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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on June 03, 2021, 02:42:28 PM
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So in Skin Game Uriel says he's been fighting wars since before the Earth was a gascious substance... makes you wonder what wars he was fighting.
Outsiders and Cthuhlu are the obvious choices... I kinda want him to have fought extraterrestrials as well.
Primordial gods would make sense as well.
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So in Skin Game Uriel says he's been fighting wars since before the Earth was a gascious substance... makes you wonder what wars he was fighting.
Outsiders and Cthuhlu are the obvious choices... I kinda want him to have fought extraterrestrials as well.
Primordial gods would make sense as well.
The Old Testament is full of wars that I am sure he participated in, one way or another, direct or indirect.. And yes, I wouldn't discount wars in galaxies far, far, away.. ::)
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The Old Testament is full of wars that I am sure he participated in, one way or another, direct or indirect..
Yes, but that was after the Earth was formed. He was speaking of before that.
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I'm pretty sure it was indirect unless the Outsiders are separated from our WG
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Yes, but that was after the Earth was formed. He was speaking of before that.
When was Lucifer's rebellion? He had clearly been cast out by the time of the Garden. That's one for sure.
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Or he fought them before he became Uriel
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If I had to guess I'd say either:
1. The Rebellion
2. The Outsiders
3. Titans/gods from other Pantheons
It's possible that every other Pantheon of beliefs has Beings that have always existed, but it was TWG and His Angels that won out as the ultimate rulers of reality.
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If I had to guess I'd say either:
1. The Rebellion
2. The Outsiders
3. Titans/gods from other Pantheons
It's possible that every other Pantheon of beliefs has Beings that have always existed, but it was TWG and His Angels that won out as the ultimate rulers of reality.
This seems fairly accurate, although I am not sure about the order of events. Jim said that Lucifer's shenanigans at the beginning of Creation caused all sorts of problems which partly contributed to why the Gods of various religions have differing Creation accounts. I also seem to remember something about how the Outsiders were very upset when Creation happened because it was so loud an noisy. If I had to guess I'd say it goes - Outsider/Old One war, War in Heaven, Titan/gods war.
Or he fought them before he became Uriel
Can you elaborate on this?
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Can you elaborate on this?
We have seen in Skin Game that Uriel’s grace has some things in common with mantles. What would have happened if Uriel without grace had died?
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We have seen in Skin Game that Uriel’s grace has some things in common with mantles. What would have happened if Uriel without grace had died?
Is your theory that Uriel wasn't always Uriel? That someone else might have once held that role?
I'll allow that certainly is possible. But do you have any further theories on who or what once held that mantle? Anything from the text or WOJ to indicate that idea? I grant you it's an intriguing idea. But I don't know that I have seen anything to hint to that actually having happened, despite the fact that perhaps it could. Not trying to sound harsh here, I hope that's clear. :)
It's just a very unusual idea. The only thing I have found is an old post about a WOJ (that I cannot actually find) that said that Uriel might simply believe himself to be a being called Uriel who is an Archangel, not that he is. Something to do with how human belief makes that possible.
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Anduriel was the previous Uriel it's all in the name which we know is Important because uriel freaked when called Uri by Harry. Lash also mentions Harry Naming thing.
Anduriel means literally Anti-Uriel
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We have seen in Skin Game that Uriel’s grace has some things in common with mantles. What would have happened if Uriel without grace had died?
The world would have had to deal with two Archangels named Michael, it would have been awkward.
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The world would have had to deal with two Archangels named Michael, it would have been awkward.
Or or Michael would take the name Uriel with the mantle Grace.
Mantle and grace look similar but we do not know exactly what the differences and similarities are. However how Uriel manifests on this world and what he can do has a lot to do with the stories told and is probably dependent on who interacts with him from what culture.
So I think there is a possibility we had earlier Uriel's. Uriel himself as a name used for interaction with mortals is relatively new and the story of what (arch) angels are is also relatively new, say a few thousand years. And it changes continuously.
Even the white god himself could be in his second or third bearer. His power as manifested on this earth certainly fluctuated but he had probably also other mantles.
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The world would have had to deal with two Archangels named Michael, it would have been awkward.
I suspect it would be the opposite. Uriel's grace would swallow him much like anyone who became Mab would eventually lose all their humanity and become just like the previous Mab.
Michael would cease to exist, and Uriel would be back, but there would be this tiny piece of Michael there. Michael's soul would be like a grain of sand on the beach that is Uriel.
Or or Michael would take the name Uriel with the mantle Grace.
here is what I think the difference is. A Mantle is constructed while the Grace has always been. Kind of like when Harry compared Mab to HWWBefore... The Grace is much deeper, real, while a Mantle is a cheap knockoff by comparison.
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I suspect it would be the opposite. Uriel's grace would swallow him much like anyone who became Mab would eventually lose all their humanity and become just like the previous Mab.
Michael would cease to exist, and Uriel would be back, but there would be this tiny piece of Michael there. Michael's soul would be like a grain of sand on the beach that is Uriel.
here is what I think the difference is. A Mantle is constructed while the Grace has always been. Kind of like when Harry compared Mab to HWWBefore... The Grace is much deeper, real, while a Mantle is a cheap knockoff by comparison.
