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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: toodeep on February 12, 2021, 01:26:19 PM
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I just realized a problem with Battle Ground - the Huntsmen, non mortal fomor, killed 95% of the people in the neighborhoods they went through. This is after Mab told all of Chicago to essentially stay inside for safety. What happened to their thresholds? Seems like Jim just forgot about them.
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I just realized a problem with Battle Ground - the Huntsmen, non mortal fomor, killed 95% of the people in the neighborhoods they went through. This is after Mab told all of Chicago to essentially stay inside for safety. What happened to their thresholds? Seems like Jim just forgot about them.
Maybe they found a way around that? Most Fomor begin as human, maybe there is enough left over to neutralize the threshold? Or it is something that fell through the cracks on not only Jim's part but the Beta Readers as well?
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I just realized a problem with Battle Ground - the Huntsmen, non mortal fomor, killed 95% of the people in the neighborhoods they went through. This is after Mab told all of Chicago to essentially stay inside for safety. What happened to their thresholds? Seems like Jim just forgot about them.
Some beings can't go through at all, others can (the toad demon went into Harry's place). I believe they leave a lot of power at the threshold, but many can still cross it in some way. Black Court need invited in, Whites can walk right in.
Staying inside for safety I think had more to do with not being out in the open for easy slaughter. Going room to room is slower than mass killings on the streets.
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The Huntsmen gain the strength of those in their "pack" who have died.
They're still berserk killer-mans. So what if they go from the strength of 6 berserk killer-mans to one berserk killer-mans? That's still a fit, trained, dangerous berserker in the basement.
Plus, how do thresholds interact with Kool-aid man wall attacks? Does it stop counting as a house after X damage?
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The Huntsmen gain the strength of those in their "pack" who have died.
They're still berserk killer-mans. So what if they go from the strength of 6 berserk killer-mans to one berserk killer-mans? That's still a fit, trained, dangerous berserker in the basement.
Plus, how do thresholds interact with Kool-aid man wall attacks? Does it stop counting as a house after X damage?
Depends entirely on the "home". A home that's had a family in there for a while that has lots of love will be much more difficult to take down than an apartment with someone who lives alone
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I think we will see this when we get Morts POV set during Battle Ground.
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Some beings can't go through at all, others can (the toad demon went into Harry's place). I believe they leave a lot of power at the threshold, but many can still cross it in some way. Black Court need invited in, Whites can walk right in.
Staying inside for safety I think had more to do with not being out in the open for easy slaughter. Going room to room is slower than mass killings on the streets.
I think there was a bit of a loop hole as far as the frog demon was concerned. The first being that not being a family, Harry's threshold wasn't that strong to begin with. However he did have wards, the bigger loop hole I believe is Susan went ahead and opened the door, though Harry was shouting for her not to from the bathroom[he was in he shower at the time] and this implied an invitation, thus nullifying any threshold protection. The other time this happened was when the zombies marched through his place back in Dead Beat.. They managed to overcome his wards and the threshold thing, but at the moment I cannot remember how that was explained away.
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I think there was a bit of a loop hole as far as the frog demon was concerned. The first being that not being a family, Harry's threshold wasn't that strong to begin with. However he did have wards, the bigger loop hole I believe is Susan went ahead and opened the door, though Harry was shouting for her not to from the bathroom[he was in he shower at the time] and this implied an invitation, thus nullifying any threshold protection. The other time this happened was when the zombies marched through his place back in Dead Beat.. They managed to overcome his wards and the threshold thing, but at the moment I cannot remember how that was explained away.
Yeah, I agree. It's kind of confusing. Maybe we need a WoJ on this. I suspect that some beings are unable because of certain rules (TWG or something like that), and others don't because of the Laws enforced by Mab. They could cross but fear her wrath. WoJ is required though I think to know for certain
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Mab has nothing to do with enforcing thresholds, where did you get that idea?
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The zombies beat down Harry's wards by numbers and brute force. They took a lot of losses but being zombies just kept coming in waves until the energy in the wards was expended. I suspect that the Huntsmen just beat their way in to most houses and stabbed the occupant, dragged or flushed out others and generally acted like your typical barbarian horde. I'm sure they lost quite a few to firearms but again, they didn't care about dying during battle so just mobbed the occupants.
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There is this bit earlier in the book:
I could see figures, furry or fur-clad, rushing toward the open front doors of one of a row of rental houses. There were few supernaturally significant thresholds to speak of on such properties, little protection from the powers of darkness.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 83). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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I think there was a bit of a loop hole as far as the frog demon was concerned. The first being that not being a family, Harry's threshold wasn't that strong to begin with. However he did have wards, the bigger loop hole I believe is Susan went ahead and opened the door, though Harry was shouting for her not to from the bathroom[he was in he shower at the time] and this implied an invitation, thus nullifying any threshold protection.
