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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: BrainFireBob on July 31, 2020, 04:42:54 PM
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Random bit.
Say there is a wizard with one of the “immortal” mantles.
Say said wizard is backed into a corner and uses a death curse.
Will the mantle re-form the wizard?
I am curious regarding Cowl in this regard.
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I don't think so. The death curse is something a wizard "throws" as he or she is dying, and dies.
Once the holder is dead, the mantle moves on, or is held like supposedly Alfred did, until a suitable
new holder showed up, Harry.
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Ugh reformed wizard, Harry Spam,
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I *think* it wouldn't work -- an immortal mantle holder wouldn't get to throw a death curse.
I *think* a death curse takes the burst of energy that accompanies a soul leaving for the afterlife (the burst of energy that can sometimes create a ghost) and uses it to power a magical spellform that the wizard prepares just before dying.
The "death" of an immortal shouldn't produce that burst of energy. (Although it might if they die at a conjunction, depending on how much soul they have left.)
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I *think* a death curse takes the burst of energy that accompanies a soul leaving for the afterlife
I don't think an actual soul is needed, since apparently Mavra could possibly use a death curse, and she wouldn't have a soul now.
I think a death curse is just using up all your energy to the point that you die (usually life energy, but for a BCV spellcaster like Mavra, the dark deathly energy that animates her body.)
Harry's heart stops briefly (until Michael saves him) after putting too much energy into a spell in GP. So I'm not sure a death curse is all that "special" except in its consequences; it might just be a more extreme version of powering a spell with your own energy.
So I would imagine that it might be possible, but the energy of the Mantle would be inaccessible. So Molly might be able to do a death curse, but it would be just the power level you would expect from Molly-the-wizard, not Molly-the-Winter-Lady.
I suppose there's also the possibility that the soul would pass on to the afterlife but then the Mantle would re-generate the being (so a Winter Lady that looked just like Molly would re-generate, but Molly's soul would be gone).
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Of course, we've learned that the soul is actually just a chunk of magical energy, too. So, perhaps wizards who cast death curses are actually consuming their own souls to cast the spell and ending up in oblivion, rather than moving on to the afterlife.
(We know that oblivion is possible, because in Ghost Story that was the risk Harry was facing.)
Not sure what to make of Eb's comment that Mavra might be able to throw one... No idea how BCVs work.
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COULD a wizard with a mantle throw a death curse? Depending on the mantle, most seem to have some kind of self preservation instinct going on to maintain the mantle. If throwing a death curse would cause problems, I can see the mantle actually preventing that from happening.
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Random bit.
Say there is a wizard with one of the “immortal” mantles.
Say said wizard is backed into a corner and uses a death curse.
Will the mantle re-form the wizard?
I am curious regarding Cowl in this regard.
Molly for instance, no longer uses mortal magic, cause cell phone. So no death curse.
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Of course, we've learned that the soul is actually just a chunk of magical energy, too.
I don't think it's quite that simple. Harry in GS is an unusual case for at least two reasons - he's in an odd state of being due to Uriel messing with things, and he has access to Soulfire.
If the soul was made of "regular" magical energy, I don't think Harry getting Soulfire from Uriel would be nearly as significant as it's treated as being. Bob talks about it like it's a totally new source to draw from.
Not sure what to make of Eb's comment that Mavra might be able to throw one... No idea how BCVs work.
I think Mavra draws on the same "dark" energy necromancers use.
(Harry says that Red Court vampire spellcasters do the same, in DB. Which is kind of odd, because RCVs aren't "undead" the way BCVs are. But it does fit the way Bianca's spells in GP are "dark-energy".)
As a BCV, Mavra is an "undead" animated corpse, presumably working off the same "dark energy". So if she used up all the energy animating her body, I think that would be the same as a living wizard burning all their "life force" in a death curse.
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Molly for instance, no longer uses mortal magic, cause cell phone. So no death curse.
I dunno.
The fact that Molly usually uses "Faerie power" and therefore doesn't hex electronics, IMO, doesn't necessarily mean that she can't use her "mortal wizard" magic.
Also, Mavra doesn't use mortal magic, and apparently she can do a death curse.
I think most non-mortals don't do death curses, as a general rule, because they don't expect to actually die. (Rather like Grevane.)
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I don't think it's quite that simple. Harry in GS is an unusual case for at least two reasons - he's in an odd state of being due to Uriel messing with things, and he has access to Soulfire.
