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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: brentb on October 15, 2020, 12:56:03 AM
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Edited to remove spoiler from title.
- Griff
Absolutely gutted by Murphy's death-suppose it will make a good story line for future books but why???? and also hendricks
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Because the way she was physically was only going to slow Harry down, example is the shopping cart scene. It isn't in her nature to stand by and let Harry go it alone, as exampled by her not staying put at Mac's. She has only been out of one book the entire series. Jim needed a way to shelve her for awhile or permanently but also give her an out worthwhile of her character.
She is now getting the rest she has earned before being awakened to get ready for the end of days. A lot of us believe she will be back before the end of the trilogy.
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Hendricks didn't deserve to die... We need a hendricks microfiction! I wanna know what his thesis was!
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She has only been out of one book the entire series. Jim needed a way to shelve her for awhile or permanently but also give her an out worthwhile of her character.
While it's true that she left the city in the first chapter of Dead Beat, she's been shelved for most of the book several times.
Grave Peril: She's barely in the story because she's put to sleep.
Summer Knight: She gets injured after only showing up a couple of times.
Death Masks: She introduces Harry to Butters, goes on "vacation," and Harry talks to her on a cell phone once.
She's pretty involved in BR and from PG to SmF, then she has a medium sized roll in Turn Coat.
And in many of the books she's been highly involved in, her involvement in the action hasn't been the main thrust of her contributions.
My point is that Jim has repeatedly been able to keep her on the sidelines or out of the action in the past without killing her. He could have done it in future books. Especially if Harry is starting up a serious organization. Murphy could have been extremely useful for helping Harry administrator that. Especially since he has about zero experience running anything larger than a squad.
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Isn't there also something to the admiration that Harry expressed about Lara Raith repeatedly across a number of books? Especially the comments not related to her vampire powers. Seems like a little foreshadowing about a possible future relationship. Especially, with the comments others make about how she treats Harry differently than others - in a weird but positive way i guess
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So I'm wondering about Murphy's inheritance.. I know she had those diamonds, but she also owned her home and iirc made a deal with Marcone for land(in GS, or aftermath?) What happens to these assets? Are we going to see more of Murphy's clan come to town now?
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So I'm wondering about Murphy's inheritance.. I know she had those diamonds, but she also owned her home and iirc made a deal with Marcone for land(in GS, or aftermath?) What happens to these assets? Are we going to see more of Murphy's clan come to town now?
I do not know if that was official real estate or territory under “protection”
If there is no official deed the protection part can be taken over by Murphy’s successors but they have to enforce the claim. Harry will help if asked, just to irritate Marcone and for many other reasons.
For the diamonds it depends what Murphy did with them. If she just told nobody and hid them in the house some family member will have to make some decisions.
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While it's true that she left the city in the first chapter of Dead Beat, she's been shelved for most of the book several times.
Grave Peril: She's barely in the story because she's put to sleep.
Summer Knight: She gets injured after only showing up a couple of times.
Death Masks: She introduces Harry to Butters, goes on "vacation," and Harry talks to her on a cell phone once.
She's pretty involved in BR and from PG to SmF, then she has a medium sized roll in Turn Coat.
And in many of the books she's been highly involved in, her involvement in the action hasn't been the main thrust of her contributions.
My point is that Jim has repeatedly been able to keep her on the sidelines or out of the action in the past without killing her. He could have done it in future books. Especially if Harry is starting up a serious organization. Murphy could have been extremely useful for helping Harry administrator that. Especially since he has about zero experience running anything larger than a squad.
You miss understand what I'm saying. I'm saying she can't physically move the plot point along. Jim removed her from the CPD to be defender of Chicago in Harry's absence. Then Harry came back, but she got physically crippled. So she had lost both her intelligence gathering source and her physical contributions to the team.
So with that said, every book, with the exception of DB, up to this point, Murphy played a factor in it. Jim had evolved her character to the point that she wanted to be physically in the fight all the time, from before being crippled but especially after. So to keep her on the sidelines wouldn't be in character for her.
As for killing her later, he couldn't do it any other way. Just killing her would have pissed people off, believing that she should have gone out in a blaze of glory. The set up for this book was just right for her to go. She didn't feel pain because of Mab, she killed a giant, and because of that she was chosen by Odin for the end of days.
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Edited to remove spoiler from title.
- Griff
Absolutely gutted by Murphy's death-suppose it will make a good story line for future books but why???? and also hendricks
Maybe going forward his relationships are meant to be purely political. This would seem to fit with Lara. Did die alone really mean, die without love?
On the other hand Hendricks became redundant with the appearance of Thorned Namshiel.
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Maybe going forward his relationships are meant to be purely political. This would seem to fit with Lara. Did die alone really mean, die without love?
On the other hand Hendricks became redundant with the appearance of Thorned Namshiel.
It also isolates Marcone more. It makes it easier for Namshiel to influence him and corrupt him even further.
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On the other hand Hendricks became redundant with the appearance of Thorned Namshiel.
I totally disagree with that because Hendricks and Namshiel are so different. Hendricks was the loyal body guard, he had no agenda of his own other than the agenda that Marcone had. Namshiel is different, as we've seen with the other Fallen, his agenda is his own. He will go along with his new host and help as long as the goals remain the same, but pressure heavily when they don't. So I could have seen them together on the same page.
Murphy on the other hand, especially after she was injured, did become redundant to a degree to Michael, and even Butters as to who would hand out common sense and moral advice to Harry. One had to go, and Murphy happened to be that choice.
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Remember Butters and Harry's fake girlfriend?
Hendrix was not redundant for Marcone but he was a potential problem for Namshiel. The fallen like to isolate you from your real friends.
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You miss understand what I'm saying. I'm saying she can't physically move the plot point along. Jim removed her from the CPD to be defender of Chicago in Harry's absence. Then Harry came back, but she got physically crippled. So she had lost both her intelligence gathering source and her physical contributions to the team.
So with that said, every book, with the exception of DB, up to this point, Murphy played a factor in it. Jim had evolved her character to the point that she wanted to be physically in the fight all the time, from before being crippled but especially after. So to keep her on the sidelines wouldn't be in character for her.
