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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Melendwyr on July 21, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
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I find myself frustrated by the meager-seeming amounts of magic that characters can manage to throw around in a single DFRPG conflict. Yet the stress mechanic is too important to eliminate or massively overhaul. I've come up with a hypothetical houserule that might permit characters to throw around more magic without blowing the limits entirely:
The first time a particular Rote spell is used in a given scene, it generates no 'default' stress. Stress that comes from channeling more energy than Conviction permits, or ignoring the requirements for spoken verbal triggers, and so forth, still applies. But the single point of stress that comes from casting any spell? Isn't present for the first in-scene casting.
Thoughts?
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I think it's good the way it is. For more spells to throw around, you can simply go for enchanted items. They can be set up similar to your rotes, and you can get a lot of uses out of them. Their drawback, of course, is that they are predetermined, but so are rote spells, so this would not be that much of an issue.
One more spell won't really do that much to begin with. You can easily do that with 5 or higher conviction, which gives you an additional mild mental consequence, which you can use for an additional spell.
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Could work. You'd have to raise the Refresh cost of Evocation or drop some bonuses from it to compensate, though.
But I wouldn't call the number of spells a DFRPG caster can use meager. In most of the games I've played, four spells has felt like plenty.
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Have you actually ever sat down with the novels and worked out how many spells Harry throws around in the equivalent of a 'scene'? Particularly in the later novels, in which it implied that either his capacity for magic has increased or he's become much more efficient (or both, of course).
Four or five spells doesn't cut it. And we're ignoring the point that some spells are inherently more magic-intensive than others, regardless of how they're customized.
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I have to disagree, four or five spells per scene is a ton. Plus, I've always felt like Harry just has multiple sources of "sponsored" magic to draw upon and permit more spell casting than your typical wizard. Mantle of the winter knight, demonsreach, soulfire, hellfire, etc. Not to mention the variety of enchanted items he uses. Just incur some debt to eat the stress and permit more casting. Harry also typically carries a gun or uses mundane attacks (fists and such) in combat. He isn't throwing spells all the time. Casting and spending that associated mental stress is something wizards should have to manage. The sponsored magic option provides a way to cast more frequently, but at a price.
Between enchanted items to create spell effects and sponsored magic, I've never felt a need to house rule further free casting or extra mental stress.
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Have you actually ever sat down with the novels and worked out how many spells Harry throws around in the equivalent of a 'scene'?
Spell(novel) <> Spell(game)
If Harry tells us that he is throwing around a few fireballs, that doesn't have to be a spell in the sense of the game. It can simply be flavor, it's a cool show, but it doesn't accomplish anything, so it doesn't cost anything.
Then, multiple spells in the novel can actually just be one spell in the game. For example when Harry throws a half dozen fireballs at someone, but only the last one hits, that doesn't have to be 6 spells, it can just be 1 spell, narrated to look like 6.
And last but not least, there could be mid-scene pauses. When a fight lasts longer than a chapter, it could be that when the chapter ends the scene ends and everyone gets to clear their stress tracks. I believe this is actually mentioned in YS, but I have no idea where. If I find it, I'll give you the page.
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Have you actually ever sat down with the novels and worked out how many spells Harry throws around in the equivalent of a 'scene'? Particularly in the later novels, in which it implied that either his capacity for magic has increased or he's become much more efficient (or both, of course).
Four or five spells doesn't cut it. And we're ignoring the point that some spells are inherently more magic-intensive than others, regardless of how they're customized.
Actually, I have. Harry almost never casts more than four or five distinct spells without a break in between.
In the later novels, he has one or more sponsored magics, which he is explicitly leaning on for extra gas in his tank -- sponsor debt to soak up the stress.
I think it's good the way it is. For more spells to throw around, you can simply go for enchanted items. They can be set up similar to your rotes, and you can get a lot of uses out of them. Their drawback, of course, is that they are predetermined, but so are rote spells, so this would not be that much of an issue.
One more spell won't really do that much to begin with. You can easily do that with 5 or higher conviction, which gives you an additional mild mental consequence, which you can use for an additional spell.
Funny story. One of my players just 'got' the idea of enchanted items (particularly after I explained to him that you could use the specializations and foci to boost the default power and usages for each slot). His reaction was, "...You've been trying to explain this for three scenarios. Why the hell didn't I listen?"
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Spell(novel) <> Spell(game)
If Harry tells us that he is throwing around a few fireballs, that doesn't have to be a spell in the sense of the game. It can simply be flavor, it's a cool show, but it doesn't accomplish anything, so it doesn't cost anything.
So if I cast a fireball but don't roll well enough to hit with it, it somehow doesn't inflict stress on me? And of course there are no meaningful reactions to an attempted fireball, like dodging, that would follow from an attempt. Which is free, because it didn't accomplish anything. Riiight.
Don't forget all of the relatively long-term spells Harry casts, which involve generating even more stress when they're extended.
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So if I cast a fireball but don't roll well enough to hit with it, it somehow doesn't inflict stress on me? And of course there are no meaningful reactions to an attempted fireball, like dodging, that would follow from an attempt. Which is free, because it didn't accomplish anything. Riiight.
No.
What he said was that what looks like six spells to a character might just be one spell to a player. You can totally describe your fire attack spell as a bunch of little fireballs, some of which miss even on a successful attack.
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No.
What he said was that what looks like six spells to a character might just be one spell to a player. You can totally describe your fire attack spell as a bunch of little fireballs, some of which miss even on a successful attack.
For example, the duel with Arriana -- there's a bit where Harry is saying he's continuously tearing rock off the wall to throw at her. That's one spell, even if, in the flavor, Harry is doing a bunch of rapid-fire smaller spells.
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So if I cast a fireball but don't roll well enough to hit with it, it somehow doesn't inflict stress on me? And of course there are no meaningful reactions to an attempted fireball, like dodging, that would follow from an attempt. Which is free, because it didn't accomplish anything. Riiight.
You misunderstand me. Say we are in a chase on foot. My action would be to roll athletics to get away from you. But because I'm a wizard and it looks good, I say that while I run, I throw a couple of fireballs behind me, without looking. I don't roll on those, they are not meant to accomplish anything, they are simply flavor for the chase. I could do the same with a gun, but I'm a wizard, so why not make it count?
The point is, that the fireball I throw in that case is not an action, it was never meant to accomplish anything, other than enrich the story. I don't get a benefit from it, my opponent doesn't get a penalty from it, it does nothing but look good. And that's why it doesn't need any stress.
If I am attempting to do something, that's my action. I have the chance of achieving something, so I have to pay for it. If my opponent rolls better, that's bad luck, but I don't get to say "nothing happened, so I won't pay". You pay for the chance of something happening, not for the actual outcome.
It's similar to when Harry does his "ventas servitas" to retrieve his staff. Most of the time it's just flavor. He could have just as well walked over and gotten it, there's no sense in taking stress. But when he does the same spell when talking to the photographer in Storm Front, he uses the same spell to intimidate the photographer with his power. In this case, the spell is supposed to actually accomplish something in the game, it's a maneuver to place something like "look at my fearsome powers" on the scene, that Harry can tag on an intimidation attack. And in that case, it will have cost him a point of stress.
Don't forget all of the relatively long-term spells Harry casts, which involve generating even more stress when they're extended.
Do you have an example of this?
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The big battle during White Night:
Fuego
Force Shield, extended and made reflective (it's notably more expensive than earlier versions)
Forzare as a area attack
another Force Shield which lasts for multiple exchanges
a rift to the Nevernever (which is elsewhere said to be very magic-intensive)
brings up the shield again
another Forzare blast, with Hellfire, multiple targets
a massive fire spell that turns an entire area to molten stone
another shield activation
and one final shield powered by Lara's kiss, which might involve a consequence - although there is no textual evidence of any lasting effects
Even assuming Sponsored Spellcasting handled the fire, and one of the force blasts, that's an absolute minimum of six castings. Assuming that Harry accepted mild consequences (which there is absolutely nothing in the text to suggest) he'd still have made four normal castings, which would fill his mental stress track completely. Assuming he didn't additionally extend any of the durational spells - that would put him way over the limit.
(I'll point out that Ramirez casts many potent spells with multiple targets that are nevertheless lethal despite having some serious injuries which would preclude his accepting consequences to cast, too. He does not seem to possess any kind of Sponsored Spellcasting.)
And, of course, he was subject to a massive psychic attack which would also produce stress and temporarily incapacitated him. Which by the rules he would be far more vulnerable to than most of the people in the battle, because he'd been casting spells, and in the RPG rules that produces stress on the mental track.
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The can easily be uses of his enchanted items, which would cut down on the stress.
Then I think there's at least one major break during the fight, which could have wiped the stress tracks.
Opening the rift might actually be a plot device. It's been talked about beforehand, bargained with Marcone, etc. Opening the rift might just be the action to activate this, but it doesn't have to be a spell from a mechanical standpoint.
The same actually goes for the final shield. I'd say both Lara and Harry took a consequence to power that, and that might have just been it. Or maybe it was just part of the cutscene after the fight was over.
That's my main point, really. Not everything that looks like a spell actually is a spell.
I will agree with you that if you shoot spells like you shoot a gun, 4 can be pretty few. But that's why you have to make them count. If the monster shook off your first spell, don't keep firing, safe your energy for things that matter and make your 4 spells count. If you can't find a way, retreat, regroup, research, try again. That's pretty much what happens to Harry on a regular basis.
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The can easily be uses of his enchanted items, which would cut down on the stress.
Nope. I didn't even mention the cases where his duster repelled something - those are the actual spells that he cast.
Then I think there's at least one major break during the fight, which could have wiped the stress tracks.
Wrong. There is a section of description in which Harry describes some of the many things happening all at once. There is no point in the battle where Harry can pause and collect himself, free from risk and the threat of having to respond at a moment's notice to lethal danger.
Opening the rift might actually be a plot device. It's been talked about beforehand, bargained with Marcone, etc. Opening the rift might just be the action to activate this, but it doesn't have to be a spell from a mechanical standpoint.
Other than it being a spell, which he cast. Marcone had no ability to open a rift, nor did anyone else who came through.
The same actually goes for the final shield. I'd say both Lara and Harry took a consequence to power that, and that might have just been it. Or maybe it was just part of the cutscene after the fight was over.
It's not included in the analysis - as I explicitly stated.
That's my main point, really. Not everything that looks like a spell actually is a spell.
You are either a liar or you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
This sort of name calling is a violation of forum precepts. Please review the Rules. http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.msg988906.html#msg988906 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.msg988906.html#msg988906) Edit your posts, and be civil on the Boards, just the same as you might if you were sitting in Jim or Iago's living room. ~Blaze, Moderator.
The rules as published do not permit scenes such as the ones that occur in the novels covered by the game. At most, they might be able to represent how magic works in the very earliest books. They are incapable of emulating the performance of wizards - not just Harry, but wizards generally. This is not something which can be handwaved away, it is a serious failure of the existing rules.
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You are either a liar or you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
Well, I guess this is my exit then.
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You are either a liar or you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
Uncool, dude.
As for the rules not quite simulating the books? You're right. No game EVER perfectly simulates the source material. Jim Butcher doesn't have to follow game theory or worry about game balance when writing.
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Actually, that there are distinct scenes within a long fight scene is exactly how one of the game's writers said those long fight scenes worked, mechanically.
Also, the accusations are really uncalled for.
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You are either a liar or you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
Etiquette.
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Etiquette.
All right, Taran. What's the polite way of saying that a person is either a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about?
Please refer to the "Book of Don't" (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21393.msg932261.html#msg932261) if you unaware of how to have polite conversation. You are a fairly new forum member, and may not be used to courtesy being a vital part of conversation, but you are being warned that violations of the precepts have consequences. ~ Blaze as Mod.
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All right, Taran. What's the polite way of saying that a person is either a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about?
Not calling them a liar or an idiot.
You are taking this discussion too seriously, and forgetting that not every single detail in either the mechanics or the flavor is reflected in both. The fight with Vitto and Madrigal and the fight with the ghouls are two distinct scenes. There's a chapter break and everything.
The game is not a hard-nosed, exacting simulation of every detail of the series. It is a game, meant to reflect the feel of the books as close as possible while being playable and fair.
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Not calling them a liar or an idiot.
If we don't call spades spades, then we'll slowly be inundated with liars and idiots, won't we?
The fight with Vitto and Madrigal and the fight with the ghouls are two distinct scenes. There's a chapter break and everything.
There's no 'chapter break' in the action, no period where Harry can compose himself. It's all one long conflict. The fact that it occurs across chapters is totally irrelevant - the break doesn't exist within the story, it's an artifact of the story being written out in novel form with a particular structure. The spells Harry casts before the battle aren't part of the analysis, because there's a period of speechmaking and talking that would obviously provide a chance to catch one's mental and physical breath. No such period occurs within the battle.
