ridiculously powerful where are the other guardians, where is the White Council, where is...Mab?

Because if (and this isn't yet known) the Last Titan and the Fomor Empress are one and the same (likely), why isn't Mab or Titania or both fighting this being?

Why isn't Ebenezar and the Merlin and LtW etc not responsible for killing this being?

The only logical conclusion is they are not available. Perhaps Winter and Summer alike are besieged. Perhaps Titania elects not to help (in her every more mysterious way). Perhaps the Gates come under major assault. Perhaps Mab is crippled somehow.

Maybe the White Council tries to help but is scattered to the wind. Maybe it's a divide and conquer thing.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on July 11, 2020, 07:48:10 AM
Harry's goal might not be just to kill the Titan but to prevent the battle from destroying Chicago. If Mab and the Senior Council throw down with another being on roughly Mab's level, there's going to be a lot of collateral damage.

Eb's force blasts were messing up stone buildings weighing thousands of tons in Chichen Itza, IIRC. Modern buildings are way more fragile. And Eb is just one member of the Senior Council. Mab messes up the weather just by being on the mortal world... if she actually were throwing lots of power around...

An outright fight with Mab-level beings on both sides IMO could easily destroy the entire city.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 11, 2020, 08:04:15 AM
Because Harry has the tools to kill or wound a Titan following Skin Game. If you note the book cover,  that isn’t a knob that his wizards staff has on the end, and on Demonreach he has the capacity to “take below” the most powerful of entities as well.

Harry is being set up by Uriel, Mab and Vadderung to deal with the Nemesis agents behind the lines where their natures constrain them from dealing with them. The White Council as currently constituted are near useless for this, the Grey Council are not, expect them to come to the fore.

Expect Harry (gods help us) to be the surgical strike, making lots of Clash of the Titans references, as the Apocalypse is not yet here.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 11, 2020, 10:55:23 AM
Because Harry has the tools to kill or wound a Titan following Skin Game. If you note the book cover,  that isn’t a knob that his wizards staff has on the end, and on Demonreach he has the capacity to “take below” the most powerful of entities as well.

Harry is being set up by Uriel, Mab and Vadderung to deal with the Nemesis agents behind the lines where their natures constrain them from dealing with them. The White Council as currently constituted are near useless for this, the Grey Council are not, expect them to come to the fore.

Expect Harry (gods help us) to be the surgical strike, making lots of Clash of the Titans references, as the Apocalypse is not yet here.

You took the words right off my fingers.  Harry goes because he is the only one who can.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 11, 2020, 01:12:10 PM
I really hope we get to see Harry use Demonreach to imprison for the first time.

He can get the blood of a Titan using the spear and use the summoning circle at Demonreach and the blood to bring it to Demonreach and take them below. I doubt anyone else other than a another major entity could injure a Titan or constrain them. Harry is the only mortal who can do both.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 11, 2020, 01:23:06 PM
I get that Harry ends up being the only one who can. I am more interested in the why. This thing is likely stronger than Mab or Titania. But Eb is the Council's hitman. So why not use him? See where I am going with this? I think a lot of people will be tied up with other problems or dead.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 11, 2020, 02:31:46 PM
I get that Harry ends up being the only one who can. I am more interested in the why. This thing is likely stronger than Mab or Titania. But Eb is the Council's hitman. So why not use him? See where I am going with this? I think a lot of people will be tied up with other problems or dead.

  It does have a lot to do with the fact that he is the Warden of Demonreach.   I believe a Titan is immortal, they were regarded as gods at one time.  If I remember my Greek mythology correctly, and I just checked Bulfinch's Mythology, they were finally imprisoned in a deep pit by Zeus wielding thunderbolts.   There is only one place equipped to imprison the likes of a Titan outside of Hades, and that is Demonreach, so enter Harry.  I wouldn't be shocked if he is forced to use the power from the ley lines that run under it in the end.  The ones that Rashid warned him about not using because he didn't have the knowledge or skill yet back in Turn Coat.  Well, perhaps in that year he lived on the island he got that knowledge?
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 11, 2020, 05:40:07 PM
Harry might have to, to power the summoning for something like a Titan. The other source of power at his disposal are the artifacts, he will have to use one or the other, and as the blood is on the spear he would be best using those, the blood would amplify the summoning.

The artifacts have been various things in history and mythology, I would bet that the spear is actually Zeus thunderbolt. Remember that was Nicky’s true target, the Grail his cup, etc, etc. So Harry wielding a godly thunderbolt to put a Titan into a deep pit is not such a stretch. He has his huge staff kinetic energy spell to fling it like a god

Doing something like that though would effectively be a declaration that he is a nuclear power to the rest of the supernatural world, more powerful singularly than the White Council collectively.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on July 11, 2020, 06:01:10 PM
Doing something like that though would effectively be a declaration that he is a nuclear power to the rest of the supernatural world, more powerful singularly than the White Council collectively.

Well, Harry is still a member of the White Council, so whatever he does may get credited to the White Council and/or Winter to some degree.

But being the Warden of Demonreach gives Harry absolutely incredible destructive power (given that he can release the prisoners). Oaths are pretty binding to supernatural beings: if Harry got some ancient horror to take an oath in exchange for releasing it...

But Harry's not going to actually use that power (before the BAT), it would be far too destructive/too much collateral damage.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 11, 2020, 08:30:44 PM
The Merlin has plans to throw Harry out of the White Council, and they generally don’t know his relationship to Demonreach or his super weapon arsenal, or his access to soul fire (likely needed to use the weapons), or his capability to lead the Wild Hunt.

Terribly funny if they throw him out and he establishes himself as a separate Baron of Demonreach under the Accords, and they threaten him in breach of the Accords and he points out he on his own now outclasses the entire White Council, and would anybody like to join him? Half the senior Council are North America, and the majority of the Wardens look to Harry now, as do the minor practitioners of the Paranet so the Merlin could be left with Christos and Ancient Mai, the old guard and a lot of wizards ill suited to combat but are likely to jump ship to whoever can keep them safe.

The Merlin wouldn’t consider the young wardens or Paranetters of having any consequence, a bad miscalculation, on top of his lack of knowledge as regards Demonreach his super weapons and his association with Vadderung (Odin taught the original Merlin magic), Uriel, Hades even the Erlking etc, they merely think he is Mabs creature.


Harry really can’t release the prisoners, they may be Nemfected and their word untrustworthy.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Avernite on July 11, 2020, 09:41:52 PM
My thought:

Mab and Titania have a purpose. Their purpose is to guard the Outer Gates or guard reality from Mab. Their purpose is not 'continue eternal feuds with the Fomor', they have agents and vassals for that.

