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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on August 22, 2021, 11:52:57 PM

Title: Star born and the Antichrist
Post by: Yuillegan on August 22, 2021, 11:52:57 PM

So recently I was reading through Storm Front looking for other bits of information, and I stumbled upon a passage where Harry says "I was a walking Antichrist waiting to happen".

Given that Jim has said previously he has clues in Storm Front that no one apparently has picked up on, and that he planned certain things that affect the ending of the series way back in book 1 (or something along those lines), I believe that this clue might be one of those things. Especially given what we know now about star born from the last few books.

So I thought I would refresh my mind about the lore around the Antichrist and I found a few good things.

• Firstly, the name is combination of the word "Christ" which meant "annointed one" in ancient Greek and "Anti" which means "instead of" and "against" and "in place of".
  
  
• There is potentially more than one Antichrist. "He is one and he is many."
  
  This is super significant to me. The idea comes from the New Testament of the Bible and there are dual terms - Pseudochrist and Antichrist. The Pseudochrist means "False Messiah" and I will go into this more in another point. It's interesting to note that sometimes Antichrist was in plural form and could refer to a particular category of people rather than a singular individual.
  
  
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  Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour.
  
  — 1 John 2:18 Douay-Rheims

  
  To me, this could be the star born. Individuals who possess the potential to be these Antichrists. Perhaps the term became distorted from the what it really means in the Dresden Universe. One thing we know is that many things have multiple names and identities, and many things get lost, so it's possible that Antichrists or even Christ might not mean what we think it does, especially as we only have reference to our world.
  
  
  
• The Pseudochrist is a term more about an individual person who will try and displace Christ and lead good Christians astray. I don't believe this is exactly the same for the Dresden Files but I think there are some similarities.
  
  In Chapter 2 of Thesssalonians:
  
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  As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction [Ed note - possibly translated also as "the son of destruction"]. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God.
  
  — 2 Thessalonians 2:1–4 NRSV (1989)

  
  Who could be called "the lawless one" in the Dresden Files? The "one destined for destruction"? Sounds quite like Harry Dresden whom Mab has called "an elemental of destruction", and Morgan called a possible "Destroyer" (capital D). What doesn't quite gel is the idea of Harry opposing and exalting himself above every god, and declaring himself to be God.
  
  So I propose there are two possible answers. One is that Harry is not the actual Pseudochrist, he's just a red herring, and someone like Elaine or Cowl or whoever is.
  
  The other possibility is that Harry is this Pseudochrist but doesn't yet realise it but the language of the passage is misleading. Harry elevating himself above gods is about ascending to be a god, and declaring himself to "be" God is about the nature of star born.
  
  I believe the latter is more likely. I think it's possible that star born are actually part of TWG in the Dresden Files, and Harry will realise that, but it also means he can become a monster. There are several hints about Harry becoming immortal - particularly Mab in Battle Ground. So in this scenario Harry the Pseudochrist and/or Antichrist is not the opposite of Christ, but merely has the potential to be. Case in point - look at Drakul.
  
  
  
• Irenaeus wrote a book "Against Heresies" to refute the teachings of the Gnostics (a sect of Christianity sort-of). He used the number 666 to decode several possible names.
  
  It is interesting right after Harry refers to himself as "a walking Antichrist waiting to happen" Harry then quotes Yeats "Second Coming". Could Harry be the "slouching Beast, waiting to be born"?
  
  Indeed, Hippolytus of Rome identified the Antichrist with the Beast of the Earth from Revelations.
  
  
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  By the beast, then, coming up out of the earth, he means the kingdom of Antichrist; and by the two horns he means him and the false prophet after him. And in speaking of "horns like a lamb," he means that he will make himself like the Son of God, and set himself forward as king. And the terms, "it spoke like a dragon," mean that he is a deceiver, and not truthful.[21]

  
  Interestingly, one of the few other confirmed star born just happens to be called Dragon, or rather, Drakul. We know in history Vlad II Drakul was named so because of his affiliation with a knightly order called the Order of the Dragon. Perhaps the Order of the Dragon were not a holy order (not in the sense of the Knights of the Cross) but perhaps more like a particularly dark sect devoted to a terrible truth of Christianity. Perhaps they were really just the Order of the Antichrist.
  
