ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on September 17, 2017, 12:04:26 AM
-
I have a more specific question I'm seeking an answer to. So I'd like to get some opinions from the group mind. This is about Mab personally killing a mortal rather than sending her Knight to do the job. In Summer Knight we get this exchange between Bob and Harry:
"A Sidhe Knight is mortal," Bob said. "A champion of one of the Sidhe Courts. He gets powers in line with his Court, and he's the only one who is allowed to act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe."
"Meaning?"
"Meaning that if one of the Queens wants an outsider dead, her Knight is the trigger man."
I frowned. "Hang on a minute. You mean that the Queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"
"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to trade a baby for - "
"Off topic, Bob. Do I or don't I have to worry about getting killed this time around?"
"Of course you do," Bob said in a cheerful tone. "It just means that the Queen isn't allowed to actually, personally end your life. They could, however, trick you into walking into quicksand and watch you drown, turn you into a stag and set the hounds after you, bind you into an enchanted sleep for a few hundred years, that kind of thing."
Of course Bob doesn't know everything. He thought the Summer Knight does the same job for Titania that the Winter Knight does for Mab. So here is what I'm wondering about. Mab was furious about her daughter being tainted by Nemesis. Lea told Harry she went gonzo on the Red Court at Chicken Pizza because Lea owed them payback for Bianca giving her such a "treacherous gift." However, I'm mostly concerned with Mab here.
So if Mab became aware that a pair of mortal wizards handled the item which tainted Maeve through Lea, how far would she be allowed to go to seek vengeance against them, assuming it could be proven that at least one of them was part of the plot to taint Lea? While it was done in a stealthy manner, I would say that giving Lea the tainted Athame was a direct attack against the Winter Court and therefore it would be considered to be an act directly concerned with the Sidhe. Do you think Mab would need to tell Harry to kill the people involved or could she could do the job herself, and not just indirectly by turning Cowl into a stag and setting the hounds after him; which now that I think about sounds like something Lea might do.
I'm assuming if Lea found out first she wouldn't need Harry or anyone else to seek vengeance for her, though Cowl might be a handful for Lea to deal with on her own. Discus.
-
She probably wouldn't need to tell Harry to do it, but she probably would anyway- and find herself somewhat nonplussed when Harry is, (for the first time ever) actually on board with her.
"Soo... you want me to kill Cowl?"
"Correct."
"Sure"
"..."
"What?"
"It is nothing my Knight."
"You're mad that you don't have to use whatever elaborate blackmail scheme you came up with to force me into this aren't you?"
-
I have a more specific question I'm seeking an answer to. So I'd like to get some opinions from the group mind. This is about Mab personally killing a mortal rather than sending her Knight to do the job. In Summer Knight we get this exchange between Bob and Harry:
"A Sidhe Knight is mortal," Bob said. "A champion of one of the Sidhe Courts. He gets powers in line with his Court, and he's the only one who is allowed to act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe."
"Meaning?"
"Meaning that if one of the Queens wants an outsider dead, her Knight is the trigger man."
I frowned. "Hang on a minute. You mean that the Queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"
"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to trade a baby for - "
"Off topic, Bob. Do I or don't I have to worry about getting killed this time around?"
"Of course you do," Bob said in a cheerful tone. "It just means that the Queen isn't allowed to actually, personally end your life. They could, however, trick you into walking into quicksand and watch you drown, turn you into a stag and set the hounds after you, bind you into an enchanted sleep for a few hundred years, that kind of thing."
Of course Bob doesn't know everything. He thought the Summer Knight does the same job for Titania that the Winter Knight does for Mab. So here is what I'm wondering about. Mab was furious about her daughter being tainted by Nemesis. Lea told Harry she went gonzo on the Red Court at Chicken Pizza because Lea owed them payback for Bianca giving her such a "treacherous gift." However, I'm mostly concerned with Mab here.
