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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: arianne on March 23, 2011, 11:56:11 AM
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Okay, this is going to sound stupid, but in one of JB's books, Harry says that you can take a bunch of keys and toss them at a milk carton, and chances are the milk carton will crack.
I tried this on a milk carton.
It didn't work ???
But anyway, I heard from somewhere that keys are a really good weapon to have in a fight (street fight), but the only thing I can think of doing with them is throwing them into someone's face (and then running like mad to get away from said person ;D).
Is there some other way to use them?
The fighter concerned is a teenager of slight build, so don't expect feats of great strength or anything like that from him. In the scene I'm working on, he's fighting four people, of about the same height and weight, with only a pair of keys.
Suggestions?
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It's better if you have multiple keys on one ring. Basically you make a fist around the ring and the keys slot between your fingers. You can use it as a slashing weapon. You could also stab into vulnerable places, like the eyes or ears.
That's why a lot of women walk with their keys in their hand when they're alone on the street.
eta: keys are not a good weapon to use against four people. All they'd have to do is immobilize your arms and you're screwed.
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Okay, this is going to sound stupid, but in one of JB's books, Harry says that you can take a bunch of keys and toss them at a milk carton, and chances are the milk carton will crack.
I tried this on a milk carton.
It didn't work ???
But anyway, I heard from somewhere that keys are a really good weapon to have in a fight (street fight), but the only thing I can think of doing with them is throwing them into someone's face (and then running like mad to get away from said person ;D).
Is there some other way to use them?
The fighter concerned is a teenager of slight build, so don't expect feats of great strength or anything like that from him. In the scene I'm working on, he's fighting four people, of about the same height and weight, with only a pair of keys.
Suggestions?
Is he sparring, or is this a serious fight? If sparring, take a look at some martial arts videos on YouTube, and see how the multiple-attack training katas or free-spar sessions look. People who are attacking take turns at the defender, they broadcast their intentions clearly, and they cycle through the attacks from various points instead of all attacking at once from everywhere.
If it's a serious fight, then there are harder choices to make.
Does he HAVE to win? What does winning mean? Does he simply get away from them? Does he have to defeat them utterly? Does he simply make it so much trouble and pain to get him that they back off because no one wants to mess with the crazy person?
With all that in mind, here are a few concrete suggestions, aimed at a believable ACTUAL fight.
Suggestion 1 - have him outrun at least 2 of the 4 dudes before the actual fight. Better if he's able to outrun/outmaneuver at least 3 - maybe after running from 2 of them, he ducks into an alley which is so narrow that only one person can fit through at a time.
Instant one-on-one for the fighting, but still has the power of the multiple attack - the suspense of the chase "Oh good, he finally lost Goon 2! Oh no, Goon 1 has come around the block on a motorcycle and is gunning for him again!" and then the suspense of the actual fight "Will he have enough strength left to fight Goon 3 after running so hard? Yay! He beat Goon 3! But uh-oh, now Goon 4 is climbing over his buddy's body and coming in again - now what?"
Suggestion 2 - Find some reason for the bad guys to seriously underestimate his abilities from the start, so they are caught off-guard when he actually turns and fights. That underestimation makes fighting two opponents a little more realistic.
(Very rarely, even with trained martial artists, does one person win against multiple attackers, and when it happens, it's usually because the groups or pairs of attackers weren't really trying their utmost from the start because they outnumbered the victim. Expand and elaborate on their superiority (in their own minds) and then use that overconfidence against them.)
Suggestion 3 - Take a serious thought at the concept of berserkers. There's a reason Wolverine is named after that particular animal, and it isn't because of its SIZE. Not many people want to tangle with something crazy. That's a deep primal instinct people have to steer clear of odd behaviour.
Think of rabid animals. A rabid rat isn't that big, and rats usually run from humans. But if this rat's gone round the bend, it will attack, and that's not NORMAL for that small thing. If tiny dude is freaking out and throwing himself into the fight with everything he's got, that makes the Goons wonder; "oookaaay, what is tiny dude ON, and why is he growling at me?" These are not confidence-inspiring questions.