As for killing her later, he couldn't do it any other way. Just killing her would have pissed people off, believing that she should have gone out in a blaze of glory. The set up for this book was just right for her to go. She didn't feel pain because of Mab, she killed a giant, and because of that she was chosen by Odin for the end of days.
I understand what you're saying. I just disagree. I think Jim's talented enough to have Murphy find a new purpose. It's not really that complicated. Especially after the events of BG (minus Murphy's death). It would easy to imagine Murphy being rehired as a captain in charge of a much larger S.I. once the Chicago government came to terms with the existence of the supernatural. Plenty of people on here theorized she'd get a job with the Librarians or the FBI.
All that said, my only problem with Murphy dying is if we have to deal Harry constantly moping about it. We've already read that book more than once with regards to Susan.
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All that said, my only problem with Murphy dying is if we have to deal Harry constantly moping about it. We've already read that book more than once with regards to Susan.
It was worse when she half turned and left Chicago. Harry went on a super guilt trip, even close to if not clinical depression over that. When she died, it was bad, mostly Harry not wanting to face his daughter, but though he felt guilty I also think that Harry knew there was no other way to save any of them. Yes, he is going to mourn Murphy for quite sometime, but it isn't just him anymore, he has a child to consider, that makes a heck of a lot of difference.
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He can not indulge too much because of the children and his other responsibilities.
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He can not indulge too much because of the children and his other responsibilities.
Exactly, now grief will have it's way from time to time, no matter what Harry does. However he cannot afford the luxury of indulging himself in it's depths, the world is moving on rapidly and he has to move with it.
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It was worse when she half turned and left Chicago. Harry went on a super guilt trip, even close to if not clinical depression over that. When she died, it was bad, mostly Harry not wanting to face his daughter, but though he felt guilty I also think that Harry knew there was no other way to save any of them. Yes, he is going to mourn Murphy for quite sometime, but it isn't just him anymore, he has a child to consider, that makes a heck of a lot of difference.
Murphy hurts worse then any loss so far. Murphy wasn't just the woman he loved. Murphy was his best friend. His confidant. His sounding board. The one he could always turn to. Moving it into the romance field was just one more aspect of their relationship. He loved Susan. But at the time she got half turned could you honestly say she had bigger hold on him then Murphy did toward the end, even before romance entered into it?
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I understand what you're saying. I just disagree. I think Jim's talented enough to have Murphy find a new purpose. It's not really that complicated. Especially after the events of BG (minus Murphy's death). It would easy to imagine Murphy being rehired as a captain in charge of a much larger S.I. once the Chicago government came to terms with the existence of the supernatural. Plenty of people on here theorized she'd get a job with the Librarians or the FBI.
All that said, my only problem with Murphy dying is if we have to deal Harry constantly moping about it. We've already read that book more than once with regards to Susan.
But Murphy would never be cleared for active duty. She is physically crippled. That's what I'm getting at. She wouldn't and couldn't sit by while others did the work for her. She has never done that in any book when she was able to. It's what lead to her being killed. It's her character to the core. So to return Murphy to the fight, he killed her to restore her body. To have Jim write her into being a desk jockey would be demeaning to the character that she is. To think that it would work is wishful thinking. Yes, Jim is a talented writer, but to pull off what you want, he would have had to change her character 5 books ago, not a complete character change in one. And he couldn't do that because he needed her to take over for Harry while he was dead.
As for the mourning over her, with Susan, it was by his hand. He cut her throat. Murphy is a different case. He got to mourn over her after she died. He is still mourning, but a)it wasn't by his hand, b) he knows Murphy wouldn't want him to go into the dive he did after Susan, and c) he was able to deal with it after her death instead of bottling it up like he did with Susan, he was able to cry for the loss of her.
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It was worse when she half turned and left Chicago. Harry went on a super guilt trip, even close to if not clinical depression over that. When she died, it was bad, mostly Harry not wanting to face his daughter, but though he felt guilty I also think that Harry knew there was no other way to save any of them. Yes, he is going to mourn Murphy for quite sometime, but it isn't just him anymore, he has a child to consider, that makes a heck of a lot of difference.
I agree. I don't mind Harry being sad or mourning. I'd imagine he's going to miss Murphy for the rest of his life. I just don't want the books to be overly focused on it.
Murphy hurts worse then any loss so far. Murphy wasn't just the woman he loved. Murphy was his best friend. His confidant. His sounding board. The one he could always turn to. Moving it into the romance field was just one more aspect of their relationship. He loved Susan. But at the time she got half turned could you honestly say she had bigger hold on him then Murphy did toward the end, even before romance entered into it?
I think you make an excellent point. Murphy's been Harry's best friend since Summer Knight.
She wouldn't and couldn't sit by while others did the work for her. She has never done that in any book when she was able to.
Emphasis added. She did in Death Masks. And she did several times when she wasn't able to.
To have Jim write her into being a desk jockey would be demeaning to the character that she is. To think that it would work is wishful thinking.
I disagree. I think you underestimate the importance of leadership and management. I think it's demeaning to her character to say she was only useful as gun slinger. She had a lot more going for her. I think it would be demeaning to her character if she couldn't cope with not being in the midst of the action and crumbled because of it.
Yes, Jim is a talented writer, but to pull off what you want, he would have had to change her character 5 books ago, not a complete character change in one.
I didn't say that's what I wanted. I said Jim could have done it if he wanted. It wasn't necessary for the story to kill Murphy. It was a choice Jim made. I'm fine with that choice for several reasons.
1. Killing main characters is one way to keep/amp up dramatic tension.
2. I don't dislike her, except in FM, but Murphy's never been one of my favorites. I probably would have been upset if Jim had killed Marcone, Bob, Toot, Sanya, Butters, or any number of other characters. I'm kinda upset that he killed Wild Bill. I wanted to spend more time with him.
3. Jim might not have wanted to go in a direction where Harry needs an administrator, or he might have someone else in mind for that role. (Just as long as it's not Harry because that is too much of a character shift).
It wouldn't be a complete character change. Murphy has always been a leader. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be difficult for her, but crippling injuries are difficult and people adjust to them. If that's how Jim wanted it, Murphy could have too.
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You do realize the five or so year older Murphy was, in facr, one of Harry's mentors?