So if Mab became aware that a pair of mortal wizards handled the item which tainted Maeve through Lea, how far would she be allowed to go to seek vengeance against them, assuming it could be proven that at least one of them was part of the plot to taint Lea? While it was done in a stealthy manner, I would say that giving Lea the tainted Athame was a direct attack against the Winter Court and therefore it would be considered to be an act directly concerned with the Sidhe. Do you think Mab would need to tell Harry to kill the people involved or could she could do the job herself, and not just indirectly by turning Cowl into a stag and setting the hounds after him; which now that I think about sounds like something Lea might do.
I'm assuming if Lea found out first she wouldn't need Harry or anyone else to seek vengeance for her, though Cowl might be a handful for Lea to deal with on her own. Discus.
Bob may have over stated what Mab could do too.... Maeve for example who is quite vindictive needed a mortal to screw up directly. Notice she tried to trick Harry into sleeping with her but didn't do something to trick him into trying, like making herself look like a different woman.
-
Bob may have over stated what Mab could do too.... Maeve for example who is quite vindictive needed a mortal to screw up directly. Notice she tried to trick Harry into sleeping with her but didn't do something to trick him into trying, like making herself look like a different woman.
That would be lying... ::)
And that rule as it's explained should only apply to people not affiliated with the courts or bargaining with them. Mab can't choose to kill a mortal, but if a mortal offers sufficient insult can she not take what is due? ???
-
That would be lying... ::)
As Jim has stated about Mab, she cannot lie but she can be mistaken. Same can be said for Bob.
Mab can't choose to kill a mortal, but if a mortal offers sufficient insult can she not take what is due? ???
No.... For the same reason Molly cannot sleep with someone no matter how horny she is... Mab is bound. Haven't seen a single instance of Mab actually doing what Bob suggested she can do.
-
As Jim has stated about Mab, she cannot lie but she can be mistaken. Same can be said for Bob.
That hass no linearity to the idea glamouring yourself as say, someone's spouse wouldn't be a lie so.. try to respond to which I said and not me?
No.... For the same reason Molly cannot sleep with someone no matter how horny she is... Mab is bound.
uh... actually Aurora proves this by trying to kill Harry outright while being un8able to hurt mundane officer Murphy. Haven't seen a single instance of Mab actually doing what Bob suggested she can do.
So? What's that to if she CAN do something to if we've actively seen it, have we seen something against it?
-
actually Aurora proves this by trying to kill Harry outright while being un8able to hurt mundane officer Murphy.
Harry was an agent of Winter
-
She probably wouldn't need to tell Harry to do it, but she probably would anyway- and find herself somewhat nonplussed when Harry is, (for the first time ever) actually on board with her.
Not once it's revealed that Cowl is really Harry's time-traveled alternate dimension-hopping grandson through Maggie and Simon, who is currently living in the body of Justin DuMorne after Kemmler body-swapped him.
That's the current theory, yes?
-
One other note. If Mab is going especially far for her, being unable to kill someone is going to be not much of a problem for her. If anyone knows about fates worse than death, it's her.
Using Bob's original description, she can do things to a person that would then make them beg to have her kill them all on her own. If she can turn them into something cervine, she can have them non-fatally have all their nerve endings grow through the skin, or whatever.
-
Actually when you think about it, Mab will go quite far.. Consider Skin Game, it was all about revenge and pay back for Nic for what he did to Marcone, one of the signers of her Accords. Now on one hand you can argue that Nic isn't a mortal, but that only holds true for as long as he holds a Coin and the Noose.. Take them away and he becomes an ordinary mortal.. He can be killed, it might take a Holy Sword to do it or perhaps strangulation with the noose he wears, but if he can be killed, he is a mortal.. So when you consider the elaborate years in the making plans that she and Marcone set up to get their revenge, yes, she will go quite far.
-
Harry was an agent of Winter
yea that's what I said, bargaining and meddling in court affairs. Contacting fairie directly, ect. as apposed to doing your lawful job without any such ties.