Just a little while ago we had people discussing a proposed rule that would let people clear their stress tracks in the middle of a conflict, and it was rejected with the reasoning that only one published ability permits that, and it's the Blood Drinker feature A Taste of Death - which requires completely draining a human being. It also banishes a mild consequence, admittedly.
Arbitrarily declaring that there are sustained pauses in the middle of a massive battle is worse than that proposed rule.
The game is not a hard-nosed, exacting simulation of every detail of the series. It is a game, meant to reflect the feel of the books as close as possible while being playable and fair.
The rules do not permit us to enact the most dramatic sections of the stories! These are not minor trivial details. By these rules, Harry Dresden would have taken himself out with stress and lost the major conflicts in each novel. How does that reflect the feel of the books?
For that matter, what's supposed to be playable and fair about limiting players to so few spells? I don't see much interesting about rendering your character unconscious, or worse, because you cast a minor spell multiple times. It's not a part of the stories at all.
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If we don't call spades spades, then we'll slowly be inundated with liars and idiots, won't we?
Okay, seriously. This is straight up against the rules. You're probably already being reported to a mod over it.
Once again: You are taking things too literally and too seriously. Chill out, and accept that the game is not ironclad, because it isn't. It's built to not be ironclad. There is a ton of room for player and GM discretion, which is all in the name of having a good time. Not constraining everything because you seem to have an extremely strict view of the rules.
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If we don't call spades spades, then we'll slowly be inundated with liars and idiots, won't we?
You know, in a hypothetical alternate universe where Haru was actually a liar or an idiot, I'd be more or less okay with him being called that. But we don't live in that universe. And even if we did, it wouldn't be my opinion that mattered (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.0.html).
So you're clearly out of line here. If you have opinions about how the forums should be run, you can tell them to the people who run this place.
As for the actual thread topic...I haven't read White Night in a long long time. So I really can't comment. But I'll reiterate what I said before: if you want to increase spellcasting capacity, go ahead. Just make sure people pay for it, because spellcasting is powerful enough.
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Look Melendwyr, you proposed a potential houserule (house-rule? house rule?), multiple experienced players have agreed that it is not a good idea, explained why, and offered alternatives using existing in-game mechanics that result on the same effect, but do not add more power to an already powerful class of player characters. You can take their advice, or ignore it and use the house rule in your games anyway (as long as the other players in your game agree to it). You don't need anyone's blessing as long as your group agrees to it, but I would take heed of universally given advice as it is usually universally given for a reason. There is no need for name calling or posturing.
Anyway I too agree that spellcasters do not need any buffs. Also, not everything that happens in the novels can be represented by game mechanics.
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If we don't call spades spades, then we'll slowly be inundated with liars and idiots, won't we?
You want to rephrase that in a way that's not being insulting?
Warning One.
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So.. I am one of those people who highly believes in research and fact checking for everything. That being said...
White Night (hardback) pages 339 through 342 (chapter 39). It's kind of a grey area. See, the fight is still going on all around Dresden and his little group, at the beginning of the chapter you even see Murphy doing stuff. Harry, on the other hand, just opens the way to the NeverNever, then talks to Marcone a bit. Did he have time to curl up and take a nap? No. Grab himself a coke and some crackers? No. Stop and catch his breath while the White Court did the heavy lifting for a minute? Absolutely. If I were GMing a battle this intense, I'd totally take that few minutes where they stopped and planned as a scene break, clear stress tracks, and let them go back to work since, during that time, the ghouls were focused on the vamps. No one was actively attacking Harry and several members of his group. They were standing around talking.
Now, this doesn't actually clear up the question... does the houserule as the OP stated it out sound good? To me, not really. Personally... I actually REALLY like the way it happened in White Night.
I'd rather put a minor scene break into a major fight like that, a quick few moments where they can gather their thoughts, catch their breath, and move on. But that's just the way I'd handle it.
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Rather than post a link to my most recent rambling, I'll depart from tradition and repeat myself: JB wasn't writing the books with a game in mind; I'm rather certain he was writing them to tell an interesting story when the fine folks at Evil Hat finally got hold of him with a business proposition...the rest is history and the book is only up to date until Small Favor. Ease up, it's only a game. People more erudite than myself regarding both books and game mechanics have already given the best advice they can (especially given the games admitted gray areas); at the end of the day, it's your table.
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One thing to remember...Jim and Fred go way back. So while Jim wasn't writing with a game in mind, I'm guessing (key word there...please don't assume I know Fred or Jim's mind, I'vemet Fred in person once and see Jim infrequently and fleetingly) Fred runs mechanisms by Jim enough...even pre-DresdenRPG ... that some of that percolates through. And Jim's a gamer in his own right.
I've noticed that gamers tend to devise rules for their fantasy that lend themselves to being able to play them in a tabletop game. Brust. Sanderson.* Jim. This doesn't detract, mind, from the "author wrote it as a story, not a game" argument, but rather augments it. All the solid authors write for the story, not the game potential (RPG-inspired tie ins excepted, of course).
*Hell, Mistborn and Stormlight series have magic rules that scream video RPG, let alone tabletop.
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Rather than post a link to my most recent rambling, I'll depart from tradition and repeat myself: JB wasn't writing the books with a game in mind;
This is a perfectly true point. It is also COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT as an argument in this context. The issue is not whether any game can perfectly emulate whatever Jim Butcher has written or may eventually write.
Since it seems that this needs to be explicitly laid out, the issues here are as follows:
1) The DFRPG rules do not permit certain kinds of dramatic scenes; specifically, extended combats with frequent use of magic, or any situation in which many spells are used in a short period of time.
2) This is undesirable for anyone who might want to use this system for a game in which such scenes are possible.
3) This also means that the rules don't properly represent one aspect of the flavor of their source material.
4) The relative de-emphasis on rigid mechanics in FATE generally, and this game in specifically, does not excuse poor mechanics where they do exist.
5) Trying to force the source material to conform to the limitations of this game's mechanics is inappropriate.
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I'm not sure this is entirely true. Granted, I have not tried to emulate the scene in question but one assumes Harry has a mental stress track of four and likely has at least one extra mild mental consequence.
That is, by my count, a chance to cast eight spells in a single combat. Can we perfectly duplicate that specific combat scene? Maybe not. But there's anecdotal evidence based on the number of people satisfied by the magic system in this thread that the magic rules DO allow for plenty of epic spell fu.
That said, you are free to house rule or adapt different rules to your setting. I am unsure of why this is a trigger issue for you. Go with what is right for YOUR game. If other people don't agree that's no big deal. Gaming, like any art, is subjective and based on individual experience.
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Ok, I feel I have to ask this. What are you hoping to get out of your points? Some kind of secret admission that there are flaws or perhaps some validation that they are true and maybe one of the game designers to jump in and say "Hey, you're right!" ?
You've asked several questions and for input and don't seem particularly pleased (at least by my reading) with a majority of the responses. If the mechanics as written don't work for you, then why play with them? Use Vancian magic or any other magic system or rule set if you think it will work better. We've all run into issues and we've all had to tweak the rules to our personal tastes and play styles. I don't think I've ever seen a true Rules As Written DFRPG game played. I'm sure they exist in the wild and maybe they are here in one of the PbP games I haven't read, but for the most part there is give and take as to what is kosher. We're simply providing you the tweaks that we've made to make some of the mechanics you're asking about work more to our tastes and expectations.
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Ok, I feel I have to ask this. What are you hoping to get out of your points? Some kind of secret admission that there are flaws or perhaps some validation that they are true and maybe one of the game designers to jump in and say "Hey, you're right!" ?
Or maybe, just maybe, I'm looking for ways the flaws might be fixed and opinions on possible solutions. Nah, that's just too crazy.
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Setting aside the question of whether the flaw you're complaining about actually exists...
Like I said, your idea could work. But you'd have to make cuts elsewhere to balance it out. Have you thought about what to cut?
And if you're looking for other suggestions, there's a Power on the wiki that lets you trade Refresh for mental stress boxes at a 1:1 rate.
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There tends to be a large imbalance in the power of magic attacks vs non magic attacks. A spell slingers limited number of shots is one of the big things that "corrects" that balance.
I imagine this is why you are getting so much pushback on the idea of at least doubling their number of spells.
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And you haven't received any replies to your posts with opinions and possible solutions? Every one I've seen have several but I can always go back and double check. We all seem to want the same thing, a fun and rewarding game experience. I'll admit, sometimes the rules get in the way or don't handle what is seen in the books exactly. That's why we house rule. Not all of the house rules are perfect though, but they can get the job done.
I personally created a couple of custom powers that allow for extra oomph when dealing with rote spells. I'll have to see if I can dig them up.
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This is a perfectly true point. It is also COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT as an argument in this context. The issue is not whether any game can perfectly emulate whatever Jim Butcher has written or may eventually write.
Since it seems that this needs to be explicitly laid out, the issues here are as follows:
1) The DFRPG rules do not permit certain kinds of dramatic scenes; specifically, extended combats with frequent use of magic, or any situation in which many spells are used in a short period of time.
Sure they do. As has been pointed out, a lot of the "dramatic" flourishes are represented by flavor, not mechanics. Also, the GM has the right and ability to declare a stress-clearing pause whenever he or she wants.
2) This is undesirable for anyone who might want to use this system for a game in which such scenes are possible.
Or...you can be a little flexible. Just declare that a pause between one set of antagonists and the next is enough for spells to refresh.
4) The relative de-emphasis on rigid mechanics in FATE generally, and this game in specifically, does not excuse poor mechanics where they do exist.
Excuse? I don't see how they're "poor mechanics" in the first place.
5) Trying to force the source material to conform to the limitations of this game's mechanics is inappropriate.
And nobody here is trying to do this, so I don't know what your issue here is.
Or maybe, just maybe, I'm looking for ways the flaws might be fixed and opinions on possible solutions. Nah, that's just too crazy.
And being antagonistic and sarcastic isn't exactly the way to get us to help you out.
Speaking as someone who's been playing with the system for a few years now, the long battle scenes you're describing are, well, too damn long. My players -- even the ones without magic -- tend to consider combat that goes past five or six turns to be extremely long and just dragging on. Especially when there's a lot of players on either side. Even a single turn could take up to an hour when you've got four PCs or more and equal opposition.
A better solution? Treat battles as an abstract, rather than a blow-by-blow. A turn has no definite length -- for a long battle scene (say, Chichen Itza), maybe the first turn is everything from Murphy's first swing to Harry grabbing people to start going up the stairs. Just like you might roll Survival or Endurance to represent long periods spent outdoors, maybe you just roll a spell to represent a long period fighting.
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As Sancta said, it's all about game balance. Refresh cost balances that. So does trimming a power to exclude an ability in favor of another ability.
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Here are a few of the custom powers I played with to not only extend spellcasting but also make it a little more inline with what is seen in the novels.
Rote Mastery [-2]
Your mastery of rote spells is so efficient that you do not tire as easily when casting them.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Lore
Effects:
Mind Over Matter - You gain two additional Mental stress boxes that can only be used for rote stress. These two boxes may be used before using your normal Mental stress boxes and count as 1 and 2 stress respectively.
Arcane Intellect - Your lore is considered two steps higher when determining the number of rote spells you have access to.
Focused Rote [-2]
You are so efficient at your rote spells, you can cast them easier than non-rote spells.
Skills Affected: Discipline, Conviction
Effects:
Efficient Casting - Your Discipline is considered 1 higher when you cast a Rote Spell
Arcane Brilliance - You can cast a Rote Spell defensively by taking one additional stress. Normally, you cannot cast any spell defensively (Enchanted items or Skill checks are used)
Forceful Rote [-2]
Your belief in your rote spells is so great, they hit harder than normal.
Skills Affected: Conviction
Effects:
Rote Domination - Your damaging rotes negate 2 points of armor for a single target or 1 additional point of armor for multiple targets. If there is no armor, there is no additional effect.
Repetition Breeds Confidence - Your conviction is considered 1 higher for Rote Spells.
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Sure they do. As has been pointed out, a lot of the "dramatic" flourishes are represented by flavor, not mechanics.
A combat doesn't need 'flourishes' to be dramatic. The spells used in the White Night battle were described as having effects that are mechanically represented in the DFRPG rules. A force attack that topples a crowd of enemies isn't a dramatic flourish. A shielding that repels an attack isn't a dramatic flourish.
The guidelines for what uses of magic shouldn't count as a spell are really quite clear... and they emphasize that if magical effects that aren't spells in a mechanical sense change important aspects of the scenario that expenditure of a Fate Point might be necessary to effectively 'declare' a changed aspect.
Also, the GM has the right and ability to declare a stress-clearing pause whenever he or she wants.
It's a game of make-believe, we can technically do whatever we want, whenever we want to. That does not excuse problems with the rules we use to give structure and meaning to our make-believe.
Most major battle scenes are not going to permit characters to rest and catch their breath and 'compose themselves'. In the exceptions, the characters ought to have taken cover or be protected by others. This principle already operates with FPs and sessions - characters don't regain refresh if a particular scene ends up stretching across sessions if the GM decides it's like a two-part TV episode. This situation is a great deal like that - if there's no pause in the action for a character, they don't get to clear their stress!