It was time for a mentor to bite it.
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As for the mourning over her, with Susan, it was by his hand. He cut her throat. Murphy is a different case. He got to mourn over her after she died. He is still mourning, but a)it wasn't by his hand, b) he knows Murphy wouldn't want him to go into the dive he did after Susan, and c) he was able to deal with it after her death instead of bottling it up like he did with Susan, he was able to cry for the loss of her.
He was more messed up when Susan was half-turned and ran away than when he actually killed her.
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He was more messed up when Susan was half-turned and ran away than when he actually killed her.
Well, it was only like a day afterwards and he was shot and killed.
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He was more messed up when Susan was half-turned and ran away than when he actually killed her.
I agree, that is when he went into a full depression in the classic sense. When he killed her, she had fully turned, so not really Susan. Her last human words were for him to do it to save their daughter. He knows he really didn't have a choice in the matter, it was still bad for him.
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You do realize the five or so year older Murphy was, in facr, one of Harry's mentors?
It was time for a mentor to bite it.
Three years, according to the timeline. I'm not sure if you're joking or not about the mentor thing.
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Three years, according to the timeline. I'm not sure if you're joking or not about the mentor thing.
The time line may be off, or in the earlier short stories Harry is wrong, because I was rereading some of the short stories while waiting for Battle Ground to come out and in one of them Harry describes Murphy and says she is about five years older than himself.
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The time line may be off, or in the earlier short stories Harry is wrong, because I was rereading some of the short stories while waiting for Battle Ground to come out and in one of them Harry describes Murphy and says she is about five years older than himself.
Correct. And Murphy was a mentor to him in terms of sparring, survival, and as an investigator.
Structurally, death of a mentor is due. Michael, another mentor figure, was injured but not eliminated in a prior book.
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Correct. And Murphy was a mentor to him in terms of sparring, survival, and as an investigator.
Structurally, death of a mentor is due. Michael, another mentor figure, was injured but not eliminated in a prior book.
I made a similar point in the thread who's going to die in BG. It's not just a mentor thing. Jim has been dismantling Harry's team and life since I believe I said SmF. Go back and take a look at the thread. Maybe now though he is going to start getting his life back together now that he has his home back and upgraded. And possibly Bob. We will just have to wait and see.
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I made a similar point in the thread who's going to die in BG. It's not just a mentor thing. Jim has been dismantling Harry's team and life since I believe I said SmF. Go back and take a look at the thread. Maybe now though he is going to start getting his life back together now that he has his home back and upgraded. And possibly Bob. We will just have to wait and see.
I think it is more of a reshuffling of the deck chairs of his life. Harry, in the first half of the series was more or less a detective wizard. With Changes that began to radically change, it has to because the set up for the BAT needs a different set of supporters and enemies than he had in the first half of the series.
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Structurally, death of a mentor is due.
Structurally, the death of the mentor isn't part of the Hero's Journey. Also, basically everything could be a mentor. In my opinion, the Hero's Journey is so vague as to be useless as any sort of analytical framework.
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Structurally, the death of the mentor isn't part of the Hero's Journey. Also, basically everything could be a mentor. In my opinion, the Hero's Journey is so vague as to be useless as any sort of analytical framework.
Which is irrelevant to what I said. Harry needs to stand on his own merits without needing mentors.
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Which is irrelevant to what I said.
How is it irrelevant?
You said that death of the mentor was due because of structure. Commenting on the fact that death of the mentor isn't part of the structure of the Hero's Journey, which is what people are usually referencing when they discuss the death of the mentor, is relevant.
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How is it irrelevant?
You said that death of the mentor was due because of structure. Commenting on the fact that death of the mentor isn't part of the structure of the Hero's Journey, which is what people are usually referencing when they discuss the death of the mentor, is relevant.
Usually is the relevancy. It's time for Harry to fly on his own. He's alienating Ebenezer, Murphy died, etc.
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Usually is the relevancy. It's time for Harry to fly on his own. He's alienating Ebenezer, Murphy died, etc.
Not totally on his own, just entering a new phase. In the new phase it looks like the Holy Knights and fatherhood are going to play a huge role.. So out Murphy, in Michael. The Winter Court is becoming more important, so out White Council in Mab.. White Court seemingly more important, so out Thomas, in Lara..
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Not totally on his own, just entering a new phase. In the new phase it looks like the Holy Knights and fatherhood are going to play a huge role.. So out Murphy, in Michael. The Winter Court is becoming more important, so out White Council in Mab.. White Court seemingly more important, so out Thomas, in Lara..
Also a phrasing that works.
He's de facto challenging Marcone for Lord of Chicago, not Knight-Errant Champion of Chicago. Murphy was part of the story past. Harry is moving to a scale where preserving every Chicagoan- Murphy's scale- is out, and leading them into battle- where some will die- is in. Part of his "mini-Mab" arc.
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Usually is the relevancy.
If you're going to use a phrase in an unconventional way without doing anything to disambiguate it from that conventional meaning and in fact using language that reinforces the conventional interpretation of the phrase, don't be surprised when someone responds to the conventional meaning.
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Structurally, the death of the mentor isn't part of the Hero's Journey. Also, basically everything could be a mentor. In my opinion, the Hero's Journey is so vague as to be useless as any sort of analytical framework.
I thought death of the parental figures WAS part of it? That's why so many superheroes have dead parents and all that.
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If you're going to use a phrase in an unconventional way without doing anything to disambiguate it from that conventional meaning and in fact using language that reinforces the conventional interpretation of the phrase, don't be surprised when someone responds to the conventional meaning.
The essential point of the post was that we were due for death of a mentor figure. Yes, that's normally the Hero's Journey archetype, but not necessarily. Focusing on the conventional interpretation to dismiss, instead of addressing the point, is the fallacy known as "logic chopping."
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The essential point of the post was that we were due for death of a mentor figure. Yes, that's normally the Hero's Journey archetype, but not necessarily. Focusing on the conventional interpretation to dismiss, instead of addressing the point, is the fallacy known as "logic chopping."
Your point read to me as "the Hero's Journey calls for the death of the mentor, and Murphy is the Mentor, so Murphy was due to die." I'm fine saying that's a misreading of your argument. So my response wasn't irrelevant to what it appeared you were saying.
