Would you give a +1 bonus to Fists attacks to a mortal with Might 5 and Fists 4?Subject to the same limits I mentioned before? Certainly. Although in that case, a more appropriate stunt might be one that just shifts the attack trapping from fists to might.
PS: Compels are not bad things, so using them as a balancing factor seems like a bad idea to me. Sorry, wyvern, I had to say it.
Once the actual punch has connected with the target, here is where having a high strength is beneficial, but this is already covered under the trapping Hammer Blows under Inhuman Strength for +2.
Hard to parry - Same argument as above, it makes no sense for someone with 0 might to be able to parry someone with mythic strength,Got to disagree with you there. All that force in attempt to hit someone is being focused in one direction. If one manages to hit the limb in question from an angle rather than head-on then there is no force being exerted to prevent the blow from being deflected. Also, the existence of combat techniques like those in judo which take advantage of an attacker's force and uses it against them is another way someone weaker can parry someone who is stronger.
If two characters with Superb Fists are not equally strong, then the weaker one is more skilled (or maybe faster, etc) than the stronger one.
Because they are both equally good at punching. Strength is a part of that, and so if someone is equally good at punching but less strong then that means he has some other quality that compensates.
(My interpretation.)
A character with Mythic Strength facing an opponent who tries to parry his attacks has a good justification for a Might Declaration right there. That would provide the desired situational advantage.
Alternately, you could make a stunt or power that causes your melee attacks to count as ranged attacks when determining what skill can be used to defend. I wouldn't expect any balance problems, given that you could accomplish the same effect by using a thrown weapon.
Have hard time seeing someone parrying a steam train or a dragons claw, Someone with mythic Strength can throw cars and hit with the force of rocket launcher (6 shifts), A fist attack with mythic strength has more force than a car travelling at 50mph (weapons 5) and s weapon used by someone with mythic strength is more powerful still I just can't see a normal person having the force to deflect those sort of blows (easier to parry a car).
I think that applying the inhuman strength modifier to fists or might makes sense when one is doing a MANEUVER, but not when doing a strike. That way, someone who is really strong may be able to connect with some maneuvers where they would not with just their strikes, and then tag the maneuvers in order to hit with their strikes.
And the "it hurts to block" thing is correct, in my experience.
Do note that parrying with weapons does not only mean blocking the enemy weapon. It can mean a small redirection enough to foul his aim. It may also mean press against his weapon so that you move out of the way or even take advantage of that extra momentum in your own attack. Direct blocking, while the most often used parrying technique, is neither the smartest thing to do nor the most effective. It is simply the least complicated and thus easiest to learn.
While this may matter at inhuman levels of strength when you get beyond this that argument ceases to have any real importance at supernatural strength you have the same force as a speeding car in your attacks (perhaps a slight exaggeration) and at mythic strength you have the same force as a speeding truck. Now I ask you this how exactly would you parry a blade moving with the same force as a speeding car (we are probably talking about a blade moving way in access of over 100 miles an hour hear) the momentum alone would be hard to divert at human levels of strength. It is actually the speed boost that super strength implies for weapons that makes me think that the might bonus should add to weapons roll, faster attacks are both harder to dodge and too parry.
[-2] Inhuman Strength
[-2] Supernatural Toughness with +2 catch
[-1] Evasion: use Athletics for defense against magic and energy attacks
[-1] Monk AC: when unarmored and unencumbered, +2 to your Dodge trapping
[+1] Human Form modifying
[-2] Inhuman Speed
[-1] Flight (glowy aura instead of wings)
[-1] Gauntlets of Talos (IoP)
. . It is What It is: heavy meteoric iron spiked gauntlets. w2 for fists
. . Olympic Might: raise strength by 1 rank (normal to inhuman, or inhuman to supernatural, or supernatural to mythic)
. . True Aim
Round 1:
a) Awesome Gal activates inhuman speed as a supplemental (if she hasn't already) then aims as a normal action
b) Evocator hits Awesome Gal for 8 stress.
Round 2:
a) Awesome Gal, seeing she's facing a big wizardly type and needs to neutralize him fast, smashes the evocator's staff using her huge bonus for smashing things! She rolls at +6 for supernatural strength, +4 for her normal strength, +2 for aiming, maybe +2 for a fate point if she doesn't roll well enough. She smashes the staff even through the evocator's puny block!
b) Evocator shoots his now control-5 evocation and misses.