  Also - this is a good example of how saying something was "like a Dragon" didn't literally mean a Dragon. It was an allegory for liars and decievers - the word Dragon comes from the ancient Greek word "Drakon" which meant serpent. As we know in Christian theology, it is the Serpent in the Garden of Eden who is the tempter and the liar.
  
  
  
• Jerome of Stridon said in his Commentary on Daniel
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  "Let us not follow the opinion of some commentators and suppose him to be either the Devil or some demon, but rather, one of the human race, in whom Satan will wholly take up his residence in bodily form." Instead of rebuilding the Jewish Temple to reign from, Jerome thought the Antichrist sat in God's Temple inasmuch as he made "himself out to be like God." He refuted Porphyry's idea that the "little horn" mentioned in Daniel chapter 7 was Antiochus IV Epiphanes by noting that the "little horn" is defeated by an eternal, universal ruler, right before the final judgment.[29] Instead, he advocated that the "little horn" was the Antichrist:

  
  Satan in human form. Interesting that one of the star born we know of (Drakul) is "something entirely unhuman trapped in mortal form". Drakul's eyes are also described as "black as the soul of Hell".
  
  I am not so sure Drakul is Lucifer in human form though...but an aspect of the Devil could work, or a demon, either would work well enough. I feel like an Archangel would be too big and powerful to be in one body so perhaps spreads his power into several...or perhaps they are more like his children. I know Uriel transubstantiated into a single body (yet I suspect he was still operating in other universes - so the stakes might not have been *quite* as high as Dresden and Michael thought), even if Uriel just vanished from the multiverse to concentrate himself into a single event in space-time it could well be an entirely different circumstance as Lucifer is known for breaking the rules, after all.
  
  So I feel like these Antichrists are more likely the sons/daughters of Lucifer if anything.
  
  What's interesting is Jim has been quite coy on the subject of Lucifer. He has said Lucifer does rule in Hell as that was the deal and you can't get any worse than him, but he's also went back on what we were lead to believe in Small Favor in that Lucifer didn't personally unload his power on Earth, more likely a lieutenant did it for him. The way he said it was almost like he was trying to hint at something.
  
  
  
• The Antichrist could be a mantle. The Wisconsin Lutheran Synod:
  
  
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  The Bible does not present the Antichrist as one man for one short time, but as an office held by a man through successive generations. It is a title like King of England.

  
  Sounds like a mantle to me. And as we know, mantles are an excellent way for mortals to become immortal (without a rite of ascendance) and therefore perhaps more reversible.
  
  
  
• The Son of Perdition has often been associated and included as being the same as the Antichrist. The Son of Perdition has multiple different titles e.g. The Lost Child and The Child of Corruption. Even "the one doomed to destruction" is another possible translation, and some associate the Son of Perdition with being the "Man of Sin".
  
  The idea comes from an association with "the star that fell from Heaven" using certain language - two names, one that is Greek and one that is Hebrew. The Greek name Apollyon refers to "eternal destruction, utter loss, and disasociation" and the Hebrew name Abaddon which it's root word "abad" is the same as the root of Apollyon "apollumni". It is said to be the destiny of "the great beast" to be slain and his body destroyed ('abad') and his body given to eternal flame (Hell).
  
  Harry, being an orphan, was a "lost child" and was raised at a formative age by a dark wizard - so could also be "a child of corruption".
  
  
• Apart from being widely recognised as the Son of Satan, according to the monk and abbot Adso of Montier-en-Der, the Antichrist would be raised in all forms of wickedness by wizards.
  
  That couldn't be our protagonist...could it?
  

Title: Re: Star born and the Antichrist
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 23, 2021, 12:01:12 AM

Very well put together, I see the thread's of conversation that have taken place over the last few months or so. I still think Mammon would be a good allegory for Drakul, preserving the Lucifer connection, letting him be something completely inhuman and yet born into human form. Perhaps the original "antichrist" event already happened but he was duped into his current, though powerful, limited incarnation. Considering the duality in the DF, it could be he was reborn as it were around the same time TWC came.

Title: Re: Star born and the Antichrist
Post by: Yuillegan on August 23, 2021, 12:16:39 AM

Thanks Sibelis, I'd been meaning to write it up for a little while but too many distractions got in the way.

Yeah, a lot of discussions on the forum helped me with this (which is why there are several different possible conclusions within this theory). One of the best things about being on these forums is that we share ideas and get great discussion going, even if at times we take strong positions against one another. It really helps to work through ideas in your own head and see things from other angles - especially as I often find people look at things in ways I wouldn't consider and have great new information to add.