You hid a lot of your point in the word "structure" and relied on Murphy being a mentor. I'm not sure what you mean by structure. Murphy is a mentor under the Hero's Journey, but so is Harry's ruby with knowledge of the ways. I don't think Murphy is Harry's mentor outside the context of the Hero's Journey. That's a stretch of the plain meaning of the word. Confidant, advisor, and critic are all better descriptions of Murphy's relationship to Harry. Sure, she has more investigative and martial arts experience than Harry, but teaching those things to Harry has never been the core of their relationship or the purpose of her character.
If your point is that it's time for Harry to stand on his own, I'm not so sure he's ever going to do that. He might be more isolated in his personal life having lost his best friend, but I don't think he's going to be much more isolated when he's in the field doing things. Currently he's always going around with the Alphas. I think it's likely that he's going to have a sidekick or crew in every book. Harry hasn't been on his own since Storm Front.
If we're due for the death of a mentor, i.e., someone the apprentice relies on for their experience, expertise, and help in a certain field that the apprentice is also engaged in, Murphy doesn't fit the bill. Ebeenezer, Rashid, Mab, and Bob fit that description much better. One reason that authors kill off mentor figures so often is that the mentor should be able to deal with whatever challenge the main character has to face with ease. That's never really been the case for Harry. He's never been able to call someone up and ask them to solve his problems for him. No one has held his hand and walked him through his adventure. He may have been able to ask Eb, but he's never done it. He's asked him for help a time or two, and Eb has volunteered his help a time or two. In the death of the mentor trope (which has little to do with structure), Eb is the mentor, not Murphy.
Now, it might be time, structurally, for the stakes to be raised so we don't feel any character (other than Harry) is safe. But that's completely different than "death of the mentor."
If it is time for the Hero to leave behind the Mentor, Harry being kicked out of the White Council and Butters having Bob could accomplish that. Except for the part where Harry just borrows Bob whenever he needs to figure something out.
And no, Death of the Mentor, isn't part of the Hero's Journey. The mentor is just someone or thing that helps the hero accept the call to adventure. The call to adventure has Harry on speed dial and he always answers on the first ring. Also, Campbell described this as "supernatural aid" and the closest by the book example from the Dresden Files is when Rashid gives Harry the anti-faye glamour ointment and piece of the stone table in SK. Death of the Mentor comes in when you have a figure like Gandalf or Obi-won who is just leagues ahead of everyone, so the hero is just going to defer to him and/or rely on him. A good example of that from the DF would be when Harry died if we were following Butters or Murphy instead of Harry.
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I agree, Murphy is not a mentor, she is a friend, foil, partner, and at last lover, but not a mentor.
I am not even sure if Michael fits that bill, though he may now on the subject of how to be a father.
Harry's mentors for good or ill as I see them;
1] Justin
2] Eb
3] Rashid
4] Listen's to Wind [ that is a bit boarder line but Harry has learned from him]
5] Bob
6] Lea
7] Mab
8] Uriel
9] The Mothers
10] Nick of Ragged Angel Detective Agency
There may be more but those are the ones that come to mind.
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I agree, Murphy is not a mentor, she is a friend, foil, partner, and at last lover, but not a mentor.
I am not even sure if Michael fits that bill, though he may now on the subject of how to be a father.
Harry's mentors for good or ill as I see them;
1] Justin
2] Eb
3] Rashid
4] Listen's to Wind [ that is a bit boarder line but Harry has learned from him]
5] Bob
6] Lea
7] Mab
8] Uriel
9] The Mothers
10] Nick of Ragged Angel Detective Agency
There may be more but those are the ones that come to mind.
Damn. So many mentors, and yet Harry never seems to learn his lessons.
Although some of these don't really fit. Like, yes the mothers have told him a couple things, but I wouldn't consider them mentors.
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Damn. So many mentors, and yet Harry never seems to learn his lessons.
Although some of these don't really fit. Like, yes the mothers have told him a couple things, but I wouldn't consider them mentors.
Yeah, I know, I debated whether or not to include them. If Harry had only visited them once, as he did in Summer Knight I wouldn't have included them. However in Cold Days, Mother Winter tests him when she pins him down and threatens to chop him up for dinner. Harry learns a valuable lesson about himself, his will, and what soul fire is, he also learned a bit about the purpose of the Courts from Mother Summer. In my opinion that second visit will turn outn to be significant in Harry's development as a star child in the BAT, so I added them to the list of his mentors.
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I don't think I'd include the Mothers or LtW as mentors in the plain English sense. LtW is a potential mentor like River Shoulders.
There's also Odin/Vadderung/Kringle. Harry's called on him and/or he's bailed Harry out almost as much as Eb.
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There's also Odin/Vadderung/Kringle. Harry's called on him and/or he's bailed Harry out almost as much as Eb.
Yeah, but with the exception of at the end of Cold Days, when he spoke about Mab, and her nature, I wouldn't call him a mentor at all.
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Yeah, but with the exception of at the end of Cold Days, when he spoke about Mab, and her nature, I wouldn't call him a mentor at all.
he also offered him free advice basically in Changes, it's been light true. Seems like he was more interested in Marcone in a lot of ways. The conversation in CD only costing a dollar was something too.. and he recommended grey,
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he also offered him free advice basically in Changes, it's been light true. Seems like he was more interested in Marcone in a lot of ways. The conversation in CD only costing a dollar was something too.. and he recommended grey,
Yeah, but I am not sure if that would count as mentoring. However his advice about how to deal with the Queens of the Courts, can be considered I think, because it did give Harry guidance on how to deal with Mab in the future. Guidance, Harry really does need if he is to survive as Knight.
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We have him in Changes, Cold Days (at least twice), Skin Game, and Christmas Eve. Each time he's acting in a teaching role. He seldom just gives Harry an answer. He usually leads him to the conclusion.
If you really want to stretch it, we could make an argument for the Erlking.
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First off I'll say I need help with the Norse stuff (I'm in nursing school and have absolutely no business reading a book for pleasure, or being on this forum, but I don't have time to do the research myself).
Why did Murphy and Hendricks go to Valhalla? I'm a little disappointed she doesn't go to Heaven? She's appeared in Harry's sight as an angel, I figured she'd be going straight up.
