Saint Patrick was also mentioned as having used the Loup Garou curse.True, Id forgotten that actual text mention, thanks. Grain of salt on that one is that the context of the mention was a Demon placing blame for a centuries-old murderous Curse on said famous Saint, and several forumites over the years have expressed skepticism given the infernal source. Hell, harry expresses skepticism for the same reason.
Chauncy smiled, a rather intimidating expression. "MacFinn is a member of an ancient family line from an island known as Ireland. His family has a notable history. Sometime in the murky past, legend would have it, the man known as Saint Patrick cursed his ancestor to become a ravening beast at every full moon. The curse came with two addenda. First, that it would be hereditary, passing down to someone new each and every generation. And second, that the cursed line of the family would never, ever die out, lasting until the end of days."
I wrote that down as well. "A Catholic saint did that?"
Chauncy made a sound of distaste. "I am not responsible for the sorts of people the Other Side employs, wizard. Or the tactics they use."
"Considering the source, I think I'll note it as a biased opinion. Your folk have done a thousand times worse," I said.
Hrmmm Maybe Saints are wizards who specialize in faith based magic to the point it's the only form of magic they practice and therefor aren't actually part of the White Council?Interesting notion. We've been told repeatedly that Harry is pretty far on the Magic=Science end of the spectrum and that not all on the Council see it that way. But despite that there is a qualitative difference between Magic and Faith energy by all accounts, so I wonder if a practitioner of a more Faith-based tradition would be distinct enough to be left separate by the mostly draft-based Council.
I suspect Saints are something comparable to the Knights of the Cross -- although I suspect the Old Gods had their own versions of the same. Priests who wield great divine power. Although an argument can be made that demigods are the pre-Christian equivalent of a Saint.I picture saints being very different from demi-gods. Saints would be more like high priests of the temple. Demi-gods are usually scions.
I would have said that a holy person *becomes* a Saint after death.
A Saint is a deceased human who you pray to, asking them to intercede on your behalf with the big G, as someone who was once human and interested in the kind of difficulty you're having.
Example: Michael might have said a prayer to St. George before he took on Siriothrax.
So... consider Murphy's Dad. He's dead. He heads up an office somewhere in the transition between our world and the next. He has an angel standing guard at the door. He works for Uriel.
WAG of all WAGs: Murphy's Dad might be the patron saint of cops and others trying to keep people safe from the things that go bump in the night.
I'm mostly with Groinkick on this one. Saints are most likely people with an aptitude for faith magic, just as Harry has an aptitude for elemental magic. It's most likely not one or the other; it's probably conditioning.Cool. Added an option for Saint as a Faith-based practitioner comparable to a Wizard. That cover it?
The closest we've probably seen on-page to a Saint would be Charity. She set aside her power after the Sirio thing, but that hammer blow to the door at Arctis Tor was more than just strength and iron. I think she put her faith in a higher power, and that power acted through her latent talent (like Michael's faith protection, only offensive).
If Molly had been more devout, her talent might have lent herself to being a faith caster that could do enough good to be considered a saint.
I would have said that a holy person *becomes* a Saint after death.Capt Jack is a great idea and one Id overlooked (Added). He definitely fits the classic/popular definition of a Saint the best (though I have a feeling he'd strongly disagree with the notion, but so would Harry). And while deceased he still appears to have some interaction with the Mortal World (as sanctioned by Heaven, one assumes) which might get around the WOJ's that describe them as active players.
A Saint is a deceased human who you pray to, asking them to intercede on your behalf with the big G, as someone who was once human and interested in the kind of difficulty you're having.
Example: Michael might have said a prayer to St. George before he took on Siriothrax.
So... consider Murphy's Dad. He's dead. He heads up an office somewhere in the transition between our world and the next. He has an angel standing guard at the door. He works for Uriel.
WAG of all WAGs: Murphy's Dad might be the patron saint of cops and others trying to keep people safe from the things that go bump in the night.
That's more along the lines of traditional meaning but the one thing that stands out is that (I think) Jim said that when the Black Court was being attacked by humans there were KoTC, wizards, other vampire courts, and even some Saints. I might be remembering it wrong but I thought it was something like that.Yup, I included those WOJ's in the OP for Reference.
That's more along the lines of traditional meaning but the one thing that stands out is that (I think) Jim said that when the Black Court was being attacked by humans there were KoTC, wizards, other vampire courts, and even some Saints. I might be remembering it wrong but I thought it was something like that.
I'm mostly with Groinkick on this one. Saints are most likely people with an aptitude for faith magic, just as Harry has an aptitude for elemental magic. It's most likely not one or the other; it's probably conditioning.
"Back," I said. taking a step toward it myself. The pentacle began to burn with a cold, clear light of applied will and belief--my faith, if you will, that it could turn a monster aside.
But Harry does have an aptitude for faith magic. He has faith in his magic, he often speaks of it, that is why he pulled itI dont know, I think that just sounds too easy, too much like the Old "For a man with only a Hammer, everything is a Nail." Harry believes in his own Magic enough to summon Faith-glow from his pentacle, but when he turns to his magic to solve a problem it's not an act of Faith, it's just a man grasping a tool for a goal.
out when Bianca attacked him in Storm Front, and it was effective..
Storm Front, page 103-104 hardback
Again in Skin Game when he tossed the hilt of Fid in the direction of Charity and Butters, it was a leap of faith that it would do some good.
So Harry has strong faith, not conventional in the way many think of but he has it.. Does that make him a saint? In the television series, The Young Pope, saints are described in having, paraphrasing now, "a faith in God so strong that they turn to prayer to fix something before they turn to other humans.." That sort of fits Harry, his faith in his magic and what he can do with it is usually so strong that he doesn't turn to his friends who might be able to help him.
I dont know, I think that just sounds too easy, too much like the Old "For a man with only a Hammer, everything is a Nail." Harry believes in his own Magic enough to summon Faith-glow from his pentacle, but when he turns to his magic to solve a problem it's not an act of Faith, it's just a man grasping a tool for a goal.
Harry /has/ made more prominent Acts of Faith, and Id say gotten noticed because of them, but I think they've been relatively rare.
I took a deep breath, struggling to see clear of the anger, the hate, the deep lust that burned within me for vengeance and retribution. That wasn't what magic was for. That wasn't what magic did. Magic came from life itself, from the interaction of nature and the elements, from the energy of all living beings, and especially from people. A man's magic demonstrates what sort of person he is, what is held most deeply inside of him. There is no truer gauge of a man's character than in the way he employs his strength, his power.
Grain of salt on that one is that the context of the mention was a Demon placing blame for a centuries-old murderous Curse on said famous Saint, and several forumites over the years have expressed skepticism given the infernal source. Hell, harry expresses skepticism for the same reason.
Easy? Yes, but faith is that simple for those who truly believe.. Oh it can be tested by a lot of things, but in the end the answer to the question is either yes, one has faith, or no, one does not, there is no in-between..More along the lines of too common. Saints appear to have significant Power in their own right, something rare enough that the church kept cumulative lists and devoted Holidays to each one. If it were as simple as you describe then nearly every priest ever should be one, no?
More along the lines of too common. Saints appear to have significant Power in their own right, something rare enough that the church kept cumulative lists and devoted Holidays to each one. If it were as simple as you describe then nearly every priest ever should be one, no?
For the sake of simplification, let's say that there are saints, and there are Saints. Little s saints can be awesome people without power. Big S Saints have significant power, and are what we're discussing.
But then one has to define what "significant" power means... Do you mean they can throw their weight around supernaturally? Lots of wizards and Fae can do that, but that doesn't make them saints...A Saint would probably be defined by what kind of weight they were throwing around. Wizards and Warlocks are both mortal spell casters but the type of magic they use defines them. A Saint may be like that. Similar but different because the type of power they utilize makes them stand apart. Chances are good it's also who they are allied to. Wizards generally are recognized as members of the White Council, and you have the White Court, Red Court, Winter, Summer ect... A Saint probably is allied with some sort of Holy organization. Chances are good that they report to TWG, or an Angel, or maybe are the backup to Knight's of The Cross when things get really really bad which is why Saints are in the Dresdenverse but appear to be extremely rare.
For the sake of simplification, let's say that there are saints, and there are Saints. Little s saints can be awesome people without power. Big S Saints have significant power, and are what we're discussing.(https://media.giphy.com/media/12XMGIWtrHBl5e/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/12XMGIWtrHBl5e/giphy.gif)So we'll have beautified and Beautified, venerated and Venerated, and sainted, Sainted, and Val Kilmer.
No. Please dear lord NO. We are not starting another one of the little letter/Big Letter distinctions. d/Dragons are already one of the most cumbersome topics because of that nomenclature, there's a constant need to clarify with "Little-d dragon" or "Capital D Dragon" (especially for folks like me that chronically capitalize for no damn reason, like the hands are possessed... ).
I propose the following terms. These are (technically) the actual steps to canonizations, so the idea was to use them as closely to their RL intents, on the basis that in the TDF the original metaphysical truth of things would have evolved into the current public form.
Venerated: Recognized by the church as a Saint (in modern time could mean no actual power or knowledge of the supernatural).
Beatified: One that has some form of Divine/Faith Power, but is not fully a Saint. [specific distinction TBD]
Dictionary.com = 2 [Roman Catholic Church] to declare (a deceased person) to be among the blessed and thus entitled to specific religious honor.
Sainted: TBD
So we'll have beautified and Beautified, venerated and Venerated, and sainted, Sainted, and Val Kilmer.
(https://resizing.flixster.com/yri3K2XpFuAoRRmjcDDAqmuD1HU=/300x300/v1.bjs4NzE5MTY7ajsxNzM4MDsxMjAwOzI3OTA7MzUwNw)
*Note that I'm not opposed to also having val kilmer for his later work.
From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
We may wish to use a "proof is in the pudding" mentality, and define Saints based on their ability to perform miracles. What separates Miracles from Magic? Magic appears to require some level of aptitude and investment from the one person doing the working. Miracles could potentially be defined as "magic coming from an external source". Of course, we know from magical theory that this would fall under thaumaturgy, that is, magic from a distance, instead of evocation.This could work, lets chase that.
Putting it together: a Saint is someone who can act as a thaumaturgic channel for a divine being who chooses to exert their power at a distance.
From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
- Grave Peril: When both Susan and Michael managed to ignite their crosses with holy fire to repel Mavra (something I'm not sure Susan could have usually managed).
- All sorts of neat stuff that happens to people wielding the swords. I suspect that's more the relics in question acting as thaumaturgic links, rather than the person, though.