Do you really think my players - or most people playing the game - aren't going to have serious issues with the GM if the people and monsters they're challenging suddenly revitalize and lose all their stress mid-combat, just because the GM decided to arbitrarily declare a rest break? It's not good storytelling and it's not good game play.
A refresh being declared during a break in active hostilities? Like the time between Harry defeating Arianna and mass combat breaking out in Changes? That makes total sense. But not every battle is going to be like that. The rules as they exist now don't permit that.
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As Sancta said, it's all about game balance. Refresh cost balances that. So does trimming a power to exclude an ability in favor of another ability.
I do find it ironic that it's essentially impossible to recreate Harry Dresden as a character in the RPG without him becoming an NPC. He simply couldn't gain experience quickly enough to pay the costs proposed for all of the abilities he has in-canon.
Thank you for your list rote-related powers, I find them quite interesting. They certainly disturb the current balance less than my proposed change would.
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Or maybe, just maybe, I'm looking for ways the flaws might be fixed and opinions on possible solutions. Nah, that's just too crazy.
In all the threads you've started, you asked a question and then told people who answered you that they were playing the game wrong. All those people have been playing a long time, and have solved various problems with their methods, including the one you are asking questions about. It's fine if you just don't like the game, and it's fine if you don't like the solutions that people propose. I don't like a lot of the solutions to any given problem either, so I use my own. That's how Fate works, anything that happens can be done in a number of ways, depending on the preferences of the players involved. That doesn't make any of those ways right or wrong. I would appreciate if you could keep that in mind when talking to people around here.
Fate doesn't try to simulate reality (or even a dresdenverse version of reality), it emulates narrative structures. It can be used to simulate things to a degree, but there are a lot of other systems that do that better, and you are always going to run into problems if you try to play it like that. Even more so, if you don't expect to run into those problems. It took me a while to get this, as well, and it's especially tough when coming from other, more traditional games.
Let's start with stress. Stress is not equal to hitpoints or health or however other games that have mechanics similar to this call it. Neither is mental stress equal to mana. In Fate, stress is used as a pacing mechanism. It takes a while to burn through someone's stress track, so it will make a conflict last longer. If a conflict is not interesting to me, I could resolve it as a single roll, the player and I both roll the fists skill for the characters involved, and the higher roll wins the entire conflict. But since the game is about action, I usually want my fights to last a bit longer, so I choose to use a mechanic that will last longer. The conflict is that mechanic.
But I might want to have something that lasts even longer. That's when I can simply reset the stress and treat what happens next as a new scene. Imagine a tv series with a big fight scene. Lots of action, people get hit, thrown against the wall, they hurt pretty bad. Then there's a moment of high suspension and suddenly, there's a commercial break.
And that's where the stress reset can set in. There doesn't have to be a reason like "the characters have a few minutes to catch their breath" or anything. It's a way to structure your narrative, and if you want the fight to keep going, just when it reaches its peak, go for it. Of course it should count for everyone, players and NPCs alike.
There's also another way to go here, and that's sub-goals. An important part of setting up a conflict is to set up a goal for each side, and they should be somewhat opposite. Most often, the goal is simply "kill the opposition", which is fine, but it isn't always the best choice. And sometimes, it might not even be a choice at all. Instead, and especially if you want to prolong your final fight scene, you can set up sub-goals. You basically need to take out your opponent a few times in a row, each time something happens. Maybe they lose an arm, their mythical weapon, the amulet that makes them immune to magic, whatever you've got. Once such a taken out has occurred, everything is reset, and the next conflict begins.
But again, the mechanical conflict only. It could be that you are literally mid karate chop when this happens, but that doesn't matter, there's been a break in the narrative, something has dramatically changed, that warrants a change of pace.
Next, plot devices. Let's go back to the situation where Harry opens a portal in the deeps to let Marcone in. I would handle this one of two ways:
1) The plan was hatched on-screen. The players anticipated that the deeps would be full of armed thugs, so they found a way to counter it, ask Marcone and his goons for help. The negotiation with Marcone was played out in full, and the situation was planned so that sometime in the deeps, Harry could simply "activate" Marcone to neutralize the thugs that would otherwise outnumber them. It was agreed upon that this would simply happen, there was no need for a spell or anything, it was just a plot device. When Harry's player said "now", Harry would open the portal and Marcone was there to the rescue. Harry would cast a spell to open the portal, obviously, but it was already decided that this would happen, so there was no need in rolling anything. The spell was just the plot device to get Marcone there, it was not a spell that Harry had to roll to control or anything like that. It was decided that this would be a cool thing to happen, so it happened.
2) In the middle of the deeps, Harry's player realizes that he is heavily outnumbered. He comes up with the idea that he could have gone to Marcone and asked him to lend him some of his goons. He didn't do that before going into the deeps, but the player hands the GM a Fate point and they agree that Harry has done that, and now they are waiting on the other side, ready to strike. Opening the portal is part of spending the Fate point, again there's no need to roll, it happens, because the player paid for it. It's a plot device, something that just happens, because the plot demands it to. You may think this is arbitrary, and to a degree you are right, but it is still under the scrutiny of the table, and if everything agrees that this is something cool that could happen, why stand in the way?
And if you ask other players, I'm sure they will find a few dozen other ways you could do this. Now obviously, you could ask Harry's player to roll to open the way, but I would advise against it. If you have something cool like this in the barrel, you'd sort of be shooting yourself in the foot, if you force a roll on it, since the roll can fail and you stand there with nothing. You can always go for a compel, if you want to twist things. Which is also something that happens there. Harry's plan was to escape through the portal with the rest. But he had probably spent all his Fate points already, and the GM grinned, held up a Fate point and said "Wouldn't it be a shame, if you were under a psychic attack and missed the closing portal by this much?" He can only accept and find another way out, which he did with Lara and the kiss-shield, probably also powered by the same Fate point he just got.
Speaking off, I had a plot device spell like that happen in my own game, and it's pretty much my favorite scene ever. The players were fighting the resurrection of the red king and had failed, he was standing in front of them. The Warden of the group (played by bobjob) charged him, set off his death curse while tapping into summer magic and exploded into a nova of pure sunshine, burning the red king and any red court vampire around to ashes.
Now I could have calculated how many shifts of power that would have been, and if it would have been enough to take out the red king, or if he survives, etc. But I ask you, why would I rob me and my players from an amazing ending like that? It worked, without asking, it worked. Sometimes, the rule of cool just trumps everything, at least in my opinion.
The difference between narrative and simulative is really where I'm coming from the entire time. A simulative approach means you will have to put everything that happens into rules and numbers. And that's well and good, but it's important you know that's what you are doing or that's what you are expecting from a game. The narrative approach on the other hand tries to be light on rules and only uses rules to form the narrative.
For example, when Harry goes into a dark room, he has two option: he can either switch on the light, or he can call forth light from his amulet. Now I'm not talking general, I'm talking this specific example. Since Harry is a wizard, it's kind of cool to have him use his magic to make light. The simulative approach would now say that since it is a spell, Harry would need to roll for it and take stress. The narrative approach would say that there is effectively no difference between switching on the light and magical light, both light up the room so Harry can see where he is and what's there. No need to roll for one, so there's no need to roll for the other, it's just this characters flavor. This flavor magic is actually in the book (YS259 - Mundane Effects)
Murphy might have brought a flashlight, which would be her style.
It's kind of like when you expect to drink coke and get sprite instead, it will simply taste wrong. If you drink the same sprite, expecting it to be sprite, it'll taste completely different.
And this is kind of why the rules seem so vague. It's because they are. But that's intended, because it's up to each group to figure out how they want to deal with things. The book gives a lot of examples and a lot of advice on how to do so, but ultimately, it leaves a lot of wiggle room for people to find their sweet spot. I can totally understand that this might not be to your liking, but maybe if you look at it from another angle, you might at least understand the intentions behind the rules. Then you can decide if this is the game for you, or if you might be better off with a game that better matches your style of playing.
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A combat doesn't need 'flourishes' to be dramatic. The spells used in the White Night battle were described as having effects that are mechanically represented in the DFRPG rules. A force attack that topples a crowd of enemies isn't a dramatic flourish. A shielding that repels an attack isn't a dramatic flourish.
You misunderstand me. What I mean is along the lines of, "Harry throwing out a dozen blasts of magic trying to hit Arianna doesn't have to be a dozen different spells."
It's a game of make-believe, we can technically do whatever we want, whenever we want to. That does not excuse problems with the rules we use to give structure and meaning to our make-believe.
Most major battle scenes are not going to permit characters to rest and catch their breath and 'compose themselves'. In the exceptions, the characters ought to have taken cover or be protected by others. This principle already operates with FPs and sessions - characters don't regain refresh if a particular scene ends up stretching across sessions if the GM decides it's like a two-part TV episode. This situation is a great deal like that - if there's no pause in the action for a character, they don't get to clear their stress!
Sure there can be. I really don't see why you're so stuck on this arbitrarily strict reading of the rules.
Check YS20. Nowhere does it say that the GM can only do a refresh when there's sufficient amount of downtime. It says on YS21:
By the same token, if the GM
feels that a substantial (i.e., dramatically appropriate)
amount of downtime and rest occurs in
play, the GM may allow a refresh to occur midsession.
Please show me where in the rulebook it says that the GM absolutely cannot clear stress tracks until there has been a specific amount of time of actual, in-game rest for everyone involved.
Then it talks about moving large and significant swaths of time quickly, just like I'm suggesting for the long-term battle (I note you didn't actually respond to that, choosing only to attack my other suggestions) on YS315:
The relationship between story time and
game time is not consistent or clear-cut—large
swaths of story time might go by simply by
narrating that it passes
All I can find about reducing stress is it happens at the end of a scene. And, as I pointed out, the game's own writers have said that declaring a mid-scene break to clear stress tracks is exactly how they would adjudicate the scenes you're worried about.
Do you really think my players - or most people playing the game - aren't going to have serious issues with the GM if the people and monsters they're challenging suddenly revitalize and lose all their stress mid-combat, just because the GM decided to arbitrarily declare a rest break? It's not good storytelling and it's not good game play.
Sure they'd have serious issues with that. Good thing that's not actually what I'm suggesting.
I'm suggesting that the players get a scene break that clears refresh when they have an appropriate break in the fight -- going to a new set of opponents, new set of circumstances, whatever.
Yes, I think they're not going to have a problem with it. It not being good storytelling or good game play is your own opinion. I've never had or seen anyone have a problem with getting their stress track cleared.
A refresh being declared during a break in active hostilities? Like the time between Harry defeating Arianna and mass combat breaking out in Changes? That makes total sense. But not every battle is going to be like that. The rules as they exist now don't permit that.
They do. We've tried to point this out repeatedly, you've chosen instead to reject what we say and attack our own opinions and experience.
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Ah, found it. Here's what the rulebook says about clearing stress:
YS220
Any stress that your character takes during
a conflict goes away immediately after the
conflict—stress represents the close scrapes and
glancing blows that your character can shrug off,
so it doesn’t last after the end of that conflict
scene. In rare instances, it might be appropriate
for stress to remain if your character goes immediately
from one conflict to another or to some
other appropriate scene (like a fight that turns
into a car chase), but for the most part, once the
conflict is done, the stress is gone.
Notice how it says it might be appropriate to keep stress from one scene to another. As in, the thing you are treating as an ironclad, absolutely necessary and completely unassailable rule is, according to the rulebook, completely optional.
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Please show me where in the rulebook it says that the GM absolutely cannot clear stress tracks until there has been a specific amount of time of actual, in-game rest for everyone involved.
I've never suggested a 'specific' amount of time. But it has to make thematic sense. Within a single 'episode' or 'session' there can be long breaks where the story as told and the time within the story don't have to match. And within a single encounter, there can be breaks or rests that would permit stress to be cleared - if it actually makes sense that the characters would recuperate a bit in those circumstances.
Those sorts of circumstances would be uncommon in conflicts. And most of the conflicts within the novels do not have such pauses - which makes them more realistic and believable. I am not going to arbitrarily declare intermissions within extended conflicts if it doesn't make sense, no matter how much I might like stress to be purged.
I'm suggesting that the players get a scene break that clears refresh when they have an appropriate break in the fight -- going to a new set of opponents, new set of circumstances, whatever.
That's better than suggesting they should get one when there's a chapter break... but not by much.
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Notice how it says it might be appropriate to keep stress from one scene to another.
The conflicts I'm talking about are a single scene. The canonical conflict I analyzed was likewise a single scene. The conflict was not over until it was over. The White Court Vampire trying to kill Dresden was not actually defeated until the caverns blew up. His escalating the conflict from a personal duel to a super-ghoul mass warfare killing field didn't produce a new scene any more than Harry deciding to stop throwing punches and start throwing fireballs would.
You can't just declare a new scene because you've decided you don't want to have stress.
