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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on June 13, 2018, 05:46:30 AM
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I get the impression from the books that the Old Ones are not locked out with the Outsiders. Is that wrong or what? If they aren't locked out the same as the Outsiders, why is that? I'm curious about the relationship they have....
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I get the impression from the books that the Old Ones are not locked out with the Outsiders. Is that wrong or what? If they aren't locked out the same as the Outsiders, why is that? I'm curious about the relationship they have....
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the only real info we have on them comes from Harry earlier in the series, and Carlos in Cold Case. Harry implied that the Outsiders were servants of the Old Ones, or something along those lines. Or at least that the Walkers were knights of their kind. Carlos seems to think they're one and the same, and that the Old Ones are just who happen to be trapped on Earth instead of Outside.
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According to lovecraft the family tree would go like this
https://www.yog-sothoth.com/wiki/index.php/Azathoth_Family_Tree
https://i.imgur.com/bmwHo.jpg
Exploring the Cthulhu Mythos Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-aprpylMuCdnaFEYwTzAobqUZGxS1D5p
timeline
https://www.yog-sothoth.com/wiki/index.php/Cthulhu_Mythos_Timeline
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AFAIK the Old Ones are a type or group of Outsiders, and as far as Outsiders in the DV go they are all either Locked outside the Outer Gates and trying to break/sneak back in, or else are Imprisoned somewhere on Earth. The imprisoned ones are also called Sleepers, and would include the ever-famous Cthulu.
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AFAIK the Old Ones are a type or group of Outsiders, and as far as Outsiders in the DV go they are all either Locked outside the Outer Gates and trying to break/sneak back in, or else are Imprisoned somewhere on Earth. The imprisoned ones are also called Sleepers, and would include the ever-famous Cthulu.
DR holds the sleepers to be awoke according to Maeve's gleeful villainy plan spill.... I could see them being the Old Ones. As they actually do exist in reality, but are just forced out by, more or less, a wormhole/pocketdimension existence.
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DR holds the sleepers to be awoke according to Maeve's gleeful villainy plan spill.... I could see them being the Old Ones. As they actually do exist in reality, but are just forced out by, more or less, a wormhole/pocketdimension existence.
Theres also the more traditional Giant Monster under the Sea type of Sleeper, according the Carlos in Cold Case, not just the ones in DR
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Theres also the more traditional Giant Monster under the Sea type of Sleeper, according the Carlos in Cold Case, not just the ones in DR
It's MASSIVELY implied (as I read it) that the Sleeper Carlos mentions is supposed to be Cthulhu, specifically.
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It's MASSIVELY implied (as I read it) that the Sleeper Carlos mentions is supposed to be Cthulhu, specifically.
Agreed, though I did think that Sleepers was mentioned in the plural, and my vague understanding of Lovecraftian mythos is that there were more than just him down there?
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More on the Nature of Cthulhu and its Spawn
https://lovecraftianscience.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/more-on-the-nature-of-cthulhu-and-its-spawn/
In Lovecraft’s original “family tree of the Old Ones” the only cited offspring of Cthulhu is Shaurash-ho and based on the lineage, this offspring was created through asexual reproduction. However, according to Carter’s research into the Ponape Scriptures there was a sexual union, genetic or otherwise, between Cthulhu and an entity named Idh-Yaa. This sexual union occurred on, in or around Xoth, a green star located in the constellation of Taurus. In fact Cthulhu and its Spawn are said to have originated from Xoth. Again, this information is provided in the Ponape Scriptures as cited by Carter and not in the Black Book, which was cited by Lovecraft.
The Architecture of R’lyeh
https://lovecraftianscience.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/the-architecture-of-rlyeh/
https://lovecraftianscience.wordpress.com/tag/rlyeh/
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Walkers, outsiders, old ones and sleepers are what demonreach was built to truly contain. From the sound of it, the oblivion war will either wake the sleepers or even let in the bad guys from beyond the gate. I could see the prison then being used to contain those entities so no longer a threat.
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Walkers, outsiders, old ones and sleepers are what demonreach was built to truly contain. From the sound of it, the oblivion war will either wake the sleepers or even let in the bad guys from beyond the gate. I could see the prison then being used to contain those entities so no longer a threat.
Where do you get that part? By all accounts it's either uninvolved with the Outsider side of things or else would be doing the exact opposite.
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Where do you get that part? By all accounts it's either uninvolved with the Outsider side of things or else would be doing the exact opposite.
