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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on May 22, 2019, 11:47:02 PM
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Like it says on the tin...
Eb, for sure. Founder after all!
Harry, as a "junior" member.
Vadderung, almost certainly.
Rashid, I think.
Listens to Wind, I think.
Ancient Mai, I think.
Mab (if they can bring themselves to trust her enough; or identify sufficient risk-mitigation).
...
After that, I'm really unsure.
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I doubt Rashid is on it; he's probably too busy. And I doubt Mab is on it, both because I doubt they would trust her under normal circumstances and because I doubt that Harry was the only person Maeve tried to convince that Mab was crazy.
I could see Eldest Gruff being part of the Grey Council, though. And if the Merlin's not on it himself (which I don't believe he is) there's probably someone on it that reports to him, given the strike force in Changes and the Merlin's claim that he was going to see the Red Court wiped out.
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I can't imagine that all of Eb, Rashid, LtW, and Mai are on the Grey Council, because that would give them a majority on the Senior Council.
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If LTW is on the grey council there are more than 12 members. Eb told Harry he was out of commission at that time. Rashid is a maybe, Harry doesn't remark on any others being overly tall, and Rashid is taller than Harry.
I have a crazy thought though after going through changes recently, I think Arthur Langtree is a member. Officially he denies things, but he is too smart to not realize things are up so politically he needs to hold that line. Personally though he wants to hit back.
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We know that, when Changes rolled around, we had seen a total of six members of the Grey Council other than Eb, Harry, and Vadderung, at least according to Jim.
We know that Eb recruited GC members, so we have to think about it from his point of view. Otherwise excellent candidates for GC membership get ruled out because Eb isn’t inclined to recruit, say, vampires, or else I would have placed a bet on Lara Raith.
Listens to Wind, an otherwise excellent candidate, gets mostly ruled out because, as was pointed out earlier, he was out of commission in changes. I say “mostly” on the basis of it being totally possible we were lied to.
Rashid is a possibility, but I’m going to cast doubt on it: he’s too subtle to do something so overt as join a counterconspiracy. For similar reasons, I’m going to rule out Arthur Langtry.
I was previously placing bets on Lily, but Cold Days made that difficult to back up.
Obviously, we can rule out the Fellowship who joined Harry directly, unless they can be in two places at once.
If you held a gun to my head to place money on the table, closest I can do is Strength of a River in his Shoulders. He’s the only person I can think of who isn’t associated with people Eb wouldn’t touch with sufficient power to be on the Grey Council.
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We know that, when Changes rolled around, we had seen a total of six members of the Grey Council other than Eb, Harry, and Vadderung, at least according to Jim
Assuming that they're all spellcasters, what about:
1) Chandler
2) Eldest Gruff
3) Martha Liberty
4) Klaus Schneider
5) "Bluebeard"
6) Nicodemus (okay, he doesn't really qualify for the spell caster thing, but...)
If you held a gun to my head to place money on the table, closest I can do is Strength of a River in his Shoulders. He’s the only person I can think of who isn’t associated with people Eb wouldn’t touch with sufficient power to be on the Grey Council.
Doesn't he really object to fighting, though?
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Both Mab and Rashid can't be on the Grey Council because one of them has to be available at the Outer Gates when needed. Seeing as Rashid is often unavailable for ordinary Council works he must spend a large amount of time there.
Furthermore, Mab can't be a member of the Grey Council. It's not that her magical strength would probably have allowed her to obliterate any of the Lords of Outer Night, making them rather pointless; though that might be a good argument from a writing perspective. The real reason is Mab had to be available to defend her own realm. In Changes Mab might have had a shiny new Knight in Harry, but while he was rescuing his daughter Winter effectively didn't have a Knight. Mab also loaned out her most powerful vassal; Lea, to Harry, and Maeve being nemfected was at best worthless and at worst a threat to Winter in her own right. Mab needed to keep an eye on her daughter and probably keep her from finding out what was going on. This probably means that Rashid can't be member of the Grey Council either because if Mab is guarding Winter, that leaves Rashid on Gate duty. It doesn't rule him out completely, but I think it makes the Gate Keeper something of a long shot.