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The rulebook says stress is wiped at the end of a conflict -- you're confusing conflict in the general sense with the conflict in the game's specific sense. According to the game's rules, a conflict is a battle. The first conflict in that scene was Ramirez and Dresden vs. Madrigal and Vitto. They kill Madrigal, and Vitto calls in the ghouls. That's the end of that conflict, and the start of a new one as Harry brings in his own reinforcements.
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"This is a perfectly true point. It is also COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT as an argument in this context. "
"Or maybe, just maybe, I'm looking for ways the flaws might be fixed and opinions on possible solutions. Nah, that's just too crazy."
Do we need to host a seminar of what is and is not appropriate on these forums?
Hint: You've replied to many posts, and most of the replies were well written. The above two are inappropriate to the forum.
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I do find it ironic that it's essentially impossible to recreate Harry Dresden as a character in the RPG without him becoming an NPC. He simply couldn't gain experience quickly enough to pay the costs proposed for all of the abilities he has in-canon
Sure he could. There's an advancement track for him in the books, IIRC, and Deadmanwalking posted his own take on the Resources board.
Anyway, we've gone off-topic again. Regarding the proposed houserule, I ask again: what do you intend to cut to make up for the increased power of Wizards under that rule?
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I do find it ironic that it's essentially impossible to recreate Harry Dresden as a character in the RPG without him becoming an NPC. He simply couldn't gain experience quickly enough to pay the costs proposed for all of the abilities he has in-canon.
O.o No. I stat him up as more potent relative to everyone else's estimations, and it's fairly easy to give him Refresh enough to play with up until the Clusterfuck Trilogy (Changes-Cold Days). But those guys are basically their own major milestone boxes of chocolate. By Skin Game, he's definitely positive refresh.
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The rulebook says stress is wiped at the end of a conflict -- you're confusing conflict in the general sense with the conflict in the game's specific sense. According to the game's rules, a conflict is a battle. The first conflict in that scene was Ramirez and Dresden vs. Madrigal and Vitto. They kill Madrigal, and Vitto calls in the ghouls. That's the end of that conflict
No, it's a continuation of the same conflict with different weapons. Same battle, higher stakes.
There is no discontinuity in physical location - the entire encounter takes place in the cavern chamber.
There is no discontinuity in temporality - the entire encounter is continuous, without pauses, breaks, or interruptions, and the entities involved have to stay on their toes the entire time.
There is no discontinuity in the fundamental nature of the dangers and threats - I'd be willing to let a fistfight that turns into a car chase with gunfire count as two separate conflicts because the nature of the threats, and therefore the abstract 'stress', is so different between the two. But that's not what we have here.
And, of course, the conflict that was initiated was a duel to the death between two Wardens and two WCVs. The stakes are raised, but the basic conflict does not end until both vampires are dead - which does not occur until the caverns are blown.
If there were a single real example of a break, I'd let it suffice for a rest. Say, something along the lines of that scene from The Phantom Menace where rotating force walls temporarily keep the combatants apart, and the bad guy paces while the good guy gets some meditation in. That would count. There was absolutely nothing like that. Everyone is constantly in danger until they escape the killing field.
Which is precisely why Harry does that kiss with Lara to generate the force bubble that saves them both. He was on his very last legs at the very end of the battle and needed something, anything, that he could feed into the spell to power it. If he'd somehow cleared all his stress, mental and physical, he'd have been fresh as a daisy and wouldn't have needed to interact with a soul-sucking succubus to survive.
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Which is precisely why Harry does that kiss with Lara to generate the force bubble that saves them both. He was on his very last legs at the very end of the battle and needed something, anything, that he could feed into the spell to power it. If he'd somehow cleared all his stress, mental and physical, he'd have been fresh as a daisy and wouldn't have needed to interact with a soul-sucking succubus to survive.
Slightly off topic, I was curious just how "Harry the PC" pulled that off. Did he let Lara place a maneuver on him with her powers and tag it, did she hit him with a consequence that he tagged himself? I could also see him placing a Lore Maneuver on himself with his exposition about emotions and magic. Oh well. Back to our regularly scheduled program.
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No, it's a continuation of the same conflict with different weapons. Same battle, higher stakes.
Not really. That's only your extremely strict interpretation, not the only way to read the scene. Can you please accept that yours is not the only way to read a scene?
There is no discontinuity in physical location - the entire encounter takes place in the cavern chamber.
Please quote where the book says this is necessary to erase stress.
There is no discontinuity in temporality - the entire encounter is continuous, without pauses, breaks, or interruptions, and the entities involved have to stay on their toes the entire time.
Please quote where the book says this is necessary to erase stress.
And, come to think of it, this isn't true. After the Einherjar Squad's opening salvo, Harry outright says that they've created a quiet pocket, and he has at least a minute or two to talk to everyone, catch his breath, and strategize with Marcone about getting Lara's people out.
There is no discontinuity in the fundamental nature of the dangers and threats - I'd be willing to let a fistfight that turns into a car chase with gunfire count as two separate conflicts because the nature of the threats, and therefore the abstract 'stress', is so different between the two. But that's not what we have here.
Yes, there is. Read the passage again. Between the end of the duel and the mental attack, at no point is Harry or Ramirez in direct conflict with Vittorio. There is a whole chapter or two where Vitto is, from the perspective of the gameplay, a non-entity.
So we have one conflict -- Harry and Ramirez vs. Vittorio and Madrigal. That conflict ends, Madrigal is taken out, while Vittorio makes a Concession (he's out of the immediate conflict with a loss, but changes the terms).
Then we have a second conflict, which is Harry, Ramirez, Murphy, Marcone, Hendricks, and the Einherjar Dream Team vs. Uber Ghouls. Vittorio is a background detail in this conflict, and not a participant from the immediate perspective of Harry et al.
And, of course, the conflict that was initiated was a duel to the death between two Wardens and two WCVs. The stakes are raised, but the basic conflict does not end until both vampires are dead - which does not occur until the caverns are blown.
By your own personal reading of the scene, and by a definition of conflict that is not the game books' definition of conflict.
If there were a single real example of a break, I'd let it suffice for a rest. Say, something along the lines of that scene from The Phantom Menace where rotating force walls temporarily keep the combatants apart, and the bad guy paces while the good guy gets some meditation in. That would count. There was absolutely nothing like that. Everyone is constantly in danger until they escape the killing field.
The book does not have this requirement.
Which is precisely why Harry does that kiss with Lara to generate the force bubble that saves them both. He was on his very last legs at the very end of the battle and needed something, anything, that he could feed into the spell to power it. If he'd somehow cleared all his stress, mental and physical, he'd have been fresh as a daisy and wouldn't have needed to interact with a soul-sucking succubus to survive.
That's one possibility. The other possibility is that the GM set the difficulty of surviving it so high that Harry wasn't sure he could survive it on what he had left. He still has consequences, mental and physical. I've had players create declarations and bank aspects before they'd ever cast a single spell, as insurance.
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My vote is for a self-directed Lore maneuver, possibly combined with a FP declaration that let the player justify channeling a great deal of energy without picking up more stress. Probably the GM would have set a low threshold on the roll because the whole thing is so cool; also, the pre-established properties of the caverns (that the walls were everywhere smoothed and without obstructions) were probably invoked heavily. Sort of a Chekhov's Gun, only the gun was introduced without a plan and its purpose was spontaneously created much later. (Sometimes it's good to leave dangling story hooks lying around.) It's fortunate that they were so close to the story's end, with lots of time before the next began, because Harry probably picked up some serious consequences and burned through his entire reservoir of FPs.
See, this is why I like this system: the people who made it clearly put a great deal of thought into reproducing the narrative reasoning behind the events in the Dresden Files novels. The fact that it's possible to find multiple ways to describe that event is immensely impressive. The general quality of the rules makes me want to find solutions for the few places the rules don't and can't reproduce the narrative very much.
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So we have one conflict -- Harry and Ramirez vs. Vittorio and Madrigal. That conflict ends, Madrigal is taken out, while Vittorio makes a Concession (he's out of the immediate conflict with a loss, but changes the terms).
Then we have a second conflict, which is Harry, Ramirez, Murphy, Marcone, Hendricks, and the Einherjar Dream Team vs. Uber Ghouls. Vittorio is a background detail in this conflict, and not a participant from the immediate perspective of Harry et al.
By your own personal reading of the scene, and by a definition of conflict that is not the game books' definition of conflict.
The book does not have this requirement.
That's one possibility. The other possibility is that the GM set the difficulty of surviving it so high that Harry wasn't sure he could survive it on what he had left. He still has consequences, mental and physical. I've had players create declarations and bank aspects before they'd ever cast a single spell, as insurance.
I agree with this interpretation of scene changes. I've had similar issues with the stress limitation on magic in the game, and analyzed the duel scene strongly to come to grips with it. The scene breaks (and these forums) were integral to my understanding.
Arguably (IIRC), there may have been a brief social conflict between Dresden and Marcone at the gate, where Dresden convinces him to extract the key vamps.
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The rules discussion of 'Concessions' includes the following:
A concession has to pass muster with the group before it is accepted—the conditions of the loss still have to represent a clear and decisive disadvantage for your character. If the group (note that your opponent is part of the group for this!) feels like your character is getting off easy, you’ll need to rework the concession until it’s acceptable.
Escaping a duel-to-the-death would obviously incur some serious social penalties - such as becoming an exile that would be slain on sight. But a 'concession' that involves putting your opponents in massively-increased danger? The superghoul intervention would have killed off the entities that escaping the duel would incur penalties with. Sure, it would probably mean a major debt with Cowl, but it in no way constitutes a 'win' for Team Dresden, even if those players accepted it on the terms of some of their enemies being guaranteed to die as a result.
I can't imagine the people I game with being willing to propose such a concession, much less accepting it.
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The rules discussion of 'Concessions' includes the following:
Escaping a duel-to-the-death would obviously incur some serious social penalties - such as becoming an exile that would be slain on sight. But a 'concession' that involves putting your opponents in massively-increased danger? The superghoul intervention would have killed off the entities that escaping the duel would incur penalties with. Sure, it would probably mean a major debt with Cowl, but it in no way constitutes a 'win' for Team Dresden, even if those players accepted it on the terms of some of their enemies being guaranteed to die as a result.
I can't imagine the people I game with being willing to propose such a concession, much less accepting it.
It constitutes a Win in the sense that Harry and Ramirez won the duel, therefore Harry can later make his weregild terms with Lara, and in the eyes of the White Court in specific and the supernatural world in general, Harry and Ramirez were in the right. It also forces Vittorio's hand into taking the last few veils off the plot and showing the Black Council is behind it.
All of that is extremely important, regardless of the actions Vittorio takes next.
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There is no discontinuity in temporality - the entire encounter is continuous, without pauses, breaks, or interruptions, and the entities involved have to stay on their toes the entire time.
If there were a single real example of a break, I'd let it suffice for a rest. Say, something along the lines of that scene from The Phantom Menace where rotating force walls temporarily keep the combatants apart, and the bad guy paces while the good guy gets some meditation in. That would count. There was absolutely nothing like that. Everyone is constantly in danger until they escape the killing field.
Actually, as I attempted to point out earlier, there's actually several pages in chapter 39 where it's basically White Court vs Ghouls during which Harry and Marcone talk, Thomas refuses to leave without Justine, Harry has to make the decision to try to get everyone out, convince Marcone that saving people is more important than saving his own hide.... and no one is taking shots at Harry. They're busy with other things... there's time enough for Harry to catch his breath, collect his thoughts, that sort of thing.
In this case, the White Court is your Force Walls.
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So where's the bit where Harry sits down and meditates? There's a bit where he tries to beat a ghoul to death with his gun, bits where he's walking through the battle lines getting people out...
I shook my head and made sure my duster was still covering most of me. "Malvora is still out there. he might try to kill our gate, or try some other spell. I've got to be one of the last ones through."
Murphy gave me a skeptical look. "You look like you're about to fall over. You in any shape to do more magic?"
Yeah, that seems to be very restful.
It seems pretty clear that nothing we say, or reference, or quote, is going to change your assertion that Harry Dresden got a rest period in the middle of the White Night battle. I don't think there's anything else to be said.
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That battle is the textbook example of mid-battle break within the DF novels.
Whichever way you bend it, there is a narrative break in combat at that point.
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So where's the bit where Harry sits down and meditates? There's a bit where he tries to beat a ghoul to death with his gun, bits where he's walking through the battle lines getting people out...
Yeah, that seems to be very restful.
It seems pretty clear that nothing we say, or reference, or quote, is going to change your assertion that Harry Dresden got a rest period in the middle of the White Night battle. I don't think there's anything else to be said.
One thing needs to be said: That quote you picked happens well after the point where we're all saying the the break happened. Even though Jreafman clearly said where to find it (Chapter 39), you grabbed a quote from a whole chapter after that.