Round 3:
a) Awesome Gal lifts off the ground and acheives "perfect balance" in thin air.
b) Evocator uses his FP and a good roll for a +9 attack +8 power and Awesome Gal tags "perfect balance" to raise her defense to +10. Odds are she avoids it but at worst she takes a mild consequence.
Round 4:
a) Seeing she's a bit hurt, Awesome Gal uses her speed's free move (plus supplementals if required) to position herself in the desired location (and readies to use that speed again - but the Evocator doesn't know that)
b) Evocator "focuses" so he gets a bonus to control so he can use more power on his next spell.
Round 5:
a) Awesome Gal just sits there, waiting for the next attack (still readying)
c) Evocator rolls well, tags Awesome Gal's consequence and his "focused" aspect to nova at Control 11 Power 13 (mild mental and 2 backlash taken). Awesome Gal uses her readied action to superspeed-move around a building corner, behind a tree or other cover that can take the hit instead of her (having positioned herself right after she was hurt and expecting a nova). With 7 zones movement she could even move out of the evocator's sight completely. Thus she dodges the nova.
Comparable refresh Non-Optomised Evocator BuildAre you using a custom template? I don't see how you get 10 accuracy without specializations from those retirements, and a Focused Practitioner (Pyromancy) can't have them.
Pyromancy [-2]
Ritual Enchanted Items [-2]
5 Refinement [-5]
Ends up with 10 accuracy, 8 power fire castor with 10 strength block enchanted item 8 times a session , who rolling equal with your character will take her out in four turns with consequences (considering your defense is 8 so he cause 8 stress each turn given equal numbers) in none if which you will hit him because his defense beats your attack by 4 shifts.
Anyone using an optomised Psychomancy wizard build could take her out in one or two hits without much problem.
3. Logically, Strength kinda has to make a sword swing faster unless you twist the physics a bit.
1) You cannot make a block against defense rolls. You may trick people into not making defense rolls but actually preventing them from doing so is not allowed. So even if you block her athletics, she still gets her normal defense - though she doesn't have to (see below)
Irrelevant, I think.
We agree that a character with Strength can emit more kinetic energy, right?
And that extra energy doesn't come from extra mass.
So I think my point still stands.
Though I freely admit I might not understand what you are saying.
Simple circles only count as threshold 1 according to the book they would not be enough to stop that spell oribus is 4 power where as the other block would be 12-14 a whole different kettle of fish. The block I suggested didn't take into account flight or digging but was meant to reduce the movement of an opponent to a few square feet.
1) Magic circles don't count as a threshold of 1 (where did you see this BTW?). They flat-out can't be crossed by magical energy. We've seen spells from casters of Dresden's power (power 8 or so) stopped cold by a hastily erected magic circle in the middle of combat.I run circles as a block. As any block, they may be set for a variety of different things and have a rating.
...it is not at all accurate according to the booksThe books are mixed on the subject. The most detailed conversation I remember is in Fool Moon. There Dresden discusses different possibilities and says some are harder than others...but he does seem to be describing blocks to me.
PS: %^#@ Orbius. This may or may not be relevant to the discussion, but whatever.I just had to quote this for my sig...
I'm beginning to believe that the root of this disagreement is that through a combination of houserules and favourable readings of the RAW ways and means has made wizards vastly more powerful than they normally are. Having done so, he worries that they are too powerful and looks for a way to balance other character types against them.I don't have a "balance" issue in game...the wizard typically throws around three to four shift spells.
1. I refuse to consider reactive blocks as part of wizard balance.If you'll reread my statement, I was stating both needed a defensive skill if reactive blocks were not allowed. In other words, targeting skills are equivalent unless you use reactive blocks.
2. Evocation has a lot of random weaknesses that you aren't mentioning. The consequences for fluffing a roll are much worse, and casting spells makes you more vulnerable to mental attacks. There's more, but it's not terribly important that I cover everything right now.Consequences for screwing up a roll are optional - backlash keeps the spell going and fallout doesn't hurt you. As for taking mental stress, you're correct. However...