I think Mab and Titania will send the necessary resources to deal with this Titan, if indeed she's Fomor. Harry is one of those resources. I'd expect him to have Molly, Sarissa, Lea, Gruff or Fix along with him (maybe even 2 or 3), as well as maybe sundry Fae or Changelings as footsoldiers. He's done it before when he 'hijacked' the Wild Hunt, after all.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 11, 2020, 11:23:53 PM
Avernite - Yes, that is the true purpose of Faerie. Doesn't mean they don't have feuds and wars and other enemies. And you're assuming the Fomor are not connected to the Outsiders in some way. There is lots of supporting hints about the connections, and we know during this summit that Outsiders are summoned. And I think you fail to consider the consequences for Faerie should this Titaness succeed. She intends to reshape the mortal landscape. For a bunch of creatures who rely on mortals, you'd think they might be wary of that. Not to mention if she ends up freeing Outsiders/Old Ones etc. Also, when you talk of resources you're assuming Harry can actually kill a Titan. Unless it's on Halloween or a similar conjunction it isn't possible (as far as we know). But then there is the small matter of actually damaging her. She might not be so vulnerable to mortal weapons as the foes Harry has previously faced. Read her description again - she's above anything he's fought before. So the question become why wouldn't one or more of the Queens take the field to lead their forces? A Titan isn't a minor inconvenience. It's a major-league threat. Which means if they don't show they actively don't care for the loss of human life and reshaping of the world (which we know they do...to a point), or they are otherwise obstructed/distracted. My guess is an assault on the Outer Gates for Mab and Titania just won't show...which suggests certain things about her character and motives. There is a whole theory on Titania which makes sense about this.

Conspiracy Theorist - We don't actually know it's the Merlin who wishes to throw Harry out. It could just as easily be Cristos or even Mai. All the Senior Council know of his relationship to Demonreach, and are basically aware of what that means. I suspect other senior wizards would have similar knowledge. Especially some Wardens or those mysterious thugs working for Cristos. I assume by "super weapon arsenal" you are referring to his weapons of Christ? Also I can tell you now you don't need Soulfire to use them - why would Nic want them if he couldn't use them? The only thing needed is human will.

If Dresden did establish himself as a Freeholding Lord he would be playing right into the hands of the Black Council. Civil War is to be avoided at this stage, the Council is not yet the evil oppressor that needs to be opposed (although I suspect that is where the story will go assuming it survives the next conflict). I don't know where you are getting the idea that the Merlin doesn't know about what Demonreach is...it has been confirmed that the Senior Council all know about it and what it does. It is the White Council at large who is mostly unaware. And I am sure the Senior Council each know a bit about Harry's allies. At least two of them specialize in information gathering (Martha Liberty and Mai), Rashid seems to have more on the ball than most so it's safe to say he is at least aware of these events (especially as he seems to keep an eye on Dresden), if Cristos is black council I would expect him to have his own special resources in regards to information, Ebenezar knows definitely about Vadderung, the Merlin is at the top of an information gathering organisation (and is the most powerful wizard on the planet) so I wouldn't be surprised if he had the gist of what Harry has been up to. LtW is the only one I am not sure of but time will tell there. Harry won't release any of the creatures unless he is tricked or is somehow manipulated/forced to. Nemfection aside, they are just mean and horrible and all it would do is cause pain and misery to a whole bunch of people. And considering beings of the Naagloshii level are the least dangerous beings in there...it gives you an idea of just how bad that would be. And I think Dresden hasn't even found the inmate(s) in maximum security yet.

I highly doubt the spear is Zeus' thunderbolt. It's most likely his staff with the Spear of Destiny (or Spear of Longinus) attached as he literally just picked it up last book. As a second choice I would say it is Gungnir (Odin's spear) because of his relationship to Odin.

Mira - Yes, you are largely correct. They were imprisoned in the deepest and most terrible pit in the Greek Underworld, known as Tartarus. This was after the Olympian Gods defeated them in battle. Zeus' thunderbolt supposedly blew the top off their base of Mount Othyrs. But it took the combined might of Zeus, Poseidon and Hades to defeat their father Cronus/Kronos. Which puts in perspective just how strong these Titans are.

I can see how Harry might achieve it, but he still has to get the Titan to Demonreach. Which might not be so easy. Not to mention that his job is to kill the Titan, not imprison. I agree that I think when Harry finally does end up imprisoning whoever he will end up tapping that well of power.

Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Walter the skull on July 12, 2020, 12:31:23 AM
Yuillegan:  I agree that the Titan is the Fomor queen.  I also kind of wonder if Vaderung is also Zues?  He keeps saying that people have many mantles.  We know the fairy queens may be Hecate, Kringle is part of Winter, I don't think it's that far fetched to think that he may have a place in the Greek pantheon too. 
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 12, 2020, 12:40:04 AM
It's certainly possible.

In literary terms Odin is generally associated with Mecury/Hermes who was associated with Thoth.

But it's Jim's world so who knows?

But I definitely think he has more masks and reveals.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 12, 2020, 12:58:30 AM
Quote

I can see how Harry might achieve it, but he still has to get the Titan to Demonreach. Which might not be so easy. Not to mention that his job is to kill the Titan, not imprison. I agree that I think when Harry finally does end up imprisoning whoever he will end up tapping that well of power.

I don't think she can be killed, if Zeus couldn't do it, I don't think we can expect Harry to be able to.
However  he gained an arsenal of very dangerous weapons in Skin Game.  Drawing on he primal power of the ley line that runs under Demonreach he might be able to disable her or trick her somehow into a confrontation on the island, there with the help of Alfred, imprison her in one of the deepest holes.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 12, 2020, 01:20:13 AM
Demonreach has a huge summoning circle, so it can drag a potential prisoner there if Harry has a true name or blood to make the connection and not all the senior council know Harry’s relation with Demonreach, Eb and Listens know for certain, the others may know of  Demonreach’s true purpose but not realise Harry took it as a Sanctum.

Christos doesn’t have the clout without the Merlin to get Harry thrown out, Harry has consistently undercut the Merlin’s authority, ended the war with the Ramps in utter finality overshadowing the Merlin’s counter attack and has custody of Excalibur, that’s got to sting. Christos may have gone  Wormtongue on the Merlin to encourage it.

Nick wanted the spearhead, he didn’t want the rest of the items but to use them properly together as a ritual would likely require soul fire, why? Because Harry has been given it, its a Checkov’s gun
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 12, 2020, 05:36:10 AM

If Christos is alive, I think he may be the guy Thomas was sent to assassinate.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 12, 2020, 06:54:40 AM
This is the blurb for Battle Ground:
(click to show/hide)

I have bolded the important bits. The main thing to note is that it is Harry's mission to kill the Titan. Who says Zeus couldn't kill the Titans? Perhaps he chose not to. The myths seem to indicate he spared the female Titans as they did not participate in the war. So who says he even tried? In the original greek sense of the word, Immortals were literally unkillable. You couldn't destroy them any more than you could kill gravity or time. They represented abstract power. In the Dresden Files it turns out their are certain times and places that they are able to be killed called conjunctions. So perhaps Harry can do it if he can get the Titan into the right conjunction. But maybe not. I suspect Jim will take away Harry's Halloween advantage.