Whatever mechanics and improvised weapons you use then will be more believable automatically, because the SITUATION they're in is more believable. Because of the setup, people will more readily keep on following you down the "Hey, did you know keys are a kickass improvised weapon?" path, regardless of the details.
Good luck!
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It's better if you have multiple keys on one ring. Basically you make a fist around the ring and the keys slot between your fingers. You can use it as a slashing weapon. You could also stab into vulnerable places, like the eyes or ears.
That's why a lot of women walk with their keys in their hand when they're alone on the street.
eta: keys are not a good weapon to use against four people. All they'd have to do is immobilize your arms and you're screwed.
No more screwed than being keyless with one's arms immobilized, to be honest. Feet are great weapons, and the heeled shoe is a step up (no pun intended) from that - big clunky heel vs. toes, or spikey heel vs. top or instep, it's a big attention-diverter for the person doing the immobilizing. Using every available resource as a weapon is a strong step towards effective self-defense.
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Is he sparring, or is this a serious fight? If sparring, take a look at some martial arts videos on YouTube, and see how the multiple-attack training katas or free-spar sessions look. People who are attacking take turns at the defender, they broadcast their intentions clearly, and they cycle through the attacks from various points instead of all attacking at once from everywhere.
If it's a serious fight, then there are harder choices to make.
Does he HAVE to win? What does winning mean? Does he simply get away from them? Does he have to defeat them utterly? Does he simply make it so much trouble and pain to get him that they back off because no one wants to mess with the crazy person?
With all that in mind, here are a few concrete suggestions, aimed at a believable ACTUAL fight.
Suggestion 1 - have him outrun at least 2 of the 4 dudes before the actual fight. Better if he's able to outrun/outmaneuver at least 3 - maybe after running from 2 of them, he ducks into an alley which is so narrow that only one person can fit through at a time.
Instant one-on-one for the fighting, but still has the power of the multiple attack - the suspense of the chase "Oh good, he finally lost Goon 2! Oh no, Goon 1 has come around the block on a motorcycle and is gunning for him again!" and then the suspense of the actual fight "Will he have enough strength left to fight Goon 3 after running so hard? Yay! He beat Goon 3! But uh-oh, now Goon 4 is climbing over his buddy's body and coming in again - now what?"
Suggestion 2 - Find some reason for the bad guys to seriously underestimate his abilities from the start, so they are caught off-guard when he actually turns and fights. That underestimation makes fighting two opponents a little more realistic.
(Very rarely, even with trained martial artists, does one person win against multiple attackers, and when it happens, it's usually because the groups or pairs of attackers weren't really trying their utmost from the start because they outnumbered the victim. Expand and elaborate on their superiority (in their own minds) and then use that overconfidence against them.)
Suggestion 3 - Take a serious thought at the concept of berserkers. There's a reason Wolverine is named after that particular animal, and it isn't because of its SIZE. Not many people want to tangle with something crazy. That's a deep primal instinct people have to steer clear of odd behaviour.
Think of rabid animals. A rabid rat isn't that big, and rats usually run from humans. But if this rat's gone round the bend, it will attack, and that's not NORMAL for that small thing. If tiny dude is freaking out and throwing himself into the fight with everything he's got, that makes the Goons wonder; "oookaaay, what is tiny dude ON, and why is he growling at me?" These are not confidence-inspiring questions.
Whatever mechanics and improvised weapons you use then will be more believable automatically, because the SITUATION they're in is more believable. Because of the setup, people will more readily keep on following you down the "Hey, did you know keys are a kickass improvised weapon?" path, regardless of the details.
Good luck!
At this point, he's just sparring, not serious save-the-world-Harry-Dresden fighting.
I kind of like the crazy rat idea, because you're right that people get scared by unexpected reactions. Especially coming from someone who would normally be scared by the situation.
Thanks!
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My fencing Mystro held classes on how to use normal everyday items as deadly weapons. this included keys, pens, mini flashlights, scarves, hankerchifes, and even rolls of coins.
I'm sure you could find videos on these techniques on Youtube or on personal defense web sights. Keep in mind that a lot of self defense techniques are really only useful in escaping a grappling situation not an actual fist fight.
