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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: 123456789blaaa on March 04, 2013, 07:33:18 PM

Title: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 04, 2013, 07:33:18 PM

I spoilered the initial theory because it's kind of big and I don't want people to miss my revisions:

(click to show/hide)

One thing thats been bugging me about CD is that Mab acts contrary to her Mantle. The Winter Queen is supposed to be cold, calculating, and rational. Yet she was unable to kill her own daughter? This does not compute. There is also a WoJ that supports me:

Quote

No free will ever?  Or no free will to disobey when commanded?  I don't know that it's possible to have intellect without will.  Well, then again, most of us have to make decisions about what is true, and what isn't, or what to remember and forget - but a spirit of intellect is mostly just a talking library, right?  A storehouse.  Although, Bob seems to also understand what he knows...  I'm getting over my head.


Well, I don't want to hand out too much outside the context of an actual story.  But within the context of the Dresden books, Bob isn't, like, an actual mortal person.

Mortals are the ones who have free will, the ability to choose what they're doing, to choose between right and wrong.  Without getting too thickly into the underlying philosophy, that's the thing that separates, for example, mankind from the angels--the angels didn't get the same kind of choice about their existance, and what they would do with it.  Mortals get the chance to make all kinds of decisions, and can change their minds, well, at will.  Other creatures, though they may look like people, don't get the same range of choices about who and what they will be.

Mab, for example, is Mab.  She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind.  It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it.  She simply isn't capable.  She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do.  It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well.  Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul.  You just stay what you are.

But that's getting way off the subject of Bob.  I mean, don't you think that if he had totally free will, he'd be out of the skull all the time, hitching rides in people's heads on their way into strip bars or something?  There's a reason he obeys Harry, and it's not purely because Harry offers him shelter from a gruesome demise. It's a part of who and what he is.


    Another question: Does Bob know everything all the time, or just know when he is asked a question?  Can he ask himself questions? (wouldn't that involve will?)


He doesn't know everything.  He knows a LOT.  There's a difference.  He's been alive for centuries and worked with a lot of different wizards, and he remembers absolutely everything he is exposed to.  He's an enormous source of information and practical experience, not a conduit to infinite knowledge.  He's got limits.  He can ask himself questions and attempt to extrapolate answers based upon what he knows, or by asking other spirits for answers, or by venturing out and seeking the answers himself, but he doesn't just pull knowledge out of nowhere.  He just LIKES having it, and getting more of it.  That's what he is.  He's innocent (more or less) of the whole question of good and evil.  His existance is focused on questions and answers, upon simply acquiring the knowledge, and that's that.

Which is not to say that he could never become anything more.  Especially if he hangs around with mortals a lot.  Mortals, in their own possession of free will, have a tendancy to influence beings who don't have it, in one way or another.  I suppose it's entirely possible, for example, that too much association with mortals are what changed Aurora, former Summer Lady, and gave her a determination to destroy the natural order in an effort to change its very nature--for the better, true, but it would never even have occurred to any of the other Queens, Mothers or Lady that such a thing might be, until it had already happened.  It isn't in their nature.

But perhaps I've said too much.  I'll shut up now.

Jim

EDIT: Wow I can't believe I forgot to post this one too:

Quote

<snip>
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old. 

As far as she's concerned, everyone and everything is expendable, including herself, when it comes to adhering to her (seemingly irrational and inexplicable) priorities. 

(And by the way--don't think Titania is much better.  When push came to shove, she let her own daughter be murdered rather than upset the balance of the Faerie Courts.  At least Mab is up front about it.  Usually.)

Sacrifice her best troops?  Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that's what she thought was appropriate.  And she wouldn't even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.

But no one does cold-blooded like the Queen of Winter.  Mab's been in the business a long time, she's got a balance sheet, and she is *not* going to come out in the red--
--unless, of course, she really *has* stripped a gear, as Lily and Maeve believe.  In which case there's a stark raving bonkers demigoddess whose powers are no longer being held in check by the Escher-esque code of Sidhe behavior.  And that's all kinds of bad.

But hey.  It's probably not that.  I mean, not *everything* that happens can be the absolute worst possible possibility, right?

Jim

How then is this possible? I see 3 options:

1) She was faking (unlikely to me since it would be very out of place and mood-breaking with Harry saying "and I never saw it again")

2) She was infected by Nemesis (also unlikely because the Outsiders would have broken in already and we'd be doomed)

or my personal favorite:

3) She became something more.

Lets look at the last paragraph of the WoJ:

Quote

Which is not to say that he could never become anything more.  Especially if he hangs around with mortals a lot.  Mortals, in their own possession of free will, have a tendancy to influence beings who don't have it, in one way or another.  I suppose it's entirely possible, for example, that too much association with mortals are what changed Aurora, former Summer Lady, and gave her a determination to destroy the natural order in an effort to change its very nature--for the better, true, but it would never even have occurred to any of the other Queens, Mothers or Lady that such a thing might be, until it had already happened.  It isn't in their nature.

My theory is that Mab lost her soul (hence the WoJ) and then gained it back afterwards.

But we're not done yet! See this quote from CD (now you know why I asked TCF  ;D):

Quote

She has spent too much time with mortals," Mother Winter continued, withered lips peeled back from iron teeth as the sparks from her cleaver's edge leapt higher. "Mortals in their soft, controlled world. Mortals with nothing to do but fight one another, who have forgotten why they should fear the fangs and the claws, the cold and the dark."

"And...that's bad?"

"What value has life when it is so easily kept?" Mother Winter spat the last word. "Mab's weakness is evident. Look at her Knight.

Sure this imply something different but we're dealing with freakin fairies!

Now we come to another WoJ:

Quote

The other question I had is, **unintelligible**…when a human takes on the mantle of a Fae, do they automatically become Fae? Do they lose their soul?

Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their **unintelligible**. But a lot of the other Fae who were there, including the Erl and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they  might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.

**Audience laughter**

But on the other hand, she’s kinda cool with that. She’s used to that role. So anyway, we’ll have to see what happens to her, but, uh, there’s a lot of choice involved **unintelligible** as far as soul goes. Everybody always talks about souls as if it’s something you can have a receipt for, that if you lose it, then it’s just gone, and I don’t think souls work that way, I think that there’s too much attached to them, I think that there are too many things that consist of what your soul is, so I don’t think this is kinda trying to figure “did you lose your soul?”, because I think you can lose your soul without bothering to stop by any kind of supernatural beings whatsoever. You know, if you watch the news, you’ll see people who do that all the time. But yeah, as far as The Dresden Files goes, as far as eternal damnation, etc., goes, no I don’t think that’s as much an issue for Molly as yet, it could sometime though. Whether Mab has some kind of spark of a soul left or not, that’s one of those questions that would be very difficult to answer, and I’m probably not smart enough to answer it. Probably, when you’ve gone so far down the road, just pure power is madness, it’s hard to hang on to your soul. And it depends on how people who have been handed all this extra stuff deal with it, and what that’s going to do for them in the long run. And it’s one of those long run kind of things, meaning you’re going to be stuck like that for 2,000 years, you don’t really have to go bad tomorrow, you have plenty of time yet to start growing mold on your conscience.

This implies that she may have kept a small spark of a soul instead of gaining one. I remind you that we are dealing with Jim:

Quote

Oh, man, /I/ wouldn't trust me, if I was reading me. I tell giant, complicated, long-term LIES for a living, man. People pay me to manipulate their emotions--to make them laugh and cry, to cheer for the good guys and to hate the bad guys. What kind of person /does/ that for a living? I'll tell you what kind: the shifty, devious, untrustworthy kind. Don't believe a word I say.

Now to be fair, I should also point you towards a section of CD (when MS and Harry are walking towards the Outer Gates) Where Harry is talking to MS and understands that "you need to have a heart for it to freeze". MS is talking about all of Winter in the conversation so this implies all of Winter still has a soul left (instead of gaining one). This also clicks perfectly with the above WoJ.

That's it. I know it's pretty shaky (especially with the KC signing WoJ) but I figured I'd post it anyways since I've been wanting to for so long (before the KC signing it seemed more solid. I actually formulated this WAG long ago, after CD had just come out. Procrastination is my biggest weakness  :-[)

EDIT 2: okay, so with the feedback from the thread so far, I'm revising my theory slightly.

When Mab became Winter Queen she "became the fun-loving Mab we know today": basically she made enough Choices over time that either her soul was extinguished or an extremely small barely glowing ember. For all practical purposes it doesn't matter since even if she did have the ember it wasn't enough to influence her decisions at all.

Then at some time (possibly beginning with Sarrisa) she began interacting with Mortals too much. They then either gave her a soul back (but only a little) or fanned the ember until it was a guttering flame (possibly this was through soul exchanging as described by Bob in White Night).

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on March 04, 2013, 08:30:28 PM

I like to think of the Dresdenverse soul as source of light.  A typical mortal's soul shines bright, and is the shape of their body, for lack of a better form.

Like Bob has described, mortals swap bits of their soul's constantly. When they hug, emote, get jiggy, or whatever else brings them close.

I think for beings like Mab, who started out with a mortal soul, their soul slowly fades over time.  Maybe not in size, but in brightness.  Like a light fading.  Eventually, like Butcher describes it, it can seem to completely dissipate, where its no longer there.

I think in Mab's case, and most of the Fae, they still retain their soul initially, but it fades.  But I think there's still enough there to interact with other souls around them.

In this case, Mab has had regular interaction with Sarissa for years, and I'm sure on some level, they've either shared or reflected each other's souls.  Mab has also had more contact with the mortal world through Harry, who we all know is big on soul.  And she's now bonded to Harry through the WK mantle ceremony, and the mantle itself.

So the idea that any remnant soul hasn't been affected by those around her seems unlikely.  It seems more likely that whatever soul she has left has been influenced by Sarissa, Harry, and any other mortals.  And since Sarissa and Harry both seem to be big softies, I'd say that's had a softening affect on Mab.

I don't know that she's gotten her soul 'back', so much as what she had left has been slightly rekindled by her relations with mortals.  I don't think she's going soft and fuzzy on us any time soon, but I'd say it allows her enough to remember the feelings she might once have had.  The light of her soul might still be dim, but it might be brighter than before.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: peregrine on March 04, 2013, 08:31:38 PM

On the one hand, she can't kill her own daughter.  On the other hand, she has her daughter killed by her assassin.  That's still pretty damned cold.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Rasins on March 04, 2013, 08:32:26 PM

I understand your point, but ... I took it to mean that had Mab changed, she might have figured out a way to work around Maeve's infection rather than have her killed. 

The fact that she was having the WL replaced is the important part, not who did it.  So I don't see her as having changed or become something more (or something else).  I just see it as her not wanting to do it, and that's within her ability to choose.

As to her soul, you have to be careful about what you mean.  Harry using Soulfire can use up his soul and cease to exist.  This is not the same thing as losing your soul.  In the context of Mab I took Jim's answer to mean damnation (losing her soul to the search for power) vs. keeping your soul (for the northbound train).

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 04, 2013, 08:44:13 PM

Quote from: Griffyn612 on March 04, 2013, 08:30:28 PM

I like to think of the Dresdenverse soul as source of light.  A typical mortal's soul shines bright, and is the shape of their body, for lack of a better form.

Like Bob has described, mortals swap bits of their soul's constantly. When they hug, emote, get jiggy, or whatever else brings them close.

I think for beings like Mab, who started out with a mortal soul, their soul slowly fades over time.  Maybe not in size, but in brightness.  Like a light fading.  Eventually, like Butcher describes it, it can seem to completely dissipate, where its no longer there.

I think in Mab's case, and most of the Fae, they still retain their soul initially, but it fades.  But I think there's still enough there to interact with other souls around them.

In this case, Mab has had regular interaction with Sarissa for years, and I'm sure on some level, they've either shared or reflected each other's souls.  Mab has also had more contact with the mortal world through Harry, who we all know is big on soul.  And she's now bonded to Harry through the WK mantle ceremony, and the mantle itself.

So the idea that any remnant soul hasn't been affected by those around her seems unlikely.  It seems more likely that whatever soul she has left has been influenced by Sarissa, Harry, and any other mortals.  And since Sarissa and Harry both seem to be big softies, I'd say that's had a softening affect on Mab.

I don't know that she's gotten her soul 'back', so much as what she had left has been slightly rekindled by her relations with mortals.  I don't think she's going soft and fuzzy on us any time soon, but I'd say it allows her enough to remember the feelings she might once have had.  The light of her soul might still be dim, but it might be brighter than before.

Yes that's probably the more likely option. It fits with the KC signing thing perfectly. 

So she still had a very very small ember of a soul left but it wasn't enough to actually influence her. However, she then interacted with mortals to much and they began to give her more soul.

Quote from: peregrine on March 04, 2013, 08:31:38 PM

On the one hand, she can't kill her own daughter.  On the other hand, she has her daughter killed by her assassin.  That's still pretty damned cold.

Well Jim did say he wasn't sure whether she had some small spark left or not. Maybe she has enough soul to not be able to kill Maeve but not enough to enable her emotions to completely overtake her head.

Quote from: Rasins on March 04, 2013, 08:32:26 PM

I understand your point, but ... I took it to mean that had Mab changed, she might have figured out a way to work around Maeve's infection rather than have her killed. 

The fact that she was having the WL replaced is the important part, not who did it.  So I don't see her as having changed or become something more (or something else).  I just see it as her not wanting to do it, and that's within her ability to choose.

As to her soul, you have to be careful about what you mean.  Harry using Soulfire can use up his soul and cease to exist.  This is not the same thing as losing your soul.  In the context of Mab I took Jim's answer to mean damnation (losing her soul to the search for power) vs. keeping your soul (for the northbound train).

Who's to say Mab didn't try to find out a way to cure Maeve? Also, see my reply to Peregrine.

And it wasn't just having someone else do it. Mab sounds pretty sad in the book about Maeves death.

That part of the WoJ was pretty weird. I'm not sure which part was metaphorical and which part wasn't. I thought humans would always have a soul/Free Will no matter how far down they went. The Knight still try to redeem the really old, evil Denarians after all.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: lt_murgen on March 04, 2013, 08:55:42 PM

Based on my thoughts here:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36663.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36663.0.html)

I would say that Mab's soul has not been completely bested by the Purpose brought on by her mantle and position.  Her constant interaction with mortals is feeding her soul, giving it metaphysical ammunition to subvert her Purpose.  WHich might be yet another reason she chose Dresden- watching him fight his mantle for every metaphysical inch might empower her to do the same.
Not that she needs to change, mind you.  I like her just the way she is. 

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on March 04, 2013, 08:57:39 PM

Quote from: Rasins on March 04, 2013, 08:32:26 PM

I understand your point, but ... I took it to mean that had Mab changed, she might have figured out a way to work around Maeve's infection rather than have her killed. 

The fact that she was having the WL replaced is the important part, not who did it.  So I don't see her as having changed or become something more (or something else).  I just see it as her not wanting to do it, and that's within her ability to choose.

As to her soul, you have to be careful about what you mean.  Harry using Soulfire can use up his soul and cease to exist.  This is not the same thing as losing your soul.  In the context of Mab I took Jim's answer to mean damnation (losing her soul to the search for power) vs. keeping your soul (for the northbound train).