Thoughts?
See these are the things I wonder aren't asked by people meeting Jim. So many of the questions are always the same. A Saint was mentioned in the book as an explanation for a curse. Jim mentioned them as taking part against the Black Court. I want to know WHAT a Saint is in the Dresdenverse. Are they endowed by power from TWG? Are they wizards that specialize in faith magic? Are they people who after dying return as some sort of angelic/mortal hybrid who can cross the boundaries Angels cannot?Ya, but people REAALLLLY want to know if Justin is Dead, like Really DED-dead, you know, as it "Ded-DEAD" dead-dead. That's important too, right? :P
Ya, but people REAALLLLY want to know if Justin is Dead, like Really DED-dead, you know, as it "Ded-DEAD" dead-dead. That's important too, right? :P
Or how Jim got into writing the Dresden Files... I mean the story is great but it's explained in I think every one of these things. Don't they watch youtube? The story is told over and over and over again.To be fair, I myself have an irrational aversion to youtube and so rarely look at anything on it; Im being a grumpy old man on this with no conscious reason behind it, and Ive come to accept that. So I cant get too mad at fans that havent done all the background research before they meet him in a Q&A. It's a little easier here, where we have the WOJ section to get up to speed, but even here we love to regularly beat dead equines 8)
This could work, lets chase that.Now here I would disagree with you, I don't think Michael ever "uses magic" or casts a spell. There are times when his prayers are more dramatic and flashy and times when he's quiet and humble, but I think it's all based on his Faith that TWG is using him as a tool and the response, whatever shape that response comes in, is coming from on high.
When first introduced it was mentioned that "Michael didn't come down into the lab with me because the whole concept of using magic without the Almighty behind it didn't sit well with him, regardless of what we'd been through together". I always thought this was an indication that Michael was entirely familiar with a farm of magic that /was/ more religious (as distinct from Harry views). Now, when Michael prays to God it's always characterized as being the very simple, humble and direct sort of Prayer, just asking for help without a lot of ostentatious trappings. And sometimes when he prays like that spectacular things happen. But other times he shouts Latin battle-cries and such to get the effects. I submit that when he is using Latin phrases to channel power, he is casting a spell using magic words as mental insulation as per usual; it's likely at least as unconscious a process as the Alpha's transformation has supposedly become, but I think it's still Magic (Not sure if it's Life Energy or Faith Energy, or some blending). By contrast I propose that those times he's prayed in the more simple way in English for a result we are seeing something qualitatively different, arguably the sort of "divine intervention" miracles that Saints are supposed to be able to request from on-high. Thoughts?
To be fair, I myself have an irrational aversion to youtube and so rarely look at anything on it; Im being a grumpy old man on this with no conscious reason behind it, and Ive come to accept that. So I cant get too mad at fans that havent done all the background research before they meet him in a Q&A. It's a little easier here, where we have the WOJ section to get up to speed, but even here we love to regularly beat dead equines 8)
Now here I would disagree with you, I don't think Michael ever "uses magic" or casts a spell. There are times when his prayers are more dramatic and flashy and times when he's quiet and humble, but I think it's all based on his Faith that TWG is using him as a tool and the response, whatever shape that response comes in, is coming from on high.
Now here I would disagree with you, I don't think Michael ever "uses magic" or casts a spell. There are times when his prayers are more dramatic and flashy and times when he's quiet and humble, but I think it's all based on his Faith that TWG is using him as a tool and the response, whatever shape that response comes in, is coming from on high.
No, he doesn't, ever... Nor would he ever call such a thing magic, as far as he is concerned he is merely an instrument of the Almighty... As, by the way, any good saint would say..I wouldnt disagree except for that particular quote, which has always confused me since it seems to very directly and explicitly state otherwise.
When he was at Bianca's ball he used holy magic to harm the Red Court vampires. He did this without the aid of his Sword.See, that's how I picture a magic-user who's brand of magic is committed to the religious model (something I expect Butters to start exploring more and more, since he has both Bob and non of the same prejudice that early Michael did).
"Iesu Domine!" (Jesus Dominates... I think)
Michael's voice rang out from beneath the vampires like a brass army bugle, and with a sudden explosion of pressure and unseen force, bodies flew back and up, away from him, flesh ripped and torn from them, hanging in raged, bloodless strips like cloth, showing gleaming, oily black flesh beneath.
"Domine!" Michael shouted, rising slewing gutted vamps off of him like a dog shakes off water
"Lava quod est sordium!" (Cleanse that which is unclean.... I think)
That's how I picture a Saint, except more powerful.
See, that's how I picture a magic-user who's brand of magic is committed to the religious model (something I expect Butters to start exploring more and more, since he has both Bob and non of the same prejudice that early Michael did).
The example of how I picture a Saint comes a little later on. After all, saints are those that are suppose to have the Ear of Heaven, who can ask for things directly on our behalf.(click to show/hide)
Indeed she took credit for the parting smoke (fairly directly, too, for a fae) though obviously not the Lay On Hand restarting of Harry's heart after what some have argued was a Deathcurse. Whether TWG was complicit in that is a matter of theology I suppose, when talking about an agency that works via coincidence most of the time it's hard to delineate. Easy to say he might have arranged things so that Lea would be able to find them and open the tunnel in the smoke as a response to Michael's Prayer, and hard to disprove.
I seem to remember that Lea took credit for the parting of the smoke and their escape... But then again she could be working with the Almighty as well..
Indeed she took credit for the parting smoke (fairly directly, too, for a fae) though obviously not the Lay On Hand restarting of Harry's heart after what some have argued was a Deathcurse. Whether TWG was complicit in that is a matter of theology I suppose, when talking about an agency that works via coincidence most of the time it's hard to delineate. Easy to say he might have arranged things so that Lea would be able to find them and open the tunnel in the smoke as a response to Michael's Prayer, and hard to disprove.(click to show/hide)
Since Mab admits that she works with Uriel at times, well sort of, sometimes they have the same agenda, it could be..Not impossible, though I would imagine that colluding with Uriel would involve a little more direct interaction than with The Boss.
Not impossible, though I would imagine that colluding with Uriel would involve a little more direct interaction than with The Boss.
Indeed, supposedly He is the ultimate Boss of both Mab and Uriel..Oh, no not what I meant at all, just meant that Uriel seems to communicate directly (confirmed by Michael) while I dont see TWG bothering to actually communicate anything with her, s/he'd arrange things and omnisciently Know how she would react
When he was at Bianca's ball he used holy magic to harm the Red Court vampires. He did this without the aid of his Sword.See, that's how I picture a magic-user who's brand of magic is committed to the religious model (something I expect Butters to start exploring more and more, since he has both Bob and non of the same prejudice that early Michael did).
"Iesu Domine!" (Jesus Dominates... I think)
Michael's voice rang out from beneath the vampires like a brass army bugle, and with a sudden explosion of pressure and unseen force, bodies flew back and up, away from him, flesh ripped and torn from them, hanging in raged, bloodless strips like cloth, showing gleaming, oily black flesh beneath.
"Domine!" Michael shouted, rising slewing gutted vamps off of him like a dog shakes off water
"Lava quod est sordium!" (Cleanse that which is unclean.... I think)
That's how I picture a Saint, except more powerful.
The example of how I picture a Saint comes a little later on. After all, saints are those that are suppose to have the Ear of Heaven, who can ask for things directly on our behalf.(click to show/hide)
I believe a saint is something else.
A saint is someone who, as Uriel describes it in the Warrior, fights the good fight in myriads of ways.
A handful, sometimes, will be acting as leaders of the flock against supernatural evils, or as conduits for a miracle, but 9 times out of 10 they will just go about their lives, helping their fellow man and making their lives better.
In that way, Father Forthill seems the best of the current crop for sainthood including his ability to detect a ghost/soul, with the likes of Shiro and (if he had died) Michael being more on course for becoming venerated martyrs (being still alive, Michael might well make the road to sainthood at some point). Harry also could easily become a martyr given his tendency to act as a Knight-of-the-Cross-bonus.
Oh, no not what I meant at all, just meant that Uriel seems to communicate directly (confirmed by Michael) while I dont see TWG bothering to actually communicate anything with her, s/he'd arrange things and omnisciently Know how she would react
I think that covers pretty much what many of us have said..Hmm, well, I didn't see it written out that way, but I suppose others may have considered that to fall under the 'any truely Holy Man' option.
I didn't mean directly with Mab, but consider both Harry's soul walk about, something Mab seemingly had to agree to at Uriel's insistence.. And in Small Favor when Mab admits that that time anyway her and Uriel were playing on the same side against a common foe... In any of these matters Uriel cannot act unilaterally, he has to have orders or approval from the Boss.. Uriel communicates this to Mab, so by chain of command she also gets her orders from the top.. Like in the military, the general doesn't directly order the private but the private still gets the orders down the food chain..I don't know, seems to me like Uriel (if playing by the rules) has plenty of leeway. I don't think he has to go back to TWG and get official approval before he acts; he knows Divine Law as clearly as Toot knows Winter Law (else he'd inevitably mess up and Fall without meaning to).
Hmm, well, I didn't see it written out that way, but I suppose others may have considered that to fall under the 'any truely Holy Man' option.
I don't know, seems to me like Uriel (if playing by the rules) has plenty of leeway. I don't think he has to go back to TWG and get official approval before he acts; he knows Divine Law as clearly as Toot knows Winter Law (else he'd inevitably mess up and Fall without meaning to).
Plus, it's unclear if Mab ever got 'orders' in the process. Seems to me like she's an ally agreeing on a plan rather than a 'private' getting orders.
Ya, Im firmly of the opinion that Uriel and Mab never had any direct communication. He acted, she was simply forced to REact. But she had no say and no opportunity or offer to Agree or Disagree.
"Oh the Quiet One angered us, sending your essence out unprotected. Had he been incorrect, I would have
been robbed of my knight, and the old monster of his custodian."
Wasn't there a conversation between Harry and Nick where Harry says something like "You're not Saint". And Nick responds with, "well not yet anyway."Yaaa, I just cant get behind that. Saint needs to be a more exclusive club; being /pope/ doesnt even guarantee you become a Saint.
I'm only mentioning this because there may be something there too.
On a definition note, and I know many believe that upper and lower case use is a pain, but ....
A saint is anyone who believes.
A Saint is anyone the Church has recognized as having 'For Sure' gone to heaven and is WITH God.
Not really helpful in our conversation, but, ALL believers are saints.
Yaaa, I just cant get behind that. Saint needs to be a more exclusive club; being /pope/ doesnt even guarantee you become a Saint.