It didn't nullify the threshold:
The demon, squat and bulkier than a human, was standing in the doorway, both long-fingered, pad-tipped hands leaning forward toward the inside of the house. It paused as though resting against a light screen.
“Why isn’t it coming in?” Susan asked from the far corner, near the door.
Her back was pressed to the wall, and her eyes were wide and terrified. My God, I thought, just don’t pass out on me, Susan.
“Homestead laws,” I said. “It isn’t a mortal creature. It has to gather its energy to push through the barrier around a home.”
Butcher, Jim. Storm Front (The Dresden Files, Book 1) (pp. 159-160). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Besides which, Susan's actions didn't matter as far as Harry's threshold went. She didn't live there. She couldn't invite anything in.
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Plus, how do thresholds interact with Kool-aid man wall attacks? Does it stop counting as a house after X damage?
The comic War Cry pretty much said yes, but X is a hell of a lot.
I thought Vadderung implied the huntsmen were 'grown' from heavily modified human captives. Thresholds might not take a whole lot of their power from them.
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Mab has nothing to do with enforcing thresholds, where did you get that idea?
She enforces the rules laid out in the accords such as a person being under certain protections while being a guest. I specifically said "rules by TWG or something" when it came to the threshold itself. Also I was trying to find the woj but am almost positive he said something about home protections falling under Winter's perview. Not the threshold part but something else. Like if you come in as a guest, you have to act like one.
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Besides which, Susan's actions didn't matter as far as Harry's threshold went. She didn't live there. She couldn't invite anything in.
She did open the door though, I don't think it matters if she lived there or not, opening the door is all it took. It couldn't come in at first, but then it overcame it. No explanation..
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She did open the door though, I don't think it matters if she lived there or not, opening the door is all it took. It couldn't come in at first, but then it overcame it. No explanation..
I sighed. “Look. Homes, places that people live in and love and have built a life in have a kind of power of their own. If a bunch of strangers had been trouping in and out all day, I wouldn’t have any trouble with the threshold, but you’re not. You guys are friends.” Like Murphy had said—this one was personal.
Stallings frowned. “So you can’t come in?”
“Oh, I could come in,” I said. “But I’d be leaving most of what I can do at the door. The threshold would mess with me being able to work any forces in the house.”
“What shit,” Rudolph snorted. “Count Dracula.”
“Harry,” Stallings said. “Can’t we invite you in?”
“No. Has to be someone who lives there. Besides, it’s polite,” I said. “I don’t like to go places where I’m not welcome. I’d feel a lot better if I knew it was all right with Mrs. Malone for me to be here.”
Grave Peril (The Dresden Files, Book 3) (p. 110). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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She enforces the rules laid out in the accords such as a person being under certain protections while being a guest. I specifically said "rules by TWG or something" when it came to the threshold itself. Also I was trying to find the woj but am almost positive he said something about home protections falling under Winter's perview. Not the threshold part but something else. Like if you come in as a guest, you have to act like one.
That's guest-right. That's its own thing; it's not inherent.
Guest-right is a fascinating tradition- in Greece, diplomats were people who had ancestral rights to stay/host people in other cities; and may have been an outgrowth of relationships- in short, guest-right as an extension of kinslaying taboos. In many cultures, the breaking of bread and/or sharing of salt (which had fascinating religious taboos around it, and was considered to have power over spirits, household gods, et al) gave you certain rights.
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I sighed. “Look. Homes, places that people live in and love and have built a life in have a kind of power of their own. If a bunch of strangers had been trouping in and out all day, I wouldn’t have any trouble with the threshold, but you’re not. You guys are friends.” Like Murphy had said—this one was personal.
Stallings frowned. “So you can’t come in?”
“Oh, I could come in,” I said. “But I’d be leaving most of what I can do at the door. The threshold would mess with me being able to work any forces in the house.”
“What shit,” Rudolph snorted. “Count Dracula.”
“Harry,” Stallings said. “Can’t we invite you in?”
“No. Has to be someone who lives there. Besides, it’s polite,” I said. “I don’t like to go places where I’m not welcome. I’d feel a lot better if I knew it was all right with Mrs. Malone for me to be here.”
Grave Peril (The Dresden Files, Book 3) (p. 110). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
All Harry seems to be saying is he doesn't want to push it. It also contradicts with what happened with the Frog Demon who didn't seem to be restricted in any way once he entered Harry's place. A couple of things don't wash here, 1] bachelor or not, this was still his home, do his threshold should be as strong as any body else's place. 2] Rented or not, it is still his home, home ownership shouldn't make any difference.
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The thing about Thresholds is that they stop the vast majority of magic. The Huntsmen aren't very magical to begin with. Having been human originally, they have a natural physical ability to cross thresholds. They also fight using spears and physical enhancements, but no overt magic. So it's more like crossing a threshold is as irrelevant to weakening them as it would be to one of Marcone's thugs.