I used to believe that because it was stated the LTW became sick he couldn't be on the Grey Council. However, I believe we may discover some of the information we learned from Chandler's letters to Harry is false. (I'm not saying that Chandler is a liar, just some of the information he passed on to Harry was incomplete because Chandler wasn't fully clued-in to what was actually occurring.) LTW may have seen others getting sick and decided it was a good time for him to disappear for a while. There's no way to know this is the case, but it's a possibility I can't completely dismiss.
I won't be surprised if a few of the older Wardens; the ones that don't fully trust Harry, are on the Grey Council. Harry called them hard cases. They probably had a lot in common with Donald Morgan; but didn't have the personal connection to Arthur Langtry that Warden Morgan did. They sure as hell wouldn't have trusted Cristos' peace plan with the vampires. They would have joined the Grey Council because they trusted Eb, and were tired of seeing their numbers diminish with every battle against the Red Court. Even though they didn't fully trust Harry, once Peabody was unmasked as a traitor, a few of the older Wardens may have been impressed with the lengths Harry went to, to exonerate Morgan, even though he didn't succeed. The only older Warden we know by name; other than Captain Luccio, is Warden Thorsen, and he kept Harry from bleeding to death after his fight with Peabody. (That's right in the first sentence of Chapter 49 of Turn Coat.) So I think Thorsen; and maybe one or two other older Wardens, will be on the Grey Council.
What I can't figure out are the "key allies" that Ebenezer mentioned, other than Vadderung of course. The Erl King likes to do his own thing, hunting. There weren't any giant shadow hounds at Chicken Pizza, so that rules him out. Eldest Gruff? I suppose he has the ability, I'm just not seeing him being enough of a free agent to be a member, but maybe after the events of Small Favor he became concerned about the big picture and decided to become involved. How Eldest Gruff would know Ebenezer is another question, Eb has been around long enough for them to have met sometime in the past.
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I won't be surprised if a few of the older Wardens; the ones that don't fully trust Harry, are on the Grey Council. Harry called them hard cases. They probably had a lot in common with Donald Morgan; but didn't have the personal connection to Arthur Langtry that Warden Morgan did. They sure as hell wouldn't have trusted Cristos' peace plan with the vampires. They would have joined the Grey Council because they trusted Eb, and were tired of seeing their numbers diminish with every battle against the Red Court. Even though they didn't fully trust Harry, once Peabody was unmasked as a traitor, a few of the older Wardens may have been impressed with the lengths Harry went to, to exonerate Morgan, even though he didn't succeed. The only older Warden we know by name; other than Captain Luccio, is Warden Thorsen, and he kept Harry from bleeding to death after his fight with Peabody. (That's right in the first sentence of Chapter 49 of Turn Coat.) So I think Thorsen; and maybe one or two other older Wardens, will be on the Grey Council.
This makes sense.
Eldest Gruff? I suppose he has the ability, I'm just not seeing him being enough of a free agent to be a member, but maybe after the events of Small Favor he became concerned about the big picture and decided to become involved. How Eldest Gruff would know Ebenezer is another question, Eb has been around long enough for them to have met sometime in the past.
Well, we know that Eldest Gruff has had interactions with people high up in the White Council, because he's killed three Senior Council members. And given his personality, I can see him convincing people who saw or heard about those fights that they were necessary or that he just couldn't get out of doing it, and he was a good guy really.
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Somehow I doubt that Ancient Mai is on the Council, just a gut feeling about her.
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Vadderung, Lea and Mab, work together to get the GC to Chichen Itza. In Cold Days it is shown that Vadderung in one of his personas has a personal relationship with Eldest Gruff. They could be considered fellow travelers, sometimes throwing in when goals intersect.