Conspiracy Theorist - Even the Merlin doesn't have the power to throw Harry out on his own. It requires a full vote without quorum. Even if it was just the Senior Council Harry probably has enough votes to stay. And as Ebenezer says in chapter 3, Cristos is throwing around a lot of orders these days. And you forget, he rounded up many young wardens at the end of Changes. He commands roughly a third of the Council on his own...which is more than probably any other member other than Langtry. I think you completely underestimate his influence and power to be honest. Cristos isn't Wormtongue. Cristos put himself on the Council above more senior wizards. Whether he organised it or he is merely a pawn of the Black Council, he benefited from the death of his mentor (LaFortier). He is dangerous and powerful and well connected. Also he distinguished himself in battle with a Rakshasa (no minor feat). Cristos likely intends to be the next Merlin (should the Council survive that long).

And that whole thing about Soulfire...is speculation. It could be a chekhov's gun. But we don't know that. It hasn't been stated or hinted otherwise. Besides, the weapons contain their own energy. Soulfire allows Harry to do more with his magic. Be more of what he is. Give his spells more reality. But where does it indicate that Nicodemus wanted the other artefacts of the Christ? Harry surmises that his main goal was the knife but his stated one was the grail. I am sure Nic could do a whole lot of damage just with one. Look what he did with the fake shroud.

Mira - we know that the person he was sent to assassinate is
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 12, 2020, 12:56:12 PM
Quote
I have bolded the important bits. The main thing to note is that it is Harry's mission to kill the Titan. Who says Zeus couldn't kill the Titans?

That may be Harry's mission, but that doesn't mean that he can.  Zeus also transformed some Titans.
Jim also takes myths and makes them his own, so perhaps Harry will find a way with the tools he has.
Let's not forget Zeus was a god, Harry isn't, there is a huge power difference.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 12, 2020, 03:03:14 PM
Obviously, hence the dilemma. All good stories have a problem. This is Harry's to solve.

Which Titan did Zeus transform?

Indeed, Jim will do whatever he will do. But we can guess! I suspect Harry has at least some of the necessary tools otherwise there'd be no point to the story if he couldn't do it. But what they are is the mystery.

Indeed, the power difference is huge. But remember that WOJ about mortals being more of a threat to Mab than some villains/monsters. It's not a major chance of success, but it isn't zero either. It's about exploiting the weaknesses of your opponent. Perhaps Zeus can't kill other immortals. Perhaps killing a Titan would mess with nature. But clearly Harry has to, maybe it isn't as easy to lock up an angry Titan with an army as just try and kill her.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Paviel on July 12, 2020, 03:20:57 PM
Quote
But it took the combined might of Zeus, Poseidon and Hades to defeat their father Cronus/Kronos. Which puts in perspective just how strong these Titans are.

Well, Harry already has one thing in common with Zeus: He has gestated a spirit of intellect in his head. Maybe he'll become more like Zeus in other ways too.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 12, 2020, 04:06:37 PM
Well, Harry already has one thing in common with Zeus: He has gestated a spirit of intellect in his head. Maybe he'll become more like Zeus in other ways too.

  There is one way I can think of that Harry knows how to do that could generate enough power to kill a Titan, but at great cost.  Darkhallow, it would give him god like powers, take out the Titian but a lot of other people with her.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 12, 2020, 05:59:48 PM
Do we know the identity of the Titan, of the six Titanides my money is on Themis.

From Wikipedia “When Themis is disregarded, Nemesis brings just and wrathful retribution; ”

Sounds like a Nemfected Titan to me. Of course if it is Themis, she would be Mab’s granny, which would be interesting, Mab has ordered Harry to kill her daughter, now he has to take on her granny? What a family!

Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on July 12, 2020, 09:42:28 PM
I don't necessarily see the Titan = Fomor connection.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 12, 2020, 10:37:27 PM
Vultur, it's based on a theory.

1. The Fomor are ruled by an Empress. There are several kings and lords under her.
2. The Fomor have requested the Peace Talks summit, but obviously it's the same thing as the Red Court in that any talk of armistice is itself a distraction for an assault. The White Council are not dictating from a position of strength.
3. There is a strong Black Council connection with the Fomor.
4. When the Peace Talks are revealed for what they are/disrupted (as we know precedes Battle Ground) the Last Titan emerges with an army to take Chicago and then reshape the world.
5. The Fomor (natural) were cousins of the Jotun and intermarried with the Fae, but now they are the remnants of all the exiles of nations that border the sea (fallen gods, dark beings of light, giants) all under the banner of the Fomor.

The obvious choice for the army is the Fomor, which would likely be led by their mysterious Empress. So many (like myself) have concluded that the Empress is the Last Titan. She doesn't have to be a "native" Fomor to be a Fomor as they are now a mixed bag. And she is certainly strong enough to rule them. The Last Titan sounds strong enough to be a Freeholding Lord in her own right.

Conspiracy THeorist - No one yet knows. Top guesses are Gaia and Tethys (goddess of the waters - the fomor water connection). But Themis is as good as any.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Snark Knight on July 13, 2020, 02:49:20 AM
The only logical conclusion is they are not available. Perhaps Winter and Summer alike are besieged. Perhaps Titania elects not to help (in her every more mysterious way). Perhaps the Gates come under major assault. Perhaps Mab is crippled somehow.

Maybe the White Council tries to help but is scattered to the wind. Maybe it's a divide and conquer thing.

The unavailability could be political rather than tactical. Maybe something about the outcome of Peace Talks gives the Empress a legally justified cause under the Accords to declare war on Chicago. That would make it politically untenable for the Council to do anything, and literally impossible for the Fae to act if it would violate the Accords they agreed to.

The city is Marcone's territory, and he's the host of the meeting. If he's held responsible for something happening to a Fomor VIP, that could be cassus belli. Or maybe the Black Council are looking to set him up the same way they did Harry in Grave Peril - force him into a situation where he has to choose between provoking a war or crossing a line they know he won't. ('No kids'?)

But Harry can act independently of the Council on the grounds that he lives there and he's defending his home. And if they go through with kicking him out (temporarily, Christmas Eve implies), it's a degree more freedom at least.

As for Mab, she's only responsible for what she orders her Knight to do. If he chooses to get into fights on his own, he's not getting backup, but she's not going to stop him either.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on July 13, 2020, 05:32:04 AM
Half the senior Council are North America, and the majority of the Wardens look to Harry now, as do the minor practitioners of the Paranet

I don't think that's necessarily true any longer.  The White Council is supposed to have continued fighting; the Fomor of course, after Harry took care of the Red Court.  From their perspective Harry disappears when they're attacked by another and new major enemy.  Even after Harry is reported to be alive he doesn't come back to help the Council.  Instead Harry's become associated with another scary major power; and while not an enemy, Winter isn't exactly anyone's friend either.  Plus, being the Winter Knight means everyone knows Harry has received a major power upgrade and that most Winter Knights are or become monsters in their own right.  While I don't think the younger wardens are in league with Merlin or Cristos, I would bet many of them have doubts about Harry.