The part we're actually talking about:
Murphy stopped shooting and screamed something at me, but it
wasn't until Marcone stepped forward into the peripheral vision of
the armed gunmen and held up a hand with a closed fist that they
stopped firing.
For a second, nothing but a high, heavy tone buzzed in my ears,
making me deaf to the other sounds in the cavern. The air was full
of the sewer stench of wounded ghoul and the sharp scent of
burning cordite. A swath of stone floor ten yards across and thirty
deep had just been carpeted in pureed ghoul.
The fight was still going on all around us, but the main force of
ghouls was concentrating on the hard-pressed vampires. We'd
bought ourselves a temporary quiet spot, but it couldn't last.
Harry spends the entire rest of that chapter pointedly not fighting for his life. He has time for a quiet moment with Marcone where he convinces him to help him get the other Raiths out.
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"So where's the bit where Harry sits down and meditates? "
Strangely, there is a series of stories regarding yoga and murder mysteries. The Matt Bolster series.
I am not making this up.
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I am not making this up.
That's exactly what someone who was making that up would say...
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One thing needs to be said: That quote you picked happens well after the point where we're all saying the the break happened. Even though Jreafman clearly said where to find it (Chapter 39), you grabbed a quote from a whole chapter after that.
The part we're actually talking about:
Harry spends the entire rest of that chapter pointedly not fighting for his life. He has time for a quiet moment with Marcone where he convinces him to help him get the other Raiths out.
Mr. Death... You're my Hero. :P I was on my way out the door and didn't have time to look it up again and type out the relevant bits, thanks for grabbing that for me. :)
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Yeah. The way I read that scene is physical and mental stress boxes clear while they start a social conflict. No recovery on consequences occurs (unless you have some kind of magical recovery power, which Carlos and Harry did not) because no medicine/shoulder to cry on stuff happens, and if you take social consequences they affect the upcoming battle scene so you've got to be a bit careful in the scene where the PC's want to convince Marcone (and others) to rescue the folks they care about.
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I read that as starting a conflict within a greater, unresolved conflict. Harry is still in personal danger, and now his friends and allies are as well. Starting a new conflict shouldn't in itself grant stress clearance.
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I read that as starting a conflict within a greater, unresolved conflict. Harry is still in personal danger, and now his friends and allies are as well. Starting a new conflict shouldn't in itself grant stress clearance.
Hm. We should examine this closer.
I read that as starting a conflict within a greater, unresolved conflict. Harry is still in personal danger, and now his friends and allies are as well. Starting a new conflict shouldn't in itself grant stress clearance.
One more time.
I read that
Yes. You read that. You did. The point we've been trying to make is that there are multiple ways to read a scene. I read it (along with most people who are on here) as a track clearing break. You read it differently. We don't agree with you, but that doesn't make our argument less valid. Or yours, for that matter.
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I read that as starting a conflict within a greater, unresolved conflict.
The duel is over. The duel was the conflict, and now it's over.
Your definition of "conflict" is not the definition of conflict the book uses to delineate the structure of a scene.
Please explain why your definition of conflict trumps the book's gameplay term.
Also, please explain why Harry is able to recover stress between the beginning and end of every book; because the start of a book creates a conflict only resolved at the end, therefore every fight scene inside the book is just another conflict within the greater, unresolved conflict.
Harry is still in personal danger, and now his friends and allies are as well.
Well, no. He clearly states that he is in a quiet spot, and there are several minutes where he is in no danger at all. If he was still in personal danger, he couldn't have that quiet chat with Marcone.
Starting a new conflict shouldn't in itself grant stress clearance.
Right, ending a conflict does. Which they did. Vittorio is a non-entity at that point, and doesn't become involved again until the very end of the scene. The duel was the game's conflict; and that conflict ended. There was a several minute pause there for Dresden to collect himself.
The text outright says he has a rest period, there is a clear case of two separate conflicts happening, with separate opponents, and he has at the least two or three minutes to collect himself and talk to people. We have demonstrated that the rest period you declared was an absolute necessity actually did happen.
I have to question at this point whether you are arguing in good faith. You seem to reject any evidence that doesn't back-up your own version or support the need for your supposed fix. Several experienced players have asked you what the cost of the fix would be, or otherwise pointed out flaws, and you don't answer their questions or respond to what they've said.
I'm also curious why you picked a quote from Chapter 40 to try and refute our assertion about the rest period, even though it was clearly pointed out as being in Chapter 39. The tone with which you presented the quote was, frankly, smug and sarcastic, which to me suggests that you thought your quote was ironclad proof. So did you think we would simply accept your quote as proof without checking the book ourselves? Or did you just not check the event we were referencing and gave a chapter reference for?
At this point, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that you don't want our opinions or suggestions so much as you want someone to agree with you. If that was going to happen, it would have by now -- so my suggestion to you is stop and consider that you might well be mistaken here.
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May I suggest you try your house-rule as stated, with your group, and then let us know how it worked out. You may or may not want to take Sanctaphrax's advice to balance the added bonus to evocation.
Edit: I'm curious, actually, because that rule would influence how I selected my rotes - I would make my rotes in such a way that I would never take casting stress. I generally don't take attack evocations as rotes, but I would if I knew it was free. In fact I'd make at least 2 of my rotes attack rotes so that I could get off multiple attacks in a combat.
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Yes. You read that. You did. The point we've been trying to make is that there are multiple ways to read a scene.
There are always multiple ways to do anything. There aren't always multiple correct ways to do something. Given that there is no rigorous definition of what a scene is or is not in DFRPG, we have to go by general usage and common sense. And by those standards, it's all part of one long, multi-chapter scene.
The summoning of Cowl and the ultra-ghouls doesn't make anyone safe who was in danger before. It puts everyone who was in danger in even more, and pretty much everyone who wasn't at risk before now is. And if Harry hadn't been able to counter the gambit, it would have rendered the social consequences of violating the duel's terms null and void. It doesn't matter if Vitto becomes an outcast, or exposes Outsider involvement, if the entire White Court gathered in the caverns is slaughtered. If all the witnesses are dead, it doesn't matter what they saw. Cowl and allies could then dominate the surviving WCVs without having to worry about resistance.
It's definitely not a concession. You don't 'concede' a fistfight by pulling a gun and trying to shoot your opponent with it. It's an escalation.
We don't even need to focus on this particular battle. I picked it because it was a relatively early example of the game rules not matching the novel material. There are plenty of later examples where what Harry can do clearly violates the limits placed on game characters. And you can't even explain the events by attributing things to 'Sponsored Magic' with Winter, because Harry resists almost every case of the mantle's impulses towards violence and destruction. He'd be building up a massive debt that he soon wouldn't be able to pay off.
Just acknowledge the elephant in the room, guys. The game rules don't reflect the canonical increases of a wizard's abilities with skill. Increasing the numerical bonuses on casting, but not increasing the amount of casting that can be done, eventually leads to a break between the setting and the rules.
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There are always multiple ways to do anything. There aren't always multiple correct ways to do something. Given that there is no rigorous definition of what a scene is or is not in DFRPG, we have to go by general usage and common sense. And by those standards, it's all part of one long, multi-chapter scene.
Let's talk about that a bit.
Nearly everyone in this thread is saying there's a break in the conflict. You are the only one insisting there isn't. If a whole bunch of people agree on something, and one person disagrees, which group is the one using general usage and common sense?
The summoning of Cowl and the ultra-ghouls doesn't make anyone safe who was in danger before. It puts everyone who was in danger in even more, and pretty much everyone who wasn't at risk before now is.
It doesn't make anyone safer. Nobody's saying it has. What makes them safer is the Einherjar showing up and creating the quiet spot that Harry directly and explicitly references.
And if Harry hadn't been able to counter the gambit, it would have rendered the social consequences of violating the duel's terms null and void. It doesn't matter if Vitto becomes an outcast, or exposes Outsider involvement, if the entire White Court gathered in the caverns is slaughtered. If all the witnesses are dead, it doesn't matter what they saw. Cowl and allies could then dominate the surviving WCVs without having to worry about resistance.
And this largely isn't relevant. Vitto has to escalate his plan and show his cards in a way he hadn't intended. It doesn't matter what would have happened if he'd succeeded because, frankly, most games aren't going to let him succeed. This is Harry Dresden's story, it's the PCs story, and the GM is, generally speaking, going to give them a challenge that they are capable of solving.
It's definitely not a concession. You don't 'concede' a fistfight by pulling a gun and trying to shoot your opponent with it. It's an escalation.
It's a concession because it allows Harry to bring in his back-up. It's a concession because the duel's over, Vittorio lost, and he's losing on his terms.
You are thinking of it only in terms of the physical contest, and that simply isn't the case here.
But the larger point is, at that point, Vittorio is no longer a participant. By making that move, he removes himself from the ensuing fight scene. If nothing else, the fact that Harry and Ramirez's initial opponents are no longer involved marks an end to the conflict scene.
And then Harry has a distinct, noted, and explicit five minute break.
We don't even need to focus on this particular battle. I picked it because it was a relatively early example of the game rules not matching the novel material. There are plenty of later examples where what Harry can do clearly violates the limits placed on game characters. And you can't even explain the events by attributing things to 'Sponsored Magic' with Winter, because Harry resists almost every case of the mantle's impulses towards violence and destruction. He'd be building up a massive debt that he soon wouldn't be able to pay off.
It's only an example of that after you've dismissed every attempt to explain that he does, in fact, get a break in the action, glossing it over with, "Well, I don't think he does."
Him resisting doesn't mean the influence isn't there. He is accruing debt, and he's paying it off as it comes.
Just acknowledge the elephant in the room, guys. The game rules don't reflect the canonical increases of a wizard's abilities with skill. Increasing the numerical bonuses on casting, but not increasing the amount of casting that can be done, eventually leads to a break between the setting and the rules.
We've given you several reasons why the rules work, and how they can work in the context of the novels. You've ignored and dismissed them.
Nobody's trying to hide anything here. Please stop acting like you're exposing some awful truth we're not acknowledging.
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You know I think the house-rule would work. Since Melendwyr's interpretation of a 'conflict' is clearly longer than most people's, those extra spells won't get used nearly as much.
You could have multiple scenes and conflicts running without clearing stress so you'd get less mileage out of them.
I personally, let people refresh their stress tracks a bit more often than what he suggests as, it seems, do most but that's just a matter of preference.
I ran a fight in a building that went on for a long time as they fought their way to the basement. They fought multiple enemies pretty much non-stop. There was a few 'quiet moments' but they were never truly out of danger. There were enemies in other rooms and the PC's had to be careful all the time.
I think I let them refresh their stress tracks 2 or 3 times because I saw the battle as having certain milestones: you breach the first room; you make it into the inner sanctum; you make it into the basement; you fight the BB. Melendwyr would see that as a single conflict. It was a series of large combats/conflicts in a Massive Fight.
No elephants. Just different interpretations.
If you want to actually talk about your house-rule, Melendwyr, you might want to acknowledge some of the advice that were directed specifically at that question:
Could work. You'd have to raise the Refresh cost of Evocation or drop some bonuses from it to compensate, though
I also suggested ways your house-rule could be abused.
Otherwise, people are going to realize you're arguing for arguments sake and stop trying to help...which, I imagine, has already occurred with a few people.
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I have noted your ideas about how the proposed changes could be abused or lead to unintended consequences. I think I may run with the suggestion of creating stunts or low-level supernatural powers (with refresh costs) that extend spellcasting capability - sort of an extension to Refinement, perhaps.
In the context of the entire series, it's clear that as wizards gain in skill, they learn how to get more out of less - specifically, they make their magical energy 'go farther' by using their energy more efficiently. Young Harry was exhausted by starting a fire with Flickum Bicus, while Adult Harry manages the same task almost effortlessly. A truly skilled magic user - like something on the Senior Council - likely follows the same pattern but to an even greater degree.
If Refinement (or a similar power which can be taken multiple times) is supposed to represent how wizards grow in power, probably that would be the go-to solution.
I don't think that permitting more spellcasting is all that destabilizing, but my proposed houserule would make Lore even more powerful, and that would disrupt the relative balance between the magic-associated skills. You've convinced me that isn't the way to go.
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It's definitely not a concession. You don't 'concede' a fistfight by pulling a gun and trying to shoot your opponent with it. It's an escalation.
That's a bad example. Here's a better one: You're in a fistfight against a local gang leader for control of the gang. You're losing... is pulling a gun a concession, here? Well, actually, yes: you've conceded that you're not getting control of the gang, and are trying to start a different conflict where you and your buddies just wipe them out instead. And the table might decide that, y'know, given it's a concession, it's reasonable to declare that the other guy's buddies intervene before you can get the shot off, and there's a bit of gang-vs-gang fighting while the leaders can stand back and get their breath back.
Edit: Removed a bunch of arguments because, in the time it took me to post this, other people have said them already and there's no point beating a zombie horse.
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That all aside, I'd second the suggestion of stunts or powers to cover no-stress-cost spellcasting. Consider powers like Breath Weapon, Claws (being able to throw out a four foot jet of fire is basically melee range, for just one example), Glamours, the various incite emotion powers (though a wizard may want to avoid those for fear of law-of-magic issues), and balance around those.