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Okay, this is going to sound stupid, but in one of JB's books, Harry says that you can take a bunch of keys and toss them at a milk carton, and chances are the milk carton will crack.
I tried this on a milk carton.
It didn't work
Two questions:
1) Was it a milk carton or a milk jug? Makes a difference.
2) How many keys were on the ring? Also makes a difference.
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Okay, this is going to sound stupid, but in one of JB's books, Harry says that you can take a bunch of keys and toss them at a milk carton, and chances are the milk carton will crack.
I tried this on a milk carton.
A paper carton could have a hole punched in it if the point of the key had enough force behind it, with "toss" doesn't suggest to me. If the milk was in a glass bottle, there are higher odds of breakage, imo.
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I'm not seeing the keys doing much good other than for a sucker jab at the eye of one attacker. Sort of trick that loses it's utility after the other 3 see it though, unless your hero has Big Damn Heroic Reflexes and Speed or somesuch.
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I'm not seeing the keys doing much good other than for a sucker jab at the eye of one attacker. Sort of trick that loses it's utility after the other 3 see it though, unless your hero has Big Damn Heroic Reflexes and Speed or somesuch.
The way I learned it was as a distraction that you could easily get lucky with, but for which the prime advantage is buying you the time while the target is flinching for you to take a shot at a knee or john thomas or something.
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Its standard self defense strategy. 1st part) shock, a Kick to the face or any fleshy part puts you attacker off balance. 2) the move, what ever other move you need to do to effect damage or get away. 3) Run away, if you have a good self defense teacher this is the ending to the self defense.
Self defense is different from combat.
On a side note, the key to my car is about 2 inches long, locked tightly in my hand between fingers it would do a lot of damage at the head/throat area. Even crippling damage to any joint area.
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*Decides just to hang his keys from his Mossberg JIC.*
"That? That's a Zombie Opener, officer. You want one? I've got some spares...*
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*Decides just to hang his keys from his Mossberg JIC.*
"That? That's a Zombie Opener, officer.*
And here's a Swiss Army Gun:
(http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/rpc_rocket_propelled_chainsaw.jpg)
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I so want one....!!!! :o
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I want two for my ZAV
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Two questions:
1) Was it a milk carton or a milk jug? Makes a difference.
2) How many keys were on the ring? Also makes a difference.
1) It was a milk carton. Not a very thick milk carton either.
2) Perhaps six or seven--not heavy keys, just normal office keys.
Somehow it's depressing to realize that 30 seconds of badly-shot-cell-phone video of people fighting on the street can take pages and pages of description to convey...and even then there willl be readers who'll take the cell phone vid over your blood and sweat :'(
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In a serious fight LL had the best advice. Run and hope you can catch them one at a time. Keys are going to be most effective to take out one fighter before they realise that you are using them or to use as a distraction. If they are on a chain ( common with bike or motorcycle riders as well as janitors and such) they can be swung like a mini spiked flail at someone's eyes or face and do some damage although again this is a trick that you will probably only get away with once.
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1) It was a milk carton. Not a very thick milk carton either.
2) Perhaps six or seven--not heavy keys, just normal office keys.
Somehow it's depressing to realize that 30 seconds of badly-shot-cell-phone video of people fighting on the street can take pages and pages of description to convey...and even then there willl be readers who'll take the cell phone vid over your blood and sweat :'(
I tried the same thing about 30 years ago. I finally realized, after experiencing the same non-event that you saw, that in order for it to be more accurate, the carton must be backed up against something unmoving in order to replicate the conditions of the human face (because the head doesn't just skitter off at the slightest contact). I would've done it with milk in the carton, but my mother would've killed me. :D And yeah, it did work. Nothing spectacular, just a few little holes - which would've been nasty in the case of eyelids and eyes.
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The rocket propelled chainsaw is AWESOME.
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It's easier to get a good swing if you use the whole keyboard.
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Here's something to think about.....
I have my keys on a laynard. In part because I can hang them around my neck if I need to, but in a life or death case, it could become an improvised flail. It does have an advange in reach, plus the ability to throw them on someone face, then yank back and repeat the process. Moight be really useful if there a dozen or so keys to give it some heft.