As to Nic's comment, my working theory has always been that he anticipates a change of Management in Heaven, at which point it would be His side that is declaring/defining Sainthood
I agree, and that's why there is the distinction between upper and lower case S for saints. Per St. Paul, all believers are saints.
Only those who are recognized as having actually attained heaven are called Saints.
I agree, and that's why there is the distinction between upper and lower case S for saints. Per St. Paul, all believers are saints.aha, but you couldnt tell which I was talking about simply because it started the sentence!! This is ANARCHY!! :P
Only those who are recognized as having actually attained heaven are called Saints.
My proposal: let's ignore labels for now. The question is, if TWG wanted to provide Divine Intervention to help take out someone like a Blampire, what would they need? Is TWG (and his organization) limited to only acting through the wielders of the Swords? Can they go beyond that? Per the rules of thaumaturgy, External Power requires a sympathetic connection. What kind of person can be used to channel a Miracle? Would being a conduit to a Miracle change the nature of the person in the future? The way they act (probably increases their faith)?I like where your head is at, but I sorta feel funny about trying to model Sponsored magic as a Thaumaturgic effect.
I don't recommend spending too much time focusing on the real world definition of a saint: the main requirement is being dead. This whole topic sprung up due to a WoJ about Saints (+ mobs) vs. Blampire Elders. I'm assuming we're all working from the idea that the Saints are involved in fighting the Blampires before their death, no? Or, at the very least, up to the moment of their death...
My proposal: let's ignore labels for now. The question is, if TWG wanted to provide Divine Intervention to help take out someone like a Blampire, what would they need? Is TWG (and his organization) limited to only acting through the wielders of the Swords? Can they go beyond that? Per the rules of thaumaturgy, External Power requires a sympathetic connection. What kind of person can be used to channel a Miracle? Would being a conduit to a Miracle change the nature of the person in the future? The way they act (probably increases their faith)?
From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane. By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.
I like where your head is at, but I sorta feel funny about trying to model Sponsored magic as a Thaumaturgic effect.
From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane. By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.
Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?I'd say so. I'd say Thomas just "deciding" to follow Harry around in PG may have been TWG's influence. I mean why else would he do it. Or Molly, when she "snuck in" to the morgue, but was able to pull the pleasure death. Or, when Harry got pissed, ground out his energy and it ended up blowing Murphy's car up. All coincidences, but all could be the influence of TWG.
Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?
On the other hand, he was also at exactly the right place and the right time to babysit Michael's kids when Michael and Harry needed to rescue Charity in Grave Peril. That does seem to qualify as Divine Intervention, even if it isn't sponsored magic per se.I think it would depend on the actual nature of the manipulation, I'd suspect, because Free Will and Choice are paramount to TWG's side. The babysitting bit (or any of the Knight coocidence events) would (I suspect) get a pass because those individuals have, as part of their Faith, given TWG /permission/ to do such things. I know the wording of my own Baptism back in the day would fit, and I suspect Confirmations and whatnot are pretty similar, and the Vows of a priest even moreso. But on the flip-side, if TWG were to fiddle with weather or the timing of a Traffic light or something that might be allowable, if it doesnt negate anyone's Choices.
My first instinct usually is to assume the same rules apply for everyone, and the differences are a function of scale, rather than different rules for different people. So, I'm basically proposing that while Father Forthill can serve as an instrument for TWG, someone whoes personality and lifestyle isn't as aligned with TWG couldn't have been moved to be in the right place at the right time.
Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?
...huh, after writing that, I suddenly realize that I'm basically applying the Fae model to TWG, aren't I? By which I mean, that Fae Queens can't kill people who aren't somehow connected to the Courts.
Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?With Shiro gone, I dont think Id trust anyone currently on stage with the Grace. However I dont think it would be cosmically limited by compatibility, given his level of Power I think Uriel could cram it into whomever he chose, From Mister to Persephone to a Nic himself if he really needed to. The only limit I suspect there might be is that the bearer of a Grace must have/be a Soul, so mortals yes but NN spirits likely would not qualify.
With Shiro gone, I dont think Id trust anyone currently on stage with the Grace. However I dont think it would be cosmically limited by compatibility, given his level of Power I think Uriel could cram it into whomever he chose, From Mister to Persephone to a Nic himself if he really needed to. The only limit I suspect there might be is that the bearer of a Grace must have/be a Soul, so mortals yes but NN spirits likely would not qualify.
Which begs the question of whether Mab, Marcone, Hades, and even Nic were being manipulated by a higher power so that the relics could be retrieved by Harry?
stilleto929: There have been 3 times that Nicodemus has told Dresden that time is running out. In Death Masks, after capturing Harry, Nicodemus says, “Your history indicates that you are too dangerous to leave alive, I’m afraid – and I am on a schedule.” Then in Small Favor, in the aquarium, Nicodemus says, “…tempus fugit. For all of us.” Then again in Small Favor, in the boat, Nicodemus says, “Dresden, I truly regret this necessity, but time is growing short. I must act…” WHY would an effectively-immortal person be so worried about time?!? The first instance can be explained by having a plane to catch, but the others seem…unusual. Is Nicodemus’s concern about time significant? I.e. showing to the reader that he believes something BIG will happen soon, and he has to be ready? Or is this just a conversational ploy to move the plot along? Would appreciate any info you could give us about this issue. Thanks in advance! - Stiletto (Celia)
Jim: The clock is ticking, and the clued people know it. /Especially/ to someone a couple of thousand years old, it really feels like we've already hit the two minute warning.
I agree with most of this, however I doubt it would be risked even with someone whom Uriel or any archangel had absolute trust in unless the need for it was extreme.. Which begs the question of whether Mab, Marcone, Hades, and even Nic were being manipulated by a higher power so that the relics could be retrieved by Harry?
I wouldn't say manipulated, when it comes to Mab and Hades, or even Nic. The WoJ below suggests pretty strongly to me that they all know the BAT is coming, and all the big players are doing high risk, high reward plans precisely because they know they will be needing things like the Relics and the faithsaber in the (from their perspective) very near future.I find myself agreeing with both of these sentiments...I think the line between Encouraged and Manipulated gets fuzzy for several reasons, you can never be really sure whats coincidence or not, and have to take it on Faith (see what I did there?) that it doesnt cross the Free Will line. Not to mention that Mab and Tinfoil hats go together like Tanks and Hula Dancers. 8)
I'd like to butt in at this point and say this - why is the assumption that a Saint can only be a worshipper of the Abrahamic Almighty? There could well be a Horus worshipping saint, or (tickles my fancy, this one) a mercenary who doubles as a saint because he's the purest of Odin worshippers.
I'd like to butt in at this point and say this - why is the assumption that a Saint can only be a worshipper of the Abrahamic Almighty? There could well be a Horus worshipping saint, or (tickles my fancy, this one) a mercenary who doubles as a saint because he's the purest of Odin worshippers.
I wouldn't disagree with this because there are "saints" in all religions and some who don't believe in anything..Are there any, specifically? I fully expect there to be some sort of empowered "Holy Man" in most if not all religions, but I cannot actually think of any specifically comparable to Saint (who is more an empowered champion than simply a Holy Man). My first thought was possibly a Buddha (as in the title) but that is a far more Internalized ascension, whereas my understanding of a Saint is fairly specifically Empowered by their deity.
Are there any, specifically? I fully expect there to be some sort of empowered "Holy Man" in most if not all religions, but I cannot actually think of any specifically comparable to Saint (who is more an empowered champion than simply a Holy Man). My first thought was possibly a Buddha (as in the title) but that is a far more Internalized ascension, whereas my understanding of a Saint is fairly specifically Empowered by their deity.
Yeah, but what does Empowered mean exactly? I see no distinction between what you call an Internalized ascension and an external one, both would tell you they are Empowered by their deity to do or become whatever they have become..By "Internalized" I mean it's something that is 100% credited to the mortal themselves, as opposed to an investiture of Power from an external source. No deity is ever given credit for reaching a state of Buddha, that's considered the Mortal's accomplishment.
Like I said earlier, I'm kinda partial to assuming all pantheons play by the same rules, even if they appear to be playing different games. And there does appear to be some similarities to what happens to Knights of the Sword and what happens when one is ridden by a Loa in the Vodoun religion...I agree with not making anything particularly specific to a given religion, but Im still not behind expanding the definition so far, to the point where it applies to anyone with some kind of spiritual significance, regardless of source or characteristics.
By "Internalized" I mean it's something that is 100% credited to the mortal themselves, as opposed to an investiture of Power from an external source. No deity is ever given credit for reaching a state of Buddha, that's considered the Mortal's accomplishment.
But I dont think we can go quite so far as to say any time a mortal gets Power from a NN source it qualifies them as "Saint". Saint cannot simply be a generic Powerup, otherwise a Coin or a Curse or Knight Mantle or a possessing Spirit would all qualify.
I agree with not making anything particularly specific to a given religion, but Im still not behind expanding the definition so far, to the point where it applies to anyone with some kind of spiritual significance, regardless of source or characteristics
Yes, I agree that the term "saint" has to be applied with more discretion, however I disagree about what you are saying about the holy men who attain the title or state of Buddha..Ill bite, why?
Then just what are you saying? With in the Dresden universe, keeping to that for a moment, we've known five Holy Sword holders, Shiro, Sanya, Murphy, Michael, and the latest, Butters, by your definition of sainthood, of these five, who is likely to be one? Since he is the only one of the ones we've known that has died, do you think Shiro will be declared one or is an undeclared one?On that Im still stuck at the same place I was at the beginning, which is that we seem to have a WOJ that says a Knight of the Cross and a Saint are both separate types of living champions. So being a Knight alone is not enough (or rather not the particular requirement), despite that seeming the most likely/obvious answer. And the historic definition of Saint is largely out as well, as it originated with Martyrs, specifically, and had always been a Postmortem honor.
And Forthill? Like I said, there's an Angel ready to escort his soul (and willing to face off against Lucifer for it, if necessary), should he die, and he's served as a conduit for Divine Intervention in the past. Harry uses him as a supplier of Holy Water capable of hurting Blampires.There's an angel ready to escort his soul, sure, but we have no idea how common a thing that is (Some tropes have everyone getting such a psychopomp, does the Almighty have limited staffing?). Meanwhile Father Forthill has not ever shown any actual supernatural Power beyond havng his car break down on him or vaguely sensing the presence of a ghost (Unless you count making Holy Water which any priest can do). I think it's a huge leap to say he can act as a Conduit of Divine Intervention when he's never so much as made a cross glow that I recall (which btw wouldnt be enough either, to me).