3. The peripheral benefits of Strength and Speed are considerable. You seem to be ignoring them....you trade taking mental stress for the ability to make attacks, blocks, and maneuvers in all types of conflict - mental, physical, and social. Not to mention doing things which may be physically impossible...even for someone with extreme strength. With strength you can do anything related to application of force. With magic you can do anything you can imagine. Even duplicate everything someone with strength or speed can do...though for much shorter periods of time.
What these points add up to is this: it's not that simple. Evocation and physical powers are not precisely equivalent, but they are similar enough in power that they can compete more or less evenly. Changeling vs Wizard is a fairly fair fight.Perhaps...doesn't change my statement since I specifically used "I" and "we're" to refer to my preferences and the way my group plays.
Oh, and one other thing: this is not a cooperative game. It's normally played that way, but it could support PvP or solo play rather well. Nothing about the game is inherently cooperative except the genre.
I say you arm wrestle for it.As duels go, that seems relatively benign. But unless you have an internet arm wrestling app, we may have to settle for logic. ;)
But you (if I recall correctly) allow mental attacks with evocation, zone-wide attacks that don't hit the user, omni-applicable magical grapples that stop defense rolls, veil-based auto-ambushes, and many other things that make wizards more powerful.
-Do you actually allow mental and social evocation attacks? If so, what I said to ways and means about houserules goes for you too.Hasn't come up yet, maneuvers are far more common. That said, mental and social attacks are a possibility...and I don't see what that has to do with house rules. Have I missed something in YS which limits evocation to the physical track?
-Fallout is totally bad for you.Yes?
-Magic does not provide the random physical benefits of Speed and Strength. No improved initiative, no superior movement, no superior Might modification.Every one of those can be duplicated (for a short period) via maneuvers. If you're willing to spend fate on temporary powers, they can be duplicated for longer periods by maneuver + fate.
@ways and means:
Not really interested in discussing the justifications for individual houserules/interpretations. My point is that by using them you alter the balance of the game. Do you agree with that?
In retrospect, "alter" was slightly slanted language. Sorry about that, I do try to be objective.
The meat of this discussion is in argument #2.
3. Accuracy and damage stunts become pointless for anyone who isn't mortal. By the rules that I currently use, they are a decent choice. Under this interpretation, they are not. If you don't think that this is bad, I can explain why it is (in my opinion).
PS: Would you also have Might modify defense rolls? How about defense rolls against ranged attacks for characters with Footwork?
Arm wrestling is probably best handled as a series of opposed Might rolls. Get a total threshold of 3 over your opponent and you win.
I think my Might is Average. I'm a young man and in fairly good shape, but I routinely get out-muscled by people who are actually strong.
First roll is -1, for a result of 0.
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3197692/ (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3197692/)
Alright then!
I no longer have any idea what we were arguing about.
PS: If the uselessness of Strength against blocks bugs you, you might want to look into changing the block rules. By the current RAW, a weapon -1 pellet gun is as effective against a forcefield as a weapon 6 anti-tank bazooka.
I have the Mas Oyama opinion of fighting "in an equal fight between two equally skilled opponents the stronger fighter will win". So it makes sense from my opinion to modify fist with might, it also makes sense in my opinion it also makes sense for a fist fighter with zero might to be at a disadvantage. You might argue disadvantage the ancient grandmaster but I reckon they would have stunts for fighting stronger opponents.
Murphs sparing in Ghost stories also seems to support that strength will be the determining factor between equally skilled opponents.
Inhumanly strong opponents already have an advantage: They deal more damage with each hit. If it's 50/50 as far as hits and misses go, might gives you an edge. You'll break your opponent before they can break you.
You don't need to add to this. It's silly.
For a normal person, they'll be in quite a lot of trouble when it comes to wrestling, which is where stronger opponents tend to take fights anyway.
I agree with what Becq said.
Having Might modify a combat skill ought to be an unusual occurrence.
Another good example might be a fight between two people who are chained to one another, where the stronger one can easily pull his opponent around.
@Buzzard: I suppose that could work too, but it seems complicated.
It's one of my stunts. Overcomplicate: Take a +2 to any Research roll when you can confuse at least one person with your explanation of how you're accomplishing a task.Hehe, combine that with the zone aspect, "It's the Internet!" and all kinds of complicating compels are possible...