Craig
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So took Karate for awhile -- from the can't breath you can't fight kind of guy, not Mr. Miagi. All the moves were absolutely ruthless and brutal -- one action designed to incapacitate one person -- throat, knees, groin.
Anyway, the key to fighting more than one (assuming they have no firearms, if so forget it) is to stay on the "outside" of the fight and make the incapacitated obstacles.
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I've been a martial arts instructor for about 8 years now, and have studied a pretty large range of styles from modern combatives to more traditional Eastern styles. I have to agree with Agravaine's post about the key to fighting multiple opponents is to use them as obstacles. I am going to assume this is some type of self defense situation, because keys aren't a very good sparring weapon?
How I would handle a situation like that, is first figure out where the escape route would be. Try to move that direction as much as possible, while making certain none of the opponents get between me and that path. Throw the keys underhanded/sidearm (almost like throwing a frisbee) at the persons face/neck area while rushing forward. If it hits, it hurts, and may cut, it's not going to "take someone out" but its a very good distraction. While rushing in try to get the person you distracted in a hold with their head lower than you, but still standing, so that you can move them around keeping the person trapped in between you and the other people. While doing this, throw knees and punches to the persons torso area, and then shove them into the next closest person and run towards the escape route you figured out earlier screaming "Take him to the Hospital!". People will stop to check out their friend, whether they actually need to get medical attention or not.
The main focus is to keep them from working together until the point that their cooperation is no longer focused on you.
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Plenty of others have chimed in with the more generic martial artist/self defense answers to fighting multiple opponents, so Im not going to bother adding to that.
With regards to using keys in a fight. Keys are useful in one of 3 ways:
-Spiked fist - pinch the keys between your fingers while gripping something sturdy (flashlight, solid keychain, etc) in your fist as a support. This is basically a ripping version of a Brass knuckle. Makes punches more damaging esp. crosses, hooks, and other attacks with a sideways element tot he motion to allow of ripping/raking of exposed flesh. Not very useful vs heavy clothing.
-Thrown Weapon - Most common, but a one-off. Not going to cause heavy damage unless you really get a powerfull throw. If the guy is charging you and you have time for a fastball to the face, could be devestating. But most likely its main use will be as a distraction. Get them to flich away from something coming at their face, and you get time to either close and fight or break and run.
-Flail - If you can put the keys on a string, a lanyard, in a sock, etc it becomes a fairly effective swinging weapon; decent mass, sharp surfaces, controllable length etc. Given no combat training, 4-1 odds, and no other weapon at hand, this would be my choice of weapon if for no other reason than it would be enough of a threat to psychologically hold off some of the attackers enough for you to keep them form digpiling you.
If its not a serious throw-down, hospitalize-whomever-you-can sort of fight don't bother bringing them in as more than a distraction. Only damage to some of the more fragile and debilitating human parts (like eyes) are going to drop somebody long enough to make it worth while. The average person without training should probably pick up a stick, pipe, or other base clubbing instrument
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__pdvZ--1LHk/TKAr9J3EPJI/AAAAAAAAAeU/LS8Upn22nxE/s320/big.jpg)
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I'm imagining what a guy swinging a bunch of keys would look like in a fight...and it looks kind of tough and I'm actually liking it! ;D
Of course, it's not as cool as, say, throwing a fireball (nudge nudge Harry Dresden), but hey, whatever you've got...
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Addressing targets- Martial arts generally teaches one to disable an opponent, by and large, and not kill them outright (not including the Sambo/Krav Maga crowd here, who are very happy to inflict lethal damage) as it is often taught from a defensive point of view. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I am a happy student of Aikido because it gives me the less-lethal options for taking down an opponent. However, I work overseas a lot where kind-and-fluffy gets you killed, thus I also study Krav for the opposite reason, and you pick up some VERY nasty, brutal and incapacitating/lethal techniques. Here's some key pointers born of that when it comes to targets-
1) Neck: While it might seem to be a choice target, the neck is surprisingly resilient and hard to find a vital spot with a small puncture-based weapon. I've seen an operator shot through-and-through in the neck by a 7.62x39 round, and the SOB was still up and kicking, trying to return fire. Keys are much more blunt than knives and such, and might not even get through the skin. There are many layers to the skin and sub-skin structures- dermis, sub-dermis, cutaneous (fat-tissue) and subcutaneous membranes- before you even get to the muscle and primary blood vessels. The chances of getting through all of that and hitting something vital- carotid, jugular, trachea, etc.- make it a difficult target to ensure lethality or incapacitation on, and that's not even taking into account reflexive defensive tucking and blocking.