Do you think he could lead a mob to take out an Elder of the Black Court?
There's an angel ready to escort his soul, sure, but we have no idea how common a thing that is (Some tropes have everyone getting such a psychopomp, does the Almighty have limited staffing?).
Harry didn't get an angel. He got a detective, instead. There were other deaths in Ghost Story (and other near-death moments), and only Forthill had his own escort loafing around where Dresden could see (this is where I would expect neurovore to jump in and point out that there's no reason to assume angels have to be visible to Dresden, and that this angel was possibly only visible because Mr. Sunshine wanted that conversation to happen).Why bother, when you did a great job all on your own? That pretty much covers it. 8)
Why bother, when you did a great job all on your own? That pretty much covers it. 8)
Personally I think Harry actually is the most likely example we've seen so far, if we are to assume that Knights are something distinct from Saints. Think about it: He technically redeemed a chunk/ghost of a fallen Angel. That impressed an Archangel enough that said VP of Creation invested the Powers of Heaven in him, directly. Following this, Harry has had severl direct Conversations with that Archangel, two of which he initiated himself.
[Proven Personal Fortitude in the Face of Evil/Temptation] + [Granted Powers of Heaven] + [Direct intercession with Creatures of Divinity] = Saint?
I think you are missing one component of saintliness. The belief in a power greater than yourself. In a God, or god. Yes, Harry has great faith in his magic, but he's not treating such belief as an act of faith. Where as the man (or woman) who is leading a group of people against a black court vampire has that faith. Much like Charity and Michael.
I think you are missing one component of saintliness. The belief in a power greater than yourself. In a God, or god. Yes, Harry has great faith in his magic, but he's not treating such belief as an act of faith. Where as the man (or woman) who is leading a group of people against a black court vampire has that faith. Much like Charity and Michael.Not missing it actually, Im actively discounting it. If we can have a Knight of Elvis, a Jedi Knight, and a Knight of the "...Somethings that might be benevolent?", I dont think you actually have to believe in TWG for him to Believe in you.
Not missing it actually, Im actively discounting it. If we can have a Knight of Elvis, a Jedi Knight, and a Knight of the "...Somethings that might be benevolent?", I dont think you actually have to believe in TWG for him to Believe in you.
And I never said any of those three were saints.No, but my point is that so far there has been nothing to indicate that TWG needs it's agents to be the sort of active, dedicated, and/or traditional Believers the way you describe, since none of the examples we DO have of the TWG investing Power in a mortal seem to require it (either via Swords or Soulfire or elsewise). What you are describing is a wholly new mechanic. Which is certainly possible, but not something Im willing to accept as a given.
No, but my point is that so far there has been nothing to indicate that TWG needs it's agents to be the sort of active, dedicated, and/or traditional Believers the way you describe, since none of the examples we DO have of the TWG investing Power in a mortal seem to require it (either via Swords or Soulfire or elsewise). What you are describing is a wholly new mechanic. Which is certainly possible, but not something Im willing to accept as a given.
Yet we are trying to apply a label that already has a meaning to something that may or may not be the same.More that we are trying to define a label in the DV with as minimal as possible influence from otherwise unrelated sources.
More that we are trying to define a label in the DV with as minimal as possible influence from otherwise unrelated sources.
I think you are missing one component of saintliness. The belief in a power greater than yourself. In a God, or god. Yes, Harry has great faith in his magic, but he's not treating such belief as an act of faith. Where as the man (or woman) who is leading a group of people against a black court vampire has that faith. Much like Charity and Michael.
I saw this topic when checking the forums a bit ago and didn't delve into it mostly because any speculation I've got would delve into actual real world definitions of a saint which I'm not entirely comfortable with... Also, I've had a LOT going on lately and little keyboard access (I suck at typing things up on my phone).What power indeed? Does it come down to a point of view? I mean like wizards have power, wield it, but does that make them saints? Harry says he isn't religious in the classical sense, but he does have faith in his magic.. Does that make him a saint? Some would say yes, others based on a number of religious beliefs might say, no. Does it take more for sainthood? Again, saints in the religious sense, usually are declared after they die and miracles are attributed to them.. Okay, but that isn't what one thinks about when we talk about the kind of power wielded to take out the Blampire Elders.. Saint Patrick however was able to drive the snakes out of Ireland or at least make them disappear along with doing a very effective Loop curse.. So he might be one of the capital "S" saints who could actually wield power in their lifetime. Or was Saint Patrick actually a powerful wizard who decided to become a priest and later was promoted to bishop?
I'd really like to join the conversation, but want to do it justice by reading all 6 pages.
I'll say now that
- I think it was mentioned in Death Masks that among Nickodemus' achievements he had killed several "Saints" separately from the Knights he'd killed and...
- I guess in the DF, what makes a capital S saint like Jim mentioned might have helped with the eradication of the Blampire Elders is that they wield Power. The question becomes what Power, which is something I'd want to discuss after reading everyone else's input.
I'll say now that
- I think it was mentioned in Death Masks that among Nickodemus' achievements he had killed several "Saints" separately from the Knights he'd killed and...
“These marks,” he murmured. “Thorned Namshiel’s strangler spell.” His eyes drew a line from the last apparent mark on my neck down to the duster pocket that the bag of coins had been in. “Ah. The strangulation was the distraction. He picked your pocket with one of the other wires before he was incapacitated. He did that to Saint…someone-or-other, in Glasgow in the thirteenth century.”
The line I'm remembering was when Harry asked Father Forthill about him in chapter 27 of DM (page 235 of my ebook). Unfortunately I remembered it wrong and it makes no mention of Saints.
There's a really long WoJ from WAY back in the day on the LKH forums that on these forums would border on TT for religious reasons. It goes heavily into his ideas on how faith sponsorship might work in repelling demons/vampires, accounting for different levels and kinds of faith in a higher power. I think it's highly relevant to the discussion of "what Power," but I'll provide it once I'm done reading everyone else's posts and write my own, which I intend to make thick and meaty.
Yet we are trying to apply a label that already has a meaning to something that may or may not be the same.
We may wish to use a "proof is in the pudding" mentality, and define Saints based on their ability to perform miracles. What separates Miracles from Magic? Magic appears to require some level of aptitude and investment from the one person doing the working. Miracles could potentially be defined as "magic coming from an external source". Of course, we know from magical theory that this would fall under thaumaturgy, that is, magic from a distance, instead of evocation.
Putting it together: a Saint is someone who can act as a thaumaturgic channel for a divine being who chooses to exert their power at a distance.
From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
- Grave Peril: When both Susan and Michael managed to ignite their crosses with holy fire to repel Mavra (something I'm not sure Susan could have usually managed).
- All sorts of neat stuff that happens to people wielding the swords. I suspect that's more the relics in question acting as thaumaturgic links, rather than the person, though.
Thoughts?
I think you are missing one component of saintliness. The belief in a power greater than yourself. In a God, or god. Yes, Harry has great faith in his magic, but he's not treating such belief as an act of faith. Where as the man (or woman) who is leading a group of people against a black court vampire has that faith. Much like Charity and Michael.
You are asking me to make a very large choice."
"Yes," Uriel said.
"With potentially horrible consequences."
Uriel looked at him with sympathetic eyes and nodded.
"Can you tell me what is at stake, that I should risk this?" (Uriel's Grace)
Uriel frowned, considering the question for a moment. Then he said, "A soul."
Michael raised his eyebrows. "Oh," he said. "You should have said that from the beginning."
So there is my definition of a DF Saint of Power. Someone who has incredibly steadfast faith in a "Higher Power." This person has become a Champion of the Higher Power, and thus they become a channel whereby their power influences the mortal realm, doing holy deeds and miracles.
The line I'm remembering was when Harry asked Father Forthill about him in chapter 27 of DM (page 235 of my ebook). Unfortunately I remembered it wrong and it makes no mention of Saints.(http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/chuck-norris-thumbs-up-approves-Dcsaum.jpg)
There's a really long WoJ from WAY back in the day on the LKH forums that on these forums would border on TT for religious reasons. It goes heavily into his ideas on how faith sponsorship might work in repelling demons/vampires, accounting for different levels and kinds of faith in a higher power. I think it's highly relevant to the discussion of "what Power," but I'll provide it once I'm done reading everyone else's posts and write my own, which I intend to make thick and meaty.
So there is my definition of a DF Saint of Power. Someone who has incredibly steadfast faith in a "Higher Power." This person has become a Champion of the Higher Power, and thus they become a channel whereby their power influences the mortal realm, doing holy deeds and miracles.That works for me in the broad strokes, but Im getting tangled up trying to line that up with our examples; depending on your definition of "steadfast faith" that could still apply to most of the poll list. Does "Channel Power" mean white fire blessings like Michael does occasionally, or just getting a glow out of a cross? Soulfire? Does "Steadfast Faith" need to be real Belief like Michael's, or just hopeful cooperation like Shiro, Sanya and Harry? It is a personal Faith thing, or might ascension to Sainthood be dependent on the supernatural Enemy you face (as the LHK WOJ might imply)?
Serack,
Let me divert to a side question real quick, because this is something that has been bothering me. In GP Michael did not have possession of the Sword, but all his other normal/familiar Knight perks (divine babysitting service, anti-rampire touch, Power-prayer, etc) were still operating. So, is this an example of Michael having Power that is independent of his Knighthood, or is this an indication that the Bond between a Knight and his Sword is more lasting that just Not Holding it (or somebody else misusing it) Does the Sponsorship end at the hilt of the sword?
You are asking me to make a very large choice."
"Yes," Uriel said.
"With potentially horrible consequences."
Uriel looked at him with sympathetic eyes and nodded.
"Can you tell me what is at stake, that I should risk this?" (Uriel's Grace)
Uriel frowned, considering the question for a moment. Then he said, "A soul."
Michael raised his eyebrows. "Oh," he said. "You should have said that from the beginning."
That works for me in the broad strokes, but Im getting tangled up trying to line that up with our examples; depending on your definition of "steadfast faith" that could still apply to most of the poll list. Does "Channel Power" mean white fire blessings like Michael does occasionally, or just getting a glow out of a cross? Soulfire? Does "Steadfast Faith" need to be real Belief like Michael's, or just hopeful cooperation like Shiro, Sanya and Harry? It is a personal Faith thing, or might ascension to Sainthood be dependent on the supernatural Enemy you face (as the LHK WOJ might imply)?