Of course, if you do that, you will also need to figure out how to deal with any munchkins you might have, who will quickly realize that they are far more effective adding an extra +2 power to their five-ish big spells than they are by adding a whole bunch of power two spells they can use for free. Maybe start giving out refresh that must be spent on stuff that's not your main focus? (Kinda like D&D EL6 rules, where you stop gaining raw power and start adding gestalt levels...)
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Please stop acting like you're ...x
This gets used a lot by various folks. On the surface, the wording looks like an innocent plea, but the way it gets used, repeatedly, suggests it is not. It's the passive aggressive version of snark. Snark is fun unless directed at another board member or a colleague of Jim's*, in which case it's not allowed.
So...please stop.
*The reason for the powers that be wanting people to be respectful to other people in Jim's field, and anything he gets associated with, is because it can cause backlash against him, even if he has nothing to do with it, because these are his official boards. To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't, but certainly has with his peers, so the powers enforce a high dose of decency and respect not found elsewhere on the net.
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"In the context of the entire series, it's clear that as wizards gain in skill, they learn how to get more out of less - specifically, they make their magical energy 'go farther' by using their energy more efficiently. "
Bingo. Look at Harry's description of Luccio's abilities with fire compared to his.
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"In the context of the entire series, it's clear that as wizards gain in skill, they learn how to get more out of less - specifically, they make their magical energy 'go farther' by using their energy more efficiently. "
Bingo. Look at Harry's description of Luccio's abilities with fire compared to his.
The only reason that's not a fantastic example of your point is that it's possible it's an example of high levels of Discipline and control bonuses adding to the effective damage of a strike - so there's an alternate explanation. Luccio might be less potent and using skill to take the place of power. But I agree that it's pretty strong evidence - if she wanted, Luccio could probably throw fireballs around, too. And likely one of the reasons she doesn't is that she's conserving energy.
In the game, you don't get any benefit from using fewer shifts of power in a spell than your Conviction permits, assuming you can successfully control either level. That's just something that we have to put up with because no system is perfect. The fiction makes it clear that wizards and other entities have limits on how much energy they can usefully devote to magic, sort of like liquid fuel they're carrying around, and if they use that energy efficiently they can effectively do more with it. So using a needle-thin stream of focused fire instead of a massive fireball to make something dead would be preferable if you had the skill to pull it off.
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I need to clarify, that I actually haven't played the game. I'm weird...I need someone who knows the rules to run me through afew sessions before I get the system...at that point I can run things back and forth, but the initial understanding has to be through play, not a rule book. After that, I can go in and get the rules, easily. Yeah, I was hired to write for FASA, designed Falkenstein Paris and consult for Mana Punk but that was for games I already knew very well.
So anything I'm saying is off the books.
As to why I haven't played? No one I know and trust to run a game has run one. The Mana Punk guys I'm a consultant for (world building) run ...well, Mana Punk, as they're constantly refining and testing. Only other folks I know that run games are D&D types.
So I have to take your word on the system ;)
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Please stop acting like you're ...x
This gets used a lot by various folks. On the surface, the wording looks like an innocent plea, but the way it gets used, repeatedly, suggests it is not. It's the passive aggressive version of snark. Snark is fun unless directed at another board member or a colleague of Jim's*, in which case it's not allowed.
So...please stop.
I did not mean it to be snarky, but I apologize for offending.
The only reason that's not a fantastic example of your point is that it's possible it's an example of high levels of Discipline and control bonuses adding to the effective damage of a strike - so there's an alternate explanation. Luccio might be less potent and using skill to take the place of power. But I agree that it's pretty strong evidence - if she wanted, Luccio could probably throw fireballs around, too. And likely one of the reasons she doesn't is that she's conserving energy.
Yeah, Luccio's trick is probably the result of her body having a lot less power to work with (she's stuck with a low Conviction score she can't boost very much), and leaning on her two centuries of training to use it effectively (she was able to keep her high Discipline after the body switch).
In the game, you don't get any benefit from using fewer shifts of power in a spell than your Conviction permits, assuming you can successfully control either level. That's just something that we have to put up with because no system is perfect. The fiction makes it clear that wizards and other entities have limits on how much energy they can usefully devote to magic, sort of like liquid fuel they're carrying around, and if they use that energy efficiently they can effectively do more with it. So using a needle-thin stream of focused fire instead of a massive fireball to make something dead would be preferable if you had the skill to pull it off.
Actually, now that I think of it, this reminds me of an idea I came up with to solve this same "problem" before I was convinced it wasn't actually a problem.
Instead of getting rotes for free, have it so that if you send out an evocation at half your effective Conviction for the element, it's free. As I recall, many of the same commentators here pointed out similar issues to what you're suggesting, but it might work.
I also came up with some rules (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25872.msg1311911.html#msg1311911)for using attack evocations with duration a while back, which is a slightly different issue, but can also go toward longevity.
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O.o No. I stat him up as more potent relative to everyone else's estimations, and it's fairly easy to give him Refresh enough to play with up until the Clusterfuck Trilogy (Changes-Cold Days). But those guys are basically their own major milestone boxes of chocolate. By Skin Game, he's definitely positive refresh.
IMO the only bit that requires a bit of fudging is the Winter Knight upgrade / big fight scene in Changes. Then he 'dies' and temporarily loses those powers, getting a ghost set instead for GS, which isn't especially impressive so probably not massive Refresh cost.
In CD he has no items, so probably dropped several points of Refinement to help pay for his WK powers. And I don't think he really has that much WK power on his sheet given that he mostly doesn't use the mantle to full effect and when it does he messes with him... the 50 foot jump and stuff is Temporary Powers, IMO. He probably only has Marked By Power, Unseelie Magic, Inhuman Strength and Inhuman Toughness with iron catch actually on his sheet ... 5 points of powers, and Changes and GS are at least one major milestone each, and he probably is missing 3 Refinements worth of items (staff, blasting rod, shield bracelet, force rings, duster, maybe Little Chicago) in CD.
CD is another major milestone, and in Skin Game he's spent that on a point of item Refinement to get his staff back. (OK, it seems to also act like force rings, but he only uses that once and it could be just narration for a big spirit evocation blast using the staff as a focus. Or either Changes or CD could have counted as two major milestones, in which case he just has both a focus item and an enchanted item folded into one physical item.)
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Slightly off topic, I was curious just how "Harry the PC" pulled that off. Did he let Lara place a maneuver on him with her powers and tag it, did she hit him with a consequence that he tagged himself?
(my bold)
That's my take - she used Incite Emotion as a maneuver on Harry, and passed the tag to him to use in his spell.
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I agree with the OP, but getting some of the others to agree with will not work. Most of the long time players think the fate rules are good rules.
They do not reflect with any accuracy, what wizards can do in the dresden world, not even close. If you look you can find me posting similar arguments that you have posted. Most of the responses i get are of the kind that will force your characters refresh so high that he becomes unplayable. It is always yes you can do it but add some refresh. Before you know you have a a 15-20 refresh character just so he can do some of the stuff in game that dresden(who i think is a lousy wizard) can do. dont even try to do what the merlin can do.(if you recall he tossed up a ward on the fly that held off the entire red court, i think that included the King but cant remember. In any case it was truely impressive.)
Examples include the alphas, non magical people learning to do one spell that harry dresden cant do and you could never do with thaumaturgy or evocation in game in any meaningful way without spending at least 8 refresh to get something good out of it. And yet in all the games i've played in all the books i read in all the movies I watch wizards can almost always shapechange. No with Fate rules.
In my game I allow any castingst that are 1/2 or less of your conviction and refinement and focus levels cost no stress. its part of the evocation package no additional cost. That means if you have conviction of 4 you can can as many fireballs or fire whatever as you want if you only use half your strength. Its not until you really try to pull off something big that you need to worry about stress.
With this rule you can do some of the stuff carlos did in white knight and still take things down, still have enough umph to keep going when your wounded or out of stress. He nailed crap loads of uber ghouls he finished them off killed them outright in some cases wounded and tired. One uber ghoul would give an in game wizard crap loads of trouble.
Mecanically there is no difference between 5 conviction spell and a 1 conviction spell if your conviction is 5, this is stupid. Both cost 1 stress. So other then control issues you never have a reason to cast weaker spells, they both tire you the same.
Over all I think the magic mechanics need a complete rewrite for the game. Fate rules are a mistake for the dresden world. Way to limiting, not in what you can do but how often you can do it.
Basically your a level 3 d&d wizard for the entire length of the game.
In the end as the OP has noticed if you dont like the rules you will be told to play a different game, which in the end I did. Its sad really one of the best urban settings ever created is saddled with the worst rule set I have ever encountered.. We can only hope when the license runs out another group will get a shot at recreating the world and rules.
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Slightly off topic, I was curious just how "Harry the PC" pulled that off. Did he let Lara place a maneuver on him with her powers and tag it, did she hit him with a consequence that he tagged himself? I could also see him placing a Lore Maneuver on himself with his exposition about emotions and magic. Oh well. Back to our regularly scheduled program.
thats the thing, tthere is nothing in the rules that would ever allow that or could. if you tap an outside force its good for maybe 2 shifts of power not near enugh to pull off what he pulled off on his last legs. remember Lara was running on empty too. Now if the GM and players want to invent outcomes then you really dont need rules, jus tsit down with a couple of beers and talk. But that isnt fun cause in the end just doesnt work.there is no limit to what you can invent. Fate is too much 4 drunk guys making up a story and not enough guide lines that allow the fun to happen the way you imagine it should. I want to know how I can pull it off within the rules.
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You know, potestas, you could solve most of your problems just by playing in a 20-Refresh game and disallowing non-Wizard PCs.
And yet in all the games i've played in all the books i read in all the movies I watch wizards can almost always shapechange.
Really?
Which movies/books/games do you watch/read/play? In my experience wizardly shapeshifting is actually pretty rare.
Its sad really one of the best urban settings ever created is saddled with the worst rule set I have ever encountered.
Hah! Go play Scion some time.
Believe me, it gets worse than this. Much much worse.
I want to know how I can pull it off within the rules.
Invoke an Aspect. Invocations can do anything that seems reasonable.
Fate actually involves less outside-the-rules stuff than most other games, largely because Aspects are so flexible.
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I agree with the OP, but getting some of the others to agree with will not work. Most of the long time players think the fate rules are good rules.
They do not reflect with any accuracy, what wizards can do in the dresden world, not even close. If you look you can find me posting similar arguments that you have posted. Most of the responses i get are of the kind that will force your characters refresh so high that he becomes unplayable. It is always yes you can do it but add some refresh. Before you know you have a a 15-20 refresh character just so he can do some of the stuff in game that dresden(who i think is a lousy wizard) can do. dont even try to do what the merlin can do.(if you recall he tossed up a ward on the fly that held off the entire red court, i think that included the King but cant remember. In any case it was truely impressive.)
The listing of the Merlin in the rulebook is an acknowledged low-balling of him. He's probably easily throwing around 15 shifts at the least for his evocations.
There really isn't anything I can think of that Harry does that the rules don't account for somehow.
Examples include the alphas, non magical people learning to do one spell that harry dresden cant do and you could never do with thaumaturgy or evocation in game in any meaningful way without spending at least 8 refresh to get something good out of it. And yet in all the games i've played in all the books i read in all the movies I watch wizards can almost always shapechange. No with Fate rules.
I don't see how a bunch of other settings are at all relevant for Dresden.
People can fly just by training really hard in DBZ. That doesn't mean it is or should be possible in Dresden.
With this rule you can do some of the stuff carlos did in white knight and still take things down, still have enough umph to keep going when your wounded or out of stress. He nailed crap loads of uber ghouls he finished them off killed them outright in some cases wounded and tired. One uber ghoul would give an in game wizard crap loads of trouble.
That was after Carlos had a chance to get a look at them, and you forget that Carlos's first attack against them totally failed to stop one.
You seem to be confusing the narrative and the mechanics again. Carlos sending a bunch of rapid-fire blasts at a bunch of ghouls is not him throwing a dozen Weapon:2 spells each. It's him throwing one large zone attack and narrating it as the rapid-fire blasts.
Over all I think the magic mechanics need a complete rewrite for the game. Fate rules are a mistake for the dresden world. Way to limiting, not in what you can do but how often you can do it.
I disagree, and I think you're completely off base here. The fate rules as written are damn near perfect for the kinds of things we see Harry do.
There seriously is maybe one, two fights in the entire series where Harry uses more than three or four spells; and when he does, he outright says he's leaning on outside sources.
In the end as the OP has noticed if you dont like the rules you will be told to play a different game, which in the end I did. Its sad really one of the best urban settings ever created is saddled with the worst rule set I have ever encountered.. We can only hope when the license runs out another group will get a shot at recreating the world and rules.