Remember that Maeve might have been Infected since the end of SK.  And Mab's known at least since PG, if not earlier, but after DB.  That means that she's had years to work on Maeve subtly, trying to discover exactly how far gone she was.  I think the important thing about Lea was that on some level, she wanted to be cured.  It wasn't until Maeve openly said in CD that she didn't want to be cured that Mab gave up.  And she let an Infected Maeve remain in power for years, and only eventually took action once Maeve was making a considerable effort to destroy the balances in place.

Remember, Mab can't lie.
 - "I would prefer it if you were to allowed me to assist you to return to your duties."
 - In reference to wanting to torture Maeve, she hesitated, but she still said "No, Maeve"
 - "I cared too much."

She wanted Meave saved, but that doesn't mean that she'd convinced herself it was likely.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Don on March 04, 2013, 09:33:56 PM

I like it.

I happen to believe that there was more to Maeve's comments at Macs back in PG than misdirection.

I floated a theory a few years ago that Mab is actually in love with Harry (her own demented kind of love, of course).

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 04, 2013, 09:57:59 PM

   I do not think Mab is any different from what she was or that she has become something more.  I think simply that we and Harry understand her better.  We understand what is at stake at the Gates, the perpetual war, the losses that Winter makes on a regular basis, we are getting Mab's point of view, something we really never had before.  When pushed by Harry, Mab allowed us to see that there  is a feeling side to her, unlike Titania who sheds a river of tears for Aurora, Mab's grief was a quiet silence. Mab knew that Maeve had to die, but while she didn't shirk from her duty to do it, she still is capable of love and does grieve for her only daughter.  In short, though Harry should never underestimate her, let down his guard against her, fear her any less for what she is capable of, she is less scary now.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 04, 2013, 10:16:42 PM

Quote from: Mira on March 04, 2013, 09:57:59 PM

   I do not think Mab is any different from what she was or that she has become something more.  I think simply that we and Harry understand her better.  We understand what is at stake at the Gates, the perpetual war, the losses that Winter makes on a regular basis, we are getting Mab's point of view, something we really never had before.  When pushed by Harry, Mab allowed us to see that there  is a feeling side to her, unlike Titania who sheds a river of tears for Aurora, Mab's grief was a quiet silence. Mab knew that Maeve had to die, but while she didn't shirk from her duty to do it, she still is capable of love and does grieve for her only daughter.  In short, though Harry should never underestimate her, let down his guard against her, fear her any less for what she is capable of, she is less scary now.

I think that's unlikely because of this WoJ:

Quote

<snip>
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old. 

As far as she's concerned, everyone and everything is expendable, including herself, when it comes to adhering to her (seemingly irrational and inexplicable) priorities. 

(And by the way--don't think Titania is much better.  When push came to shove, she let her own daughter be murdered rather than upset the balance of the Faerie Courts.  At least Mab is up front about it.  Usually.)

Sacrifice her best troops?  Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that's what she thought was appropriate.  And she wouldn't even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.

But no one does cold-blooded like the Queen of Winter.  Mab's been in the business a long time, she's got a balance sheet, and she is *not* going to come out in the red--
--unless, of course, she really *has* stripped a gear, as Lily and Maeve believe.  In which case there's a stark raving bonkers demigoddess whose powers are no longer being held in check by the Escher-esque code of Sidhe behavior.  And that's all kinds of bad.

But hey.  It's probably not that.  I mean, not *everything* that happens can be the absolute worst possible possibility, right?

Jim

Wow...how the heck did I forget to post that  :o.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: peregrine on March 04, 2013, 10:55:15 PM

Though let's face it, there's a difference between "best troops" which are assets in the war, and "daughter" which has, apparently, an actual emotional connection.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 04, 2013, 10:59:24 PM

I really like the idea that Mab's soul had been reduced to the point where it was barely a glowing ember, but recently her increased contact with mortals has fanned it into at least a weak, guttering flame. Rings true for me.

Let's just hope she knows enough to keep a lid on it and not let it burn much brighter than it is now though. I doubt she will, but it could be a rather bad thing at this juncture...

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 04, 2013, 11:06:25 PM

Quote from: peregrine on March 04, 2013, 10:55:15 PM

Though let's face it, there's a difference between "best troops" which are assets in the war, and "daughter" which has, apparently, an actual emotional connection.

Yes? The quote specifically says that she would sacrifice every creature in Winter and she wouldn't even need to add sugar to her tea afterwards.

Quote from: KrelianZG on March 04, 2013, 10:59:24 PM

I really like the idea that Mab's soul had been reduced to the point where it was barely a glowing ember, but recently her increased contact with mortals has fanned it into at least a weak, guttering flame. Rings true for me.

Let's just hope she knows enough to keep a lid on it and not let it burn much brighter than it is now though. I doubt she will, but it could be a rather bad thing at this juncture...

How far back is "recently"?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 04, 2013, 11:12:54 PM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 04, 2013, 11:06:25 PM

How far back is "recently"?

Probably slowly built with her relationship with Sarissa, and really started making an impact on her in the last decade?

It's not a big enough change that it would alter her day-to-day behavior, I think. Just when drastic emotional decisions (ie having to kill your daughter) had to be made.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 04, 2013, 11:57:05 PM

Quote from: KrelianZG on March 04, 2013, 11:12:54 PM

Probably slowly built with her relationship with Sarissa, and really started making an impact on her in the last decade?

It's not a big enough change that it would alter her day-to-day behavior, I think. Just when drastic emotional decisions (ie having to kill your daughter) had to be made.

Maybe it started making an impact even earlier? Perhaps that's how Nemesis got in...Mab let her heart rule her head and made an emotional decision instead of a rational one...

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 12:54:21 AM

Ive thought about it, and I have concluded Mab has become more.

she is now Mrs. Dresden.

 ;D

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 05, 2013, 12:58:33 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 12:54:21 AM

Ive thought about it, and I have concluded Mab has become more.

she is now Mrs. Dresden.

 ;D

My "Harry as father of Maeve and Sarissa" is all coming together now. Mwahahaha.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 05, 2013, 01:47:11 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 12:54:21 AM

Ive thought about it, and I have concluded Mab has become more.

she is now Mrs. Dresden.

 ;D

It is more like Harry is now Mr. Winter rather than the other way around.

About Mab's soul. Mab spends time with Sarrissa like a few hours a year? And I suspect she did that to make sure that there is backup for WL position if it is nessasary. That is not enough to rekindle a soul like Mab. Mab's interactions with Harry is not long enough or intense enough to rekindle Mab's soul either.

It is possible that these interactions helps in slowing down the total subversion of Mab's mortal soul. What we saw in CD, if it is a spark of Mab's soul at all, is just what is left. To expect that prolong interactions with Harry and other mortals will eventually rekindle Mab's soul in just a few decades is extremely unlikely. Given enough time and nurture perhaps, like a thousand years of constant effort, maybe it is possible, but in just a century or two? and only a few hours a year? Not likely. And Mab herself will have to want it, which I don't think is the case. She seems to be content enough.

Changes did come to immortals, like what Mother summer said. But for immortals, those changes happens in hundreds, even thousands of years, if it ever happened at all and the immortal is certainly going to react badly to it.

We shall see if this is even possible. If Harry is able to do the same thing to the Winter knight mantle as what he did to laschiel's shadow, than we will know for sure that changing an immortal by prolong exposure to mortals is possible.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 05, 2013, 02:03:00 AM

  I stand by what I said.. We understand Mab more so she seems like more..

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 05, 2013, 02:04:08 AM

Quote from: Mira on March 05, 2013, 02:03:00 AM

  I stand by what I said.. We understand Mab more so she seems like more..

There's a lot of truth to this. I do think, given the stated nature of Winter and MW's comments, Mab has changed a bit. I agree that it's not as drastic as what we see in the course of the series though.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 05, 2013, 02:28:31 AM

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 05, 2013, 01:47:11 AM

It is more like Harry is now Mr. Winter rather than the other way around.

About Mab's soul. Mab spends time with Sarrissa like a few hours a year? And I suspect she did that to make sure that there is backup for WL position if it is nessasary. That is not enough to rekindle a soul like Mab. Mab's interactions with Harry is not long enough or intense enough to rekindle Mab's soul either.

It is possible that these interactions helps in slowing down the total subversion of Mab's mortal soul. What we saw in CD, if it is a spark of Mab's soul at all, is just what is left. To expect that prolong interactions with Harry and other mortals will eventually rekindle Mab's soul in just a few decades is extremely unlikely. Given enough time and nurture perhaps, like a thousand years of constant effort, maybe it is possible, but in just a century or two? and only a few hours a year? Not likely. And Mab herself will have to want it, which I don't think is the case. She seems to be content enough.

Changes did come to immortals, like what Mother summer said. But for immortals, those changes happens in hundreds, even thousands of years, if it ever happened at all and the immortal is certainly going to react badly to it.

We shall see if this is even possible. If Harry is able to do the same thing to the Winter knight mantle as what he did to laschiel's shadow, than we will know for sure that changing an immortal by prolong exposure to mortals is possible.

Maybe it wasn't just Sarrissa, maybe it started long before Sarrissa was even born. We don't have enough information (also note that Sarrissa is her daughter. Perhaps that aided as well). I beleive it was stated that Mab has been Winter Queen for a thousand years?

Why does she have to want it?

How do you explain the clashing WoJ's and MW's statement?

Quote from: Mira on March 05, 2013, 02:03:00 AM

  I stand by what I said.. We understand Mab more so she seems like more..

How do you explain the WoJ?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 02:37:15 AM

seriously, do you think the woman who became Mab grew more intelligent, ruthless, cunning, and relentless as the mantle took over or was she always one kick arse biotch from heck which is why she got the job?

I think it's the latter.

then the explanation for why she still has part of her soul is simple.. she's too dang stubborn not too.

she just won't give up.. not to nemesis, not to the outsiders, and not to her own nature. She will be what she wishes to be and heck helps whomever gets in her way.

 ;D

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 05, 2013, 02:40:22 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 02:37:15 AM

seriously, do you think the woman who became Mab grew more intelligent, ruthless, cunning, and relentless as the mantle took over or was she always one kick arse biotch from heck which is why she got the job?

I think it's the latter.

then the explanation for why she still has part of her soul is simple.. she's too dang stubborn not too.

she just won't give up.. not to nemesis, not to the outsiders, and not to her own nature. She will be what she wishes to be and heck helps whomever gets in her way.

 ;D

Well Lily wasn't exactly "kick arse" and she got the job. Molly is arguably "kick arse" but she wasn't a first option. Sarrissa didn't really seem "kick arse" either.

I do agree with you though.

Though...why would the Mab described in the WoJ's care if she lost her soul?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 02:42:10 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 05, 2013, 02:40:22 AM

Well Lily wasn't exactly "kick arse" and she got the job. Molly is arguably "kick arse" but she wasn't a first option. Sarrissa didn't really seem "kick arse" either.

I do agree with you though.

Though...why would the Mab described in the WoJ's care if she lost her soul?

because she wants it... and she refuses to give up, that's why.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 05, 2013, 02:44:18 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 05, 2013, 02:40:22 AM

Well Lily wasn't exactly "kick arse" and she got the job. Molly is arguably "kick arse" but she wasn't a first option. Sarrissa didn't really seem "kick arse" either.

I do agree with you though.

Though...why would the Mab described in the WoJ's care if she lost her soul?

Freeing yourself from the problems arising from having a soul and strong emotions isn't the same as being willing to lose your soul forever. If Mab was once human, it makes sense that she'd tuck that little bit of her away and hold on to it. I'd guess that Maeve was the first time in a millennium that Mab has made a choice that was potentially the wrong one based on emotion.

I support the "Mab has a soul that is still somewhat detectable" crowd, but I think we're in a unique position to see the one time it has really meant something.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 05, 2013, 02:49:32 AM

Quote from: KrelianZG on March 05, 2013, 02:44:18 AM

Freeing yourself from the problems arising from having a soul and strong emotions isn't the same as being willing to lose your soul forever. If Mab was once human, it makes sense that she'd tuck that little bit of her away and hold on to it. I'd guess that Maeve was the first time in a millennium that Mab has made a choice that was potentially the wrong one based on emotion.

I support the "Mab has a soul that is still somewhat detectable" crowd, but I think we're in a unique position to see the one time it has really meant something.

I can get her wanting to keep it after she first gets the Mantle. After 900 years of the Mantle chipping away at her soul you'd think she'd simply stop caring.  Mab is pragmatic.

Unless she made an oath or something...

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 05, 2013, 02:52:18 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 04, 2013, 07:33:18 PM

Then at some time (possibly beginning with Sarrisa) she began interacting with Mortals too much. They then either gave her a soul back (but only a little) or fanned the ember until it was a guttering flame (possibly this was through soul exchanging as described by Bob in White Night).

Spending time with Sarissa may have touched the teeny tiny spark of Mab's mother love.  I just can't reconcile the idea that Mab was fanning the wee spark of a soul into a little flame, by spending time with Sarissa, while at the same time she was visiting tortures beyond comprehension on Lloyd Slate. (NOT defending Slate or saying he wasn't due some serious punishment.)  I just think soul-growth on weekends would be negated by torture through the work week.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 05, 2013, 02:53:13 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 05, 2013, 02:49:32 AM

I can get her wanting to keep it after she first gets the Mantle. After 900 years of the Mantle chipping away at her soul you'd think she'd simply stop caring.  Mab is pragmatic.

Unless she made an oath or something...

Following the mantle doesn't necessarily threaten EVERYTHING that makes you a human. I don't see where the mantle necessitates losing your soul. It might be easier, after centuries, to just stop holding on, sure. But Mab is Mab. She won't let anything she values totally slip away, even if it has no value 99% of the time.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 05, 2013, 03:02:22 AM

Quote from: KrelianZG on March 05, 2013, 12:58:33 AM

My "Harry as father of Maeve and Sarissa" is all coming together now. Mwahahaha.

That kind of skeeves me out.   :o

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 05, 2013, 03:05:12 AM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 05, 2013, 03:02:22 AM

That kind of skeeves me out.   :o

As it should  8)

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 03:11:44 AM

Just realize.. there is at least a 10% chance harry is now Marcone's great great step granddad...

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 05, 2013, 03:19:07 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 03:11:44 AM

Just realize.. there is at least a 10% chance harry is now Marcone's great great step granddad...

The idea of Harry using "yo mamma" jokes on Marcone has amused me since that idea first appeared.

I'd love a short story where Harry steps into Marcone's office and just says "Son, we really need to talk...."

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 05, 2013, 03:21:41 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 05, 2013, 02:28:31 AM

Maybe it wasn't just Sarrissa, maybe it started long before Sarrissa was even born. We don't have enough information (also note that Sarrissa is her daughter. Perhaps that aided as well). I beleive it was stated that Mab has been Winter Queen for a thousand years?

Why does she have to want it?

How do you explain the clashing WoJ's and MW's statement?

How do you explain the WoJ?

Previous WoJ stated that Mab have no soul, that she is unchangeable. After CD, I think it is possible to question the validity of that particular WoJ. When text and Woj contradict each other, I usually side with the text. WoJ is just Jim's ideas that is not yet put into cannon. He have the right to changed his mind. What is absolutely cannot happened is text contradict text. That will show that Jim is ill prepared. Jim has never make this mistake before and I hope he never will.

