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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on June 24, 2011, 04:50:41 AM
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I am working on a master of the swarm power for a plot npc in my game and was having trouble getting it right so am looking for advice on how other people would do it.
The aim of the Power is to incubate a swarm of nasties inside an opponent and when he is taken out (probably using the venemous trapping) cause a swarm of nasties to burst out of him and attack everything in the zone other than the insect master. So far I am working using a mod of venemous claws and breath weapon to represent the inpregnation process but am having trouble figuring out how to stat a swarm of insects that attack everyone other than the owner of the power. Does anyone have any ideas how this could be done using the DFRP system.
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If you just want a one time effect (or one solely devoted to this one NPC) and not a power that you expect PCs to pick up then you could just say that when he takes someone out it creates an environmental hazard or a single zone wide attack. Charge one or two refresh for it. One of the other options could be modeling it after summoning and binding, but that's already pretty hand-wavy in the first place and not really quick or easy, so I figure just do whatever works.
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Since it is a new swarm that is created, you could define it as a Summon, where it uses the being taken out as fuel to power the complexity of the summon of another of its kind.
Or just look at how Black and Red Court Vampires are dealt with. Both of those are monsters that can make more monsters by using their victim's body.
As for the swarm powers:
Flight
Physical Immunity (catch is zone wide attacks, fire and gas)
Venomous claws
Gaseous form
Pack instincts (swarm instincts) and echoes of the beast could be appropriate as well
Possibly include a stunt to reflect the alien mind, just in case someone tried to use mental powers or the Sight on them, or just have a bunch of aspects to reflect that.
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Other concepts that would use the same gimmick:
Classic zombies: venomous bite that eventually turns target into a zombie. In most zombie movies the bite is incurable, which in game mechanics would probably be a stunt or two that treats the poison as if it had been inflicted by much stronger fists attack. But the zombification is usually a bit slower. Maybe it does damage every scene (ie 15 minutes) instead of every exchange.
Naturally, any mechanic that makes it too easy or quick to turn a victim into a new monster could result in the world getting consumed by bug swarms, zombies or vampires in short order.
And the casualty count could go very fast in a hurry if the swarm gets beyond the initial summoners command.
Oooh, creepy adventure idea: Party has to go into the Nevernever to find the source of the swarm to cut it off. Otherwise, more and more swarms will just keep getting summoned from the Nevernever...
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I can think of a few ways to do this.
I recommend the Amorphous Form and Dangerous Aura custom powers.
Gaseous Form + Dangerous Aura gives you pretty much everything you need.
A stunt giving zone-wide attacks with Fists would also work.
A reflavoured Wizard's Constitution could represent the way that the hive replenishes itself.
Also, I agree with most of what Michael Sandy said.
If you like, I can write the swarm up for you. Just tell me how powerful you want it to be and what interpretation you like best.
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Expanding on my earlier point:
Any monster that can rapidly reproduce itself is likely to be a very central issue in the campaign. PCs are very likely to want to squash it as early as possible, as hard as possible. There is no such thing as "excessive force" in containing a zombie incursion.
If you make the swarm generated by one victim formidable, then even monsters like the Black Court look like acceptable allies in wiping them out. After all, if the swarm generated by one victim can so easily make more of itself, they could wipe out the Black Court's food supply. And if they gain power in numbers, they REALLY have to be taken out fast.
So I suggest that at least the early individual swarms not be that powerful. Scary, especially their implications, but not much harder to deal with than individual zombies are in zombie movies.
But if the summoner is unchecked, then later swarms would be bigger, hungrier, maybe with Blood Drinker so they can heal themselves if they kill a prey in combat.
Perhaps you could introduce that development after the swarms have devoured a vampire of some species.
I suggest writing up the swarm generated by one victim as fairly weak. The swarm generated by a lot of victims together would have the AoE physical attacks and higher stats.
If you don't want them replicating TOO fast, have the individual swarms WITHOUT the poisonous attack. Only when several swarms merge into a larger one does it get the ability to implant a new swarm.
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The Power I was originally thinking of creating would have been more like Sanctaphrax idea in that killing an enemy would be a justification for some area damage which would disappear at the end of the scene like the Bioshock Plasmid,intimidating rather than powerful. But after reading what people have said about the potential dangers of ever expanding swarms I think I will now go for the most dangerous version possible just because I can now use it for plot rather than another scary NPC assassin.
I will now probably use some form of Sponsored hive magic for the NPC Hivemaster with a gimick that it can gain power by how many people have been previously killed in the scene and give any insects summoned in this way the ability to lay eggs in the bodies of the deseased which will hatch in a couple of scenes time.
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So, would you like me to write this up for you?
And if so:
How powerful should they be?
Would you prefer Gaseous Form + Dangerous Aura or a more traditional monster build?