Mantles come in various shapes and sizes but we mainly have seen weaker mantles and one extremely strong grace so that makes comparison difficult.
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I suspect it would be the opposite. Uriel's grace would swallow him much like anyone who became Mab would eventually lose all their humanity and become just like the previous Mab.
Michael would cease to exist, and Uriel would be back, but there would be this tiny piece of Michael there. Michael's soul would be like a grain of sand on the beach that is Uriel.
here is what I think the difference is. A Mantle is constructed while the Grace has always been. Kind of like when Harry compared Mab to HWWBefore... The Grace is much deeper, real, while a Mantle is a cheap knockoff by comparison.
Was mostly paraphrasing the woj on it.
In Skin Game Uriel becomes a mortal and gets to trade places with Michael, what would have happened if he died? What would happen to his power?
If Uriel had died /somebody/ was going to be holding his grace, well it looks like you've got the job. And that would just be confusing because then there would be two Michaels that are archangels. "Michael the warrior and Michael the carpenter" "Carpenter, you mean like Jesus?" "No not the same guy". So it's probably a good thing it worked out the way it did.
You're probably right about it eroding Michael until it's basically Uriel again though.
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If I had to guess I'd say it goes - Outsider/Old One war, War in Heaven, Titan/gods war.
Seems likely. Although from the context in SG of talking about wars fought before the earth even existed, I would take it that particular comment was referring to the Old Ones and the Fallen rebellion ... I think any conflict with the pagan pantheons would have been after.
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Seems likely. Although from the context in SG of talking about wars fought before the earth even existed, I would take it that particular comment was referring to the Old Ones and the Fallen rebellion ... I think any conflict with the pagan pantheons would have been after.
Agreed. Unless of course the pagan gods were involved somehow in one or both of those wars (Outsider War and War in Heaven). Which I think is quite possible, especially the Outsider War, considering some of those pagan gods existed before Creation and might have just as much reason to see Creation protected or destroyed (depending on their alignment).
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Agreed. Unless of course the pagan gods were involved somehow in one or both of those wars (Outsider War and War in Heaven). Which I think is quite possible, especially the Outsider War, considering some of those pagan gods existed before Creation and might have just as much reason to see Creation protected or destroyed (depending on their alignment).
Which is likely. There are other creation myths and they all are true income way.
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Was there a war with the Outside? I thought Jim said when TWG created reality he made it so that the Outsiders could not enter without a mortal invitation. That doesn't sound like a war but TWG telling them what they could and couldn't do.
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Was there a war with the Outside? I thought Jim said when TWG created reality he made it so that the Outsiders could not enter without a mortal invitation. That doesn't sound like a war but TWG telling them what they could and couldn't do.
There are myths about the dragon that had to be defeated before creation could even begin. Marduk defeated Tiamat and created heaven and earth from its body. It could be that the outsiders first had to be driven back before creation could even begin.
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Was there a war with the Outside? I thought Jim said when TWG created reality he made it so that the Outsiders could not enter without a mortal invitation. That doesn't sound like a war but TWG telling them what they could and couldn't do.
Yes and no. We know the Old Ones ruled reality and were kicked out and/or locked up. There's a WOJ that the Outsiders were told to stay out but mortals could invite them in. There is also a WOJ about how the Outsiders hate Creation because it is so bright and noisy. Finally, there is one about how the Outsiders are always the Outsiders and just look different depending on what universe they are trying to get into.
I'd say there was a pretty big chance they fought to get in originally and the separation of Light from the Dark and chaos of Outside was probably an allegory for that.
Power has purpose after all. Why did TWG need all those angels to begin with? Why did he need archangels, one of which was a general? Why did he need one that was a Lightbringer? Seems to me that they were the original conflict. While the angels and archangels fought and protected Creation while TWG was Creating, I suspect the moment the lights switched on the Outsiders got upset.
Lucifer rebelled against TWG at the beginning of Creation. Per Jim, we know that part of this messing around is partially what caused the difference in Creation stories. Apparently this is also when the star born thing started. Why and how could Lucifer rebel? Well, all angels (including the archangels) must have had enough free will to do that. But why do it at all? Jim has said that Lucifer is in an argument with God (this is from an obscure WOJ from a FB group) and that the argument has bent the universe out of shape, but it also limits Lucifer because he still wants a universe. He doesn't want to blow it up.
So my take is that Lucifer didn't agree with mortals having Free Will and endangering Creation. His core purpose was likely to defend Creation. So he sees mortals as a HUGE threat because they can invite Outsiders in. So everything he does is about proving that point, that mortals and Free Will are a bad mix. Now I might be wrong but I think I am pretty close.
There are myths about the dragon that had to be defeated before creation could even begin. Marduk defeated Tiamat and created heaven and earth from its body. It could be that the outsiders first had to be driven back before creation could even begin.
Pretty much.
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I think Uriel was referring to the War in Heaven/vs the Fallen primarily, but I'm sure he's worked against Outsiders too.
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Just an opinion but I do think that all Angels are by definition Starborn.
Michael as evidence was taking them on as a Knight, and won or at least defended against them long enough to rescue the wizards who's magic wasn't effective.