So, it is possible, just possible mind you, that Mab can be changed. Maybe, it is even possible to rekindle her soul. According to Mother summer, change in immortals did happened and as we can see with Odin/Santa, such evolution did happened, but it takes a lot of time. Is Odin transforming into Santa is a soul changed or a mantle change is anyone's guess but change in immortals did happened, that is for sure.

I expect that Mab have to be willing to change. Changing a vanilla mortal without his/her consent is already hard. Trying to changed Mab against her wil will be impossible. I don't expect the rules in the DV is not to much different from the real world in this regard, so it is just simple sense.

I did not believe however that just Sarrissa and Harry is enough to changed Mab, not in such short a time and with so little interaction. Especially if Mab don't really want it. She told Maeve that fulfilling your purpose is not slavery, so I assume she is quite satisfied with her current circumstances.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Gman on March 05, 2013, 08:21:36 AM

Mab is a bit sweet on Harry. She hides it but Harry has gotten away with a whole lot more with less punishment than most anybody else I have seen dealing with Winter. Mab likes, respects Harry and trusted him to protect her daughter Salrissa besides wanting them to hook up.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 05, 2013, 09:25:47 AM

Quote from: Gman on March 05, 2013, 08:21:36 AM

Mab is a bit sweet on Harry. She hides it but Harry has gotten away with a whole lot more with less punishment than most anybody else I have seen dealing with Winter. Mab likes, respects Harry and trusted him to protect her daughter Salrissa besides wanting them to hook up.

Here is a quote:
“I thought Mab’s wrath was pretty bad until I found out what her affection was like.”

Mab''s idea of sweet is 77 attempted murder. See how much she makes the effort to prepare Harry? She probably believe that if Harry really dies in those trainning attempts it will be the best thing for Harry ever.

Same withhiring him to find the summer knight mantle in SK and when Mab takes away Harry's fire magic in Smf.

Mab is just taking good care of his most beloved Harry dresden.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Gman on March 05, 2013, 10:04:05 AM

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 05, 2013, 09:25:47 AM

Here is a quote:
“I thought Mab’s wrath was pretty bad until I found out what her affection was like.”

Mab''s idea of sweet is 77 attempted murder. See how much she makes the effort to prepare Harry? She probably believe that if Harry really dies in those trainning attempts it will be the best thing for Harry ever.

Same withhiring him to find the summer knight mantle in SK and when Mab takes away Harry's fire magic in Smf.

Mab is just taking good care of his most beloved Harry dresden.

Mab believes in tough love. ::) I'm not saying Mab is all kind, sweet and lovey dovey with Harry. It is not in Mab's nature to be that way. I'm just saying she is nicer to Harry than how she treats others of his station. Look how Maeve was treating Slate. Mab was putting Harry in WK boot camp so he would survive confronting Maeve, her posse and the Outsiders. She was not trying to kill him. If Harry died in training it would be an easier death than in the field.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 05, 2013, 01:12:07 PM

Quote from: Gman on March 05, 2013, 10:04:05 AM

Mab believes in tough love. ::) I'm not saying Mab is all kind, sweet and lovey dovey with Harry. It is not in Mab's nature to be that way. I'm just saying she is nicer to Harry than how she treats others of his station. Look how Maeve was treating Slate. Mab was putting Harry in WK boot camp so he would survive confronting Maeve, her posse and the Outsiders. She was not trying to kill him. If Harry died in training it would be an easier death than in the field.

  I think Mab respects Harry, but she will use him as she must.  Her nature is hard and sometime cruel, she shows no mercy, but that is what she has to be in the fight against the empty night.  Whatever "humanness" in her nature, whatever soul has been surpressed long ago by the task at hand.  Harry now understands that about her, Kringle reenforced that notion as well.  Mab realizes she can trust Harry so she allowed him to glimpse that moment of vulnerability after Maeve died in her grief.. However she cannot afford to have others view her moment of "weakness," so as Kringle said, never put her in that position in front of others, she'd tear him apart.  So has Mab changed?  Yes, in that she trusted Harry enough to let him see her weakness in a moment of pain.. And no, she still is the Queen of Winter and Darkness, the same cold hard bitch she always was, we and Harry now just understand her better.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 05, 2013, 01:51:54 PM

Quote from: Gman on March 05, 2013, 10:04:05 AM

Mab believes in tough love. ::) I'm not saying Mab is all kind, sweet and lovey dovey with Harry. It is not in Mab's nature to be that way. I'm just saying she is nicer to Harry than how she treats others of his station. Look how Maeve was treating Slate. Mab was putting Harry in WK boot camp so he would survive confronting Maeve, her posse and the Outsiders. She was not trying to kill him. If Harry died in training it would be an easier death than in the field.

I don't doubt the effectiveness of Mab's method. Considering Harry's temperament , it is probably the fastest trainning method for him.

But I really won't assign the word sweet anywhere near Mab. She did not do all of that because she have any real affection for Harry. She did not do all that because she wanted the best for Harry. I don't believe that. She did all that because it is the most effective way to forge Harry into a weapon.

Slate may be a winter knight like Harry, but Slate is a Club while Harry is a sharp sword. Slate is a knight for intimidation while Harry is a knight for annihilation. It only make sense if Harry is trained differently.

No love for Harry, none whatsoever. Her vulnarable moment? Well, Harry already knows. That is why Harry could asked that particular question. There is no harm to reveal her vulnarability when no one else is around.

Why not train a knight like Harry all the time? Well, talent is hard to come by and a knight like Harry is quite dangerous. The queen is vulnarable against her knight so having a knight like Harry in peace time is stupid and dangerous. You only build a weapon when you have a target in mind. Especially if that particular weapon can be used against you.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 05, 2013, 03:07:30 PM

Quote

Slate may be a winter knight like Harry, but Slate is a Club while Harry is a sharp sword. Slate is a knight for intimidation while Harry is a knight for annihilation. It only make sense if Harry is trained differently.

  Slate may have been used in that way, but Slate was a monster and a thug, where Harry isn't.  The difference is Slate's will was weak to begin with, so he was dominated by the mantle.. Slate as near as we can tell was an ordinary vanilla mortal before he wore the mantle so it presented all kinds of temptations in the direction of his baser nature, which he fully indulged in..  Both Mab and Maeve understood him very well and used his weaknesses against him.  While the sex act with Mab may have been a ritual necessity when Harry became Knight... Harry didn't become totally seduced and addicted to the pleasure no matter how incredible the act with Mab.. Simply because he understands what Mab is.  Maeve must have controlled Slade sexually and showed her lack of perception by thinking that she could seduce and control Harry in the same way, that of course backfired, because Harry also understood what Maeve was.  However, Slade a guy from the streets did become addicted, it was also one of the ways Mab tormented him after he was found out to be a traitor.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 03:15:40 PM

In Harry's a sharp sword, slade wasn't a club. he was a toothbrush.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Rasins on March 05, 2013, 03:27:24 PM

I think folks took my statement incorrectly.  I do believe that Mab tried to find a solution to Maeve before deciding to have her removed.  I don't believe she wanted to have an experienced Lady replaced, be it her daughter or not.  I believe that as a tool, Maeve was probably pretty good at it until Nemesis got to her. 

Also remember that Mab couldn't confront Maeve about her infection until CD, because if she Nemesis knew that Mab knew, Nemesis would have done more to have Mab replaced.  Then again, maybe that is what the gambit on DR was really all about.  Getting someone to off Mab on Halloween, allowing Maeve to step up.  Only Mab had already seen it coming and put things in motion to allow for a smooth transition of power.  Having Sarissa hang out with Harry so she'd be in a position to receive  the WL mantle.  And having a back-up (Molly) in case that didn't work out. 

I don't believe Mab being there when it all went down was actually part of the plan.  I think Mab was saddend at the need to remove a good tool even more so than having her daughter killed.  The fact that it's a two-fer just confuses things.  "Mab would sacrifice everything in winter ... and not even have to add sugar to her tea..." is great, but it doesn't really mean that she wants to do it.  And anytime someone is of that mindset, they usually don't expect to send their own family to the front lines.

As to her soul.  I think she still has her soul.  But if you look at it as though it's on a spectrum from light (heavely) to black (hellish), her search for and grasping for power has pushed her toward the black end of the spectrum.  CAN she be bought back to the light end?  Probably.  But it'd take a GREAT DEAL of changes for it to occur, and according to the Mothers it would take a great deal of time.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 05, 2013, 04:17:15 PM

Quote

Previous WoJ stated that Mab have no soul, that she is unchangeable. After CD, I think it is possible to question the validity of that particular WoJ. When text and Woj contradict each other, I usually side with the text. WoJ is just Jim's ideas that is not yet put into cannon. He have the right to changed his mind. What is absolutely cannot happened is text contradict text. That will show that Jim is ill prepared. Jim has never make this mistake before and I hope he never will.

As I remember there was some controversial problems with earlier book that bugs me, but I would have to look after them to get some proves. But one way or another as a good Catholic I decline sola scriptura philosophy and takes WoJ as part of canon itself ;) Therefore I believe that Mab's behaviour in CD doesn't prove that she has her soul. She can have feeling - soulless doesn't mean emotionless, she can have memories of her mortal life. That isn't contrary to her mantle. After all in Winter lone wolf dies, but pack survievs. Winter is cruel, but it isn't mad cruelty. Maeve lost her soul too, but she didn't lose her feelings.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 05, 2013, 04:21:39 PM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 05, 2013, 03:15:40 PM

In Harry's a sharp sword, slade wasn't a club. he was a toothbrush.

No, ice pick..

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Veritas on March 05, 2013, 04:51:58 PM

Quote from: Mira on March 05, 2013, 03:07:30 PM

  Slate may have been used in that way, but Slate was a monster and a thug, where Harry isn't.  The difference is Slate's will was weak to begin with, so he was dominated by the mantle.. Slate as near as we can tell was an ordinary vanilla mortal before he wore the mantle so it presented all kinds of temptations in the direction of his baser nature, which he fully indulged in..  Both Mab and Maeve understood him very well and used his weaknesses against him.  While the sex act with Mab may have been a ritual necessity when Harry became Knight... Harry didn't become totally seduced and addicted to the pleasure no matter how incredible the act with Mab.. Simply because he understands what Mab is.  Maeve must have controlled Slade sexually and showed her lack of perception by thinking that she could seduce and control Harry in the same way, that of course backfired, because Harry also understood what Maeve was.  However, Slade a guy from the streets did become addicted, it was also one of the ways Mab tormented him after he was found out to be a traitor.

I doubt Maeve controlled Slate with sex. In SK, she used heroin to control Slate. I think those were  the type of drugs that Maeve and Mab used to addict him.  I always assumed Maeve was the type of girl who liked to tease rather than deliver  :(

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 05, 2013, 06:10:01 PM

Quote from: Veritas on March 05, 2013, 04:51:58 PM

I doubt Maeve controlled Slate with sex. In SK, she used heroin to control Slate. I think those were  the type of drugs that Maeve and Mab used to addict him.  I always assumed Maeve was the type of girl who liked to tease rather than deliver  :(

  She may have used heroin, but I think he was addicted to that anyway... However even if she didn't directly use sex herself, surrogates for her might have.  Remember when Harry and Billy visited her court under Chicago?  Maeve tried to seduce Harry using others of her court,  Harry ended up pouring a picture of ice water in his lap to keep from being seduced.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Gman on March 05, 2013, 06:32:30 PM

Quote from: Rasins on March 05, 2013, 03:27:24 PM

I think folks took my statement incorrectly.  I do believe that Mab tried to find a solution to Maeve before deciding to have her removed.  I don't believe she wanted to have an experienced Lady replaced, be it her daughter or not.  I believe that as a tool, Maeve was probably pretty good at it until Nemesis got to her. 

Also remember that Mab couldn't confront Maeve about her infection until CD, because if she Nemesis knew that Mab knew, Nemesis would have done more to have Mab replaced.  Then again, maybe that is what the gambit on DR was really all about.  Getting someone to off Mab on Halloween, allowing Maeve to step up.  Only Mab had already seen it coming and put things in motion to allow for a smooth transition of power.  Having Sarissa hang out with Harry so she'd be in a position to receive  the WL mantle.  And having a back-up (Molly) in case that didn't work out. 

I don't believe Mab being there when it all went down was actually part of the plan.  I think Mab was saddend at the need to remove a good tool even more so than having her daughter killed.  The fact that it's a two-fer just confuses things.  "Mab would sacrifice everything in winter ... and not even have to add sugar to her tea..." is great, but it doesn't really mean that she wants to do it.  And anytime someone is of that mindset, they usually don't expect to send their own family to the front lines.

As to her soul.  I think she still has her soul.  But if you look at it as though it's on a spectrum from light (heavely) to black (hellish), her search for and grasping for power has pushed her toward the black end of the spectrum.  CAN she be bought back to the light end?  Probably.  But it'd take a GREAT DEAL of changes for it to occur, and according to the Mothers it would take a great deal of time.

Look at Maeve's actions before she was taken by Nemesis. She gave he sister Salrissa a real hard time. She chose a looser WK (Slate). Look how she acted at her Court, torturing mortals for example. Mab does not go out of her way to be cruel. She lays the smack down on those who act against her. Not random cruelty. She gave Harry a hard time when he was appointed by Mommy Mab to find who stole the SK mantle instead of helping Winter and vindicating Mommy. In other words by Maeve's actions she was not doing a great job as WL. She was acting as a spoiled teenager when she is centuries old. I think Nemesis inflated Maeve's jealousy of Mab. Lea wanted to be cured and fought Nemesis, Maeve embraced Nemesis. I think Mab failed to discipline Maeve and spoiled her instead of making her a proper WL. Salrissa would have probably done a better job even though she didn't want to be WL. Molly will probably do a better job.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 05, 2013, 06:48:42 PM

Quote from: Gman on March 05, 2013, 06:32:30 PM

Look at Maeve's actions before she was taken by Nemesis. She gave he sister Salrissa a real hard time. She chose a looser WK (Slate). Look how she acted at her Court, torturing mortals for example. Mab does not go out of her way to be cruel. She lays the smack down on those who act against her. Not random cruelty. She gave Harry a hard time when he was appointed by Mommy Mab to find who stole the SK mantle instead of helping Winter and vindicating Mommy. In other words by Maeve's actions she was not doing a great job as WL. She was acting as a spoiled teenager when she is centuries old. I think Nemesis inflated Maeve's jealousy of Mab. Lea wanted to be cured and fought Nemesis, Maeve embraced Nemesis. I think Mab failed to discipline Maeve and spoiled her instead of making her a proper WL. Salrissa would have probably done a better job even though she didn't want to be WL. Molly will probably do a better job.

  As of Summer Knight she might have already been infected.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Rasins on March 05, 2013, 06:56:11 PM

Quote from: Gman on March 05, 2013, 06:32:30 PM

In other words by Maeve's actions she was not doing a great job as WL.

Actually we can't really speak to that very much, not knowing what the actual duties of the WL are.  For all we know, her actual duties may have been to pop out some changlings and practice being cruel.