What's this "we" business? I really do not comprehend your issues with this system. It's a pretty solid emulation of the things Dresden can do, and that he can't do things that wizards do in other settings is irrelevant.
thats the thing, tthere is nothing in the rules that would ever allow that or could. if you tap an outside force its good for maybe 2 shifts of power not near enugh to pull off what he pulled off on his last legs. remember Lara was running on empty too. Now if the GM and players want to invent outcomes then you really dont need rules, jus tsit down with a couple of beers and talk. But that isnt fun cause in the end just doesnt work.there is no limit to what you can invent. Fate is too much 4 drunk guys making up a story and not enough guide lines that allow the fun to happen the way you imagine it should. I want to know how I can pull it off within the rules.
Okay, it seems you have misunderstood what happened in that scene, mechanically.
Harry does not tag the aspect for a 2-shift spell. He tags the aspect and takes two shifts of stress off the spell he's using. Which means he can do a spell that would normally fill up his second stress box -- in Harry's case, with his improved shield bracelet and all, is at the very least 7 or 8 shifts. An 8 shift spell to, basically, move a bunch of zones really fast. Not a two-shift spell.
Or he tagged the aspect to say, "Okay, Lara rolled an 8 to place the maneuver, so I'm going to tag that and say it's an 8-shift spell."
There are a whole lot of things you can do with Fate that you don't seem to be aware of.
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You know, potestas, you could solve most of your problems just by playing in a 20-Refresh game and disallowing non-Wizard PCs.
Really?
Which movies/books/games do you watch/read/play? In my experience wizardly shapeshifting is actually pretty rare.
Hah! Go play Scion some time.
Believe me, it gets worse than this. Much much worse.
Invoke an Aspect. Invocations can do anything that seems reasonable.
Fate actually involves less outside-the-rules stuff than most other games, largely because Aspects are so flexible.
I am not going to argue.(well not really)
I know you love the game you have done some wonderful things to make the game better. You have, with some of the other people who frequent this board, have taken a piss poor rule set and made it into something so much better. Its too bad you didn't write the rules and create the game I am pretty sure you would have done better. I have seen your website. You guys are why i keep trying to like the game. But it is not a good rule set for Dresden magic.
I think D&D magic using spell points would actual do a better job representing what Dresden can do. Not the memorizing part but more like rote spell part. Once he learns a spell he ca n cast it at anytime if he has enough spell points. Its pretty much what he does in the books anyway. I think coupling the spell casting to the stress track is the mistake. Perhaps an ingame rule that brings in spell points based on convicition and refinement or somthing like that. With each level of spell costing a spell point. Example average strength spell ocsts 1 point fair cost 2 that sort of thing. I'd have to think about it more.
Harry Potter, 4th level D&D spell polymorph other/self I mean really a wizard should be able to shift his form into a cat at least or a bird :) but that would take about 4 refresh to pull off. Thats why its important to actually have spells in the game and not just descriptions of what can be a spell.
Like I said I am not going to argue with you Sanctaphrax, i know you love the game and the books and you probably know more about the rules then most people on the forum,(including me) but when it comes to the magic aspect of the fate rules the rules need a lot of help. help you guys have provided with a crap load of in house rules and ideas Which as i have mentioned before is proof of the weakness of the rules at least as they apply to dresden style wizards from the book.
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thats pretty much how i solved it, I just wish I had the dresden world already mapped out for me (using d20 rules) as I dont have the time I use to create the whole world or mod it in any meaningful way.
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Mecanically there is no difference between 5 conviction spell and a 1 conviction spell if your conviction is 5, this is stupid. Both cost 1 stress. So other then control issues you never have a reason to cast weaker spells, they both tire you the same.
I think D&D magic using spell points would actual do a better job representing what Dresden can do. Not the memorizing part but more like rote spell part. Once he learns a spell he ca n cast it at anytime if he has enough spell points. Its pretty much what he does in the books anyway. I think coupling the spell casting to the stress track is the mistake. Perhaps an ingame rule that brings in spell points based on convicition and refinement or somthing like that. With each level of spell costing a spell point. Example average strength spell ocsts 1 point fair cost 2 that sort of thing. I'd have to think about it more.
True, but keep in mind that you can get mighty powerful really quickly. A superb starting wizard can take 2 refresh worth of refinement and start out with 8 control 8 power easily. That would mean he can throw around 8 shift attacks with a weapon:4 for free, which is magnitudes greater than any mortal will be able to do. One of those can easily be enough to take out an opponent. Make it a zone weapon:2 attack, it's still free, and you can blast up a whole group of enemies. Sure, that's cool, and I'll happily have you do it, but just like Harry tires when he does something like it, so should the player. Linking it to the mental stress track accomplishes that.
Not to mention that you can easily have enchanted items with additional spells, which you can narrate as casting a low powered spell with a focus item, instead of tapping into a stored spell. Yes, the mechanics handles it like that, but it doesn't have to be on the narrative side. I think the disconnect between those two levels is the core of this whole thread.
Harry Potter, 4th level D&D spell polymorph other/self I mean really a wizard should be able to shift his form into a cat at least or a bird :) but that would take about 4 refresh to pull off. Thats why its important to actually have spells in the game and not just descriptions of what can be a spell.
But this is Harry Dresden, not Potter. Though Fate would do a fine job with that as well, I've seen some great adaptations. The thing is, it's not D&D either, and playing Fate like D&D is going to leave you disliking Fate, I can absolutely understand that.
You don't really need 4 refresh to pull this off. 5 shift ritual to take yourself out, bam, you're a cat. Granted, you don't benefit from all that much from your catness, but that's where temporary powers come in. Skin a cat and use the free tag on the "skin of a cat" aspect to grant you "diminutive size" or "beast change: cat" for a scene. Or eat a cats eyes and use the tag to grant you "supernatural senses: nightvision". Or if you are short on aspects to create, spend a Fate point to achieve the same.
We don't really see any wizard, except LtW, shift into anything. Sure, there are novels and games where this happens, but it's not the Dresden Files. And even then, if you want to accomplish this, give your wizard "modular abilities", one set for the wizard, the other for an animal form, and you have your shapeshifting wizard. There's a lot of ways to accomplish what you want in this game, and yes, it's not as clear cut as some other games, but to me, that's a good thing, as it lets me do things the way I like them to be. House rules are part of the design philosophy of Fate. Make things work for you the way you like them. I was a bit perplexed by this in the beginning as well, but once I dug in, I really liked it.
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True, but keep in mind that you can get mighty powerful really quickly. A superb starting wizard can take 2 refresh worth of refinement and start out with 8 control 8 power easily. That would mean he can throw around 8 shift attacks with a weapon:4 for free, which is magnitudes greater than any mortal will be able to do. One of those can easily be enough to take out an opponent. Make it a zone weapon:2 attack, it's still free, and you can blast up a whole group of enemies. Sure, that's cool, and I'll happily have you do it, but just like Harry tires when he does something like it, so should the player. Linking it to the mental stress track accomplishes that.
Not to mention that you can easily have enchanted items with additional spells, which you can narrate as casting a low powered spell with a focus item, instead of tapping into a stored spell. Yes, the mechanics handles it like that, but it doesn't have to be on the narrative side. I think the disconnect between those two levels is the core of this whole thread.
But this is Harry Dresden, not Potter. Though Fate would do a fine job with that as well, I've seen some great adaptations. The thing is, it's not D&D either, and playing Fate like D&D is going to leave you disliking Fate, I can absolutely understand that.
You don't really need 4 refresh to pull this off. 5 shift ritual to take yourself out, bam, you're a cat. Granted, you don't benefit from all that much from your catness, but that's where temporary powers come in. Skin a cat and use the free tag on the "skin of a cat" aspect to grant you "diminutive size" or "beast change: cat" for a scene. Or eat a cats eyes and use the tag to grant you "supernatural senses: nightvision". Or if you are short on aspects to create, spend a Fate point to achieve the same.
We don't really see any wizard, except LtW, shift into anything. Sure, there are novels and games where this happens, but it's not the Dresden Files. And even then, if you want to accomplish this, give your wizard "modular abilities", one set for the wizard, the other for an animal form, and you have your shapeshifting wizard. There's a lot of ways to accomplish what you want in this game, and yes, it's not as clear cut as some other games, but to me, that's a good thing, as it lets me do things the way I like them to be. House rules are part of the design philosophy of Fate. Make things work for you the way you like them. I was a bit perplexed by this in the beginning as well, but once I dug in, I really liked it.
i also think some of my problem with the game is my lack of understanding of the rules.
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For what it's worth, I don't claim the rules are perfect. And I don't really want to argue all the time.
But when you post I often feel like I just walked into a room and heard the last line of a long conversation. It's like...that sounds kinda crazy, except I'm pretty sure it makes more sense in context. Makes it kinda hard not to reply.
Well, not actually difficult. But you know what I mean.
PS: No matter how much you hate Fate, there's worse out there. So much worse.
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There are many times in the books, and multiple times pre-Turn Coat, where Dresden uses lots of spells.
He normally doesn't use all that many, certainly. Rather the same way he doesn't run until he passes out from exhaustion, or eat until he's in danger of rupturing, or hold his breath until he's at risk from anoxia. He has no reason to do that. But on those occasions where he casts spells until he's running dangerously low on power, he can do far more than four or five.
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But remember, you can flavor a role however you want. Example:
At the table: Bob roles a +2 on the dice, giving his character Miles a 6 weapon: 5 attack. The GM rolls a -4, so the attack takes out the vampire.
In the story: The vampire dodged yet another one of Miles' spells. How freaking fast where these thing? "Come on Warden, is that really all you have? How you ever expect to win this war?" It ducked behind a bookcase and gave it a mighty shove, attempting to flatten Miles. Oh hell no, you might have a beef with me, but you leave the books out of this. "Schlag!" A gale erupted from Miles' outstretched hand, knocking the bookcase the other direction. The vampire, startled by the sudden surge of power, leapt out of the way. Now, vampires are extremely quick and agile, but even they cannot ignore all of the laws of physics, especially the one about objects in motion staying in motion. Miles aimed at the spot where the Vampire would land, gathered his will yet again, and roared "Bewegung!" The blast caught the vampire square in the chest, knocking him through one wall and halfway through another, which is saying a lot considering they were made of concrete reenforced with rebar. Miles walked up to the broken body of the vampire and looked into its wide, surprised eyes, and said "Like that" before decapitating it with another force of will.
This may be a bit extreme, but the point is that you can flavor your spell as multiple different spells no problem. The mechanics don't so much tell the story so much as they summarize it. You can boil down a 30 minute martial arts fight into one contest, one roll, if you really wanted to.
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Exactly. It's the same thing as how the book says you could roll Survival once to represent surviving over a period of time in the wilderness. The rules are an abstract, not an absolute.
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We've been over this before. The book examples do not involve Harry casting meaningless spells that do nothing, followed by an effective spell with definite consequences that would be represented mechanically.
He casts lots and lots of spells, all of which have described effects with what would be mechanical consequences in a game. They can't be described as 'color', they are significant actions.
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In a play by post my character cast a huge spell and obliterated all the enemies. I described it as having burned my characters hands even though she took no backlash. I am going to describe the wounds as healing. She has recovery but did not actually use the power but I wanted to illustrate that she could heal. It was all description for effect.
Would you not allow this in your games? Or does every single mechanic need a literal description?
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We've been over this before. The book examples do not involve Harry casting meaningless spells that do nothing, followed by an effective spell with definite consequences that would be represented mechanically.
Point of fact, they do. Changes in particular has that as part of his duel with Arianna, where Harry says he's constantly using Spirit to tear down stones to throw at Arianna to no effect, for at least a minute.
He casts lots and lots of spells, all of which have described effects with what would be mechanical consequences in a game. They can't be described as 'color', they are significant actions.
Where, exactly, is he doing this? I don't recall it happening, so please tell me which sequences he's casting this many spells.
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In a play by post my character cast a huge spell and obliterated all the enemies. I described it as having burned my characters hands even though she took no backlash. I am going to describe the wounds as healing. She has recovery but did not actually use the power but I wanted to illustrate that she could heal. It was all description for effect.
Would you not allow this in your games?
I have no problems with people enacting consequences on themselves that the rules don't mandate. I do have problems with people ignoring the consequences that the rules DO mandate - which means that I'm very concerned about what the rules do and do not say.
At present, the rules do a great job of representing wizards early in their careers... but don't represent the increase in their magical power well.
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Do you really think my players - or most people playing the game - aren't going to have serious issues with the GM if the people and monsters they're challenging suddenly revitalize and lose all their stress mid-combat, just because the GM decided to arbitrarily declare a rest break? It's not good storytelling and it's not good game play.
This is actually a common problem I find among people. They don't actually understand how recover works, or what stress is. Stress is only how close you come to damage in a fight, every time Dresden narrowly dodges an attack, or just BARELY got out of the way. It's a really good rule that when combat is over, stress clears, but RECOVERY doesn't start, that's the big thing. In that fight, Dresden had stopped being attack, I believe in the book it specifically says that Marcone's goons had taken up the fighting in front of them, so that means Dresden was in the eye of the storm.