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I am not seeing Eldest Gruff on the GC (or any other Faerie who isn't the head of their own Court). Any of them, even Eldest Gruff, could be commanded by their respective Queen(s) to spill GC secrets or even betray the GC utterly; AFAICT the Fae give their monarchs absolute obedience to any direct order, and that's too huge a security hole.
OTOH, I could see Eldest Gruff on the GC if Titania and/or Mother Summer was on it the GC.
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Goodman Grey..... Because his last name says so.
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I am not seeing Eldest Gruff on the GC (or any other Faerie who isn't the head of their own Court). Any of them, even Eldest Gruff, could be commanded by their respective Queen(s) to spill GC secrets or even betray the GC utterly; AFAICT the Fae give their monarchs absolute obedience to any direct order, and that's too huge a security hole.
OTOH, I could see Eldest Gruff on the GC if Titania and/or Mother Summer was on it the GC.
I don't see a formal structure to the GC. And common goals don't mean common agendas. Maybe a small council of peers. Mother Summer once asks Harry if he thought that Mab spent all of her time dealing with back stabbing courtiers. At least on the surface that would infer that the Fae all don't always dance to the tune of the Queens.
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I don’t think Fae can really join the Grey Council - as g33k points out, they are not free-willed enough to allow the GC to accomplish its goals in secrecy. Odin is shown to be a member, not Kringle. Also, most Fae aren’t allowed to meddle in mortal affairs without express cause - that’s what they have the Knights for.
I took the Grey Council to mean mortal, or mortal-ish wizards & their allies. Being able to go to fight at Chichen Itza last minute (they wouldn’t have come if Harry didn’t tell Eb that’s where he was heading a couple of hours before he got there) requires free will & an ability to act with impunity. Lea is only able to go because Mab gives her permission & because the Reds had insulted her by giving her the athame - there is a reason Mab doesn’t send a small army with Lea to assist Harry.
Therefore, the ones who make the most sense as being on the GC are the wizards Eb summons before the WC meeting in SK before Harry’s trial (since he trusts them) - Martha Liberty & Injun Joe. Odin is clearly a member as well. I think Chandler & Ramirez are too junior to be on it - Harry is likely the junior-most person on the GC (as far as he is on it).
@groinkick
I like that idea, although I’m sure he would’ve mentioned to Harry that he was at Chichen Itza (which would’ve made Harry trust him more). No reason he can’t join post-SG though.
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I am not seeing Eldest Gruff on the GC (or any other Faerie who isn't the head of their own Court). Any of them, even Eldest Gruff, could be commanded by their respective Queen(s) to spill GC secrets or even betray the GC utterly; AFAICT the Fae give their monarchs absolute obedience to any direct order, and that's too huge a security hole.
Not necessarily. If a faerie swears an oath not to reveal the Grey Council's secrets, I don't think even the Queens can make them break their word.
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@nadia
While that may be the case (as seen with the Lacuna/ Harry example in CD), imagine what would happen if a Queen puts a geas on the Fae in question - it would severely limit their ability to aid the GC.
Or maybe the Fae are not allowed to make oaths that would allow them to keep big secrets from their Queens. Not to mention, what if the Fae in question is on his/her Queens job when the GC needs their help? A mortal may be able to re-prioritize, it would be much harder for a Fae.
For this reason I think individual Fae may be tertiary allies of the GC, but not on it.
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While that may be the case (as seen with the Lacuna/ Harry example in CD), imagine what would happen if a Queen puts a geas on the Fae in question - it would severely limit their ability to aid the GC.
Or maybe the Fae are not allowed to make oaths that would allow them to keep big secrets from their Queens. Not to mention, what if the Fae in question is on his/her Queens job when the GC needs their help? A mortal may be able to re-prioritize, it would be much harder for a Fae.
All of your concerns would hold true for any member of the Grey Council who is also a member of another organization. Mortals "may be able to re-prioritize" but there's no reason to count on all of them doing so, and indeed no reason to assume that in every case they would be right to drop everything when the Grey Council says so. I mean, imagine what would have happened if Harry had done as he was ordered and joined the Grey Council for their meeting in Changes?