I think Harry is in a position that he will have to demonstrate who he really is in order to regain his former position of trust with the younger wardens.  However, that may be somewhat easier said than done, at least judging by the short scene in the trailer where Warden Ramirez questions Harry's loyalty.  If Carlos starts to distrust Harry, you can bet any other wardens Ramirez is in close contact with will soon know about it.

The members of the Paranet are probably more trusting of Harry than most members of the White Council; maybe, but maybe not.  At this point I think a lot of their opinion might depend on Butters and what he's been telling his Paranet contacts after the events in Skin Game.  Many of them may have become as distrusting of Harry as Butters had become.  They were the ones who had been taking losses while Harry was stuck on Demonreach.  My guess is only some of them trust Harry now.  Plus, the whole Winter Knight thing scares a lot of people.  Again, I think Harry will have to win back some people's trust.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on July 13, 2020, 06:42:31 AM
SK - Could be that it is political. I can't really seeing the Council just allowing a slaughter of human life though...but it would be interesting if they had to choose between their mission and the Accords. I can definitely see Cristos arguing against defending Chicago. Mab would never violate her own Accords.

The problem is that Harry is representing one or both groups, and so is acting as proxy. While it's possible he is going all lone wolf, I think the Council and/or Mab would stop him from interfering. Mab would hardly need to try as I suspect him disobeying her would rob him of his mantle and paralyze him. In theory, Harry could act independently of the Council. In practice (especially considering the political maneuvering against him) he likely would give them all the excuse they need to either lock him up or execute him. Harry is balanced on a knife edge right now. Mab might not stop him from doing his own thing per se, but she might actively thwart him from interfering with the functioning of her Accords. She takes that sort of thing personally.

It could be though that the Empress justifies her war as it is against Marcone who is the self-styled Baron of Chicago. Him being a Freeholding Lord might give her that opening. It is "his" city after all. I agree that it feels like a set-up to justify a war is coming. Just like Grave Peril. Reminds me of how the Red Court had been preparing to strike anyhow and Harry just lit the touchpaper. It certainly would be more interesting if it is Marcone who has to make the choice.

KutinStGeorge - Agreed. Harry isn't what he was in the Council anymore. He has a lot of work to do if he wants to clean up his image (and Harry isn't exactly a PR wizard  ;) )
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 13, 2020, 01:29:40 PM
Quote
SK - Could be that it is political. I can't really seeing the Council just allowing a slaughter of human life though...but it would be interesting if they had to choose between their mission and the Accords. I can definitely see Cristos arguing against defending Chicago. Mab would never violate her own Accords.

Actually there is a hint in Christmas Eve that that is exactly what happened, or something very close.
I believe it was Molly who said to Harry, and I am paraphrasing, "you tried to tell them but they wouldn't listen."  That goes along with what Rashid said to Harry back in Turn Coat, "now is not the time for you to confront the Council," implying strongly that at some point in the future he will have to.  So they don't listen when it could be dealt with, and Harry is forced to go it alone with the one thing he can do, and this is sort of born out by the trailer when Eb says something to the effect it is insane for him to attempt it, but Harry is forced to invoke the Darkhallow, gain godlike powers because that is the only way one mortal can stop a Titian, and though he saves the world, a lot of lives are going to be lost as a result.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 13, 2020, 04:12:01 PM
I noted the line in Turncoat during my recent re-read, but don’t think Harry would Darkhallow in Battle Field as it would kill the people of Chicago. He has the tools to take on the Titan at Demonreach, as well as the necessary skills and knowledge. I also think that when he does use the Darkhallow, it will be on a battlefield of his choosing. The overrun gates spring to mind, or Demonreach, or New Jersey not the City. I also think he won’t use it for himself, he will elevate someone else ( I always imagine a Galactus sized and hungry Toot, off to find the Discworld)
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on July 13, 2020, 05:36:01 PM
I noted the line in Turncoat during my recent re-read, but don’t think Harry would Darkhallow in Battle Field as it would kill the people of Chicago. He has the tools to take on the Titan at Demonreach, as well as the necessary skills and knowledge. I also think that when he does use the Darkhallow, it will be on a battlefield of his choosing. The overrun gates spring to mind, or Demonreach, or New Jersey not the City. I also think he won’t use it for himself, he will elevate someone else ( I always imagine a Galactus sized and hungry Toot, off to find the Discworld)

It depends, and he might be able to save the city with Darkhallow, he may not have any options but to do so.  It appears from the "butcher's bill" as Lord Nelson used to call it that Molly presented him,  the total medical bills and funeral bills, it numbers in the thousands.  However if he doesn't use Darkhallow, it could number in the millions.  It could be that the tools back on Demonreach enable him to use Darkhallow without becoming corrupted by it and enable him to control it more.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Snark Knight on July 13, 2020, 06:45:19 PM
The problem is that Harry is representing one or both groups, and so is acting as proxy. While it's possible he is going all lone wolf, I think the Council and/or Mab would stop him from interfering. Mab would hardly need to try as I suspect him disobeying her would rob him of his mantle and paralyze him. In theory, Harry could act independently of the Council. In practice (especially considering the political maneuvering against him) he likely would give them all the excuse they need to either lock him up or execute him.

Mab wouldn't have any reason to command him not to defend his home if the Fomor attacked Marcone's territory, though. She wants them to fall, but so long as she doesn't order his action, she has a solid argument that her Knight doesn't have an Accorded obligation to let his home get trashed by a dispute between two other powers to preserve Winter's neutrality.

The Council don't have to be as strictly legalistic, granted. They'd be pissed if he intervened and dragged them into another open war while failing to kill the Empress ... but the Council are pretty remote, and if he fails in this, he'll be dead before he has to worry about their disapproval. On the other hand, if his worst weekend of the year ends up with a dead Titan that he reports to them as a fait accompli, what are they going to do about it? The Wardens have been in hard fighting against the Fomor for some years right now without a declaration of formal war ... bringing in the enemy leader's head would mend a lot of fences with pro-Harry young Wardens wavering over him joining Winter and being MIA for the Fomor fighting.

Besides, there's another out by which he can take Marcone's side, if that is the scenario. He still owes Vadderung a favour. If he trades that to Marcone to use on aiding the defense of Chicago, Harry isn't representing either Winter or the Council. He's paying off a debt as he's obligated to do.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 13, 2020, 08:32:28 PM
A Darkhallow would take more than thousands of lives, I think the ‘Butchers Bill’ is collateral damage saving Chicago, remember Chicago is important to Faerie, destroy it and you screw up Faerie, perhaps Winter itself. The other point is that this is where the mortal world realises what has been going on behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: magical_liopleurodon on August 28, 2020, 09:10:34 AM
Man, I'm really looking forward to this.