Quote

I think Mab failed to discipline Maeve and spoiled her instead of making her a proper WL. Salrissa would have probably done a better job even though she didn't want to be WL. Molly will probably do a better job.

See above.  That being the case, I actually agree with you.  I bet she hasn't been doing a proper job for quite awhile now, even before the Nemesis infection.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 05, 2013, 07:24:08 PM

Quote from: Mira on March 05, 2013, 06:48:42 PM

  As of Summer Knight she might have already been infected.

very likely because It must have been the first thing the newly infected Lea did.

It is quite possible that Slate actually followed Maeves orders all the time or that Aurora was infected via Maeve.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Gman on March 05, 2013, 08:31:40 PM

Quote from: Mira on March 05, 2013, 06:48:42 PM

  As of Summer Knight she might have already been infected.

Possibly, but if Maeve recently did a good job as WL then got infected before Summer Knight and then right after did an awful job and neglected her duties as WL it should have gotten Mab and Winter's attention that something was majorly wrong and Maeve was infected. I think Maeve was doing a poor job for a while and Nemesis just enhanced the negative aspects of Maeve.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 05, 2013, 08:37:02 PM

Quote from: Gman on March 05, 2013, 08:31:40 PM

Possibly, but if Maeve recently did a good job as WL then got infected before Summer Knight and then right after did an awful job and neglected her duties as WL it should have gotten Mab and Winter's attention that something was majorly wrong and Maeve was infected. I think Maeve was doing a poor job for a while and Nemesis just enhanced the negative aspects of Maeve.

  Possible, but not a given, remember that Mab was occupied with her own problems during SK, so she might not notice anything amiss with Maeve.  Though apparently Slade was chummy both with Maeve and Aurora.  Also Lea was still doing duty as Harry's godmother in SK, so though she was infected, she had already received the knife at Bianca's party, on the surface nothing seemed overtly wrong with her.  Now it is possible that Slade had gotten infected as well at some point and this led to his treason against Mab by the murder of the Summer Knight.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Veritas on March 05, 2013, 11:03:23 PM

Quote from: Mira on March 05, 2013, 08:37:02 PM

  Possible, but not a given, remember that Mab was occupied with her own problems during SK, so she might not notice anything amiss with Maeve.  Though apparently Slade was chummy both with Maeve and Aurora.  Also Lea was still doing duty as Harry's godmother in SK, so though she was infected, she had already received the knife at Bianca's party, on the surface nothing seemed overtly wrong with her.  Now it is possible that Slade had gotten infected as well at some point and this led to his treason against Mab by the murder of the Summer Knight.

I don't think Slate was infected because if he was  would Mab allow him into her bower( implied sex by Lea in PG) and risk an infection? I don't think that would be logical. Also, if he was infected, and Mab was aware, I think it unfair that she would torture only him but offer help to Lea and Maeve. If this is the case, it seems to reveal a sort of "my knight is expendable but my fae kin are not."

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Gman on March 05, 2013, 11:18:29 PM

Quote from: Veritas on March 05, 2013, 11:03:23 PM

I don't think Slate was infected because if he was  would Mab allow him into her bower( implied sex by Lea in PG) and risk an infection? I don't think that would be logical. Also, if he was infected, and Mab was aware, I think it unfair that she would torture only him but offer help to Lea and Maeve. If this is the case, it seems to reveal a sort of "my knight is expendable but my fae kin are not."

I doubt Slate was infected. As to punishment, Slate was a traitor. Lea and Maeve were kinda possessed by Nemesis. Not the same.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 06, 2013, 05:02:02 AM

Quote from: Mira on March 05, 2013, 03:07:30 PM

  Slate may have been used in that way, but Slate was a monster and a thug, where Harry isn't.  The difference is Slate's will was weak to begin with, so he was dominated by the mantle.. Slate as near as we can tell was an ordinary vanilla mortal before he wore the mantle so it presented all kinds of temptations in the direction of his baser nature, which he fully indulged in..  Both Mab and Maeve understood him very well and used his weaknesses against him.  While the sex act with Mab may have been a ritual necessity when Harry became Knight... Harry didn't become totally seduced and addicted to the pleasure no matter how incredible the act with Mab.. Simply because he understands what Mab is.  Maeve must have controlled Slade sexually and showed her lack of perception by thinking that she could seduce and control Harry in the same way, that of course backfired, because Harry also understood what Maeve was.  However, Slade a guy from the streets did become addicted, it was also one of the ways Mab tormented him after he was found out to be a traitor.

Think about it, Yeah, Slate is weak, he falls to the mantle and Maeve's ministration, but did Mab/Maeve hired him with the expectation that he will be a strong knight that is capable to control the mantle? If Slate is that weak, why is he is chosen to be a knight? Why is he not replaced long ago?

There is only a few likely answer for that question:

1. Mab miscalculated and Slate is not as strong as she expected.

2. A person of Harry's caliber is just so rare that Slate's weakness is just acceptable. Better a bad knight than no knight at all, Even though, Slate is weak he is still able to balanced the courts. He just have to exist and thats it.

3. Mab know Slate is weak and it is exactly what she wanted. After all, Mab is vulnarable to her knight and a weak knight is less dangerous. Things are good and well in winter and Mab have no need for a strong knight at the time.

Which of these reasons is more likely? Does Mab fails to see Slate's weakness or Is someone like Harry is just so rare that she cannot find a better replacement for slate, or Slate is just the kind of knight Mab wanted at the time. I personally think it is the third reason.

Harry is Mab's hand picked knight and thus she trained him personally. Extra hard. Because she have a special need considering the circumstances.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mortax on March 06, 2013, 05:29:14 AM

Quote from: Gman on March 05, 2013, 08:31:40 PM

Possibly, but if Maeve recently did a good job as WL then got infected before Summer Knight and then right after did an awful job and neglected her duties as WL it should have gotten Mab and Winter's attention that something was majorly wrong and Maeve was infected. I think Maeve was doing a poor job for a while and Nemesis just enhanced the negative aspects of Maeve.

The only thing that makes me hesitate to agree is this:
It's what, 4 or 5 years in between SK and Mab needing a translator? (Ie when she found out and became PISSED)  That is not a terribly long time.  It was about the same amount of time between that (her being pissed) and her telling Harry to kack her.  For an immortal, that's not very long.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2013, 05:58:27 AM

Quote

1. Mab miscalculated and Slate is not as strong as she expected.

  But is this true?  I mean Sarissa states to Harry that Slade didn't begin as the weak thug/monster that he knew.  So can it all be blamed on the effects of the mantle?  Or were other forces at work here?  Aurora was mad and talked Slade into murdering her own Knight. How did this come about?  What persuaded Slade to even conspire against his Queen, Mab?   I do not believe these events all happened in a vacuum. 

Lea got infected by way of the knife,gotten at that infamous party that a lot of other supernatural powers were in attendance.  Contact with her and or the knife infected Maeve.  We have the word of Mab on that.  Contact with either could have infected Slade, he is a mortal so the effects of Nemesis might work quicker in him.  However that still doesn't explain Aurora's madness.  Did she just go insane?  Or was she also infected by Nemesis?  If so, how?  I submit that Nemesis was indeed behind it.

Who stood to gain if Mab went down?  And in her place a spoiled spiteful child to paraphrase Mother Summer replaces her...   Who is going to command Winter's Army against the Outsiders and guard the Outer Gates if Mab goes down?  An infected, spoiled, spiteful child, Maeve.

Summer is there to keep Winter in check, but not to defeat her..  So what were Aurora's motives for wanting Mab brought down?  Who stood to gain by that?  Outsiders, Nemesis.. So it stands to reason that Aurora was infected, she in turn came in contact with Slade and brought him into her conspiracy to over throw Mab..  How did that come about?  Did Slade routinely come in contact with the Summer Court? If not, who ordered him there?  If it wasn't Mab, it had to have been Maeve..  Maeve, who may very well have been infected at the time..  If she sweetened the deal with sex, in turn infected Slade..  Slade coming in contact with Aurora, in turn infected her.  She being mad, and Slade being mad, then conspired to kill her Knight and frame Mab for it.  Maybe that was the bigger game that Mab finally figured out, why she decided to kill her daughter rather than try to cure her like she did Lea?  Or was Maeve just too far gone?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 06:06:15 AM

Mab clearly stated in summer knight that she had let Maeve handle the hired help. Bob told Harry the knights were like paper cups, discardable. Clearly under normal circumstances it was not that important who the knight was and Maeve could afford it the recruit a mediocre knight that functioned more as a plaything and as a prop for her image. Or to use Mabs words to indulge herself.

And it takes effort to get and maintain a good knight. Maeve is lazy.

But now Mab has work to do. We are near a crisis and Mab decided to wait years to get a knight with some promise. She took the knight from Maeve before she knew Maeve was infected. For that she has to handle Harry and if that means dredging up the remnants of her soul she will do so. It was never completely lost it was just irrelevant compared to nature and purpose.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2013, 06:16:03 AM

Quote

Mab clearly stated in summer knight that she had let Maeve handle the hired help. Bob told Harry the knights were like paper cups, discardable. Clearly under normal circumstances it was not that important who the knight was and Maeve could afford it the recruit a mediocre knight that functioned more as a plaything and as a prop for her image. Or to use Mabs words to indulge herself.

  The bigger picture is, unknown to Mab at the time, Maeve was infected and began to conspire against her.  As we saw in CDs she was able to convince Lily of Mab's madness.. So somehow she managed to spread the infection to Aurora, who succumbed more quickly to Nemesis, who was willing to go along with the plot to murder her own Knight and implicate Mab, thus making Maeve the eventual Queen.  It was easy too, considering that Mab did let her handle things like her Knight, Slade.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 06:32:33 AM

Quote from: Mira on March 06, 2013, 06:16:03 AM

  The bigger picture is, unknown to Mab at the time, Maeve was infected and began to conspire against her.  As we saw in CDs she was able to convince Lily of Mab's madness.. So somehow she managed to spread the infection to Aurora, who succumbed more quickly to Nemesis, who was willing to go along with the plot to murder her own Knight and implicate Mab, thus making Maeve the eventual Queen.  It was easy too, considering that Mab did let her handle things like her Knight, Slade.

I think that under normal circumstances the ladies handle the knights because they are closest to the mortal world. Mab stepped in because it was needed even before she knew why.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 06, 2013, 07:23:30 AM

Quote from: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 06:06:15 AM

Mab clearly stated in summer knight that she had let Maeve handle the hired help. Bob told Harry the knights were like paper cups, discardable. Clearly under normal circumstances it was not that important who the knight was and Maeve could afford it the recruit a mediocre knight that functioned more as a plaything and as a prop for her image. Or to use Mabs words to indulge herself.

And it takes effort to get and maintain a good knight. Maeve is lazy.

But now Mab has work to do. We are near a crisis and Mab decided to wait years to get a knight with some promise. She took the knight from Maeve before she knew Maeve was infected. For that she has to handle Harry and if that means dredging up the remnants of her soul she will do so. It was never completely lost it was just irrelevant compared to nature and purpose.

Which suggest that having a strong knight like Harry is at best unnessasary and at worst dangerous under normal conditions. Mab clearly did not care what kind of knight Maeve hired and after she finds out that Maeve hired a weak knight she did not intervened.

If this is true, what will happened when Harry is done doing Mab's bidding? When all the problem is solved and the situation is back to normal, will Mab consider Harry to dangerous to live? What do you do to your soldiers when the war is over and there is no enemy to fight anymore? What do you do to the only member of your court that you are vulnarable to?

Oh, Crap!

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 08:01:23 AM

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 06, 2013, 07:23:30 AM

Which suggest that having a strong knight like Harry is at best unnessasary and at worst dangerous under normal conditions. Mab clearly did not care what kind of knight Maeve hired and after she finds out that Maeve hired a weak knight she did not intervened.

If this is true, what will happened when Harry is done doing Mab's bidding? When all the problem is solved and the situation is back to normal, will Mab consider Harry to dangerous to live? What do you do to your soldiers when the war is over and there is no enemy to fight anymore? What do you do to the only member of your court that you are vulnarable to?

Oh, Crap!

Mab is not really vulnerable to Harry except maybe under very special circumstances which are easy to avoid. Mab takes the bond between queen and vassal seriously. Harry does so as well. When everything becomes quiet after the BAT Harry and Mab will have a better understanding of each other. There will be no reason for Mab to do anything drastic to Harry so she will not. She just keeps him as her knight.

Besides, Molly can handle him  :)

And will Harry ever be as dangerous as Mab? ;D

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 06, 2013, 10:05:07 AM

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 06, 2013, 07:23:30 AM

Which suggest that having a strong knight like Harry is at best unnessasary and at worst dangerous under normal conditions. Mab clearly did not care what kind of knight Maeve hired and after she finds out that Maeve hired a weak knight she did not intervened.

If this is true, what will happened when Harry is done doing Mab's bidding? When all the problem is solved and the situation is back to normal, will Mab consider Harry to dangerous to live? What do you do to your soldiers when the war is over and there is no enemy to fight anymore? What do you do to the only member of your court that you are vulnarable to?

Oh, Crap!

She hadn't intervened with previous WKs because at the time, they were adequate. Not anything Mab could use for important things, but enough to fill the "enforcer of Winter interests" role in the mortal world. I'd guess in the last few centuries, the Knights have mostly been killing mortals and low-tier supernatural beings that happen to be doing things that conflict with Winter's interests.

Harry, on the other hand, is an exceptionally strong wizard, a fairly good detective, AND a Starborn. Mab knew that Nemesis had infiltrated the Winter Court to a shocking degree. Her two most valuable assets in the Court were corrupted, and only one could really be saved. The time for thugs was over, and Mab wanted a Knight that could actually use the mantle to aid Winter in the real battle.

As for when it's all over? I'm in the camp that believes Mab (the individual we know now) won't make it through the BAT. A certain young lady will be filling those shoes, IMO....

But even if Mab survives, why would that change anything? If Harry proves to be so valuable that he survives and helps Winter through what is shaping up to be a supernatural apocalypse, I think he'll be in a good position to re-negotiate his contract :).

Assuming Harry makes it through everything and is still the WK at the end, I see him taking on a role more like Kringle in the Winter Court. Taking care of the real important stuff, respected by all the Fae, and not really bothered by obligations unless it's really important. (I do think Molly....er, "Mab", will have a hand in that...).

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2013, 01:31:37 PM

Quote

I think that under normal circumstances the ladies handle the knights because they are closest to the mortal world. Mab stepped in because it was needed even before she knew why.

  Which says that Maeve was infected and conspiring against dear old mum or at least to try and start a war in the Nevernever way beck in SK thus leaving an opening for the Outsiders to breech the Gates.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 06, 2013, 02:41:31 PM

Quote from: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 08:01:23 AM

Mab is not really vulnerable to Harry except maybe under very special circumstances which are easy to avoid. Mab takes the bond between queen and vassal seriously. Harry does so as well. When everything becomes quiet after the BAT Harry and Mab will have a better understanding of each other. There will be no reason for Mab to do anything drastic to Harry so she will not. She just keeps him as her knight.