I think the Grey Council pretty much has to accept that the majority of their members are not, in fact, going to be on call 24/7, and that they have to work around that.
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@nadia
I guess it’s possible if the Fae in question is able to reconcile the goals of the Grey council with that of its Court & then wishes of the Queen. Given that we don’t really know what the full agenda of the Gray Council is, it’s hard to tell if someone like Eldest Gruff could be on it without violating one of Titania’s many rules (such as helping Harry - could a Summer Fae have shown up at Chichen Itza in Changes without violating Titania’s rule about Harry?)
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I guess it’s possible if the Fae in question is able to reconcile the goals of the Grey council with that of its Court & then wishes of the Queen. Given that we don’t really know what the full agenda of the Gray Council is, it’s hard to tell if someone like Eldest Gruff could be on it without violating one of Titania’s many rules (such as helping Harry - could a Summer Fae have shown up at Chichen Itza in Changes without violating Titania’s rule about Harry?)
True. I'm pretty sure it was stated that a major goal of the Grey Council was to oppose the Black Council, and since we now know that at least some of what was attributed to the Black Council was actually Nemesis, it seems natural to me that they would have a faerie or two working with them. I like Eldest Gruff for this both because he's a powerful wizard in his own right, and because he has been shown to be trusted by and able to influence Titania, so her interference with him is likely to be minimal.
But you're right, it depends on who knows what about Nemesis and what the Grey Council's other goals may be.
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... I like Eldest Gruff for this both because he's a powerful wizard in his own right, and because he has been shown to be trusted by and able to influence Titania, so her interference with him is likely to be minimal...
How about Big T as the "member" of the GC, but E.Gruff as her proxy, the one who "mostly" shows up, when showing-up is called for?
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How about Big T as the "member" of the GC, but E.Gruff as her proxy, the one who "mostly" shows up, when showing-up is called for?
Maybe. Although, going by Cold Days, Titania doesn't seem motivated to interfere with much of anything, so I'm not sure why she'd join, as opposed to going "Oh, fine, you can do it if it's so important," to Eldest Gruff.
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Maybe. Although, going by Cold Days, Titania doesn't seem motivated to interfere with much of anything, so I'm not sure why she'd join, as opposed to going "Oh, fine, you can do it if it's so important," to Eldest Gruff.
I don't think they'd have him.
He is subject to Summer's 3 Queen's, and I doubt ANY mortal could phrase an oath he could swear, that one of the Queens could not find a way to slither around.
Then there's the simple fact that he's part of Summer, and I bet at least the Queen Who Is and the Queen Who Was can just choose to BE anywhere E.Gruff is, no warding applies because part of her is already there.
ONLY the Queens themselves (among the fae) are free-enough from external command that a security-critical group like the GC could risk having them privy to top-level GC secrets & identities.
You may be right about Titania, her odd passivity and/or her hate-on for Harry. She may not care enough, or be willing to aid the mortal wizards.
Of course, E.Gruff could be working for the GC not _AS_ the GC but just "working with" a particular wizard (such as Eb or (eventually) Harry) who happens to be a GC member...
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He is subject to Summer's 3 Queen's, and I doubt ANY mortal could phrase an oath he could swear, that one of the Queens could not find a way to slither around.
But why would they want to? And why is it relevant? That's the point I'm trying to make.
I mean, you could just as easily say "I doubt any mortal wizard could beat Titania in a magic duel," but A) Titania's almost certainly not going to start magically attacking wizards without a good reason; and B) The possibility that she might do so (or that she might possibly acquire a reason) is not going to stop the Grey Council from having wizards on it.
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I don't think either the Summer or Winter Courts could join nor be permitted to join due to balance.
If you permit just Summer to join, Winter would most likely need to oppose and vice-versa if you permitted Winter to join instead.