-
The other thing is questions of what counts as "involvement" with the court.
She can't just whack entirely unrelated people, but if you've done something that warrants her wanting revenge on you that badly, we're talking something more than just inhibiting her plans. Which may include some other type of involvement.
-
She probably wouldn't need to tell Harry to do it, but she probably would anyway- and find herself somewhat nonplussed when Harry is, (for the first time ever) actually on board with her.
I'm sure Harry would love to punch Cowl's ticket, but I'm not sure he's capable even with his gains since their last confrontation.
-
I'm sure Harry would love to punch Cowl's ticket, but I'm not sure he's capable even with his gains since their last confrontation.
We don't know who Cowl is yet.... It could be that when Harry finds out, he may not want to punch his ticket.
-
Or... he only finds out the identity after.
Remember, Jim doesn't enjoy torturing his characters, he enjoys torturing us.
-
Not once it's revealed that Cowl is really Harry's time-traveled alternate dimension-hopping grandson through Maggie and Simon, who is currently living in the body of Justin DuMorne after Kemmler body-swapped him.
That's the current theory, yes?
Simon? As in Simon Pietrovich? That's dumb. Everyone knows that it's Dresden's grandkid through Maggie and time-travelling Steed.
-
The other thing is questions of what counts as "involvement" with the court.
She can't just whack entirely unrelated people, but if you've done something that warrants her wanting revenge on you that badly, we're talking something more than just inhibiting her plans. Which may include some other type of involvement.
I'm not sure Bob was even aware of Nemesis when he explained the Knight's role to Harry in terms of assassinating people the Queens couldn't touch for lack of "involvement" with Sidhe affairs, either. Which makes it difficult to definitely address whether spreading it counts as "involved".
-
I think the real question is, what does "Attached" to one of the fae courts mean, when it comes to the Queen being able to do anything to them.
-
Or... he only finds out the identity after.
Remember, Jim doesn't enjoy torturing his characters, he enjoys torturing us.
Ooh yeah that's true... Kills cowl, removes the mask *gasp*, *tears streaming down his cheeks* "why?" "WHY!?"
-
What we know or can be fairly certain about
* If you attack Mab directly, she can kill you.
* If you are a random mortal, she can use her knight to kill you - but is unlikely to do so unless she has a reason.
* We do know that Aurora was able to attack Murphy ineffectually with the plant monster. Enough to cause some bruises perhaps, but nothing more.
* We also know that the same restrictions apply to any agent Mab directs to harm you.
Speculation
* I think the restrictions on her actions are quite severe or she would not need a knight. if all it takes is some illusion to manufacture a token offensive action against Mab, that would be child play for Mab to arrange.
* Equally sure, Mab can do all sorts of bad stuff to you that is NOT prohibited by this stricture. Things like imprisoning you for a thousand years in a block of ice... Yet that too seems a significant loophole. I wonder if Mab's actual restrictions are much more than simply a limit against killing a mortal.
* Ditto with selecting an agent which is likely to harm you "on their own" Seems a huge loophole.
My own personal feeling is that the actual restriction is much broader than simply killing someone. I think Mab is prohibited from harming directly or even somewhat indirectly any mortal that does not "choose" to involve themselves in fey business. This includes her taking actions that are likely to result in harm, even if she does not direct it. However, she is allowed to create conditions where an enemy feels motivated to attack or harm Mab in some way. But they must be in the wrong, not Mab.
-
Not to pick nits (but then again, isn't that why we're here?) but didn't the Chlorofiend really try to avoid Murphy. And any bumps or bruises we know of came from, for instance, Harry dumping out the marbles?
-
Not to pick nits (but then again, isn't that why we're here?) but didn't the Chlorofiend really try to avoid Murphy. And any bumps or bruises we know of came from, for instance, Harry dumping out the marbles?
Yea that was my point earlier. iirc the chlorofiend was Aurora's construct from what Harry Thinks, which that would confirm imo. It's inability to assault Murphy was because she was simply being mortal Murphy, Officer at law, maker of Choices.