We may wish to use a "proof is in the pudding" mentality, and define Saints based on their ability to perform miracles. What separates Miracles from Magic? Magic appears to require some level of aptitude and investment from the one person doing the working. Miracles could potentially be defined as "magic coming from an external source". Of course, we know from magical theory that this would fall under thaumaturgy, that is, magic from a distance, instead of evocation.
Putting it together: a Saint is someone who can act as a thaumaturgic channel for a divine being who chooses to exert their power at a distance.
From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
- Grave Peril: When both Susan and Michael managed to ignite their crosses with holy fire to repel Mavra (something I'm not sure Susan could have usually managed).
- All sorts of neat stuff that happens to people wielding the swords. I suspect that's more the relics in question acting as thaumaturgic links, rather than the person, though.
Thoughts?
By the way, I also want to say that although I find this line of theorizing very helpful, it bothers me because I can interpret it to mean that Proven Guilty Harry was a Saint of the Summer Court when he used Summer Fire to blow off half of the Winter Well Spring. Contemplation of Harry channeling Winter power brings up similar issues. IMO, my first requisite in reply 98 is a must for defining a Champion Saint, in that it requires faith and dedication to the HiP, something Harry lacks in both instances.
- An absolute dedication to their faith in the "Higher Power" (hear after called "HiP"*) and absolute dedication of their life towards their saintly mission for the HiP.
- Demonstrated Sponsorship from a HiP resulting in ass kicking, that is wholly attributed and attributable to the HiP's will channeled through the Champion Saint and their faith.
By the way, I also want to say that although I find this line of theorizing very helpful, it bothers me because I can interpret it to mean that Proven Guilty Harry was a Saint of the Summer Court when he used Summer Fire to blow off half of the Winter Well Spring. Contemplation of Harry channeling Winter power brings up similar issues. IMO, my first requisite in reply 98 is a must for defining a Champion Saint, in that it requires faith and dedication to the HiP, something Harry lacks in both instances.
By the way, I also want to say that although I find this line of theorizing very helpful, it bothers me because I can interpret it to mean that Proven Guilty Harry was a Saint of the Summer Court when he used Summer Fire to blow off half of the Winter Well Spring. Contemplation of Harry channeling Winter power brings up similar issues. IMO, my first requisite in reply 98 is a must for defining a Champion Saint, in that it requires faith and dedication to the HiP, something Harry lacks in both instances.Or perhaps we shouldn't using the "saint label" at all? I also disagree about Harry, he does have faith, that was demonstrated in Storm Front when his pentacle acted like a Cross would against Bianca because for him it is a symbol of his faith in his magic. Harry is dedicated to that faith.. Not sure what you mean by HiP? Higher Power?
Or perhaps we shouldn't using the "saint label" at all? I also disagree about Harry, he does have faith, that was demonstrated in Storm Front when his pentacle acted like a Cross would against Bianca because for him it is a symbol of his faith in his magic. Harry is dedicated to that faith.. Not sure what you mean by HiP? Higher Power?I really dont think Charity makes it to the level Id expect. I know she is able to make a Cross glow, but so was Susan and I dont think anyone really expects her to be a Saint. If a relative commoner like her can do it, it's not the sort of rare Empowerment that fits the Champion of Man image, at least for me (I hate it when I dont have a b3etter argument than "It doesnt Feel right")
THIS.
Saint, or saint, implies a faith in a religious manner. Harry's faith is not in a religious manner. His use of Summer Fire was not placing faith in summer, and being their champion, it was a tool he picked up and used.
On the other hand, living saints, the kind who lead mobs against monsters have their religious faith AS the source of anything their higher power wants to accomplish.
I would say that Michael, independent of his role as a KotC, is a saint. The kind who could and would lead a mob. I believe that Charity is the same, though her faith is a bit more .... grounded, so maybe not.
Applying the label to other situations can apply, but you have to remember that the basic label has to do with religious faith. So, Harry's use of MAGIC in SK is saint-like, but it was not Saintly.
Did I just muddy the waters more?
I really dont think Charity makes it to the level Id expect. I know she is able to make a Cross glow, but so was Susan and I dont think anyone really expects her to be a Saint. If a relative commoner like her can do it, it's not the sort of rare Empowerment that fits the Champion of Man image, at least for me (I hate it when I dont have a b3etter argument than "It doesnt Feel right")
Or perhaps we shouldn't using the "saint label" at all?
I also disagree about Harry, he does have faith, that was demonstrated in Storm Front when his pentacle acted like a Cross would against Bianca because for him it is a symbol of his faith in his magic. Harry is dedicated to that faith..
Not sure what you mean by HiP? Higher Power?I was explicit in what I meant by that.
QuantusI suspect a similar future path, to be honest. Though I could see a scene where Somebody informs a dumbfounded Harry that he's been a Saint for years, and was just too busy being afraid he was a Monster.
Your #2 is interesting. I've suspected for a while now that Harry isn't a full on Saint, but that by the time the story's over, he may be, and this might be the mechanism. Although I think submittal to the Will of the HiP may still be key for a true saint.
Holy PUP! I just realized that there is a completely separate possibility Ive neglected. Ive been framing the question as "what would qualify /a mortal/ as a Saint". What if that's not how it works, and you cannot Become a Saint any more than You can Become an Angel? What if instead Saint is the human Equivalents of a Foo Dog, a "a celestial being which chooses to give up its divinity (and immortality) to serve and protect in the mortal world. Part of being mortal is having offspring, who share in their progenitor's power." What if Mouse is the closest thing to a Saint, or the descendant of one?
How do you all feel about the notion of Saintly bloodlines? Defining Sainthood more akin to a diluted nephilim?
Can we say there's a class of Sponsored Clerics, of which Saint is the subclass for TWG's peeps, and Harry's faith in magic makes him a Cleric of Magic?I feel like this is a Rabbit hole we might be best to avoid. For me it would come down to the ill-defined Line between religious-Magic (which supposedly exists in the Council) and actual Faith Energy which Bob cannot perceive. The Fae Knight, for example, is being sponsored by an external source but is being fed the same Life Energy that Harry and Lea and everyone breathing uses, as opposed to the Sword stuff or supposedly a lot of the Real Soul-fire stuff.
I feel like this is a Rabbit hole we might be best to avoid. For me it would come down to the ill-defined Line between religious-Magic (which supposedly exists in the Council) and actual Faith Energy which Bob cannot perceive. The Fae Knight, for example, is being sponsored by an external source but is being fed the same Life Energy that Harry and Lea and everyone breathing uses, as opposed to the Sword stuff or supposedly a lot of the Real Soul-fire stuff.I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity. Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system. They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.
I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity. Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system. They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.That Im entirely fine wiht, as those are all still firmly on the Religious Faith side of the line. It would be with non-religious, magic-based Sponsors like Winter/Mab that I saw the rabbithole in.
i.e. one Saint might turn water into wine, while a Walī might not be able to based on his beliefs (unless he's an Alevi Muslim)
Harry's faith in magic makes him a Cleric of Magic?
Would you say that Magic makes a Choice when it answers Dresden's "prayers". If he does, then it's still a Miracle rather than Magic, and I see no problem with it. If there's nothing on the other side that judges the prayer and finds it worthy, then I don't know if I can buy into the idea of a Cleric of Magic.What you're talking about is sponsored magic versus unsponsored magic. For sponsored magic, someone asks for something (prayer/ritual/etc) and a Power either makes its happen, or gives them the power to do it themselves. For unsponsored magic, someone either uses their own power, or uses the power readily available to everyone, to make it happen.
On the other hand, WoJ is that Morgan's Athame isn't exactly sentient, but it's still both powerful and dangerous, so maybe I'm asking for something that isn't really necessary here...
So Harry's dedicated to his faith in the POWERS of creation, but he doesn't submit to them. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that he directly confronted a fundamental, willed aspect of those very "POWERS" of creation, "a fundamental power of the world" CD Ch. 32 and although he paid it respect, he absolutely refused to submit to it in when he threw off the will of Mother Winter in her cabin.
But I could defy absolutely anyone.
I could lift my will against that of anything, and know that the fight might be lopsided, but never hopeless. And by thunder, I was not going to allow anyone's will to stretch me out on the floor like a lamb to slaughter.
Bob is brilliant, but there are some things that he just doesn't get. His definition was a good place to get started, but it was also something that was perhaps too comfortably quantifiable. The soul isn't something you can weigh and measure. It's more than just one thing. Because soulfire interacts with souls in a way that I'm not sure anyone understands, it stands to reason soulfire isn't just one thing either.
I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---against the will of an ancient being of darkness, terror, and malice, a fundamental power of the world.
And the bonds and the will of Mother Winter could not constrain me.. There was a sharp, shimmering tone, like metal under stress and beginning to fail, but more musical, and a blinding white light that washed away the darkness and dazzled my eyes.
I argue that he did submit to the powers of creation, that is why he was able to break the bonds.. If he merely respected them as you say, then in my opinion he would have merely turbocharged his spell or will to break the bonds, but I don't think that would have been enough to do it.. He says outright that those powers are not quantifiable, and he took that understanding and cast it with everything he believed, was, and will ever be.. That broke the bonds... And note how special that moment was so unlike anything else we've seen with Harry pitting his will against something more powerful than himself...
The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform in my opinion... It wasn't your garden variety wizard's spell..
I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity. Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system. They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.
i.e. one Saint might turn water into wine, while a Walī might not be able to based on his beliefs (unless he's an Alevi Muslim)
I see that categorically differently. That is not faith in an external higher power. That is faith in the power of everything he "believed, was and will ever be." Himself. His. Own. Personal. Power. Not power derived from something bigger than himself. No this power IS HIMSELF, his very being was cast into the crafting.
Yah, that's not garden variety wizardy, but it's not faith in the power of something on high either, and thus absolutely not a demonstration of sainthood.
Another tack: I'm not well versed on the RL cannonization process, but it is my understanding that it requires people attributing miracles to someone already dead and in heaven. The Miracle transpires because someone prayed to the candidate Saint, who is already in Heaven. Because they are already in Heaven, they are able to intercede directly to God on the prayer's behalf. The miracle happens, proving that the candidate Saint is in fact in Heaven talking to God. The critical factor for me in this discussion is that it's God who performs the miracle, due to the Saint's intercession, not the Saint performing the miracle.
So again. When you say "The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform" I must disagree. Vehemently.
" Do you think you haven't struck a blow for the light,. Warrior?"
"Harry," Jake said, sighing. "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all. Not yet, anyway. Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one. Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."
"But Michael and I are literal guys," I said.