Preview chapters start coming out next week
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Regenbogen on August 28, 2020, 10:27:25 AM
Man, I'm really looking forward to this.

Preview chapters start coming out next week

Oooooh yes! It's only 4 days. I'm soooooo excited!
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on August 28, 2020, 10:51:53 AM
A Darkhallow would take more than thousands of lives, I think the ‘Butchers Bill’ is collateral damage saving Chicago, remember Chicago is important to Faerie, destroy it and you screw up Faerie, perhaps Winter itself. The other point is that this is where the mortal world realises what has been going on behind the scenes.

Remember Molly came to Harry on Christmas Eve telling him the Winter Court paid for the funeral and the medical bills for thousands?  Harry felt totally responsible, now either because he didn't stop the titian before this happened, or to stop her he had to use Dark Hallow.  Now yeah, I also realize that it could have been Harry, just being Harry, feeling responsible for stuff beyond his control.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 28, 2020, 11:14:03 AM
It’s the difference between Eb and Harry, Eb (partly through the Blackstaff and partly through his own nature) is incapable of accepting blame. Harry not only accepts blame for his actions but feels responsible even for things he really shouldn’t, where clearly he did everything in his power to stop events unfolding. His presence in Chicago indirectly led to it being a target (through Mab’s machinations) leading to loss of life and injury. Harry did everything anyone could to mitigate the harm, but he appears to have made Mab accept her role and pay reparations. It’s still not enough.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on August 28, 2020, 03:21:40 PM
It’s the difference between Eb and Harry, Eb (partly through the Blackstaff and partly through his own nature) is incapable of accepting blame. Harry not only accepts blame for his actions but feels responsible even for things he really shouldn’t, where clearly he did everything in his power to stop events unfolding. His presence in Chicago indirectly led to it being a target (through Mab’s machinations) leading to loss of life and injury. Harry did everything anyone could to mitigate the harm, but he appears to have made Mab accept her role and pay reparations. It’s still not enough.

Well, lets see what he feels responsible for first. 
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on August 28, 2020, 07:22:32 PM
It’s the difference between Eb and Harry, Eb (partly through the Blackstaff and partly through his own nature) is incapable of accepting blame.

I don't know, he does seem troubled by what he's done in BR.

I think it's more that Eb thinks that what he's done is for the best. That's not incompatible with feeling guilt over what he "had to do", but it won't keep him from doing it again in the same situation. He's inflexible, like most old wizards.

The Blackstaff keeps him from being corrupted by black magic, but it doesn't keep him from rationalizing the things he's done.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on August 28, 2020, 07:47:28 PM
I don't know, he does seem troubled by what he's done in BR.

I think it's more that Eb thinks that what he's done is for the best. That's not incompatible with feeling guilt over what he "had to do", but it won't keep him from doing it again in the same situation. He's inflexible, like most old wizards.

The Blackstaff keeps him from being corrupted by black magic, but it doesn't keep him from rationalizing the things he's done.

Exactly, I believe Eb has said he felt a bit guilty about what he has done.  Feeling guilt isn't the same as being corrupted by black magic, actually the opposite.  It is about the power trip that using black magic gives, it is easier and seemingly more bang for the buck so to speak.  Using it once leads to using more, that is how it corrupts.  The fact that Eb does feel some guilt and bad about some of what he has down, says he isn't corrupted by what he is forced to do with the staff.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: magical_liopleurodon on September 01, 2020, 11:47:11 AM
oh the torture of waiting for a new chapter
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 01, 2020, 11:52:48 AM
“The City was underwater, and it wasn’t my fault.”

I keep checking, if there is no chapter drop,  there are going to be a lot of irate fans.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: ClintACK on September 01, 2020, 11:57:31 AM
There will be a chapter drop -- but probably not for another 6-8 hours.

oh the torture of waiting for a new chapter

... exceeded only by the torture of finishing the new chapter and realizing it's a whole week before you'll get another...
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: magical_liopleurodon on September 01, 2020, 12:09:24 PM
There will be a chapter drop -- but probably not for another 6-8 hours.

... exceeded only by the torture of finishing the new chapter and realizing it's a whole week before you'll get another...

oh man. I see that Priscellie usually posts at 10am-ish. What timezone? If that's San Francisco, I'm gonna die  ;D
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Regenbogen on September 01, 2020, 12:15:26 PM
I try not to read it this time. Or at least read two chapters. So I will be absent from the boards for a while. But not sure if I can do it. I'd rather read the whole book when it is out.

Edit: the drops were usually 6-8 hours from now, if this is any help. ;)
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 01, 2020, 11:24:01 PM
First drop is 2 chapters!
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on September 02, 2020, 02:11:12 AM
Mab wouldn't have any reason to command him not to defend his home if the Fomor attacked Marcone's territory, though. She wants them to fall, but so long as she doesn't order his action, she has a solid argument that her Knight doesn't have an Accorded obligation to let his home get trashed by a dispute between two other powers to preserve Winter's neutrality.

The Council don't have to be as strictly legalistic, granted. They'd be pissed if he intervened and dragged them into another open war while failing to kill the Empress ... but the Council are pretty remote, and if he fails in this, he'll be dead before he has to worry about their disapproval. On the other hand, if his worst weekend of the year ends up with a dead Titan that he reports to them as a fait accompli, what are they going to do about it? The Wardens have been in hard fighting against the Fomor for some years right now without a declaration of formal war ... bringing in the enemy leader's head would mend a lot of fences with pro-Harry young Wardens wavering over him joining Winter and being MIA for the Fomor fighting.

Besides, there's another out by which he can take Marcone's side, if that is the scenario. He still owes Vadderung a favour. If he trades that to Marcone to use on aiding the defense of Chicago, Harry isn't representing either Winter or the Council. He's paying off a debt as he's obligated to do.
As we can see, you are of course correct. Because Ethniu has flipped the bird at the Accords and Mab. And because Mab is attacked, all Accorded Nations are honor-bound to defend her. So it seems the White Council, or at least enough of the Senior Council, has made a decision to defend Mab. I wonder if the Merlin knows. Clearly he doesn't need to pay Vadderung or take Marcone's side either as they are all on the same side.

The real question is, knowing Harry's luck, will they still attempt to strip him of his status? I suspect it all depends on how badly this fight goes. The last chapter of Peace Talks hints that this is still something Harry should be worried about. It really all depends on who is running the White Council...the Merlin or the Black Council.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on September 02, 2020, 12:41:51 PM
Quote
The real question is, knowing Harry's luck, will they still attempt to strip him of his status? I suspect it all depends on how badly this fight goes. The last chapter of Peace Talks hints that this is still something Harry should be worried about. It really all depends on who is running the White Council...the Merlin or the Black Council.