Now, I've never thought it was entirely uninvolved... I see it as these Old Gods who are slowly being phased out of reality attempting to find new purchase here under a new identity. They are dead but as long as they are not forgotten entirely they can attempt a breach under new identity and power, same Old consciousness though.
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Now, I've never thought it was entirely uninvolved... I see it as these Old Gods who are slowly being phased out of reality attempting to find new purchase here under a new identity. They are dead but as long as they are not forgotten entirely they can attempt a breach under new identity and power, same Old consciousness though.
So how then does that Oblivion War actually benefit their efforts to get back in, or wake them? If they are affected by threat of Oblivion* then it would be a thing actively working to prevent their return, not facilitate it.
*The other possibility being that the Oblivion War only targets creatures native to the NeverNever who still have to play by the rules, but not true Outsiders that seem equally willing to just smash there way in as to be Known/Invited by the inside residents.
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So how then does that Oblivion War actually benefit their efforts to get back in, or wake them? If they are affected by threat of Oblivion* then it would be a thing actively working to prevent their return, not facilitate it.
exactly though, I think the only thing that can truly prevent their return is total Oblivion. The Oblivion war was more or less orchestrated by the Original Merlin if he's responsible for the Archive and therefore her venators. The war was started by us.
*The other possibility being that the Oblivion War only targets creatures native to the NeverNever who still have to play by the rules, but not true Outsiders that seem equally willing to just smash there way in as to be Known/Invited by the inside residents.
Not sure why that would be? An you notice, all Outsiders are getting in specifically by invitation via mortal, even if that's a subconscious invitation to slowly replace them. They aren't smashing anything at this point btw, willing though they may be, they so far just can't. Cosmic Law mayhaps...
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While demonreach is an epic prison, I have to think there is an additional purpose for the system.
Those epic beings currently contained in the world would be targets to freed. While bad, they could then be sent into the Well. For more secure imprisonment, enduring less influence on the world.
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exactly though, I think the only thing that can truly prevent their return is total Oblivion. The Oblivion war was more or less orchestrated by the Original Merlin if he's responsible for the Archive and therefore her venators. The war was started by us.
Ah, ok, that makes way more sense than what you first said, which was that the Oblivion War would somewhat LEAD to the Outsiders return/awakening as opposed to preventing it.
Not sure why that would be? An you notice, all Outsiders are getting in specifically by invitation via mortal, even if that's a subconscious invitation to slowly replace them. They aren't smashing anything at this point btw, willing though they may be, they so far just can't. Cosmic Law mayhaps...
As the theory goes: The Oblivion War works only on the premise that the targeted Creatures REQUIRE a connection to Mortal awareness in order to manifest in the Mortal World, or else they have no grip on the reality and are left floating in the distant unconnected reaches of the NN. This makes fine sense for all the NN demons etc that keep being mentioned as having varying degrees of interest in the Mortal World. It makes less sense in the case of the Outsiders because a)Outside and Oblivion are different things, and B) Outsiders dont /require/ a connection to Mortal Awareness since they are currently attempting to get in via other means. The fact that there is a constant conflict at the Outer Gates being waged unknown to mortal race would strongly indicate that they do not have the same requirement for Mortal Awareness that NN natives do. So the theory goes, anyway.
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Ah, ok, that makes way more sense than what you first said, which was that the Oblivion War would somewhat LEAD to the Outsiders return/awakening as opposed to preventing it.
As the theory goes: The Oblivion War works only on the premise that the targeted Creatures REQUIRE a connection to Mortal awareness in order to manifest in the Mortal World, or else they have no grip on the reality and are left floating in the distant unconnected reaches of the NN. This makes fine sense for all the NN demons etc that keep being mentioned as having varying degrees of interest in the Mortal World. It makes less sense in the case of the Outsiders because a)Outside and Oblivion are different things, and B) Outsiders dont /require/ a connection to Mortal Awareness since they are currently attempting to get in via other means. The fact that there is a constant conflict at the Outer Gates being waged unknown to mortal race would strongly indicate that they do not have the same requirement for Mortal Awareness that NN natives do. So the theory goes, anyway.
Ah... let me attempt to smash this one. Outsiders... look at Fearbringer, the idea behind him has not, and maybe cannot be forgotten by humans until humans no longer have a concept of fear, so, fear will always have a representation in reality. The same thing with Hwwbh, he's actually a psychological part of humanity,(i'd have to find the post on the jbit that has the right link to a really good article on it) the 'demon' you can't quite look at, that which stalks us all, Death.