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I would be really helpful if you write it up for me, they be pretty powerful enough that in massive numbers they could pose a real threat too post submerged level characters. I might mod them a bit if they spawn from the body of anything particularly powerful.
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Okay, here's a basic mook swarm. It's dangerous by most standards, but I don't think it's up to the power level that you want. I'll put up a much tougher elite swarm later.
Basic Swarm (Feet In The Water)
High Concept: Man-Eating Magical Bug Swarm
Other Aspects: Loyal To The Summoner, Incubated In Human Flesh, Apocalypse Scenario
Skills:
Great: Fists
Good: Endurance, Athletics
Fair: Stealth, Alertness, Survival
Average: Investigation, Intimidation, Conviction, Discipline
Stunts:
Spread Out (Fists): May take a -2 penalty to hit in order to attack an entire zone.
Powers:
Lay Eggs [-0] (Creates new swarms out of taken-out victims. Plot-device power, so no refresh cost.)
Wings [-1]
Blood Drinker [-1]
Pack Instincts [-1]
Echoes Of The Beast (Insect) [-1]
Extra-Dangerous Aura [-3]
Amorphous Form [-1]
Physical Immunity [-8]
The Catch (Standard Swarm Vulnerabilities) [+4]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch (Dispersal) [+1]
Total Refresh Cost:
-14
Refresh Total:
-8
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Elite Swarm (Chest Deep)
High Concept: Man-Eating Magical Bug Swarm
Other Aspects: Loyal To The Summoner, Incubated In Human Flesh, Apocalypse Scenario, Holy Shit That Is A Lot Of Bugs!
Skills:
Superb: Fists, Endurance
Great: Athletics, Alertness
Good: Intimidation, Survival
Fair: Discipline, Investigation
Average: Conviction, Stealth
Stunts:
Spread Out (Fists): May take a -2 penalty to hit in order to attack an entire zone.
Custom Stunt Of Questionable Balance (Fists): No penalty for attacking an entire zone.
Custom Stunt Of Even More Questionable Balance (Fists): May make poison maneuvers against entire zones.
We Have Reserves (Endurance): Extra mild consequence.
Powers:
Lay Eggs [-0] (Creates new swarms out of taken-out victims. Plot-device power, so no refresh cost.)
Venomous Claws [-3]
True Aim (Fists) [-1]
Wings [-1]
Blood Drinker [-1]
Pack Instincts [-1]
Echoes Of The Beast (Insect) [-1]
Large Hyper-Dangerous Aura [-6]
Amorphous Form [-1]
Physical Immunity [-8]
The Catch (Standard Swarm Vulnerabilities) [+4]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch (Unknown for Toughness, Dispersal for Recovery) [+0]
Total Refresh Cost:
-29
Refresh Total:
-21
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Area poison attacks are very dangerous. Especially since they require an endurance success against fist 6. The poison doesn't go away if the defender saves once, either.
One hit by that elite creature, and everything in the zone is going to die without medical treatment.
I think that restricting the poison attack to what the swarm is focused on is sufficiently deadly.
I do think the swarm should be able to do a maneuver against everybody in the zone. "Everybody in the zone has the aspect 'bugs are crawling all over you'" That means any AoE directed at the swarm will hit people who have bugs on them.
Something else to make them creepy:
Those biting insects? They just sucked a little of your blood and then flew off to an evil thaumaturgist. Yes, that means those bugs will follow you and attack you sometime when it really isn't convenient.
I think one of the creepiest things about fighting such a swarm would be if the summoner can direct it so that it has tactics. And if the swarm has some bodies to feed on to replentish itself with Blood Drinker. So the swarm flies off, nibbles on a pedestrian and comes back at the party. Or even if it just chews up some of the expendable cultists for food.
I suggest reducing their power a bit, but having several swarm units in the encounter.
After the encounter, the party should feel tired, covered in bug guts, and unless they somehow lucked out and got the summoner, be aware that they could encounter even more bugs next time, putting some time pressure on them.
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I am ok with Area Poision attack it make sense for the creatures (thousands of stings, suckers etc) and at the refresh level I am dealing with most of the PC have toughness powers which reduce the effectiveness of poison immensly, I know that most enemies can be taken out by posion inventually but in my experience with creatures with toughness powers won't be that badly effected in the usual length of a combat. For the level of refresh my players are on they will pose a real challenge to my party.
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I would put the Nevernever location associated with the source of the bugs close to Summer. Strong life force and unregulated growth seems like a twisted summer thing.
I vaguely recall some Lovecraftian horror that involved a swarm of bugs.