That said, their one major magic of one's strength passing to others in the group when it dies, THAT could theoretically be prevented by a threshold. Which means it's possible to isolate one Huntsman inside a threshold while killing off the others and he wouldn't get the power boost. So it's a potential way to exploit it (though admittedly a niche one, because good luck keeping one caged up in there).
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All Harry seems to be saying is he doesn't want to push it.
No, he said plain as day that someone who lives there has to give the invitation.
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1] bachelor or not, this was still his home, do his threshold should be as strong as any body else's place. 2] Rented or not, it is still his home, home ownership shouldn't make any difference.
Actually the rules do make sense. It's about intent, and belief. Living in a home, building memories, experiences are about establishing a place as yours. Your domain. Much like Harry laying claim to Demon Reach. A family in a home see it as their own much more strongly than someone renting a place.
In most cases does a renter really see the place as their home? I don't think so. They know in their mind they don't even own the place, and it belongs to the landlord. Also by renting, do they intend on living their for a really long period? Probably not. The moment they can afford a better place, they would probably move. It's not about having your own place, it's about seeing your place as your Home. YOUR domain. Belief is power.
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OT, but I enjoyed seeing the Huntsmen; I remember them from The High King. I am sure Jim is an Alexander reader, though of course he'll be familiar with the actual legends Alexander used.
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OT, but I enjoyed seeing the Huntsmen; I remember them from The High King. I am sure Jim is an Alexander reader, though of course he'll be familiar with the actual legends Alexander used.
He has stated repeatedly in interviews for years that the Chronicles of Prydain are one of his favourite series. There are clear links to the series in the Dresden Files. I am sure Jim did some research into the original legends behind them - but Jim often just takes the bits he like anyway (like most good authors) and shapes them as needed.
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the bigger loop hole I believe is Susan went ahead and opened the door, though Harry was shouting for her not to from the bathroom[he was in he shower at the time] and this implied an invitation, thus nullifying any threshold protection.
I don't think so. The toad demon had to overcome the threshold even with the door open. Harry has said that it has to be a resident to invite someone in over the threshold on multiple occasions. For example in GP and GS. GP was at Malone's house. GS was when Sir Stuart invited Harry in, and Harry took this to mean that Sir Stuart was considered family by Mort.
The two big "loopholes" for Harry's apartment were that it's an apartment and Harry's a bachelor.
It couldn't come in at first, but then it overcame it. No explanation..
Bob explains it. Harry's threshold is crap and the demon only did physical stuff after coming in.
1] bachelor or not, this was still his home, do his threshold should be as strong as any body else's place. 2] Rented or not, it is still his home, home ownership shouldn't make any difference.
The books consistently disagree.
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Ok so, couple of ideas here,
The road demon didn't come of his own accord, he was sent, sent by a mortal human. That might have effected his ability to cross the threshold successfully. Case in point, grevane sending zombies into Harry's house, the only way that should be possible is because they were tied to him. Being physical vessels power by magic it should have torn them apart to enter but that wasn't an issue then.
As for the huntsmen, they, like the kraken may have been human/mortal once. So they might have been able to break thresholds without as much issue. I'm starting to think quite a few supernatural creatures were once human before becoming something else, and what they become changes how they interact with thresholds directly. Take ghouls, pretty sure they were originally human, do ghouls have problems with thresholds? Idk, but it's never been mentioned either way that I recall, but I'm thinking they aren't bothered by it, existing with limited magical properties and having a flesh and blood body, I think they can walk right through. It's only things existing from magic/in the NN that seem to have threshold issues I think?
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Ok so, couple of ideas here,
The road demon didn't come of his own accord, he was sent, sent by a mortal human. That might have effected his ability to cross the threshold successfully. Case in point, grevane sending zombies into Harry's house, the only way that should be possible is because they were tied to him. Being physical vessels power by magic it should have torn them apart to enter but that wasn't an issue then.
As for the huntsmen, they, like the kraken may have been human/mortal once. So they might have been able to break thresholds without as much issue. I'm starting to think quite a few supernatural creatures were once human before becoming something else, and what they become changes how they interact with thresholds directly. Take ghouls, pretty sure they were originally human, do ghouls have problems with thresholds? Idk, but it's never been mentioned either way that I recall, but I'm thinking they aren't bothered by it, existing with limited magical properties and having a flesh and blood body, I think they can walk right through. It's only things existing from magic/in the NN that seem to have threshold issues I think?
I think that it is with the huntsmen just like with white court vampires and wizards. They leave a lot of their power behind. But does that really matter when they enter a house armed and in numbers and physically trained?
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I think that it is with the huntsmen just like with white court vampires and wizards. They leave a lot of their power behind. But does that really matter when they enter a house armed and in numbers and physically trained?
seems about right.