I get what you mean about Mammon. He's certainly looking more and more likely to be part of the series. I like the idea of Drakul being the "first" star born. Something about that is especially epic and sinister. The "born" part of star born also suggests that star born are "children" of something, which makes it yet more likely.

It wouldn't even surprise me that around the the time of TWC that Drakul was working in opposition, as you suggest. It's particularly interesting as Tiberius was the incoming Emperor of Rome at the time of Christ's crucifixion. Nero was still fairly young at this time (give or take as the dates around the crucifixion are a bit flexible) but Nero and Caligula were both identified with the "man of lawlessness". Indeed, there is more recent research to suggest the number of the Beast isn't 666 but 616 as that corresponds to Nero.

Could it be that Drakul was an infamous Roman Emperor around this time?

Title: Re: Star born and the Antichrist
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 23, 2021, 02:57:32 AM

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The "born" part of star born also suggests that star born are "children" of something, which makes it yet more likely

I find it interesting they've at least once(more iirc) been called"children of the stars". I've had a few ideas based on the "hero's coming from the stars/being born into them" trope I toy around with when thinking about what actually gives birth to them. One being

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the 5 and 8 celestial bodies known to humanity(in Greek times, spec. Visible by the naked eye) might be aligned in such a way as to shed their archetypical influence onto those born under it, almost horoscope like. Though, looking at the number of possible starborn archetypes in play, more might be there than that, and those are simply those that shine the strongest?
As far as starborn, I wonder if they can't  ultimately exist in both mortal and "star" form, by perfectly aligning with the manifestation of their powers on all wavelengths. The result, in my mind, would be an archangel like Uriel, something beyond space and time but that also seems to house actual soul and choice, even if exercising that choice has disasterious consequences. Basically, something that needs a higher circle to contain because it exists in truth on both plans of existence.
Though, there are quite a few lesser manifestations of that power, potentially broken down on purpose, beings who share aspects of what could potentially be a singular being.

Drakul overseeing the fall of Rome would make a good story, either by his own design or because he'd corrupted it's framework to the core similar to the Ramps taking over a culture.

Title: Re: Star born and the Antichrist
Post by: Basil on August 23, 2021, 04:33:16 AM

At Y's suggestion I'm copypasta'ing a post on another thread to this thread:

Always interesting at the Dresden forums....

Bible study time!  Here is some Bible background on Antichrist.  There are actually two Greek words (the original Gospels were in Greek) used in the New Testament that in English get turned into "antichrist" -- pseduochristos and antichristos.

First, "antichristos" is really just those who deny Jesus.  These people are literally everywhere from Atheists on down to Muslims (whose doctrine denies the divinity of Jesus).  Not great from a Christian perspective, but hardly harbingers of DOOOM!:

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John 1:7: "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

John 2:18: "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour."

John 2:22: "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."

John 4:3: "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

Second, the word "pseudochristos" is the false messiahs.  These people are much more rare and, arguably, much more dangerous:

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Mathew 24:24: "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."

Mark 13:22: "for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect."

Note, however, these fake messiahs can produce signs and wonders -- i.e., do magic.  Building from this idea you get the Psuedochristos' final form -- the "Man of Sin" -- or transliterated from the Greek: "ho anthropos tes hamartias"

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2 Thessalonians 2:2-4: "not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness— the son of destruction— is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.…"

So this isn't just a pseudochristos, but THE Pseudochristos.  The Man of Sin is a rebel and a destroyer, an agent of chaos whose hubris and arrogance sets himself above God.  That's what Harry is telling us he could end up being.  And, given the amount of personal power at his disposal .... not an unrealizable goal.

Title: Re: Star born and the Antichrist
Post by: Mira on August 23, 2021, 01:26:14 PM

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So this isn't just a pseudochristos, but THE Pseudochristos.  The Man of Sin is a rebel and a destroyer, an agent of chaos whose hubris and arrogance sets himself above God.  That's what Harry is telling us he could end up being.  And, given the amount of personal power at his disposal .... not an unrealizable goal.

At this point anyway Harry has enough humility to prevent that from happening.  And as long as Harry realizes it could happen to him, I don't think it will happen. And the more I think of it, the importance of Malcolm in the genetic equation that makes up the star born Harry.  I think when Margaret met him she felt it was possible to conceive of the needed star born without creating an anti-christlike figure.