-
Yea that was my point earlier. iirc the chlorofiend was Aurora's construct from what Harry Thinks, which that would confirm imo. It's inability to assault Murphy was because she was simply being mortal Murphy, Officer at law, maker of Choices.
Sorry, I was replying to dspringer1's post.
-
* Ditto with selecting an agent which is likely to harm you "on their own" Seems a huge loophole.
Somebody put the Hobs on a collision course with Ivy. And I don't see how it suits Nemfected Maeve to try to kill her off before Nemfected Tessa / Rosanna / Namshiel (or some combination of the three) got a chance to subvert Nic's plan and seize her for their own interests. Mab outright said the enemy could not be allowed to gain the child archive's power.
-
Sorry, I was replying to dspringer1's post.
....So... i'm not 'allowed' to reply to yours in tandem lol?
-
Somebody put the Hobs on a collision course with Ivy. And I don't see how it suits Nemfected Maeve to try to kill her off before Nemfected Tessa / Rosanna / Namshiel (or some combination of the three) got a chance to subvert Nic's plan and seize her for their own interests. Mab outright said the enemy could not be allowed to gain the child archive's power.
I don't know that Mab would be foolish enough to send a bunch of useless Mooks after the friggin Archive though.
That's kinda like sending a bunch of Ants to fight a Foot.
-
Somebody put the Hobs on a collision course with Ivy. And I don't see how it suits Nemfected Maeve to try to kill her off before Nemfected Tessa / Rosanna / Namshiel (or some combination of the three) got a chance to subvert Nic's plan and seize her for their own interests. Mab outright said the enemy could not be allowed to gain the child archive's power.
I believe the Archive is a signatory to the Unseelie Accords, which means that at some point, that entity made a deal with Mab.
-
Not to pick nits (but then again, isn't that why we're here?) but didn't the Chlorofiend really try to avoid Murphy. And any bumps or bruises we know of came from, for instance, Harry dumping out the marbles?
You are right of course. All of the serious injuries came from the ghoul (who was Ace's agent) or harry himself. Whatever injuries the chlorofiend inflicted were very minor and almost certainly immaterial.
-
Separate question.
Murphy took a chain saw to the chlorofiend and it hurt Aurora -- clearly she felt a lot of pain from the (iron assisted) attack. However, I do not recall the chlorofiend suddenly being able to target Murphy freely after this point.
Why would attacking an Aurora possessed plant creature not constitute involving herself in faerie? I had always assumed that attacking a queen freed them up to counter-attack. But this example proves me wrong (if I am remembering it correctly at least).
I am not sure myself, so I think I am missing something.
-
Separate question.
Murphy took a chain saw to the chlorofiend and it hurt Aurora -- clearly she felt a lot of pain from the (iron assisted) attack. However, I do not recall the chlorofiend suddenly being able to target Murphy freely after this point.
Why would attacking an Aurora possessed plant creature not constitute involving herself in faerie? I had always assumed that attacking a queen freed them up to counter-attack. But this example proves me wrong (if I am remembering it correctly at least).
I am not sure myself, so I think I am missing something.
I would say it's because she wasn't attacking the Queen. She was attacking something the Queen was animating. Further she didn't know it was the Queen.
Lastly, it's entirely possible that Aurora's Nemfection just didn't let her think along those lines.
-
I would say it's because she wasn't attacking the Queen. She was attacking something the Queen was animating. Further she didn't know it was the Queen.
Lastly, it's entirely possible that Aurora's Nemfection just didn't let her think along those lines.
Again, she wasn't just attacking a queen, she was acting with lawful authority. Note the Gruffs never hold it against her she threatens them with hot iron.
*This IS to you, and him too.... This is a forum of general convo(So if the problem is desire for a private convo try the PM feature). Seems I have trouble showing logical facts to be digested even when I directly state them.