2) Eyes: Excellent target, if a bit hard to hit. Gripping the keys in the fist where they stick out like punch-daggers, you can strike the eyes with moderate success. Despite being hard to hit due to size and reflexive defenses on the part of the opponent, it is a priority target due to being a fight-ender. Most people will desperately want to be somewhere else when their eye is put out. It's a psychological blow as much- if not more than- a physical one, as the eye does not repair itself to usefulness again and humans reflexively freak the hell out when they lose one.
3) Groin: Due to jeans and other clothing, the groin is a bad target for something as blunt as keys. Knives, spikes, 16 penny nails, etc. are all viable since they can punch through the clothing, but keys are generally too blunt. However, if clothing is not an issue for whatever reason, the groin on a male is a prime target. Behind the... danglies, shall we say, is a knot of blood vessels, including high-volume arteries that feed into the femoral. Puncture these, and your target is toast. There are no pressure points or tourniquet application points to stem the arterial bloodflow in that area, and your target will bleed out into unconsciousness in under a minute.
4) Hands: Something people really don't think about with key-fighting is the hands. Rap a ring of keys across the knuckles, and it stings. Stab keys into the hand from the top, and you could incapacitate them.
just a few items for thought :)
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^ ^ Thank you for the point-by-point assassin lesson, B!!!! ^ ^ 8)
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The thing (for me), is that I think in real life when most people fight, it's kind of like a blur of events, and you never really remember much when it's over. Some people talk about how they have a laserlike focus in the moment of the fight, but I was wondering how possible that was?
Humans kind of need to absorb actions, and then mull it over for a bit before performing counteractions--exceptions being like when you touch a hot pot and your hand jumps back without your having to think about it. But that's more about removing yourself from harm, and less about attacking someone, which does require a certain amount of brain work.
And yes, very neatly put "How to kill someone 101", Breandan!! ;D
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Some people talk about how they have a laserlike focus in the moment of the fight, but I was wondering how possible that was?
Right, so I've never had formal training in how to hurt someone (unless you count five years of ballet, which at least made me more coordinated). But when I got into fights it was less that I was thinking of what to do than that I was seeing, if that makes sense. And that state of semi-thinking upped my reaction time a lot.
In a fight, once it became clear that "oh shit, I'm in trouble," I started to notice things I didn't really pay attention to normally. Like the position of the other person's hands, where they were looking, if they were bigger than me, how close the walls were, etc. It wasn't that I was sitting back and pondering, "hm, should I kick his right shin or his left?" I was just suddenly more aware of my physical situation and with that awareness some actions I could take became obvious.
I think that's what the whole 'laser focus' phenomenon is - the sudden attention to previously extraneous information that is abruptly Very Very Important. It's not that you're cataloging all the details of your attacker and the environment on the spot. You already knew they were there. You just filtered them out because they weren't important. As soon as you become aware of those details, you (hopefully) become more sensitive to smaller changes, such as if your attacker shifts his weight to kick or throw a punch.
And once all that happens (thanks, adrenaline!) you really don't need to mull over your potential actions. Just go for the weak spots and get the hell out if you can.
(I'm making all this sound really wordy and pretentious, but it's the only way I can explain it. sorry! :'()
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Adrenaline does weird things to consciousness; intense focus is just one of the possible reactions. Much as is the rabbitlike freeze. Some people are (go 'way, Lady Gaga) just born that way. But heavy training can shift that automatic reaction.
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Surprise can also be a huge factor in the whole focus thing.
Quite awhile back I posted that I've had four serious encounters with dangerous criminals.
In my case, two were complete surprises, and are pretty blurry. Best summed up with "And then it was over!"
The other two were not really true surprises, and are quite clearly recalled.