Besides, Molly can handle him  :)

And will Harry ever be as dangerous as Mab? ;D

Yeah, I suppose you are right. Mab is not only strong because she held the winter queen's mantle. Able to feel some love for her own daughter shows that her soul might still survive deep down and able to keep a miniscule portion of your soul after baring the winter queen's mantle for a thousand years show that Mab is a frighteningly strong individual. I think Mab is secure enough in herself and in her power not to view Harry as a threat after things settled down.

I still believe a less secure queen might react badly to a knight as powerful as Harry though. I suspect part of the reason why a knight is kept zonk out with drugs and seks is to keep him from plotting against the queen.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2013, 03:55:50 PM

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 06, 2013, 02:41:31 PM

Yeah, I suppose you are right. Mab is not only strong because she held the winter queen's mantle. Able to feel some love for her own daughter shows that her soul might still survive deep down and able to keep a miniscule portion of your soul after baring the winter queen's mantle for a thousand years show that Mab is a frighteningly strong individual. I think Mab is secure enough in herself and in her power not to view Harry as a threat after things settled down.

I still believe a less secure queen might react badly to a knight as powerful as Harry though. I suspect part of the reason why a knight is kept zonk out with drugs and seks is to keep him from plotting against the queen.

  I don't think it has anything to do with Mab's strength...  I am willing to be that Maeve was allowed to pick her Knight just like Lily was able to chose Fix.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 06, 2013, 06:02:48 PM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 05, 2013, 02:52:18 AM

Spending time with Sarissa may have touched the teeny tiny spark of Mab's mother love.  I just can't reconcile the idea that Mab was fanning the wee spark of a soul into a little flame, by spending time with Sarissa, while at the same time she was visiting tortures beyond comprehension on Lloyd Slate. (NOT defending Slate or saying he wasn't due some serious punishment.)  I just think soul-growth on weekends would be negated by torture through the work week.

Maybe...the WoJ does say that a human can lose their soul. I'm not sure if that was meant metaphorically though (see my note on the Denarians).

When Bob talks about soul sharing in WN he only mentions Harry sharing his souls with Susan, Murphy, and Lash. None of those are "bad" relationships so he probably wasn't losing his soul...

Bob says that it's soul exchanging so wouldn't that mean that even if interacting with Mortals gave you bits of soul you would swap some back?

Hmmm...

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 05, 2013, 03:21:41 AM

Previous WoJ stated that Mab have no soul, that she is unchangeable. After CD, I think it is possible to question the validity of that particular WoJ. When text and Woj contradict each other, I usually side with the text. WoJ is just Jim's ideas that is not yet put into cannon. He have the right to changed his mind. What is absolutely cannot happened is text contradict text. That will show that Jim is ill prepared. Jim has never make this mistake before and I hope he never will.

So, it is possible, just possible mind you, that Mab can be changed. Maybe, it is even possible to rekindle her soul. According to Mother summer, change in immortals did happened and as we can see with Odin/Santa, such evolution did happened, but it takes a lot of time. Is Odin transforming into Santa is a soul changed or a mantle change is anyone's guess but change in immortals did happened, that is for sure.

I expect that Mab have to be willing to change. Changing a vanilla mortal without his/her consent is already hard. Trying to changed Mab against her wil will be impossible. I don't expect the rules in the DV is not to much different from the real world in this regard, so it is just simple sense.

I did not believe however that just Sarrissa and Harry is enough to changed Mab, not in such short a time and with so little interaction. Especially if Mab don't really want it. She told Maeve that fulfilling your purpose is not slavery, so I assume she is quite satisfied with her current circumstances.

It's not stated anywhere in CD that Mab has a soul. The only mention of it was in the KC WoJ and he says he isn't sure. I'll grant that it's ambiguous.

The WoJ specifically does not state that Mab is unchangeable. In fact it specifically states that beings without Free Will can become something more. That's the whole point of my theory.

I think that the change that Odin went through with the Kringle Mantle is waaay different than the "growing a soul" change. For one it doesn't really make sense it the context of MW's quote. After all she changed (she became Baba Yaga) so why is she dissing Mab for interacting with mortals too much? Also, neither Odin nor MW gained Free Will from their changes. It also doesn't make sense with the WoJ about the beings themselves not changing but our understanding of them changing. Gaining Free Will and a soul is very much a change of the being.

I don't think Mab has to be willing. The process of convincing a human and giving a being without a soul a soul are two very different things. The mortals aren't trying to convince Mab to change. That would be impossible. They are just unconciously giving a soul. No convincing involved at all. 

Quote from: Rasins on March 05, 2013, 03:27:24 PM

I think folks took my statement incorrectly.  I do believe that Mab tried to find a solution to Maeve before deciding to have her removed.  I don't believe she wanted to have an experienced Lady replaced, be it her daughter or not.  I believe that as a tool, Maeve was probably pretty good at it until Nemesis got to her. 

Also remember that Mab couldn't confront Maeve about her infection until CD, because if she Nemesis knew that Mab knew, Nemesis would have done more to have Mab replaced.  Then again, maybe that is what the gambit on DR was really all about.  Getting someone to off Mab on Halloween, allowing Maeve to step up.  Only Mab had already seen it coming and put things in motion to allow for a smooth transition of power.  Having Sarissa hang out with Harry so she'd be in a position to receive  the WL mantle.  And having a back-up (Molly) in case that didn't work out. 

I don't believe Mab being there when it all went down was actually part of the plan.  I think Mab was saddend at the need to remove a good tool even more so than having her daughter killed.  The fact that it's a two-fer just confuses things.  "Mab would sacrifice everything in winter ... and not even have to add sugar to her tea..." is great, but it doesn't really mean that she wants to do it.  And anytime someone is of that mindset, they usually don't expect to send their own family to the front lines.

As to her soul.  I think she still has her soul.  But if you look at it as though it's on a spectrum from light (heavely) to black (hellish), her search for and grasping for power has pushed her toward the black end of the spectrum.  CAN she be bought back to the light end?  Probably.  But it'd take a GREAT DEAL of changes for it to occur, and according to the Mothers it would take a great deal of time.

The WoJ wasn't from Mabs perspective. It's not Mab herself saying that. It is a direct statement from the author that Mab wouldn't give a crap if she had to sacrifice anyone in Winter.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 05, 2013, 04:17:15 PM

As I remember there was some controversial problems with earlier book that bugs me, but I would have to look after them to get some proves. But one way or another as a good Catholic I decline sola scriptura philosophy and takes WoJ as part of canon itself ;) Therefore I believe that Mab's behaviour in CD doesn't prove that she has her soul. She can have feeling - soulless doesn't mean emotionless, she can have memories of her mortal life. That isn't contrary to her mantle. After all in Winter lone wolf dies, but pack survievs. Winter is cruel, but it isn't mad cruelty. Maeve lost her soul too, but she didn't lose her feelings.

Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2013, 07:05:37 PM

Quote

When Bob talks about soul sharing in WN he only mentions Harry sharing his souls with Susan, Murphy, and Lash. None of those are "bad" relationships so he probably wasn't losing his soul...

  I do not remember it as sharing souls so much as hugging, exchanges of affection restore the soul.. Thus because Harry got a bit worried when he found out that soul fire runs off of his soul, Bob told him that "human" contact and affection restores it again.  However as of CD, Harry says what Bob says is a start, but in truth he didn't know much about it, that a soul or souls are much more and much more complicated than Bob's simple explanation.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 06, 2013, 07:11:32 PM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 06, 2013, 06:02:48 PM

Maybe...the WoJ does say that a human can lose their soul. I'm not sure if that was meant metaphorically though (see my note on the Denarians).

When Bob talks about soul sharing in WN he only mentions Harry sharing his souls with Susan, Murphy, and Lash. None of those are "bad" relationships so he probably wasn't losing his soul...

Bob says that it's soul exchanging so wouldn't that mean that even if interacting with Mortals gave you bits of soul you would swap some back?

Hmmm...

It's not stated anywhere in CD that Mab has a soul. The only mention of it was in the KC WoJ and he says he isn't sure. I'll grant that it's ambiguous.

The WoJ specifically does not state that Mab is unchangeable. In fact it specifically states that beings without Free Will can become something more. That's the whole point of my theory.

I think that the change that Odin went through with the Kringle Mantle is waaay different than the "growing a soul" change. For one it doesn't really make sense it the context of MW's quote. After all she changed (she became Baba Yaga) so why is she dissing Mab for interacting with mortals too much? Also, neither Odin nor MW gained Free Will from their changes. It also doesn't make sense with the WoJ about the beings themselves not changing but our understanding of them changing. Gaining Free Will and a soul is very much a change of the being.

I don't think Mab has to be willing. The process of convincing a human and giving a being without a soul a soul are two very different things. The mortals aren't trying to convince Mab to change. That would be impossible. They are just unconciously giving a soul. No convincing involved at all. 

The WoJ wasn't from Mabs perspective. It's not Mab herself saying that. It is a direct statement from the author that Mab wouldn't give a crap if she had to sacrifice anyone in Winter.

Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.

I have to disagree with your conclusions here. Sometimes the person most willing to sacrifice themselves and everything they have is the person driven by love.

Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.

the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 07:24:51 PM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 06, 2013, 06:02:48 PM

Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.

You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know ;D

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2013, 07:35:03 PM

Quote from: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 07:24:51 PM

You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know ;D

  No, but since Mother Winter doesn't have as much or any contact with humanity like Mab, it is hard to say how good her judgement is on the matter.  As Mother Summer explained, for all the contact etc with humanity, at the end of the day, the Fae are still not human.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Rasins on March 06, 2013, 09:26:28 PM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 06, 2013, 06:02:48 PM

The WoJ wasn't from Mabs perspective. It's not Mab herself saying that. It is a direct statement from the author that Mab wouldn't give a crap if she had to sacrifice anyone in Winter.

Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.

I don't see it that way.  I believe that she DOES give a crap, but that if it were necessary she wouldn't have any problem with it.  Not the same as not caring about it.  Then when you involve family, feelings are really different.  She was OBVIOUSLY upset about having to have her daughter killed.  Not that she wasn't going to do it, but she didn't want to do it.  It was necessary and it served as a statement to the supernatural community.  Both that she was even willing to do what needed to be done, even against family, and that her knew Knight could handle it.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 06, 2013, 09:39:19 PM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 06, 2013, 07:11:32 PM

I have to disagree with your conclusions here. Sometimes the person most willing to sacrifice themselves and everything they have is the person driven by love.

Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.

the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for.

I'm having trouble with your line of thinking here, (although Ms Duck, you have my utmost respect).  I think Mab guards the Gate because it is part of what she is.  There is nothing to even hint she cares in the slightest for Earth or mortals - both are inconsequential, except for rare occasions when she can utilize one mortal or another toward her purpose.  The outsiders are a threat to the fae as much as humankind, but I genuinely don't know if that matters to Mab.  She is who and what she is and does what she has to do in whatever ways she deems appropriate, (those ways, imo, are often objectionable).

I followed other threads where posters argued that Mab shouldn't be considered evil, because she isn't human and evil is a human concept.  I have trouble not thinking of Mab as evil, because I am human and think in those terms.  But as I am not above self-contradiction, I cannot imagine thinking of Mab as heroic, (another human concept), even if she were to die and by doing so saved Earth and humankind.  Is it heroic to die and happen to save something that means nothing to you at the same time?

Quote from: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 07:24:51 PM

You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know ;D

Titania can't lie either and she said Mab believes in reason, logic and calculation and MW said Mab is a too much of a romantic.    I get sooo confused.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Rasins on March 06, 2013, 09:43:34 PM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 06, 2013, 09:39:19 PM

I followed other threads where posters argued that Mab shouldn't be considered evil, because she isn't human and evil is a human concept.  I have trouble not thinking of Mab as evil, because I am human and think in those terms.  But as I am not above self-contradiction, I cannot imagine thinking of Mab as heroic, (another human concept), even if she were to die and by doing so saved Earth and humankind.  Is it heroic to die and happen to save something that means nothing to you at the same time?

You mean kind of like equating Mab to a grenade.  It's purpose is to blow something up and kill.  If in doing so, it ends the war, is the grenade a hero?

Typically no.

At the same time, a grende while extremely dangereous, it it not evil.  It just IS.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 06, 2013, 11:23:08 PM

Quote from: Rasins on March 06, 2013, 09:43:34 PM

At the same time, a grende while extremely dangereous, it it not evil.  It just IS.

A grenade has one purpose - it go BOOM.  It makes no determination of the appropriate time to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate place to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate way to go boom.  A grenade just IS, but Mab IS, while making determinations.

Mab had to prove to Harry that his debt had been transferred to her, so she caused him to stab himself in the hand with a letter opener.  Then (SK) -

Quote

"Your hand yet pains you?" she asked.
"What do you think?"
Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up
through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart. It took my breath, and I felt my heart skip a beat, two, before it labored into rhythm again. I gasped and swayed...
"I did that just for spite."

Then regarding the punishment of Lloyd Slate (Changes) -

Quote

"For a time, I was contented to torment him to the edge of sanity. Then I set out to see how far over the edge a mortal could go."

Yes, I know he committed treason.  Yes, I know she needed to deter others from acting against her.  But...

I have a difficult time getting the warm and fuzzies for Mab, imaging she's regrowing a soul, or even amassing a big bunch of respect for her, when I consider many of the "appropriate" methods she employs to achieve her purpose. 

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 06, 2013, 11:57:45 PM

the difference is this grenade is self aware, and while we can debate morality or soulness has made decisions that limit civilian casualties as well as placed herself in considerable danger at times.

there is some one home there, folks.

 ;)

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Fox on March 07, 2013, 12:18:05 AM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 06, 2013, 11:23:08 PM

A grenade has one purpose - it go BOOM.  It makes no determination of the appropriate time to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate place to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate way to go boom.  A grenade just IS, but Mab IS, while making determinations.

Mab had to prove to Harry that his debt had been transferred to her, so she caused him to stab himself in the hand with a letter opener.  Then (SK) - Then regarding the punishment of Lloyd Slate (Changes) -Yes, I know he committed treason.  Yes, I know she needed to deter others from acting against her.  But...

I have a difficult time getting the warm and fuzzies for Mab, imaging she's regrowing a soul, or even amassing a big bunch of respect for her, when I consider many of the "appropriate" methods she employs to achieve her purpose.

You're kind of assuming that negative emotions or behavior have nothing to do with the soul then, only the good stuff?  What about hate?  I'd think that irrational hatred would be as surprising in Mab as affection.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 07, 2013, 12:32:13 AM

Quote from: Fox on March 07, 2013, 12:18:05 AM

You're kind of assuming that negative emotions or behavior have nothing to do with the soul then, only the good stuff?  What about hate?  I'd think that irrational hatred would be as surprising in Mab as affection.

I never considered Mab having a soul, (and still don't really), until the question of Molly's soul arose, since we've been led to believe the Sidhe don't have souls and Molly is Sidhe now.

I associate cold, cruel, predatory, etc. with the behavior of the Winter Sidhe, but not hate.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 02:08:56 AM

Quote from: Mira on March 06, 2013, 03:55:50 PM

  I don't think it has anything to do with Mab's strength...  I am willing to be that Maeve was allowed to pick her Knight just like Lily was able to chose Fix.