At the moment? No, there is the little matter of the Fomor and a Titian with a bad ass weapon attacking and threatening to take over the world.  After, if there is an after, I think a lot will depend on who on the Senior Council survives, who dies, and who, if there is anyone left, to replace them.
In the end it might not matter one way or the other because the Senior Council may prove with this latest fiasco that they have outlived their usefulness and something else, not the Black Council may rise to replace them.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 02, 2020, 12:49:30 PM
I suspect we will see major changes in the White Council, they won’t continue as they were previously. Harry has very little time for them as currently constituted, he really wasn’t too bothered even before the Titan.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 02, 2020, 07:16:44 PM
Yeah, I expect significant changes resulting from losing key senior people in the battle against Ethniu and, longer-term, having to interact with mortal authorities.

But some version of the White Council has to survive IMO because the Gatekeeper implied Harry would confront them someday in TC... Maybe a lot of the Senior Council will die and Cristos will take over?
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 02, 2020, 07:26:36 PM
Perhaps this is where and when it happens, I can see the break coming over the Senior Council trying to maintain the masquerade because this is what they know, and Harry knowing that they have to come out front, as the mortal worlds defenders against evil supernatural forces.

Let’s just hope that the White Council are not one of those evil supernatural forces that has to be defended against. Harry living openly as a Wizard makes him the ideal spokeswizard to the Mortal world.

Oh how he is going to hate that.

But it will force reform, mortal authorities are going to require respect for their laws, and that is perhaps where Murphy comes in (if she survives)
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 02, 2020, 07:50:48 PM
Perhaps this is where and when it happens,

Possible.

Quote
But it will force reform, mortal authorities are going to require respect for their laws

Yeah, that would be... interesting and scary. Clearly they're not going to be OK with the Council just executing warlocks, but it could be a pretty tense situation, especially if they don't have a good picture of the Council's actual limitations.

And mortal police really aren't in a position to deal with warlocks, other than the weaker and most overt ones, without supernatural help (like Harry helping out SI against Kravos); especially as the best bet for mortals against warlocks is to kill from a distance and by surprise, not try to arrest them.

And the WC's setup is not a good fit for the modern political system where nations are all essentially territory-based, the White Council has no territory of its own really.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 02, 2020, 08:13:39 PM
Whereas the other supernatural nations have territory in the NeverNever, which puts the White Council in a difficult position. It doesn’t have anywhere to call it’s own.

Even the Knight can claim the Vatican and Marcone his substantial land holdings.

According to WOJ agent Barry Tilly is supposed to represent the US Government in PT, this is obviously pre-split, I suspect we will see him fleetingly with the CPD during the battle itself, and that he will have a prominent role in the aftermath that Harry is so worried about.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 03, 2020, 12:40:52 AM
Whereas the other supernatural nations have territory in the NeverNever, which puts the White Council in a difficult position. It doesn’t have anywhere to call it’s own.

Not all of them, I don't think the White Court does either, or the LaChaise ghoul clan, etc. But yeah, those that do are in a far better position. Summer and Winter and the Erlking aren't at risk of mortal attacks against their home territory.

The big problem for the White Council is also that the Laws drastically limit what they can do vs mortals. The White Court could take over a nation pretty easily; dictatorships and others with very concentrated power structures would be very vulnerable to mind-controlling the person at the top.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on September 03, 2020, 02:11:19 AM
Actually, the White Council has significant physical assets. Jim has spoken several times about the various locations owned by the White Council apart from the castle under Edinburgh, not to mention their enormous financial holdings (likely several hedge funds or similar). Even if the US got upset, the White Council would probably return to Europe where their influence is strongest. I doubt they would be overly upset if the US kicked them out.

What I think will be interesting is seeing how the other nations react. Not to mention, the USA has enough enemies circling it. An enormous, terrifying internal threat might be more than it can handle. Don't think for a second that the enemies of the US wouldn't take advantage of such a situation. More on this in another thread.

As for the Warlock execution thing...I don't think they would mind. I think they would prefer if their own authorities did it, and I suspect the White Council wouldn't object. Ideally they would work together. It would be trickier in states that don't have the death penalty. Often when countries invade other countries some locals side with the invaders. Sometimes for a chance at a better life, or because they feel oppressed by their own government, sometimes they are forced into it. It's an ugly world sometimes too. But I suspect that the US would probably (at least initially) want those with the know-how to help them catch and probably kill other supernaturals. Of course, what happens when it's only the "good" wizards left? Us mortals tend to fear what we don't understand and cannot control, and hate what we fear. So likely, they end up killing them too. Assuming they win the war against the bad guys.

Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 03, 2020, 03:33:54 AM
Actually, the White Council has significant physical assets.

Sure, but they all are within some nation or other. The White Council wouldn't have a voice in the UN, and by international law they'd ultimately be subject to regular nations. They don't have an NN territory inaccessible to vanilla mortals like the various Fae nations, and the Laws prevent them from just taking over some nation as a "safe zone" by mind-controlling its leadership as the White Court could do.

As for the Warlock execution thing...I don't think they would mind. I think they would prefer if their own authorities did it, and I suspect the White Council wouldn't object.

Yeah, I didn't really mean so much opposition to executing warlocks in principle (even nations and US states that don't have the death penalty might change the law if they found out about e.g. what Kemmler did).

More that nations wouldn't allow the White Council to perform executions outside the existing legal system, and I'm not sure it would be practical/workable to keep warlocks imprisoned for long enough to go through the legal system -- some of the weaker/less skilled ones, maybe, but not anybody who could get to the NN, or mind-control people, etc. without ritual gear. Even Kravos, who wasn't that powerful or skilled, was able to set up the whole Nightmare thing from prison.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on September 03, 2020, 03:52:46 AM
Sure, but they all are within some nation or other. The White Council wouldn't have a voice in the UN, and by international law they'd ultimately be subject to regular nations. They don't have an NN territory inaccessible to vanilla mortals like the various Fae nations, and the Laws prevent them from just taking over some nation as a "safe zone" by mind-controlling its leadership as the White Court could do.
Hah! International law only really applies to the smaller nations. The big nations just do as they please. And no court could really enforce their justice. The whole problem is that the entire organization of the White Council is composed of too many disparate nations and is too spread out. One of the main reasons why the White Council stays out of politics in the first place. I am sure they could disappear if they needed to. How do you think they survived the Inquisition?

Yeah, I didn't really mean so much opposition to executing warlocks in principle (even nations and US states that don't have the death penalty might change the law if they found out about e.g. what Kemmler did).