He also didn't throw a death curse, most likely because he was only mostly dead.. Being a suicide might have something to do with it also, even if it was on a subconscious level, his memory being blocked.
I think Mavra draws on the same "dark" energy necromancers use.
Since she is more in the tradition of Dracula I believe she is one walking dead, I think that is very true.
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I don't think an actual soul is needed, since apparently Mavra could possibly use a death curse, and she wouldn't have a soul now.
I think a death curse is just using up all your energy to the point that you die (usually life energy, but for a BCV spellcaster like Mavra, the dark deathly energy that animates her body.)
Harry's heart stops briefly (until Michael saves him) after putting too much energy into a spell in GP. So I'm not sure a death curse is all that "special" except in its consequences; it might just be a more extreme version of powering a spell with your own energy.
I agree with your analysis as to what a death curse likely is.
I'd just like to point out that Mavra might not be able to throw a death curse, and we definitely don't know that she can.
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I agree with your analysis as to what a death curse likely is.
I'd just like to point out that Mavra might not be able to throw a death curse, and we definitely don't know that she can.
Yeah, it's not certain. BR also has that bit about the Black Court going back to the dawn of humanity, which we now know is way off.
But ... I'll have to re-read BR, but I think Harry and Eb discuss it. Even though we don't know the "magic mechanics" of a death curse in detail, Eb should. So if it were impossible in "magic mechanics" terms for a non-mortal to have a death curse, I think Eb would know that.
That still doesn't necessarily mean Mavra can (not sure Eb or Harry have a good gauge on how powerful she actually is; and there might be a difference between her being an actual full Council-level wizard who's now a BCV, vs. a sorcerer or other less skilled practitioner who's now boosted by "dark energy".)
But I'm pretty skeptical of it being just a mortal-wizard thing.
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I think Eb would know that.
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But I'm pretty skeptical of it being just a mortal-wizard thing.
The only time we've heard of a death curse happening is with mortal wizards. We've only heard it mentioned in relation to a non mortal with Mavra. Eb should know if he's at least heard of a non mortal using a death curse. Alternatively, he should know it's unlikely if he's never even heard of it.
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Eb was a bit sketchy all around in Blood Rites.
I mean, why the heck do you put the White Council's heaviest hitter on wheelman duty?
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He was supposed to lockdown Mavra’s magic as well.
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Yeah... and yet, she was still able to veil herself and take incriminating pictures. And mind control a vampire-doppleganger-equivalent through the whole fight.
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In that fight, they're taking a lot of risks to avoid collateral damage & save the humans captured by the vampires. Eb throwing around power would probably not help that goal.
Sure, Eb could have just flattened the whole building and annihilated everything, but Kincaid could have done that with explosives too.
Eb should know if he's at least heard of a non mortal using a death curse. Alternatively, he should know it's unlikely if he's never even heard of it.
Yeah. I re-read that part, and Eb brings it up in the first place, and acts like Harry should have thought of it already.
I think that implies there isn't a general "only mortal wizards get death curses" rule.
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A white Court vampire has a soul, if one were a wizard would their death curse include their Hunger?
I don’t really want to know, but I just want to send you all off into paroxysms of theorising. It’s fun to watch.
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A white Court vampire has a soul, if one were a wizard would their death curse include their Hunger?
I don’t really want to know, but I just want to send you all off into paroxysms of theorising. It’s fun to watch.
I believe Margaret figured that out.. She threw her death curse at Lord Raith, though he continues to live, he is starving because she did a number on his Hunger Demon.
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I am talking about a Whampire with a Wizard level talent, would the Hunger also power the curse?
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I am talking about a Whampire with a Wizard level talent, would the Hunger also power the curse?
I don't think we know enough about the nature of the Hunger to tell.
If the Hunger is a spiritual symbiote that dies when the Whampire dies, probably yes.
If the Hunger is a Nevernever spirit that is linked to the mortal world by the Whampire but goes back to the Nevernever when the Whampire dies (in the way a Hexenwolf's rage-spirit or a Denarian's Fallen or the Winter Knight's Mantle don't die when the host dies), then probably not.
If the Hunger is more like a "void" or "emptiness" that the Whampire is drawing on, it might not have the right sort of energy to use this way.
EDIT: Messed up quote tag
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If the Hunger is more like a "void" or "emptiness" that the Whampire is drawing on, it might not have the right sort of energy to use this way
Sort of, but that isn't exactly what Harry saw in the soul gaze with Thomas.. However that is what he
felt inside of Lord Raith in Blood Rites.