A couple of ideas:
If you go with a large number of weaker swarms, then you can have a siege scenario, where the party forts up, perhaps with magic walls, or improvised defenses, dealing with the bugs poring slowly through, and having to figure a way out or to reverse the siege. Make it more of an endurance fight, as the total number of bugs seems endless. If the bugs do things like suddenly withdraw into the roof or floor, or other tactical maneuvers, the party will wonder after the battle if they actually got all of the swarms.
Options for fighting the swarm:
Form a Raid(tm). Get lots of insecticide, lots of anti-bug armor. Perhaps fireproof suits (thaumaturgical prep?) and just burn everything.
Find the local bat cave, and bring a few million allies to the fight.
Go after the source, in the Nevernever
Scholarly: use pheromones to lure the bugs, talk to a beekeeper, find out what preys on various bugs. Maybe get a type of tiny parasitic wasp that lays ITS eggs in that kind of bug. A human controlled swarm may not engage in the normal self-cleaning anti-parasite mode that an uncontrolled swarm would.
Massive quantities of flypaper
Thaumaturgy: Use the swarm against itself. Magic directed at one example of the tightly linked swarm could affect all, provided the party can pump enough power into their thaumaturgy before the link burns out.
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If your party is nearing Senior Council status, and most have toughness, then yeah the elite makes a good mook for them.
I am guessing the summoner has Lawbreaker 1st and 7th. If he is challenging Senior Council level parties, he is backed by a Major threat from beyond, not just a lucky warlock.
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I am probably going to have the bugs wipe out a Mega City probably one so close to the heart of the red court that the white council probably won't get involved. I am probably going to toss a coin to decide if the Warlock is from the White Council acting in a way he thinks is best for the world by magically enhancing these bugs to attack the red court or if the warlock is just insane. So the party is going to have to deal with billions of bugs, dozens of swarms and a poltical global nightmare the sorts of which will change the balance of power in the entire world, I love escalation.
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Ok, there is submerged, and there is, "I have a boat and I am collecting two of every species" power level. Holy freaking apocalypse, destroy a major city just as Background? Yoicks! High stakes escalation indeed!
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Yeah, the area poison bit is nasty. That's why I called it "Custom Stunt Of Even More Questionable Balance".
I shot high on the power level because I remember some old post where ways and means made his group sound ludicrously powerful. Truth is, these guys are mostly good at wearing out lots of weak enemies over time. A short, brutal fight with small numbers of powerful opponents will end badly for them (assuming some way to satisfy the catch on the Physical Immunity).
By the way, ways and means, how strong is your group? Can you post their stats?
I have the Senior Council at 30+ refresh, and I don't know if this game remains viable past 18 refresh. I'm quite interested to find out how high the system can go before breaking down.
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Well, at high levels there is no real cap on thaumaturgical ritual power. You get a bunch of people with discipline 6 pumping 2 power an exchange into a spell, and the HUGE number of declarations they can have, and you could have a circle of 3 wizards pumping out unstoppable death spells in less than an hour.
At high levels, wizards can just waltz through mortals. Strength 9 personal veil that I can see out of? No problem. Then extend it for another 10 exchanges for 1 stress? A strength 10 block would stop pretty much anything a mortal could throw. The mortals could put maneuver aspects on the environment, but never hit the wizard themselves, provided the wizard was aware of the threat vector.
Not to mention, at high levels they can probably do a sponsored magic short ranged teleport if there is no threshold blocking, provided the wizard has a map of the building or area to use as a link.
Just designing the world become tricky when you have such powerful applications in the hands of the PCs and their peers.
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Actually what has utterly unbalanced my campaign hasen't actually been the characters who are at 15 refresh it has been the ritual, because the the PC are almost all either evil or amoral (scion of chaos, kemmlerite necromancy, death addicted pyromancer, changeling assassin) and because they are working for the red court who is involved heavily in people trafficing and drugs with their resources they have access to as many sacrafises as they could possible want, which has lead to a main base with 100 shift wards, a spell to kill an entire division of chinese solider by using the uniforms of captured soliders a similcrum for the entire units uniforms and then torching them and other ridiculous things mostly involving zombies.
Other than that the necromancer has control 14 power 10 base evocationish attacks, the pyromancer has control 12 power 12 base evocation attacks, the changeling assassin has a fantastic lore artificer build with toughness and speed powers and the scion of chaos has Shard of Chaos (all thing equal before god sword) 8 accuracy, chaotic guardian, supernatural speed, mythic toughness (downgraded from PI once I got bored of constant mental stress), supernatural strength and a stunts or two. This is from memory as my characters keep their sheets due to me having lost them in the past. It is not a balance campaign mostly the party just win in the way which causes the most collateral damage.
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The thaumaturgy rules are slightly broken. But if you don't exploit that, I think that it's possible to run a balanced campaign at the power level that ways and means describes.
I've been running a game on the PbP forums for a little over six months at 18 refresh. It works fine, and I feel as though I've challenged the players appropriately.