Is Valhalla heaving for Vikings? Will she be able to come back and fight as an undead soldier? Does that mean her soul can't be at rest? At least she didn't end up with her dad in Chicago other...
Thanks for the help if someone can tell me if she's in a better place or not?
Megan
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I'm really late to this conversation. I never saw Murphy as Harry's mentor. In the last few books she was (mostly) Harry's friend and moral compass. I'm not saying I liked the way Jim wrote her in the last three or four books, that's just my general impression of what her character's role was.
My feeling is that several years ago; maybe as far back as Changes, Jim decided that Murphy had to go, and I'll get into why later. (Not that I really know why, so I'm going to be really vague about that.) So, it's not that Murphy could no longer keep up with Harry and that made her character superfluous to the story. It's that Jim wanted Harry to go in a new direction; one that doesn't involve finding his soulmate, at least not at the present time within the overall story. Of course, with that whole "die alone" motif being repeated, you have to wonder if Harry will ever find a permanent romantic partner.
To get back on point, Jim wanted Harry to become permanently removed from his best friend, the women he loved and his (sometimes) moral compass so his new course will be more of a high wire act than it already was. I think Jim crippled Murphy as a way for Harry to see her as someone who could no longer remain in the larger game he was playing and as a way to make her death more poignant. Murphy taking out the Jotun when she really shouldn't have been on the battlefield makes it a better death; sort of, except for Rudolph.
I'm not saying it was a good decision for Jim to make. Only time will tell us one way or the other. Even with what I see as the character's flaws since Changes, Karrin Murphy was the every person or mortal point of view and I think there is some risk in Jim removing her. Michael Carpenter is in no way a substitute for Murphy's point of view because he knows the supernatural world and many of the major players, and even some of the minor players within it.
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Why did Murphy and Hendricks go to Valhalla? I'm a little disappointed she doesn't go to Heaven? She's appeared in Harry's sight as an angel, I figured she'd be going straight up.
Essentially she was claimed by Odin because she fought and killed his people's personal enemies. The thing about Harry's image of Murphy as an angle is that was just his somewhat romantic way of interpreting what her soul looked like.
Is Valhalla heaving for Vikings? Will she be able to come back and fight as an undead soldier? Does that mean her soul can't be at rest? At least she didn't end up with her dad in Chicago other...
Yes and no. It's more like where exceptional Viking warriors go to party after their first death. They don't get to comeback to earth as Einherjar soldiers until their memory is lost to everyone who knew them. So if Harry lived another 400 years and out lived every other mortal in the story who knew Murphy, not until at least 400 years and a day have passed. All of the Einherjar will eventually die permanently at Ragnorak with Odin and unless Jim has that happen in the BAT, maybe not for thousands of years. So, Murphy's soul will eventually get to where it should go.
I wonder if we will meet the Valkyrie; the Chooser of the Slain, who chose Murphy. It couldn't have been Sigrun and her sister would have been with Lara. Well, there has to be more than just two of them.
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My feeling is that several years ago; maybe as far back as Changes, Jim decided that Murphy had to go, and I'll get into why later. (Not that I really know why, so I'm going to be really vague about that.) So, it's not that Murphy could no longer keep up with Harry and that made her character superfluous to the story. It's that Jim wanted Harry to go in a new direction; one that doesn't involve finding his soulmate, at least not at the present time within the overall story. Of course, with that whole "die alone" motif being repeated, you have to wonder if Harry will ever find a permanent romantic partner.
I agree with this, Murphy was a cop's cop in the early books, it fit her character well and it was a good foil for Harry the wizard detective. Once she left the police force however to my mind Jim struggled with the character. He did take her to her logical conclusion, lover of Harry and found a contrived way for her die after an heroic deed, though her actual death was a stupid accident. I don't think Harry will ever find the perfect romantic partner, but I also don't think he will die alone, he will be surrounded by family.. But honestly that was a lame death curse on the part of Cassius, as Malcolm told Harry, everyone dies alone.
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Essentially she was claimed by Odin because she fought and killed his people's personal enemies. The thing about Harry's image of Murphy as an angle is that was just his somewhat romantic way of interpreting what her soul looked like.
Yes and no. It's more like where exceptional Viking warriors go to party after their first death. They don't get to comeback to earth as Einherjar soldiers until their memory is lost to everyone who knew them. So if Harry lived another 400 years and out lived every other mortal in the story who knew Murphy, not until at least 400 years and a day have passed. All of the Einherjar will eventually die permanently at Ragnorak with Odin and unless Jim has that happen in the BAT, maybe not for thousands of years. So, Murphy's soul will eventually get to where it should go.
That is one interpretation. The other is that Murphy’s soul is exactly were it should be and this is what’s next for her. She will be raised again every time she dies and feast again. She chose for that when she decided to fight and die as a Viking warrior and maybe Vadderung had negotiated with Uriel about her.
Just like other souls end up in Hades. Not that many anymore but they do. I do not get the impression that hades is a limited stay so why would walhalla be one? Is this Christian exceptionalism?
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Just like other souls end up in Hades. Not that many anymore but they do. I do not get the impression that hades is a limited stay so why would walhalla be one? Is this Christian exceptionalism?
When you say Hades it gets a little complicated, because in classic mythology, all dead go to Hades, it is the realm of the dead, there are areas like heaven for the good souls and areas like hell for the not so good souls.
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You totally made me feel better!! Thanks! And thanks for the extra about them not being able to come back to fight until all the living memory is passed. Answered what would have been my next question!
I'm really late to this conversation. I never saw Murphy as Harry's mentor. In the last few books she was (mostly) Harry's friend and moral compass. I'm not saying I liked the way Jim wrote her in the last three or four books, that's just my general impression of what her character's role was.
My feeling is that several years ago; maybe as far back as Changes, Jim decided that Murphy had to go, and I'll get into why later. (Not that I really know why, so I'm going to be really vague about that.) So, it's not that Murphy could no longer keep up with Harry and that made her character superfluous to the story. It's that Jim wanted Harry to go in a new direction; one that doesn't involve finding his soulmate, at least not at the present time within the overall story. Of course, with that whole "die alone" motif being repeated, you have to wonder if Harry will ever find a permanent romantic partner.
