ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DF Books => Topic started by: jamescagney22 on July 03, 2017, 11:43:39 PM

Title: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: jamescagney22 on July 03, 2017, 11:43:39 PM
So I have been looking for the answers to these two questions for a long time, and have come up with very little in the books, so I hoping someone else might know if I overlooked something.
1. What was  the purpose ofArchangel the location and how many inhabitants did it have? Bob reffered to it as a brute squad in Dead Beat and made it a separate group from the Wardens, and other members of the White Council, and in Blood Rites Ebenezar said that the attack killed more members of the White Council in its history so it must of been a very important group.
2. What type of magic did Aleron LaFortier use to justify him being a Senior Council level wizard?. Again in Dead Beat strangely enough considering my questions, Harry said that Ebenezar was the youngest and least powerful of the Senior Council and considering he was the Blackstaff he must of been more formidable then he appeared.
I only ask because I do not think these will ever get answered in the books and again just hoping for clarification if I missed something.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: Rasins on July 05, 2017, 03:11:13 PM
For both of those, we have theories, but no real proof.

Archangel was home to a group of heavy hitters.  Wizards like Harry in the BOOM arts.  How many, no idea, but a bunch.

As to LaFortier - what he specialized in doesn't really matter.  Inclusion on the SC is based on Age first.  Everyone older that Ebenezar declined the offer to be on the SC, and that's why Eb was able to be in a position to help Harry.  As to his power, remember that Harry didn't know Eb was the Blackstaff back then.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: jamescagney22 on July 05, 2017, 09:02:06 PM
I was confused about Archangel because I believed that the Wardens were for all intents and purposes the heavy hitters but it is possible that some wizards would rather be less formal like Ebenezar was after he left the Wardens. As for LaFortier Harry did know that he was the Black-staff and still made that statement hence my confusion I mean Harry can be an unreliable narrator but I do not think he would drop the ball on something that important.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: Zaphodess on July 06, 2017, 11:21:22 AM
Power is something that isn't measured in exact scientific quantities. Knowledge is power, Lea said in GS that Mortimer Lindquist is in some respects much more powerful than Harry, Molly is much more powerful than him in the subtle applications of magic.

Eb is one of the top wizards when it comes to kaboom magic. So is Harry. Maybe Eb is similar to Harry when it comes to the kind of magic Molly is really good at: His veils might not be top notch for example (but probably way better than Harry's by now).
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: Rasins on July 06, 2017, 02:17:10 PM
I kind of equate the Wardens to police officers, taking care of the day-to-day police work.

I think of the Brute Force as being like SWAT, or Special Forces. 

Now in the Wouncil, they aren't really part of the Wardens, but then they might have been.  We really don't have much information about them, or than they are dead.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: Warden John Marcone on July 06, 2017, 02:54:48 PM
Peitrovich was considered the Red Court Expert, so the way I read it was the Archangel garrison was made up of the vampire specialists.  Wardens are your general purpose enforcers, the Brute Squad (such as it were) target specific threats.

Which would make their elimination at the outset of the war the absolute catastrophe it was.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: jamescagney22 on July 06, 2017, 04:52:50 PM
In hindsight perhaps each of the senior council has a role they fulfill for the council specifically, Merlin the leader, Rashid the Gatekeeper, Listen to Winds medicine expert, Martha Liberty information gathering, Ancient Mai ambassador to other supernatural powers, Simon Peitrovich and McCoy as the all around magical heavyweights which just leaves LaFortier and Cristos who seem useless in compared to the others.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: Rasins on July 06, 2017, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: jamescagney22 on July 06, 2017, 04:52:50 PM
In hindsight perhaps each of the senior council has a role they fulfill for the council specifically, Merlin the leader, Rashid the Gatekeeper, Listen to Winds medicine expert, Martha Liberty information gathering, Ancient Mai ambassador to other supernatural powers, Simon Peitrovich and McCoy as the all around magical heavyweights which just leaves LaFortier and Cristos who seem useless in compared to the others.

Lafortier was heavy into the minority groups.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: jamescagney22 on July 06, 2017, 11:05:50 PM
So I guess to generous LaFortier was organizing the troops and allies type. Well in the theory that apprentices take after their master we might see Cristos in action in Peace Talks and that might provide context.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: Warden John Marcone on July 06, 2017, 11:07:39 PM
Was Cristos his apprentice though?  I don't remember reading anything about that.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: jamescagney22 on July 06, 2017, 11:17:53 PM
Quote from: Warden John Marcone on July 06, 2017, 11:07:39 PM
Was Cristos his apprentice though?  I don't remember reading anything about that.
At the end of Turn Coat when he made Senior Council by blackmail Ebenezar mentioned that he was LaFortier's apprentice and that he was a Warden during the Rakshasa event in White Night. Which in hindsight may have been a Black Council method to get him on the Senior Council, we will know soon enough.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: Zaphodess on July 07, 2017, 10:31:55 AM
It didn't say "apprentice" though, just protégé. Which might very well mean that he used to be his apprentice. Cristos can't be that young any more or his appointment to the SC would be an absolute joke. So maybe it wasn't polite to call him someone's apprentice.

I had an idea about Archangel, based on the RPG info about what Simon did in 1918.
(click to show/hide)
So what if Archangel was more like a magic school or training camp, specialising in turning out future Wardens?

Ok, I know the RPG is not canon strictly speaking. But the info is usually good.
Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: Quantus on July 12, 2017, 07:25:19 PM
Quote from: Zaphodess on July 07, 2017, 10:31:55 AM
It didn't say "apprentice" though, just protégé. Which might very well mean that he used to be his apprentice. Cristos can't be that young any more or his appointment to the SC would be an absolute joke. So maybe it wasn't polite to call him someone's apprentice.
Agreed, though given the Centuries long timeline we're talking he could have become his protoge /after/ he gained full Council Status.  Apprenticeship seems to last a decade or so at most, during a wizards first 2-3 of them.  Meanwhile they arent given full respect until they've reached a century of membership (as denoted by the stole colors), so that's 70+ years that it would make sense for older Wizards to take the younger (but still full members under their proverbial wings). 

Similarly, in peacetime at least you'd need to be a full member before joining the wardens, so a protoge could accurately describe a quasi-Master/apprentice relationship during that phase of training. 

Hell, in SK or TC they were arguing that McCoy had not been with Harry long enough to call him his Apprentice, so protoge would be the next logical term

All that to say that Apprenticeship is a far more specific and formalized relationship to the WC, whereas protoge is a synonym being used in a more generic way. 

Title: Re: White Council Groups and Senior Council Clarification
Post by: jamescagney22 on July 13, 2017, 10:25:39 PM
Well in that case perhaps LaFortier was a Warden as masters and apprentices tend to share similar styles of magic, Ebenezar-Harry-Molly- very good at combat very different how they approach it.