I agree with you there. In normal circumstances, it is the lady that select the knight and in most circumstances the queen did not interfere to much.

Now, the questions: Why does the queen not interferes in a knight selection? Is the selection of a knight is beneath a Queen's notice?

We know that Slate is weak. And I assume we agree that Mab knows about Slate's weak nature before SK. Why then, did she not order Maeve to replace Slate? If a knight have to be powerful and capable like Harry and if such a knight is critical for the winter court as a whole, how come a mediocre knight like slate can hold the job?

I understand why Titania did not interferes with Lily. She simply didn't care. But Cd show that Mab did care about Maeve. Why then, did she let Maeve have a weak knight?

The only answer that I can think of for these questions is the conclusion that a powerful knight like Harry is undesirable under normal circumstances. It is to much trouble to kept a knight like Harry unless there is a definitive problem that needs such a knight. This let me to think that Harry may be in danger once he fulfills his duties to winter. He won't be needed anymore and he will starts to be more trouble than he is worth, But since Mab is a strong Queen herself, she'll probably find a way to make use of a dangerous knight like Harry. A less secure and capable Queen however, might view Harry as a threat and might find it easier to terminate him either by killing or use drugs and seks to keep him insensible.

Butter's comment about the mantle shutting down Harry's ability to feel pain is Mab's way to control the knight supports this theory. If Mab have to regulates the knight so he won't grow to powerful , it means Mab have reason to fear her knight.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 02:36:48 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 06, 2013, 11:57:45 PM

the difference is this grenade is self aware, and while we can debate morality or soulness has made decisions that limit civilian casualties as well as placed herself in considerable danger at times.

there is some one home there, folks.

 ;)

If I have to bet money, I'll bet money that someone is home there.

To assume that Mab is 100% force of nature means Mab is sort of a high level Anti Outsider weapon system with super AI programming. But the indications after CD did not supports this theory.

1. Mab is previously mortal. Human to be exact. And Free wil rule states that Mab the human can always choose. In other words a complete annialation of a human's soul and free wil is not so easily done. There is always a choice.

2. her unwillingness to kill Maeve directly is a very illogical and inafficient way to terminate Nemesis's threat. The queen's mantle, the programming she is installed with would have killed Maeve in the stone Altar and replace her with Sarrisa the moment she found out that Maeve is infected. But Mab did not do that. She take the harder path and hire Harry to do the job. It is the limit of what the mantle allow her to express her love, but the fact she is able to take the harder and less logical path shows that someone is still inside.

Textual evidence leans to the fact that Mab still have what remains of her soul. Will Jim gave us the background story of Mab's assention? It would help our understanding a lot. 

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 02:50:54 AM

Quote from: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 07:24:51 PM

You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know ;D

Hmm? What do you mean? Or are you talking about how Mother Summer said that you need a heart for it to freeze?

Quote from: Rasins on March 06, 2013, 09:26:28 PM

I don't see it that way.  I believe that she DOES give a crap, but that if it were necessary she wouldn't have any problem with it.  Not the same as not caring about it.  Then when you involve family, feelings are really different.  She was OBVIOUSLY upset about having to have her daughter killed.  Not that she wasn't going to do it, but she didn't want to do it.  It was necessary and it served as a statement to the supernatural community.  Both that she was even willing to do what needed to be done, even against family, and that her knew Knight could handle it.

I think we're interpreting the WoJ I posted very very differently.
 

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 06, 2013, 09:39:19 PM

I'm having trouble with your line of thinking here, (although Ms Duck, you have my utmost respect).  I think Mab guards the Gate because it is part of what she is.  There is nothing to even hint she cares in the slightest for Earth or mortals - both are inconsequential, except for rare occasions when she can utilize one mortal or another toward her purpose.  The outsiders are a threat to the fae as much as humankind, but I genuinely don't know if that matters to Mab.  She is who and what she is and does what she has to do in whatever ways she deems appropriate, (those ways, imo, are often objectionable).

I followed other threads where posters argued that Mab shouldn't be considered evil, because she isn't human and evil is a human concept.  I have trouble not thinking of Mab as evil, because I am human and think in those terms.  But as I am not above self-contradiction, I cannot imagine thinking of Mab as heroic, (another human concept), even if she were to die and by doing so saved Earth and humankind.  Is it heroic to die and happen to save something that means nothing to you at the same time?

Titania can't lie either and she said Mab believes in reason, logic and calculation and MW said Mab is a too much of a romantic.    I get sooo confused.

When you ask if Mab is evil, are you talking about in-universe our out-of-universe? The distinction is important.

And probably to a passionate being like Titania Mab is logical and calculating but to a being like MW Mab is too soft.

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 07, 2013, 12:32:13 AM

I never considered Mab having a soul, (and still don't really), until the question of Molly's soul arose, since we've been led to believe the Sidhe don't have souls and Molly is Sidhe now.

I associate cold, cruel, predatory, etc. with the behavior of the Winter Sidhe, but not hate.

The redcap certiainly seemed hatefull of Harry.

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 02:36:48 AM

If I have to bet money, I'll bet money that someone is home there.

To assume that Mab is 100% force of nature means Mab is sort of a high level Anti Outsider weapon system with super AI programming. But the indications after CD did not supports this theory.

1. Mab is previously mortal. Human to be exact. And Free wil rule states that Mab the human can always choose. In other words a complete annialation of a human's soul and free wil is not so easily done. There is always a choice.

2. her unwillingness to kill Maeve directly is a very illogical and inafficient way to terminate Nemesis's threat. The queen's mantle, the programming she is installed with would have killed Maeve in the stone Altar and replace her with Sarrisa the moment she found out that Maeve is infected. But Mab did not do that. She take the harder path and hire Harry to do the job. It is the limit of what the mantle allow her to express her love, but the fact she is able to take the harder and less logical path shows that someone is still inside.

Textual evidence leans to the fact that Mab still have what remains of her soul. Will Jim gave us the background story of Mab's assention? It would help our understanding a lot.

I thought you disagreed with me on this?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 03:00:48 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 02:50:54 AM

I thought you disagreed with me on this?

I agree that it is very likely (Not certain mind you, just very likely) Mab still have a soul. What I originally disagree about is the idea that Mab's interaction with Harry and Sarrisa is enough to rekindle it. Just those two, in the time they have and with the kind of interaction they have with Mab, is just not enough to rekindle Mab's soul. I did not mean to say that Mab did not have a soul or that her soul cannot be rekindled, just that Harry and Sarrisa is not enough to do it.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 03:04:01 AM

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 03:00:48 AM

I agree that it is very likely (Not certain mind you, just very likely) Mab still have a soul. What I originally disagree about is the idea that Mab's interaction with Harry and Sarrisa is enough to rekindle it. Just those two, in the time they have and with the kind of interaction they have with Mab, is just not enough to rekindle Mab's soul. I did not mean to say that Mab did not have a soul or that her soul cannot be rekindled, just that Harry and Sarrisa is not enough to do it.

What about Harry and Sarrisa's interactions combined with other mortals from before the time of the books?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 07, 2013, 03:07:32 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 02:50:54 AM

When you ask if Mab is evil, are you talking about in-universe our out-of-universe? The distinction is important.

Pardon? 

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 02:50:54 AM

The redcap certiainly seemed hatefull of Harry.

I just took it as an unwillingness to let a lesser being get the better of him.  When he had a chance to kill him outright, he marked him for the "Hunt" and went away.  I think hate would have required him to witness if not assist with killing Harry

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 03:20:06 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 03:04:01 AM

What about Harry and Sarrisa's interactions combined with other mortals from before the time of the books?

Well, we have Mab the human more than 1,000 years ago. After 1,000 years have pass, we got the current Mab. It kind of suggest that all of her interactions with other mortals did not have much effect.

This is why I wanted the background story on Mab's assention. If Mab took up the Winter queen's mantle because Mab the human love the world and she believe that it is the only way to protect this reality from the outsiders then it is unlikely that Harry or any other mortal for that Matter to effect her soul. Unlikely because being the cold and cruel winter queen is exactly what she chose to be. If Mab is satisfied with her current fate, it is also unlikely for her to change, because with the remaining free wil she has, she chose to be the winter queen. She has no regrets. . If that is the case, nothing can change her untill she wanted to change.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 07, 2013, 04:36:05 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 02:50:54 AM

Hmm? What do you mean? Or are you talking about how Mother Summer said that you need a heart for it to freeze?

The one when Harry had just summoned her just before she attacks. Mother Winter called Mab romantic.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 07, 2013, 05:04:36 AM

Quote

I understand why Titania did not interferes with Lily. She simply didn't care. But Cd show that Mab did care about Maeve. Why then, did she let Maeve have a weak knight?

I think Titania did care, but actually Lily chose well, Fix has proven himself a good Summer Knight.  I also think different things are required from the Summer Knight verses the Winter one.

Quote

The one when Harry had just summoned her just before she attacks. Mother Winter called Mab romantic.

Which implies some human feeling.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Gman on March 07, 2013, 05:08:26 AM

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 02:08:56 AM

I agree with you there. In normal circumstances, it is the lady that select the knight and in most circumstances the queen did not interfere to much.

Now, the questions: Why does the queen not interferes in a knight selection? Is the selection of a knight is beneath a Queen's notice?

We know that Slate is weak. And I assume we agree that Mab knows about Slate's weak nature before SK. Why then, did she not order Maeve to replace Slate? If a knight have to be powerful and capable like Harry and if such a knight is critical for the winter court as a whole, how come a mediocre knight like slate can hold the job?

I understand why Titania did not interferes with Lily. She simply didn't care. But Cd show that Mab did care about Maeve. Why then, did she let Maeve have a weak knight?

The only answer that I can think of for these questions is the conclusion that a powerful knight like Harry is undesirable under normal circumstances. It is to much trouble to kept a knight like Harry unless there is a definitive problem that needs such a knight. This let me to think that Harry may be in danger once he fulfills his duties to winter. He won't be needed anymore and he will starts to be more trouble than he is worth, But since Mab is a strong Queen herself, she'll probably find a way to make use of a dangerous knight like Harry. A less secure and capable Queen however, might view Harry as a threat and might find it easier to terminate him either by killing or use drugs and seks to keep him insensible.

Butter's comment about the mantle shutting down Harry's ability to feel pain is Mab's way to control the knight supports this theory. If Mab have to regulates the knight so he won't grow to powerful , it means Mab have reason to fear her knight.

Perhaps choosing a Knight is one of the Lady's duties and not the Queen's. The Ladys perhaps deal more with the mortal world on a day to day basis and the Queens deal with larger issues and the nevernever. Under normal circumstances a mediocre Knight and a competent Knight may not be a big deal. Harry is Starborn and a Fulcrum. I think Maeve did not want a Knight that could stand up to her and wanted a toy to play with. Mab probably would like a competent Knight at all times.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Gman on March 07, 2013, 05:12:23 AM

Quote from: Mira on March 07, 2013, 05:04:36 AM

I think Titania did care, but actually Lily chose well, Fix has proven himself a good Summer Knight.  I also think different things are required from the Summer Knight verses the Winter one.Which implies some human feeling.

I think Titania was still grieving about Aurora's death and did not spend enough time instructing Lily. Lily seemed real ignorant about the Outsiders, Nemesis and the role of Winter against the Outsiders. Fix does seem to be a decent SK. Lily seems to be nice but a bit incompetent.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 07, 2013, 05:28:36 AM

Quote from: Gman on March 07, 2013, 05:12:23 AM

I think Titania was still grieving about Aurora's death and did not spend enough time instructing Lily. Lily seemed real ignorant about the Outsiders, Nemesis and the role of Winter against the Outsiders. Fix does seem to be a decent SK. Lily seems to be nice but a bit incompetent.

  Which shows a weakness in the way Ladies are chosen..  Poor Lily had no choice it would appear, though I am wondering if the human part of her did, and the mantle was thrust upon her.  Aurora, being Titania's daughter was supposedly born into it,  meaning when Titania moved up to Queen she became Lady, she was prepped for the job like Sarissa, even Molly was prepped..  Mab saw to that, maybe because she does have a cold analytical nature and planned ahead.  In contrast Titania going with the passion and emotion of the heart thing, though knowing her daughter was mad could not bring herself to have a replacement trained?   

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 09:44:30 PM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 07, 2013, 03:07:32 AM

Pardon? 
I just took it as an unwillingness to let a lesser being get the better of him.  When he had a chance to kill him outright, he marked him for the "Hunt" and went away.  I think hate would have required him to witness if not assist with killing Harry

For an example, look at this WoJ:

Quote

For the Dresden Files, the whole point of The Almighty positive good forces that are out there is that free will is important and they respect that and you've gotta have it and use it.  That's the entire point.  They are a force of freedom.  And it's the bad guys who are going around doing whatever they can to abrogate free will.  So for me, where you draw the line is what defines where good stops and evil starts is by how much you're taking away free will and how much you're enabling it.

Obviously to Jim Free Will is extremely important for examining good and evil in the Dresdenverse. I on the other hand to not even believe Free Will exists in RL. Obviously this means that my thoughts on good and evil are going to be very different than what I think is the objective truth in the Dresdenverse.

Basically, are you asking about my thoughts or what I think is true in the Dresdenverse?

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 03:20:06 AM

Well, we have Mab the human more than 1,000 years ago. After 1,000 years have pass, we got the current Mab. It kind of suggest that all of her interactions with other mortals did not have much effect.

This is why I wanted the background story on Mab's assention. If Mab took up the Winter queen's mantle because Mab the human love the world and she believe that it is the only way to protect this reality from the outsiders then it is unlikely that Harry or any other mortal for that Matter to effect her soul. Unlikely because being the cold and cruel winter queen is exactly what she chose to be. If Mab is satisfied with her current fate, it is also unlikely for her to change, because with the remaining free wil she has, she chose to be the winter queen. She has no regrets. . If that is the case, nothing can change her untill she wanted to change.

You're assuming that the current Mab is the product of all 1000 years. What if she becomes the Winter Queen, then 500 years of being the Winter Queen slowly smother her soul (down to either a small ember or nothing) then 500 years of increased interacting with mortals fans the flames until we get the current Mab.

I'm symplifying enormously here but you get the idea.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 12:58:04 AM

also, Mab became Queen of Winter 1,000 years ago. That doesn't say she wasn't Queen of Air and Darkness 1600 years ago, or maybe even Queen of Ghosts 500 years before that...

she may have been sidhe much longer then she was winter queen, ya know :D

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 08, 2013, 01:14:25 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 12:58:04 AM

also, Mab became Queen of Winter 1,000 years ago. That doesn't say she wasn't Queen of Air and Darkness 1600 years ago, or maybe even Queen of Ghosts 500 years before that...

she may have been sidhe much longer then she was winter queen, ya know :D

Well the WoJ implied that it was specifically the Fae Mantle that was causing her to "become the fun-loving Mab we know today" so thats why I was assuming it.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 01:49:22 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 09:44:30 PM

Obviously to Jim Free Will is extremely important for examining good and evil in the Dresdenverse. I on the other hand to not even believe Free Will exists in RL. Obviously this means that my thoughts on good and evil are going to be very different than what I think is the objective truth in the Dresdenverse.