To get back on point, Jim wanted Harry to become permanently removed from his best friend, the women he loved and his (sometimes) moral compass so his new course will be more of a high wire act than it already was. I think Jim crippled Murphy as a way for Harry to see her as someone who could no longer remain in the larger game he was playing and as a way to make her death more poignant. Murphy taking out the Jotun when she really shouldn't have been on the battlefield makes it a better death; sort of, except for Rudolph.
I'm not saying it was a good decision for Jim to make. Only time will tell us one way or the other. Even with what I see as the character's flaws since Changes, Karrin Murphy was the every person or mortal point of view and I think there is some risk in Jim removing her. Michael Carpenter is in no way a substitute for Murphy's point of view because he knows the supernatural world and many of the major players, and even some of the minor players within it.
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When you say Hades it gets a little complicated, because in classic mythology, all dead go to Hades, it is the realm of the dead, there are areas like heaven for the good souls and areas like hell for the not so good souls.
But that is not what the god Hades tells Harry in Skin Game. He used to get more souls but now he only get specific ones. Just like Vadderung.
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I think the thing that saddened me the most after her death, of course, was that in my mind she was always meant to take up Amoracchius, the sword of love. I mean, she was Dresden's love, she was a martial artist trained in swords, and she was a Catholic. The only reason she didn't was because she was a Chicago police Lieutenant, but once she lost that job there was nothing in her way.
She would have made a great Knight of the Cross.
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But that is not what the god Hades tells Harry in Skin Game. He used to get more souls but now he only get specific ones. Just like Vadderung.
Yeah, well, I am just going by classic Greek and Roman Mythology. But it still tracks with what Hades said, even if he doesn't get as many souls as he used to, he still judges them and I imagine they get what they deserve whether they go to the place where he rewards them or to the place where they are punished.
I think the thing that saddened me the most after her death, of course, was that in my mind she was always meant to take up Amoracchius, the sword of love. I mean, she was Dresden's love, she was a martial artist trained in swords, and she was a Catholic. The only reason she didn't was because she was a Chicago police Lieutenant, but once she lost that job there was nothing in her way.
She would have made a great Knight of the Cross.
No, she had that choice, to be a Holy Knight and she refused it. For a couple of reasons, first one being she didn't like being a sock puppet for an angel. That happened at C.I. when she wielded the Sword of Faith, and if you remember Butters was more or less taken over by an angel a lot of the time during Battle Ground. She was a short term Holy Knight. She also had her own ideas of what justice is and what should happen to Denarians, which runs totally contrary to the rules governing the Swords. That is how she broke the Sword of Faith.
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Yeah, well, I am just going by classic Greek and Roman Mythology. But it still tracks with what Hades said, even if he doesn't get as many souls as he used to, he still judges them and I imagine they get what they deserve whether they go to the place where he rewards them or to the place where they are punished.
That is fine but the old stories are not completely reliable in the dresdenverse as is stated more than once. If directly contradicted by a reliable source I take that as more important.
So vakyries are not virgins and there are more than one realms of the dead governed by different gods .
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That is fine but the old stories are not completely reliable in the dresdenverse as is stated more than once. If directly contradicted by a reliable source I take that as more important.
So vakyries are not virgins and there are more than one realms of the dead governed by different gods .
But the point is, Hades isn't just about punishment, it can be about reward as well. Hades said nothing to contradict that, he only said they get fewer souls than they used to get. He also added if Nic thought there would be less punishment in his realm for his daughter, he was very mistaken.
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No, she had that choice, to be a Holy Knight and she refused it. For a couple of reasons, first one being she didn't like being a sock puppet for an angel. That happened at C.I. when she wielded the Sword of Faith, and if you remember Butters was more or less taken over by an angel a lot of the time during Battle Ground. She was a short term Holy Knight. She also had her own ideas of what justice is and what should happen to Denarians, which runs totally contrary to the rules governing the Swords. That is how she broke the Sword of Faith.
It was a story choice. If Murphy didn't get anything it was because Jim didn't want her to as a character. And this is true for every female character in the story. It's a shame really. You knew at the outset when they had sex that she was doomed. I would guess Mab is as well.
It could have well been written another way. She could have went to heaven. Which given her Catholicism would seemed to have been a better choice. Or she could have joined the Librarians in DC. He wanted her dead and out of the way for this arc with Lara.
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But the point is, Hades isn't just about punishment, it can be about reward as well. Hades said nothing to contradict that, he only said they get fewer souls than they used to get. He also added if Nic thought there would be less punishment in his realm for his daughter, he was very mistaken.
Not my point. My point was about Murphy staying with Vadderung for eternity. :)
Nicodemus was not mistaken, he lied.
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Not my point. My point was about Murphy staying with Vadderung for eternity. :)
Nicodemus was not mistaken, he lied.
Perhaps. I am not sure that that is such a good ending for her though, unless in the BAT Harry is killed in battle and goes off to exist with her happily ever after for all eternity, well, almost, in Valhalla.
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Perhaps. I am not sure that that is such a good ending for her though, unless in the BAT Harry is killed in battle and goes off to exist with her happily ever after for all eternity, well, almost, in Valhalla.
She wanted to be involved. She wanted to be there were it is happening. Now she will.
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But honestly that was a lame death curse on the part of Cassius, as Malcolm told Harry, everyone dies alone.
I've always taken it as a curse about Harry losing his Denarius. If I'm right, Cassius helped save Harry's soul.
Is this Christian exceptionalism?
I think it's more that Norse mythology says that they all die at Ragnarok.
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I've always taken it as a curse about Harry losing his Denarius. If I'm right, Cassius helped save Harry's soul.
I think it's more that Norse mythology says that they all die at Ragnarok.
But the surviving gods and men will repopulate a beautiful new world. It is not just about destruction, it is also about rebirth.
But I do not think the apocalypse or ragnarok are inevitable things in the dresdenverse. Everyone is very much working against it and for Nicodemus it is more a state of mind than an actual event.
The real apocalypse was something people were looking forward to. It says something about how happy they were.
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But the surviving gods and men will repopulate a beautiful new world. It is not just about destruction, it is also about rebirth.