To be expelled from reality in my opinion simply means you have no creation oomph, no payment on Rent or Purchase in the positive. Maybe even YOU died, even if your idea did not, in which case, as I suspect, Outsiders are the versions of Idea's/god avatars who died, maybe even the originals, and those who were intentionally left out of the little playground our God made. BUT, whom are not forgotten, whom we actually put in our own mythology for their deaths, who we also remember are not exactly all good with reality or humanity, Some of which only existed perhaps before reality truly began.
Look next at the Lord of Slowest Terror, Time, Chronos, whatever you wanna call him. His being dead/torn apart is kinda necessary for reality because of space-time. That's one of the clue's left for us, Outsiders get in, everything Stops. Because Time is no longer in pieces?
So this could also explain, in part, why the Outsiders look different trying to get back into any specific reality but are at the upper Echelon's all connected, they are from before the concept of reality, and we, Humanity, have had those concepts of before existence for quite awhile too, we just have names and identities attached to them. But if those identities are already dead but not forgotten? Outsiders and the need for Oblivion wars...
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Ah... let me attempt to smash this one. Outsiders... look at Fearbringer, the idea behind him has not, and maybe cannot be forgotten by humans until humans no longer have a concept of fear, so, fear will always have a representation in reality. The same thing with Hwwbh, he's actually a psychological part of humanity,(i'd have to find the post on the jbit that has the right link to a really good article on it) the 'demon' you can't quite look at, that which stalks us all, Death.
To be expelled from reality in my opinion simply means you have no creation oomph, no payment on Rent or Purchase in the positive. Maybe even YOU died, even if your idea did not, in which case, as I suspect, Outsiders are the versions of Idea's/god avatars who died, maybe even the originals, and those who were intentionally left out of the little playground our God made. BUT, whom are not forgotten, whom we actually put in our own mythology for their deaths, who we also remember are not exactly all good with reality or humanity, Some of which only existed perhaps before reality truly began.
Look next at the Lord of Slowest Terror, Time, Chronos, whatever you wanna call him. His being dead/torn apart is kinda necessary for reality because of space-time. That's one of the clue's left for us, Outsiders get in, everything Stops. Because Time is no longer in pieces?
So this could also explain, in part, why the Outsiders look different trying to get back into any specific reality but are at the upper Echelon's all connected, they are from before the concept of reality, and we, Humanity, have had those concepts of before existence for quite awhile too, we just have names and identities attached to them. But if those identities are already dead but not forgotten? Outsiders and the need for Oblivion wars...
That could work, it doesnt contract anything we know as fact, but I also see almost no in-world support for it.
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That could work, it doesnt contract anything we know as fact, but I also see almost no in-world support for it.
Matter of deduction, look for Lachesis and you find her in the power of wizards and wizardry, Look for Nemesis the Greek Goddess whom apparently hunts all fae, or all reality depending on context, and you find her scales being balanced by the courts and her aspect of Judgement taken by Mab when needed... So parts of her exist in the courts lending credence to her being taken by the stone table, which then lends it to the idea above that Dead but not forgotten matters(dude, you know Mexican mythos or the day of the dead/land of the remembered?) Let's see, Chronos is also known for being dead, and he's apparently the captain in charge of hwwbh being the slowest terror humans will ever know and all. I could make more connections but really, Nemesis should really be enough.
Why she's not part of reality even makes sense, she was the chooser of fate, to defy fate, to make a choice in the face of it is Hubris in the face of the Gods and worthy of destruction... and Marcone showed exactly that making a free will choice is Hubris to fate based beings, and then in direct contention with TWG's own designs for creation. Lachesis... she chose not only for herself but for the Gods themselves, something hinted at in Mortal Magic's ability to screw with the fae Alloy and let Nemesis find purchase. They took her power to choose and gave it to the Druids, Celtic magic users whom were subsequently wiped out by Rome but could whip up firestorms and other fantastic things... BUT could NOT effect fate..(Irish based mythos... evolved into fae too) Now Wizards can though. The took her power and rebalanced it in the human equation, and the only thing that makes it viable is not breaking the Laws designed to keep free will intact. Any breaking of these laws would, per PG, tend to make you a mirror for Nemesis herself then. And using it to cause fear while taking free will would sync you up pretty nicely to Fearbringer wouldn't it? hence the goal of N in PG, and Mab's counter move by having the fetch eat up Molly's N-fected soul parts.