Sure, they could easily destroy the city that the game is set in. But they don't want to. They're trying to protect it, and protection is harder than destruction.
In other news, it seems that the swarm isn't overpowered at all. That group can handle it.
PS: @w+m: The powers that you mention the Chaos Scion having add up to 16 refresh including the IoP bonus and not including stunts. What's up with that?
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I forgot the +2 ravens blood catch, it used to be a Sword of the Cross with PI but when he switched I let him change it for refresh purposes.
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Hey, wouldn't this be a great way to use Fractals? The "poison" itself would be like a weak creature attached to whomever was infected. If the host dies, then it becomes a standard swarm.
Edit: Also, they should be bees.
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I don't own Strands Of Fate or whatever other book fractals are from. I cannot comment.
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I don't own Strands Of Fate or whatever other book fractals are from. I cannot comment.
I think they're talking about the concept of FATE mechanics as fractals - using the same mechanics across different scales. See here (http://www.faterpg.com/2011/stress-consequences-and-the-fractal/) and here (http://whirlmeister.blogspot.com/2008/04/great-fate-fractal-experiment.html) for a couple potentially relevant posts.
Though I do have to admit the overuse of jargon doesn't really help get the point across. :/
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Thank you, UmbraLux.
I suppose it could work, but it seems overly complex.
What benefits would using a fractal provide that using ordinary poison rules + GM fiat-based monster spawning wouldn't?
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Thank you, UmbraLux.
I suppose it could work, but it seems overly complex.
What benefits would using a fractal provide that using ordinary poison rules + GM fiat-based monster spawning wouldn't?
Here's what you might do instead of going with even having poisoned claws:
If the Swarm inflicts a Consequence, then the Consequence is Swarm Infection, which is a fractal (e.g. essentially a creature). How powerful it is depends on the severity of the consequence.
It has a skill rating equal to the shifts in the consequence. So either 2, 4, 6, or 8. An infection through a minor wound isn't as bad as one transferred as a major hit.
It will have stunts, and we can use them to define how it uses its skill. We might have:
- Difficult Movement: The illness due to infection makes it difficult to move about, it creates a zone border for the infected character equal to the infection strength.
- Worsening Condition: If the infectee takes a more severe consequence than this infection, then he insteads chooses a consequence to replace the infection, and the infection moves up to the more severe level.
- Attack!: The Infection attacks the target at the end of each scene, using its skill defended by endurance (by default). Or, it can choose to make Mental or Psychological attacks, and inflict consequences to alter the behavior of the infectee (e.g. making him run away from those trying to help him).
- Resilient: Swarm Infection will not heal own its own. It must be killed. It defends itself from all attacks uses its skill.
Stress Boxes:
The Infection has its own stress boxes, equal to the severity of the consequence it is placed in (2, 4, 6, 8).
It might have the aspects:
Revolting Parasite
Bees. My God.
Why do this? Because it makes the infection bigger and more significant. It makes it more thematic. It also means it is something the players are going to actually spend more time dealing with and confronting. Think of the SG1 Episode where Teal'c gets infected by a thing similar to this. The WHOLE Episode is about the infection. So a system like this is appropriate if you want someone being infected to be a big deal in a story sense, rather than a big deal in a just a first aid sense.
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Okay, that could work.
Although I'd probably ditch Difficult Movement, since it's a really really severe penalty. Maybe replace it with something that lets the poison attack every exchange in combat, since part of the point of the original design was to maximise the number of attacks per round.
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Yeah, it was just meant to be an example that can be modified as needed. Difficult Movement is nasty there, I agree. Other options might be to change it so it is half as effect except in the direction the Infection is trying to make you go (so the GM can go, hey, if you go down that Dark Alley there's no border!).
Here's a webpage where they talk about fractals for consequences. (http://www.faterpg.com/tag/fractal/)
Edit: One thing you can do with an infection like that, which is pretty neat is tag "Bees. My God" when doing something particularly effective on insects (maybe a treatment that is a cold attack). Hmm, not sure if you'd want a stunt cover some attacks like that affecting the patient or not -- you could probably handle that by using a compel on the character's consequence to be hit by an appropriate attack to (but in the case of a cold attack, only the infection would get hit by the +2 bonus on the attack).
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Thank you, UmbraLux.
I suppose it could work, but it seems overly complex.
. Sure. The fractal concept works well for aspects. I'm less convinced it's a good fit for stunts / powers.
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For Difficult Movement, I was mostly worried about how it would stop supplemental movement. Halving its strength wouldn't do much about that.
Perhaps just reduce Athletics slightly. Then again, that could also be pretty nasty for characters who dodge a lot.
Well, I suppose its no big deal. I think that ways and means has enough for his game now, so I'm going to stop worrying.
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Thanks all.
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You're very welcome.