But I do not think the apocalypse or ragnarok are inevitable things in the dresdenverse. Everyone is very much working against it and for Nicodemus it is more a state of mind than an actual event.
The real apocalypse was something people were looking forward to. It says something about how happy they were.
The BAT could be Ragnarok, Murphy would return then and her and Harry could happily kick ass together..
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But the surviving gods and men will repopulate a beautiful new world.
My understanding has always been that the Einherjaren would all die during Ragnarok. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.
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My understanding has always been that the Einherjaren would all die during Ragnarok. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.
Well then, they can die a second time and ascend together up to Heaven on the back of Mouse...
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They don't get to comeback to earth as Einherjar soldiers until their memory is lost to everyone who knew them. So if Harry lived another 400 years and out lived every other mortal in the story who knew Murphy, not until at least 400 years and a day have passed.
Now that's of course if Harry will remain mortal - I think immortals memories doesn't count in this regard, otherwise damn Murphy is more screwed than any Einherjar soldier ever ;)
That is one interpretation. The other is that Murphy’s soul is exactly were it should be and this is what’s next for her. She will be raised again every time she dies and feast again. She chose for that when she decided to fight and die as a Viking warrior and maybe Vadderung had negotiated with Uriel about her.
That seems hardly a matter. I mean Einhernjar soldiers and Odin are doomed. Ragnarok coming always in their perspective.
Immortal does not mean eternal.
Not to mention - Valhalla and Odin, are not really this kind of warrior attitude Murphy showed in live. She was stubborn protector, a cop, a guardian. They are berserkers loving war for war itself, chosen for no other moral virtue but combat valor - so I mean there are really really shitty guys in Valhalla - and they live again (remember they are called mortal warriors - even if they are ressurected they are still well humans fundamentally) to train for oncoming Ragnarok. Like Odin sell their services to Marcone. How well do you think Murphy would react to be sold to some cyberpunk fae Marcone in 2277, huh?
Just like other souls end up in Hades. Not that many anymore but they do. I do not get the impression that hades is a limited stay so why would walhalla be one? Is this Christian exceptionalism?
It sort of is. Pagan gods are beings of multiple level of magnitude beneath Uriel and his brothers.
Most of them were sacked by Creator according to WOJ and forbidden to interfere with both mortal and Nevernever affairs. More are rambling around as immortal rock-stars and wrestlers, Odin choose mortality so he can keep being involved and then he gain it again, because well he was powerful wizard with God's knowledge so he knew well how to do it again, and took a risk, Hades is basically locked in his Underworld and unable to do much.
Another thing is - whether spirits coming to Hades were even real souls or more like spirits.
Those we met in Underworld were more like shades, than whatever Dresden was as a walking soul.
She would have made a great Knight of the Cross.
Murphy proved very well - she would be shitty Knight of the Cross.
Her INDEPENDENCE SYNDROM stopped her from being effective tool of Divine Providence (at least effective willing tool - as her failures were still used in a way to make Sword of Faith stronger) - and that's what knight is. Maybe not a saint, maybe not a believer, but he puts his fate in hands of providence to be guided, where he's needed. And Murphy rejected that. She rejected playing by God's rules.
Ironically she ended up - probably against her will - as Odin's soldier to be rented to some Marcone 2.0. (or maybe even Marcone 1.0 as he may not count as mortal anymore) in far future :P
It was a story choice. If Murphy didn't get anything it was because Jim didn't want her to as a character. And this is true for every female character in the story. It's a shame really.
Well yes, but also her stance about Swords is absolutely consistent with her character as shown by multiple books.
Otherwise those books can be just whatever bonanza with zero consistence.
You knew at the outset when they had sex that she was doomed. I would guess Mab is as well.
TBH I get more "she's going to do vibe" - when Dresden get too moral to seal the deal before. XD
It could have well been written another way. She could have went to heaven. Which given her Catholicism would seemed to have been a better choice. Or she could have joined the Librarians in DC. He wanted her dead and out of the way for this arc with Lara.
Considering all her live and especially stance for swords, her Catholicism seems to me as lil more than Irish cultural thing and convinient excuse to avoid unwanted valkyrie's sexual advances.
Also consider this - heaven is permanent. You never come back.
It's afterlife by capital A. and capital FTERLIFE.
But pagan gods and their domains are not eternal in this world - and Valhalla is especially like holding a big green neon sign saying NOT PERMANENT. It's doomed. Odin is doomed. Einhernjaren is doomed.
I mean let's say - what are the chances Big Apocalyptic Triology shall not include Ragnarok. I count them about 0,66%.
Which also means Murphy is in quite good place to fight in BAT as revenant supersoldier.
But the surviving gods and men will repopulate a beautiful new world. It is not just about destruction, it is also about rebirth.
Well but that does not counts Odin or Einhenjaren - those are goners.
And considering all other Nordic Gods were sacked from their jobs by THE CREATOR according to WOJ, I think well they can help repopulate by breedings scions on Earth, because that's about as far as they can go I guess XD
The real apocalypse was something people were looking forward to. It says something about how happy they were.
The Christian Apocalypse - yes, but it's term used rather more popculturally in Dresden Files - neither of apocalyptic scenarios here is like Second Coming - more like Outsiders Invasion of reality.
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Now that's of course if Harry will remain mortal - I think immortals memories doesn't count in this regard, otherwise damn Murphy is more screwed than any Einherjar soldier ever ;)
That seems hardly a matter. I mean Einhernjar soldiers and Odin are doomed. Ragnarok coming always in their perspective.
Immortal does not mean eternal.
Not to mention - Valhalla and Odin, are not really this kind of warrior attitude Murphy showed in live. She was stubborn protector, a cop, a guardian. They are berserkers loving war for war itself, chosen for no other moral virtue but combat valor - so I mean there are really really shitty guys in Valhalla - and they live again (remember they are called mortal warriors - even if they are ressurected they are still well humans fundamentally) to train for oncoming Ragnarok. Like Odin sell their services to Marcone. How well do you think Murphy would react to be sold to some cyberpunk fae Marcone in 2277, huh?
It sort of is. Pagan gods are beings of multiple level of magnitude beneath Uriel and his brothers.