Title: Re: Star born and the Antichrist
Post by: Yuillegan on August 25, 2021, 10:16:26 AM

Quote from: Mira on August 23, 2021, 01:26:14 PM

At this point anyway Harry has enough humility to prevent that from happening.  And as long as Harry realizes it could happen to him, I don't think it will happen. And the more I think of it, the importance of Malcolm in the genetic equation that makes up the star born Harry.  I think when Margaret met him she felt it was possible to conceive of the needed star born without creating an anti-christlike figure.

I agree in a sense. I don't believe the Harry that we know is capable of being that person.

That being said, if you look at Harry's darkest moments (particularly the ones where he tried going down the left hand path - e.g. Storm Front when he's outside Sells house & Battle Ground when he tried to kill Rudolph) he looks pretty bad. Really bad. If you look at the language he uses he very much could be that being.

I don't necessarily believe it was Malcolm's genetics that played a key role. Rather, it was his parenting. His teachings and modelling of behaviour.

I think there is an alternate version that could be the Pseudochrist. Whether the Harry we are familiar with could be is another question.

Title: Re: Star born and the Antichrist
Post by: Mira on August 25, 2021, 02:36:53 PM

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That being said, if you look at Harry's darkest moments (particularly the ones where he tried going down the left hand path - e.g. Storm Front when he's outside Sells house & Battle Ground when he tried to kill Rudolph) he looks pretty bad. Really bad. If you look at the language he uses he very much could be that being.

Yes, but in Storm Front if you are talking about when he was outside of the lake front house that Sells owned, I think he was thinking of what is possible verses him going down that road himself.  Yes, he was tempted for the moment, remember he'd slipped on that banana before when he killed Justin, which makes slipping again easier. But then the spirit of his mother saved him, he felt her touch and he clasped the pentacle that came from her, it reminded him of the danger and what he should be about. 

I don't count his feelings when he went after Rudolph when he killed Murphy as the same.  I think the wild range of emotions he felt in that moment can be considered normal, ugly and violent to be sure, but a pure emotional reaction.  Having said that, yes, I know he is a wizard, Winter Knight, which ramps up whatever reaction he was having, and that makes him very dangerous.  Not unlike someone who is armed and witnessing a loved one being killed.  I've read of at least two war time accounts where upon witnessing "buddies" being killed a soldier goes a bit "crazy" taking out numerous machine gun nests etc single handedly.  However that doesn't make him a antichrist or the antichrist.  Now I can be wrong, but from what little I've read, Harry doesn't fit that definition, at least not yet.

From what Basil said;

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So this isn't just a pseudochristos, but THE Pseudochristos.  The Man of Sin is a rebel and a destroyer, an agent of chaos whose hubris and arrogance sets himself above God.  That's what Harry is telling us he could end up being.  And, given the amount of personal power at his disposal .... not an unrealizable goal.

I can see Harry being sorely tempted because he does have what some would call "godlike powers."
Harry doesn't have that kind of hubris.. However I just came across something very interesting when I looked up the definition of "hubris."

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(in Greek tragedy) excessive pride toward or defiance of the gods, leading to nemesis.

Is it a coincidence or is this what Jim is driving at by calling the Enemy, "Nemesis"?  Or more to the point, Harry is the one to defeat Nemesis because he lacks that kind of pride and defiance?

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I don't necessarily believe it was Malcolm's genetics that played a key role. Rather, it was his parenting. His teachings and modelling of behaviour.

That too, and I think Margaret saw that in Malcolm, it is almost a given that at some point they soul gazed, though I have no proof of that.  She also saw his goodness, there is a reason why over the series Harry is repeatedly told he inherited his father's good heart.  That good heart has prevented him from going too far down the wrong road when he has crossed the line.

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think there is an alternate version that could be the Pseudochrist. Whether the Harry we are familiar with could be is another question.

The temptation is there, with the exception of the Gail, he now has in his possession all the Artifacts we associate with Jesus and the Crucifixion, redemption, salvation, however far one wants to go with it.  So if Harry wanted to set himself of as a Christlike figure and demand a following based on that, he now has the tools.  Actually in Battle Ground when ordinary people followed him under "his Banner,"  if Harry was going to go all pseudochrist on us, that would have been the time.