More that nations wouldn't allow the White Council to perform executions outside the existing legal system, and I'm not sure it would be practical/workable to keep warlocks imprisoned for long enough to go through the legal system -- some of the weaker/less skilled ones, maybe, but not anybody who could get to the NN, or mind-control people, etc. without ritual gear. Even Kravos, who wasn't that powerful or skilled, was able to set up the whole Nightmare thing from prison.
I doubt the states that oppose the death penalty would change. The principles of the argument haven't changed, just the targets. But you never know. The real question is would they even be able to tell the White Council was executing warlocks in the first place. But you are right, the current justice system in any country isn't sophisticated or strong enough really to contain/control warlocks.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 03, 2020, 04:09:35 AM
I am sure they could disappear if they needed to. How do you think they survived the Inquisition?

No way to know, we really don't know how that worked in the DV. (The implication, IIRC, is that it was more heavily involved in witch trials than the RL Inquisition.) But the Inquisition was pretty geographically limited, even relative to the 'known world' of that era (basically Europe and the Mediterranean). Certainly it had no power in the Eastern Orthodox or Islamic areas, and I think it was usually much more localized than that.

Quote
I doubt the states that oppose the death penalty would change. The principles of the argument haven't changed, just the targets.

I don't know... I think the picture changes a lot if you can no longer rely on prisons to keep people away from the general population, because warlocks can just use illusions/mind-bending to escape or walk out through the NN or something (or if imprisoned warlocks can still do harm remotely through something like Kravos' Nightmare ritual or demon summoning or...)
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: ClintACK on September 03, 2020, 09:36:59 AM
Given the existence of a perfect magical prison, I'd imagine that arguments against the death penalty would be on stronger ground. We could even see the White Council shift to using Demonreach instead of decapitation.

But even for non-capital offenses, it's hard to imagine mortal governments just handing over magical criminals for trial and punishment in an entirely independent system of government. That works fine right now, when those magical criminals and independent courts officially don't exist, but after?

And the merging of magical justice into mortal justice comes with all kinds of pitfalls. Could mortal Outsider-cultists sue the White Council and demand federal protection of their religious freedoms? If a federal judge issues a writ of habeas corpus demanding the production in court of some eldritch horror from the lower cells... what happens?


Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on September 03, 2020, 11:21:35 AM
No way to know, we really don't know how that worked in the DV. (The implication, IIRC, is that it was more heavily involved in witch trials than the RL Inquisition.) But the Inquisition was pretty geographically limited, even relative to the 'known world' of that era (basically Europe and the Mediterranean). Certainly it had no power in the Eastern Orthodox or Islamic areas, and I think it was usually much more localized than that.
True enough, Jim hasn't been that specific. But that is exactly it: the geography is a huge limit on the power to take on the White Council. For instance, what if the White Council decided to shelter in China or Russia? What then would the US or the UK etc do? Go to war? Or the reverse, what if they decided to take shelter from Russia in the USA? Perhaps there is a scenario where each nation individually decides to persecute the supernatural (whilst simultaneously fighting off whatever supernatural nations are attacking them, along with any mortal nations as well). Some nations might be more successful than others but almost all would attempt to harness some of this "new" power and knowledge. No, the real success would always be from nations that allied with the "friendly" supernaturals like the White Council and Vadderung and Knights of the Cross.

I don't know... I think the picture changes a lot if you can no longer rely on prisons to keep people away from the general population, because warlocks can just use illusions/mind-bending to escape or walk out through the NN or something (or if imprisoned warlocks can still do harm remotely through something like Kravos' Nightmare ritual or demon summoning or...)
A little perhaps, assuming they had the time to actually change the law. If they were under assault it might be different. But ClintACK is right, it is a very complicated issue. More likely vigilante justice would increase. Assuming these governments managed to stay together at all.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 03, 2020, 11:33:49 AM
I am pretty sure proponents of the death penalty will change their mind when the concept of the death curse is explained to them, and that it could be aimed at them unless other practitioners are involved in the process. Having all the guards in a prison drop dead because an improperly handled Warlock would do that.

Wizards are going to have to obey mortal laws, so no more fairy gold, but to be fair I would love to see a mortal try to pay a wizard for services rendered in bitcoin. An exchange rate between Fairy Gold and Bitcoin may be difficult to arrange. I think the dollar would prevail over both.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on September 03, 2020, 03:28:24 PM
Quote
I am pretty sure proponents of the death penalty will change their mind when the concept of the death curse is explained to them, and that it could be aimed at them unless other practitioners are involved in the process. Having all the guards in a prison drop dead because an improperly handled Warlock would do that.

There must be a way around that when it comes to execution, otherwise warlocks wouldn't get the chop.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: morriswalters on September 03, 2020, 06:38:53 PM
The White Council might become something similar to the Papacy, whose enforcement arm might just be hired out as needed. Think the Swiss Guards without the Swiss.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: BrainFireBob on September 03, 2020, 06:42:49 PM
There must be a way around that when it comes to execution, otherwise warlocks wouldn't get the chop.

Takes vision. Hence the bagging 9f the head.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 04, 2020, 02:20:55 AM
I am pretty sure proponents of the death penalty will change their mind when the concept of the death curse is explained to them, and that it could be aimed at them unless other practitioners are involved in the process. Having all the guards in a prison drop dead because an improperly handled Warlock would do that.

It's not even really about the death penalty vs imprisonment. It's about arresting and going through the legal process, vs. shooting from surprise Kincaid-style. Without magical help, I think the latter is the only safe way for mortals to deal with strong (sorcerer- or wizard-level) warlocks.

(Even Kravos, who was neither very strong nor very skilled, managed to create the Nightmare in prison.)

But that's not going to be acceptable (for very good reasons!) to most nations.

IE some level of help from magical types will probably be necessary.

There must be a way around that when it comes to execution, otherwise warlocks wouldn't get the chop.

I don't think that there's anything 100%, but I also think it's not often a problem.

Death curses seem to require Council-level power or close to it, and Council-level talents are super-rare (one in a million). Your typical Sells or Kravos or Aristedes type warlock isn't going to be capable of one.

And the strong warlocks may be too crazy to try (e.g. Grevane). It seems to require knowing & accepting that one is going to die.

Someone like Morgan (who usually did executions) might be strong enough to shield against a death curse from a relatively weak wizard, and/or possibly the spell-breaking property of Warden swords can work against them.


Takes vision. Hence the bagging 9f the head.
No... Maggie Sr aimed her death curse at Lord Raith who was definitely not present. (And Harry's description of preparing to use his against Grevane when he thought Morgan was going to kill him in DB also sounds like you can just aim it mentally.)

Vision might matter for less capable spellcasters, but it's by no means absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 04, 2020, 02:30:04 AM
Given the existence of a perfect magical prison, I'd imagine that arguments against the death penalty would be on stronger ground.

Demonreach isn't really for mortals, Harry was desperate in PT.

And I don't think mortal governments would be OK with using Demonreach, given how absolute the Warden's power is there.

(Plus, anyone who isn't the Warden gets affected by the inherent awful/creepy aura of Demonreach, so anyone who reported to a mortal government on that option would probably be like "no freaking way we will not have anything to do with this place ever".)