Basically, are you asking about my thoughts or what I think is true in the Dresdenverse?

I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

But, what I was asking was in response to Ms Duck's statement -

Quote

Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.
the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for.

- whether Mab, because of her purpose guarding the Gate, should be considered heroic if she dies pursuing that purpose?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Duncan Cain on March 08, 2013, 01:56:10 AM

Mab is not evil. She is just an firm believer in the statement “the end justifies the means”. In a way, she is like Marcone taken to extremes.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Hollorr on March 08, 2013, 02:12:44 AM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 01:49:22 AM

I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

But, what I was asking was in response to Ms Duck's statement - - whether Mab, because of her purpose guarding the Gate, should be considered heroic if she dies pursuing that purpose?

Okay you "I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course." what if I disagree?
Well I see your point but I disagree on a few points.
In that case is beowulf heroic? or did he just go kill because thats what he did as a job?
I think it depends on what you think is heroic. Mab isn't a monster and she isn't a hero...I guess you would call her a kreia from starwars knights of the old republic.....if you don't know the game...Kreia is the mentor of the Exile in the game..she is 1 dark scary gray lady...don't mess with her.
anyway I believe mab isn't evil neither is she a good person....Mab is someone you need..doesn't matter if she is pure evil or good...seems like how Mab is played is something like a gray hero...like Batman or Green archer.

"Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.
the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for."

hmm sounds like a hero turned into a rogue hero basically a Green arrow new tv show...willing to use anyone and ready to kill ppl.
A anime that is like this is called aesthetic of a rogue hero   here is a trailer for the anime if anyone wants to check it out.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33-a0MQHC8

Anyway how to deal with Mab is like dealing with anyone that has power...you go in  with a calm mind and try to make a deal/make your case...if she wants you dead or out of the job there is nothing u can do.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 02:20:16 AM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 01:49:22 AM

I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

But, what I was asking was in response to Ms Duck's statement - - whether Mab, because of her purpose guarding the Gate, should be considered heroic if she dies pursuing that purpose?

--absolutely.

its a WAG, but I think Mab is going to die soon and she knows it. Molly was not intended to be the next winter lady; Molly is intended to be the next winter queen.

that, and arguments about 'good and evil' when dealing with gods tends to be a bit mushy, IMO. it all comes down to the person's perspective, and the person's opinion...

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: blauregen on March 08, 2013, 02:30:09 AM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 01:49:22 AM

I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

According to various anthropocentric definitions, yes, she is definitely evil. She is likely heretical too, depending on your religious viewpoint.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Hollorr on March 08, 2013, 02:45:11 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 02:20:16 AM

--absolutely.

its a WAG, but I think Mab is going to die soon and she knows it. Molly was not intended to be the next winter lady; Molly is intended to be the next winter queen.

that, and arguments about 'good and evil' when dealing with gods tends to be a bit mushy, IMO. it all comes down to the person's perspective, and the person's opinion...

Quote from: blauregen on March 08, 2013, 02:30:09 AM

According to various anthropocentric definitions, yes, she is definitely evil. She is likely heretical too, depending on your religious viewpoint.

Then in that case....I say mab is good!...since most are gonna call her evil! EVIL I say....lol

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 02:50:22 AM

Quote from: Hollorr on March 08, 2013, 02:12:44 AM

kreia from starwars knights of the old republic.....if you don't know the game...Kreia is the mentor of the Exile in the game..she is 1 dark scary gray lady...don't mess with her.
 gray hero...like Batman or Green archer.
Green arrow new tv show...
A anime that is like this is called aesthetic of a rogue hero   here is a trailer for the anime if anyone wants to check it out.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33-a0MQHC8

Anyway how to deal with Mab is like dealing with anyone that has power...you go in  with a calm mind and try to make a deal/make your case...if she wants you dead or out of the job there is nothing u can do.

_{Oh Hollorr, I am so not cool.  DF is my first fandom obsession in many moons... (I have seen Batman and enjoy Green Arrow, but am a strictly a viewer - no deep meanings.)}

It would be easier for me to consider a Mab a hero for sacrificing her life and saving mankind, if saving mankind mattered to her.  I think if she needed the dead bodies of every man, woman and child on Earth in order to fulfill her purpose, she wouldn't blink an eye.  I don't think her nature includes any protective impulses for mortals, so saving them might be a by-product of her possible life-sacrifice, but isn't the goal.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Duncan Cain on March 08, 2013, 02:51:52 AM

Mab has an important job, keeping Outsiders on the other side of the Gate. The best way to do that is to be totally pragmatic and not let emotions sway her decisions. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I wouldn’t like to face an Outsider. Even one of the lesser ones (He Who Walks With His Foot Up My Behind??). Even Harry’s opinion of Mab has changed since he realized her purpose.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: blauregen on March 08, 2013, 03:11:47 AM

Quote from: Hollorr on March 08, 2013, 02:45:11 AM

Then in that case....I say mab is good!...since most are gonna call her evil! EVIL I say....lol

From a welfarist perspective, and assuming that being overrun by outsiders is detrimental for human (or sentient (or in the DV (soul-having (or insiders as opposed to outsiders))) welfare, this is a justifiable position too. :)

We really have to consider this from an in-universe-perspective, and for this we first to have to determine what kind of fiction we are dealing with. In many fictional works, there exists absolute good and evil. An example would be the Star Wars Universe. As long as a Jedi stays on the light side of the Force, it isn't really important how many people he maims or kills, how much corruption she enables or how many atrocities he commits. He or she is by definition a good guy.

I am not sure whether the DV falls into this category.

Form the author, I got the impression that the question is - in the DV - centered around the preservation of free will, which conveniently appears to be a unique property of humans and select ex-humans. If we restrict it to that, then Mab is evil simply because she acts evil in trying to subvert this, regardless of any greater utility she may achieve this way. She has no qualms about using humans as means to an end.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: huangjimmy108 on March 08, 2013, 03:14:41 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 07, 2013, 09:44:30 PM

You're assuming that the current Mab is the product of all 1000 years. What if she becomes the Winter Queen, then 500 years of being the Winter Queen slowly smother her soul (down to either a small ember or nothing) then 500 years of increased interacting with mortals fans the flames until we get the current Mab.

I'm symplifying enormously here but you get the idea.

The problems with making such assumptions as you did is the side effects. If we apply your idea, it effects something else. That is the beauty of Jim's Dresden Files.

If we assume that Mab's soul could move up and down the spectrum from bright to dark during her tenure as the winter queen, you basically cheapens the corrupting power of the winter queen's mantle. Even the knight's mantle is already so powerfully corrupt as we saw in CD. The lady's mantle should be magnitudes more corruptive and Queens should be magnitudes more from the lady's.

If we assume that interactions with mortals could significantly brightens Mab's soul, and we must assume that it is significant because assumeing little will reduced the effect of moartal interactions itself, then we must assume that once upon a time Mab's soul is a lot darker than her current soul is.

If a soul that much darker than current Mab is redeemable, than the corruptive influence and the danger of total darkness becomes laughable. Even someone that is in deeper shit than Mab can be redeem, whats to worry about? And if Mab could move from a lot darker place to her current position, it will be easy for her to go fforewoard and brightens her soul even more. Why didn't she then?

You see how one assumption could open so many new can of worms?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 08, 2013, 03:49:03 AM

  The problem is Mab cannot be all sweetness and light, that is for Summer.  Mab is not without feeling, in her own way she grieves for her loses and loves, but it is her way.  She heads an army that fights an eternal enemy.  An enemy that wants one thing and one thing only, to be inside.  It is an enemy who will take advantage of any opening it sees in a heart beat.  I don't think it an accident that the Outsiders made an assault on Demonreach at the same time Maeve tried to make her move.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 06:01:45 AM

Quote from: Duncan Cain on March 08, 2013, 01:56:10 AM

Mab is not evil. She is just an firm believer in the statement “the end justifies the means”. In a way, she is like Marcone taken to extremes.

Not true. Marcone is evil. He chooses to build an empire based on the misery of others and chooses every day to keep it running. Others may use it for their own purposes and some of these purposes may even be labeled a greater good but Marcone himself is evil.

You may call Mab evil depending on your definition and a lot of her subjects probably are (again depending on your definition) but with Mab you can go for alien morality or a goal oriented morality and decide she is not.

You can not do that with Marcone. His goal is simply power. His means are evil.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 06:04:17 AM

Quote from: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 02:50:22 AM

_{Oh Hollorr, I am so not cool.  DF is my first fandom obsession in many moons... (I have seen Batman and enjoy Green Arrow, but am a strictly a viewer - no deep meanings.)}

It would be easier for me to consider a Mab a hero for sacrificing her life and saving mankind, if saving mankind mattered to her.  I think if she needed the dead bodies of every man, woman and child on Earth in order to fulfill her purpose, she wouldn't blink an eye.  I don't think her nature includes any protective impulses for mortals, so saving them might be a by-product of her possible life-sacrifice, but isn't the goal.

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 06:08:02 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 06:04:17 AM

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

Or maybe it is essential for the survival of earth that humanity does not.  ;D >:(

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: peregrine on March 08, 2013, 06:10:42 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 06:04:17 AM

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

But if your theory about magic and power is correct, that means that Mab needs us as much as we need to live.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: King Ash on March 08, 2013, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 06:04:17 AM

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

The term "evil" is a human point of view ;D

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 07:30:19 AM

Quote from: peregrine on March 08, 2013, 06:10:42 AM

But if your theory about magic and power is correct, that means that Mab needs us as much as we need to live.

nope.

Magic comes from life in the DF, not people alone. Humans are just nice efficient crunchy snacks. We can know this because its very likely Dragons predate humanity.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 11:57:04 AM

Quote from: King Ash on March 08, 2013, 06:37:17 AM

The term "evil" is a human point of view ;D

Actually it is a very confusing word as soon as you get close to it. Sometimes it is just an us versus them label. If you say it is a human point of view do you mean humanity for us?

If you say us = this reality or us = intelligent life then you can get to a definition of evil that includes the Sidhe.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 02:24:35 PM

Quote from: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 11:57:04 AM

Actually it is a very confusing word as soon as you get close to it. Sometimes it is just an us versus them label. If you say it is a human point of view do you mean humanity for us?

If you say us = this reality or us = intelligent life then you can get to a definition of evil that includes the Sidhe.

my definition of 'evil' is:

1) causing harm for the pleasure of it

2) having no concern for the harm you cause

Mab fits neither, as she pointed out to Harry about why he chose her in changes.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 03:13:35 PM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 06:04:17 AM

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

But I am very human.  In the case of the DV, Harry is human,(or perhaps technically, a mortal wizard possessing humanity).  He's made it his life's work to protect less powerful mortals/humans from more powerful entities.  I'd speculate that protecting the Earth at the expense of humanity wouldn't be his idea of an acceptable outcome, either.

Harry and Mab now share a common goal, keeping the Outsiders, outside, contained inside Demonreach and defeating any who aren't outside or contained.  I'm fairly confident that their ideas about how to prosecute the "war" against the Outsiders would diverge sharply if the fate of mortals were to become involved.

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 02:24:35 PM

my definition of 'evil' is:

1) causing harm for the pleasure of it

2) having no concern for the harm you cause

Mab fits neither, as she pointed out to Harry about why he chose her in changes.

The scene that makes me question #1 is from SK, after Mab causes Harry to put a letter opener through his hand -

Quote

Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart. It took my breath, and I felt my heart skip a beat, two, before it labored into rhythm again. I gasped and swayed,and only leaning against the door kept me from falling down completely.
"Dammit," I muttered, trying to keep my voice down. "We had a deal."
"I agreed not to punish you for refusing me, wizard. I agreed not to punish or harass you by proxy." Mab smiled. "I did that just for spite."

You may argue that Mab must make sure to seem all scary, but making Harry stab himself with the letter opener, and then causing his arm to twist when he tried to remove it, (which increased the magnitude of the pain), took care of that.  The bit at the end, the pain she inflicted for spite, the pain that made his heart skip a couple of beats, is where I see evil.

The idea about Mab "having no concern for the harm" she causes, is tough, because Mab's idea of harm is not the same as a mortal's idea of harm.  Things that mortals suffer at her hand, to her may simply seem like utility.  It seems that she's been preparing Molly to be something for many years, (without Molly's knowledge or consent, as far as we know), and presented Molly's fate as WL as a positive thing when speaking to Harry. When Molly faces her family, will she not experience deep pain and regret?  Is Mab concerned about Molly's pain and regret?  I don't think she is.

Of course, Mab doesn't see herself as evil.  I just happen to disagree.
 

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 03:22:54 PM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 02:24:35 PM

my definition of 'evil' is:

1) causing harm for the pleasure of it

2) having no concern for the harm you cause

Mab fits neither, as she pointed out to Harry about why he chose her in changes.

Mab hurting Harry out of spite in Summer Knight fits that definition though.
Torturing Slate might have some justifications and was not only done for the pleasure of it but pleasure was certainly aimed for as well.

Mab is not serving some abstract evil and her purpose is actually not evil at all. She does not asks her knight to be evil (he can sort that out for himself) and she does not go out of her way to do evil but....

She does not go out of her way to avoid doing evil and she sometimes finds pleasure in doing evil, causing harm and she certainly does not have any concern for the harm she causes while trying to achieve her goals.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 08, 2013, 06:25:07 PM

Quote

Mab hurting Harry out of spite in Summer Knight fits that definition though.
Torturing Slate might have some justifications and was not only done for the pleasure of it but pleasure was certainly aimed for as well.

  It was a painful point, but she was out to prove to Harry that she indeed had power over him.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 08, 2013, 06:35:02 PM

I think it all depends on whether you think "evil" is a matter of behavior or nature.

For example, is sexual cannibalism in insects evil? After all, in humans, that behavior would make a woman a serial killer...

Despite her appearance, Mab is no more motivated by human ethics and ideals than those insects are. She may still have some human feelings, sure, but she doesn't operate on a level remotely similar to humanity.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 06:39:02 PM

Quote from: Mira on March 08, 2013, 06:25:07 PM

  It was a painful point, but she was out to prove to Harry that she indeed had power over him.

Having him stab himself was proof.  Making him hurt himself more instead of allowing him to remove the letter opener was additional verification - as if he needed it.  The heartbeat skipping pain was spite, not a lesson - Mab said so. 

She inflicted pain for no purpose, other than spite, on a weaker being, and to me that is evil.  Talk about Winter's nature if you like.  To me, the ability and willingness to inflict pain on another, who is weaker than you, for no purpose, is evil.  The fact that Harry was beholden to her when she inflicted pain in spite, doesn't make one whit of difference.  That's just abuse of position - hardly a sterling character trait.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 06:44:33 PM

I see the letter opener as a spanking, really.

Harry got the message loud and clear.

slade was made an example of.

Am I arguing in favor of absolutism? Utterly not, I am of the bleeding heart liberal faction.

But if doing such things is evil, 95% of human governments in history are evil.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 07:28:16 PM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 06:44:33 PM

I see the letter opener as a spanking, really.
Harry got the message loud and clear.
slade was made an example of.
Am I arguing in favor of absolutism? Utterly not, I am of the bleeding heart liberal faction.
But if doing such things is evil, 95% of human governments in history are evil.