That leaves an option of both joining but we haven't seen much cooperation ever out of them. In fact, they almost need to be opposed, per information we've received through the story. Mab exists to defend the gates. Titania exists to protect us from Mab. That Winter grossly outguns Summer but Titania can drag Mab down with her. That the Winter Knight exists to take out folks Mab can't and the Summer Knight is there to oppose him. Etc etc.
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But why would they want to? And why is it relevant? That's the point I'm trying to make.
If secrets are like crack cocaine for wizards, then for the Fae it is the very air they breathe. A Faerie Queen confronted with a mortal secret involving one of her courtiers??!? Not gonna stay secret for very long...
And any security-conscious group (of which the GC is a prime exemplar) is going to be HIGHLY averse to having a powerful, capricious creature like a FQ sticking her nose in because one of their Councilors is also in the Court of said FQ.
If they can induce one of the FQ's to join, then it becomes the secret of said FQ, and she'll protect it like she does all her secrets.
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I don't think either the Summer or Winter Courts could join nor be permitted to join due to balance.
If you permit just Summer to join, Winter would most likely need to oppose and vice-versa if you permitted Winter to join instead.
This is a valid point! OTOH, it's not like the GC is some cosmic-scale tipping-point...
It's a secret, largely political/investigatory sub-group of WC wizards (mostly; as noted, there may be other entities) trying to figure out the infiltration/betrayal of the WC by this "BC" or "Circle" or whoever they are -- and THAT group (the BC) in turn may be a group similarly centered around dissatisfied WC wizards.
In terms of Summer -v- Winter, it may look like a school-yard argument, as seen by business-executives in the office-building across the street.
The FQ's may not care about the "balance" involved in GC membership, because there's no effect.
Of course, that analogy also leaves them with a can't-be-bothered-to-join perspective, even if they got invited. Why would a business executive join a schoolyard clique???
That leaves an option of both joining but we haven't seen much cooperation ever out of them. In fact, they almost need to be opposed, per information we've received through the story. Mab exists to defend the gates. Titania exists to protect us from Mab. That Winter grossly outguns Summer but Titania can drag Mab down with her.
I wouldn't dismiss "dual" membership so readily.
First: recall that the most-potent Queens, the Mothers, apparently co-habit readily. I think Summer and Winter have shared interests (it remains to be seen whether the GC overlaps with such interests).
Second: even if they'd chafe, they wouldn't have to meet -- as I understand it, the GC has a "cell" structure, where GC members mostly only know other GC members in their own cell, and only Eb knows everyone (or maybe not even him). But there could be one cell with Summer and a different cell with Winter, with those 2 cells never meeting together...
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While the courts are unlikely to work in concert, they do work in the same direction. When Mab didn't declare war on the Red Court at the same time as Titania, everyone was surprised. Additionally, at the outer gates, the courts do work in concert.
My point is that it is possible for them to have the same goals and/or to work in concert; not that it is likely.
Also Vadderung is on the Grey Council. He's got some pretty strong fairy ties.
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If you permit just Summer to join, Winter would most likely need to oppose and vice-versa if you permitted Winter to join instead.
Not necessarily. When Mab allowed the White Council to use her Ways, Titania didn't send a bunch of Summer fae to prevent the wizards using them. When Summer launched an attack on the Red Court to help the White Council, Winter didn't launch an attack on the White Council to help the Red Court.
If secrets are like crack cocaine for wizards, then for the Fae it is the very air they breathe. A Faerie Queen confronted with a mortal secret involving one of her courtiers??!? Not gonna stay secret for very long...
Who's confronting them with secrets? Confronting in general seems like an awful way to keep something a secret. And Titania, like I said earlier, seems far too apathetic to interfere in stuff that doesn't make itself obvious.
And any security-conscious group (of which the GC is a prime exemplar) is going to be HIGHLY averse to having a powerful, capricious creature like a FQ sticking her nose in because one of their Councilors is also in the Court of said FQ.
Or is going to want to let the counselor in in the hopes of getting help from said faerie queen, even if this queen doesn't want to join.