Jake actually laughed. "Yeah? Do you think we angled to have you brought into this situation because we needed you to beat someone up?"
But what about in the saint's lifetime? I perhaps shouldn't have said it was the kind of miracle saints perform, because they really don't, they are instruments.. But it still comes back to faith and belief..
"Father," he murmured, humbly and with no drama whatsoever. "Father, please help my friend. Father of light, banish the darkness that he may see. Father of truth, expose the lies. Father of mercy, ease his pain. Father of love, honor this good man's heart. Amen."
Michael's hand felt suddenly red-hot, and I felt power burning in the air around him--not magic, the magic I worked with every day. This was something different, something more ancient, more potent, more pure. This was the power of faith, and as that heat settled into the spaces behind my eyes, something cracked and shattered inside my thoughts.
Back to the event in Cold Days with Mother Winter, I think you miss the point I was trying to make. If Harry was just pulling power from himself as you say, then he merely would of cast a spell and turbo charged it with soul fire and the bonds would have broken.. But that isn't what happened.. He now acknowledges that the soul is something more, that shows spiritual growth and why the moment is so beautiful.
In case you missed my point earlier, the "something more" his soul is would be his very "Being." Himself. Who and What he is. Which he worded as "I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---" His power came from him. Special yes. Saintly no.
"Everything he believed," is the key word here.. Faith, belief, that is what separates Harry from the other wizards he knows.I kind of feel like there isnt really much support for Either of those assertions. Harry is not, by any rational definition Ive heard, a Man of Faith; he's shown instances of faith, but it is by no means a defining trait of his. And we have Zero information on what sort of Faith the other wizards have, aside from Harry repeated mentions most do not actively reject all the religious trapping of Magic the way he does; otherwise LTW is the closest thing to a data point we have, and he definitely involves his deities more (if not full Blessing Way clergy).
"Everything he believed," is the key word here.. Faith, belief, that is what separates Harry from the other wizards he knows.
"What makes you say that Harry?"
"The way magic works. Whenever you do something with it, it comes from inside you. Wizards have to focus on what they're trying to do, visualize it, believe in it, to make it work. You can't make something happen that isn't part of you, inside.
Belief being a foundation of a wizard's magic is universal, not special to Harry. This was established in the second chapter of the series, and has been emphasized multiple times since.
"Everything I was" included much more than his beliefs (he gave a whole list!), and any faith he has that is relevant to sainthood (what this topic is about) is a very limited portion of "Everything he believed." Focusing on faith and belief as what makes the spell in the CD passage special is WAY overly narrow.
I fear the point of our conversation has drifted, so I want to check back on that. Are you advocating for Harry's status as a Saint based off of your interpretation of this passage? Please make sure I understand what conclusion you advocating. I feel like I'm quibbling over details and the foundational conclusion has drifted while I was looking the other direction.
I kind of feel like there isnt really much support for Either of those assertions. Harry is not, by any rational definition Ive heard, a Man of Faith; he's shown instances of faith, but it is by no means a defining trait of his. And we have Zero information on what sort of Faith the other wizards have, aside from Harry repeated mentions most do not actively reject all the religious trapping of Magic the way he does; otherwise LTW is the closest thing to a data point we have, and he definitely involves his deities more (if not full Blessing Way clergy).
That passage shows spiritual growth, the breaking of the bonds was different. Harry himself admits this, before Ghost Story he simply would have added some soulfire to his spell to break the bonds, this time he dug deeper involving his new understanding about his soul. It doesn't mean that Harry currently is a saint, but he could be headed in that direction.. Here are the facts, Harry consorts on a regular basis with an archangel, ordinary people don't do that, no other wizard that we know of does that... The only ones in the Dresdenverse that seem to are Knights of the Cross, in traditional parlance, having an archangel appear to you at all puts one in the running for sainthood. Harry was made custodian of the Holy Swords, for whatever reason, he is being used as an instrument for the selection of Holy Knights, even one night wonders... In contrast, Murphy claimed to be, but it was a matter of her taking it upon herself, not a job bestowed on her by the Almighty... At the end of Skin Game we see the custodianship returned to Harry.. That is another mark that eventually may lead to his sainthood.. He has managed to reject the influence of a Fallen Angel, and was rewarded with a gift from an archangel, that is another pebble on the side of eventual sainthood. The whole point is there is nothing to disqualify him from someday achieving this status, and lots of evidence that he could be heading in that direction. Becoming a saint isn't just externals or input from Powers on High, it is also about internals, if you've read anything about the life of saints, much of their struggles are about them, the internals, and how that affects their relationship with God.
I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---against the will of an ancient being of darkness, terror, and malice, a fundamental power of the world.
Here are the facts, Harry consorts on a regular basis with an archangel, ordinary people don't do that, no other wizard that we know of does that... The only ones in the Dresdenverse that seem to are Knights of the Cross, in traditional parlance, having an archangel appear to you at all puts one in the running for sainthood.
Most of the older wizards have got their own crazy background of powerups which they do not advertise. Listens-To-Wind's shapeshifting isn't purely a matter of wizardly skill (though his healing abilities are), for example.
But here's the key thing about people of power in the Dresden universe (and in the real world): the truly dangerous folks do not advertise. Not ever. They have no need to show off, and constantly displaying how scary they are would be counter to their own interests. [/snip]
All the senior wizards have got something up their sleeve, and every single one of them is hiding it from all the others. If they don't know about it, they can't plan for it, and the "knowledge is power" wizard crowd is all about planning for things.
But we are coming up on the time when people are going to have their backs to the wall and we're going to start seeing what they've got. And I've been looking forward to writing it for nearly twenty years. >:)
Harry was made custodian of the Holy Swords, for whatever reason, he is being used as an instrument for the selection of Holy Knights, even one night wonders...
The key part of that sentence is "that we know of".
Hm, that brings up an interesting question in my mind: was the original Merlin a Saint?
I'll give you a Doyalist thing that makes the overall story arc less likely to end with him as a Saint. Jim has explicitly stated that the story outline had three possibilities for the power Harry could have reached for to save the day in Changes. The relevant one is Lasciel's coin. He's even shared an entire alternate plotline for how things could have rolled out from there. Now it's not impossible for him to turn from that and still become a Saint, (Nick acts like even he has potential) and thus not entirely disqualify him... but it sure makes it less likely in my mind.
Permit me to revisit my reason for bringing up that Cold Days passage. Harry (And WoJ) frequently describes his magic as manipulating the fundamental forces of Nature/Creation, but that these forces in his grasp are non sentient. I would like to posit that a true HiP in the DF is the willed, sentient being that represents the fundamental forces that created reality behind the curtain of mortal ignorance. Now I'm well known for theorizing that this concept of willed creative force has a fractious nature with multiple identities/beings representing aspects of the whole, but the portion of Cold Days passage that I was concerned with when I brought it up in the first place is bolded below:
"Harry," Jake said, sighing. "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all. Not yet, anyway. Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one. Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."
"You can take my body and run it like a puppet. You can kill me. You can curse me and torture me and turn me into an animal."No, she cannot, but that doesn't in any way conflict with what Uriel has told him, just because a Higher Power is guiding doesn't cancel out free will, a saint isn't a puppet, a saint makes choices like anyone else... Sometimes they resign themselves to being an instrument of that Higher Power, but it is still their choice to do so.. Mother Winter is part of creation as are we all, none of that conflicts with who Harry basically is.
"You can destroy me. But you can't make me be anything but what I choose to be, ma'am."
He regarded me as he replaced his spectacles, bright blue eyes steady. "I do. I know you don't much hold with religion, Dresden. But I've come to know you over the years. I think you are a decent man. And God knows His own."Then on the next page after Harry scoffs at the idea that God has him warming up in the bullpen as one of his champions.. Father Forthill answers.
"Perhaps not," Forthill said. "But I think that you are being prepared, nonetheless."
"Prepared?" I asked. "For what? By whom?"
Forthill shook his head. "It's an old man's hunch, that's all. That the things you're facing now are there to prepare you for something greater. Something more."
He could very well have been, but not in the traditional sense..
However Harry didn't chose to take back the coin, did he? He took the least bad of three bad options, not the easiest, the least bad.. It is all about his choices, one reason why Uriel called him a Warrior for the light, because many of Harry's choices made a difference for the better in other people's lives.. No, it isn't cut and dry, there is lots of gray, that is the whole point. Harry could still turn out very badly, or he won't.. Hey Nick may turn and become a saint, I have a sneaking suspicion that is what Uriel is gunning for.
Yes, but you are leaving out the whole point of the soul's walkabout that Uriel sent Harry on.. Who is to say that a Higher Power wasn't behind it, no matter what Harry thinks.. As often said before here, he's been known to be wrong.. And further just because it's Harry's understanding at the time, it doesn't make it true.. As Uriel told him in the Warrior..
This hints of enlightenment for Harry as his soul journeys though life.. My contention his admission that the issue of the soul is a lot more complicated than Bob maintains is yet another small step on that journey.. I doubt he would have said that before Ghost Story.
No, she cannot, but that doesn't in any way conflict with what Uriel has told him, just because a Higher Power is guiding doesn't cancel out free will, a saint isn't a puppet, a saint makes choices like anyone else... Sometimes they resign themselves to being an instrument of that Higher Power, but it is still their choice to do so.. Mother Winter is part of creation as are we all, none of that conflicts with who Harry basically is.
Lastly consider what Father Forthill told Harry in Proven Guilty, even admitting that Harry isn't a religious man.. Harry has just asked him if he really believes that God put him in place to save Molly.
Then on the next page after Harry scoffs at the idea that God has him warming up in the bullpen as one of his champions.. Father Forthill answers.Quote"Perhaps not," Forthill said. "But I think that you are being prepared, nonetheless."
"Prepared?" I asked. "For what? By whom?"
Forthill shook his head. "It's an old man's hunch, that's all. That the things you're facing now are there to prepare you for something greater. Something more."
As my point was a Doyalist one, this isn't nearly as relevant. If Jim had a plan in place for Harry to have become a champion of a Fallen Angel, then it is very Likely that fundamental Arc of the series didn't include him becoming a Saint. The fact that Jim didn't chose that path for Harry doesn't change that. You make me doubt my ability to communicate things that I thought I made clear the first time through.