Now going off the rule that stress clears at the end of combat, and that he casted the spells correctly and got his stress to line up to where he only had to take his mild consequences, he could have gotten off 10 spells.
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Stress also includes attacks that hit but aren't important to the narrative ever again.
Eg, you get knocked around, bruised and a bit of road-rash on the gravel. Nowhere else in the book is it mentioned beyond saying how nice a bath feels, or included in a litany of other stuff being treated. Stress, not consequences.
The same attack results a later situation where your scabs open and you bleed in a later conflict, causing either a bad result (bleeding on your new tux in a social situation) or a good one (your buddies track you by your blood trail and show up in the nick of time). Consequence, not Stress, even though the injury might be narrated the same way. In one case, the injury is important in a later scene, so it must have been an aspect that could be compelled or invoked.
Hell, in some situations, having your clothes torn up in a fight is more important than having an arm break given what's likely to happen next. Mild social consequences might be something to negotiate for, instead of a physical injury. Can't begin recovery until you have a chance to repair the clothes. Craft or Resources or maybe deceit/glamor would be what you heal with, instead of Scholarship/medicine.
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i also think some of my problem with the game is my lack of understanding of the rules.
Then don't comment on how the rules are broken and terrible. Oh my sweet baby jesus. That's like someone playing league of legends in bronze saying blah item is broken, or this champion needs a nerf.
Yes, when you start out as a caster, the rules suck. They suck an incredible amount of dick, and in my group I tried to change them. Fast forward to 2 years later (different character) I feel bad for playing a wizard. Legitimately feel broken. Yes, if all you had at your disposal was a base wizard with no refinement, focus items, or enchanted items, you'd feel useless too, I know I did. Taking evocation/thaumaturgy gives you 4 focus item slots, and focus items in turn give you rotes. Rote spells are assumed to not need a discipline roll for controlling the spells only for aiming a predetermined shift spell, so there's no chance of you having to take fallout or backlash
Harry's blasting rod RAW gives him a +1 to control, and allows for him to cast his rote Fuego!, which I believe is a 6 shift attack when he has his blasting rod. That means, even though his discipline with the rod is only 4, he takes the 1 mental stress, and gets to, with very good luck, one shot something. If someone rolls an effective 0 athletics roll to dodge his Fuego! rote, and harry rolls an effective 4 on his discipline, he's hitting some poor sap for 10 damage. That's 1 stress, for a 4 stress box, mild, and moderate consequence, and that isn't a rare occurrence for a wizard that knows his stuff. Also wizards can just dump stress and consequences in a zone attack, and with FP and maneuvers, can fry a horde of almost anything.
Now look at thaumaturgy. Thaumaturgy is stupid OP. It lets you craft enchanted items. Use magic as an investigation roll (divination), use ghosts/demons to get information, craft potions, giant zone border, and really really complex veils. In combat, summoning ghosts/demons can get you information that can get you an aspect on something you're going to fight, or just solve regular problems in your story, divination can give you an investigation roll equal to shifts of power equal of your spell (which my guy usually gets 8 shifts of effect) which can then give you aspects or just help you learn impossible things, and in direct magical slugging, enchanted items are the most useful.
Right off the bat, with thaumaturgy you can make a ring that will do damage=adjusted lore + aim roll - defense roll, to a target. So if you have a +1 no prep complexity focus item and a lore of 4, you now have a ring that will do a flat 5 shifts + your aim roll. If you built a wizard, or even a practitioner with just thaumaturgy, who's really good at crafting (specialization in crafting) you can now straight add an extra use, or an extra shift of power to every item you have, for free, just for declaring your you have a specialization in crafting. Not to mention the power you can put into your no prep lore with focus items. This also applies to potions as well which I'm not going to talk about because I'm too lazy to explain all you can do with them.
Fighting with magic isn't exclusively about just spamming evocations into an enemy and hoping he goes down before you run out of ammo. You have to be resourceful, and I would argue that thaumaturgy has the same, if not more use in combat, than evocation does.
Let me set you up a scenario of a submerged crafting wizard with a lore+discipline of both 5, and 2 points in refinement (Adding the +1/+1 to crafting, and 2 focus item slots). 6 focus item slots. Let spend 2 of them to have a focus item giving +2 to lore. Now what would happen if you put your remaining focus item slots into enchanted item slots. You now have 8 slots to make focus items, with a base 8 damage with 2 extra uses, or a base 9 damage, with 1 extra use. Lets go 8 damage with 2 uses. You can then shove your remaining 7 slots into uses, having an enchanted item with 8 damage, 5 (unadjusted) aim, and 9 uses. Combine that with your ability to cast evocation spells, and in one fight you have over 10 magic attacks. Hell, if you wanted to be really annoying, you could build an enchanted armor coat the equivalent of a tank. Just have a coat with base block of 9 shifts and 1 extra use, throw your 7 other enchanted item slots into it, make it a block of 16 with 1 extra use per session, that's enough protection to block your 4 stress, a mild, moderate, and severe consequence twice a session. If you half the block strength you can just make it a passive armor 8 with 2 uses a session, half it again and you can make it always on (that's a house rule I believe) for an always on armor 4.
Don't think one directional, think with portals
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There's a couple misunderstandings you're under, here.
Yes, when you start out as a caster, the rules suck. They suck an incredible amount of dick, and in my group I tried to change them. Fast forward to 2 years later (different character) I feel bad for playing a wizard. Legitimately feel broken. Yes, if all you had at your disposal was a base wizard with no refinement, focus items, or enchanted items, you'd feel useless too, I know I did. Taking evocation/thaumaturgy gives you 4 focus item slots, and focus items in turn give you rotes. Rote spells are assumed to not need a discipline roll for controlling the spells only for aiming a predetermined shift spell, so there's no chance of you having to take fallout or backlash
You don't need focus items for rotes. You can have rotes without any foci at all.
Harry's blasting rod RAW gives him a +1 to control, and allows for him to cast his rote Fuego!, which I believe is a 6 shift attack when he has his blasting rod. That means, even though his discipline with the rod is only 4, he takes the 1 mental stress, and gets to, with very good luck, one shot something. If someone rolls an effective 0 athletics roll to dodge his Fuego! rote, and harry rolls an effective 4 on his discipline, he's hitting some poor sap for 10 damage. That's 1 stress, for a 4 stress box, mild, and moderate consequence, and that isn't a rare occurrence for a wizard that knows his stuff. Also wizards can just dump stress and consequences in a zone attack, and with FP and maneuvers, can fry a horde of almost anything.
This is incorrect. If Harry is casting a 6-shift rote with an effective Discipline of 4, he's still taking 2 shifts of backlash -- he just doesn't risk taking more with a bad roll.
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Actually I routinely stat up my casters with rotes that are higher than my conviction.
What are the higher stress boxes on my character sheet for anyway? Also if you're going to take a consequence for casting a spell anyway, whether it's two stress or four why not get the full benefit of it? So yeah, if I have a lore of three+, I'll usually have a 1 stress, 2 stress and 4 stress rote, likely using focus items to get enough discipline to control the 2 or 4 stress rotes (sometimes I just accept I'll be invoking an aspect or having backlash/fallout to control the rote if high enough discipline isn't in the cards)
So instead of getting, say, four rotes with 6 shifts each that I can easily control, I'll have a 6 shift, a 7 shift and a 9 shift rote that take more stress to activate, but make better use of my stress box resources (after 3 spells, I'm taking a consequence anyway to get the 4th, and if I'm gonna take a consequence I might as well get a 7 or 9 shift effect instead of a 6 shift one....)
But that's just the spell track. If I'm looking at a warden type, somebody who expects to get into fights, that person is going to have a way of laying down the hurt with no spell at all (weapons, guns, something) or he's going to have enchanted items that accomplish the same thing with enough uses to get me through a hard battle (see Dresden's ring, his potions, his belt buckle in one adventure, an animated electrical cord+plug in another etc). He might also have social skills, to get advantage through banter (Dresden's constantly using intimidate in fights to piss people off instead of just blasting them) and if none of that seems like enough, most wizards with thaum can spend a few minutes generating several spells that give them other advantages the next time they get into a fight in a day when they've been filling their consequences up.
Of course I'm willing to play 1 conviction spellcasters, spellcasters with zero lore skills, etc. My generic wizard though is going to be able to routinely bust out 7-9 attack roll/7 shift area and single target attacks/maneuvers/blocks/etc (I tend to use extra shifts from high mental stress attacks on areas) in their specialty and a little less in areas they aren't as good at (generally similar power, less accuracy). That's the benchmark you're looking at without any points spent in refinement, and at least 30 skill points to play with. It's a measure nobody but a caster can manage, not even with military explosives..you're looking at more like what a fully crewed APC might bring to the table, maybe even a main battle tank.
Yeah, I can only do 3 of those a fight, 4 with short term consequences, 5 if my conviction is 5 for some reason. More if I have sponsored magic. If you can't win a fight with those, you should probably be thinking about running away or conceding anyway. If you're not sure, use your non-spell options and keep your powder dry.
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Don't think one directional, think with portals
Portals? Where we're going we don't need any portals!
Basically wanted to say what Mr. Death said, but he was faster. :)
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This is incorrect. If Harry is casting a 6-shift rote with an effective Discipline of 4, he's still taking 2 shifts of backlash -- he just doesn't risk taking more with a bad roll.
I always have practitioners with equal conviction and discipline. I thought the rule was that it's automatically assumed you can control the spell, and in normal spellcasting if you don't control the spell you take backlash
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I always have practitioners with equal conviction and discipline. I thought the rule was that it's automatically assumed you can control the spell, and in normal spellcasting if you don't control the spell you take backlash
It's assumed that the control part of your discipline roll is 0, so you can't go negative. So if you have a total control of 4 and cast a 5 shift rote and roll a +2 on the dice for a +6 total, you take 1 shift of casting stress and 1 shift of backlash, because the control for the rote was only a 4, even though your roll total was enough to control all 5 shifts.
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It's assumed that the control part of your discipline roll is 0, so you can't go negative. So if you have a total control of 4 and cast a 5 shift rote and roll a +2 on the dice for a +6 total, you take 1 shift of casting stress and 1 shift of backlash, because the control for the rote was only a 4, even though your roll total was enough to control all 5 shifts.
Yea my GM just told me that. God, fuck that option. I'll stay at even or positive discipline practitioners.
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Yea my GM just told me that. God, fuck that option. I'll stay at even or positive discipline practitioners.
I value Control over Power as well. A weapon:12 nuke isn't going to help you if your 4 shift attack roll misses.
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I value Control over Power as well. A weapon:12 nuke isn't going to help you if your 4 shift attack roll misses.
Nukes do a lot of collateral damage. FALL OUT BABY!
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I value Control over Power as well. A weapon:12 nuke isn't going to help you if your 4 shift attack roll misses.
Yup, get more bang for your buck. +1 conviction gives you the exact same damage as +1 discipline, but +1 discipline also increases your chance to hit.
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Yup, get more bang for your buck. +1 conviction gives you the exact same damage as +1 discipline, but +1 discipline also increases your chance to hit.
Though at some point, it helps to raise power as well, since you can increase the power without risk. I feel that having power trail 2 shifts behind control is a good bet, because the chance for fallout/backlash is minimal, while the spell will still be pretty powerful.
Nukes do a lot of collateral damage. FALL OUT BABY!
It's all fun and games, until you remember you look ridiculous without eyebrows. :P
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Yup, get more bang for your buck. +1 conviction gives you the exact same damage as +1 discipline, but +1 discipline also increases your chance to hit.
While true, what makes wizard spells insanely powerful is the ability to add "outcome" shifts by just taking more mental stress. Why reserve all the fun of that to non-rote spells :). Yeah, you want to crank that discipline up there, but you those higher boxes on your conviction stress chart are like free "bang" as long as you aren't so far behind your discipline that you start taking consequences making use of them when drawing power.
I mean, wizards ALSO can get a +4 to hit with a focus item, where the best a stunt can add is +1. But the equivalent of just drawing an extra 3 power over conviction (checking 4th stress box instead of 1st) is a stunt AND a fate point (Deadly Blow). And you can do both, with no extra skill investment needed beyond lore to improve the max quality of your foci.
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Though at some point, it helps to raise power as well, since you can increase the power without risk. I feel that having power trail 2 shifts behind control is a good bet, because the chance for fallout/backlash is minimal, while the spell will still be pretty powerful.
It's all fun and games, until you remember you look ridiculous without eyebrows. :P
also blocks and effects are determined by power so you still need power close just in you want to create aspecs for tagging
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also blocks and effects are determined by power so you still need power close just in you want to create aspecs for tagging
True. Though that's actually a rule I never really liked. Sure, I'll need to put in some power to hold off something, but finesse should play just as much a role, which at the moment it doesn't really do. My alternate evocation rules addressed that, but I never got around to test them.