Not really a response, but ok...

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: tacorrific on March 08, 2013, 07:39:19 PM

I don't think that Mab not just getting rid of Maeve shows a change in what she is.  Summer and Winter are opposing forces, but they have similar natures.  Tatania knew that something was up with Aurora but was unable to do anything about it just like Mab.  But Mab has seen what Aurora tried to do so she made plans to deal with Maeve if it ever got to the point of no return.  Even then Mab tries to give Maeve a choice to come back to her.  I think that Mab's reluctance to deal with Maeve has to do with the fact that she is her daughter, a connection that is hardwired into all living things.  In the end she allows what must be done to be done for the good of all even if she doesn't like it.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 08, 2013, 07:59:36 PM

Quote from: tacorrific on March 08, 2013, 07:39:19 PM

But Mab has seen what Aurora tried to do so she made plans to deal with Maeve if it ever got to the point of no return.

I'm sure that the sense of balance the courts need was served by the fact that an ally of a representative of Winter "did the job".

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: BlahBlah on March 08, 2013, 09:11:25 PM

Quote from: Griffyn612 on March 04, 2013, 08:30:28 PM

I like to think of the Dresdenverse soul as source of light.  A typical mortal's soul shines bright, and is the shape of their body, for lack of a better form.

Like Bob has described, mortals swap bits of their soul's constantly. When they hug, emote, get jiggy, or whatever else brings them close.

I think for beings like Mab, who started out with a mortal soul, their soul slowly fades over time.  Maybe not in size, but in brightness.  Like a light fading.  Eventually, like Butcher describes it, it can seem to completely dissipate, where its no longer there.

I think in Mab's case, and most of the Fae, they still retain their soul initially, but it fades.  But I think there's still enough there to interact with other souls around them.

In this case, Mab has had regular interaction with Sarissa for years, and I'm sure on some level, they've either shared or reflected each other's souls.  Mab has also had more contact with the mortal world through Harry, who we all know is big on soul.  And she's now bonded to Harry through the WK mantle ceremony, and the mantle itself.

So the idea that any remnant soul hasn't been affected by those around her seems unlikely.  It seems more likely that whatever soul she has left has been influenced by Sarissa, Harry, and any other mortals.  And since Sarissa and Harry both seem to be big softies, I'd say that's had a softening affect on Mab.

I don't know that she's gotten her soul 'back', so much as what she had left has been slightly rekindled by her relations with mortals.  I don't think she's going soft and fuzzy on us any time soon, but I'd say it allows her enough to remember the feelings she might once have had.  The light of her soul might still be dim, but it might be brighter than before.

A wonderful theory.  It is also consistent with Odin's conversation with Harry at the bar.  Odin hints that Mantles do not necessarily change their owner, and recommends friendship and spending time outside of Arctis Tor.  I was always a little puzzled by this conversation; it seemed tangent to the discussion about Mantles and DR.  But if friends and human interaction are essential to preserving your soul, then Odin is essentially saying that Harry needs plenty of both.

Note too, how Mab takes Molly to her apartment instead of Arctis Tor after Harry forces her promise on DR. 

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 10:29:12 PM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 08, 2013, 06:44:33 PM

I see the letter opener as a spanking, really.

A bit rough for my taste.

Quote

Harry got the message loud and clear.
slade was made an example of.

Sure, Mab does not do evil for the sake of some abstract absolute evil. Making an example of someone can be quite effective but it can be seen as an evil act.

Quote

Am I arguing in favor of absolutism? Utterly not, I am of the bleeding heart liberal faction.

But if doing such things is evil, 95% of human governments in history are evil.

They probably were. Read enough history and you will see  :)

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 08, 2013, 10:32:49 PM

Quote from: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 10:29:12 PM

They probably were. Read enough history and you will see  :)

I won't argue with the moral judgement here, but if that's the case, doesn't that force you into a place where you're just a victim of what is inevitably a corrupt establishment?

I don't want to dispute it, that just seems like a rather depressing worldview to me...

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 11:05:54 PM

Quote from: KrelianZG on March 08, 2013, 10:32:49 PM

I won't argue with the moral judgement here, but if that's the case, doesn't that force you into a place where you're just a victim of what is inevitably a corrupt establishment?

I don't want to dispute it, that just seems like a rather depressing worldview to me...

Current government were I live leaves much to wish for but it is not that bad if you compare it to 95% of the governments in history.

There has been moral progress so I am not that depressed about it.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: KrelianZG on March 08, 2013, 11:09:52 PM

Quote from: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 11:05:54 PM

Current government were I live leaves much to wish for but it is not that bad if you compare it to 95% of the governments in history.

There has been moral progress so I am not that depressed about it.

I'll leave this after this post so we don't get into TT territory, but a lot of governments are totally acceptable to their people, but condemned by the outside world. And vice versa. And everything in-between.

As far as the topic is concerned, "evil" is very obviously a subjective definition for us. But in the DV, I think Mab is very much NOT in the "evil" part of the supernatural spectrum.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mortax on March 08, 2013, 11:46:18 PM

Quote from: KrelianZG on March 08, 2013, 11:09:52 PM

I'll leave this after this post so we don't get into TT territory, but a lot of governments are totally acceptable to their people, but condemned by the outside world. And vice versa. And everything in-between.

As far as the topic is concerned, "evil" is very obviously a subjective definition for us. But in the DV, I think Mab is very much NOT in the "evil" part of the supernatural spectrum.

"Luke, you're going to discover that a great many truths we hold dear greatly depend on our point of view."  Obi-Wan Kenobi

Pretty much sums that one up. :)

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 09, 2013, 12:57:11 AM

Quote from: Arjan on March 08, 2013, 10:29:12 PM

A bit rough for my taste.Sure, Mab does not do evil for the sake of some abstract absolute evil. Making an example of someone can be quite effective but it can be seen as an evil act. They probably were. Read enough history and you will see  :)

Oh ive read the history, hence the comment.

but I'm not sure I agree as to the judgment of history on the whole good/ evil thing.

 ;D

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Hollorr on March 09, 2013, 01:15:50 AM

"Oh Hollorr, I am so not cool.  DF is my first fandom obsession in many moons... (I have seen Batman and enjoy Green Arrow, but am a strictly a viewer - no deep meanings.)

It would be easier for me to consider a Mab a hero for sacrificing her life and saving mankind, if saving mankind mattered to her.  I think if she needed the dead bodies of every man, woman and child on Earth in order to fulfill her purpose, she wouldn't blink an eye.  I don't think her nature includes any protective impulses for mortals, so saving them might be a by-product of her possible life-sacrifice, but isn't the goal."


hmmm for some reason I have a obsession with aton of Videogame/anime and manga...I haven't really gotten into deep with spiderman/superman/Batman/green arrow and few others. It's only been lately I have gotten into anime/manga full blast..Videogame story on the other hand I have allways loved the story of Rogue heros and well people acting outside of the law to bring justice.....if you think thats cool...Great.
Anyway back to the subject at hand, Mab...
I have nothing to defend in what you said...if Mab wanted you dead or you were usefull dead...you are gonna die....lol (since this is fiction and not real life I shall defend MAB!)
But Mab does have the world in mind to protect so as long as you are needed..your good.
anyway I still Vote Mab/Molly/Harry love ship....lol
I think Ms.duck theory that mab is gonna die soon...might be true but I think I'll need to see the next book before I believe in that...Need to see how molly and mab act.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: matolilyfu on March 09, 2013, 03:17:08 AM

Quote from: Hollorr on March 09, 2013, 01:15:50 AM

(since this is fiction and not real life I shall defend MAB!)
But Mab does have the world in mind to protect so as long as you are needed..your good.
anyway I still Vote Mab/Molly/Harry love ship....lol

Defend away.  ;)    I see Mab's purpose and its' importance - honest.  She's intriguing in a scary way.  But, I just can't romanticize her into a misunderstood heroine.

Quote from: Hollorr on March 09, 2013, 01:15:50 AM

I think Ms.duck theory that mab is gonna die soon...might be true but I think I'll need to see the next book before I believe in that...Need to see how molly and mab act.

  I agree that Mab may not be with "us" much longer, but I have very little to base it on.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on March 09, 2013, 03:26:53 AM

Perhaps the "is Mab evil" discussion could be moved to a new thread?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Ms Duck on March 09, 2013, 06:42:41 AM

Quote from: 123456789blaaa on March 09, 2013, 03:26:53 AM

Perhaps the "is Mab evil" discussion could be moved to a new thread?

I kind of think ti should die and stay buried, frankly.

questions of good and evil are entirely subjective and very close to TT; I have been gritting my teeth on this one for the last two pages.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on March 09, 2013, 08:59:54 AM

Quote from: Ms Duck on March 09, 2013, 06:42:41 AM

I kind of think ti should die and stay buried, frankly.

questions of good and evil are entirely subjective and very close to TT; I have been gritting my teeth on this one for the last two pages.

No it is entirely objective. There is an absolute standard. Everything that harms me is evil ;D

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Paynesgrey on March 09, 2013, 11:33:26 PM

"Good and evil" aren't necessarily Touchy Topics, but when they get into things like government things definitely go pear-shaped.  They're topics which easily tray into Touchy Topics in other areas as well.  They're topics where we must be very, very careful to stay on-task and watch what examples we use, because even things like self-defense, justifiable force, individual sovereignty can stray into TT or religious areas.  So there's no ban on "Good/Evil", but we've all got to watch our examples and our tempers.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on March 10, 2013, 12:42:06 AM

Quote from: Paynesgrey on March 09, 2013, 11:33:26 PM

"Good and evil" aren't necessarily Touchy Topics, but when they get into things like government things definitely go pear-shaped.  They're topics which easily tray into Touchy Topics in other areas as well.  They're topics where we must be very, very careful to stay on-task and watch what examples we use, because even things like self-defense, justifiable force, individual sovereignty can stray into TT or religious areas.  So there's no ban on "Good/Evil", but we've all got to watch our examples and our tempers.

  Indeed it is a tightrope because the whole series itself is a battle of good and evil with lots of grey in-between.. So it is very hard not to touch touchy topics, because that is the nature of the series.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Paynesgrey on March 10, 2013, 12:46:02 AM

Yuppers.  That's why we don't want to nix threads like this, just make sure they stay clear of the real-world religious and sociopolitical topics.  It's the type of issue that brings out the value-judgments in droves, but it's what the books are about pretty much. 

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Hollorr on March 10, 2013, 01:03:54 AM

Quote from: Paynesgrey on March 10, 2013, 12:46:02 AM

Yuppers.  That's why we don't want to nix threads like this, just make sure they stay clear of the real-world religious and sociopolitical topics.  It's the type of issue that brings out the value-judgments in droves, but it's what the books are about pretty much. 

hmm in that case should I quit using videogames/Anime in my example of why I think mab is what she is?

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: Serack on September 09, 2013, 02:56:04 PM

unlock bump, I think unlocks usually only last about a day, so get yer responses in quick! :)

Edit:  Reunlocked 9/10/13

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: 123456789blaaa on September 10, 2013, 09:57:25 PM

Many thanks Serack  ;D (and if it's not too much trouble, could you or another one of the mods move the debate on Mabs evilness? It kind of obstructs the topic of this thread. Thanks  :) ).

Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 08, 2013, 03:14:41 AM

The problems with making such assumptions as you did is the side effects. If we apply your idea, it effects something else. That is the beauty of Jim's Dresden Files.

If we assume that Mab's soul could move up and down the spectrum from bright to dark during her tenure as the winter queen, you basically cheapens the corrupting power of the winter queen's mantle. Even the knight's mantle is already so powerfully corrupt as we saw in CD. The lady's mantle should be magnitudes more corruptive and Queens should be magnitudes more from the lady's.

If we assume that interactions with mortals could significantly brightens Mab's soul, and we must assume that it is significant because assumeing little will reduced the effect of moartal interactions itself, then we must assume that once upon a time Mab's soul is a lot darker than her current soul is.

If a soul that much darker than current Mab is redeemable, than the corruptive influence and the danger of total darkness becomes laughable. Even someone that is in deeper shit than Mab can be redeem, whats to worry about? And if Mab could move from a lot darker place to her current position, it will be easy for her to go fforewoard and brightens her soul even more. Why didn't she then?

You see how one assumption could open so many new can of worms?

I think you're confusing "having a soul" with "redemption". Look at Nicodemus: Jim has said he's "pure evil" and yet he totally has a soul and Free Will.

Not only that but having a soul can enable you to do horrible things. Someone like Aurora wouldn't ordinarily do something like torture to someone else because it's outside her nature. If she had a soul however, than it is possible that she would do something like that.

Some statements I want to respond to specifically:

Quote

If we assume that Mab's soul could move up and down the spectrum from bright to dark during her tenure as the winter queen, you basically cheapens the corrupting power of the winter queen's mantle.

Does it cheapen the corrupting power of the coins because you can reject them even after you've excepted them? That seems kind of demeaning to Sanya... 

I like redemption. While Mab getting a small flicker of a soul isn't redemption, it allows for the possibility of it. Not to mention Jim probably doesn't share your thoughts since he put in those strong hints with Mother Summer.

Quote

If we assume that interactions with mortals could significantly brightens Mab's soul, and we must assume that it is significant because assumeing little will reduced the effect of moartal interactions itself, then we must assume that once upon a time Mab's soul is a lot darker than her current soul is.

I think that's a whole lot of assumptions.  We don't have any real measuring scale for a soul getting brigher or dimmer. Why are we saying that Mab having feelings towards her daughter means her soul has brightened "significantly"? What does that even mean?

How does assuming less reduce the effect of mortal interactions? Why does it matter if it does? We know from Bob that mortals exchange bits of their souls. We don't have any idea how much though so...?

Mab did exactly one thing against her nature: she had feelings towards her daughter. That's it. I think it's a leap to assume that means her soul is as bright as the average persons.

Quote

If a soul that much darker than current Mab is redeemable, than the corruptive influence and the danger of total darkness becomes laughable. Even someone that is in deeper shit than Mab can be redeem, whats to worry about?

I don't think you should really use terms like "corruptive influence", "total darkness", and "redeem". Losing your soul isn't necessarily the same thing as becoming evil. Take a hypothetical half-angel Scion for example (and putting aside the weirdness of angles being made of soul. This is just an example after all). The nature of angels is good, they are the positive good forces of the Dresdenverse. The more the Scion shifts towards becoming an angel, the less able they are to commit evil acts. They still lose their soul though. 

Anyways, it's worrying because why would you want to regain your soul after you lost it (or practically speaking lost it)? In my theory Mab being able to gain a tiny ember of a soul was entirely unintentional. It also possibly took hundreds upon hundreds of years. It may be a difference of opinion but I don't find that laughable.

Title: Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Post by: vultur on September 11, 2013, 02:10:35 AM

I think a lot of confusion is coming from the fact that some people are using "lost one's soul" to mean "damned/fallen to evil" and some people are using it to mean "soul goes away because you've become a non-souled supernatural being".

It's not totally clear which way Jim is using it in the relevant WoJs, but the "mold on your conscience" bit and the reference to not needing supernatural powers to lose your soul seems to imply the former, at least for that one WoJ.