If Jim had a plan in place for Harry to have become a champion of a Fallen Angel, then it is very Likely that fundamental Arc of the series didn't include him becoming a Saint
One post you emphasize how much he has progressed in his understanding of soulfire, now that I illustrate how his explicit description of soulfire is contrary to a saintly act, you are arguing he didn't know what he was doing. I'll stick with the idea that he knew what he was saying when he described the power as coming from within when he defied his Higher Power.Not at all, he defied Mother Winter, but the Almighty might be above even her pay grade.. Also where did the soulfire originally come from? Harry didn't conger that one up, he knows where that came from.. He also knows now that it is more than what Bob first described to him. Oh, Harry knew what he was doing, and by using it they way he did, I simply do not see it as defying God.. It was with a heck of a lot more understanding than his use of it before when he simply used it to turbocharge his spells with fears that he was using up his soul.. Which may be why Uriel didn't give him a manual with it, there are truths he had to discover for himself.
Also, at the end of the Warrior, Harry tried to bill an Archangel for his deeds. Clearly taking a stance that if he was going to be on the clock for the Almighty, he wanted to be compensated like by any other client. Yah, it was established that he's going to do the right thing anyways. But absolutely not because of his Fidelity to the Almighty.
*rubs head* How is this relevant to my claiming he used soulfire to deny the personification of his faith?
Uriel's smile blossomed again. "You've got it backward, Harry," He said. "You are a soul. You havea body."That realization is a small step on the road to enlightenment, Harry took it in that moment against Mother Winter.
Um, I'm saying Mother Winter is a FUNDAMENTAL part of the powers of creation. Ancient, and part of what shaped it in the first place, definitely not "as are we all."Yes, but that doesn't change how he will be perceived after he dies.
Who Harry is, is the fulcrum that defies higher powers, throwing off their chains and trying to bill them for his work when they assume he will do their Will simply because it's in his nature.
I can envision a Ven diagram of the meaning of my above critical points, and my interpolation of your critical points having commonality. And thus room for peaceful agreement.Leave it at that.
QuoteAlso, at the end of the Warrior, Harry tried to bill an Archangel for his deeds. Clearly taking a stance that if he was going to be on the clock for the Almighty, he wanted to be compensated like by any other client. Yah, it was established that he's going to do the right thing anyways. But absolutely not because of his Fidelity to the Almighty.No, because when Uriel asked Harry if he was going to "bill the Almighty?" Harry answered, "heck no.." He was billing Uriel..
No, because when Uriel asked Harry if he was going to "bill the Almighty?" Harry answered, "heck no.." He was billing Uriel..
Come again?
"You're. . . you're trying to bill the Lord God Almighty?" Jake said, as if he couldn't quite believe it.
"Hel---uh, heck no," I said. "I'm billing you."
But I was pretty sure he was right.That in of itself is an acknowledgement...
So...
Might we be at an impasse because one side assumes Faith is a necessity for Sainthood (and specific Faith in TWG, to be precise) while the other side is focusing on how actions speak louder than words (and than thoughts, and than Faith)?
Because that would be quite funny, if we reproduced one of the great divides of real-world Christianity.
It is also a matter of understanding what faith is... One can be a person of faith without religion.. Harry is on a first name basis with an archangel, he received a gift from that archangel, a gift of fundamental creation, as Bob said, "it's how angels do all their stuff.." Now where did the angels get this gift called soulfire? Harry knows where they got it, and he doesn't question that, not for one moment.. That is what faith is all about.
So...
Might we be at an impasse because one side assumes Faith is a necessity for Sainthood (and specific Faith in TWG, to be precise) while the other side is focusing on how actions speak louder than words (and than thoughts, and than Faith)?
Because that would be quite funny, if we reproduced one of the great divides of real-world Christianity.
My opinion is a Saint is directly connected to TWG. It is probably a person that is empowered by TwG, or Angel to balance the scales. The person in question would also probably have to Trust (real definition of faith) in the power they were granted, similar to Harry's Trust in magic.I think trust is a good word to summarize this debate. Harry knows there's an entity out there that most likely created everything. He just doesn't trust it.
I think trust is a good word to summarize this debate. Harry knows there's an entity out there that most likely created everything. He just doesn't trust it.
That's the big difference between him and Michael. Both can talk about TWG and believe TWG exists, but Michael trusts TWG, and Harry doesn't. That's what faith is all about. Not knowing, not acknowledging, but trusting.
I think trust is a good word to summarize this debate. Harry knows there's an entity out there that most likely created everything. He just doesn't trust it.
That's the big difference between him and Michael. Both can talk about TWG and believe TWG exists, but Michael trusts TWG, and Harry doesn't. That's what faith is all about. Not knowing, not acknowledging, but trusting.
Soulfire isn't faith based magic. It's a power source (his own soul) he was granted the ability to tap into in order to balance the scales. No faith required.
My opinion is a Saint is directly connected to TWG. It is probably a person that is empowered by TwG, or Angel to balance the scales. The person in question would also probably have to Trust (real definition of faith) in the power they were granted, similar to Harry's Trust in magic.
Great way of putting it.
So... could we say that Michael was a Saint in Skin Game, while he was walking around with Uriel's Grace?
Perhaps that's what a Saint is -- the risky (requiring mutual trust) move of temporarily handing an angel's grace to a free-willed mortal.
I think trust is a good word to summarize this debate. Harry knows there's an entity out there that most likely created everything. He just doesn't trust it.That's a really great way to put it. Helps me pin down the difference between Harry and Shiro as well, for all his accidental induction into the faith, I think Shiro had come to entirely trust TWG and their cause. Sanya's getting there Im guessing, we havent really heard from him much since he started carrying the whole weight of it.
That's the big difference between him and Michael. Both can talk about TWG and believe TWG exists, but Michael trusts TWG, and Harry doesn't. That's what faith is all about. Not knowing, not acknowledging, but trusting.
I think that is still a gray area, no faith required perhaps to use it, but to use it well, one has to understand it, where it comes from, and a bit of faith is required there. I think that is why Uriel never gave him a manual with the gift, those things Harry has to find out for himself.
Would you say Harry was having some faith in the Fallen angels when throwing around hellfire?That's a different tack entirely: The Fallen /did/ give Harry a Manual, just one with a very steep subscription cost. :P
That's a different tack entirely: The Fallen /did/ give Harry a Manual, just one with a very steep subscription cost. :P
Uriel's side cares about Faith and Free Will, but the other side only cares as much as they have to, the rest is all Temptation Flavored.
Exactly, the more Harry tossed around hellfire the better as far as the Fallen were concerned. If I remember correctly it also had an addictive quality about it that gave Harry real anger management problems that he wasn't even aware of. Murphy did act the friend in that case and pointed out stuff he was doing that he wasn't even aware of.
That's a different tack entirely: The Fallen /did/ give Harry a Manual, just one with a very steep subscription cost. :P
Uriel's side cares about Faith and Free Will, but the other side only cares as much as they have to, the rest is all Temptation Flavored.
Harry used Soulfire the first time without even meaning to. He didn't know he even had it. That tells me that faith isn't a requirement. The fact that he used Soulfire without even meaning to tells me that Uriel gave him some sort of manual. He helped him use it.I can go with that, it certainly fits how Harry describes using Soulfire thereafter, something like a place in his mind he goes to when he needs to access it.
I can go with that, it certainly fits how Harry describes using Soulfire thereafter, something like a place in his mind he goes to when he needs to access it.
"Souls" I said. "I mean, you wonder if they are real. Even if you believe in them, you still have to wonder: Is my existence just this body? Is there really something more? Do I really have a soul?"
Uriel's smile blossomed again. "You've got it backward, Harry," he said. "You area soul. You havea body."
I blinked at that. It was something to think about.
So... could we say that Michael was a Saint in Skin Game, while he was walking around with Uriel's Grace?
Perhaps that's what a Saint is -- the risky (requiring mutual trust) move of temporarily handing an angel's grace to a free-willed mortal.
I think the thing we are forgetting here is that Saints are labeled Saint AFTER they have died.I dont think that has bearing anymore; we're agreed that in the they have to be Alive yes? Unless we're considering the definition of Saint to require the you "Die And Get Better" like Harry?
This feels like a logical loop. Your saying it would be a big deal because TWG "owns" the term Saint, but that assumed ownership would exist if you already Consider TWG to be a Big Deal. Historically/RL the term Saint is not at all restricted to Christianity; that's just the most common (and arguably most formal) use of the term that drove it's globalization.
but I still think that being part of the organization (the Church) that "owns" the copyright to the term Saint is a pretty big deal when you are trying to apply it to other people.
I think the thing we are forgetting here is that Saints are labeled Saint AFTER they have died.
Having the power to lead a mob against BCV Elders is an indication that someone could be a Saint, but I still think that being part of the organization (the Church) that "owns" the copyright to the term Saint is a pretty big deal when you are trying to apply it to other people.
By definition, only a follower of TWG or TWC can be a saint.
This doesn't mean that others cannot throw around saint-like powers.
I know I'm kind of wrapped around the axel with this definition, but I think it's important.
Going back to the old definition of saint, while a good starting point, does not appear reasonable to me as a final destination, if we are already throwing out one of the main requirements (being dead), what other requirements can we also throw out? Does it need to be a follower of TWG, or can there be saints from other religions? Is a pious life (however that is defined by each religion) necessary to be a Saint, or just calling upon a Higher Power in a time of need? Is Faith required? These are all interesting questions to ponder precisely because we know that the traditional definition of sainthood does not apply.And if we look at the history of actual saints, they may not fit any of the above but because of one act make the big leagues.
If Chauncy was telling the truth about the werewolf curse, I wonder why a Saint was cast it, and why TWG would allow it.
It must have been a gave offense indeed, if the sin of the father is extended to the innocent descendants of his family..That's assuming it was a punishment, and not a willing sacrifice or Long-term "good" or some such. Which so far TWG always seems to require, if not always full Informed Consent.
I dont think that has bearing anymore; we're agreed that in the they have to be Alive yes? Unless we're considering the definition of Saint to require the you "Die And Get Better" like Harry?
This feels like a logical loop. Your saying it would be a big deal because TWG "owns" the term Saint, but that assumed ownership would exist if you already Consider TWG to be a Big Deal. Historically/RL the term Saint is not at all restricted to Christianity; that's just the most common (and arguably most formal) use of the term that drove it's globalization.
That's assuming it was a punishment, and not a willing sacrifice or Long-term "good" or some such. Which so far TWG always seems to require, if not always full Informed Consent.
But if it was a willing sacrifice, then Finn would be a saint, wouldn't he? Or at least a martyr.. Also wouldn't he have considered it a blessing instead of a curse? Not sure what long time good could come from a Loop randomly killing innocents every full moon until the end of time. I may be wrong but I think cursing someone or putting a curse on someone is the same as damning them..