Most of them were sacked by Creator according to WOJ and forbidden to interfere with both mortal and Nevernever affairs. More are rambling around as immortal rock-stars and wrestlers, Odin choose mortality so he can keep being involved and then he gain it again, because well he was powerful wizard with God's knowledge so he knew well how to do it again, and took a risk, Hades is basically locked in his Underworld and unable to do much.
Another thing is - whether spirits coming to Hades were even real souls or more like spirits.
Those we met in Underworld were more like shades, than whatever Dresden was as a walking soul.
Murphy proved very well - she would be shitty Knight of the Cross.
Her INDEPENDENCE SYNDROM stopped her from being effective tool of Divine Providence (at least effective willing tool - as her failures were still used in a way to make Sword of Faith stronger) - and that's what knight is. Maybe not a saint, maybe not a believer, but he puts his fate in hands of providence to be guided, where he's needed. And Murphy rejected that. She rejected playing by God's rules.
Ironically she ended up - probably against her will - as Odin's soldier to be rented to some Marcone 2.0. (or maybe even Marcone 1.0 as he may not count as mortal anymore) in far future :P
Well yes, but also her stance about Swords is absolutely consistent with her character as shown by multiple books.
Otherwise those books can be just whatever bonanza with zero consistence.
TBH I get more "she's going to do vibe" - when Dresden get too moral to seal the deal before. XD
Considering all her live and especially stance for swords, her Catholicism seems to me as lil more than Irish cultural thing and convinient excuse to avoid unwanted valkyrie's sexual advances.
Also consider this - heaven is permanent. You never come back.
It's afterlife by capital A. and capital FTERLIFE.
But pagan gods and their domains are not eternal in this world - and Valhalla is especially like holding a big green neon sign saying NOT PERMANENT. It's doomed. Odin is doomed. Einhernjaren is doomed.
I mean let's say - what are the chances Big Apocalyptic Triology shall not include Ragnarok. I count them about 0,66%.
Which also means Murphy is in quite good place to fight in BAT as revenant supersoldier.
Well but that does not counts Odin or Einhenjaren - those are goners.
And considering all other Nordic Gods were sacked from their jobs by THE CREATOR according to WOJ, I think well they can help repopulate by breedings scions on Earth, because that's about as far as they can go I guess XD
The Christian Apocalypse - yes, but it's term used rather more popculturally in Dresden Files - neither of apocalyptic scenarios here is like Second Coming - more like Outsiders Invasion of reality.
That is actually a point. The apocalypse in the dresdenverse is the outsider apocalypse and if that one succeeds it is the end of this reality. So it won’t happen because our hero will make sure it does not happen this time.
This reality is meantime continue.
And Murphy will play her part in this as well. She wanted to be involved, now she is. Nobody will take that away from her. I think she will be quite happy with her afterlife. She is not the playing harp on a cloud type.
So no last judgement in the dresdenverse. Murphy will battle and party forever.
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So no last judgement in the dresdenverse. Murphy will battle and party forever.
I think she still could be nailed in the end... However while she might like the fighting, I don't remember her as much of a party girl.
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That is actually a point. The apocalypse in the dresdenverse is the outsider apocalypse and if that one succeeds it is the end of this reality. So it won’t happen because our hero will make sure it does not happen this time.
I mean - why not both?
Apocalypse is random word now for great catastrophe. Apocalypse in Biblical Sense is Revelation - to Saint John of End Days.
But of course Empty Night is not End Days. End Days are Creator judging his creation finally and giving it final fixed shape.
Empty Night is Creator school friends destroying his Creation because creating worlds is lame and nerdy.
Those are two different things.
This reality is meantime continue.
And Murphy will play her part in this as well. She wanted to be involved, now she is. Nobody will take that away from her. I think she will be quite happy with her afterlife. She is not the playing harp on a cloud type.
So no last judgement in the dresdenverse. Murphy will battle and party forever.
I mean yes and no.
Uriel clearly points out - that beyond Murphy's dad station is something very much FINAL.
"“When you say what comes next, what do you mean, exactly?”
“The part involving words like forever, eternity, and judgment.”"
And Odin while immortal is not eternal. Not even close. Judgement is waiting for him as well I presume.
So of course reality is going to survive overall. Mortal world. At least part of nevernever.
But I'm quite sure Odin and Valhalla are goners - though maybe some Einhernjarns shall survive at least longer in this battle to help.
I'm quite sure Faerie Queen mantles can also be destroyed by the end - maybe some more ancient Titan or Goddess reforged from remains.
And in terms of Murphy's afterlife. I'm not sure. I mean she has issues, she never get to solve really, because damn if her all INDEPENDENT WOMAN facade is not a way to push down own grief and trauma. That's why I hoped we gonna get book with Oracle!Murphy to force her in new position and unravel it a bit, but nope - she run straight back to her former self. But also - because this she can have problem working for Odin.
Now she's stuck in Valhalla for like maybe even half of millenium, and then - remember MONOC securities are Mercenaries. Not really moral ones - Odin works with Marcone - that's not something Murphy would like to do. Murphy was never fighting for fighting sake. Not a warrior per se. More like vigilante (because even as a cop she has bit loose relation with laws and rules), punisher of wrongdoers, vindicator. Not berserker mercenary.
And as Konrad Curze once said "Death is nothing compared to vindication"
So by refusing to be servant of her own God, she was claimed as servant to army of pagan God.
Not even Irish one, dammit. She's gonna be pissed :P
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At the end Odin with all his flaws is about protecting this world, about protecting humanity. That is where the gods are for and that is what Odin is still doing. I can imagine Murphy going for that.
He and Uriel have discussed Murphy over lunch. It will be all right.
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At the end Odin with all his flaws is about protecting this world, about protecting humanity. That is where the gods are for and that is what Odin is still doing. I can imagine Murphy going for that.
Look for all her cop style - Murphy is as CG as Harry, two peas in a pod.
I mean Mab is for defending reality like probably most of all supes, Dresden knows it - and hey guess how well this shit works for them :P
He and Uriel have discussed Murphy over lunch. It will be all right.
I don't thin Vadderung has discuss anything - this battle was fought under his banner - he has his choosing of slain warriors.
Now whether he'll be happy of this choice - that's another question.