Quote
But even for non-capital offenses, it's hard to imagine mortal governments just handing over magical criminals for trial and punishment in an entirely independent system of government. That works fine right now, when those magical criminals and independent courts officially don't exist, but after?

And the merging of magical justice into mortal justice comes with all kinds of pitfalls.

Yeah, exactly, that was more the sort of thing I was talking about re: being a bad fit for the modern model of nations where jurisdiction, citizenship, and territory are so closely linked.

It would work a lot better in a medieval-style system, eg, how there were Church courts and often the secular courts didn't have jurisdiction over Church officials.

In such a system, it would make perfect sense that magical practitioners, wherever they live, are under the jurisdiction of the White Council and not that of the mundane justice system (at least for magic-related crimes).

But not in the modern post-17th-century model of nations.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Mira on September 04, 2020, 04:11:07 PM
Quote
Demonreach isn't really for mortals, Harry was desperate in PT.

But is Thomas really considered a mortal?  Do we know of any Vamps that died of old age?  They can be killed, but so can some immortals under the right circumstance. 
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: knnn on September 04, 2020, 08:17:13 PM
Thorn manacles?
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: morriswalters on September 04, 2020, 10:47:07 PM
No... Maggie Sr aimed her death curse at Lord Raith who was definitely not present. (And Harry's description of preparing to use his against Grevane when he thought Morgan was going to kill him in DB also sounds like you can just aim it mentally.)

Vision might matter for less capable spellcasters, but it's by no means absolutely necessary.
Point of order, Maggie set her death curse up in advance. And it would have bounced off Raith if Jim is to be believed.  My current WAG is that she attacked the Raith's demon through Thomas's demon. And for all we know she did it on her way out the door.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 04, 2020, 10:52:34 PM
But is Thomas really considered a mortal?  Do we know of any Vamps that died of old age?  They can be killed, but so can some immortals under the right circumstance.

Point of order, Maggie set her death curse up in advance. And it would have bounced off Raith if Jim is to be believed.

If she had aimed it at him directly, yeah. But IIRC the curse is like a "shield" around Lord Raith, ie it doesn't actually affecthim just keeps energy from getting to him. He can still use his Hunger to influence the minds of others, he just can't get new energy from feeding.

Quote
My current WAG is that she attacked the Raith's demon through Thomas's demon. And for all we know she did it on her way out the door.

She couldn't have, because if she'd cast it then she would have died (and never had met Malcolm and Harry would never have been born).

And so Thomas wasn't available (he was still with the Raiths) so that wouldn't avoid the need for it to be non-line-of-sight.

I also just don't think there's any evidence for death curses being based on line-of-sight; Harry doesn't seem to think so when he's preparing for one in DB (when Morgan's about to kill him and he thinks about aiming it at Grevane).
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: ClintACK on September 04, 2020, 11:48:48 PM
I *think* the point of the hood on the warlocks pre-beheading isn't so they can't see to aim a deathcurse -- it's so they don't know they're about to die, so don't throw a deathcurse at all.

From the start of Proven Guilty: "He never knew it when the blade came down."
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Yuillegan on September 05, 2020, 01:36:17 AM
You all forget, the warlock executed in PG was contained within a circle. Not to mention, any Wizard strong enough (let alone several working together) could place another practitioner under a magical lock. Hence the Council doesn't worry about Death Curses after trials, or magic escape attempts during (by and large). I suppose they could use the Thorn Manacles but I think they are rather rare and probably they don't encourage their creation.

The hood serves the same purpose as it does for mortals i.e. so that the executed person seems less than human. Makes the whole thing easier. There has been significant research into this.

I think mortal governments would nuke demonreach if they knew the danger of it. Not just because of the demons and monsters and dark gods within, but also because the fail safe would wipe out most of North America. And so end up likely creating the problem they wish to avoid. Probably a large part of why the island is shrouded and kept secret.

The White Council might become something similar to the Papacy, whose enforcement arm might just be hired out as needed. Think the Swiss Guards without the Swiss.
That I can see. However I suspect it's just as likely the Council would collapse and individual Wizards would go back and support their homelands. I suspect relatively few would attempt to hold the Council together if things got really bad.

Wizards are going to have to obey mortal laws, so no more fairy gold, but to be fair I would love to see a mortal try to pay a wizard for services rendered in bitcoin. An exchange rate between Fairy Gold and Bitcoin may be difficult to arrange. I think the dollar would prevail over both.
The White Council (and many wizards within and without) have mortal money. The White Council as an organisation has enormous financial holdings. They hardly need fairy gold, nor do they seem to use it for mortal transactions. Not to mention, they also are already subject to mortal laws. Openly, they obey them like everyone else. And like everyone else, some choose not to when they think they won't be caught. Only a few openly flout the law. It often doesn't work out.


Something to also consider is the fact that only a relatively short time ago the magical community was out in the open. Some even remember it. So they know what to do if they are rediscovered. The real question is what happens if things go sideways and it's dark times all round.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: vultur on September 05, 2020, 04:43:45 AM
You all forget, the warlock executed in PG was contained within a circle.

Yeah, although I do wonder... wouldn't Morgan's sword (swung by a mortal having free will) break the Circle?

But yeah, I think it's very rarely an issue, due to a combination of the precautions they take + most warlocks aren't actually strong enough to do a death curse + many of the ones capable of it don't.

It seems to require accepting that you're going to die; Grevane didn't. Someone not Council-trained might not know it's a possibility, even if they were strong enough. (Cassius did, but he was ancient; even though he's called a "sorcerer" he probably knew more about magic than many wizards.)

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I think mortal governments would nuke demonreach if they knew the danger of it. Not just because of the demons and monsters and dark gods within, but also because the fail safe would wipe out most of North America. And so end up likely creating the problem they wish to avoid

I don't think a nuke would hurt Demonreach, but maybe if it was enough to change the shape of the island... I doubt they'd use multiple H-bombs relatively close to a large city, though, especially since Demonreach has been there for ages and remained stable.

If they did damage it, that would be incredibly bad.

I doubt that part will go public, though. Harry binding the Titan might, but not the details of how.
Title: Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
Post by: Regenbogen on September 05, 2020, 09:15:45 PM
I can see a whole new market evolving for magic suppressing items. The fae trading with humans. Their iron free safety for iron free thorn manacles.
The svartalves constructing magic suppressing prison cells or other magic suppressing manacles.

But I do think there will be harsh times for human magic users. At first there will be cheers. The wizards helped safe us from the big bad fomor. After the first euphoria has calmed down, the voices of doubt will become stronger. Hey, those wizards are really powerful and a threat, how do we know which ones are evil? They will kill us all or enslave us. And how do we know, who is a wizard. They look just like us. They are everywhere in our middle. Yes, they saved us, but sure they have their own agenda.
And so on. This will lead to prosecution of magic users. Exactly what the wizards fear, and why they kept their existence a secret.