Looked at from TWG's perspective, those "innocents" are just being sent back home (to heaven).
I would hope that the Dresden file TWG were benevolent. if we look at real world, then well he is basically Cthulhu.LOL ... now THAT conversation could get to be a TT for sure.
/Ulfgeir
Not at all. That's why there are saints and Saints.As Ive said so many times in this thread, I will fight this proposed nomenclature to my dying breath. >:(
Per biblical source (Paul I believe, but haven't looked it up yet), all followers of TWC are saints. Be they alive or in their graves, they are saints. Saints are those who have passed away, but are recognized as having attained paradise.Sure, that is one of the many contradictory definition of Saint out there in the Real World. Which is why we are trying to keep this conversation restricted to the In-Setting examples and data we have.
The argument that it would require someone to be a saint to lead a mob against an elder of the Black Court Vamps is a fallacy as well.Um, what? We're talking about Saints. Sure there are other things out there with Power that might lead such a fight, the OWJ in question listed quite a few. But we're focusing on Saints, specifically the only Dresden Files example we have. You dont need to be a Saint to lead such as fight, but as far as we have any Data anyone who is a Saint should be able to lead such a fight.
And you have to realize that while they don't get the press, there were saints who led mobs against great evil (in the form of a BCV elder or some other thing) that weren't successful. That doesn't make them any less of a saint. It just means that they weren't as successful as other saints. And the others who were successful are the ones who got the better press and often were canonized and recognized as a Saint.
I mean look at all the martyrs who died unsuccessfully fighting against an evil, but are recognized as Saints.Per catholic use, originally there was no distinction between Saint and Martyr, the ONLY saints were those that were Martyred. Though yes this is certainly different than the usage in the New Testament. But since we know that DF Saints are living things, that cannot be a part of it in the story.
But if it was a willing sacrifice, then Finn would be a saint, wouldn't he? Or at least a martyr.. Also wouldn't he have considered it a blessing instead of a curse? Not sure what long time good could come from a Loop randomly killing innocents every full moon until the end of time. I may be wrong but I think cursing someone or putting a curse on someone is the same as damning them..Not Finn, though perhaps the originating Ancestor; descendants are Bound by their ancestor's Choices to some degree (you can sell a baby apparently, Firstborn, etc) but the later generatiosn dont seem to get any credit for the actions of their ancestors (they can inherit responsibility, but they dont get to just inherit Faith, I wouldnt think. Wouldnt surprise me if the originating Ancestor actually /was/ the Saint in question, truthfully.
Random Note: We do have WOJ confirmation that one of Vadderung's Mantles is Saint Nicholas.
Is it? Or is it Kris Kringle?Yup, it was pretty direct, and I asked the question specifically with this whole Saint question in mind. Should have followed up and asked for a specific definition. He listed several different Names/Mantles in comparison to his Santa and Vadderung Mantles.
Common Popular belief has them as both, but are they? And is that specific Mantle Saint Nicholas?
2015 AMA
Vadderung is Santa Claus, is he also St Nicholas?
And Father Christmas and Sinterklaas and a variety of others. But in our modern era, a lot of people wear multiple hats on the job.
someone who either in partiality through life or directly of life, sacrifices of themselves for the greater good. Susan probably got a nice sainthood package.
I agree, it is also possible that someone who wasn't a good person has a change of heart at the end and sacrifices for the greater good could be named a saint.Jonas approves this message.
I agree, it is also possible that someone who wasn't a good person has a change of heart at the end and sacrifices for the greater good could be named a saint.
Yup, it was pretty direct, and I asked the question specifically with this whole Saint question in mind. Should have followed up and asked for a specific definition. He listed several different Names/Mantles in comparison to his Santa and Vadderung Mantles.Quote2015 AMA
Vadderung is Santa Claus, is he also St Nicholas?
And Father Christmas and Sinterklaas and a variety of others. But in our modern era, a lot of people wear multiple hats on the job.
I'm pulling for Maggie Sr for this.
The way that quote is worded, each of those could have been separate people/Mantles.
Not how I read it. He was saying that Odin has all those Mantles, and then added that in these days people wear many hats. It's because in the past there were many people with Mantles, and over time those Mantles were consolidated into fewer people, but with more power.
The way that quote is worded, each of those could have been separate people/Mantles.
Not how I read it. He was saying that Odin has all those Mantles, and then added that in these days people wear many hats. It's because in the past there were many people with Mantles, and over time those Mantles were consolidated into fewer people, but with more power.
Oh, I agree that Odin has them all, but that suggests that they were separate at one time.EDIT: Ah, gotcha. I tend to think it's a case by case thing. Some of those I fully expect to have separate origins, the Saint one in particular being something Id expect to need it's own history. But others are, historically, amalgamations that grew out of other myths and/or Mantles. I mean: we have Kringle, Father Christmas, and Sinterklaas, all of which are historically believed to be malagamation myths that (usually) grew out of pre-existing Legends of Odin (usually as the Wanderer). Since Odin has historically had dozens of Names and is one step shy of a full Trickster God, I could easily imagine him spending enough time and/or doing enough Significant (capital S) things that one of his "fake" Names would gain Power all it's own.
Im not sure what difference you guys are getting at, unless its a question of whether the guy Harry has met is the Original of each/all of those, versus being originally only one (or none) of them and has collected all those the Mantles more recently?
I definitely thing he's saying that a single guy possesses all those Names/Mantles currently. I dont know whether he can combine them, or has to keep them separate as he clearly is doing with the Vadderung/Kringle mantles we've seen in action (ie. Fae one minute, working in a Steel Office the next).
EDIT: Ah, gotcha. I tend to think it's a case by case thing. Some of those I fully expect to have separate origins, the Saint one in particular being something Id expect to need it's own history. But others are, historically, amalgamations that grew out of other myths and/or Mantles. I mean: we have Kringle, Father Christmas, and Sinterklaas, all of which are historically believed to be malagamation myths that (usually) grew out of pre-existing Legends of Odin (usually as the Wanderer). Since Odin has historically had dozens of Names and is one step shy of a full Trickster God, I could easily imagine him spending enough time and/or doing enough Significant (capital S) things that one of his "fake" Names would gain Power all it's own.
This could give credence to the theory that BELIEF plays a part in the creation of a Mantle. Assuming Saint Nicholas was a Mantle.
That might be the distinctive quality there though. Are they effected more by Belief and worship or disbelief that they are simply fictional? I'd wager the former effects them much more than the later. As one has a greater amount of, well faith if nothing else, applied to it.I think both of those would play a role, though I dont know which carries more weight. But I'd argue that the the Worship and Belief of a vast swath of the Children on the planet (since far more children are raised believing in Santa than raised with a real belief in Christianity) would be at least as powerful, and would not be lessened by the fact that most of those Children will eventually be (incorrectly) told that Santa doesnt exists. Any individual believers Loss of Faith would not impact the Power as a whole, unless it became a full-on Trend that reduced the total.
Commercialized as santa is we turn around and tell our kids he's fake and nobody has any strong emotional ties to these new age Hades stories. He's not scary or awe inspiring or any other evocative emotion that might actually have some sort of magical juice tied to it. He's just a tropey bad guy who usually facilitates releasing real monsters. Bet the Kraken is getting bigger these days lol.
I think both of those would play a role, though I dont know which carries more weight. But I'd argue that the the Worship and Belief of a vast swath of the Children on the planet (since far more children are raised believing in Santa than raised with a real belief in Christianity) would be at least as powerful, and would not be lessened by the fact that most of those Children will eventually be (incorrectly) told that Santa doesnt exists. Any individual believers Loss of Faith would not impact the Power as a whole, unless it became a full-on Trend that reduced the total.That's very optimistic of you lol. I suppose I'm applying a polar express mentality to it. Belief fades, it gets tarnished, heck people go out of their way to destroy it betimes. Though wether or not that merely cuts off future intake or withers away what was added is a whole nother subject. It might be that santa is the most believed being on the planet, in short periods of time by a huge amount of the populace giving a gob of true belief as only children can.
That might be the distinctive quality there though. Are they effected more by Belief and worship or disbelief that they are simply fictional? I'd wager the former effects them much more than the later. As one has a greater amount of, well faith if nothing else, applied to it.
Commercialized as santa is we turn around and tell our kids he's fake and nobody has any strong emotional ties to these new age Hades stories. He's not scary or awe inspiring or any other evocative emotion that might actually have some sort of magical juice tied to it. He's just a tropey bad guy who usually facilitates releasing real monsters. Bet the Kraken is getting bigger these days lol.
Perhaps since Hades IS, Belief in the newer versions of him don't require a change in him. However something like Santa, since that is a mantle and not an actual being (any more), it's more subject to change based on belief?I like it, I really like it. It might actually work perfect and be applicable to other examples.
I like it, I really like it. It might actually work perfect and be applicable to other examples.I like it as well, but currently it would require us to make entirely uninformed guesses as to where the Line between Mantle and Original Host is, and which mantled characters we know are /not/ the actual originals. Vadderung is likely not the first Odin (Im starting to wonder if he wasnt the original Merlin before getting a promotion), but could easily be the first St Nic, and if he were a Changling originally could be the original Kringle as well. We dont actually know a thing about Hades or whether he's the original or not (a mantle-pass during the greco-roman evolution would makes sense, for example). The only ones that we know for certain arent their various Originals are all the Fae Queen Mantels except Mother Winter.
I like it as well, but currently it would require us to make entirely uninformed guesses as to where the Line between Mantle and Original Host is, and which mantled characters we know are /not/ the actual originals. Vadderung is likely not the first Odin (Im starting to wonder if he wasnt the original Merlin before getting a promotion), but could easily be the first St Nic, and if he were a Changling originally could be the original Kringle as well. We dont actually know a thing about Hades or whether he's the original or not (a mantle-pass during the greco-roman evolution would makes sense, for example). The only ones that we know for certain arent their various Originals are all the Fae Queen Mantels except Mother Winter.Uninformed isn't an optimal word here, even you used educated guesses just now ;)
Uninformed isn't an optimal word here, even you used educated guesses just now ;)"Educated" implies data, and we have none. :)
"Educated" implies data, and we have none. :)we have plenty, it's just not quantifiable by any current measurements. Like Einstein's relativity when it came out, we have to look for solid foundations to base greater applied logic from and continually compare our gathered Data vs our presumed theorums. Otherwise we have nothing but Lore. :)
Regarding Hades and his story about Persephone: dont forget that one of the main characters of that story is in fact 6 people at present, I wouldnt put too much literal weight on the Rockwellian tone of it.